Latest / Chris Thrall's Bought the T-Shirt Podcast / From Marine To Monk To Money Master | Doug Lynam

Transcript

From Marine To Monk To Money Master | Doug Lynam · Chris Thrall's Bought the T-Shirt Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hello friends, I'm your host, Christ Throuw.
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: I'm a former Ruleries commando.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: I've adventured for better and sometimes worse, across eighty countries
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: on all seven continents. Welcome to the Port the t
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Shirt podcast.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Doug Simplify brother, you as well, Brother, What a fascinating story.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: I'm getting quite a lot of you know, podcast suggestions
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: sent to me, and when I saw yours, I thought,
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: oh gosh, yes, this is this is all the areas
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: that kind of interested interest me. The former Marine is
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: something we share in common. I live. I say, it's
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: pretty much near to a monk now as I think
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: it's possibly possible to do whilest still being in societ
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: and using all the technology. Obviously the money management I
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: could probably do do with a bit of your your
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: advice there, And I bet I'm not the first person
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: to have said that to you. So can we should?
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: We just take it from the beginning? Where where did
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: you grow up? And what made you join the join
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: the Marine Corps.
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's a long story, so I'll kind of
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: just start from the beginning and interrupt me where you
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: want to dive deeper. I'll give you the quick elevator pitch.
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: But basically I grew up outside of Chicago, Illinois, a
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: town called Naperville, Suburbia. I grew up in a fairly
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: affluent family. My dad was a CEO for an oil company,
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: and but I grew up in a family that weaponized
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: money a lot. Where it was everything was so loveless,
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: sort of conditional. It's like, Okay, you do what we
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: want you to do, you get the toys, and if
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: you don't, you don't. And then so there's a lot
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: of emotional manipulation going on, especially after my parents divorced.
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: They really use money as a tool to kind of
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: get back at each other. And uh and I, my
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: brothers and I all were be in just very different ways,
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: and we all kind of rebelled against our parents, but
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: we also rebelled against each other. And so my older
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: brother ran off. We all ended up, and we're basically
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: taking it eventually taking a vow poverty. My older brother
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: ran off and joined a grunge band, a moderately successful
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: grunge band in Seattle. I have a twin brother, fraternal twin.
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: He went off and became a homesteader in upstate Vermont
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: and joined the Abenaki tribe up there, and then I
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: was like, Okay, how am I going to rebel? So
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: I can't do the hippie thing. My twins got that covered.
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: I can't do the grunge metal thing. My brother's got
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: that covered. So like, well, well, how do I rebel?
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: What's what's a sense of purpose and meaning? And I
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: was just trying to try to press my father. I
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: was trying to prove to him I was a manly
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: man who could do manly things. It kind of was
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: the runt of the family. I wanted to prove my
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: prove myself. So I was I was studying mathematics and
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: philosophy college, and I kind of got tired of the
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: heady academic life and I said, let's try something different,
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: and let's try the Raine Corps. And so I had
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: some friends joined the Marines, and I was hanging out
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: with that crowd a lot in college, and I just
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: it captivated me, and so I gave it a shot,
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: and I went to Officer Candidate School with the Marine
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: Corps and I graduated at the top of my class
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: from OCS. But the Marines here in the US are
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: this funky program for officers where it's it's basically a
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: free program and they didn't pay for college, so their
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: their philosophies. You can leave at any time that you know,
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: if you don't want to be there, you don't have
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: to stick around. But I finished my training between my
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: sophomore and junior year of college, but then they sent
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: me back to finish my senior year before I get
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: pinned to get my bars and I had to have
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: my college degree. So this weird gap year off like
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: between finishing my training and like trying to actually go
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: active duty. And so then I kind of found a
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: spiritual mentor and who made me read every book on
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: the history of the Vietnam War, which captivated me, and
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: I thought, well, we'll never do that again, right We
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: learned our lesson, of course, but maybe not. There's a
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: little voice in the back of my head that was
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: like kind of nagging at me about it. And I
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: also at that point realized that maybe unresolved anger issues
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: and high explosives weren't a good combination for a career choice.
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: Although I love my time in the Marines, and so
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: I actually turned down my commission. I did not go
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: active duty, and I went and joined the monastery instead,
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: we're ont of college. I went and became a Benedictine monk,
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: which I did for twenty years. And I'm kind of
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: grateful because I would have absolutely been shipped off to
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: Afghanistan and Iraq for sure, because that conflict erupted about
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: it a year later and so so then I was
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: in the monastery for twenty years and probably and one
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: of the reasons was basically trying to you know, and
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: what I was looking for God. I was looking for
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: the meaning of life. I didn't have. I didn't grow
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: up with any faith or any real spiritual grounding in
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: any sense. So I kind of joined the monastery to
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: find God, to find the meaning of life, to try
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: to figure if I was going to try to answer
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: these questions. What's a better place to do it than
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: a monastery. So I gave a shot, and I really
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: enjoyed it. Actually parts of it were great, parts of
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: it not so much. But turns out what I discovered
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: is I was very a voidant around money, just because
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: of the so of the childhood, the woundings that I had
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: go around all the I would just say, money Trump,
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: We all have money, Trump. I think to some extent
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: most of us do, but mine caused me to have
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: a very up say, avoidant relationship to money, where I
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: pushed it away and didn't want to deal with it.
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: And then I found myself in a monastery where everybody
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: hated dealing with money and nobody wanted to deal with it,
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: and I guess we kind of took the vial poverty
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: a little too seriously. And then at one point, about
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: three years in, the monastery went bankrupt, so somebody had
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: to figure out this. And I was the youngest monk
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: by probably thirty years at that point, and so I
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: was so the grunt coming in, and I was like,
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: you know, yeah, throw me in, so whatever, I'll try
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: to figure out. Obviously, the other brothers couldn't do it.
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: They'd been doing it for years and decades and mismanaged
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: it completely, and so I figured, well, I couldn't do
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: a worse job, and so I then went to a
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: bookstore and grabbed every book on personal finance I could
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: get my hands on and read them. And took me
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: a few years to really pull the community out of
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: its financial hole. But did that, and I was in
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: a teaching order, so it wasn't as it wasn't a
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: cloistered community. We had our own monastery that was cloistered,
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: but we weren't. We weren't hermits, let's put it that way,
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: which I probably would have enjoyed more, but I did.
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: I do. My real passion is teaching, actually, and so
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: I was teaching. I was the head of the mathematics
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: department at a private school, but at prestigious private school
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: here in Santa Fe at the time, and I thought, well,
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: I don't want I wish someone had taught me about
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: money as a kid. I wish my parents had quite
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: a bit, but they never talked about it like money
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: was like you can talk about sex more easily could
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: talk about money. It was just one of those taboo topics.
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: And so, despite the fact my mom was a CPA
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: my dad was an executive, I went into the world
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: with no financial skills whatsoever. And I thought, well, I
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: should probably like to fix that for the next generation
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: to the extent that I can. And so I started
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: offering econ and personal finance courses at the school I
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: was teaching, and did that for many, many years, probably
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: about fifteen years, and loved it. And then you know,
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: the story gets a little complicated, but the punchline is
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: basically I discovered that teacher retirement for a last project.
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: One day for the school, I opened up the school
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: retirement plan to show the kids how it worked, just
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: kind of kicked the tires and given us some practical
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: I always liked to do practical, hands on things in
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: the classroom, and when we did that one day, I
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: opened it up and realized it was a complete train wreck,
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: Like there was no fiduciary oversight, if you know what
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: that means. There was poor fees, high fees, poor performance.
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  Speaker 3: It was just the plan that had been a drift
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: for decades. It just hadn't been looked at and I
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: wasn't pay an attention to it, and so it was
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: really off track. And then I went looking for a
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: better company to do a better job and found out
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: that there weren't really any and that this was an
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: endemic problem across the country, that teacher retirement plans for
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: nonprofits and teachers across the country are an absolute mess.
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: And so by some I had this bizarre idea which
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: was absolutely that shit crazy. But I built my own
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: investment advisory firm from inside the monastery to build these
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: better retirement plans for teachers, and I was tired that point.
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: It was this point is after twenty years of the monastery,
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: I was kind of burnt down on it. The community
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: was done. It was we weren't getting any members. It was
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: it was good Monasters are closing left and right across
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: the world, particularly in the US, because there's nobody new
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: coming in, and so at at some point it becomes
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: more of a hospice care situation than a real monastic situation.
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  Speaker 3: And so I realized that this was, this was a
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: dying community, and so I needed to and still being
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: thirty years younger than the other brothers, like I'm not
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: going to be the last one standing, you know, would
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: be the last one to turn the lights off. That
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: doesn't sound like a good game plan. So I, uh,
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: so I left. I took my little investment firm and
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: I merge it with a much larger company here in
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: Santa Fe called long View Asset Management, where I eventually
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: became partner and was managing about two hundred and fifty
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: helping co manage about two and fifty million in assets.
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: And yeah, and then by the weird, weird, weird stroke
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: of luck, right when I when I left the monastery
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: and joined this other firm. The New York Times did
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: a six month expose, one article a month for six
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: months exposing all the problems and teaching retirement plans across
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: the country, which was exactly the thing that I had
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: found and was built my company designing to fix. And
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: that was just a weird stroke of just good luck
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: and good timing, whatever you want to call it. And
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: so I reached out to the a guy named ron
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: Leeber who writes the financial column for the New York Times,
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: and I reached out to him on Facebook and just said, Hey,
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: love what you guys are doing. Blah blah blah, here's
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: what I'm doing. I'm seeing the same things you're seeing.
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: Just keep up the good work whatever. And then they
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: heard my story and they got excited and called me
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: and said, hey, you're a monk who's now doing this
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: thing or whatever, and they flew a reporter out to
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: Santa Fe and we spent a full day together and
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: they did a beautiful article that was on the front
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: page of The New York Times about me and my
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: business and what I was doing, and that just kind
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: of sent me. That went viral, and it really launched
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: my career and sent me and it got me a
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: two book deal from HarperCollins, which my second book is
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: coming out in about two weeks and brings us up
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: to day, up to speed.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Doug, I'm fascinated to come on and talk and move
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: on to the money stuff. But I've got a few
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: questions if I may, can you I mean, you mentioned
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: that the monastery was kind of like streamlining or thinning down.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, is that kind of inevitable? People are just
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: I don't think most people understand what spirit and divinity is.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: And we've got all of these kind of it's just
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: call them what they are, evil influences, pushing young people
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: away from themselves really and into the pornography and the
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: you know, it's all about identity and how I look
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: and this this kind of thing. Would you say that
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: that could have been a factor.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: I think it's part of it. I think a lot
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: of it is. I think monasticism is based on I
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: think celibacy is a hard thing for a lot of
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: people to even consider as a as a lifestyle choice.
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: So I think that automatically limits the pool of applicants
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: these days. And I think as as I could I
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: could maybe be a little less generous about it, I
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: would say, I think what I've noticed in a lot
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: of the older monks, a lot of them were people
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: who maybe struggled with their identity and it wasn't okay
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: to be gay, or wasn't okay to be whatever they were,
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: and so they would go to a monastery to hide.
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: And and we saw a lot of that in the
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: priesthood scandal. We saw that and people who thought, well,
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: I'm going to go take a holy vow and that's
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: going to solve these problems, and it doesn't. You know,
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: it's just you know, wherever you go, you take yourself
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: with you. So I think that's a factor. Now that
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: people have more options in terms of like, Okay, if
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: this is your lifestyle preference, you can do that. You
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: don't have to hide, which is which is what some
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: monks did. I've seen now not maybe a third maybe,
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: so that population is sort of gone from the from
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: the pool. And then you probably lost another third because
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: people are just not that interested in the celibate life.
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: And then you're probably losing another little bit because people
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: aren't that interested in the spiritual life. And so we
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: put that together and it's just the you know, some
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: some monsters are doing well. There's a couple of big
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: ones that but they tend to be you know, the
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: people who in very orthodox communities seem to be doing okay.
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: But the more open the monastery is, the less appeal
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: it seems they have to. Certain people say, well, if
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: you've heard that open, then why why bother Like it's
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: sort of like not that they're open sexually necessarily, but open.
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: It doesn't I think people are not so relatively interested
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: in pre formulated answers like here's and so, not that
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: the monastery is always that haveter better. The monaster is
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: a lot like families. You know, every as Tolstoy said,
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: you know, every family is unique but has different problems, right,
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: and so it's hard it's hard to say like this
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: is what's wrong with monastism across the board. But they
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: in the US it's certainly a dying a dying breed,
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: to be sure, and the reasons for that are cultural, historical, generational.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: But there's a lot of factors of coming in all
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: at once that make it, you know, less less appealing
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: to people.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you could say all families are uniquely problematic so
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: don't tell me because this is all stuff I'm I
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: kind of ah, I don't want to tell my story
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: too much, but you know, I'm trying to get better
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: at life the more I go on. Yeah, if you
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: said words like divine and spirit to me twenty years ago, definitely,
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: Definitely when I was in you know, serving in the
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: armed forces, I would literally have looked at like like
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: you were some kind of weirdo and get out of
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: my way. You know, I'm busy. I've got to go
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: and bomb some people or some other utterly deluded you know,
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: narrative that somebody else had put into my head. So
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: but a lot of these things like I'm coming too
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: late in life. I've now learned that the art of
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: you know, how can I say, not throwing it all
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: about sexually? Actually, you know, saving that essence as it's
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: referred to in spirituality is like you you it's it's
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: it's like divine energy that you shouldn't be squandering. And
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: the the theory there or the the you know, the
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: modern theory is that this is why everyone's subjected to
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: this constant sexualization. And you know the Hollywood have their
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: massive porn industry, is they want people to be squandering
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: their you know, their internal essence all over the place
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: and then you know, not realizing why, why, why their
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: life perhaps isn't going the way that they want it to.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: Is is this the same thing that the Benedictine's practice
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: or do they just do it as a you know,
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: like the Marines do things to make you learn.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: Well, it's a bit of both. It's probably a discipline
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: and it's probably a spiritual but again it's going to
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: depend on the individual. Like you can be in the
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: same monastery with the whole bunch of brothers, just so it
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: could be you could be in a squad or a
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: platoon of Marines and everyone's there for different reasons. And
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: so to say this is why everyone's doing it is
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: a little tricky, but there are some similar similarities and patterns,
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: and I would say that part of it is, yeah,
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: sort of rejection of that hyper sexualization of society, which
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: is really just sex sells. That's the reason why advertisers
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: use it, That's why Hollywood use it like porn, to
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: captures our eyeballs. And that's what all social media is
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: trying to do these days is capture eyeballs, and so
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: how do you do that quickly and easily and cheaply.
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: It's like, well, sexual content is probably the number one.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: I don't know what I'm making the number up, but
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: someone I heard some fantastical statistic. It was like eighty
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: percent of all in searches these days are for porn.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: It's like, well, you know where she is, she's being
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: were being bombarded with it constantly. And for me, I
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: would say it was I wasn't ready for I wouldn't.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: I wasn't. I wasn't really felt like I was ever
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: marriage material, Like I wasn't ready at that point in
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: my life to get married. I did eventually after I
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: left the monastery, and but you know, it's it's a
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: and then I got divorced, which was terrible. So it
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: was like, yeah, I probably wasn't ever really ready for that,
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: And and also a sense of you know what I
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: liked about the I would say for my personally, just
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: being for myself, I would say I'm someone who's very
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: much heterosexual, but very much I would say homosocial, which
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: means I like the company of the Marines, like that's
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: that's the I want to And I like the company
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: of the brother they spread a corps that I had
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: in the monastery, that sense of brotherhood and family that
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: I really appreciated. So so when you're in a mono
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: gender community by night, by nature, it has to exclude
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: the opposite sex. And so so that was something that
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: also appealed to me. And but I don't think, but
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: it's complicated, and my relationship with sexually changed dramatically from
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: when I started when I left to my own sexuality.
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: So I think it was much more repressive when I
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: first began towards myself, and then it took me a
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: couple of years to get over that and realize sexuality
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: is a natural, healthy part of the human being, and
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: to not repress it so much, but still being celibate,
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: but not being so like neurotic about Oh I'm thinking
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: this thought and that makes me a bad person. It's like, no,
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: it's just biology, you know. Just put it in that.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: Put it in the biology, but bucket and don't get
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: too too hung up on it.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: Yes, so I've got you. Another thing I wanted to
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: come on to is I always find people quite blase
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: about their childhoods with respect or with the sort of
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: they come out of the line. Oh, I had a
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: wonderful childhood. You know, I came from a privileged background.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: And then they go on to describe like a I'm
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: just talk about blokes. They'd go on to describe a father.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: There's a fucking asshole. Oh but he was the head
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: of commerce in this industry and dirt and dirt, And
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: I'm like, dude, do you not understand your you were
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: traumatized as a child. You're you're still looking. I'm not
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: saying that we should have you know, we we have
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: to heal the past and healing his love and love
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: is understanding first of all, and then it's forgiveness, isn't it.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: You know, we think a lot of us that have
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: had to move on in our lives have had to
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: learn that. And so I'm not I'm not here bad
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: mouth in fathers who for whatever reason didn't come up
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: with the goods. I just I am thinking about a
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: lot of people that joined the military though that that
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: really did it to prove something.
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that was how that was. That's why I realized
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: why I was there. And and like I said earlier,
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: I had a lot of anger issues that and then
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: and I was just going to go out there and
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: lure people up just to project my anger out and
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: somebody else and some somewhere else in the world who
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: may may not deserve it. So yeah, I think that's fair.
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: And and you know, trauma isn't just getting hit or
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: slapped or you know, might have you know, that's that's
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: very real physical trauma. But but emotional trauma is equally real.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: And I would say for the way I look at things,
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: there's different ways we can be wounded spiritually. We could
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: be wounded physically through physical abuse. I actually think some
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: it's with with with notable exceptions like like rape and incest,
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: and those are coming a different category. But like I think,
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: emotional abuse in some ways is much harder to overcome.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: And usually physical abuse companies emotional abuse that goes go together.
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: But it's really the emotional betrayal that's the that's the
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: hard part of the physical abuse when it's there. But
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: the but that same level abuse can't be happened even
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: if there isn't a physical component to it. It could
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: be emotional neglect. I certainly experienced a lot of neglect.
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: A lot of my parents just didn't want to have kids.
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: Really what it came down to, and they weren't ready
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: to have kids, and it was a shotgun wedding when
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: my older brother was born, and just this wasn't their thing,
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: and so so there was some there was you know,
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: air quotes abuse there, But I don't think it was malicious.
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: I think they just you know, they did the best
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: they could, but they didn't come into it with a
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: lot of skills themselves. And I think the worst kind
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: of abuse of spiritual neglect and spiritual abuse, like when
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: you when you're when your sense of meaning and purpose
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: and place in the universe is is is shaken to
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: the core where you don't feel like you belong or
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: or have a sense of identity and values in regret
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: and some some spiritual grounding, whatever your tradition is, like
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: some sense of direction and guidance and support as a child.
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: And without those things, you know, life there those traumas
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: catch up to us. And that's partly what I'm writting
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: this new book about, is like how do those childhood
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: wounds and how do those childhood traumas affect how we
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: do everything? But then how do we how they creep
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: into our financial life in particular.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, you making sense down and I'm fascinated because
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: I've never been among in a monastery. What's it?
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: Is it?
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: You know? Is it like boot camp? When you rock
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: up there? Are you kind of a bit o, you know,
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: starry eyed and wondering, my god, what what the hell
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: am I going to? What have I let myself in for?
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: Well? Isn't isn't quite the shock as as say, say
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: boot camp. No, but it's a longer slog. It's it's
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: sort of like, you know, it's it's you know, boot
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: camp is short and then it's over and then you're
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: off and doing your thing. Where the discipline of the
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: monster is sort of it's maybe not that intense, but
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: it's consistent, you know, for decade after decade, and so
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: it has its own kind of real discipline and practice
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: that that's required to kind of I would say the
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: first few years are actually the best years while I
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: was there. That was sort of the honeymoon period kind
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: of a marriage, you know, where it's great at the beginning,
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: and then things kind of did cheerioate over time, and
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: then you probably by year ten, I probably should have
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: left at that point, but I made a vow to
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: God and my community and to stick it out. So
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: death was part essentially, and I took that valve very seriously.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: And but you know, ten years of the last ten
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: years were not so great, and there was a lot
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: of conflict in the community and and a lot of
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: unresolved issues in terms of you're you're in a very authoritarian,
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: top down structure. But there it can get it can
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: get a little cifling after a while, just like you
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: would you would imagine some similar to what the military
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: I feel like, but even even more so because there
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: you're in a small, insular structure where it's very hierarchical,
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: and there isn't necessarily an easy way to have accountability
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: at the top, and so if the person at the
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: top goes a little sideways, it's very hard to course correct.
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: And and that's what I noticed in our community is
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: that over time it was just a little like as
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: you know, as me, and if you're navigating and your
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: point north and you go off one degree, your one
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: degree off, but you keep going and going and going
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: after a couple of miles or you know, however, we
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: kilometer is your way off course, right, and so you
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: need to be constantly course correcting. And I think in
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: our community in particular, we didn't do a good job
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: of that, and that that put us in a place
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: where it was no longer. It wasn't healthy psychologically or spiritually,
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: no longer for me.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's interesting you mentioned I think some people are
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: naturally searchers, don't not naturally searches. I think that our
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: life experience shapes us. That we can only be with
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: something for so long before we start to see the
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: true nature of it. And yeah, and it's like, okay,
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: I mean one thing in you probably heard this in
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: the US Marines. One thing you get in the British
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: forces is we all going into civilian street going outside. Yeah,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: I mean there's a clue there in that expression. It
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: sounds like you're going to step out of a doorway
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: into this world that's devoid of anything that makes sense
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: to you. And and for a lot of traumatized you
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: know people that with unhealed trauma, it does very quickly
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: turn into a nightmare, as I found out. But what
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: was it? An issue? You see? I would say the
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: the problem with organized religion is they're not telling you
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: the truth. They're not telling you what scripture is really about,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: which is emancipation of your yourself, which is done by
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: overcoming the material realm and your your ego self, firing
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: up your chakras, moving to the right hemisphere of the brain,
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: which triggers your pineal and your peturitory, and then you
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: get the download the downloads from spirit which people call
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: God Universe. What what? What? Whatever?
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: Now?
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: If I go into my local church, if I was
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: to start talking like that, they would just be like,
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: who is this? Absolutely madmen? And this is this is
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: the thing I've found in life. You probably have a
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: view on it yourself. I find when you're the minority
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: in something, it's usually because you're right and everyone else
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: is wrong. I thought it during all this medical nonsense
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: that we've been through. You know what everyone else is doing,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be doing the opposite, I'm afraid. So
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: did you find it a bit like that that you're
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: kind of, hey, guys, you're doing this because you've just
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: been told to, but you're sort of missing the bigger
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: picture here.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah? I think well, I would say on the spiritual
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: for our community had many strengths. What I what I
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: admired about our community, and one of the things that
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: endeared me to it was its openness to other religions.
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: We actually went and spent a summer living in an
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: ashram in India and your puna. You know, everyone had
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: advanced degrees. It was very highly highly academic and highly
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: educated group of people, and we were all widely read
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: and and open to all world religions. The prior of
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: our community had has doctorate and comparedive religions. He taught
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: at the University of Colorado, Colorado, Boulder, and uh, one
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: of we all had. We all had advanced degrees in
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: some philosophy, mathematics, science, chemistry, physics, like it was a
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: It was a very heady and rich intellectual space and
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: for that I'm very very grateful. So I didn't find
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: a dogmatic issue in my community, although I've seen it
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: in others. For me, what it came down to was
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: personality conflicts. Basically, it came down to egos and rubbing
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: up against each other and and and some people not
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: being able to yield and give ground for other voices
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: to be heard and other opinions to be expressed that
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: were maybe contrary, not so much in theology, but in
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: just how we're how we're running things. Like obviously the community,
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: my bankrupt there was some fundamental mismanagement going on, obviously
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: on the business side, which I cleaned up, but I
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: think it also came down to a certain really negative
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: attitude around money. Like okay, like I put all this
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: effort into fixing the community finances, but I was still
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: the community still looked at money is somehow evil or
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: dirty or corrupting or you know. There was one brother,
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: I call him Brother Pious. I wrote about a bottom
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: in my book who actually refused to touch money for many,
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: many years. You wouldn't touch cash or credit cards to
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: stay pure, so his hands would stay clean. But that
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: meant I had to run around and deal with money
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: ten times more than I should have had to do
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: to keep this so these brothers don't have to touch it.
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: It's like, so, how is that a spiritual practice? If so,
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: my hands need are getting dirtier so your hands can
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: stay cleaner, And then you're looking down on me for
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: being the money guy who's making sure that the roofs
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: can get fixed and the building can be paid for,
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: and food can be on the table and the health
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: insurance can be covered, and like it was sort of
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: like there was this resentment towards me for being right
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: about the money piece, like and and then I don't
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: they didn't want to give me credit for there was
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: There was genuine gratitude, don't get me wrong, but it
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: would also come out as resentment at times, like because
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: it was this, there was this, the facts of the
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: ground were in contrast to some of their cherished beliefs
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: around things like money. So that would be maybe a
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: dogmatic place where I think they were stuck. And and
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: over a while, I am just running myself ragged to
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: do all this work and and then not being treated
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: with a certain level of respect for it. I just
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: it just was like this, you know, against some gristal
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: new teeth you can never get out. It's just bugging
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: you every day, and and and for me, that was
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: one of the many reasons that that things fell apart.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: But I don't know if I answered your question. I
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: kind of go off on a tangent there.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: But yeah, sorry, Doug, I sh should say I managed
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: to poison myself decorating I was using this stuff. I
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: should have been wearing a mask, and stupidly I didn't.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: So it's it's triggered a bit of a cough. So
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: I keep muting myself every time I need to cough.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: One last thing on this topic. This is a bit funny.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: Have you heard of Buckfast wine?
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: No?
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: No, okay, you're probably not supposed to. But there's a
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: monastery not far from where I live. It's called but
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: Buckfast Buckfast Abbey, and the monks there produce this terrible
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: The thing is they they've produced this tonic wine they
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: call it, and not only is it ultra strong as in,
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: you know, a high percentage alcohol, but it's also caffeinated.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: So basically they produce the original like you know when
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: people do like Red Bull and vo. These these dudes
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: were already selling this like thirty years ago, right yeah.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: And in Scotland where they have a big, massive, you
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: know drug well, I mean the whole whole of the
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: UK in certain communities is terrible drug issues. But they
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: call it fuck fast up there because it gets you
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: off your head right really yep quick, especially if you
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: wash down a couple of benzos with it. I think
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: there's a wee bit of a conflict of interest with God, there,
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: is it not?
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: Or is that sort of would I would argue, yes,
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: it doesn't seem like the best thing for monks to
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: be producing it seems. But it's also an old tradition
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: going back thousands of years of you know, there's Chartruse
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: monastery abbey in France that produces the Chartruse liquor. There's
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: there's a but you know, I'm not much of a drinker,
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: but I would argue that that's probably the best way
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: to be making profit for your monastery. It seems a bit,
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: a bit, a bit contradictory.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: I was a massive drinker through most of my life,
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: and I think if I was in a monastery and
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: this stuff was on tap, I can see why people
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: would stay there.
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: Uh huh?
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: Is that is that kind of what it was?
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: A bit or people?
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: Oh, I don't think we were We weren't.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: We didn't.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: We weren't selling buckfast. But that might have maybe stick
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: around longer. I don't know, but I do know, and
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: this is this is sort of a dirty secret in monasticism.
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: Is there a quite a few months that I've won
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: into over the years who are have serious alcohol issues,
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: Like you go to some of these monasteries and so
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: my spiritual there is an old same don't never don't
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: meet your heroes right because you'll always be disappointed. And
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: and so I got to meet a couple of the
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: great luminaries in religious monastic life who brant authors, bringing speakers,
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: great great gipping sermons, and then and then it's still
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: generally good, decent people. But then you find out, well,
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: you died of cirrosis to the liver, like what in
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: a monastery, And yeah, it's it's unfortunately more common than
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: one might think.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, Doug, let's sorry, I'm conscious of your time.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: Let's come forward. Then at what point did you make
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: the traverse from being a monk living this disciplined life
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: into going into the finance. I mean you you you
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: you did outline it briefly before. Was there a kind
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: of epiphanal moment?
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah? What was the eperal moment?
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, I just give you a little exam But
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: someone once said to me money's not evil, Chris, It's
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: it's a form of energy exchange, just like everything else.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: And I was like, boom, boom, exactly.
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: And that's what I write about in my book about
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: that many other things, but my new book. And yeah,
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: it's what was to realize that maybe this was the epiphany.
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: Is't not only is it is it is it stored work, energy,
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: and it's morally neutral, and it could be used for
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: good or for evil. And what I realized is that
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: money is the tool for most actions, Like you can't
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: do much of anything in the world without money, and
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: even in the monastery, And that was probably my my
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: big epiphany. It was like the monks were all at
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: heart good people, Like despite all my differences, whatever disagreements
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: we may have had, they were fundamentally good people trying
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: to do good in the world who were hamstrung by
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: the lack of financial resources that were at our disposal.
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: And it was the constant refusal to to deal with
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: money in a deep, meaningful, spiritual way, to treat money
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: as a spiritual practice as opposed to just demonizing it
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: or or glorifying if you're on the other side of
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: the coin, right, it's it's it's it's it's not good,
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: it's not evil, but it could be put to good
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: or evil uses. It's like a it's like a tool,
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: like a hammer that you can use to build something
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: beautiful or whack yourself on the thumb. But refusing to
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: think deeply about money, it's like a carpenter refusing to
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: use a hammer it's like what what and so over
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: and over, almost daily, there would be something where you
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: would want to help. Somebody coming to the monastery. We
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: have monastery guests are coming all the time to be
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: someone you want to help. There'd be someone in the
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: community you want to serve, and it's like there's just
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: isn't the money for it. And if we if we
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: could have been more, if I could have I always
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: felt like if I could have brought everyone else along
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: to be a little bit more financially savvy the monastery
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: we were Eventually we're on solid ground. We weren't bankrupt,
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: and we weren't like struggling day to day, but we
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: weren't wealthy. Like we weren't. We didn't have anything really
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: extra to spare particularly, and so you see someone suffering
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: and you want to help and can't because you don't
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: have the tools of the resources to do it. And
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: it's just like, ah, you know, it's this frustration of
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: not being able to be of love and service to
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: the extent that that one wants to be because you
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: don't have the resources to deploy to solve someone's problem.
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: And so I realized that this was that there has
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: to be a better way, and there had to be
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: a way, some middle ground between the extreme of you know,
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: my father's, my family's growing up. As we talked about
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: growing up in a wealthy family where money was weaponized,
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: that's not good, and where everyone's just money obsessed. That's
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: not a great way to that's the best thing to
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: focus your life on money for its own sake. But
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: then there's the other side of the monastery, which is
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: just that it was just the opposite side of the
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: same dysfunctional coin, like laurifying money and vilifying money. It's
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: just two sides of the same coin. It's just and
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: it could both strengthen your ego. Both can be. Rejecting
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: money for the wrong reasons strengthens your ego just as
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: much as you know, really going after it for the
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: wrong reasons. And so that was the real epiphany. He's like, Okay,
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: I got to find a better way forward. And that's
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: what I've been exploring for these past couple of years
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: in many, many facets, and particularly in this new book,
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: Taming Your Money Monster.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: So your thing, Doug, if we can just refer to
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: it in such a term, what is it? Is it
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: getting people rich? Is it getting people financially secure.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: Well, it's all the above. It's like, well, if you
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: want to be rich, I think great, go for it,
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: But just why are you getting rich? And hopefully what
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: I want people to be able to do is to
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: have a healthy, secure financial future for themselves because you know,
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: money stress is just brutal, like not having enough money.
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: But we now know that your socio economic status is
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: the best predictor of mortality, Like the poorer you are,
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: the more like you to the higher rates of you know, obesity,
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: drug abuse, domestic violence, sexual abuse, workplace injury, cancer, mental
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: health issues down down the list, like everything you don't
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: want in life gets worse as your socioeconomic status. As
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: you get lower and lower on the socioeconomic run. You know,
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: it's like walking if you're getting paycheck to paycheck, it's
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: like walking over a hit of alligators in a type
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: rope every single day. And so a part we can't
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: I think, as Mark Twain humor humorously said, like, it's
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: the lack of money that's the root of all evil,
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: and and I think there's some truth in that. And
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: then you want to put a book and that sort
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: of one end of the spectrum and the other spectrum.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: There's also Saint Paul saying that it's the love of
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: money that's the root of all evil. It's like, well,
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: if you dig into the Greek, that sense has a
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: lot of possible interpretations, which I go into in the book.
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: But we'll torture you with that now. But it's a
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: kind of healthy middle way, Like, so you can be
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: your needs are met. You're you're stressing about money, you
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: could take care of yourself and the family, your family,
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: the people that you love, and then hopefully you have
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: some left over to actually go out in the world
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: and you use that as a tool for love and
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: service and and and to fix the crack in the
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: world that you were born to heal.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, got you, got you. So you appear to have
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: developed this system. Essential function of central aspect of it
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: seems to be this, how do you pronounce that? Any agram?
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Correct? Anyagram? Yeah?
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Can you explain it to me?
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: Yes? Yeah, the anagram? It's well yes and no. I
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: can give you a quick teaser. But it's a very
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: complicated system. It's a personality typology system that has nine
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: four ego archetypes. Now, it has always different layer. You
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: think about a fractal. If you know what a fractal is,
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: it's a geometric pattern. It's got infinite variety, but inside
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: a very simple and firm structure. And so we're talking
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: about the anagram right now. We're just talk about the
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: top layer of this fractal. But what it is, and
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: this is probably the most revolutionary and groundbreaking part of
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: my book is my hypothesis. And I think I've been
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: able to substantiate this is that it will be the
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: unacrammaced of the underlying code, or it's the physics of consciousness.
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: It's not some horoscope or some hot trend or anything
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: like that. What it is is explains how human consciousness
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: develops in a human and how a human ego develops.
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: And so your personality has a couple of components to it.
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: It's got your DNA, which is your nature, and that's
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: to be how your genes express themselves. And then you
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: have a nurture portion of your personality. And the enneagram
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: explains a portion of the nurture portion of your personality,
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: like how did your childhood environment shape who you are now?
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: And what you think of it? Like this what we
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: make one more and I'll finish this thought. I'll come
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: back to that one. So think of it like this.
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: When you were born, you had a physical umbilical cord
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: that connected you to your caregivers that was cut right.
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: Physical gets cut at birth, but immediately between you and
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: your mother. But then you develop a psychological umbilical cord
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: between you and your caregivers. So there's an egoic codependence
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: between you and your family members, and that allows them
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: to do most of the driving of your ego in
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: the earlier years of your life, from like zero to
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: seven and eight. And that psychological umbilical cord has to
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: be cut just like the physical umbilical cord had to
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: be cut. And it can only be done with negative
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: emotions because positive emotions would reinforce your connection to your caregivers.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: And we know from the neurobiology, and this is the
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: latest research coming from people like Dan Siegel, Jack Killian
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: Sala Lander, a bunch of other neurobiologists have found that
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: and yaq PANGCEP is the most important one that in
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: all mammals in the mammalian part of the brain done
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: in the lower olympic region kind of the base of
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: your skull. There's where all the core emotions are processed,
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: and we have positive emotions and negative emotions, of course,
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: but there's only three core negative emotions, and that's anger, sadness,
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: and fear, and so those are the sharpest negative emotional
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: knives in the human pain box, and that this psychological
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: and biblical cord has to be cut by basically a
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: combination of these three negative emotions. But one of them
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: does more of the cutting than the other two, and
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: which one does the most cutting kind of tells you
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: where you land on the enneagram. So if you think
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: of the anagram as a color, we are and there's
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: if you break this circle into three quadrants, you've got
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: an anger, sadness, in fear. We call them triads. And
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: then those are three main negative emotions. And then you
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: can process those emotions in one of three ways. You
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: can either internalize it like kind of giving yourself an
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: emotional wedgie, you can externalize it just kind of like
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: having a food fight with the world, or you can
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: do both. And so that's why we get these nine
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: archetypal patterns of personality in the enneagram. It's really basically
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: your ego defense mechanisms that you develop as a child
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: to help you navigate the biggest stressors in your childhood
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: environment and those and that worked really well for you
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: in child help you survive. It was necessary for you
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: to differentiate, for your parents, to individuate, and ultimately, you know,
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: develop as an independent, self conscious and aware of human being.
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: But those defense mechanisms then trip us up in our
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: adult life. They can cause all kinds of problems. But
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: it's sort of like the lens to which we view everything.
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: Because I call this this psychological cord cutting, I call
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: it your sacred wound. It's a new term I've invented.
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: And then what that sacred wound does is it creates
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: your greatest unconscious fear. And so your greatest unconscious fear
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: is then what you're your personal that's trying to basically
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: outrun your entire life. But it's sort of like a
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: black mirror episode because the thing that you're trying to
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: outrun it's if you're it's it's like you're running away
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: from it so far, so fast, it tends to cause
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: you to crash your car. If you think of your
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: ego like a car, use a car metaphor. It tends
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: to what it gets you defended vendors and multi car
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: pile ups if you're not careful. And so it's like
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: the thing that you're trying to outrun you. You you
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: push your ego so hard to escape it that you
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: end up crashing your ego and create the very fear
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: that you were trying to outrun in the first place.
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: And so it's like and then we do that in
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: all aspects of our life, but we also do it
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: in our finances. And that's the big breakthrough is to
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: take this this very robust, well researched, you know, American
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: journals psychiatry, the Residence Journal conclude that the anagram is
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: a robust system. It could be used in critical psychology.
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: And I said, these neurobiologists have found correlations between the
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: anagram types and brain patterns. So it's it's it's a
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: tool that's come through us through many cultures, through many religions,
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: to many traditions. And I've really tried to streamline and
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: take all these different kind of competing theories around the
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: anagram and make one coherent model that people who are
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: new this system can understand very easily, and also show
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: you a clear mathematical formula for moving from you know,
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: your greatest vice, which we all have, to our greatest
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: virtue that is unique. So the anagram is BA. This
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: is what gives us a sense of virtue. It's like
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: if you think of all the world religions like apps
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: running on a cosmic smartphone. The anagram is sort of
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: like the coding of the smartphone, and it doesn't care
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: if you're swiping right on Christianity or scrolling through Buddhism.
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: It's the underlying code that makes it all function because
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: it's it's what gives us a sense of honor, courage,
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: you know, humility, bravery, modesty, mercy, all these virtues. We
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: have them because of the idea we could. We might
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: disagree with how to practice them, but we don't disagree
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: that they exist. And that's the reason for that is
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: because there's underlying fundamental universal component to a human personnel
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: and human egostructure. Does that make any sense?
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's quite deep even for someone
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: like someone like me, but I think essentially can correct
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: me if I'm wrong. You know, our adverse or our
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: childhood experiences, our infant experience is hugely affect our outcomes
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: in life, doesn't it in our approach, our approach to life.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: I mean it makes me, I'm find it curious as
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: to why for me, I'm I'm climbing Mount Everest in April,
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: and I wouldn't want to be doing anything else, Doug.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: You know, I find doing that kind of stuff way easier,
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: well a whole lot easier, and having a job, and
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: it's easier than even doing all this stuff being a podcaster.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: Becare's no disrespect to my wonderful audience, my incredible guests,
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. You know, this does come with
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: a whole load of work and thinking and you know,
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: time and and then the element of stress and everything.
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: Whereas you know, being on a mountain and they go right,
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: see up there, just walk up there. Okay, thank you, Celia.
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: You know, to me it's just and yet it's kind
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: of crazy. That's something to me, which I just love
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: doing this kind of stuff in my life. Other people
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: won't even entertain it.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: I know people that that honestly don't believe they could
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: run a marathon. And I'm like, you can walk a marathon.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: They're not that hard. You know, you're not going to
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: win it, but but you can do if you finish it. Yeah,
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: if I put a gun to your head and said, right,
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: you're going to walk twenty six point two miles right now,
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: I promise you. You know you're you're going to sort
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: of do it. So like, yeah, I think we all
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: understand this early kind of you know, programming all bit
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: through trauma or whatever has an effect. What I mean,
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: how does this manifest in real life? Then if someone
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: comes to you and says, hey.
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: Doug, let's simply figure out what your type is, maybe
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: I can maybe I can give you I could use
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: me as example. That's really easy, But it be more
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: fun to play with your ego structure and see if
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: we can tease that out if you're open to it.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is hard.
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: This is hard to do over a zoom and to
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: do it armchair diagnostic like, this is a little tricky.
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: So I don't I don't want to promise get it
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: one hundred percent right, But let's see how this goes.
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: So think back to your life journey. Which of which
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: of those three negative emotions I talked about early your anger, sadness,
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: or fear, And sometimes sadness is also thought of a
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: shame that could be sort of interchangeable. So, which are
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: those three in your darkest emotional moments when things are
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: really rough for you? Which do you feel more of anger, sadness,
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: or fear?
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: If I was to answer honestly, it's probably amalgamation of
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: the three.
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: Okay, but just one hit you more than others think
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: of you like your darkest moments.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a caveat here, which is that I'm
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: spiritually enlightened. So I'm maybe if you'd asked me five
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: years ago, things will be different.
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: Let me think back to your twenties teams and twenties.
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: Maybe that'll make it easier.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think let's say, let's say anger. I
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: think if that comes under the unbrotherer of like, you know,
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: hating on other people and society, and then then yeah,
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: let's maybe go for that one.
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: Okay, And did you questions? Did you direct the anger
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: more towards yourself? Was it like a self criticism or
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: is it an external chrism of the world or sometimes both?
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: I think let's say sometimes both.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: Okay, that's tricky. Are you someone who hates conflict?
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, i'd say I I think I'd always try and
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: avoid avoid it, although so although you know, when a
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: beer don't want to, sure fucking fuck will me because
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: I would just yeah, hop off, yeah, I will unload
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: on you.
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: All right. Well, I don't think this is just a
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: stab in the dark, so if that's right. So, the
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: type that has internalized and externalized anger is called the
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: type nine in the enneagram, they're called the peacemaker because
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: they really hate conflict. They don't like interpersonal conflict because
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: they're basically sitting on a volcano of anger. They have
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: this anger towards themselves that nines typically have anger kind
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: of directed themselves for not being able to get their
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: needs met as a child, and then anger at the
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: external for not meeting them either. And so as kids,
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: they tend to not speak up too much and they
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: try to tend to go with the flow because they
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: don't feel like the world's going to listen to them anyway.
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: But when they do get angry, they tend to explode.
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: They get very It's like this, They're always repressing this
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: anger and then when something sets them off, it can
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: really set them off. But they don't tend to get
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: set off very often.
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: Does that sound like you, Yeah, that's I kind of
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: find these things a bit hard because I seem to
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: cover all bases. But let's say, yes.
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: Okay, And and that's interesting about nine is they tend
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: to have a hard time identifying they Nines are the
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: type often have the hardest time what type they are.
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: Nine and six is actually for different reasons. But but
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: nines have they tend to be easily they to have
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: an easy time to be empathizing with others, and can
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: empathize with other people's points of view pretty easily. And
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: they also can make it hard for them to know
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: where they stand sometimes. But yeah, and so let's just
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: say you were type nine. So then on top of
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: this city, well, let me let me ask you. Let
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: me ask you a couple of questions. See if I
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: if I'm not sure we're on track with this, but
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: let's play with it. Let's just say you are a
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: type nine. I'm look at my notes real quick so
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: I can make this go faster. So if you're if
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: you're a nine, then they tend it just isn't well,
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: I don't know, they tend to the greatest fear of
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: a nine is a loss of wholeness or a loss
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: of a sense of fragmentation. When their anger erupts. They
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: don't want the anger to come out because they thought
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: it's so intense it could just the incredible Hulk could
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: come out and just smash them in the world apart.
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: So they again, so they're always trying to sort of
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: their greatest vice to be saying for them is sloth.
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: And it doesn't mean they're lazy that, it doesn't mean
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: they can't climb Everest. It means they don't like the face.
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: They don't want to deal with the conflicts, all the
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: stressors of life, so they tend to back away from
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: them and not want to have a lot of interpersonal
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: conflict in their life. Does that sound like you.
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean i'd say yes, it's all a bit difficult, Doug.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: I always view things so subjectively these days that I
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: can be either I could be this, but I could
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: be that. But I don't want to sound like I
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: being a dick.
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: No, it's it's not. And so what I can do
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: is I can send you a link to it. There's
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: a really good anagram test. Maybe we could just put
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: in your show notes if anybody wants to find out.
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: And I actually get a kickback for this company, So
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: there's a bit of a conflict of interest here, but
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: it's I recommend it. It's called the I EQ nine
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: Integrative Anagram Test, and I'll send you a link, but
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: I have a licensing deal with them, but I partnered
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: with them because they're the best test out there and
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: they have about a ninety five percent accuracy rate in
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: determining your type, where there's a lot of free tests
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: out there you can take online, but they're about fifty
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: percent accurate, and so it's like, well, that's just not
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: good enough to really tell you much. It's it's a
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: coin to us. So so yeah, so so if that's
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: your if that's your type nine, then what I have
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: what I call money monsters for each of the nine types.
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: And so what I've done with the enneagram is I've
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: layered on top of it what I call the attachment
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: theory of money, which is based on the attachment theory
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: of relationships. If that means anything to your listeners, But
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: what the punchline of that is that what it says
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: is that there's basically two unhealthy ways that we can
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: relate to money. And of course the goal is they
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: have a healthy, secure, attached relationship to money. But when
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: we're unhealthy, we tend to be anxiously attached to it.
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: I mean we're too like my parents were. They're too
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: greedy or a little too obsessed money, money fixated for
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: the wrong reasons, or they're avoid they push it away,
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: they don't want to deal with it like I was,
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: you know in my younger years, where running off to
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: a monastery to just escape the world of money and
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: materialism forever was kind of what I thought was going
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: to happen. And so for a nine and then of
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: course it's just nothing is super simple. But we can be.
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: Most of us, however, I call like a jumbled style,
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: meaning we're maybe anxious in one part of our financial
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: life but avoid in another. And there's what I call
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: the four pillars of finance. And the four pillars or
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: finance are going to be earning, saving, investing, and giving.
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: So earning, saving, investing, in giving, those are the four
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: pillars of your financial life. So somebody might be like
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: an anxious earner. They might make a lot of money,
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: but they could be an avoidant saver, like they spend
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: everything on stuff so they never accumulate real wealth. Or
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: you could be an anxious investor and you might be
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: sitting on a pile of money, but then you're an
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: avoidant giver, or you never put your money into use
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: to helping serve others or be of any real use
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: in the world. So there's these different ways these money
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: monsters can manifest. And so for a nine, I call
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: the anxious money monster, I call it the avoidant money monster.
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: Called them the spud. They're sort of the financial couch
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: painted potato who never really gets off their button, does anything,
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: or they can be I call them the dud, which
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: means they tend to run around in a flurry of activity,
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: but because they hate conflict and they don't really want
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: to face the conflicts that are behind their money issues,
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: there tends to be a lot of activity but not
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: a lot of results. Whereas if they are healthy in
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: their financial life deniight, I call them the doer, like
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: they're not the spot that they actually get shit done.
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: They really get out their butt and they're engaged in
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: what's called right action, which is the highest virtue for
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: a nine, Like they really can assert themselves meaningfully and forcefully,
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: with humility and with modesty, and they are able to
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: kind of like almost like a Jedi zen Master kind
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: of cut through issues and bring about what we call
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: real harmony. So rather than the placid piece of conflict avoidance,
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: they find the harmony that comes about after a conflict
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: is resolved. Like, that's the real gift of a nine
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: is to jump into a conflict and resolve it in
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: a skillful way to bring about real harmony in the world,
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: which is what I really wants deep down, is they
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: want They don't want all this tension and conflict around them.
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: But in order to get to the homony that you
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: have to go through the conflict and resolve the problems
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: rather than just bury them and avoid them in the
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: first place. So that that does any of that sound
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: like stuff that sounds familiar to you?
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, very much. It's interesting from a personal perspective, it's
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: number nine, nine being the symbolic of christ consciousness. But so, okay,
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: so you assess me, and we we come up with this,
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: We come up with you know, with this assessment. But
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: what am I doing then? I mean, let do you do?
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: You suggest, hey, Chris, right now you want to go
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: and get your savings and put it in the stock
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: market or I'm obviously making a gross oversimplification maybe not.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: I'm not even in the right area. What what what?
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: Why am I doing?
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: What?
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: Why would why would you be assessing me for this?
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: Well, because what I want to figure out is why
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: you're doing what you're doing? Like it. So my I
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: have two books out. My first book is called From
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: Monk to Money Manager A former monkst financial guide to
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: becoming a little bit wealthy and why That's Okay. And
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: that first book is kind of a how to book.
• 56:18
  Speaker 3: It's it's that's there. That's a good primer on financial literacy,
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: is a good primer on how to do the nuts
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: and bolts of like of earning, of saving, investing, like
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: how do you invest? How do you do taxes? How
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: do you do insurance? Like all those little kind of
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: the detailed things that you need to know to have
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: a robust financial life. And this new book, Taming your
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: Money Monster Nine Paths to Money Mastery with the Enneagram,
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: it's really a why do book. It's sort of trying
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: to understand the psychological insights behind why you tend to
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: repeat the same mistakes over and over again in your
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: personal life and your spiritual life, but then also of
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: course in your financial life. Like they tend to all connect,
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: they're also all underconnected. How that how you do one
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: thing is kind of how you do everything right, and
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: so your personality. So this is sort of a bit
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: of a revolution in finance because you know, it's not
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: exactly conventional wisdom to wed personality theory with finance, but
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: I think it's more important than knowing your credit score
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: in many ways, because if you don't know why you're
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: doing the things you're doing, it's like tiering with an
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: engine and you don't know how the engine works, Like
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: you might fix it, but you might make things worse.
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: Or to use a quote from Mindstein, he said, you know,
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: find insense and sandy is doing the same thing over
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: and over again and expecting different results. And so what
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: I'm trying to help people do is understand the ways
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: we might all And I think we're always a little
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: bit crazy. None of us are perfectly saying there's no
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: because none of us are perfect, right, And so it's like,
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: where are you just a little bit crazy in your
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: financial in your personal life and your spiritual life, but
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: then also in your financial life because those are going
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: to be connected. And trying to help you find the
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: spiritual path through those struggles to get you to your
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: healthiest self, so you have a healthy relationship with yourself,
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: So then then you can have a healthy relationship to
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: money and how you're at dig in the world.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, I've got you. Yeah, I don't think anyone that
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: really achieves anything that they want is going to do
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: so if they're not comfortable with themselves, are they It's
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: it's I think as a serious effect on our future
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: potential if we if we haven't ironed out at least
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: the basic areas. What can you what I mean, can
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: you give us some Can we call them success stories?
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: Oh? Sure, I mean I don't want to. I mean
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: I've got so many clients. I mean the whole my
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: whole book is like I've got a success story for
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: each of the nine archetypes, and I could I could
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: walk you through those, probably the one for type nine.
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean, remember what I wrote. But there's
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: just which there's so many stories to choose from Which
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: one do I want to pick? But yeah, like for well,
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: I'll give you an example from the book. Actually with
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: a Type three. This client name Sarah, and she had
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: a husband, Mike, and Sarah was a Type three and
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: the money monster. For I won't go into all what
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: a type three is, but her money monster, I call
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: it the blinger. So the type three is someone who's
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: really concerned about status and image and looking successful in
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: the world because their greatest fear is being worthless. So
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: they'll actually run their fear of being worthless by looking
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: good in the eyes of others. And she was money
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: anxious type three, and so she had this compulsive need
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: to sort of bling out her life with you know,
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: the right cars, the right clothes, the right house. And
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: she was a she was a partner in a law firm,
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: but you know, and her husband was a type four
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: on the Instagram, and I call his money monster, I
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: called the flinger, which means he's his greatest fear was
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: not having a unique identity or or a neat place
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: in the world. So type four is are ones who
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: they're the box for people who hate to be put
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: into a box. Like there's certain people who just rebel
• 59:57
  Speaker 3: against conventionality at every turn. If there's a if there's
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: a societies, this is the way you're supposed to do it,
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: they want to do it different, just to be different,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: because that's how they get their sense of identity in
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: place and what they don't feel that they have, so
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: they gain it by standing apart and standing being different.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: And so his money monster was was avoidant called the flinger,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: which means he would take he was an artist and
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: a painter, and he, you know, one month he'd sell
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: a piece of art, and then he just playing that
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: money at some crazy form of self expression, like you know,
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: some artisal crushed gemstone paints, or some singular equipment for
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: a studio, or some vancy piece of clothes and whatever
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: just still look different to you know, to And so
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: they had plenty of money coming in, but they you know,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: they were basically were facing bankruptcy because they couldn't control
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: their spending. And so I had to come in and
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: help them figure out, like you all this money, but
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: why are you in debt? Like it doesn't make any sense.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: And it's like, well, because they're using the money to
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: prop up their egos and to defense the ego defenses
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: are what's causing all of their money. She's in all
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: these unconscious childhood wounds that they're they're trying to outrun
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: and trying to assuage and soothe with cash. And it's
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: the problem is fundamentally a spiritual one and a psychological one,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: and they're trying to solve it with with material stuff,
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 3: and then she doesn't going to work, and and and
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: it's going to create a lot of unnecessarily effering for
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: create a lot of unnecessary suffering for themselves and for
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: their family. And you know, eventually I was able to
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: kind of sit down with them and teach them about
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: how their brains work and why they were doing some
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 3: of the crazy stupid stuff they were doing with their
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: with their money, and help them right turn around and
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: you know, really have that really robust, secure financial future
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: for themselves and for their family that they that they
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: really always dreamed of.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: So I'm a right in thinking then that this is
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: this is a form of therapy. You know, it's it's
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: getting people saying, hey, look, this is the way you
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: deal with money is representative of I'm always going to say, unhere,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: childhood trauma. I believe everything comes back to that.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: We're on the same page there, Yeah, and.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: So yes, it's the expression wolf in sheeps. It's almost
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: like a sheep in wolf's clothing. It's the other way around.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: It's something good that's coming across as you'd initially think,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: oh my god, this is about money and profit and
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: greed and destroying the environment.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: I'm writing that down. That's a great life. I steal
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: it from you.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah you can. That's a sheep of ten ten thousand
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: dollars please? Yeah? So okay, yes, yes? And what then?
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, I totally get. It's a bit like when
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: someone helps someone. I think the expressions balance their bank
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: statement or something when you go through like what what
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: how do you use your bank card this month? And
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: why did you use it? And obviously some bit that
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: are awful at that. I challenge anyone not to go
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: through your bank statement and find something you've been paying
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: that you use that service for months.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: Incidentally, just chucking this out there, I realized this week
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: that that one of these apps that I paid through
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: the Google App Store or the play Store, that I
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: just had an interest in it because I was starting
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: to learn about ADHD and stuff, and a lot of
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: people say, I've got ADHD. So I've looked at this
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: app and I think that's all I did. You know,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: I might have tried the free sample or whatever. The
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: next thing I know, they've taken a thousand pounds out
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: of my bank, and they did so over a year.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: And I'm not really I'm not like checking my bank
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: statements like that has always been They've always been pretty fine.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: And and yeah, so just awarding out there out there, folks.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: And my advice would would be, if that happens to you,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: just go straight to your bank and say you've you
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: believe you've been defrauded and you know your your bank's
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: very very good in those oils. But sorry, I'm going
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: to lose my train of thought, Doug, aren't I? But so, yeah, obviously,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: the the wealth hygiene, as we could refer to it
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: is good to have. Obviously, the looking at like why
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: is my behavior like this? You know, what's compelling me
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: to make these irrational or what would seem irrational choices?
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: What do you actually suggest a people to go out
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: there then and make money? Or have I just got
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: this totally wrong?
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: No? I think So there's lots of there's lots of steps,
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 3: practical steps that you can take to sort of goals
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 3: that get people to become my call money The book
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: is tell taming your money master. But then the point
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 3: of the book is to help you become a money master,
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 3: is to use the strengths, harness your unique strengths according
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: to your personality type, to leverage those basically sort of
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: minimize your weaknesses, play to your strengths, and and your
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 3: strengths and weaknesses is going to show up in different
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: ways in different areas depending on your personality type. And
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 3: so it's really a detailed roadmap for you in your
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: type to understand your path to spiritual growth in a
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: really mathematical way and very clear linear structure. And then
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: also what are the practical things that you can do
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: depending on what kind of money monster you have, because
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: different money monsters have different It's it's depending in your
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: personalitype and the money monsters you're dealing with. And the
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: area in which we're talking about is that the earning
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 3: part is the saving part, is the investing part, is
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: the giving part. So I tackle all of that in
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: the books. It's kind of an opus. It's about a
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: foreign page. It's it's not a small book. I apologize
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 3: for that, but I think it's very useful for folks.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 3: So it's really trying to give you a detailed deep
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 3: psychologists deep dive into how your brain works in this
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: one particular arena of its again, as we mentioned earlier,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 3: Personaliti has many components to it. This is one of them,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: and but this is one that's very crucial to understanding
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 3: how you navigate through life.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: Yes, sorry, Doug, I was trying to show your book.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: In fact, I was actually trying. I was showing your book.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: And then I tried to buy the audio version of
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: From Monk to Money Manager, and it's just told me, my,
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: I've got to update my credit card. So I will
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: do that because I do like audio books. Yeah, is
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: there any Taming Your Money Master at it's also available
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: in audiobook?
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: Correct?
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: Al right? Okay, so which one would you advise people
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: to listen to if they had limited time but they
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: wanted to get the most from you?
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 3: Taming your Money Monster nine paths to Money Master with
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: the Enneagram and it releases July eight. You can pre
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: order it now. It's available from booksellers everywhere, but it
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 3: won't ship until July eighth, which is coming up in
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: about two weeks.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh that's exciting for you. Yes, Doug, I think
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: we could talk forever, and I know that we've only
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: just really touched the bases. Touched the bases here, What
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: do you feel a change in yourself since you learn
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: to understand all this stuff, and then.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's changed my life siecifically, I mean, because it
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 3: has so many practical applications, and you know it applies
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: to money, but it also applies to dating and relationships
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: and romance and corporate structures and group dynamics. It's got
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: so many different ways you can apply it that when
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: you understand it, it really helps you not to know how
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: your brain works, but then once you learn about the
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: other types, you understand how your friends and family and
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 3: colleagues how their brains work. Kind of the lens through
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 3: which there's it's imagine if we're all wearing sort of
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: different tinted lenses glass, sunglass with a different tint on them,
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: and so we're all seeing the same thing, but we're
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 3: perceiving it slightly differently because we have this filter. This
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: this our personality reality is sort of filtering how we're
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 3: perceiving what we're perceiving. And then you when you understand
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 3: how someone else's perceptions of reality are fundamentally different from yours,
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 3: it gives you a deeper insight to yourself, but it
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 3: also gives you deeper insight to like why people are
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 3: the way they are, and I think it offers a
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 3: real path to forgiveness and compassion, because like, oh, I
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 3: see the way I'm crazy, I see the way you're crazy.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 3: You know, you've got to put with my nonsense, and
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 3: I could probably put up with yours and maybe be
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: all less critical, self critical and also a little critical
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 3: of others.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: Did you say a little bit less critical.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: Less less critical, less critical of others?
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, got you? Got you. Well, I'm definitely gonna
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: grab your audio book. Thank you very much, welcome. Just
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: one last question crypto, do you have any you know,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: kind of views?
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: Not a fan?
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: No?
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 3: Is it?
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: Am? I right? My Rual Marines buddy, he's got an
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: interesting story. He went from living on a rubbish dump
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: in a minute Inanila to find financial freedom. And when
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: I asked him, he said, it's just like gambling on
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: a horse rice.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, I mean, And so some people get
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: lucky and they can hit it big, and a lot
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: of people have made a lot of money in crypto.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 3: But my fundamental criticism of it is is it a
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: currency or is it an investment? And it's very hard
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: for something to be both because those are two fundamentals.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: They you know, obviously you can't invest in currencies, to
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: be sure, but most people are treating it like an investment,
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 3: and yet it's a currency, and so it's it's just
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: it has no underlying value, there's nothing underpinning it, and
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: it can all evaporate in an instant. And since it's
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 3: not yet an acceptable form of currency at the store
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 3: and probably never will be, I don't see it as
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 3: a currency. A lot of people do use it as such.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 3: It's just like, if you have to think of the
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: the problem with crypto is it fluctuates too much to
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 3: be an actual currency in my perspective, because let's just
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: say I order a thousand cars from you from Japan,
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 3: and I put the order into Day and I send
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: you to the money for and I send you a
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 3: thousand bitcoins for a thousand cars whatever it is. I
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: don't know making that up. And then I put the
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 3: order and I send you the cash, and then there's
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: a three month delay before I get the cars, and
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: now the price of crypto has shifted and now they're
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: twice as expensive, were half the price that what I
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 3: paid for them. And how do you how do you
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: navigate that? As a as an effective tool to actually
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 3: use it to make commerce function. I don't, you know,
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 3: there's so many cryptos that I've seen, so many clients.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: For every story of someone's hit it big, there's at
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: least two stories of somebody who's lost their shirt on it.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: So I'm just like, I don't. I don't find it compelling.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: Although I think I think the underline technology is fascinating.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 3: I think, and yet as a yeah, I think that's
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 3: about I'm just scrambling at this. Yeah.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: No, I think I think you made perfect sense. I mean,
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: for our friends at home a load fairly. I mean,
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: I was suggested to buy some about it must have
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: been three or four years ago now, and I left
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: it for it. I didn't even check it. It was.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: It went up a bit and then it crashed and
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: I'd lost this like five hundred pounds was now worth
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: fifty pounds or something. And I didn't mind. It was
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: you know, I knew it was an experiment. And then
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: I went back and looked at it and oh my gosh,
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: suddenly it's it's just shot right up. So I thought, okay,
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: I'll buy some bitcoin and I'll buy some scenario or
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: whatever whatever it is I don't think it was that one,
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: but and having invested about three thousand pounds by say
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: that was the Monday bye, by this Saturday, I'm sitting
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: at three six hundred pounds and I'm thinking I made it.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: This is let the good times roll. This is going
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: to pay for my Everest trip. And then as we
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: sit here, now you know, you'll I'm back at what
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: I started. I probably lost about four hundred pers So.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 3: It's called it's called a greater fool theory. Have you
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: ever heard that?
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: No?
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: Can you explain?
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah? The greater fool is that there's you see something
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 3: going up, and so you buy in. And the theory
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: is that you're assuming there's someone who's a bigger fool
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 3: than you, who will who will pay more than what
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: you paid for it somewhere in the future, that more
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: fools are going to keep coming in. It's going to
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 3: go up.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: It's go up and keep going up.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: At some point there's and that there's enough fools out
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 3: there who will keep driving the price up that you
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 3: can sell your thing to down down the road, which
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 3: eventually there's only so much that it can go up,
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: eventually crashes down and you realize oh, I was the
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: fool someone. It's basically a pyramid scheme.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I got you, I got you, Doug. Listen,
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: this has been fascinating. Thank you so much for having
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: the conversation. I appreciate it, always appreciate it when it's
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: a two way thing because it allows me to sort
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: of get some of what I've learned out and hopefully
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: help people that that to understand themselves and why why
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: our behaviors are not always healthy, you know, for for
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: us and those around us. So I'm going to put
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: all your links for your for your socials and for
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: your books underneath this, underneath this video, and I'll send
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: you I'll send you a link to the Enneagram chest
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: if anything wants it. Yeah, I've actually got it on
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: the screen, so I can. I can just take it
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: off that the It was the Integrative nine dot com.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: Is that right?
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 3: It's called it I e I e Q nine.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I did just click on that I e Q
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: nine any a gram test for individuals, and.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: I'll send you. I have a unique link I can
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 3: send you that. It's the same price whether you use
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 3: the website or use my link. But I get it all.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, of course absolutely. If you're putting people in
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: contact with someone that's going to help, then then then
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: that's the way it should be. Brilliant. Okay, Doug just
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: stays stay on the line so I can thank you properly,
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: but for the purposes of the recording. Massive thank you, brother, really, really.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Chris really, I really enjoyed this conversation, by
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: the way, one of the best one I've done in
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 3: a long time because of your engagement.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Thank you. A lot of people say that, then,
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: you know, we try. We try to police to our
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: friends out there. Massive love to you all. I hope
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: you got as much out of this as I did.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: Please don't forget to like and subscribe dirt and hit
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: the notification bell. And just a massive thank you to
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: everyone that's supported us on either locals, Patreon, or become
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: a YouTube member. Yeah, we couldn't do this if it
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: wasn't for you, Chow friends. Thank you for listening to
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: the Bought the t Shirt podcast.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: Please like, subscribe, and share, and don't forget to follow
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: me on social media use the name Chris throw Instrum Graham,
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: Chris Docthorn. Thank you
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.