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The Zodiac Garden Guide with Isaac Hill · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: What's going to happen?
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: What I.
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: Welcome back to the occult rejects today. We are joined
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  Speaker 3: by Isaac Hill, author of The Zodiac Garden Guide, a
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  Speaker 3: book that sits right at the crossroads of astrology, erbalism, gardening,
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  Speaker 3: folk magic, permaculture, vedic timing, Western astrological herbalism, and the
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  Speaker 3: older idea that the heavens can be mirrored in living earth.
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: This is not just a book about planting herbs by
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: your son's side. Welcome back to the occult rejects Today.
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: We are joined by Isaac Hill, author of The Zodiac
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: Garden Guide, a book that sits right the crossroads of astrology, herbalism, gardening,
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: folk magic, permoculture, vedic timing, Western astrological herbalism, and the
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: older idea that the heavens can be mirrored in living earth.
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  Speaker 3: This is not just a book about planting herbs by
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  Speaker 3: your sun's sign. Isaac is working with something much deeper.
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  Speaker 3: The garden as mandala, the garden as living temple, the
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  Speaker 3: garden as embodied map of the Cosmos. In this system,
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  Speaker 3: each bed becomes a portion of the zodiac, and each
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  Speaker 3: plant is chosen through layers of meaning, planetary rulership, elemental quality,
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  Speaker 3: medicinal action, magical virtue, flower color, habitat, the doctrine of signatures,
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  Speaker 3: and the old astrological body known as the zodiacal human.
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  Speaker 3: We are going to talk about why the moon matters
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  Speaker 3: so much in planting, how traditions like pikatrix, culpeper lily,
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  Speaker 3: Appalachian planting by the signs, Vedic maxatras, and electional astrology
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  Speaker 3: all meet in the soil, and how someone can actually
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  Speaker 3: build a zodiac garden, whether they have lain and a backyard,
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  Speaker 3: a patio, or just twelve containers. So today we are
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  Speaker 3: not only talking about astrology, and we are not only
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  Speaker 3: talking about gardening. We are talking about what happens when
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  Speaker 3: the plant world, the stars, the body, the seasons, and
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  Speaker 3: ritual attention are brought into one living design. And before
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  Speaker 3: we introduce the guest, let me introduce the other rejects
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  Speaker 3: that are joining me today.
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  Speaker 4: I got my man Jin the Ninja what is going on? Jen?
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  Speaker 4: Thank you so much for making What's up?
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  Speaker 2: Boss, Thank you so much for having me mister ninety
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  Speaker 2: three cardinal electric head, and obviously thank you to Robbie,
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: and thank you, especially to Isaac who is just on
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  Speaker 2: my show. Of course the episode is not released. Thank
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  Speaker 2: you so much Isaac for coming on taking a chance
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: on my podcast. I had Honestly, we had a great discussion.
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  Speaker 2: We could have gone for like another two hours. We
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: hit and I was not easy on Isaac. I was like,
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: let's talk about this and go on this thing. So
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: people who know me know that the cabbala autism is
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  Speaker 2: strong with me, so I definitely let my you know,
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  Speaker 2: my caball flag fly a little for Isaac already. So
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  Speaker 2: I'm really excited for this. I think people will get
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  Speaker 2: a lot out of it. People come to me a
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  Speaker 2: lot with gardening questions. I'm a big fan of Isaac's
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  Speaker 2: YouTube channel and his ig because that's their main platform.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: So I encourage every ready to go check that out
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  Speaker 2: because I will that his episode with me will drop soon.
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  Speaker 2: And I'll promise Isaac, I won't you hit it hard today,
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  Speaker 2: but We'll just have a fun discussion about gardening. I'll
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: let Nick lead. But yeah, people want to check me out,
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  Speaker 2: check me out at Threshold Saints, I guess on YouTube
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: or substack. Threshold Saints on substock dot com or YouTube
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: dot com. Slash Threshold Saints, which has both the Grey
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: Lodge and Threshold Saints. So if you're looking for like
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  Speaker 2: one place for it all, it's all on YouTube now.
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  Speaker 2: So thank you guys so much. Appreciate it.
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  Speaker 4: Well, thank you Jin.
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  Speaker 3: I appreciate you making it Man, and again I appreciate
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  Speaker 3: you suggesting the guests. I'm very much looking forward to
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  Speaker 3: this and my man, Robbie Mark's the storyteller himself. What
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  Speaker 3: is going on? Man, Thank you for making it.
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  Speaker 5: Hey, good to come hang out and see everybody. Good
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  Speaker 5: to meet you, Isaac. I come into this completely blind,
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  Speaker 5: and I have to say that based on what I've
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  Speaker 5: heard so far, this is like intricately tied and a
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  Speaker 5: lot into a lot of the stuff that I've kind
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  Speaker 5: of been looking at for the last twenty thirty years
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  Speaker 5: in regard to, you know, the potency, the use of
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  Speaker 5: the planting of all, in regard to the heavens and
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  Speaker 5: the earthly model, you know, and how they connect with
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  Speaker 5: one another. But yeah, I am R Marx artist illustrator,
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  Speaker 5: and if you want to check out my other stuff,
• 4:32
  Speaker 5: you can go to my link tree which is link
• 4:34
  Speaker 5: tree R m ar X and that has my social media,
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  Speaker 5: my Patreon, my podcast, the metamind Cast, as well as
• 4:44
  Speaker 5: all the places you can look at my art that
• 4:46
  Speaker 5: I do for various things. But yeah, it's great to
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  Speaker 5: see everybody. Jin always good to hang out and again,
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  Speaker 5: thanks Nick, it's always fun to come on.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, thank you, Robbie. I always appreciate when you can
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: make time to make it. And I figured since it
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: was in the the middle of the day, I was like,
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  Speaker 3: my people will pull this off, so yeah, yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: and Isaac, my man, I have to say when I
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  Speaker 3: did when you send me your book and I checked
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  Speaker 3: it out from you know, I'll be honest. When little
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: I did look into it, I was like, ooh, it
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  Speaker 3: is this guy like a reincarnation of Tych o'brie, because
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: like I feel like, I.
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: Don't know if you know who that is, but he
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  Speaker 4: very much like.
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  Speaker 1: Did his sword fights.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, he still got his nose. Yeah you got
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: a dwarf. You got a dwarf at all? He had
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  Speaker 4: a dwarf, no, just a yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Also he also had a drunken elk that died too,
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: that fell down the stairs. The guy had a very
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  Speaker 3: interesting life. But yeah, yeah, when I was looking at
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  Speaker 3: your book, it very much made me think about when
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  Speaker 3: I had covered him. I just thought it was so
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  Speaker 3: like I thought it was genius and just wild about
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: how you would actually plant everything separately, you know, like
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  Speaker 3: he would do his planetary things all together, and I
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  Speaker 3: kind of like, you know, flower beds for Saturn and
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: then here's Jupiter, and like I kind of was maybe
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: getting the idea of that might have been in some
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  Speaker 3: of your work. So I was thoroughly excited to get
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  Speaker 3: you on. But please, Isaac, let everybody know what's up
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  Speaker 3: with you and anything you want to promote.
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  Speaker 4: Please sure.
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  Speaker 1: So my name is Isaac. I have a podcast called
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  Speaker 1: The Plant Cunning Podcast with my wife DC, who is
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  Speaker 1: an herbalist, and so we interview a lot of herbalists
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: and magicians, astrologers, promoculturists, wild foragers, kind of like a
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  Speaker 1: lot of different kinds of people that are in this
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  Speaker 1: general domain of working with plants, working with the spiritual
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  Speaker 1: side of things. And I'm also a musician. We've got
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: to band the hills in the rivers. We're not really
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: so active these days. And I just wrote the book
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: The Zodiac Gardens, So that's the Zodia Garden Guide. That's
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  Speaker 1: the new book that I'm I've been working on and
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  Speaker 1: very to have it out in the world. It was
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: it was a lot of work, but it was a
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  Speaker 1: lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. So yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I'm I'm a gardener, promoculturist, astrologer. Yeah, so I'm also
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: an astrologer. I I do see clients day to day,
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: not every day, but every week pretty much. And you
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  Speaker 1: can schedule a reading with me if you want to
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  Speaker 1: by emailing me at Askisakill at gmail dot com. I'm
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  Speaker 1: I'm from a I'm in a lineage of Veta astrology
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  Speaker 1: through my teacher, Freedom Cole, and then his his teacher
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  Speaker 1: found it Sunday Roth, who was born into a a
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  Speaker 1: Brahmin family of astrologers, royal astrologers. So I mean, I'm
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  Speaker 1: just compared to him. I'm just a little baby, but uh,
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  Speaker 1: but they taught me a lot. And then I've also
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  Speaker 1: studied in traditional Western more like Renaissance astrology with Chris Warnock,
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  Speaker 1: so that's kind of my background.
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  Speaker 4: That is awesome. So yeah, oh, well you know who
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  Speaker 4: tychle brahe was when I'm his name you mentioned, so yeah,
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  Speaker 4: very nice.
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  Speaker 3: I did want to ask, well, like I had told you.
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  Speaker 3: In the beginning, I always ask like what kind of
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  Speaker 3: got you into this? But I guess prior to that,
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  Speaker 3: I do want to ask, like you can, what do
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  Speaker 3: you you consider yourself like a herbalist, a witch, an occultist,
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  Speaker 3: Like what would you kind of consider yourself with this stuff?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's hard to say, you know. I am an astrologer,
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  Speaker 1: you know, so I'm an astrologer. I see clients. I
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  Speaker 1: study astrology. I am a gardener, a plant guy. I'm
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  Speaker 1: a I'm a folk herbalist, and that I make medicines
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  Speaker 1: out of herbs. I grow herbs medicinally, I take herbs.
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  Speaker 1: I don't see clients as a as an herbalist. Uh though,
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  Speaker 1: So I don't really consider myself a witch in term.
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  Speaker 1: I'm an astrological magician. Maybe an ocultist, but a cultist
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  Speaker 1: is don't that word also has all the words have
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  Speaker 1: their connotations, you know, it's hard to say, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I we'll see, I'm also a spiritual seeker, you know.
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  Speaker 1: I'm just trying to, you know, move towards the truth
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  Speaker 1: and or move away from the false. So yeah, that's
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  Speaker 1: kind of that's how that's that's what I'll say.
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  Speaker 4: That's fine, that's fine.
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  Speaker 3: I was just wondering, like how I would even say,
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  Speaker 3: like I guess, well, you know what got you into
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  Speaker 3: what you're doing? Then, you know, I was gonna say,
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: like what got you into the occult? But I guess
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  Speaker 3: what guy was? It was it gardening or astrology that
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  Speaker 3: came first.
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  Speaker 1: Well, so I was homeschooled until high school. So I
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  Speaker 1: went to high school public high school, but I was
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: homeschooled before then, and so we had to do like
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: the math and the science and everything, but we were
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  Speaker 1: also allowed to choose or an adventure to a certain degree.
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  Speaker 1: And I was just out in the woods all the time.
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  Speaker 1: And so one of the first subjects, like when I
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  Speaker 1: was eight or nine, I was like I want to
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  Speaker 1: learn all of the edible wild plants, you know. So
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  Speaker 1: I I like studied and learned all the edible wild
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  Speaker 1: plants that were in in our in our woods and
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: made like drawings and so on. And I was planting
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  Speaker 1: at that time too, like find find like a pear
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  Speaker 1: tree at big lots on sales, like I want to
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  Speaker 1: plant that, you know. And I dig a pond when
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  Speaker 1: I was nine, and you know, just a little pond
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  Speaker 1: in the back and planted it and had frogs there
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  Speaker 1: and so on. So that's that's kind of like that's
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: the origin more as like a plant person. And then
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: I found in college I two things happened. One is
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: that I I found a spiritual teacher, and so I
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: was focused on more on enlightenment and self inquiry. And
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: so I met Art Tickner, who's a amazing fellow, part
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: and part of the TAT Foundation, which is truth and Transmission,
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: and so that was sort of my focus for a while,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: more of that spiritual path of of self realization. And
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: then right after college I found permaculture, and so permaculture
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: was kind of I also see it really as kind
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  Speaker 1: of like an initiation into whole systems thinking, into systems
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: thinking because you're you're you're seeing things from an ecological perspective.
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  Speaker 1: And so I practiced that throughout my twenties as I
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: was also playing and a band and doing all that
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: kind of stuff. That was kind of my main thing
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: was really bad well, I was also doing as much
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: forma culture. And then I think it was actually John
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: Michael Greer who turned me on too, like magic per se,
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: because I found him through parmaculture. And then I was
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: like well, what's like operative spirituality? You know what I mean?
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: Like that? I mean it gets stuff done on a
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: you know, like, what's the mechanics, the subtle mechanics. I
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: started getting interested in that, and so from there I
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: started learning like planetary magic. Found that very interesting, and
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: so initiation through the celestial spheres more this sromatic concept
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: and working with planetary energies, working with planetary archangels, that
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: kind of stuff. And then from there I got interested
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: in Chris Warnock's work with astrological magic, and I took
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: his course and studied deeply in Renaissance astrology. After that,
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: he had started.
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: Writing storry to interrupt. Didn't he have a book?
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: I used that guy. I've had something by him when
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: he came to Herbs. I'm almost positive.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: So Chris Warnock is one of the co translators of
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: the Pickatricks along with John Michael Greer, and Picatrix is
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: sort of like the main book of astrological magic. But
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: he's also written several other books on astrological magic and
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: things like that, but they're all self published too, through
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Renaissance through Red Soans Trilogy. In print. He was along yebor.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: Sorry sorry, guys. I just wanted to say was he
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: was a longtime collaborator, collaborator with Gordon White.
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  Speaker 1: Right, No, that's Austin kopic.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Oh, I apologize. I apologize, My bad, my bad, And
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: I wasn't trying to say anything wrong. I just I
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: get I get mixed up, my bad.
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: No, Austin Kopek was one of the big promoters of
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: astrological magic and is still But Chris Warnock was a
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: little bit from an earlier generation and was one of
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: the first people who was actually doing it publicly, you know,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: in like the late nineties, early two thousands, So he
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: sort of he's the pioneer of astrological magic, the tradition
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: in the contemporary you know, reinvigoration of the Romantic tradition.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: So so then after that, I started studying with Freedom
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: coal in Vata astrology, and I've been in that lineage,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: studying that lineage for the last four years and probably
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: keep studying that lineage for a long time. But that's
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: my main practice. So that's kind of like the uh,
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of other things that's sort
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: of the general trajectory. So astrology is kind of a
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: little bit later where plants are my primary love, but
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: I also love astrology very much.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: I think i'd have to say once I started getting
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: into more planetary magic is where I started utilizing herbs
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: a lot more too. Well, even think with that depending
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: you know, if you're doing like hermetic cabala or you know,
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: depending on how you're working with this stuff. For me,
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: I felt like once you got into planetary stuff, that
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: just opened up so many more options of things to
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: associate and use, because then even then you can still
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: go by an element, where if I was just doing
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: elemental magic, I'm not using a planet. I'm using the
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: element here, So it just opens up more associations. So
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: I did find use of crystals and herbs a lot more,
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: I thought, so I could see how you know, I
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: guess it did the same for you, right, I guess,
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: like a little bit.
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely the same with me. Yeah.
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: One thing I did want to ask you because you
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: mentioned it a few times, and I have had people
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: on the show I think mentioned it as well, but
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure if there were really a guest for it.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: You mentioned veda astrology, could you explain to the listeners
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: what that is? And I guess maybe the difference between
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: other ones.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So Vedic astrology is the astrology of the Hindus,
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: basically of the Brahmins. Really, it's the astrology of the Brahmins.
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: And.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: It has its roots in the knock Chatras really and
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: in choosing direct times to do ceremonies, basically from thousands
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: of years ago. Right, so the knock Chatras are are.
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: From thousands sayatras, no chatras.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, the knock Chatras are the twenty seven to twenty eight.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: There's twenty seven point three, but there's twenty seven or
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: twenty eight mansions of the moon. But they're the constellations
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: that each the moon goes.
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: Oh the peak one each day.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so those are the Arabic mansions of the moon,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: which are probably probably come from the Vedic ones the
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: knack Chatras. But the knock Chatras are these stars, but
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: they come from the twenty seven days twenty seven point
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: three days that the moon takes to come back to
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: the same place in the sky. And so then because
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: the sun is also moving, it's twenty nine and a
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: half days for the full moon, you know, from full
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: moon to full moon, it's twenty nine and a half days.
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  Speaker 1: That's the month. Then the twenty seven is the knox Chatras,
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: that's the lunar zodiac. So this is the foundation of
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Vedic astrology really, but you know, as it's evolved and
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: changed over time. But in the tradition I study and
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: it's the main core text is the Brihat Parasha or
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: as Shastra from the stage Prasher, And there's a lot
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: of similarities with Western astrology. At the time that it
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: was put down into words, the zodiac was basically the same.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: But the thing is, because the Brahmins use the nax Chatras,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: which are fixed stars, they're using a siberial zodiac, so
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: whereas in the West, in the Middle East and in
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: Europe they use a tropical zodiac. Right, so the siderial zodiac,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: it's they're both twelve thirty degree sections of the sky.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: They're even thirty degree sections of the sky. There are
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: is now also a constellational zodiac that bidynamic people use,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: but this there's they're the same twelve sections. They're named
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: the same, they're named based on the constellations that used
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: to inhabit them. But the Sideiro zodiac is attached to
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: the sky at the fixed stars and the tropical zodiac
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: is attached to the sky at the seasons, at the
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: spring equinox, which is the note of the sun. So
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: so they're different. And the thing is also that ancient
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: peoples have always understood the difference between the tropical in
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: the in the Siberia, because we have all these ancient
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: sites that are that are either like some of them
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: are oriented towards fixed stars, some of them are oriented
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: towards equinoxes and solstices. Right, so those are the two
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: Those are two different cycles, and they these zodiacs move
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: apart from each other by one degree every seventy two years.
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: So now.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: The constellation of Cancer isn't really in the tropical sign
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: of Cancer anymore. And that's that's what also gives raid
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: rise to the ages, the astrological ages. So people talk
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: about the age of Aquarius. That's when the spring equinox
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: will be in the sign of in the constellation of Aquarius.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: But that's still a couple of hundred years to go
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: really for that time, because we're still there are still
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: about six degrees away from that. But I can also
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: we can see how there's like a dawning of that perhaps,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: but there's still some way to go. So that's the
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: difference between the zodiacs, which is important to understand the
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: difference between Vega astrology and Western astrology. The other thing
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: is that the Vedic astrology, it's the lineage that I study.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: And one of the reasons that I study in this
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: lineage is because it's an unbroken lineage. And there are
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: unbroken lineages in the West two which we we could
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: talk about too, but there's unbroken lineage of royal astrologers.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: So my my palm grew pond Sanjay rough his grandfather
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: was born was the royal astrologer of the Kingdom of
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: Arisa when that was a kingdom now it's a state
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: of India. So they were like their job was to
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: be the advisor to kings, right, and that goes back,
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: that line goes back for many centuries. And so the
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: way that we also see the astrologer in this tradition,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: especially with my teacher freedom call, is as that the
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: we see the the the chart as a map of karma,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: and so the karma is a vata idea, it's a
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: concept of a bata concept and we see that the
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: the the astrologer the goal from at least also from
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: my perspective, is to be a karma doctor. So we're
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: seeing what's going on in the person's life and how
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: the planets are indicating that because the planets are this
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: even in you know, in Agrippa we talk about like
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: the planets are between the divine realm and the the
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: the material the sublunary sphere, so that that's like that
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: the language of the gods, right, So there it's indicating
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: the karmic blueprint of a person's incarnation. So by understanding
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: the karbon blooeprint of a person's incarnation, we can also see,
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: like you know, when hard times are coming, when good
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: times are coming, and how to work with those that
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: karma either to like burn it off or to like
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: to attack your sales. So there's remedies and there's all
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: these traditional remedies. So that's kind of like the the
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: simple yeh, that's what will be a castrology is, I
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: guess from my perspective, there's also a lot of other things.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: But I was already kind of getting off.
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: That was a thorough answer. I love it. Did you
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: guys have anything you wanted to ask? Jen? I know
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: you probably got something you want to ask.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: I definitely, Well, I'm I know I have interrogated Isaac before,
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: furness to him, so it's it's like I'm just listening
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: and trying to absorb like this other facet because I'm
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: probably not a good enough listener most of the time.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: But so thank you, Isaac. That was great. But I
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: I want I think it's useful for people to Isaac
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: if they hear you sort of like differentiate, Like there
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: are multiple streams of of like Joe tashad like, which
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: is a little bit you and I got into right Like,
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: there are there's like the more Vedic Brahmin stuff that
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: you're talking about, and then there's like the Atarvadik, which
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: is like more post feedic and like we're getting into
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: like pironic and tontric. Like if you just go into
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: that a little just so people can like they don't
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: have to just rely on me to say it, they
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: can actually hear like a professional stroulgier to like relate
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: to the same ideas.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so for sure. So one thing that we've got
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: to keep in mind is that I think there's like
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: almost two billion people in the Indian subcontinent, which is
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: way more people. So when people talk about like believing
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: in astrology, like in in Europe and the industrialized world,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: you know, there's a small amount of people who like
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: believe in astrology. But in India there's more people than
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: like there are in the United States who believe in astrology.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: And you know what I mean. So there's a lot
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: of different schools, a lot of different traditions, some forradayas
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: properas you know. And there's so there's why like people
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: talk think about like hindu from a Western perspective and
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: it's as like it's similar to Christianity. There's there's there's
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: so many different varieties of experience there there there and
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: ways of relating with the cosmos, with deities, with the divine.
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: So the lineage I studying is this this Brahmin lineage,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: and it also has a lot of tontric elements, you know,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: also a lot of Agamic elements. You know, it's it's
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: from Arisa, and you know, they're they're talking about working
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: with the Mahavidias for particular reasons and a lot of
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: like contric homas and poojas and all sorts of stuff
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: going on in this in this lineage too, But there
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: are all these different there's lots of different expressions of
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Joe Tish in India, just like in the West, like
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: in the in in Europe and the US and Australia
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: and so on. There's a lot of different schools too,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: you know, you have like your I mean, get into it.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: There's so many different different ways of of like even
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: just like modern astrology that's using like placidics houses and
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: so on, there's more Hellenistic model, there's evolutionary astrology, there's
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: you know, there's all these different different ways of of
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: of of seeing things. So yeah, does that does that
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: make sense? Yeah?
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: I mean it makes sense to me. And I am
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: glad that you said it. So you know, I'll direct
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: all uh you know, uh fan mail to Isaac this time.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: But no, I think that was great Isaacain and I think,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: but I think it illustrates like you're talking about, Like
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: you and I discussed this obviously, people who follow Rejects
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: and me appearing on Rejects, they know that Nick and
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: I did a series three three and a half years
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: ago or three years ago, I want to say, on
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: the Mahavija and Kabbala, like the comparison between the two,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: and so that is kind of my was my first foray,
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: even into podcasting. So obviously they're really I just consider
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: them a part of the tree because there are obviously
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: unit discusses, but there are ten plus one plus Shiva
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: plus mind or depends on your orientation, but you could
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: say Chamunda or you know, Chunda is one of the
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: Durga goddesses. You could say, so there's an eleven right there.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: And so I just consider it like it's not different
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: than the tree. It's just it's a cultural expression of
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: the same thing. That's how I've always considered it. And
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: if you understand like the suffer the yets erratic astrology
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: of Kabbala, they treat the suffers very similar to the
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Mahavija's or two Yoginis and tikinis, meaning that they are
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: supernal to the planets, which makes some people uncomfortable, but
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: it actually is more in keeping with this kind of
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: like Iranian Vedic ideas of the stars being supernal to
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: the planets. So I've said that planets are Klipa's. I'm
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: not the only Cobbalist who says this. Some of the
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: post Lurianic guys also say it, but I agree with that,
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: and I know that doesn't like that makes it sound
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: like the planets are evil, but I'm not saying it
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: like that. I'm saying it more of a Buddhist way.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: They're just they have arconic or arconic property properties, which
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: I know that you probably would agree with Isaac simply
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: because that's the more Jotisha perspective.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: You know, they certainly seem to well, you know, the
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: one way you can say it is that they do
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: are the controllers of the sub literary sphere of what's
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: going on down here.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Maya pervades everything, Mahamya pervades everything, for sure.
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: I agree.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: I totally agree with that. No, so I know that
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: wasn't a question. I just wanted to apologize for that.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: But I think it's an interesting like dialogue, like how
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: can we reconcile that sort of differences between the two systems.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: Is there that big of a difference. I mean, when
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: you're looking at Kashmir, when you're looking at Sufiism coming
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: out of Kashmir, and they're also talking about Kabala, but
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: they relate it in poetry. They don't relate it as
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: like a cartographic map. Then you have these like kind
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: of Jewish gnostic sects that do relate it as a tree,
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: and that's probably where like the Zohar and the suffer
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Carnayin comes from like from that more as static or
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: experiential traditions. So I mean, I think it's all reconcilable.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's like going to be me to you.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: And I discussed this as well as like it's like
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: with a zodiac garden, not every plant is perfectly aligned
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: one hundred percent to one single zodiac sign or planet,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: and it's always like it's more dynamic than that. So
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: I think syncretism also has to be You have to
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: think of it very dynamically. You can't get stuck on
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: the you know, misperceptions that we about that.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I like to think of it in terms of,
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: you know, we live in a relational world, an inanimate world.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: So there's certain ways to relate with spiritual energies and
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: it's helpful to also to understand and you know, it's
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: like a spiritual systems like Joe Tish systems. Astrology systems
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: are like these languages for relating with divine energies and
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: there is an internal coherence within each system. So it's
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: it's not necessarily good to like mix and match stuff
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: because you can get schizophrenic, but it, I mean you
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: can you still can't do that, but it's it's very
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: helpful to understand a system fully because each of the
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: parts within that system were working in a connect cohesive way.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: So but they're all there, They're all it's like there's
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: lots of different ways to relate.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, relational on apology. Yeah, sorry Isac. I didn't mean
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: to interrupt you. No, I just want to say I
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: wholeheartedly second that I think that is a very aonic
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: kind of way to think about, you know, where we're
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: moving in like the time cycle is like this reciprocity
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: and relational ontologies like how do we relate to the
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: land that we live on? Like where do we live?
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: Why do we live there? How does this form us
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: as people? How can we interact with it? How can
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: we better our karmic relations with those things that we
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: can and can't see? And I think this goes like
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: to a deeper question of like the it's not really
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: back to the land movement, but you have seen a
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: lot of people take more rural steps to be like
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: a little more self sufficient. Obviously this is mediated by
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: the actual world, like the material reality of the world
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: we live in. But I think there's there's elements that
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: we can be a little more self sovereign and a
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: little more independent, Like I think having your own well
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: is really great. I think obviously gardening, which is why
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Isaac's here to discuss. So I I think it's all
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: it's like, that's relational to me, like how we directly
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: relate to the land and our experience and on spirituality.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: Right, And I think that in the modern West industrial
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: uh culture, we we we relate to the world as
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: consumers most of the time. And that's kind of like
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: that's not really you're not really understanding, well, you're not
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: You're not part of this web in a in a
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: relational way. You're just consuming.
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: So I'm always I'm always up up, I'm always a
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: proponent of of producing, you know, creating you know, and
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: instead of being alienated from the cycles, become part of
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: connected to the cycles.
• 30:48
  Speaker 5: So and now, historically, when you look at these systems,
• 30:53
  Speaker 5: these intricately linked systems of the human to the earth
• 30:57
  Speaker 5: and the heavens, you go back to you know, as
• 31:00
  Speaker 5: far as you go back in the histories, the gods
• 31:02
  Speaker 5: and goddesses were based around the movement of the heavens
• 31:05
  Speaker 5: and the seasons, when to plant, when to harvest, when
• 31:08
  Speaker 5: to do these miscellaneous things. You had what was it
• 31:12
  Speaker 5: Mitra whose consort he was the light of day, where
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: his his consort was the light of the moon. So
• 31:20
  Speaker 5: and then you see, you know, through Osiris, you see
• 31:23
  Speaker 5: through Mayne, you see through all these various characters associated
• 31:29
  Speaker 5: with the moon in their aspects in how things die
• 31:35
  Speaker 5: and are reborn in cycles. And then carrying that further
• 31:39
  Speaker 5: into the alchemists, you know, they talk about planting during
• 31:42
  Speaker 5: certain seasons to increase potency of things, harvesting under certain
• 31:48
  Speaker 5: lights at certain times. And then you move into the
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: camee or the alchemy, and they're actually you know, in
• 31:55
  Speaker 5: these you know, sustain like stasis containers, Robin's eggs, or
• 32:01
  Speaker 5: various other things, doing these functions directly relating to the
• 32:06
  Speaker 5: cycles of the moon and how the energies reflect and
• 32:10
  Speaker 5: come down onto the earth. Now, as far as within
• 32:13
  Speaker 5: your practices and looking at the various astrology and the
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: zodiac garden, what exactly are you bringing forth with the
• 32:26
  Speaker 5: Zodiac Garden as far as the potency and the use
• 32:32
  Speaker 5: thereof for you know, practical purposes in daily function.
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So, so my goal with the book was to
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: demonstrate this structure, the Zodiac garden, that people can use
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: for different purposes depending on what they are, like if
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: they're an herbalist, to make more healing potently herbs, if
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: they're a magician, and to make more magically potent herbs
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: and so on. You know, we can also use this
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: this garden as a intensifier of spiritual energy and like
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: a like a temple. Uh, there's a lot of ways
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: to work with this. I wanted to because I feel
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: like this, this the Zodiac garden, is something that is around.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: It's not something that I came up with, but nobody
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: has really gotten into it and demonstrated it as far
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: as I'm aware, in in this kind of way. But
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: it seems to me to be a very useful tool
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: for it and for people who are engaged in any
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: of these kind of activities. So I want to show
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: a way that people can do this for themselves.
• 33:46
  Speaker 5: And it is living. It is a living temple or
• 33:50
  Speaker 5: a living mandala. It is a you know, you're working
• 33:53
  Speaker 5: with physical like you know, growing that that bursting forth
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: of the energy of the sleeping divine that's coming into
• 34:02
  Speaker 5: our reality, and working with those energies too, I'll let
• 34:08
  Speaker 5: you extrap as well as the stuff I've been into
• 34:12
  Speaker 5: for quite quite some time, so you know, yeah, so
• 34:16
  Speaker 5: for sure.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: So for instance, so like if I'm going to be
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: making a you know, for myself, if I'm going to
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: be making a talisman of Jupiter, you know, then I'm
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: going to be wanting to use some herbs for that
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: talisman as well, the Jubiterian herbs, and I might want
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: to be using, I don't know, lemon balm. And so
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: if I'm growing that lemon balm in the zodiac garden
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: where I planted at the at the particular right moment
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: and I harvested at a particular right moment, it's going
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: to have a lot more of the a lot more
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: Jubiterian potency in it, right, And I can use that
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: herb than to make a plas I could also use
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: that herb to make an amulet, like just an herbal amulet,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: and it'll be a lot more potent than just like
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: a because because there's there there's different levels of intensity, right,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Like you can just order some dried lemon balm from
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Pacific Botanicals or something, and you don't know, you know,
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: that will work. You can use that in Jupiter Amulet
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: or or something like that. But if you harvest it yourself,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: that's another layer of connection, right, another layer of intensification.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: If you harvest it at the right time when Jupiter
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: is well, let's just say on Jupiter day or Jupiter hour,
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: that's another level. If you harvest it like when Jupiter
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: is rising on Jupiter day on Jupiter hour, then it's
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: like another level if you are growing in the Zodiac garden,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So like there's there's like
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: levels of intensity, just in the same way that like
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: you can go to the store and and get a
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: tomato where you could grow out yourself, and that tomato
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: it's gonna be more work, but that tomato is going
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: to be so much tastier than the tomato you're gonna
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: give it the store.
• 36:11
  Speaker 5: So that's kind of like the yeah, yeah, And I've
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: even heard recently that if you were to take the
• 36:19
  Speaker 5: seeds for certain things you're planting and hold them in
• 36:22
  Speaker 5: your mouth, there's a certain interaction of the potential genetics
• 36:28
  Speaker 5: that or just the energetic systems that will enable and
• 36:32
  Speaker 5: allow that plant to grow specifically tailored to your.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: Energy.
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it will almost kind of like grow what you're lacking. Yeah,
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: you know, who knows that I've seen that makes you wonder.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: I think I heard about that from the Ringing Cedars
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: Anaesthesia book. There's there's some books from Europe from Russia
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: where they talk talk about that. That's that's yeah, that's
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: that's a great practice too. There's a lot of ways
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: to connect, you know, but in terms of like if
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: you're working with plantary energies, you want to really kind
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: of have the strongest influence of Jupiter that you that
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: you'd like or whatever planet.
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I want to sign I wanted to ask
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: you actually something. Well, I have two questions. One was
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: just recently about when you were talking about the Jupiter herbs.
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: And this isn't to like, I'm not saying this to
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: go against what you said. I'm just wondering the reasoning
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: why you said lemon balm and Jupiter. I'm normally used
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: to like lemon or lemon grass and lemon balm. Going
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: with mercury, do you have that associated with Jupiter or
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: was it associated with mercury and you were adding that
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: to it?
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: So that that's this gets into the whole topic of
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: how do we classify plants and how do we And
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: so lemon balm is one of those plants that can
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: be classified in several different plant very higher keys. The
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: alchemists generally use it as a Jubiterian herb, and that's uh.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: Many many alchemists schools will say that you should start
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: with lemon balm, a lemon balm spagiriic to start with Jupiter.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: You know, Jupiter is the most benefit benevolent of the planets.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: So but the thing is, yeah, and the teacher and
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: and so okay, So when we classify plants with planets,
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: a lot of people think it's like a one to
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: one thing, where like a planet only has one it's
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: only in one hierarchy. But I see it more in
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: terms of resonance. So a planet, a plant can resonate
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: in multiple different hierarchies. Some plants resonate more strongly with
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: one like Tayanne pepper is a very strongly marshall plant,
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: but it also resonates with the sun because it's hot
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: and dry, okay, but it's mainly a marshall plant. There
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: are other plants like dandalion, which you can it's culpepper
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: will relate it to Venus because it works on the kidneys,
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: and in terms of the zodiac the zodiac man Venus
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: rules the kidneys because the kidneys are in the Libra part.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: But we can also see dandelion as a solar plant
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: in terms of its flour. Has a yellow flower that
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: opens during the daylight. Right it closes, we can see
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: the moon in its in its leaves because those leaves
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: are a nutritious vegetable that have a milky white latex,
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: and the Moon rules milk. So we can also see
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: it as a jubiterarian or if you're using it for
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: your liver, because Jupiter rules the liver. So it depends
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: on what on how you're on how you're relating to
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: the to the plant.
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no, no, I just and I'm gonna be honest.
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: The reason that made me think that is because you
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: originally said a talisman and if you were using just
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: going this way, Let's say I was making a Jupiter
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: talisman like you were saying. If I was to start
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: now using colors, I would use the flesh and color
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: of mercury.
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: So I thought, maybe that's what you were doing with
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: your thing. That's you know what I'm saying. I don't
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: matchine the mercury with the Jupiter. That's why. Yeah, I
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: was like, well, I just would have assumed that you.
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: Categorized it with Jupiter, because again, like you're saying, there
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: are some herbs that do cross over and eventually you
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: just have to pick.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: One, you know what I'm saying. So you're pathworking, That's
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: what it was. That's what Nick, That's what you're talking about. Nick,
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: Like you're pathworking, You're opening the route from Hoe to Hassad.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: That's how I would think of it. Like you are
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: exactly like the lemonee, the lemonee the lemon shit like
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: that scent. I'm not saying shit, I'm sorry, the lemon
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: scent that like high note that would be more solar mercury.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: And then but the like bomb part of lemon bomb,
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: like that lower note, that kind of high. I saw
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: a minty smell that's like right in between a little liquoric.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: That's going to be your houset or your Jupiter. So
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: that so I actually agree, and I think Actually, that's
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: a really interesting way to frame it. I don't know,
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: I'll let into Isaac respond. I won't be you know,
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: I won't place it upon him, but I think it's
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: an interesting way to think of it.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really interesting. I wasn't even thinking about that
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: at all, but that that makes a lot of sense.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: And again but it just you know, that's it's about relation,
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: like how are you working with the plant and for
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: what purpose? Yeah?
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: Right? Total?
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: All right, So the other question I have This might
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: take a little bit depending on how extra you are,
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: but I was thinking myself if I so, I'm thinking
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: in my head, if I'm going to do Old twelve, like.
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: You would suggest to have Old twelve zodiacs for.
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: Me, I would probably like, all right, now I'm going
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: to pick a specific day time depending on what the
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: moon's doing to probably even like not say so much
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: bless the ground. I guess bless the ground, but maybe
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: even you know, claim what I'm about to do with it,
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: then I would probably do like all this different timing
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: from what I even start are planting certain things? Do
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: you go like that far with all of this, like
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: if you can maybe give us the idea or like
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: the ritual, the ceremonial structure to you actually starting the
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: garden in new yard.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and again this is there's like a lot of
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: levels of intensity depending on what people are comfortable and
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: able to do. You know, you can you don't have
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: to elect it at all. If you don't want to,
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: you know you can still but you can also just
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: elect it. Like one way of doing it is to
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: is to do it by that when the moon is
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: in each sign, the plant, each bed. You know, that's
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: a that's a that's a workable way to do it.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: I also just in general, like the plant whenever the
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: moon is in water signs or in tauris. That's just
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: in general. But so for for me, you know, when
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: you setting the cornerstone, like that's the that's that's the
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: the moment, like the most the most important moment for
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: making a anything, any structure. So that would be the
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: moment I would elect as the most important moment to elect.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: And then I would also generally elect the time to
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: put the last brick in place. But the thing is
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: with a garden too, it's like never finished, right because
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: you're always weeding, and you know, there's always in the
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: garden there's always stuff happening, so you're never done, but
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: the basic structures is completely at a certain time. And
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: for that so I go into a lot of electional
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: criteria in here from several different different ways and showing
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: different options for people. For a garden, the important significators
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: well always the moon. The moon is always important for
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: all celestial activities, especially for plants because real's plants, but
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: for everything because the Moon is rules, so everything rule.
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: All the celestial influences go through the Moon before they
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: come to the sublinear. But Venus is very important for
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: gardens because ve rules gardens and the growth and growth
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: of plants as well, and of course Jupiter, the greater
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: benefic rules growth. Now Saturn is also important more for
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: agricultural purposes, I think than for gardens per se, Like
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: I think of gardens more as a Venus thing and
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: farms more as a Saturn thing. Right, But Saturn is
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: related to the Earth, into working with the earth, into
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: toil and so on, so it's going to be involved
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: in anyway. So what I like to do to make
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: a good election to start at Zodia garden on is
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: is have the moon in a in I would like
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: to have the Moon either in Taurus Cancer or Pisces personally,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: and then I would like to have it in trine
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: or a sex style to a well placed Venus and Jupiter.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: And I'd like to have the rising sign uh be
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: either ruled by Jupiter, Venus or the Moon. I there
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: are some pretty good elections that I've had recently where
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: we had the Moon exalted in tropical cancer and the
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: we had Jupiter exalted in tropical cancer and the moon,
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: like just a couple of weeks ago. That last week,
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: the moon was in Pisces and Venus was also in Cancer,
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: so there was that she was trying applying to a
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: trine with both Venus and Jupiter. That was a really
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: nice moment, really nice moment. But there's really nice moments
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: like that is a moment I would, I would check,
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: I would, I would do like lay the foundation stone.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: But there's a lot of different criteria too. There's other
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: ways of doing it, you know, there's there's multiple ways,
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: but that's how I would do. Yeah, do that makes sense?
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, oh yeah, totally totally. I got what you was.
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, do you do you go like as crazy as
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: like you're not out in the field like with a
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: robe on and a sensor, like invoking the boneless One
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: before you like start cracking the crack in the ground.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it depends generally. No, I'm not generally doing
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: that though, I do like to give give a prayer something.
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: I figured he did something to that effect before you
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: did that. That's what I was asking you.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: That is a great I mean that that is another
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: way to do it too. It's like especially, it's like
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: I feel like you can either go heavy on you
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: can go heavy on ceremony and on election, but like
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: if you if you if the election isn't as strong,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: you can go heavier on the ceremony. But that's totally
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's also depends on what people are, what
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: people like to do. If they're really into the ceremony
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: aspect of things, that's that's great. You know, go out
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: there with a sensor in a row. Also depends on
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: like how private your land is, I guess. But yeah,
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: I've been I've been doing yeah, well, I just I've
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: been really playing playing with doing doing things more on
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: the astral lately too, you know, mentally.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so anyway, totally my bad, My apologies, Isaac, No
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: I I well, I was just excited to ask you
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: the I was thinking when you were speaking of Shawnee,
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: I was thinking of it like more like I think
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: how you normally describe it, but like, yeah, Shawnee, So
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: I was thinking, what do you feel, how do you
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: feel about using composts like compost creation as a remediation
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: perhaps or maybe the Saturnian element of gardening You can
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: respond to either affirmative or negative. That's totally fine.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Actually, so well
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: ask that again.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: Sure, so you know how there obviously you know this,
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: but there are certain remediations that are like very basic
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: for SHAWNI, for saturn in certain like natal chart placements,
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: right like feeding the crows, like red or not bread
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: excuse me, blocks on flower seeds. I was just thinking
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: maybe the creation like making composts. If we were talking
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: about like what is the difference between like agricultural and
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: like more horticultural or more like quote unquote aesthetic gardening.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: Maybe it is the sort of endeavor to labor, which
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: is obviously ruled by SHAWNI. And so the making of
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: your own composts, that's like more you're getting into like
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: master gardener territory. So I just was thinking, like, wouldn't
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: that be an interesting sort of remediation for the Zodiac
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: garden if you actually made your own compost or engage
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: in some process of like the decay again ruled by
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: SHAWNI like age time cycles, and maybe you could apply
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: that to your like or Mullen if you attribute it
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: to him or to like one of the other Saturnian plants.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think that working with the
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: earth is like doing little labor in the garden is
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: a attorney in remedy too, And like I have a scythe,
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: a brush scythe, and if I'm feeling a little bit
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: of the heaviness of Saturn because Saturn aspects my moon,
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: Like when I go scythe for half an hour or so,
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: it you know, it really does work. And maybe as
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: part of that's just the physical exercise, but that's you know,
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: it's labor, physical labor, like does ameliorate Saturn in terms
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: of compost. Yeah, that's a great especially like you know
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: you can you can elect the right the time that
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: you do your your compost if you'd like to as well.
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: But I also see compost as a scorpio you know,
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: compost is a scorpio phenomenon, I'll put that there. And
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: there is definitely also a martial element to compost, because
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: there's there's the decomposition, but there's also this like fire,
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: this alchemical fire that's happening within this transformation that's happening
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: in the compost as well. So I mean, I really
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: see a compost pile as an alchemical process, you know, yeah,
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: but it's always you know, yeah, I mean, and and
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: Rudolph Steiner has all these like the biodynamics have all
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: these preparations that they do that are all very interesting.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: I need to study bidynamics a little bit more, but
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: there's there there are a lot of these kind of
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: preparations that you can do just very specific ways. And
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: then even in there's well, there's a there's a book
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: called the Rickshire Veda of Stuart poly I believe it's
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: it's a it's a classical text of of veda Ireveda
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: four Trees, and there's all these also all these like
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: different like composts and t's and some one that you
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: make for its individual tree. So there's there's some fun
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: stuff in that tradition.
• 50:59
  Speaker 5: Anyway, So to say, oh, I was gonna say, within permaculture,
• 51:03
  Speaker 5: you see creating the compost bubblers where you're creating the
• 51:07
  Speaker 5: super nitrogen rich water. I've seen within growing cannabis where
• 51:12
  Speaker 5: they'll actually grow certain sprouts certain nutrients and then make
• 51:16
  Speaker 5: a slurry and water the plants with that, giving them
• 51:19
  Speaker 5: the exact nutrients that they need in order to you know,
• 51:24
  Speaker 5: flourish in regard to permaculture and not ever auditing this,
• 51:29
  Speaker 5: you know, the soil maintaining the dendrites and all the
• 51:33
  Speaker 5: fungus and all the various things that bring nutrients to
• 51:36
  Speaker 5: the plant. And so there are other ways that that
• 51:40
  Speaker 5: this is relevant in regard to the difference between industrialized
• 51:44
  Speaker 5: society and what we do on an interpersonal level to
• 51:49
  Speaker 5: work with the plants to make them and our reality
• 51:53
  Speaker 5: more beautiful.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and and there's a lot lot
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: of like so there are there. I'm also now thinking
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: on Wednesday this week, the moon will be in the
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: Pushia nax Chatra, which is a great time to fertilize
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: your plants. You know, it's also a waxing moon. And
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: for where I am in my time of year, like
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: we like to fertilize things in in in June and
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: then not too much later on because it'll have too
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: much fast growth and then it might not harden off
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: for the winter, especially for like woody trees and bushes
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: and so on. So like timing the when you apply
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: whatever preparations you're making is also very important. And bid
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: anamics that's also very important. So yeah, timing is is
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: is uh is important. I mean that's part of like
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: part of the goal the job of the astrologer too,
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: so and it seems like it's been neglected lately. Well
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: that's why I'm trying to like, I.
• 52:53
  Speaker 5: Think in traditional times that became the ritual mm hmm, Yeah,
• 52:59
  Speaker 5: that was the of the factor that you know, because
• 53:02
  Speaker 5: they were supplying the growing society and it was necessary
• 53:05
  Speaker 5: to feed the people. So it became the necessary function
• 53:09
  Speaker 5: of the state and the you know, combining to become
• 53:13
  Speaker 5: the ritual for the purpose of progressing society itself. And
• 53:17
  Speaker 5: we've come to a point now where we're so disassociated,
• 53:21
  Speaker 5: you know, from from living with nature and in the
• 53:24
  Speaker 5: green and and just it's you know, the dialectic diametrics
• 53:30
  Speaker 5: are are definitely interesting.
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like because we've been on this uh a
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: couple hundred years bender of fossil fuels. Uh, we have
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: haven't had to spend as much effort. You know. We
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: can just have a tractor put some gasoline in there.
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: That's like six hundred men, you know, working, So we
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: haven't had to be as connected to the cycle. But
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: I don't see that like at some point the oil
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: is going to run out and it will be helpful
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: to have some of these techniques that we we used
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: to have right around, you know. So that's part of
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: what I'm trying to do as well, keep some of
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: these techniques in circulation.
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: Definitely.
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: I know you kind of mentioned by mentioning people's names
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: earlier kind of you know, let me know a little
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: bit about that. I guess your influence. I know, just
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: you mentioned Steiner, you mentioned that they got Warnick. Who
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: are some of the people that kind of I guess
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: were inspiring in you or that you took from kind
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: of using this work.
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so especially this this this this book. So
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: John Michael Greer is definitely one of them. And so
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: he had a book called The Encyclopedia of Natural Magic,
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: which is an excellent book on natural magic. And then
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: he mentions at gardens and the end, he doesn't really
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: give any thing about how to make them maybe a
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: little bit, But so that was one instance inspiration for sure.
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: And I do quote him in the book a lot.
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: And then of course Chris Warnock too, like when I'm
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: when I was taking his his courses, he talked about
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: how you can make a talisman. For you can make
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: a talisman by electing the right time and booking the
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: slicer of spirit. You can also make ah, you can
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: do the same thing. A house can be a talisman,
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: a city can be a talisman, A garden can be
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: a talisman. And so I was like, well, what do
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: you wait, a garden can be a talisman? How do
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: you do that? And I asked him he was like, well,
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: you know. And then so part that conversation was also
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: part of the inspiration for this, like so how do
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: you actually do that? And so that's what I had
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: to had to figure out. Part of it is the election,
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: but also part of it is is everything else. So
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: those are kind some of my big inspirations in terms
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: of in terms of of of this book, and really
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: like yeah, I mean I just I've been thinking about
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: a zodiac garden or magical gardens since before I was
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: interested in magic, like when I was doing uh, being
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: initiated into permaculture, like I had this fantasy of you know,
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: like a magical garden, like making a magical garden that
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: is more than the sum of its parts. And and
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: so that's kind of like what I've been building to
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: as well through all of this study and these traditions
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: and and kind of in the back of my mind
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: the whole time is like, so, how do I actually
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: make this useful for gardening, for for these these these things.
• 56:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and when you go back into the histories and
• 56:52
  Speaker 5: you look at these ancient mystic gardens, they were always
• 56:56
  Speaker 5: places that you would come to and generally in the
• 56:59
  Speaker 5: center would be a well you have the story of
• 57:01
  Speaker 5: the chestnut tree and the fish, and these ideas of
• 57:05
  Speaker 5: coming there for stinering and meditation and contemplation, and the
• 57:10
  Speaker 5: idea that that it was a nurturing environment for the
• 57:16
  Speaker 5: purpose of enlightenment.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I think that the garden is a and
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: Freedom talks about this, and Freedom Cole wrote the forward
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: to the book He's my My, My biggest strongest teacher,
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: and talks about how in India there are still a
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: lot of gardens that are associated with temples and so on,
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: which are designed to be a spiritual to have spiritual
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: influence and to to And that's part of the goal too,
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: is with a garden like this is to is to
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: transmit beneficial influence, spiritual influence. You know. That's that's like
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: what I'm that's the goal.
• 57:58
  Speaker 5: That's a beautiful goal.
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: It's fun too, you know, Oh yeah, for sure, for sure, Isaac.
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: I have a follow up for that. That was a
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: great question, Robbie, or great observation both that. But sort
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: of like the making of the mandola and making of
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: the garden. Can you think of it in terms of
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: mounds and like sort of the crimordial we'll say, or
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: ancient earthworking? Is there a similarity? Do you consider there
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: to be a connection?
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure there is, And so I'm not an
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: expert on the mounds were on megaliths, but I know
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: that a lot of megaliths were oriented towards particular stars, equinoxes,
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: and so on so on, and they were And the
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: thing is with mounds, I'm under the impression that they
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: were also these places where a person would go become
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: a spirit of the land. There and be a guardian
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: of that land. And also there's like this this transmission
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: of tu luric energy radiating uh, and the so I
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: do I see it basically is a fundament fundamentally the
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: same thing of this uniting of celestial and tulluric energy
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: than the radiation of that energy. So in that same
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: basic way, yeah, probably yeah, But that that wasn't like
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: a main like thing I was thinking about.
• 59:36
  Speaker 4: No, I know, I kind of feel on you.
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: My apologies. It was just because it reminded me when
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: you were talking about like the movement of the earth
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: and then you know, like there is the relationship right
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: like you're saying of the above and then below and
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: where are you're meeting what you're meeting in the like, well,
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: it's not the primordial ground, but you're you're maybe getting
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: closer to that dialectical rectification or synthesis both. And I
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: also think it's interesting that you kind of pause it
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: that it mounds again. I know it's not your subject.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: I'm not trying to go somewhere you don't want to go.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: But I think it's interesting that you said almost that
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: people become Yaksha's or like the sort of like the
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: spirits of the land in a way from the positionality
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: of the mound.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: Well, this is a fear that I've heard before, is that,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: you know, the mounds are sort of a precursor to
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: the Pyramids, and uh as like a way for it.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: Like back in the day, you know, a high, highly
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: funk the spiritual master would go at the end of
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: their life go into what you consider in India still
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: like a master goes into Samadi, you know, and they
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: give their giving offerings to that that master. You know.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: I visited the shrine of of Shria Chutananda das in Risa,
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: who's the the spiritual head of the vidstrology of lineage
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: that I practiced. He's been dead, well he's been in
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: Samadi for four hundred years plus, but he's still there
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: right and there are still people who are feeding him
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: every day, and there are celebrations for his birthday which
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: we were able to go to where there's hundreds of
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: people there, and he's still transmitting beneficial influence to the
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: land around him, and he's still interacting with his students.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: So you know, like that, that's the kind of thing
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: I think that the mounds were part of. And I
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: have no idea if that's true, but like it's it's
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: a similar tradition in terms of like that that sort
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: of the function of a mound would be like this,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: this master would be there and then be the guardian
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: of that land and so in that way becoming a
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: spirit of the land because they're a guardian of that area.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: But again, like I'm you know that's true. I I
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: I know this about Sri Chiftana Das. I've visited Shrian
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: Chafkana Das. I'm not sure if this is the same
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: exact thing that's happening with mounds, but that's a theory
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: that I've heard that makes sense to me.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 5: Mm hmm, and those they do echo, so yeah, it
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 5: does make sense.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And then like JMG has has said that there's
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: a similarity with that, like the vampire tradition could also
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: be seen as a u a debasement of that tradition,
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: right where like the etheric revenant is needs to feed
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: on the etheric energy of of other people epistol.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's the interesting thing about the Sanskrit literature.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: There are so many ways to understand the spirit classifications
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: and like how can you become what and can you
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: become what is it just a state of consciousness? Sure,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: it's a state of consciousness, but it's a state of
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: living reality.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: Also that it's there's it's a you know, complicated and
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: interconnected web.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and I'm I'm I'm just a
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: student really too, you know, like I'm just like I
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: don't know what I have ideas about things, but I'm
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: there's so much to learn, There's so much and I
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: don't know that much in the grand scheme of things
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: at all. So I don't know I said that much.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: I don't know anything. I think that's just.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: Speculative, just totally speculative. We're just speculative, you know, astrology,
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, I know it's real again, but like yeah.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: Right, and there are there are things that I do know,
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: you know, they're like I've worked with charts so much,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: like I can see you when things are working, I
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: can see you know, like I mean like I got
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: first that experience of things. But there's there's just like
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: the realm of spirit is so vast, very much.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 5: So yeah, I think anybody on the path of learning,
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 5: you know, as far as lifelong learning and exploring and
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 5: seeking higher understandings that we all feel as though we
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 5: know very little because the more we know, the more
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 5: we realize the less we know.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure, Uh, I.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 4: Do know.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: You do have like Rahu and Kattoo plus Uranus, Neptune
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: and Pluto. How do you kind of fit those in
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: into the planets or you know what the correspondence is
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 3: considering they're kind of like newer going by the traditional.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: Well, Rahu and K two are rather old than traditional still,
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: like the oldest texts don't really work with the nodes,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: but you know, like Fata astrology works with the nodes.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: Traditional Arabic astrology works with the nodes. Like really the
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: traditional astrology has it's it's nine planets as well, it's
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: the seven physical planets and nodes, and so they are
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: very important. And in the tradition of video astrology that
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: I that I am in, we see the nodes as
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: co rulers of signs. So Rahu the north node co
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: rules Aquarius and has this Milita Kona in Virgo and
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: is an exaltation in Gemini, so he's associated with those signs.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: And K two also has a Scorpio and Pisces and
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: and Sagittarius as the exaltation. But so there is this
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: traditional association of those signs, and I see it working
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: all the time, Like in people's charts, I can see
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: like I can see them working as the lords of
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: those signs. So if we're talking about a zodiac garden
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: and we're talking about the plants being associated with the
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: signs based on the planets that rule those signs, there
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: you can factor that into your selection criteria and so,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: but in general, Rahu rules the confusing plants and psychoactive plants,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: and in terms of like, like cannabis would be considered
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: a raw HU plant, whereas K two is more like
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: psychedelic like psilocybin. Mushrooms would be more of a K
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: two mushrooms are plants, but you know, substance. And then
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: in terms of Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, most modern astrologers work
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: with those planets, so it felt like I should include them,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: and you know, I do work with them to not
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: day to day as much, you know, like I am
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: more of a traditionalist in terms of like, but like,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: still I have Urinus in a very important place in
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: my chart, and I in from a modern perspective reading
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: reading the chart from from that perspective, it it makes
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: sense and like it has a lot of significant things
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: to say. If I'm reading the chart from the Vatic perspective,
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: I don't even use Urinus at all, you know what
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, because it's not it's not part of that language.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: There are plenty of data astrologers who do use Urinus,
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: but in my traditional don't. But so most people do
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: use these and I found that there is a very
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: simp there's a similarity between Uranus and Rahu, and between
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: Neptune and K two.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 4: Amen.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: Sorry, I just want to say that because as Isaac knows,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: I I well, we discussed it on this episode, but
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: I say this all the time, and people do not
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: love it. I'm just gonna say, but thank you Isaac
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: for saying it.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: Well, they're obviously very different, but there are some similarities,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: some similarities of both what signs they rule. So in
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: modern astrology, Urinus rules Aquarius and in traditional Veata astrology,
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: Rahu rules Aquarius. They both symbolize the the eccentric, the technology,
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: the outsider, shock and trauma, so there there are there
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: are some there are some differences too, but there are
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of similarities. And so they but Uranus is
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: more of this like electrical planet, this more very technological planet,
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: and so we can have things that the nervous system
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: is ruled by Uranus in modern astrology, so we can
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: see plants that are working on this urine on the
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: nervous system, plants that are that will stun the nervous
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: system as a as a urine your Uranian planet. And
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: then for Neptune, Neptune is the plant the planet in
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: the modern context of mysticism, mass movements, the you know
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: this the the the unconscious to like the this murky realm.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: And K two is also this planet of of going outside.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: It's like the it's transcendence, it's loss, it's enlightenment. So
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: there's also this mystical quality to K two, But Neptune
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: is more planet. Plants that would be associated with Neptune
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: are more more things like opium poppy, things that are narcotics,
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: things that may can go to sleep and also misted
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: and mystically, I mean like I could even see psilocybin
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: as a Neptunian type of of of substance as well.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: But you can argue that you can see that as
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: a ur Uranian one as well, So it depends L
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: S D. I would consider a Uranian substance, right, So,
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: and then I don't really work with Pluto much at all.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: I use that kind of as like a fixed star
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: if i'm if, i'm if, I am working with it
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: because it moves so slowly, and it's not because really
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: it's not any bigger than any of the other subplanets,
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: like there's like Series and so on. There's there's a
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: lot of them, and there are a lot of modern
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: astrologers who use those those planetoids very well, you know,
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: but it doesn't factor in the in the the the
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: languages that I work with as much. But of course
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: Pluto has this underworld association, so plant plants relating to
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: death you could see there, and then a Pluto would
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: as an affinity for Scorpio.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 4: So mm hmm.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 5: Would you consider these planetoids more a modern machination or
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 5: do you see hints of that in the ancient as well?
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: They're definitely modern, yeah, I mean in the ancient we
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: were looking at fixed stars maybe, you know, but planetoids
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: not not really comets, you know. Always omen Now, I
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: have a question, would it be all right if I
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: went to the bathroom, very quickly, very quickly. Okay, I'm
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: squirming here right back.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 4: You got anything you want to add to any of this?
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, obviously I agree totally with Isaac, and I
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: like wanted I wanted him to answer, because obviously I've
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: talked about it many times, but I do. That's why
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: when what we've had, You've had certain people on and
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: they did not really love that, but then you had
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: master magicians on, like David Rankin, and he agreed with me.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: He thought that that is the you know, reconciliation of
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: the supernal triad, of the Kabbala, of the planets, and
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: of the two East and West systems, is that you
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: give an attribution to Uranus of Rahu and then you
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: give Ketu to Neptune, which totally makes sense if you
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: listen to what Isaac said, like, yeah, there's a slight differences,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: like I would say that Rahu actually rules the manufactured
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: drugs rather than a plant, and Ketu then you could
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: say covers all psychoactives except for alcohol, which is a
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: little different. So yeah, basically I think that, yeah, what
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: Isaac said, I think one hundred percent true, and I
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: think it's a what I liked about Isaac's book, like
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: even initially because I obviously follow him on Instagram and
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: watch his show, is that he in his book he
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: actually made a case for the existence of a Rahu
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: Katu like figure in the Western tradition. I think he
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: even opens a chapter where he talks about like the
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: chemical dragon, and I was like, wow, that is extremely
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: like Rahu kattoo, sounding like if you understand what Rahu
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: Katu is, then you'll know what he's talking about. So yeah,
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: I totally agree.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: Nice.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 3: Interesting, you know, uh, oh, you probably know this isn't Rahu.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 3: Rahu is involved with the the eclipse mythology in India, right.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Rahu is is what creates the eclipse, is the
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: shadow on the moon, and so that's why it's like ink.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: Well, you know they're the the Rahu and kur the
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: north and the south note of the of the moon.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: So then the ecliptic is the path of the sun
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: that the sun goes through every day, and then the
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: moon goes has a snake like path going south and
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: north of the ecliptic, right, uh. And at those points
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: where it goes north, that point is the north note,
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: the point that goes south is the south note, and
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: those are the only places that an eclipse can happen.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: So if the moon is there or close to that
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: that ecliptic during a lunation, then an eclipse happens. And
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: since they're they're those two points are always opposite in
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: both you know, traditional Arabic Western astrology and in Big astrology,
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: the north note is seen as the head of either
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: the demon or the dragon or the serpent, and the
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: tail is K two is you know, the tail of
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: the dragon. But that's it's a dragon that swallows the
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: sun or the moon during the eclipse. That's why they're
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: also seen as like these molific objects or.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 5: Entities, the swallowing of the moon you see in so
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 5: many cultures globally.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a frog.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 3: I did a two part series on eclipse stuffy some
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 3: interesting stories that they back in the day about why
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 3: these eclipse were happening.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 4: A frog or a wolf or dragons.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 5: Raven I think in Alaska.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Rahu wears a raven's crown, right, so he
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: has like the head of Shawnee or the vahana of
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: Shaani on his head because he like Saturn, is what
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: keeps him. That's what that keeps Rawhu here in material form,
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: if you want to call him a material form, and
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: it's what Kettu seeks to escape, is that grasp of Shawni.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: So it's interesting because in Buddhism, obviously we do treat
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: him as like a wrathful Buddha, so he's considered tamed
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: right for us. So he's like and even you see
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: this in like Thailand and like all Southeast Asian kind
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: of magic. Even in Japan to a little bit, you
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: see people like worshiping Rahu Ketu as like a sort
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: of he's not really transgressive, but he's like he's considered
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: very dualistic and very powerful, so he can give you
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: great boons, but he can also make your life kind
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: of miserable if you screw it up. So I'm not
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: advocating anyone folk magic with Rocku Katsu or anything like that.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: I'm just I'm simply just talking about an anthropological like
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: you know, something that actually happens like on the ground.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, great potent potent entities.
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 4: Was there anything else that you wanted to keep going
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 4: on about or include with what you were saying in
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 4: earlier or anything you want to ask.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay, so I do have a question for Isaac,
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: like an actual question this time. My apologies, Isaac. What
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: are some plants that you think are really great for
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: a magical garden? And maybe just like layout, like you
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: don't have to do I won't. We won't ask you
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: to do seven unless Nick wants you to do seven.
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: But I mean just give like your top your personal
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: top three, and like what planets they're associated with, and
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: why you like them and ways that people could think
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: of them magically.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: Sure, okay, so I'll do a couple and like what
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: what right now? You know? And right now we have
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: angelica blooming. And Angelica is just such a superb plant.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: It's one of the most potent magical plant allies that
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: you can become friends with. And there's two species that
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: I work with. The first is Angelica arch angelica, which
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: is the European species, and then there's the local native
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: species to hear, which is Angelica atro proporea purple stem angelica,
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: And they're basically they're very similar and they're used basically
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: the same way in native tribes throughout the US. Work
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: with purple stem angelica as a plant of purification and
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: spiritual like blessing and protection. And in Europe Angelica arch
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: Angelica is this very it's like that it's an apotropic
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: herb par excellence, and that just means it removes evil influence.
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: So it's like one of the best plants you can
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: grow to protect yourself from evil influence, you know, breaking hexes,
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: breaking curses, protecting yourself from negative hostile energies, influences entities
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: and and yeah, blessing with the angelic influence, with the
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: angelic influence. And so this is an herb. Yeah, so
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: it's considered trashly considered an herb of the sun because
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: the sun rules apotropaic herbs. It's also a it's a
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: hot and dry herb. It's used as stimulating herb aromatic.
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: Those are all very you know that that hot and
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: dry is rude by the sun as well, so in
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: the asla medicinal uses as well. But magically it is
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: just really a potent plant and people you know, will
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: wear the root as an amulet for protection and removal
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: of of unwanted energies. And there's a lot of ways
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: to work with it in solar talismans or amulets or
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: whatever you're gonna do. And it's a it's it's not
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: it's not a beginner plant necessarily, because it does sometimes
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: you need fresh seed for it to grow well from seed,
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: and you can kind of only grow from seed, and
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: it's a biennial or a short lived perennial. But if
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: you get good, good fresh seed, you can grow it
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: yourself and it'll and then you can keep a population
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: going with the seed that it that it has. So yeah,
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: Angelica and and that's in the book. I have that
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: in the Leo med So that's definitely one of my
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: favorite plants, and especially right now. It's a potent magical plant.
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: And I get lemon ball. You know, we were talking
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: about that earlier. Lemon bolm is a great magical plant.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: And again the the alchemists say, just to start your
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: alchemical work with if you're doing the spajeriks, start with
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: with lemon bomb, and lemon bam will kind of doing
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: the the the the speejark of lemon bomb will then
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: teach you how to do the the rest of the planets.
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you, Yeah, go ahead. So, oh, I didn't
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 4: have anything. I was being good. I was like being
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 4: a listener something is there anything else? You're good, Jen, And.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm good. I I feel like that was a
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: great attribution. And you know, Angelica is very powerful. We're
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 2: in like a kind of crazy urinous Gemini cycle. It's
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: very tumultuous. I think a lot of people feel it.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: But I also feel like it's also containable, and I
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: feel like there's a part of just like kattoo, you know,
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: or Rahu Rahu ktu both eclipse the sun or can
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: they can?
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 4: You know?
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: I think that's part of like the Uranian energy. And
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: I think that's also like why maybe this time it
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: feels like a little lesson than it did like earlier,
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: like maybe say five years ago, when there was a
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: series of insane eclipse eclipses. So I think like now
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: we actually have like more of a grasp, like a
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 2: lot more people are very aware of like astrological cycles,
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 2: metaphysics even just to like a little bit, and like,
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: as I always say, like if you just meditate and
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: get your mind right first, you're like, that's that's like
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: seventy five percent of the battle in magic is like
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: to be able to like, you know, it doesn't mean
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: that everything is going to go perfect, but It's just
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: that's a great way to start at least remediation rather
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: than like you know, even gross out or ritual, which
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 2: I'm not against. I'm just I think that it should
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: be in your mind because that's where the plarities really arise.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 4: Thank if somebody was to I mean, what are I
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 4: guess maybe in your experience, what could be some of
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 4: the mistakes sometimes you see it done, maybe when storing
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 4: these things.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: There's so many different mistakes on different levels that can happen.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, because there's also so many miss there's Gardening
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: itself has kind of a learning curve, you know, so
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of things that beginners will will
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: make mistakes with just in gardening in terms of like
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: having making sure the soil is good, Like the soil
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: is so important for my Zodiac garden. I actually I
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: had a compost pile in that area for three years.
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: So when I actually went that went to make the
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: Zodiac garden, the soil was really really good because I've
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: been making compost piles there. But you got to have
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: good soil if you want good plants. And then also
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: you know, choosing the right plant for the right location,
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: you know, like some plants just don't do well in
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: the full sun, some plants don't do well in the shade.
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: Some plants need more water, some plants need less. You
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: have to, you know, make sure you're looking at like
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: how big a plant gets, because you might this little
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: seed and then it's like in two years it's just huge, huge, huge,
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: you know, and then you're like you can't get past
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: the path, you know, you have to cut it back completely.
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: So little things like that that come just with like
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: gardening and like learning about gardening, and like making sure
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: you water your plants as well and keep them watered
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: if there's no there's no ring, but don't overwater them
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: if you know. So there's all there's all those kind
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: of kind of things that are really important. And then
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: in terms of I think one thing, and this may
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: be I hope that I don't exacerbate the sentency because
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: I have the sency myself, and it's too kind of
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: go off the deep end and take on too much
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: at once, and so I think it's better to start
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: small and slow and like one step at a time.
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: Time.
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: So if you're interested in astrological gardening but you're not
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: an astrologer, just start with the moon. Just start with
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: paying attention to the moon, what sign the moon is in,
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: what phase of the moon is in what planets the
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: moon is conjuncting, is conjointing conjuncting, And then you can
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: get into like what aspects the moon is making and
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: so on. But like, just start with with the moon,
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: where it is in the sky and what its face is. Yeah,
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: so does that is?
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: That?
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: Is that good?
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 2: M hm?
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 5: And I think all those things, by the natural essence
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 5: of working with the soil and the time and the plant,
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 5: bring you as an individual into a stronger connection with
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 5: you know, nature and the reality that we exist within,
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 5: which is kind of what a lot of people are
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 5: really kind of looking for, but they don't know the
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 5: path to take in order to be able to facilitate
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 5: grounding themselves, you know.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do. There's a practice that I really
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 1: recommend is just like every day, go out there and
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: greet the sun. The first time you see the sun,
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: just say hail sunk. Yeah. And whenever you see the
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: moon for the first time in the night, greet the moon,
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: you know, and you're just getting into forming relationships with
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: those those those beings.
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 3: In just in Crowley even suggested that with the moon,
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 3: every time you see the moon that greeted at night,
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 3: just a hard.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 4: Relationship with it.
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a question here. I mean I think you
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 3: might have answered it before, but that specifically for this though.
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 3: Are there any specific plants or planets crystals for purification
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 3: of water?
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: You mean, for like purifying water to drink or for
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: like ceremonial ceremonial use, Because.
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 4: That's a good question.
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 1: Two different things. I mean, to drink, I would just
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: use charcoal. Charcoal, Yeah, personally, make a charcoal filter, sand
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: and charcoal.
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 5: I've heard some stuff about shun guide as well, putting
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 5: shun guid in the water to structure it, but it.
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 4: Did as crystals.
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I was wondering. Yeah, I was actually wondering
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 3: if there was any plants. I'm thinking like irrigation or
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 3: something like that. It was like, is there any plants that, like,
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 3: you know, like like running water actually gets cleaned by him.
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 4: A little bit?
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so if you have, But I don't, like, yeah.
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 4: That's what that's what they're getting at. But that's where
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 4: I actually thought, And so you brought up the other Yeah,
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 4: I didn't even think of that. Angle.
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean is great. But yeah in terms
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: of like purifying dirty water, in terms of growing in it,
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: like for like a biofilter type thing. There are all
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: these amazing wetland plants, like like calamus, but also like
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: irises and cattails. Yeah, a lot of great plants. Well,
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: I also am very partial. Notice I don't know how
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: great of a purific purifying plant more like gray waters. Yeah,
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: just any of those wetland plants are great, like cattail,
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: et cetera. Yeah. I also like there's a swamp rose.
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: I really like swamp rose. It's a native rose around
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: here which grows in swamp, can grow in wet, wet conditions,
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: and it has really pretty flowers. So but it's thorny,
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: so you know.
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 5: So I have one last little thing that I kind
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 5: of always follow up with. I've been working with my
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 5: dreams for several years. Do you relate this in any
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 5: way to working with dream states in regard the dream
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 5: incubation or any kind of process in regard to the
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 5: growing in the moon, and you know, the moon having
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 5: to do with sleep and growth, it's a kind of
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 5: does that tie in in any way?
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: Well, it can you know if that hasn't been my
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: main I haven't been working with dreams as at the
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: forefront over the last that's been my focus rightly. But
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: certainly like you can you know, growing growing your your
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: sleep and dreaming herbs in the bed or in the
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: Pisces bed you Pisces a sleep as well because pace
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 1: is that twelve house mm hmm, then then they could
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: be more potent. And also like you know, we can
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 1: work with the Zodiac garden as a ritual space and
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: you can certainly like do a ritual in in there
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: to then you know before you go to bed that
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: kind of thing too. Yeah, but you know, and again
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 1: like my my goal kind of with this the Zodiac
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: gardeness is to demonstrate this kind of a garden and
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: show how it can be done. So people with whatever
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: their particular focuses, they can go off and make a
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 1: Zodiac garden for them for their purposes.
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 5: So optimize it for their own individual use.
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like whether they're a herbalist or they're a Hohodu
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: practitioner or they're you know, whatever they're doing. You know,
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 1: definitely definitely.
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 4: So when it comes to this book, what is one
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 4: thing you hope the people that read it get from it.
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So I guess the one important thing is is
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: just to understand that, you know, the correspondence, like how
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: plants and plants, plants and planets and signs are correspondent
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: and why like there are it's not arbitrary, but there
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: are different ways of relating and just kind of like
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: going through, you know, going through that process and seeing
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: how that that can happen. That's kind of one of
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 1: the main things. And just seeing one thing to get
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: away to is just like, yeah, if you're reading the
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: book is too. Hopefully it depends on where they're where
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: they are too, But if they aren't at a place
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: where they're seeing things as this interconnected like animate universe
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: with this relational principle, then hopefully helping them having an
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 1: avenue towards that way of seeing the world. And there
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: are you know, there are plenty of people who have
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 1: that way of seeing the world and and hopefully they
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: take away like a way at practical ways of actually
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: making this garden. You know. So again it's like it
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: depends on who's reading it.
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 4: That's a good point. No, that was a great way.
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 4: That was a great way to answer it. Thank you.
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 4: Thank you. Thanks.
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 3: Anybody else have any more questions or anything they wanted
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 3: to add before we wrap it up?
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 4: You guys are good, all right? U Isaac?
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 3: Before we let you plug all you stuff again, we'll
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 3: have a Robbie let everybody know wherey can find this stuff. Jen,
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 3: please let everybody know what's open to you and Threshold
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 3: Saints in the Gray Lodge.
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 2: Sure, thanks so much, Nick, and thank you to Robbie,
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 2: and thank you to Isaac especially. And I have some
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: really sick title art for Isaac when that episode dropped,
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 2: So let me just say I took care of him
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: so because I liked his book so much and it
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 2: was like a really interesting conversation. So as obviously this
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 2: was so people want to follow me, they just just
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 2: look up at Threshold Saints. I'm on ig X, as
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: I said, substack and of course YouTube and you can
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 2: also find the Gray Lodge there. Yes, our series on
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 2: Apafennion will continue to part three. That will be the
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 2: finale for that, and our Southeast Sinister Traditions in Southeast
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: Asia series will also continue. We've got the next part
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 2: on Burmese. Weitsa magic So I don't know what we're
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 2: doing this week quite yet, but we will do be
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 2: doing one of those, so look out for that. I
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 2: just an episode with Brad Kelly his new book The
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 2: Earth and Dark. Really cool, I would say, love Crafty
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 2: and Kenneth Granty and Kenny g his sort of reinterpretation
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 2: of the Tunnels of Detroit and the Hyperspace Kingdom. So
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 2: obviously lots of territory that I covered with him, And
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 2: thank you guys so much, appreciate it.
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 4: Thank you, Jin, I appreciate you making it. And Robbie
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 4: Marks my man, what is going on?
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's always a great time coming on and especially
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 5: this topic. I was not expecting you know where we
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 5: were going, and it was great how you just were
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 5: able to tie it up into such a nice little package.
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 5: The very enjoyable talk. Thank you Isaac and Jen always
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 5: it's it's great to have you on and talk to
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 5: you as well. And I am our Marx artist illustrator.
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 5: You can check out all my work at my link
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 5: tree which is link Tree r M A r X
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 5: and that has all my various social media and my
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 5: website with all my art, my podcast, the Metal Mind Cast,
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 5: and ways that you can you know, get in touch
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 5: with me. So and again, thanks a lot, Cardinal Electric Head.
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 4: Thank you man, thank you. No, I appreciate you coming on.
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah for sure.
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 4: Hell yeah, I didn't know, I believe it or not.
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 4: I didn't know you were so big into this stuff.
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 5: Oh man, it's kind of been a lot of this
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 5: stuff is subtext, like that's in the background of a
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 5: lot of the past that you kind of follow through.
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 5: This this garden of reality, you know. No, no, so yeah, no, no,
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 5: this is this was great.
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah cool man, No, I was excited.
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely still into herbs and I mean again, I'm
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 3: doing a series on them by how they affect you
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 3: your cranial nerves, So I mean yeah, I still have
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 3: a way that I'm quite interested in that.
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, interested in that stuff. But yeah, thank you Robbie
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 4: for making it. That was it was great.
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 3: It was great to have you on. And Isaac, please
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 3: let everybody know what's up with you. The book where
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 3: they can find it, this and that.
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: So first, thank you Cardinal Electric Head for having me
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 1: on the show. Yeah, and Gin thanks for setting it
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 1: up and making this happen. And it's a pleasure to
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: meet you. Robbie. So the book it's available on Amazon.
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: So I'm self publishing through Amazon, and so that's the
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: only way to get it right now. I can send
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 1: you a PDF if you want to email me at
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: Ask guys aget gmail dot com. Ask Guys of Kill
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. That's also where you can email
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: me if you'd like to set up a vetic astrology reading.
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 1: So again, ask is a kill and it's A S
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 1: K I S A A C H I L L
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. And then you can find my
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 1: podcast at Plant Cunning. We're on YouTube, Spotify, all those
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: podcast places. We're also on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok in terms
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: of like if I make a short video, I'll just
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 1: put it on all those places. I'm not really interacting
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 1: on like TikTok it very much, but we're there if
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: that's your primary, you know, social media. I'm I'm starting
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: a substack, but that's not really there yet. And you know,
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 1: that's just that's where I'm at right now. And also
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 1: we are having a conference at our at our small
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: farm focused on herbalism more and that's July twenty fourth
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: through twenty sixth and the Central New York State. So
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: if you're interested in that kind of stuff, you can
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: find it more about that at plant cunning dot com
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: and I think that's is that everything? Yeah, I think so.
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 3: If you want after the show, you know, you can
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 3: send me whatever links you want and I'll add them
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 3: into the show notes. I was just checking your Instagram
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 3: now to see if maybe you had a link tree
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 3: with all of them on there, but I don't think
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 3: you doing that.
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I should probably do that.
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 4: Huh oh No, well I I.
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 3: Wasn't trying to make it sound like you should, but no,
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 3: I was just checking out if there was something I
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 3: could grab real quick. So yeah, you when you're done,
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 3: please send me the stuff and I'll definitely edit in
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 3: here for people to click on. But thank you very
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 3: much for coming on. I really appreciate it. Again, I'm
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 3: very much into the herbs, especially you know again, the
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 3: way you were doing it, it just reminded me of
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 3: people that I've looked at in the renaissance. It was like,
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 3: it's really nice to see people still doing that. Well, yeah, Jen,
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 3: thank you for making it, Robbie, thank you for making it.
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 3: Everybody in the chat that is what's up. Thank you
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 3: for jumping in and questions and comments. That's why we
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 3: go live. And until the next one, everybody be well.
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 4: Lada