Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #229 Jason Flom with Ronald Jacobsen

Transcript

#229 Jason Flom with Ronald Jacobsen · Wrongful Conviction

0:01
Speaker 1: On January sixth, nineteen ninety, a twenty one year old
0:04
Speaker 1: woman who will refer to as BT, was working at
0:07
Speaker 1: a convenience store in Covington, Georgia, when around four am
0:11
Speaker 1: she was abducted, forced into a truck, and repeatedly sexually
0:14
Speaker 1: assaulted until she finally escaped ninety minutes later. At the
0:18
Speaker 1: time of the assault, her ex boyfriend, Ron Jacobson, was
0:21
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty miles away in Chattanooga, Tennessee, with
0:25
Speaker 1: his pregnant fiance and her mother. Over the course of
0:28
Speaker 1: several detailed statements, BT maintained that she did not know
0:32
Speaker 1: her attacker and that at one point during the abduction
0:35
Speaker 1: she thought of fleeing to the home of her friend
0:37
Speaker 1: Ron Jacobson when they were close by. Despite these statements
0:41
Speaker 1: and the lack of any physical or forensic evidence inculpating Ron,
0:45
Speaker 1: police ultimately persuaded Bet that she had just repressed the
0:49
Speaker 1: memory of her friend Ron being her actual attacker. At trial,
0:54
Speaker 1: Ron's defense failed to bring up the inconsistencies between BT's
0:58
Speaker 1: many earlier statements to Lease and the story of Ron
1:02
Speaker 1: being the perpetrator, and with DNA testing only in its infancy,
1:06
Speaker 1: Ron was convicted and sentenced to life in prison. In
1:10
Speaker 1: two thousand and three, Georgia enacted a law that allowed
1:12
Speaker 1: for post conviction DNA testing, but the Rape Shield Law,
1:16
Speaker 1: the law that is meant to protect rape survivors from
1:18
Speaker 1: irrelevant character assassinations, was first used to bar the DNA
1:21
Speaker 1: testing in this case, and then the introduction of the
1:24
Speaker 1: results when they clearly excluded Ron as BT's attacker. Finally,
1:30
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, the newly elected district Attorney took one
1:33
Speaker 1: look at Ron's case and dismissed all charges. This is
1:38
Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. I'm your host,
1:57
Speaker 1: Jason Flahm, and today's story is terrifying for a number
2:01
Speaker 1: of reasons. First because of all the things that should
2:04
Speaker 1: have pointed investigators away from Ron Jacobson, not Adam, but
2:08
Speaker 1: even more so because, once DNA testing was available to
2:13
Speaker 1: exonerate him, the DA fought tooth and nail both to
2:17
Speaker 1: block that testing and then to maintain a conviction that
2:20
Speaker 1: they knew was unjust. So, first of all, Ron, I'm
2:24
Speaker 1: sorry you're here because of the circumstances that brought you here,
2:28
Speaker 1: but I'm happy and honored to have you on the show,
2:30
Speaker 1: Thank You, Thank You, and with Ron, it's one of
2:33
Speaker 1: my favorite human beings. Ron's incredible attorney and champion who
2:39
Speaker 1: is a driving force not just in the Innocence Project,
2:43
Speaker 1: but also in the movement for justice across the board.
2:47
Speaker 1: And of course I'm talking about a voice you'll recognize,
2:49
Speaker 1: Vanessa Popkins of Vanessa Welcome back the Wrawful Conviction.
2:53
Speaker 2: It's fantastic to be here.
2:55
Speaker 1: Okay, So before all this happened, Ron, you were engaged,
2:59
Speaker 1: a Navy veteran and a father to be, living and
3:02
Speaker 1: working between Georgia and Tennessee. Can you tell us a
3:05
Speaker 1: little bit about your life before this terrible series of
3:08
Speaker 1: events took place.
3:09
Speaker 3: I was working as an autum mechanic and I was
3:12
Speaker 3: doing real good, making good money. My girlfriend was pregnant
3:16
Speaker 3: with our son and we were planning on getting married.
3:19
Speaker 3: I rent a nice house in Georgia, you know, very
3:22
Speaker 3: middle class, comfortable life. My life was really really come
3:26
Speaker 3: together at that point when this happened. You know, everything
3:29
Speaker 3: I worked for was gone.
3:31
Speaker 4: Right.
3:31
Speaker 1: So you were renting a place in Georgia, but you
3:33
Speaker 1: were kind of spending part of your time in Chattanooga,
3:36
Speaker 1: Tennessee with your pregnant fiance. So things are sailing along
3:39
Speaker 1: smoothly for now. Have you had any previous run ins
3:42
Speaker 1: with the law?
3:44
Speaker 3: Yes, that was one of the reasons I was in Georgia.
3:46
Speaker 3: I had an auto theft charge back in the eighties,
3:49
Speaker 3: and I was on parole and I was doing good
3:52
Speaker 3: and you know, no violations, and I wanted to put
3:54
Speaker 3: everything behind me and change get all with my life.
3:58
Speaker 1: And before we get to the crime, a very important
4:01
Speaker 1: fact in this case is that you and the victim,
4:04
Speaker 1: this woman who we're referring to as BT, you two
4:06
Speaker 1: had dated at some point prior to the incident, right.
4:09
Speaker 3: Yes, I met her one time. Then about a couple
4:14
Speaker 3: months later, a mother was dating my roommate and a
4:17
Speaker 3: mother mentioned BT. She's working down here at a golden
4:21
Speaker 3: pantry off five twenty. She would like to see you,
4:24
Speaker 3: talk to you. So you know, I drove on down.
4:27
Speaker 3: We talked, and when she got off for work, we
4:29
Speaker 3: drove back to Atlanta, went out to Little five Points
4:32
Speaker 3: to the Irish pub, and we started seeing each other.
4:35
Speaker 3: I want to say over October.
4:37
Speaker 1: So you dated her for approximately how long run?
4:40
Speaker 3: I want to say, four weeks? Three? Four weeks? All right?
4:44
Speaker 1: So Vanessa, take us back to the incident itself on
4:46
Speaker 1: the night of January sixth, nineteen ninety. It's an awful,
4:51
Speaker 1: unspeakable crime, but just walk us through it, okay.
4:54
Speaker 2: So BT was working overnight at the Golden Pantry convenience
4:58
Speaker 2: store and abducted into a white, grayish truck and driven
5:04
Speaker 2: up the interstate, where the assailant beat her, forced her
5:08
Speaker 2: to perform oral sex at some point pulled over and
5:12
Speaker 2: vaginally and anally raped her. The assailant kept driving and
5:17
Speaker 2: actually ran out of gas, and so they were pulled
5:20
Speaker 2: over on the side of the road and somebody stopped
5:23
Speaker 2: seeing the car in distress on the side of the road,
5:26
Speaker 2: and the assailant got into the car with this good
5:29
Speaker 2: samartan and drove off, presumably to get gas. And so
5:33
Speaker 2: bast saw this as her opportunity to escape. She ran
5:37
Speaker 2: to a nearby house and ultimately knocked on the door.
5:41
Speaker 2: The person who lived there, you know, opened it up
5:43
Speaker 2: and saw BT, who was bloody and shaken up, and
5:46
Speaker 2: called police. At this point, the Sheriff's office actually had
5:50
Speaker 2: already arrived at the Golden Pantry because a customer had
5:53
Speaker 2: come in noticed that nobody was in the store, saw
5:56
Speaker 2: blood and the store in disarray, and so had called
5:59
Speaker 2: the sheriff office and somebody from a convenience door across
6:03
Speaker 2: the way had said that they saw BT getting into
6:06
Speaker 2: this truck, and so she was immediately taken to the hospital.
6:10
Speaker 2: They performed a sexual assault kit and recovered male DNA.
6:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they found more evidence as well, right, a
6:18
Speaker 1: bloody handprint on the wall, folding knife outside on the ground,
6:22
Speaker 1: and the Georgia Bureau of Investigation did GBI performed blood
6:27
Speaker 1: tests on the knife and the handprint, so they had
6:31
Speaker 1: tons of evidence, imagine. They also had a description of
6:33
Speaker 1: the truck. Now, was the assailant wearing a mask by chance?
6:38
Speaker 2: No, But it's hard to know actually what really happened
6:41
Speaker 2: because BT gave different stories to the police. So in
6:46
Speaker 2: the week right after the crime, she talked to the
6:48
Speaker 2: police on three different occasions, and the first time she
6:51
Speaker 2: did she gave a really detailed statement, and she said
6:55
Speaker 2: that she was working at the convenience door and that
6:58
Speaker 2: a group had come in of two guys and two
7:00
Speaker 2: girls earlier in the evening, and that one of the
7:04
Speaker 2: men returned several hours later, and that was the person
7:08
Speaker 2: who came behind the counter. And ultimately abducted her. And
7:13
Speaker 2: in this statement she was extremely detailed and very specific
7:19
Speaker 2: about the assailant being a stranger. She told police that
7:24
Speaker 2: she said to him, I'm quoting, I said, what did
7:27
Speaker 2: I ever do to you? I don't even know you,
7:30
Speaker 2: she said, I just knew my own personal opinion. He
7:33
Speaker 2: had come by the store, saw me earlier, got the
7:36
Speaker 2: idea that I might be there alone, come in there.
7:39
Speaker 2: Sure enough, I wasn't so busy, So he took off
7:42
Speaker 2: young girl alone three o'clock in the morning.
7:44
Speaker 4: Why not.
7:45
Speaker 2: So she's very detailed about this being a stranger, and
7:47
Speaker 2: she even says it's this person who was with a
7:49
Speaker 2: group earlier in the evening. And then she goes on
7:52
Speaker 2: to give other statements. Two days after the attack, she
7:55
Speaker 2: gives a description of her assailant. She talks about him
7:59
Speaker 2: being five no five point ten. She wasn't clear if
8:02
Speaker 2: he had tattoos. Of course at that time, Ron is
8:05
Speaker 2: a half a foot taller. He's six'. Three he has multiple,
8:09
Speaker 2: Tattoos so she's describing somebody who's Not. Ron and then
8:13
Speaker 2: she gives a third, statement, right which is a written,
8:16
Speaker 2: statement and the police take her on a drive through
8:19
Speaker 2: of the route that the assailant had taken, her and
8:22
Speaker 2: she points several locations where she was sexually assaulted and
8:26
Speaker 2: walks through a lot of. Details she says in this
8:29
Speaker 2: statement that at one of the stops during the attack
8:32
Speaker 2: that she thought this could be an opportunity to, escape
8:35
Speaker 2: and that she had a, Friend Ronald, jacobson who lived,
8:38
Speaker 2: nearby and she, said you, know MAYBE i could escape
8:41
Speaker 2: IF i have the, chance AND i could get help from.
8:44
Speaker 1: HIM i, mean it's all. Craziness the victim grant that
8:48
Speaker 1: she's traumatized for, sure but she said she was hoping
8:52
Speaker 1: to escape to the home of none other Than Ron.
8:55
Speaker 1: Jacobson how do we square that with the idea That Ron,
9:00
Speaker 1: jacobson she later, says was the guy who was attacking.
9:02
Speaker 1: HER i, mean how did they eventually convince her to identify?
9:06
Speaker 1: Him and they interviewed her father as, WELL i, mean
9:11
Speaker 1: how does that play into?
9:13
Speaker 2: This so she told police that at the time that
9:17
Speaker 2: the assailant came into the, store that there was somebody
9:21
Speaker 2: else with her and she couldn't really remember who it,
9:24
Speaker 2: was but she thought it Was Bob, knight who was
9:27
Speaker 2: an older man who had worked at the store. Previously
9:30
Speaker 2: but was friends with her. Father in the days following her,
9:34
Speaker 2: Attack Bob knight and the father are talking and the father, says,
9:39
Speaker 2: well you, know she was having some issues with this
9:41
Speaker 2: guy she, Dated Ron. Jacobson maybe he did. It So
9:45
Speaker 2: Bob knight Takes Ron jacobson's name to the police and,
9:49
Speaker 2: SAYS i THINK i know who the assailant, Is Ron.
9:52
Speaker 2: Jacobson Bob knight had never Met Ron. Jacobson he's just
9:55
Speaker 2: going off of this statement that the dad. Said so
9:59
Speaker 2: police pull a picture Of Ron, jacobson HIS dmv photograph
10:04
Speaker 2: and show it To Bob, knight who then, says that's
10:08
Speaker 2: the PERSON i saw in the. Store BUT i mean
10:10
Speaker 2: that lineup or photo show up procedure is just bonkers
10:16
Speaker 2: and of, itself because they give Him Ron jacobson's driver's,
10:20
Speaker 2: license which presumably has his name on, it and he, says,
10:23
Speaker 2: yeah that's the. Guy and so based on, that the
10:26
Speaker 2: police go back TO bt and say we think we
10:30
Speaker 2: know who did. It It's Ron, jacobson and she, says,
10:32
Speaker 2: no it. Wasn't so she's adamant that it's Not. Ron
10:36
Speaker 2: and then the police want to polygraph. Her so you
10:40
Speaker 2: HAVE bt saying, no it's Not, ron and the police
10:43
Speaker 2: saying we don't believe, you and we're going to polygraph.
10:46
Speaker 2: You i've never even seen this circumstance in any case
10:49
Speaker 2: That i've worked, on where the police seek to polygraph
10:52
Speaker 2: the victim because the victim is not identifying the person
10:56
Speaker 2: who they believe is the. Suspect but that's what was happening.
10:59
Speaker 2: Here it turns out THAT, bt at the time of
11:03
Speaker 2: her attack was newly, pregnant and so the polygrapher refused
11:07
Speaker 2: to administer the, polygraph and instead the police consult with
11:13
Speaker 2: a behavioral analyst at The Georgia bureau Of investigation that
11:17
Speaker 2: says to, them go back to, her talk to. Her
11:20
Speaker 2: sometimes victims repress, things tell her you know what, happened
11:25
Speaker 2: and eventually she'll remember and she'll come forward with the.
11:28
Speaker 2: Information and so that's what. Happens they go back to
11:32
Speaker 2: her and then she eventually says it Was.
11:34
Speaker 1: Ron and then six days, Later january, Twelfth, ron they
11:39
Speaker 1: brought you. In how did that? GO i, mean you
11:41
Speaker 1: must have been shocked to even find yourself in that
11:44
Speaker 1: situation in the first.
11:45
Speaker 3: Place, WELL i was at work In atlanta and the
11:48
Speaker 3: phone ring it was my pro, officer he, said, LOOK
11:51
Speaker 3: i do you come into the office as fasts. POSSIBLE i, said,
11:55
Speaker 3: Okay i'll be. There So i'm thinking to, myself, okay
11:58
Speaker 3: it's a random your analysis and. Out SO i told
12:01
Speaker 3: My BOSSTON i, said, LOOK i gotta. Go i'll be
12:03
Speaker 3: back an. Hour SO i walk into THE pro. Office
12:06
Speaker 3: ANOTHER pro officer walks in behind, me pushed me against the,
12:10
Speaker 3: wall put me in a, handcuffs Says i'm under. Arrest so
12:13
Speaker 3: Now i'm, wondering you, know for. WHAT i didn't violate
12:16
Speaker 3: parole and they said, no for a sexual suit of
12:19
Speaker 3: this VICTIM, Bt and SO i, EXPLAINED i, SAID bt,
12:23
Speaker 3: NAH i was In tennessee With, janey my, Girlfriend and
12:27
Speaker 3: they called The sheriff's department and THE gbi Agent sheriff's
12:30
Speaker 3: department come, up picked me, up drove me back to
12:33
Speaker 3: the county. Jail so it was a total shock to.
12:35
Speaker 1: Me so police didn't record the, interrogation but nonetheless they
12:39
Speaker 1: would have had an issue to police report that was
12:41
Speaker 1: written in the first, person as If ron had written it,
12:44
Speaker 1: right and then of course to double down on this obvious.
12:47
Speaker 1: Malfeasans they also never showed a copy of the report
12:50
Speaker 1: To ron or his team to determine whether it was
12:53
Speaker 1: accurate or. Not And ron was arrested the same, day
12:56
Speaker 1: charged with aggravated side of me, kidnapping with bodily injury
12:59
Speaker 1: and bated. Assault and then six months Later ron went
13:03
Speaker 1: to trial In Newton County Superior court and in the
13:06
Speaker 1: opening state with the, prosecutor now get this, Okay the
13:09
Speaker 1: prosecutor acknowledged that the case was. Problematic he said that
13:13
Speaker 1: the police quote went back TO bt and kind of
13:16
Speaker 1: told her who it, was and at that point in,
13:19
Speaker 1: time she, said, yes it was, him and she went
13:21
Speaker 1: and told the whole same story, again but just supplied
13:24
Speaker 1: his name at this point in time. Unquote so from
13:28
Speaker 1: what we already know of the, investigation that summary is
13:32
Speaker 1: misleading at. Best there, was of, course zero physical or
13:36
Speaker 1: forensic evidence Tying ron to the. Crime so it comes
13:40
Speaker 1: down to the problematic testimonies To Bob knight AND, bt
13:44
Speaker 1: to which the jury was simply not aware of how
13:46
Speaker 1: these pieces of evidence were. Gathered, Now night testified that
13:50
Speaker 1: he Recognized ron as the man who came into the
13:53
Speaker 1: store that night as he was, leaving and THEN bt
13:55
Speaker 1: went ahead and identified You ron as her, attacker and
13:58
Speaker 1: she said she didn't immediately to fire because you had
14:01
Speaker 1: threatened to kill her if she. Did, Now, vanessa go
14:03
Speaker 1: ahead and tell us about the defense.
14:04
Speaker 2: HERE bt is never really confronted with the detailed statements
14:10
Speaker 2: that she gave implicating somebody. Else it is mentioned at
14:14
Speaker 2: trial that she initially didn't say it Was, ron and
14:17
Speaker 2: she says it was because you, know she was scared
14:19
Speaker 2: of her. Life but just not saying it Was ron
14:22
Speaker 2: at the beginning could mean you didn't say it in
14:24
Speaker 2: the first hour or. Two it doesn't mean you. Know
14:27
Speaker 2: and the jury never was told you gave these really detailed, statements.
14:31
Speaker 2: Right you talked about even going To ron for. Help
14:34
Speaker 2: you talked about this group of people coming in and
14:37
Speaker 2: one of the guys coming, back and you saying to,
14:39
Speaker 2: HIM i don't even know. YOU i, mean none of
14:41
Speaker 2: that came out to the. Jury so there's two, Possibilities,
14:44
Speaker 2: right it wasn't turned over and either the police buried
14:48
Speaker 2: it or the prosecution buried, it or it was turned
14:51
Speaker 2: over and his defense attorneys failed to use. IT i
14:55
Speaker 2: don't have the answer to, that as the records aren't,
14:57
Speaker 2: perfect and Because ron's lawyer was so bad that it
15:01
Speaker 2: is possible that he didn't use it and the witnesses
15:05
Speaker 2: That ron had in his favor to say that he
15:09
Speaker 2: was one hundred and fifty miles away when this. Happened
15:12
Speaker 2: it was his girlfriend at the time who was pregnant her.
15:15
Speaker 2: Mother they were WATCHING tv at two thirty three in the.
15:18
Speaker 2: Morning he's hours away from where this crime happened at
15:22
Speaker 2: shortly probably after four. Am and there's reason that they
15:25
Speaker 2: would remember this. Night it was just within days of
15:29
Speaker 2: his girlfriend's. Birthday he had gone up there that. Weekend
15:31
Speaker 2: he brought our car as a, president and so it's
15:34
Speaker 2: just none of that really came out at trial to
15:36
Speaker 2: really add credibility and show why these people who were
15:40
Speaker 2: testifying and had been With, ron you, know why they
15:43
Speaker 2: were so believable and, credible and that just didn't come.
15:46
Speaker 2: Out it was just like five questions and you're. Done
15:48
Speaker 2: the defense That ron. HAD i, mean this is where
15:52
Speaker 2: you feel like you're in a, movie like this is
15:54
Speaker 2: a horror. Movie you're From, brooklyn you're stuck basically In.
15:57
Speaker 2: Georgia you're now facing, trial and your lawyer is scared
16:03
Speaker 2: of his own shadow or just doesn't. Care AND i
16:07
Speaker 2: think one just being an outsider in this, place which
16:11
Speaker 2: is you, know close To, atlanta but world's away. Right
16:15
Speaker 2: even on his booking sheet there was a line for
16:18
Speaker 2: deformities and the deformity listed Is brooklyn Accent.
16:24
Speaker 1: Ron what are your recollections of the?
16:26
Speaker 3: Trial stranger in a strange. Land my trial attorney came
16:30
Speaker 3: to see, ME i believe maybe twice at the most.
16:34
Speaker 3: Repair he never talked to none of my witnesses till
16:37
Speaker 3: the day to. Trial so the night before my attorney
16:41
Speaker 3: comes walking down to the jail and he, said we
16:43
Speaker 3: got the trial in the. Morning try to get a
16:45
Speaker 3: haircut and cut your. BEARD i got an old rusty.
16:49
Speaker 3: RAZOR i trimmed my beard. Off so the day to,
16:52
Speaker 3: TRIAL i go. In now you got this prosecutor Ton
16:55
Speaker 3: jerry look at. Him he tried to change his. Appearance
16:58
Speaker 3: he shaved his beard. Off so basically everything my trial
17:02
Speaker 3: attorney did was. Negative when he HAD bt on the witness,
17:07
Speaker 3: stand he popped the question off as, well watch your relationship.
17:11
Speaker 3: Tonight the district Attorney JOHN i you, know he jumped
17:14
Speaker 3: up said, whoa, whoa. Whoa you told the judge get
17:17
Speaker 3: the jury out of, here and they disciplined my. Attorney
17:20
Speaker 3: they brought up the rape. Shield you're not supposed to
17:22
Speaker 3: ask no kind of sexual, relationships pass, relationships but you
17:27
Speaker 3: know it was too. Late the jury already heard this,
17:29
Speaker 3: question so they bring it, back and from that point,
17:32
Speaker 3: on my attorney sat there and drew little sailboats on his,
17:36
Speaker 3: pad so it was a foregone. Conclusion you KNOW i
17:39
Speaker 3: was going to get.
17:39
Speaker 1: Convicted he drew little sailboats on his, pass and you're
17:45
Speaker 1: sitting there watching him do. This so you've got like
17:48
Speaker 1: a split screen horror. Show you've got these people up
17:50
Speaker 1: there telling all kinds of lies about, you and you've
17:53
Speaker 1: got the one person who's there that's supposed to be
17:55
Speaker 1: your last line of, defense really drawing fucking sailboats on a.
17:59
Speaker 1: Pass it's really. Not and then of course it gets
18:02
Speaker 1: worse because On june, twelfth nineteen, ninety the jury convicted
18:06
Speaker 1: you of, aggravatedstomy can have a bodily injury and aggravated
18:09
Speaker 1: a sodden sense of your life in. Prison it was
18:11
Speaker 1: a horror.
18:11
Speaker 3: Show THEN i took the stand in my own. Defense
18:14
Speaker 3: my trial attorney you never really asked me any, questions
18:18
Speaker 3: but then to prosecute he told the jury EVERYTHING i.
18:20
Speaker 3: Said i'm a pathological, liar habitual. LIAR i brought up
18:24
Speaker 3: about the, police you, know with the, statements and, oh
18:28
Speaker 3: so you're accusing the police of being liars when you're the.
18:31
Speaker 3: Liar but you know small town politics and HERE i,
18:35
Speaker 3: am you, know From, brooklyn Outsider New, yorker and this
18:39
Speaker 3: is what. HAPPENS a gross mischaracter justice cost me thirty,
18:42
Speaker 3: years eight, months and thirteen days of my.
18:45
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19:32
Speaker 3: Worldwide WHEN i first went to, prison it's basically like
19:42
Speaker 3: a wild dog. Pack everybody wants to be an alpha,
19:45
Speaker 3: male so you don't trust. Nobody you got to watch your,
19:48
Speaker 3: back you got to watch what you, say and the
19:51
Speaker 3: guards you, know they don't care people getting killed there every,
19:54
Speaker 3: week no prosecution on them because you got twenty year
19:57
Speaker 3: old kids with life. Sentences no whole again, now so
20:01
Speaker 3: they're going to do what they. Want when you first get,
20:03
Speaker 3: convicted you go through the. Stage it's a lot of,
20:06
Speaker 3: anger anger at the. World then it's. Acceptance you say to, Yourself,
20:10
Speaker 3: okay this happened to, me what are you going to
20:12
Speaker 3: do about? It so now you educate, yourself go to
20:15
Speaker 3: the law, library you start, reading start. Researching AND i
20:19
Speaker 3: happened to be watching yoj trial And i've Seen barryshack
20:21
Speaker 3: talking ABOUT. DNA i talked to my. MOM i, said
20:25
Speaker 3: look THAT dna is going to clear me one. Day
20:27
Speaker 3: SO i started. Researching i've Seen barryshak wrote a, Book Actual,
20:31
Speaker 3: innocence so my mom sent it to. ME i read
20:34
Speaker 3: this book like sixteen. Times and at the, time around
20:37
Speaker 3: two thousand and, Three georgia passed the law from post
20:40
Speaker 3: CONVICTION dna. Testing SO i sat, down wrote thirteen fifteen
20:45
Speaker 3: page letter The Georgia Innocent project and The Innocent project
20:49
Speaker 3: In New york And. Georgia people wrote me right, back said,
20:52
Speaker 3: okay we'll help. You we'll take your, case send us
20:55
Speaker 3: you transcripts and. Everything SO i. Did about a year goes,
20:58
Speaker 3: by they send everything, back says at this, time we
21:01
Speaker 3: can't do nothing for, you but your case is still.
21:04
Speaker 3: Open ten years go. By it was in twenty. Thirteen
21:09
Speaker 3: out of the, BLUE i get a. Letter go up
21:10
Speaker 3: to the mail, room get legal, mail and here it
21:13
Speaker 3: is a letter from THE Us project says we're going
21:15
Speaker 3: to accept your. Case and it was just like a
21:18
Speaker 3: wy to load off my. Back SO i run over
21:21
Speaker 3: to Low, library get. Everything note OF us gets straight into,
21:24
Speaker 3: mail And i've been working With vanessa seven eight years.
21:27
Speaker 3: Now it's been an uphill.
21:29
Speaker 1: Battle, yeah uphill sounds about, right because from WHAT i
21:34
Speaker 1: understand is that THIS da who's, now by the, way a,
21:37
Speaker 1: judge her Name's, leylasan she fought both to disallow THE
21:41
Speaker 1: dna testing to begin with and then to disallow the
21:44
Speaker 1: admission of results that they knew would have cleared, you
21:47
Speaker 1: which is just freaking. Nuts So, vanessa can you tell
21:51
Speaker 1: us about the fight against THIS Da, leilazan who was
21:54
Speaker 1: just hell bent on maintaining this awful.
21:56
Speaker 2: Injustice THE dna test results that we obtained Clearing ron
22:02
Speaker 2: came back in twenty, seventeen and when we got those,
22:06
Speaker 2: results THE Da Opposed relief fought against a new, trial
22:11
Speaker 2: and her primary argument Was ron could not use these
22:17
Speaker 2: test results to prove his innocence because the rape shield
22:21
Speaker 2: law prevented him from using THE dna to secure his.
22:26
Speaker 2: Exoneration so the rape shield law is a law that
22:29
Speaker 2: has been enacted to protect victims of sexual assault from
22:33
Speaker 2: defense attorneys going in and trying to, say, oh, well
22:36
Speaker 2: you know you slept with twenty other people and so
22:39
Speaker 2: you weren't really sexually, assaulted or you, consented or try
22:42
Speaker 2: to use victim's past sexual history to somehow undermine the
22:49
Speaker 2: veracity of his or her. Claim and it has nothing
22:53
Speaker 2: to do with if you have scientific evidence that goes
22:56
Speaker 2: to the heart of who committed the, crime, Right but
22:59
Speaker 2: this is how the state was in this. Case their position,
23:02
Speaker 2: was we Know ron was the, assailant so if there's
23:05
Speaker 2: some MALE dna in her rape, kit, that by the,
23:08
Speaker 2: way we know couldn't come from a prior act of consensual,
23:12
Speaker 2: sex because she told hospital personnel she hadn't had sex
23:15
Speaker 2: in a week before the, attack so we know it
23:17
Speaker 2: couldn't have come from anyone. Else but their position was
23:20
Speaker 2: since it Excluded, ron it had to come from somebody.
23:22
Speaker 2: Else she must be, lying she must have not been
23:25
Speaker 2: honest about another, encounter and Therefore ron can't use. It
23:29
Speaker 2: and it's like that was, crazy and even ultimately THE
23:32
Speaker 2: da recognized was crazy because of some cases that were
23:35
Speaker 2: going on in The Georgia Supreme court at the. Time
23:38
Speaker 2: so she tried to use the rape shield law as
23:41
Speaker 2: a rape shield sword Against. Ron then when that didn't
23:45
Speaker 2: prevail and his conviction was, vacated he was being held
23:48
Speaker 2: in the county jail with no. Bail he was in
23:51
Speaker 2: on a sexual assault for which he had already served thirty,
23:54
Speaker 2: years and the court declined to set fail and so
23:58
Speaker 2: he was in jail for over a year with no.
24:02
Speaker 2: Activity the state have made no real attempt to bring
24:05
Speaker 2: this case to, retrial but wouldn't dismiss the. Charges and,
24:08
Speaker 2: then of course THE covid nineteen pandemic, hits and so
24:12
Speaker 2: In april of twenty, twenty we make this emergency motion
24:16
Speaker 2: to set bail In ron's. Case this is when the
24:19
Speaker 2: pandemic's taking. Off it starts to spread like wildfire in.
24:23
Speaker 2: Jails people in jails are sitting, ducks Right they don't
24:26
Speaker 2: have access to mass and purel and all of the
24:29
Speaker 2: things that people were clamoring for out in. Society and
24:34
Speaker 2: so it's at this point that we finally are approaching
24:38
Speaker 2: a hearing. Date and by the, way in this, jurisdiction
24:40
Speaker 2: if you file, emotion the only way you can get
24:42
Speaker 2: on the court's calendar is if THE da sets it.
24:44
Speaker 2: Down so for a while she wouldn't even set, This
24:46
Speaker 2: we couldn't even get the motion. Set and finally we
24:50
Speaker 2: get an opportunity that a court's going to hear, it
24:52
Speaker 2: and she makes this offer To, ron you, know if
24:55
Speaker 2: you just plead, guilty you can get out. Tomorrow she
24:58
Speaker 2: even offers him An alford, plea which means that he
25:00
Speaker 2: could have maintained his innocence but still pled. Guilty would
25:04
Speaker 2: have the same effect as a. Conviction but he could
25:07
Speaker 2: have gotten, out you, know the next, day if he
25:10
Speaker 2: had just SAID i did. It but by saying, No
25:13
Speaker 2: ron wasn't just taking this, stance he was also risking his.
25:17
Speaker 2: Life you, know we didn't know what was going to
25:19
Speaker 2: go on WITH. Covid he didn't have access to even protect,
25:22
Speaker 2: himself so it was even more dangerous than. Usual this
25:26
Speaker 2: thought that you know by saying, No ron could have
25:28
Speaker 2: died in prison and just never had the opportunity to
25:31
Speaker 2: even walk. Out and, then of, course after he turns
25:35
Speaker 2: down the, deal the state goes into court and argues
25:39
Speaker 2: That ron shouldn't get bailed because he's too. Dangerous so
25:42
Speaker 2: he's too dangerous to walk out of prison if he's
25:44
Speaker 2: maintaining his. Innocence but if he had just said he was,
25:47
Speaker 2: guilty you were going to let him, go. Right and
25:50
Speaker 2: then to top it all, off the prosecutor, says we oppose,
25:53
Speaker 2: bail but if you're going to set, bail set it
25:57
Speaker 2: at fifty, thousand and the court Said i'm going to
26:00
Speaker 2: set it at five hundred.
26:01
Speaker 1: THOUSAND i, mean what master do these people, serve because
26:06
Speaker 1: it certainly isn't. Justice And, ron can you take us
26:10
Speaker 1: back to that moment when they offered you the plea
26:12
Speaker 1: where if you just accepted it and said you were,
26:14
Speaker 1: guilty that you could walk out the door the next,
26:17
Speaker 1: day right the very next, day after thirty years in.
26:20
Speaker 1: PRISON i, mean what went through your mind in that.
26:24
Speaker 3: MOMENT i thought about that for a split, second AND i, said,
26:27
Speaker 3: well IF i give, In i've been Saying i'm minison
26:30
Speaker 3: for thirty. Years, also NOW i won't change my. STORY i,
26:34
Speaker 3: said you, know the worst they can do if they
26:36
Speaker 3: reconvict me is give me a no life. Sentence they
26:39
Speaker 3: already took everything from. Me my mom died in twenty,
26:43
Speaker 3: ten my brother died WHILE i was in. Prison i'm
26:47
Speaker 3: living up here with my sister now helping. Her she
26:49
Speaker 3: supported me for thirty, years and it's my turn to
26:51
Speaker 3: give back help. Her so by not giving, in if
26:56
Speaker 3: somebody hears about my, case that's in the same position
27:00
Speaker 3: to take a plea. Bargain i'm not holding it against.
27:02
Speaker 3: Them you, know it's their personal. Choice but if they
27:05
Speaker 3: look at me and they take some strength and, say,
27:08
Speaker 3: Hey i'm, innocent let's prove. It don't give into these.
27:13
Speaker 4: Bastards it's incredible to hear you say that you thought
27:25
Speaker 4: about it for a split.
27:26
Speaker 1: Second it's like you've already seen the worst aspects of our,
27:31
Speaker 1: system so you knew what they could do to. You
27:35
Speaker 1: it took a lot of, courage and like you, said
27:37
Speaker 1: everybody makes that choice. Differently it's another sort of sick
27:42
Speaker 1: thing about our system that people are put into that,
27:44
Speaker 1: position having already been through the unbelievable trauma of drawing
27:49
Speaker 1: fulm incarceration for, decades and then faced with possibly waiting
27:54
Speaker 1: years for another trial and then potentially being framed. Again
27:59
Speaker 1: but you stood by your guns and ultimately that was
28:02
Speaker 1: clearly the right, decision and all of us are thrilled
28:07
Speaker 1: that you've been, vindicated, exonerated and proven to have been
28:11
Speaker 1: telling the truth all. Along vanessa helped me out here
28:15
Speaker 1: because this is really it's. EVIL i, mean what they
28:18
Speaker 1: did to him is, evil, RIGHT i mean that's not
28:20
Speaker 1: too strong of a.
28:21
Speaker 2: Word, WELL i guess it's not when you consider that
28:25
Speaker 2: the district attorney Leyla's on who was handling his, case
28:29
Speaker 2: had been exposed for having a little toy electric chair
28:33
Speaker 2: on her. DESK i think you've definitely identified the mentality
28:37
Speaker 2: that's going on.
28:38
Speaker 1: Here And, RON i want to highlight the fact that
28:41
Speaker 1: you ended up with a literal dream team, here, RIGHT i,
28:44
Speaker 1: mean you Have vanessa and The Innesis. PROJECT i want
28:47
Speaker 1: to also shout out the other good guys, Here Donald
28:50
Speaker 1: samuel And Amanda Clark palmer from The atlanta law firm
28:53
Speaker 1: Of Garland samuel And. Loebe my understanding is that they
28:57
Speaker 1: played a really significant role in, this AM i.
29:00
Speaker 3: Right, Yes, Yes in twenty thirteen when first came on.
29:04
Speaker 3: Board that was such a relief over the years talking
29:07
Speaker 3: on the, phone getting the information about my case and
29:10
Speaker 3: learning more and seeing how the process. Works it's, amazing Especially,
29:15
Speaker 3: vanessa and now That i'm out have access to needing
29:18
Speaker 3: that SO i could see the scope of The unison,
29:20
Speaker 3: project how many people they helped and affected their lives
29:23
Speaker 3: in a positive. Way don And amanda In, Georgia, vanessa
29:28
Speaker 3: all the, paralegals the law, STUDENTS i can name them.
29:31
Speaker 3: All i'm in their.
29:32
Speaker 2: Debt and we did ultimately work with The Georgia andson's
29:35
Speaker 2: project as. Well they were really instrumental when we were
29:39
Speaker 2: fighting to get THE dna testing and have been a
29:42
Speaker 2: great partner with.
29:43
Speaker 1: Us so ultimately justice was delayed by three, decades but not.
29:47
Speaker 1: Denied In june twenty, Twenty District Attorney lala Is, on
29:51
Speaker 1: one of the major villains in this. Case in an
29:53
Speaker 1: ironic twist of, fate her good fortune was the best
29:57
Speaker 1: thing that could have happened For ron because when she
30:00
Speaker 1: was appointed to A Superior court judgeship and her chief,
30:03
Speaker 1: Deputy randy, McGinley was sworn in as the NEW da
30:06
Speaker 1: then also elected That, november he promised the review Of ron's.
30:10
Speaker 1: Case at this, Point ron was already out on, bail
30:13
Speaker 1: but still not free until On august twenty, fifth twenty twenty,
30:17
Speaker 1: one d McGinley had Reviewed ron's case and dismissed all the.
30:22
Speaker 3: Charges on That dayness called, Me she cried and, said you're.
30:26
Speaker 3: Free they dropped the charges like it stunned. ME i, said,
30:29
Speaker 3: nah it took a couple of days of walking around
30:33
Speaker 3: and letting us sink. In i'm finally. Free, then you,
30:37
Speaker 3: know you start thinking about how many more people still
30:40
Speaker 3: in prison that have no, chance have no, help and
30:45
Speaker 3: it hurts you, know it bothers you because after so
30:47
Speaker 3: many years in, prison my, psyche you, know is still
30:50
Speaker 3: there with them. People it's something THAT i can't let it.
30:53
Speaker 3: Go and there's no tone how many countless people that
30:57
Speaker 3: are still, innocent still in prison with no, help never
31:00
Speaker 3: go and get no. Help SO i feel. Blessed don't
31:03
Speaker 3: take nothing for, granted no. More just one day at a.
31:06
Speaker 1: Time, Yeah and it's really incredible to have you here,
31:10
Speaker 1: today just weeks since you were fully. Exonerated so for
31:15
Speaker 1: those of you who are moved By ron's story and
31:18
Speaker 1: who would like to help him as he begins this
31:21
Speaker 1: next chapter of his. Life there's An amazon wish list
31:25
Speaker 1: as well as A mightycause dot com. Story we're gonna
31:29
Speaker 1: put links to both of these in the bio where
31:31
Speaker 1: you can donate to Help. Ron so please go click
31:35
Speaker 1: on the link in the. Bio do it. Now we're
31:37
Speaker 1: going to join you in doing so here At Ronful
31:39
Speaker 1: conviction as. Well, so now this is a part of
31:42
Speaker 1: the show Called Closing, arguments and it works like. This
31:45
Speaker 1: first of, ALL i thank you Again Ron jacobson for
31:49
Speaker 1: having a courage to come here and share your incredible,
31:51
Speaker 1: story and of Course Vanessa popkin for just being such a,
31:57
Speaker 1: superwoman freedom fighter all around just awesome Human and so
32:03
Speaker 1: thanks to both of you for being here on the.
32:06
Speaker 1: Show and now Closing arguments works like. THIS i turn
32:09
Speaker 1: my mic, off kick back in my, chair leave my headphones,
32:13
Speaker 1: on and just leave your microphones on so you can
32:17
Speaker 1: share any other thoughts that we may have left, out
32:21
Speaker 1: or anything that's on your mind of any. Kind So,
32:25
Speaker 1: vanessa with all due respect to, you will save the
32:27
Speaker 1: best for. Last and of Course, ron that's. You you're
32:30
Speaker 1: the featured guest. Here So, vanessa once you go first
32:33
Speaker 1: and then just hand it off To, ron and that's
32:35
Speaker 1: how we'll close out the.
32:36
Speaker 2: Show you, know being here today and listening To ron,
32:39
Speaker 2: speak it's just hitting, me particularly now his incredible strength
32:45
Speaker 2: and fortitude to have turned down that. Offer and we
32:48
Speaker 2: just know how. Coerceive the legal system is pre, trial
32:53
Speaker 2: the state tries to extort guilty please to resolve. Cases
32:57
Speaker 2: the stakes are so high that you're incentivized to just
32:59
Speaker 2: take a pleaven when you're, innocent or just give up
33:02
Speaker 2: your constitutional rights to a. Trial SO i am respecting
33:07
Speaker 2: the amount of courage and strength that took, You ron
33:10
Speaker 2: to make that decision and stand up to the, system
33:12
Speaker 2: And i'm so proud that you. Prevailed it's making me
33:15
Speaker 2: think about the judges again that the person really dragged
33:19
Speaker 2: this out through so many years is now on the.
33:22
Speaker 2: Bench we need to get progressive prosecutors in, place but
33:26
Speaker 2: we also need to make sure that they're judges on
33:29
Speaker 2: the bench who are going to also be in line with.
33:33
Speaker 2: Change and SO i think those are the Takeaways i'm.
33:37
Speaker 2: Experiencing in addition To, Ron you're just an all around
33:40
Speaker 2: such an incredible. Person and you, know When ron got
33:43
Speaker 2: out while he was still fighting to get the charges.
33:46
Speaker 2: Dismissed he started going on social media and he was On.
33:48
Speaker 2: Facebook and when you're representing someone who could face a,
33:51
Speaker 2: retrial it's a real stressor to have them out there
33:54
Speaker 2: making all these. Comments SO i thought about reaching out
33:57
Speaker 2: To ron and, saying, hey fall back a little. BIT
34:00
Speaker 2: i was reading what he was saying and his perspective
34:03
Speaker 2: on the legal system and, change and it was just
34:05
Speaker 2: so right on THAT i was, Like i'm not saying
34:07
Speaker 2: anything keep going.
34:08
Speaker 3: Wrong, well you, know my heart and soul. Bleeds oh
34:12
Speaker 3: my brothers and sisters still behind.
34:14
Speaker 1: The walls with no.
34:15
Speaker 3: Hope and IF i could be a voice in the
34:18
Speaker 3: wilderness to help, them you, know that's my goal in
34:21
Speaker 3: life right? Now do you use my exoneration to help
34:25
Speaker 3: the next person pay, forward whatever it. Takes and The
34:30
Speaker 3: Innocent project and The Innocent, network they do incredible work
34:34
Speaker 3: AND i thank them every.
34:36
Speaker 1: Day thank you for listening To Wrongful. Conviction please support
34:49
Speaker 1: your local innocence organizations and go to the links in
34:52
Speaker 1: our bio to see how you can. Help i'd like
34:54
Speaker 1: to thank our production Team Connor, Hall Justin, Golden Jeff,
34:58
Speaker 1: clyburn And kevin wardis the music on this show as
35:01
Speaker 1: always is by three TIME oscar nominated Composer Jay. Ralph
35:06
Speaker 1: be sure to follow us On instagram At Wrongful, conviction
35:09
Speaker 1: On twitter at Wrong, conviction and On facebook At Wrongful Conviction.
35:13
Speaker 1: Podcast Wrongful conviction is a production Of lava For Good
35:16
Speaker 1: podcasts in association With Signal Company number one