Latest / The SME Stream / Chris Hipkins: Labour Leader talks capital gains tax, NCEA curriculum, gang patch ban live in studio

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Chris Hipkins: Labour Leader talks capital gains tax, NCEA curriculum, gang patch ban live in studio · The SME Stream

0:00
Speaker 1: News Talk said be eleven past ten. Leader of the
0:02
Speaker 1: Opposition Chris Hipkins joins me for our last catch up
0:05
Speaker 1: for the year, and sad news to start.
0:07
Speaker 2: Really sad news.
0:08
Speaker 3: Actually, I just heard about Nicki Kay as I was
0:10
Speaker 3: coming into the studio this morning, and Nicki and I
0:13
Speaker 3: both arrived at Parliament at the same time. We had
0:15
Speaker 3: a lot of common interests, so I think you could
0:17
Speaker 3: probably say we were frenemies for the time that we
0:19
Speaker 3: were in parliament, you know, opponents, but we actually got
0:21
Speaker 3: on well together and we both had a passion for
0:25
Speaker 3: education and probably agreed on education more than we disagreed. Actually,
0:29
Speaker 3: I thought Nicki was a really passionate member of Parliament,
0:33
Speaker 3: very diligent, did her research, you know, liked to know
0:36
Speaker 3: what she was talking about, didn't rush to decisions until
0:38
Speaker 3: she had actually done the analysis of understanding the situation.
0:44
Speaker 3: So I was very sad I hadn't I haven't been
0:46
Speaker 3: in touch with her for a few years, and I
0:47
Speaker 3: hadn't realized that her cancer was back. So yeah, a
0:51
Speaker 3: bit of a shock this morning.
0:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. I really enjoyed her too, whenever I
0:55
Speaker 1: caught up with her. She was jolly hard working and
0:57
Speaker 1: as you say, completely passionate about educ.
1:00
Speaker 3: So yeah, absolutely, And you know, I think you've got
1:03
Speaker 3: to hand it to her. She took the Auckland central
1:06
Speaker 3: seat off Labor and held it through quite a range
1:09
Speaker 3: of different electoral cycles. And she did that through sheer
1:13
Speaker 3: hard work.
1:13
Speaker 1: It wasn't it.
1:14
Speaker 3: You know, You've really got to acknowledge somebody who just
1:16
Speaker 3: puts their heart and soul into that. And even when
1:19
Speaker 3: the tide went out for national she held onto a
1:21
Speaker 3: seat And I think that is because she worked so
1:23
Speaker 3: damn hard.
1:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, she was a jolly good electric mb and a
1:27
Speaker 1: very good minister, right CGT. It's just not going to
1:31
Speaker 1: go away.
1:33
Speaker 3: I think we do need to have this honest conversation
1:35
Speaker 3: as a country about saying we can't. You know, we're
1:37
Speaker 3: going to have to. Government's going to have to pay
1:39
Speaker 3: for everything somehow, whether it's more roads you want to build,
1:42
Speaker 3: whether it's the health system, whether it's the education system.
1:44
Speaker 2: Government has to get money from somewhere.
1:47
Speaker 3: And if you compare New Zealand to other countries around
1:50
Speaker 3: the world, we get a much greater share as a
1:52
Speaker 3: government of our money from personal income tax compared to
1:55
Speaker 3: other countries. So about seventy percent of government tax revenue
1:59
Speaker 3: comes from personal and taxes. The OECD average is a
2:02
Speaker 3: lot lot lower than that, it's probably half of that,
2:05
Speaker 3: and that's because we don't have other forms of tax
2:08
Speaker 3: like capital gains which is very common. You know, I
2:10
Speaker 3: think you Sanah does. It's fascinating debate about capital gains
2:13
Speaker 3: tax in New Zealand. We've been talking about it the
2:14
Speaker 3: whole time I've been a parliamentarian and it's almost like
2:17
Speaker 3: this big radical idea. Actually, we're one of the few
2:19
Speaker 3: countries in the world that doesn't have some form of
2:22
Speaker 3: taxation in that area.
2:23
Speaker 1: And yet you could have introduced to capital gains tax.
2:26
Speaker 1: You had senior ministers who'd worked very hard on a
2:30
Speaker 1: capital gains tax proposal, but you didn't accept that.
2:34
Speaker 3: Well, we had said Jazinder had said in twenty twenty
2:36
Speaker 3: that we wouldn't introduce his capital gains.
2:38
Speaker 1: She's so hard ass on that because I know Winston
2:40
Speaker 1: Peter's stuck as orin, but she didn't have to be
2:43
Speaker 1: quite so vehement.
2:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, and look, I mean plenty of internal debate about Jessinder.
2:48
Speaker 2: Yeah.
2:48
Speaker 3: Well, I do think that when you take over from
2:51
Speaker 3: someone midterm, you can't just change the commitments that you
2:53
Speaker 3: campaigned on. Ultimately, we were elected on that commitment in
2:56
Speaker 3: twenty twenty, and I don't think I had a mandate
2:58
Speaker 3: to change that the proposal.
3:00
Speaker 1: To another area.
3:01
Speaker 3: The proposal well like, if anything, I was dialing back
3:03
Speaker 3: some of the things that we hadn't campaigned on. But
3:06
Speaker 3: you know, the proposal that was developed in the run
3:08
Speaker 3: up to the twenty three election was not a capital
3:11
Speaker 3: gains tax, or was a wealth tax, and that's a
3:13
Speaker 3: more complicated area, accidens and you know, capital gains tax
3:17
Speaker 3: is an area where we are an international outlawer, and
3:19
Speaker 3: not having one a wealth tax would we would be
3:21
Speaker 3: one of the only countries in the world to have one.
3:23
Speaker 3: So I think those are different things.
3:25
Speaker 1: Okay, Tony are very good morning to you.
3:29
Speaker 4: Yes, good morning, Curie, Good morning mister. Just a quick question,
3:33
Speaker 4: if your return to government, would you keep the gang
3:38
Speaker 4: patch man? And if not, why not?
3:40
Speaker 1: That's interesting. I had a text from Christopher who was
3:42
Speaker 1: asking much the same time.
3:44
Speaker 3: Well, the Prime Minigs could just asked me across the house,
3:46
Speaker 3: but look, it's not something that we would change. You know,
3:50
Speaker 3: more than have been a priority for me, but it's
3:52
Speaker 3: not something we're going to go back on. Ultimately, once
3:54
Speaker 3: it's done, it's done as far as I'm concerned.
3:56
Speaker 1: There you go pretty strong answer there. A lot of
4:00
Speaker 1: people have said that find to take tax, but there
4:04
Speaker 1: has to be in a cord between the government and
4:07
Speaker 1: the tax payers. There has to be a trust that
4:09
Speaker 1: you're going to spend it wisely, and I think with
4:11
Speaker 1: a lot of the big spending projects that amounted to
4:14
Speaker 1: little labour's lost a bit of that trust.
4:16
Speaker 3: With the electroc I think that's a fair point, and
4:18
Speaker 3: I think that one of the things that's one of
4:20
Speaker 3: the reasons you can't talk about tax and isolation. You know,
4:22
Speaker 3: whenever you talk about text, you've got to talk about
4:24
Speaker 3: what you want to do with it. You've also got
4:25
Speaker 3: to talk about how you grow the economy so that
4:27
Speaker 3: you can ultimately, you know, so that it doesn't become
4:30
Speaker 3: such a heavy burden for people. And all of those
4:32
Speaker 3: things are interrelated. So at the moment, our tax system,
4:35
Speaker 3: if you like, disincentivizes hard work, you know, people going
4:39
Speaker 3: out and early salary and wages, and incentivizes speculative investment.
4:43
Speaker 2: And I think we need to tilt that.
4:44
Speaker 3: We need to actually say, rather than a speculative investment,
4:47
Speaker 3: let's invest in the productive part of the economy. What
4:50
Speaker 3: are the things that are encouraging And I understand this.
4:53
Speaker 3: I know plenty of people who have bought rental houses
4:54
Speaker 3: because actually all the incentives are is a good way
4:57
Speaker 3: of saving money, it's a good way of putting fund
5:00
Speaker 3: socide for your retirement is to buy a rental house.
5:02
Speaker 3: But that's not going to make us richer as a country,
5:04
Speaker 3: whereas building businesses that create good, well paying jobs, that's
5:08
Speaker 3: the sort of stuff we actually need.
5:09
Speaker 2: To see more of. So how do we just tilt the.
5:12
Speaker 3: Investment playing field so that people feel like they want
5:14
Speaker 3: to put more money, more of their hard earned savings
5:17
Speaker 3: into things that are actually going to generate better jobs.
5:19
Speaker 3: And so, you know, all of these things are interrelated.
5:22
Speaker 3: You can't just say we're want to tax this and
5:24
Speaker 3: spend it on that. It's more complicated than that.
5:27
Speaker 1: A lot of people have also asked how you would
5:29
Speaker 1: grow the economy labors, you know, and that's the old
5:31
Speaker 1: trope that you know, labour's good at spending money, national
5:34
Speaker 1: is good at, you know, being sensible husbands of other
5:39
Speaker 1: people's money. So how would you grow the economy Because
5:43
Speaker 1: a lot of small business operators said that they were
5:46
Speaker 1: really strangled by red tape, by the extra holidays, by
5:50
Speaker 1: and I get that you have to look after workers,
5:52
Speaker 1: but when you're talking about growing the economy, how do
5:54
Speaker 1: you do that without strangling it?
5:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I get that. I understand the public perception.
5:59
Speaker 3: But actually, if you look at the numbers over the
6:01
Speaker 3: last twenty five years or so, the economy is actually
6:03
Speaker 3: growing slightly marginally faster under labor governments than under national government.
6:07
Speaker 3: So that doesn't actually stack up in terms of the
6:10
Speaker 3: real world. But I get that that's the perception. The
6:13
Speaker 3: perception I think is national business people, therefore they must
6:15
Speaker 3: understand the economy better. Actually, the numbers, the evidence, the
6:19
Speaker 3: track record does not bear that out.
6:22
Speaker 1: Is that taking into account global financial crises, earthquakes, pandemics and.
6:26
Speaker 3: The like as that like the light Well, yes, because
6:28
Speaker 3: I mean if you the national party had the global
6:30
Speaker 3: financial crisis, we had the global pandemic. You know, there
6:32
Speaker 3: are economic shocks any government's going to experience. But I think,
6:36
Speaker 3: how do we grow the economy. We have to diversify
6:38
Speaker 3: the economy. That is one of the key ways we're
6:40
Speaker 3: going to grow the economy. There's only so many cows.
6:43
Speaker 3: We can put on our paddocks. There's only so many
6:45
Speaker 3: trees we can plant. If we want to be richer,
6:47
Speaker 3: we're going to have to do different things. We're going
6:49
Speaker 3: to have to grow our creative sector. You know, Paul
6:52
Speaker 3: Callahan all those years ago wrote that book From Waall
6:54
Speaker 3: to Wetter. We're still having that debate now.
6:56
Speaker 2: You know.
6:56
Speaker 3: It's about and which is a great example. Zero is
6:59
Speaker 3: a great example Ian Taylor's Animation Research Limited. These are
7:03
Speaker 3: kind of areas where we've used something different, that we've
7:05
Speaker 3: offered some innovations, some ingenuity. The question is how do
7:09
Speaker 3: we get fifty of those companies rather than the half
7:12
Speaker 3: dozen that we might rattle off.
7:13
Speaker 1: Now, well, when I look at I went to a
7:14
Speaker 1: dinner for the Center for Brain Research, and that is
7:17
Speaker 1: a center of excellence globally. You know that's not just
7:20
Speaker 1: very good for New Zealand, but.
7:22
Speaker 3: There's amazing innovations. A couple of weeks ago here in Auckland,
7:25
Speaker 3: I went and visited a company called car Technologies. They
7:28
Speaker 3: have developed the world's first AI sign language dictionary. So basically,
7:33
Speaker 3: now if you're they can do text, sorry's voice to
7:38
Speaker 3: text to sign, all done digitally, and that's amazing technology
7:42
Speaker 3: and one of the first places in the world to
7:44
Speaker 3: do it.
7:45
Speaker 2: Isn't that awesome?
7:46
Speaker 3: Like those are the sorts of businesses we should say, hey,
7:48
Speaker 3: let's take this to the world.
7:49
Speaker 2: What do we need to do to back those businesses
7:51
Speaker 2: to really grow?
7:52
Speaker 1: Well, what happens is generally that a lot of these
7:54
Speaker 1: very clever people and entrepreneurs get grants, then they get
7:59
Speaker 1: to a certain size, and then they sell. They have
8:02
Speaker 1: to sell to grow, But we don't see there's a taxpayer.
8:05
Speaker 1: We don't see a return on investment in either the
8:07
Speaker 1: money that was given or jobs or ongoing opportunity.
8:12
Speaker 3: I've been speaking to a lot of these businesses and
8:14
Speaker 3: they talk about what's called the value of death. So basically,
8:17
Speaker 3: between you know, getting an idea that's going to grow
8:20
Speaker 3: a business, that's going to create a business, whether it's
8:22
Speaker 3: a new product you want to launch, a new service
8:24
Speaker 3: or whatever, through to getting that to the point where
8:27
Speaker 3: you can attract equity to people to invest in it.
8:30
Speaker 3: There is this thing with the value of death. So
8:32
Speaker 3: it's basically, how do you get to the point where
8:34
Speaker 3: investors are going to say, that's a business that's going somewhere.
8:37
Speaker 2: I want to be part.
8:38
Speaker 3: Of that, there's a valley that we have to be
8:42
Speaker 3: able to bridge for those businesses. And I think government
8:44
Speaker 3: can play a role here, of course, but it's not
8:46
Speaker 3: just about government putting money, and it's about government making
8:48
Speaker 3: sure that the investment approach for the country is right
8:52
Speaker 3: so that those investors. And think about the billions of
8:54
Speaker 3: dollars that we've gotten Keypi Saver for example, most of
8:57
Speaker 3: it is invested offshore. Let's get some more of that
9:00
Speaker 3: invested in Kiwi businesses. That's where government can play a
9:03
Speaker 3: role in making sure that all of those sorts of
9:05
Speaker 3: things can.
9:06
Speaker 1: Happen by directing, not.
9:09
Speaker 3: Certainly not by directing, but by making sure that there
9:12
Speaker 3: are opportunities for those companies to invest in those businesses.
9:17
Speaker 1: Tax again, Neville, good morning to.
9:19
Speaker 5: You, Good morning, thank you, Good morning, Chris. I just
9:25
Speaker 5: wonder whether or not the I don't mind paying a
9:28
Speaker 5: fair tax, and I don't. I think most Kiwis are
9:32
Speaker 5: in the same boat as myself, but would Labor if
9:35
Speaker 5: they got back into power consider raising the tax rate
9:39
Speaker 5: for Ewi mary identities and businesses because they are only
9:43
Speaker 5: paying seventeen point five percent, where the rest of us
9:46
Speaker 5: are paying upwards of thirty to thirty nine percent. Business
9:50
Speaker 5: is paying thirty percent thirty nine percent, And these EWI
9:53
Speaker 5: and Marry organizations own farms, fisheries, forestry and tourists, are
10:00
Speaker 5: attractions and operations, and the rest of us are supporting them.
10:04
Speaker 1: So do you also mean you'd include charitable organizations as well,
10:07
Speaker 1: nevil like Sanitarium.
10:10
Speaker 5: Well, I think that sort of comes into it too.
10:12
Speaker 5: That look, I think we all need to have a
10:15
Speaker 5: look at a fair tax system. But when some parts
10:20
Speaker 5: of the community are only paying seventeen point five percent
10:24
Speaker 5: and the rest of us are paying huge amounts of tax,
10:28
Speaker 5: surely and both parties have dropped the ball on this.
10:31
Speaker 5: And good good on the Marry identities for organizing this
10:36
Speaker 5: with their their land settlements. But come on, we've got
10:41
Speaker 5: to it's got to be fair for all of us.
10:43
Speaker 3: I think the tax system does need to be fair,
10:45
Speaker 3: and I do think there are anomalies in the tax
10:47
Speaker 3: system now when it comes to charities that are doing
10:50
Speaker 3: commercial business. You know, Sanitarium is an example of that,
10:54
Speaker 3: where you know you've got a they say they're a charity,
10:57
Speaker 3: but actually they're running one of the biggest and most
10:59
Speaker 3: popular brands. You know, commercial brands in New Zealand, and
11:03
Speaker 3: we do need to look again at that. In terms
11:05
Speaker 3: of EE, I think that we do need to distinguish
11:07
Speaker 3: between those that are purely business entities. Many of those
11:10
Speaker 3: we do now have business entities that are trading commercially,
11:13
Speaker 3: very successful and charitable and charitable entity. So I think
11:16
Speaker 3: that I think it is the same debate, and we
11:19
Speaker 3: do need to make sure we're being fair and we're
11:20
Speaker 3: being equal in the way we treat those entities.
11:22
Speaker 1: And so would you change a tax the tax system
11:24
Speaker 1: to show that.
11:26
Speaker 3: I think we've got to look at that. We've got
11:28
Speaker 3: to look at a clearer definition of what's a charitable
11:30
Speaker 3: purpose and that would apply to an EWE business as
11:34
Speaker 3: much as to a business like sanitarium.
11:38
Speaker 1: Good luck if you're in coalition, was getting that one passed?
11:42
Speaker 1: If you would like to put your question to Chris Hipkins,
11:45
Speaker 1: the leader of the opposition, now is your time to
11:47
Speaker 1: do so? Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty.
11:51
Speaker 2: Question for Chris.
11:51
Speaker 1: Surely a wealth tax and potentially a capital gains tax
11:56
Speaker 1: would be charged back to tenants as landlord seek to
11:58
Speaker 1: maintain post tax turns. Rents would go up again under
12:02
Speaker 1: labor What would you do to offset the higher rent?
12:05
Speaker 1: Isn't that something that Australia is looking at too. The
12:07
Speaker 1: Greens there is saying, look, the capital gains tax is
12:10
Speaker 1: hitting renters.
12:11
Speaker 3: Well, anything that you do around tax you've got to
12:14
Speaker 3: look at when it's charged. So a capital gains tax
12:18
Speaker 3: typically you would only charge that on the realization of
12:20
Speaker 3: the capital gain. And that is one of the problems
12:22
Speaker 3: with a wealth tax is if you charge somebody a
12:25
Speaker 3: wealth tax based on the book value of something, that
12:27
Speaker 3: money still has to come from somewhere and if they
12:29
Speaker 3: haven't realized any income from it at that point, then
12:33
Speaker 3: that cost ultimately is likely to be transferred on. So
12:36
Speaker 3: if you're a farmer, for example, when you owned a
12:38
Speaker 3: farm that was above the wealth tax value, it doesn't
12:41
Speaker 3: necessarily mean you flush with cash. So you know, you
12:44
Speaker 3: might be when you sell it, but you're not when
12:45
Speaker 3: you're farming it. And so that is one of the
12:48
Speaker 3: I think challenges in the wealth tax area, and it
12:51
Speaker 3: is one of but also I mean, I think anything
12:54
Speaker 3: in the wealth tax space you have to look at
12:56
Speaker 3: what's happening around the world. There you can't in New Zealand,
12:58
Speaker 3: I think would be very bold, something completely in isolation
13:01
Speaker 3: from the rest of the world, because, as we know,
13:03
Speaker 3: wealth is very mobile and will likely move to the
13:06
Speaker 3: places where it won't.
13:07
Speaker 1: Pay that It's interesting though, too when you talk about farmers,
13:10
Speaker 1: and when you talk about small and medium business owners,
13:12
Speaker 1: of which this country has many. I caught up with
13:15
Speaker 1: an old schoolmate and they have been working now on
13:18
Speaker 1: the stud farm for about god must be thirty years.
13:22
Speaker 1: In the last three years they've had disposable income. Everything
13:26
Speaker 1: has gone back into the business or the and this
13:29
Speaker 1: is the story of so many business owners. When they
13:32
Speaker 1: realize their wealth. Quite often they're taking wages and earnings
13:37
Speaker 1: that they have deferred until they sell.
13:41
Speaker 3: And that's right, and the tax system needs to consider
13:43
Speaker 3: that strue and also think about something like farms. You know,
13:47
Speaker 3: we've got a real challenge in New Zealand around farms.
13:48
Speaker 3: I've been talking to the farmers quite a lot lately,
13:50
Speaker 3: as you might have heard.
13:51
Speaker 1: How's the reception.
13:52
Speaker 2: It's been really good.
13:53
Speaker 3: But you know, there's some challenges with farmers like, for example,
13:56
Speaker 3: those who are in farming noun and have been for
13:58
Speaker 3: forty odd years have made us and capital gain on
14:01
Speaker 3: their farms. The next generation of farmers are unlikely to
14:04
Speaker 3: make that same level of capital gain, and so that
14:06
Speaker 3: changes the economic dynamics for the next generation of farmers
14:10
Speaker 3: who are looking at taking over farms now. And I
14:12
Speaker 3: don't think that's something we've really grappled with as a country.
14:15
Speaker 3: And those farmers who are nearing retirement are wanting to
14:17
Speaker 3: bank their capital gains, but the next generation of farmers
14:20
Speaker 3: are saying, well, if we can't count on a similar
14:22
Speaker 3: level of capital gain in the future, then actually it's
14:25
Speaker 3: going to be really hard for us to buy the farms.
14:28
Speaker 3: So I think these are things that you know, I
14:30
Speaker 3: know the farming community is talking a lot about those
14:32
Speaker 3: sorts of things at the.
14:33
Speaker 1: Moment, Kevin, relevant question for you to Chris Hipkins.
14:37
Speaker 6: Then, on that note, Yes, good morning, mister Hipkins. Thanks
14:42
Speaker 6: for taking my question. Look, I've been previously a strong
14:47
Speaker 6: labor supporter, and six years ago when you came in
14:51
Speaker 6: orbit after two or three changes at the top, and
14:53
Speaker 6: appreciate you, NPM, then you'd had a period in opposition benches,
14:59
Speaker 6: and yet when you were successful, it appears as if
15:01
Speaker 6: you'd done no homework or anything in terms of policy
15:05
Speaker 6: and the like. You've since said quite recently that you'll
15:09
Speaker 6: look at things like taxing of charities and this and that.
15:12
Speaker 6: What does look at the mean is there work going
15:15
Speaker 6: on today so that in two years time when you
15:18
Speaker 6: get to Parliament again, will things been done or will
15:21
Speaker 6: we need to spend billions on consultants again.
15:25
Speaker 1: Oh that's good, Kevin. You asked that better than I could.
15:27
Speaker 1: And I think that's a really fair question.
15:29
Speaker 3: I think it's a really good question, Kevin, and a
15:31
Speaker 3: really fair one. I think in some areas we were
15:34
Speaker 3: well prepared, and in some areas we were not well prepared,
15:37
Speaker 3: And I think that's a fair criticism. And then, of
15:39
Speaker 3: course COVID nineteen disrupted some of the preparation that we
15:42
Speaker 3: had done in some areas. Some of the promises we
15:45
Speaker 3: made I think hadn't been properly researched and thought through.
15:47
Speaker 3: So can we build as perhaps the most iconic example,
15:50
Speaker 3: gets surrounded us all the time, promising to build one
15:52
Speaker 3: hundred thousand houses and not having a credible plan for
15:55
Speaker 3: how to actually do that. I think was a major
15:58
Speaker 3: failing of us in opposition last time. So I mean,
16:01
Speaker 3: looking to the future, I think, which is I think,
16:03
Speaker 3: as we your question was going, I've said that next
16:06
Speaker 3: election when we make a promise, I want to us
16:09
Speaker 3: to have done the research they work behind it. I
16:12
Speaker 3: want us to know how much it's going to cost,
16:14
Speaker 3: how we're going to deliver it, what the milestones and
16:16
Speaker 3: delivery are going to be, so that we're not making
16:19
Speaker 3: promises that we can't fulfill, when we're not creating expectations
16:22
Speaker 3: that we can't meet. I do think, you know, I
16:24
Speaker 3: think some of it was overstated, but I think that
16:27
Speaker 3: it's not an unfair criticism.
16:29
Speaker 1: So I guess Keven saying when can we see hard
16:31
Speaker 1: policy and costings?
16:32
Speaker 3: Well, of course those things take time, and they take
16:34
Speaker 3: longer in opposition because you don't have the same level
16:36
Speaker 3: of resources that you have when you're in government.
16:38
Speaker 1: But you've just had it.
16:39
Speaker 2: But well you've just had yeah, six years of it.
16:42
Speaker 3: The world changes regularly. But we are going to you know,
16:46
Speaker 3: we'll start rolling out new policy next year.
16:49
Speaker 1: If you're going to mention COVID, I'm going to mention
16:51
Speaker 1: last administration, not seriously. I mean, when you say we
16:55
Speaker 1: need a capital gains text, I'm like, you were there, Yeah, God, I.
16:58
Speaker 2: Done it, and we said we weren't.
17:00
Speaker 3: I also believe that you have to keep faith with
17:01
Speaker 3: the promises that you make with the electorate, and we
17:03
Speaker 3: said that we weren't going to implement the capital gain stacks.
17:06
Speaker 3: So I don't think you can do things that you know.
17:08
Speaker 3: And that was also criticism of us that in some areas.
17:11
Speaker 3: It's not that we said we wouldn't do them, it's
17:12
Speaker 3: that we didn't tell people we were going to do them.
17:15
Speaker 3: And I think that there was criticism of us in
17:16
Speaker 3: that area, and some of that was.
17:17
Speaker 2: Also for you.
17:18
Speaker 1: I think Barbara Edmonds should always talk about text from
17:21
Speaker 1: hence just a little bit of communications advice there for you.
17:26
Speaker 2: Barbara's doing a fantastic.
17:27
Speaker 1: Is doing a fantastic job. Wow, how catty you sound.
17:32
Speaker 1: I think that's for me.
17:33
Speaker 2: It's not.
17:37
Speaker 1: It could be either one of our No, it's probably me.
17:40
Speaker 1: Scott A very good morning to you.
17:43
Speaker 7: Good morning, Carrie, thanks for taking my call today. Good
17:46
Speaker 7: morning to you Chris as well. I just wanted to
17:49
Speaker 7: ask Chris how you feel about the Spati doing the
17:55
Speaker 7: haka in parliament during the hakoi. Surely you must feel
17:59
Speaker 7: the same about as nationally as on the rules of Parliament.
18:04
Speaker 3: I think you know the rules that we have to
18:05
Speaker 3: be consistent in the application of the rules of Parliament.
18:08
Speaker 3: And the issue here with the hucker is we I
18:10
Speaker 3: think we do need to figure out as a parliament
18:12
Speaker 3: when the hucker is allowable and when it's not, Because
18:14
Speaker 3: we do allow for the hucker regularly in parliament, so
18:18
Speaker 3: it's it's regularly done at the end of people's speeches,
18:21
Speaker 3: it's regularly done at the opening of Parliament and so on.
18:25
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think it's time for us probably to
18:27
Speaker 3: have a conversation about when it should and shouldn't be allowed.
18:30
Speaker 3: We need to involve Mardy in that conversation.
18:33
Speaker 1: I think they'd like to be included.
18:35
Speaker 3: I think they would like to be included, but because
18:36
Speaker 3: I mean, ultimately, I don't think you can appropriate someone's
18:38
Speaker 3: culture and then say, oh, but we only want it
18:40
Speaker 3: when it's convenient to us. So I think we should
18:43
Speaker 3: be upfront about that.
18:45
Speaker 1: Mary, as a coalition partner, you know you're going to
18:48
Speaker 1: need them and the Greens, how do you feel about that?
18:51
Speaker 3: Well, it's early days yet, carry but I think let's
18:55
Speaker 3: see how things shape up closer to the election in
18:57
Speaker 3: terms of what the parties campaign on and what their
18:59
Speaker 3: positions on issues are on. I mean, I remember the
19:02
Speaker 3: Mardi Party took some pretty radical positions between two thousand
19:05
Speaker 3: and five and two thousand and eight, and then spent
19:08
Speaker 3: nine years supporting John Key and Bill English in government.
19:11
Speaker 3: And we're very pragmatic and sort of quite middle of
19:14
Speaker 3: the road insensible during that time. So let's I've said,
19:19
Speaker 3: you know, in the run up to an election, we'd
19:21
Speaker 3: be clear about who we can and can't work with,
19:23
Speaker 3: and we'll do the same thing we did last election.
19:25
Speaker 3: Make sure everybody knows that before the election. But I
19:27
Speaker 3: think it's too too soon to make those calls yet already.
19:31
Speaker 1: Andrew, good morning to you.
19:33
Speaker 8: Good morning, Chris. I'd like to talk about accountability in
19:39
Speaker 8: the public service, and the two examples that I'll lean
19:43
Speaker 8: on are the need in hospital. So we have a
19:47
Speaker 8: cost blowout of you know, going from three hundred million
19:53
Speaker 8: to going to four hundred million, and then and then
19:57
Speaker 8: it's being stated I and that number one double. You
20:02
Speaker 8: know in the public service people people would be prosecuted
20:05
Speaker 8: for those sorts of blowouts. And now also I'd like
20:09
Speaker 8: to talk about one point two billion dollars spent on
20:14
Speaker 8: mental health in your term and no tangible outcome. Where
20:20
Speaker 8: is the accountability of that? Surely somebody with that without.
20:24
Speaker 9: Wanting to paint too broad a brush should be going
20:27
Speaker 9: to jail. All that money, my money, and your money
20:31
Speaker 9: and everybody else's money that we're talking to has has
20:36
Speaker 9: been squandered.
20:37
Speaker 8: So what's your view on that and what do you
20:40
Speaker 8: propose to do about it?
20:42
Speaker 3: So if you take something like the building and the
20:43
Speaker 3: need in hospital, you know, a lot of building and
20:46
Speaker 3: construction projects have seen huge cost escalation, not just in
20:49
Speaker 3: the public sector, but in the private sector too. I mean,
20:51
Speaker 3: just just around the corner from here, look at the
20:52
Speaker 3: cost of the convention center. It ended up being way
20:56
Speaker 3: way higher than what they're started out with. It had
20:58
Speaker 3: a fire, but the cost had already blown out even
21:00
Speaker 3: before the fire, you know. And I mean maybe that's
21:03
Speaker 3: not a good example because of the effect of the fire,
21:05
Speaker 3: but you'll find that in building a construction everywhere, and
21:07
Speaker 3: that's not unique to the public sector. On the issues
21:10
Speaker 3: of mental health, you know, some of the things, some
21:14
Speaker 3: of the investments you make in mental health you don't
21:15
Speaker 3: see an immediate return on. So over a million counseling
21:19
Speaker 3: sessions have been delivered through that funding. You know, you
21:22
Speaker 3: don't immediately see a benefit from that training. More mental
21:25
Speaker 3: health professionals which is where a lot of that money
21:27
Speaker 3: ended up being invested. That gets you the workforce that
21:31
Speaker 3: you need to improve mental health outcomes in the longer term.
21:34
Speaker 3: Putting money into more money into schools to support you know,
21:37
Speaker 3: counseling and mental health support for kids, you don't always
21:40
Speaker 3: see that, you know, a return on that straight away.
21:43
Speaker 3: I think that's one of the challenges with mental health.
21:46
Speaker 3: It's one of the most complex areas of government policy
21:49
Speaker 3: to try and get better outcomes for key wes. There's
21:51
Speaker 3: so much in there that can have an impact on
21:53
Speaker 3: people's mental health.
21:54
Speaker 1: And yet under the Clerk government, families patients in the
21:58
Speaker 1: community were promised that when institutions were disestablished, there would
22:03
Speaker 1: be that support in the community, and we simply haven't
22:05
Speaker 1: seen that.
22:06
Speaker 3: I don't I think I think it's too simplistic to
22:08
Speaker 3: say it's just that. I mean, I think there are there.
22:10
Speaker 1: Well, there's addiction issues as well. There are people, but
22:12
Speaker 1: aspect to get out with addictions.
22:14
Speaker 3: The people who were at institutionalized that would be at
22:16
Speaker 3: the extreme end of mental health distress.
22:18
Speaker 2: What we're seeing a lot a lot.
22:19
Speaker 3: More of now is stuff that wouldn't have traditionally was
22:23
Speaker 3: a lot of institution.
22:25
Speaker 1: Closed them a lot of it too. I mean, know
22:26
Speaker 1: they were expensive, but also because they shouldn't have been there.
22:29
Speaker 1: They could have been in the community with the appropriate health.
22:31
Speaker 3: Absolutely, but a lot of the mental health crisis that
22:34
Speaker 3: we're facing at the moment is amongst young people, and
22:37
Speaker 3: it is just the world has changed so much. You know,
22:40
Speaker 3: the stresses, the strains that they deal with, the online
22:43
Speaker 3: you know, the online bullying, it's real.
22:45
Speaker 2: It's very real. Young people's expectations.
22:47
Speaker 3: Of themselves also, I mean, let's let's just all take
22:50
Speaker 3: a step back here and say, let's give these kids
22:52
Speaker 3: a break. I go and do school prize givings, and
22:55
Speaker 3: you know, it's not uncommon to speak to kids who
22:57
Speaker 3: have won all these awards and done all these amazing
23:00
Speaker 3: things and the captain of this and there whatever, and
23:02
Speaker 3: you talk to them and they're like, oh, I don't
23:04
Speaker 3: think I'm doing enough. They're like, far out, give yourself
23:06
Speaker 3: a break, you know. And that's the pressure that you.
23:09
Speaker 2: Have to look to.
23:10
Speaker 10: It.
23:10
Speaker 1: The effect that the school's been closed for two years,
23:13
Speaker 1: and not all over the country, but in many parts
23:16
Speaker 1: of the country. I know you said, you know, at
23:20
Speaker 1: one point, as Ministry of Education, getting the schools open
23:23
Speaker 1: was a priority for you, Yet for a lot of
23:25
Speaker 1: the time they weren't. The damage that's been done to
23:27
Speaker 1: those kids where is only going to be realized over
23:31
Speaker 1: the next few years.
23:32
Speaker 3: We had some of the lowest levels of school closures
23:34
Speaker 3: as a result from COVID nineteen anywhere in the world.
23:36
Speaker 2: So this is a this is a phenomenon that.
23:38
Speaker 1: Doesn't starting to see. I'm talking about New Zealand and
23:42
Speaker 1: trying to get an educated workforce and a healthy workforce,
23:45
Speaker 1: and a workforce that can participate in talk to other
23:49
Speaker 1: people from across generations. You know, the damage that has
23:52
Speaker 1: been done.
23:53
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think you can shoot all that
23:54
Speaker 3: back to COVID, though I do think COVID had an impact.
23:57
Speaker 1: I'm saying I'm not shooting it home to school closures.
24:00
Speaker 3: And I wouldn't she at home all to school closures either.
24:03
Speaker 3: I think technologies had an impact. I think that the
24:06
Speaker 3: way we live.
24:07
Speaker 1: National introduced to ban on phones at school that seems
24:10
Speaker 1: to have worked. Even principles who were against it say
24:12
Speaker 1: it's a good adea and.
24:13
Speaker 2: I'm fine with it. You know you'll keep that.
24:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I meant at the senior secondary end, we
24:18
Speaker 3: might give the schools a bit more flexibility to make
24:20
Speaker 3: choices about when they allowed for digital devices, but certainly
24:23
Speaker 3: primary schools.
24:24
Speaker 2: I don't think we should have those losses in primary schools.
24:26
Speaker 3: Well, no, and in immediately junior secondary.
24:30
Speaker 10: Yeah.
24:30
Speaker 3: I think it's just once you get to things like
24:31
Speaker 3: exam and exams and all that, you've got to make
24:34
Speaker 3: some calls about when phones should and shouldn't be allowed.
24:36
Speaker 1: I think the kids coming up, like the five, six
24:38
Speaker 1: seven year olds are going to be okay, because those
24:40
Speaker 1: poor kids that came before them, you know, societies experimented
24:44
Speaker 1: on them and knows what doesn't work.
24:46
Speaker 3: A lot of primary schools already had the cell phone
24:48
Speaker 3: bands and in place.
24:50
Speaker 2: My kids schools always had a digital devices, but.
24:52
Speaker 1: I mean parents know not to give them until at
24:54
Speaker 1: least they're seventeen eighteen now, and there'll be a collective
24:57
Speaker 1: agreement amongst parents.
24:58
Speaker 3: I mean, it's one of those things though, we you're
25:00
Speaker 3: always going to be rushing to keep up because actually,
25:02
Speaker 3: the latest guidance home from my kids school is watches,
25:05
Speaker 3: you know, no digital smart watches, because more kids were
25:08
Speaker 3: showing up with those and I'm kind of like, oh, really,
25:10
Speaker 3: you know, I wouldn't give my kids one of those
25:12
Speaker 3: at that age. You know, I think we've just got
25:14
Speaker 3: a We're going to have to keep working to keep
25:16
Speaker 3: up with it. But there's also other issues, you know.
25:19
Speaker 3: I'm watching closely what's happening in Australia with the social
25:22
Speaker 3: media band for the under sixteen. Lots of bumps in
25:25
Speaker 3: the road there. It's kind of good that the Aussies
25:27
Speaker 3: are doing it because we can learn from what they're doing.
25:29
Speaker 3: But I do think we've got to look at this
25:31
Speaker 3: space because it's about educational achievements, also about mental health.
25:35
Speaker 3: There's so many things that connect here just.
25:38
Speaker 1: Very quickly, and I know my producers are screaming for
25:40
Speaker 1: a break. But when it comes to bullying, as leader
25:44
Speaker 1: of the Opposition, as the senior you know, could you
25:48
Speaker 1: call off the dogs on Karen Chaw's bullying. I find
25:51
Speaker 1: that one of the most upsetting things I've seen in
25:54
Speaker 1: Parliament is that she is specifically targeted because she's female
25:59
Speaker 1: and because she's Mary, but not Mary enough for some
26:02
Speaker 1: people in parliament. She is trying to do a really
26:05
Speaker 1: good job, coming from a background that is unique among parliamentarians.
26:09
Speaker 1: It would be great to see a sign of leadership
26:13
Speaker 1: where you just got no, I think hell attacks are en.
26:16
Speaker 3: I think we have to draw a clear line between
26:18
Speaker 3: accountability and personal attacks. And absolutely we're our MPs of
26:21
Speaker 3: overstepped that line. Calvin Davis did that, you know, several
26:24
Speaker 3: years ago, and I called that out and I said, no,
26:26
Speaker 3: that's not okay, and he needed to go and apologize
26:28
Speaker 3: and he did.
26:29
Speaker 2: Because I think.
26:29
Speaker 3: Ministers it's ongoing, but ministers should be held accountable. But
26:33
Speaker 3: I think there needs to be a very clear line,
26:35
Speaker 3: and I think that personal attacks and personal denigration should
26:38
Speaker 3: should not happen.
26:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's across the board. But it just seems
26:42
Speaker 1: she in particular, because it's such a highly charged portfolio,
26:47
Speaker 1: it will never be right whoever's in charge of it.
26:49
Speaker 1: But it's just she's not Mary enough. She's not female enough,
26:52
Speaker 1: She's not I.
26:52
Speaker 3: Think the children's portfolio is a really tough one. And actually,
26:55
Speaker 3: if you look at when Tracy Martin had it, when
26:57
Speaker 3: Calvin Davis had it, they were also subject to some
26:59
Speaker 3: pready intense scrutiny because of well, no, I don't think
27:05
Speaker 3: that's true. Actually, I think, okay, when it comes to kids,
27:07
Speaker 3: it does get pretty pretty personal.
27:09
Speaker 1: News talk said b Brett. Last question from you.
27:13
Speaker 11: Yeah, hi Kerry, Hi Christ and up coming up about
27:16
Speaker 11: the defense policy in labor's defense policy and given the
27:19
Speaker 11: will we live in now with two land wars going
27:22
Speaker 11: on and potentially a third not not too far away,
27:27
Speaker 11: the state of the New Zealand defense force, while we've
27:29
Speaker 11: got some good cats, we've put large amounts of it,
27:33
Speaker 11: and have we got large amounts of of person power.
27:37
Speaker 11: You know what, why can't we have a given it
27:41
Speaker 11: so serious, that's such a serious topic. Why can't we
27:43
Speaker 11: have a bypass and approach to defense so this big
27:46
Speaker 11: capital spins can can occure over a long time and
27:50
Speaker 11: we can build up a defense force that would make sense.
27:52
Speaker 1: What is it because whenever there is a war, it
27:55
Speaker 1: is a bipartisan approach, isn't it?
27:58
Speaker 3: Approach in New Zealand towards defend for the last thirty
28:00
Speaker 3: or forty years has been to sort of just pretend
28:02
Speaker 3: that we can continue to sweep the old assets that
28:04
Speaker 3: we've got to not invest in them, and a lot
28:06
Speaker 3: of that has just reached the point where you just
28:08
Speaker 3: can't anymore. So in government, you know, over the last
28:11
Speaker 3: six years, we replaced the orions, we replace the Hercules
28:13
Speaker 3: because they literally had just run out alive the money
28:16
Speaker 3: we knew. He was one of the ships that we
28:18
Speaker 3: purchased during that time, sadly now at the bottom of
28:20
Speaker 3: the ocean. But I do think, you know, there is
28:23
Speaker 3: a case for capital investment in our defense force. Judith Collins,
28:26
Speaker 3: I actually spoke to about this last night at the
28:28
Speaker 3: dinner that we were at last night, and I said, look,
28:31
Speaker 3: whatever you do with your Defense Force capability review, make
28:33
Speaker 3: sure you come and talk to us about that, because
28:36
Speaker 3: you know, these are assets that have in many cases
28:38
Speaker 3: a thirty year life. They're going to cost a lot
28:40
Speaker 3: of money. So let's actually be constructive about doing that.
28:43
Speaker 3: But can I also just make one other point, which
28:45
Speaker 3: is not just about the assets. I think your question
28:47
Speaker 3: was touching on this. You've got to have the crew
28:49
Speaker 3: for those assets as well. We've actually got a number
28:51
Speaker 3: of naval ships tied up at the moment because we
28:54
Speaker 3: have the ships, but we just don't have the crew.
28:56
Speaker 2: They're not getting them out there.
28:57
Speaker 1: I think there's real issues with their pay and with housing.
29:00
Speaker 3: And there's a combination pay housing. Also, you know, we've
29:04
Speaker 3: just been through a very low unemployment you know, labor
29:06
Speaker 3: market boom where people, particularly the tradees who work in
29:09
Speaker 3: the defense force, could get really good money by leaving
29:11
Speaker 3: the defense force and going into the private sector. With
29:14
Speaker 3: the economy turning down unemployment going up, it would be
29:16
Speaker 3: interesting to see whether that changes. But I do think
29:19
Speaker 3: there's a case for us putting more money into the
29:22
Speaker 3: pay of our defense people. And also just a final
29:25
Speaker 3: point promise is defense isn't just about defense either. When
29:30
Speaker 3: we look at what we ask our defense force to do,
29:31
Speaker 3: there's an awful lot of natural disaster recovery, there's an
29:34
Speaker 3: awful lot of international aid those sorts of things, and
29:38
Speaker 3: we need to make sure that we're recognizing that.
29:43
Speaker 1: Interest text deductibility, Jamie, you have a question.
29:45
Speaker 10: For Chris, Yeah, just quickly, a couple of questions morning,
29:49
Speaker 10: both of you. The regressive text put in place with
29:52
Speaker 10: basically no notice speck and twenty one for the mare
29:54
Speaker 10: and poal emmal was what was the thinking with regard
29:57
Speaker 10: to their given eighty percent of the rentals are provided
29:59
Speaker 10: by the private sector and has always been the case.
30:02
Speaker 10: And secondly, wouldn't the state one people less dependent on
30:05
Speaker 10: state and retirement therefore having one or two investment properties
30:08
Speaker 10: for retirement, which eighty percent of the landmill TeV in
30:11
Speaker 10: this country. Wouldn't that be a good thing? And then
30:13
Speaker 10: you could look at means testing the retirement pension based
30:16
Speaker 10: on asset base that the family holds. It would make
30:18
Speaker 10: no sense for someone like Graham Hart to get a
30:20
Speaker 10: five hundred dollars pension a week.
30:22
Speaker 3: Your thoughts, Yeah, I mean there's quite a lot of question,
30:25
Speaker 3: thank you, but just working backwards through them. I think
30:27
Speaker 3: one of the challenges with saying that, you know, retirement
30:31
Speaker 3: rental property should be the default retirement savings is that's
30:34
Speaker 3: okay if you've got equity and you can afford to
30:36
Speaker 3: have several houses. If you can't even afford to buy
30:38
Speaker 3: one house, then actually, when you get to retirement, you're
30:41
Speaker 3: going to be in a really disadvantaged position compared to
30:43
Speaker 3: everybody else. So I do think that we shouldn't give
30:46
Speaker 3: up on the dream of home ownership for as many
30:48
Speaker 3: New Zealanders as possible. So we've got to make sure
30:50
Speaker 3: that we've got a policy around rental domestic property that's
30:56
Speaker 3: still prioritizing first home buyers so that people can get
30:59
Speaker 3: their foot on the proper later. Because it's actually a
31:01
Speaker 3: pretty important part of our retirement savings owning your own home.
31:04
Speaker 3: I think looking at things like key we savor and
31:06
Speaker 3: making sure that actually you can get a good return
31:08
Speaker 3: out of having your money in other forms of retirement savings,
31:11
Speaker 3: then rental properties is important. On the issues of interest deductibility,
31:15
Speaker 3: that is all tied up with the overall approach to
31:18
Speaker 3: tax including because if you are going to have a
31:20
Speaker 3: capital gains tax or some other form of tax in
31:22
Speaker 3: that area, then whatever you do with interest deductibility has
31:25
Speaker 3: to be compatible with that. So haven't made any decisions
31:28
Speaker 3: on what if our future policy in that area might be.
31:31
Speaker 1: Means testing for super.
31:33
Speaker 3: The problem with means testing for super if you look
31:35
Speaker 3: at it, you've got one of the highest rates of
31:38
Speaker 3: over sixty five.
31:39
Speaker 1: Just a moment, because otherwise I think they're going to
31:41
Speaker 1: cut me off. Well, I'm going to get a telling
31:44
Speaker 1: off when I come off here. So I'm just going
31:45
Speaker 1: to hand the two minutes over to you that we have.
31:48
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, just I'll answer that last question on
31:50
Speaker 3: retirement whether we should means test the retirement age, and
31:53
Speaker 3: the challenge there is we've got one of the highest
31:55
Speaker 3: rates of over sixty five's in work in the OECD
31:59
Speaker 3: and one of the reasons for that is if you
32:01
Speaker 3: don't own your own home, it's how you mess and
32:03
Speaker 3: retirement savings. You basically start claiming superannuation at sixty five,
32:07
Speaker 3: you save that while you're continuing to work, and then
32:10
Speaker 3: that's what gives you your nest egg to retire on.
32:12
Speaker 3: So if you start a to means test it, you're
32:14
Speaker 3: potentially actually cutting out you know, or even raise the
32:17
Speaker 3: age or whatever. You're actually potentially making the problem worse
32:20
Speaker 3: for some of those people who don't own their own home.
32:23
Speaker 2: So anyway, I.
32:24
Speaker 3: Guess it's the end of the year, So Kerry, Merry Christmas,
32:26
Speaker 3: and can you say, Mary Christmas? It's still November, but.
32:30
Speaker 2: I know that doesn't feel right.
32:31
Speaker 1: In four weeks it'll be Boxing Day.
32:33
Speaker 3: I know.
32:33
Speaker 2: Oh that's a soberingful.
32:35
Speaker 1: It's gracious, But how's the year in opposition being?
32:39
Speaker 2: It's been not too bad. Look, it's been good.
32:41
Speaker 3: We've gotten out and about around the country and had
32:42
Speaker 3: a chance to listen to people. When you lose an election,
32:44
Speaker 3: I said right at the beginning, you've actually got to
32:46
Speaker 3: take a breath. You've got to you know, you got
32:48
Speaker 3: to listen the voters and a democracy voters are never wrong,
32:52
Speaker 3: and so you've got to get out there and listen
32:54
Speaker 3: to people. So, but I hope everybody has a great summer.
32:56
Speaker 3: I hope we get some good, nice warm weather. I
32:58
Speaker 3: think the country does that. I think we're all just
33:01
Speaker 3: hanging out for a decent, decent chance to kind of
33:04
Speaker 3: light the beach and spend some time with kids and
33:07
Speaker 3: have eat far too much food, and you know, and
33:09
Speaker 3: just really have a good break.
33:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, do all the things that matter. You'll be getting
33:12
Speaker 1: a good break.
33:13
Speaker 2: Yeah.
33:13
Speaker 3: I'm going to take a couple of weeks, so I've
33:14
Speaker 3: spent some time with the kids, bit of barbecuing down
33:17
Speaker 3: at the beach, you know, just just generally relaxing good and.
33:21
Speaker 1: We'll look forward to seeing you next year. It's kind
33:24
Speaker 1: of your song choice. You were led to this song.
33:26
Speaker 3: I was led to because apparently somebody overheard me singing
33:29
Speaker 3: to it the other day. I mean good and is
33:31
Speaker 3: gracious that that's trauma. They're going to be counseling for that.
33:33
Speaker 10: Well.
33:33
Speaker 1: I got publicly castigated by the boss for daring to
33:36
Speaker 1: warble along to a crowded outs dune the other day.
33:39
Speaker 1: Somewhere in the same boat. We'll go out with smash
33:42
Speaker 1: Proof featuring jin Wigmore. The song is Brother. Thank you
33:45
Speaker 1: for your time this year, and thank you for your
33:47
Speaker 1: courtesy and for always being available to answer questions.
33:50
Speaker 2: Thanks Carry good fun and
33:54
Speaker 1: News talk sed me It's seven to eleven.