Latest / Story Magic / 81 - Character want vs need

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81 - Character want vs need · Story Magic

• 2:28
  Rachel: Hey, writers, welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.
• 2:32
  Emily: I'm Emily.
• 2:33
  Rachel: And I'm Rachel.
• 2:35
  Emily: And today we are going to talk about want versus need in character arcs.
• 2:40
  Emily: So this came from a listener question.
• 2:42
  Emily: If you are not aware, you can send questions to us at any time that we will answer on the podcast, and you can email them to podcastoldenmayediting.com with podcast question in the subject line, and then we will eventually get to it on the podcast.
• 2:59
  Emily: So this is.
• 3:01
  Emily: Yeah, it could take us a while.
• 3:05
  Emily: Who knows?
• 3:06
  Rachel: Thank you for being patient.
• 3:09
  Emily: But I love this question because this.
• 3:12
  Emily: This sort of crosses other people's craft teachings with our craft teachings, and I think it's a really, really great question.
• 3:20
  Emily: So I'm going to read the question, and then we can jump in.
• 3:23
  Emily: So this is from Sarah, and Sarah asked.
• 3:26
  Emily: I've heard of want first need in character arcs.
• 3:29
  Emily: I understand the want is the external goal, but I'm confused about what the need is.
• 3:34
  Emily: Is the need the internal goal?
• 3:35
  Emily: Or is it the healed belief?
• 3:35
  Emily: Or is it both together?
• 3:39
  Rachel: Awesome. Thanks, Sarah.
• 3:41
  Rachel: This is a good question, and I think my first.
• 3:48
  Rachel: We're going to answer this with, like, how we interpret what other people teach the need as.
• 3:53
  Rachel: Because as we've said, there's.
• 3:55
  Rachel: There's overlap between what we teach and what other people teach.
• 3:58
  Rachel: There's also, like, lots of craft terms that get thrown around or used.
• 4:01
  Rachel: And I'm not.
• 4:02
  Rachel: I'm not saying that disruptively.
• 4:03
  Rachel: They get, like, used in other teachings.
• 4:05
  Rachel: There are lots of different terminal.
• 4:07
  Rachel: There's lots of different terminology out there, and some of them have very parallel meaning.
• 4:14
  Rachel: I do understand the need as being the internal goal, as being like.
• 4:20
  Emily: Yeah, I think it can be.
• 4:22
  Emily: I think that is sort of up for debate, which is why I think this is such a good question.
• 4:28
  Rachel: I know.
• 4:28
  Rachel: Yes.
• 4:28
  Emily: Because.
• 4:29
  Emily: Okay, so maybe let's back up and let's define because.
• 4:32
  Emily: Because.
• 4:32
  Emily: Right.
• 4:32
  Emily: The question here is how does what you teach intersect with what other people teach?
• 4:35
  Emily: And so first let's define what we teach, and then we could kind of talk about how we've seen other people talk about these terms.
• 4:44
  Emily: So first.
• 4:45
  Emily: Right.
• 4:45
  Emily: The external goal.
• 4:46
  Emily: A character's external goal is what they know they want in a story.
• 4:51
  Emily: So, you know, it's win the Hunger Games or I'm like, any other.
• 4:56
  Emily: What are the other stories?
• 4:58
  Rachel: Any other book we know, Save the.
• 5:00
  Emily: Damsel, you know, like, whatever.
• 5:03
  Rachel: Win Prom Queen.
• 5:05
  Rachel: Great.
• 5:06
  Emily: Love it.
• 5:08
  Emily: And then the internal goal, as we teach it is the thing that they actually want.
• 5:13
  Emily: Right.
• 5:14
  Emily: It's the subconscious, usually deeper desire, deeper human desire that a character has that they think their external goal is going to give them.
• 5:26
  Emily: Right.
• 5:26
  Emily: So Katniss wants to win the Hunger Games because she wants safety for her family or whatever it is that her internal goal is.
• 5:34
  Emily: Right?
• 5:34
  Emily: So the internal goal is usually some version of, like, love or respect or fulfillment or safety, belonging.
• 5:40
  Emily: Belonging, things like that.
• 5:43
  Emily: It's something that the character is lacking at a deep human level that they are trying to get by going after their external goal.
• 5:50
  Emily: Yeah, so.
• 5:52
  Emily: So then you're exactly right.
• 5:54
  Emily: The want.
• 5:55
  Emily: The want in the want, need equation, which a lot of other writing teachers teach, is the external goal.
• 6:02
  Emily: It's the thing they want in the story.
• 6:04
  Emily: It's pretty straightforward.
• 6:05
  Emily: And I think the need.
• 6:08
  Emily: I like internal, internal goal better as a way, because they get at the same thing, right?
• 6:12
  Emily: There's this, like, external thing, journey that they're on and then this internal journey that they're on.
• 6:17
  Emily: And so the want is the external, the need is the internal, the external goal is the external, and the internal goal is the internal.
• 6:26
  Emily: But I think so, yes, I think it can be sometimes the internal goal, like you're saying, Rachel.
• 6:32
  Emily: But I. I also understand it as like, the want is the thing they think they want, but the need is the thing that they actually need.
• 6:44
  Emily: And I feel like that can be a little different from an internal goal.
• 6:48
  Emily: Like, I feel like it can overlap with, like, the thing they need to learn.
• 6:55
  Emily: And I'm struggling with, like, specifics.
• 6:58
  Rachel: Well, I mean, that's why this, that's why Sarah asked, is the need the internal goal or the healed belief?
• 7:02
  Rachel: Or is it both?
• 7:05
  Rachel: Yeah, and it probably depends on how you're.
• 7:08
  Rachel: You're setting this up, because another term that we have here is the healed belief, which is what we would call the story point.
• 7:14
  Rachel: So, and that's.
• 7:15
  Rachel: That's not necessarily, like us, like Lisa Kron calls it the story point.
• 7:18
  Rachel: I don't want to, like, steal anybody's terms, say their own.
• 7:20
  Rachel: But, like, the story point is the idea that, that, that is the lesson that the person is learning.
• 7:27
  Rachel: They don't know that.
• 7:28
  Rachel: So throughout their arc, they are letting go of the flawed belief, which is what we would call their internal obstacle belief.
• 7:36
  Rachel: They are letting go of how the.
• 7:39
  Rachel: That belief has messed up their life so that they can learn the lesson they need to learn the whole time, which would be the story point, the healed belief.
• 7:52
  Rachel: And you'll also see, like, the internal obstacle, which we have done episodes on extensively and talked about a lot.
• 7:59
  Rachel: Also called like the misbelief of or the lie.
• 8:05
  Rachel: There is other terminology out there, but it sounds like.
• 8:09
  Rachel: It sounds like there could be some overlap because if you're.
• 8:12
  Rachel: If you're thinking about it like the character doesn't know that this is what they really need.
• 8:18
  Rachel: And so it is the capital N need, the terminology need, then in some interpretation, that could be the story point lesson.
• 8:26
  Emily: They.
• 8:27
  Rachel: That's what they really need is to look at the world differently.
• 8:30
  Emily: Yeah. And I think that's what makes.
• 8:33
  Emily: I've always struggled with want verse need because of this ambi ambiguity.
• 8:38
  Emily: Because I do think that what the want verse need tool is trying to do is trying to put all those internal pieces into one term.
• 8:49
  Emily: So I just pulled up our craft complex characters guide because I'm like.
• 8:52
  Emily: I need to show.
• 8:53
  Emily: I need to like, use an example to show.
• 8:55
  Emily: So let's use Laia.
• 8:57
  Emily: So Laia in an Ember in the Ashes by Sabaa Tahir.
• 9:01
  Emily: Her external goal.
• 9:02
  Emily: So her want is to get the resistance, these other people to save her brother from prison.
• 9:09
  Emily: He's been arrested.
• 9:10
  Emily: She feels responsible for it.
• 9:12
  Emily: So she.
• 9:13
  Emily: She's trying to get other people to do that.
• 9:15
  Emily: Her internal goal is to make right her failure of leaving her brother behind because she thinks that she was weak.
• 9:22
  Emily: She thinks she's inherently weak and so she can't save him, couldn't save him by herself.
• 9:27
  Emily: So she needs to get other people to do it.
• 9:29
  Emily: So if I was thinking of Lia in a want verse need equation, I would say her want is to get other people to save her brother.
• 9:35
  Emily: Her need is to learn that she can save her brother herself.
• 9:38
  Emily: And I think that.
• 9:39
  Emily: Right.
• 9:40
  Emily: That's not quite her internal goal.
• 9:42
  Emily: Her internal goal is to make right her failure.
• 9:44
  Emily: Um, but her need is to, like, realize that she is the one who can do that, which is baked into.
• 9:51
  Emily: Right.
• 9:51
  Emily: Her story point belief that her power lies in her own hands.
• 9:55
  Emily: So it is.
• 9:55
  Emily: It's kind of like this internal goal and story point, like, mushed together.
• 9:59
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 10:00
  Emily: It's like the need is what they need to learn about how they'll actually get their internal goal.
• 10:07
  Rachel: I don't.
• 10:08
  Rachel: It's cool.
• 10:09
  Rachel: I mean, it's not.
• 10:10
  Rachel: It's not speaking to me.
• 10:11
  Rachel: I can see why, like, there's a reason why we have these things teased apart.
• 10:16
  Emily: Yeah.
• 10:16
  Rachel: There's a reason why we think about it in a little different terms.
• 10:22
  Rachel: But I do think, like, whatever is going to make sense to you.
• 10:27
  Rachel: Great.
• 10:28
  Rachel: If that's what makes sense to you.
• 10:29
  Rachel: Awesome.
• 10:31
  Rachel: That's so cool.
• 10:32
  Rachel: And like, that's the whole point of making craft work for your brain.
• 10:35
  Rachel: Because the theory behind this is still the same where you have a character who is trying to achieve a goal.
• 10:45
  Rachel: And that could be the external goal or the, or the want, right?
• 10:47
  Rachel: Like you have a character doing something in a plot that is always going to be storytelling, right?
• 10:55
  Rachel: Then you have like on, on the internal side, on the inside of that.
• 11:00
  Rachel: There are other motivators for why they want that goal, why they're trying to achieve that goal.
• 11:05
  Rachel: Like that's, that's the theory is that they have a deeper, a deeper reasoning, a deeper motivation for why all this matters to them and what they hope to get out of it, why they're doing it.
• 11:19
  Rachel: And they still need to change in order to get that meaning, like find, achieve that success that they're looking for and be like internally fulfilled.
• 11:32
  Rachel: To find the internal goal that, for Laia, that forgiveness, that, that like, ability to say that she, she fixed it, right?
• 11:40
  Rachel: Like she, she fixed it all.
• 11:44
  Rachel: She doesn't have to feel guilty, she doesn't have to feel bad, could.
• 11:46
  Rachel: Because she did it.
• 11:47
  Rachel: Like she.
• 11:48
  Rachel: There's a lot of reasoning there, but she still has to learn something in order to achieve that and to find.
• 11:54
  Emily: Yeah, she has to film it.
• 11:56
  Emily: And I think, right, baked into the want versus need is this idea of.
• 12:00
  Emily: And into our character tables, right?
• 12:01
  Emily: Is this idea that they have to change before they can get the thing that they actually need, right?
• 12:05
  Emily: The thing that the internal, like that there's this idea that what they want isn't exactly what's going to get them, you know, that they're going to change and they're going to maybe have a different desire or they're going to find a different way to go about doing it by the end of the story.
• 12:22
  Emily: And so, yeah, I think that's a really good point.
• 12:24
  Emily: If you understand like, right, if external and internal goal work for you, just use those.
• 12:30
  Emily: You don't need to understand how want first need work, right?
• 12:33
  Emily: If you already have a tool that works for you.
• 12:36
  Emily: If you're like, want for first need works so well for me, your six piece character table is way too much.
• 12:41
  Emily: That's fine, right?
• 12:41
  Emily: I know that there are people who are like that, who like the simplicity of want versus need and don't need to break their character into six individual psychic psyche pieces, right?
• 12:53
  Emily: It's all about, like Rachel said, finding the tools that click for you, that work for you.
• 13:00
  Emily: And like, beyond that, you don't, you don't need to fit your story into every structure that's out there.
• 13:05
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 13:05
  Emily: To make it valid.
• 13:07
  Rachel: Exactly.
• 13:08
  Rachel: I mean, that's why at the heart of everything that we teach, we're still teaching, like, understand the purpose this craft tool serves, understand the theory behind character arcs, and then take whatever terminology makes the most sense to you and apply that.
• 13:23
  Rachel: Or, like, figure out, maybe make up your own terminology.
• 13:27
  Rachel: You can do that if you want.
• 13:29
  Emily: We did that.
• 13:30
  Rachel: We did that.
• 13:31
  Rachel: Like, it's okay to, like, try to make this make sense for you, but, like, the.
• 13:36
  Rachel: The theory of arcs remain the same.
• 13:39
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 13:39
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 13:41
  Rachel: Cool.
• 13:42
  Emily: Cool. Thanks for this question, Sarah.
• 13:44
  Rachel: Yeah, this was a wonderful question.
• 13:45
  Rachel: If you are listening and you are like, I have a question too, and I want you to answer it, email us@podcastoldenmayediting.com put podcast question in the subject line, and we will get to it one day.
• 14:03
  Rachel: No, but, like, we will get to it.
• 14:05
  Rachel: Don't worry.
• 14:06
  Rachel: We will absolutely answer it.
• 14:07
  Rachel: Because these are.
• 14:08
  Rachel: We've had a lot of awesome questions come in the inbox, and that's wonderful.
• 14:12
  Rachel: So thank you.
• 14:12
  Rachel: If you have submitted a question, we see it.
• 14:14
  Rachel: We're.
• 14:14
  Rachel: We're going to get to it.
• 14:15
  Rachel: So thank you so much.
• 14:16
  Rachel: Okay.
• 14:17
  Rachel: If you want to build a successful, fulfilling, and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
• 14:23
  Emily: Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs.
• 14:26
  Emily: After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
• 14:31
  Rachel: Link in the show notes.
• 14:32
  Rachel: We'll see you there.
• 14:33
  Emily: Boo. Thanks.