Latest / Finding New Waters / Getting Sober at 19: Chris Love on Fun, Faith & Finding Purpose

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Getting Sober at 19: Chris Love on Fun, Faith & Finding Purpose · Finding New Waters

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  We have like that blinding light like, you know, divine
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  intervention moment where I'm just like, this can fully be my
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  reality and I can just continue down this path and keep losing
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  stuff and keep doing that, or I can kind of try something new
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  and trust, you know, trust the process that these guys are
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  telling me. But high school was the toughest
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  years. But I think that once I got
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  connected and I found people that understood that were my age
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  that were like, dude, you, you're selling yourself short.
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  Like, you know, you have so much fun at 19 getting sober.
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  You just have to be open to the possibility of it.
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  Welcome back everybody to another edition of Finding New
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  Waters. My name is Bea Reeves.
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  I'm the Director of Business Development at New Waters
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  Recovery, sitting here with our CEO, Justin McClendon and our
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  special guest today who is in Charlotte at HQ Psych, our buddy
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  Chris Love. Welcome, Chris.
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  Thanks for having me, B Thanks, guys.
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  Thanks for the podcast. Yeah.
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  Well, thank you. Yeah.
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  And thank you for accommodating us after my scheduling snafu.
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  Believe it or not, that's actually the first time that
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  that's happened. But here we are.
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  Yeah, man, we'll, you know, we've got to know each other
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  sort of through some work together.
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  And you've been to New Waters and had dinner with us.
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  And I know you and Doctor Hong are buddies and learned recently
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  that you've worked with some, you know, mutual friends of
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  mine. And.
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  But just, you know, start off by telling us kind of just what
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  exactly what all do you do? Yeah, man.
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  So at the, at the core of it, I'm a substance use counselor.
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  But I like to say that like we do a lot more than that over
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  here at Healthquest. And kind of like just being a
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  person in the community, being a therapist and provider in the
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  community, I've had the opportunity to like connect with
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  so many people and kind of build the bridges to, I feel like
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  places that aren't being really connected or underserved.
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  So at Healthquest, you know, my role as a substance use
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  counselor, but also do tons of stuff with groups and in the
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  community as well. So it's kind of like a, it's got
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  a story behind it, right? Like I think like jumping into
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  it into the profession, like it's, it's too easy to say that.
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  Oh, I'm like just a therapist. I love working with people.
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  Like it dates back to like getting in the field right after
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  high school and getting my, getting my feet wet in the
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  community. But at the core of it, like
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  Healthquest, what we like to do is like we like to connect
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  people with something. So whether they come in here and
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  see like all of the, the geek culture, right?
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  They see the Dungeons and Dragons, they see all the
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  comics, the video games upfront and all that stuff.
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  You know, we use that culture to connect with people.
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  And we find it that when people do come here, they're able to
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  find something to connect, have passion with.
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  And that's how we like to treat people is to kind of build that
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  connection and then and then take it from there.
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  Well, you just kind of glossed over the Dungeons and Dragons in
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  the background. So, you know, for you've
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  mentioned it to me, but please, I mean, you got to tell us how
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  does Dungeons and Dragons? How does that come into play
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  with therapy? Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm all about
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  experiential therapy, man. And like when I do groups, I
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  being in the ADD ADHD or myself, you know, I love to be able to
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  like move and use that as like an impactful way to change
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  people's lives. But DND is a new like applied
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  therapy that is new to me, right?
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  Like when I came to Health Quest, like the the founder,
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  doctor Canal and Doctor Kelly, they kind of brought this on to
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  me where they created something called Geek Therapeutics.
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  But DND is basically like a goal playing game where it's like,
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  you know, you're creating mythological creatures and
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  you're going into realms together where you know, it's
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  all fantasy. But we use it and we find that
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  it's very therapeutic when you're working through problems
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  through your character. So you watch your character go
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  through the situation. There's a lot of chance risk, a
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  lot of creativity and a lot of ways to like connect with
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  someone through their character and kind of learn to see where
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  they where they need support through their character.
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  But a lot of people like that and you know, a lot of DND just
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  kind of exploded within the past couple of years after Stranger
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  Things. And so we've gotten a lot of
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  traffic of people come in and wanting to do our therapeutic
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  tabletop games with us. And that's just like one part of
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  it that I'm just now learning as well.
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  But that's like the innovative part of our practice is the all
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  the different applied therapies we do.
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  And Chris, do you, was it typically a younger demographic
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  or do you see kind of all ages there at your practice?
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  Yeah, we see definitely all ages like we have someone here is
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  we're a small group of providers, but we're able to
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  see, we're able to get connect to someone with somebody.
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  I would say like my, my prime demographic is like then 14 to
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  25, that adolescent population as well as just like college
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  kids, I connect really well with I, I connect with a lot of
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  people that I find like that's like the, that's the demographic
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  that really connects with me that I find that I usually find,
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  you know, creating groups for individuals 16 to 25 just
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  because I I work with so many of them that I'm like, we need to,
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  we need to connect y'all, We need to, we need to get in a
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  space together. So definitely like 16 to 25.
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  Very cool. And Chris, one thing that I
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  remembered before the before we started the recording is that
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  last time you and I interacted, you were, you were talking to me
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  about how you were using virtual reality in your practice.
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  And, and correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe in more of a
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  way of like using it for desensitization purposes.
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  If you're open to it, I'd love to hear more about like, you
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  know, the kind of science behind that and, and how, how you found
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  that to be effective in your, your work.
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  Yeah, like there's, there's a lot of data coming out that
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  using VR virtual reality helmets and headsets are able to like
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  put someone into a situation, a controlled situation.
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  But it's basically exposure therapy where we use a lot of
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  the VR equipment here to help people with exposure fears,
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  phobias from everything from public speaking simulators to
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  flying simulators to elevators, You know, like it all correlates
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  because we're able to, you know, your senses, you know, the
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  sensory side of it is like all picking up the fact that you're
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  on top of the building 5000 feet above the ground, but you're
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  having a real physiological response.
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  Like your, your heart rate shoots up, you kind of get some
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  norepinephrine and you're kind of pumping, you know, your
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  autonomic nervous systems going crazy trying to protect yourself
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  when you're actually like in a therapy office and you're
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  actually in a really safe space. And our brain likes to trick us
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  in different ways like that. And so we see that if we can
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  help people in that environment, they're able to apply it out in
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  the real world. When they're stressed out,
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  they're anxious, they need to activate their sympathetic
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  nervous system. That's the best way to do it.
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  And we're seeing that it actually correlates to some of
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  the people who are able to calm themselves down when they're
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  virtually on top of the building that they can apply it, you
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  know, in their public speaking class in school.
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  That's pretty cool. Interesting.
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  Yeah. I even think about.
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  I'm imagining that I have a pretty, you know, disclosure.
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  I have a pretty significant fear of heights.
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  Me too. Do you really?
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  I think that's like the most common, like phobia, is it not,
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  Chris? It's one of the top three.
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  We got to get you down here, man.
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  We got to get that helmet on you.
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  I actually. Was just thinking about.
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  It yeah, I would love to do that because I mean, I could stand on
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  like the roof of my house and be freaking out, you know what I
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  mean? And I love hiking, so, you know,
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  I find myself in the mountains and like, I love it but can't go
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  too close to the edge kind of thing.
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  So I'd be really interested to actually check some of that out.
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  I would too. I, you know, one time when I
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  was, this is probably 20 years ago, I was in, in Toronto at the
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  CN Tower, which at the time I think was the tallest structure
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  in North America. And they have a, at this in the
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  rotating Spire thing at the top, they have a restaurant and they
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  have a glass floor and they're all these kids running all over,
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  running all over it. And I, and I just, I was, I
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  know, I mean, I, you know, I was like 30 at the time, so I knew I
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  was afraid of heights by then, but I, I wanted to still just
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  get on. I wanted to step on this glass
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  floor and I could not do it. My body would not let me do it.
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  The only way I could get on top of it was to sit down and scoot
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  backwards. Oh, wow.
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  And So what do you do if somebody, yeah, they do the
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  simulator and you and, and how do you, how does 1 overcome it?
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  Other than the, the therapy itself?
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  I mean, what what techniques do you use to help people overcome
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  it? Yeah, yeah.
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  I mean, that's a great example of kind of just like inching
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  your way out there and being able to get exposed to the fear
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  and then conquering it. But usually in that space that
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  it's the fear of not having or maintaining control.
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  Like the like the we go to worst case scenario where we start
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  kind of, you know, our body tells us that, you know, we're
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  basically in danger. It's sending all of these
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  messages that, hey, you know, you're better get away from that
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  threat basically. And the easiest one that I can
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  say too, is just to like find the things that you do have
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  consult over, right? Whether it's your breath, you
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  know, kind of move, move, move a muscle, change of thought or
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  even just kind of like thinking of like what I am.
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  OK, I am in a therapy office, right?
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  Like I'm not on top of the building.
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  Now in your face, you're actually on top of the building.
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  So that would you would have to apply like where's where's my
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  circle of control here? Like, what are the things that I
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  can actually take care of? I'm thinking about how freaked
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  out I am. I'm thinking of my heart rate.
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  You know, I'm looking all these kids running around and all of
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  the possibilities. But yeah, it's just it's amazing
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  what you can actually control in those situations.
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  And that's kind of what we try to teach people is like in those
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  moments, Like, you can conquer it, but you kind of have to
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  overcome, you know, a system that's been in place to keep you
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  protected for so long. And that's the whole deal with
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  anxiety is like the loss of control factor.
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  It makes sense, yeah. Even just listening to you
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  explain like, you know, the visceral reaction of, you know,
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  a client when they're getting on that I could literally feel my
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  own body kind of tensing up and I'm like, yeah, IA 100% could.
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  Imagine if I put on some VR goggles and was standing on the
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  edge of a Cliff or something like that, I would.
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  I'd probably be freaking out too, you know?
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  Chris, when I first met you, I wanted to backtrack just a
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  second because I meant to ask you this at the beginning, when
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  the first time I met you, you were still part of it.
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  You may, I think you're still involved, but with the Emerald
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  School of Excellence, which was a is a recovery high school in
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  Charlotte. And I wanted to make sure we did
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  talk about that because that's an incredible thing.
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  And we have one, we have one in Raleigh now Wake Monarch that
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  came and kind of, you know, I'm sure you know, based on your
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  model to some degree. So will you talk about that for
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  a second? Yeah, I mean that that school
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  means so much to me because it was, it was like a project that
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  if I knew at the time what it was going to be today, like,
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  man, I would have sold myself short because it was a it's
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  actually an interesting story because I actually had to speak
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  at this one healthcare event in front of like 5-6 hundred
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  people. It was crazy talk about like
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  public speaking fear. I was really freaking out after
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  the event was done. There's this lady in the crowd
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  who came up to me when she was like, you did such a great job.
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  Thanks for sharing your story. I don't know if you Remember Me,
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  but I was your EE coach in middle school.
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  And that was big for me because like, that's a huge part of my
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  story. And my recovery was struggling
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  in school, staying sober and working on my mental health.
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  So when she came up with this idea that like she wants it, she
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  wanted to start a recovery high school.
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  And she was like, I need your help to do it.
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  If you would like to maybe come to an interest meeting sometime.
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  So I was, I was working at an outpatient service.
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  I was working at an outpatient during this time, but me and her
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  kind of met up every single week to work, work on building this
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  idea of the North Carolina's first recovery high school.
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  It was just a dream and just like, you know, kind of getting
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  people invested involved in it in the community.
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  And then we ended up raising enough money to actually start
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  this high school, this recovery high school in Charlotte.
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  And I don't know if you guys could do this, but it was like
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  me, the principal and two students, that was it.
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  Imagine being you and one other guy at a school and your parents
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  are being like all right, trust me on this one.
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  Because I go to the school. Trust me.
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  And it was the wildest experience because, like, I
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  watched these kids, you know, really run with it and like
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  thrive in their recovery. Word got out, started growing,
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  starting, getting bigger. And it's such a huge part of my
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  story because it was like, I would go to all these different
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  events, kind of like preaching about this place because I know
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  I just really needed it when I was in high school.
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  And I know how important it was to bridge that gap between
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  education and recovery. So that was in 2019.
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  And so, you know, Fast forward a couple years now they're, you
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  know, we were graduating kids had, you know, had a freshman
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  through senior class and I still work with them a good bit.
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  But that was definitely a jumping off point to say like
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  this really lit a fire under me to like be a part of the
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  community or make a change, I guess like in in my community.
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  It's awesome. Yeah.
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  I mean you. I'm sure I would have benefited
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  from this myself, that it. But it did not exist.
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  Then. But I probably would have found
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  a way to get kicked out of that high school too.
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  So, but anyway, thank you for explaining that.
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  I, I didn't mean to get us off track.
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  So, but I, you know, I'm, I have so much respect for you for that
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  and for everybody involved with Emerald as well as Wake Monarch.
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  It's it's amazing. So you know, you kind of alluded
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  to your own struggles in high school and your own recovery.
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  I mean, kind of can you tell us sort of how you ended up in the
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  line of work you're in with it? You don't have to get too
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  specific, but you know how did it?
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  What happened? That's all I know how to do,
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  man, is just like, say how it is.
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  And like, I, you know, I just, I think like just being like a
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  newly sober guy out of high school.
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  Like part of my story is like, you know, entering recovery at a
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  really young age, like in high school.
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  And so being in high school, like, you know, I have this fire
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  under me basically to want to be in the field.
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  I had a life coach at the time that was like, hey, you know,
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  this is what you're good at. I feel like you should lean into
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  it. But yeah, basically in high
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  school, it was difficult to balance like, you know, mental
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  health and this, the structure of public school.
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  And so after getting through school, you know, it was
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  something where I had this, you know, kind of lit the fire to
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  like, work in the field, work with other people.
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  And I didn't really know what my like my niche was going to be or
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  what genre of the field I wanted it to be.
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  I just knew I wanted to help people because I had that, you
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  know, that nearly sober fire that a lot of people get were
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  like, oh man, I'm ready to sponsor everybody.
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  And so I had that right off, you know, right out of senior,
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  senior in high school. And so I started like
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  outreaching in the community. My, my life coach at the time
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  was like, Hey, you should jump in the field, go back to school,
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  start an internship. And so I did.
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  And so through that process, I, I started to like kind of narrow
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  down what I wanted to do and kind of the population I wanted
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  to work with. And I'm at a spot now where I
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  feel like I'm where I need to be.
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  I'm, I'm in the center of doing what I love, what I'm good at
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  and what the world needs. And it took a while to get
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  there. Took a while to get there.
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  That's an amazing place to be. Yeah.
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  And you said, you know, again, kind of glossed over something
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  else. Got sober in high school.
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  You know, we don't hear that every day.
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  How? How in the hell did that happen?
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  Oh, man, yeah. I mean, it's, I mean, we all
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  like kind of like know like the progression of this disease.
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  But like, I guess it was something where like freshen
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  through senior year of high school, you know, like just
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  battling mental health, trying to stay sober.
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  It was all about connection. Like I felt very alone.
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  I think it just ramped up because the people that are
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  connecting with were obviously not good influences.
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  But it kind of got to the point where I couldn't continue going
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  down this path because I was already starting to see real
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  life consequences and in and out of hospitals and rehabs at that
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  age. You know, we have like that
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  blinding light, like, you know, divine intervention moment where
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  I'm just like, this can fully be my reality and I can just
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  continue down this path and keep losing stuff and keep doing
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  that. Or I can kind of try something
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  new and trust, you know, trust the process that these guys are
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  telling me. But high school was the toughest
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  years. But I think that once I got
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  connected and I found people that understood that were my age
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  that were like, dude, you were selling yourself short.
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  Like, you know, you can have so much fun at 19 getting sober,
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  you just have to be open to the possibility of it.
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  I was so close minded because that was like my really only
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  sense of freedom was being able to use something or isolating.
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  And that was just a huge part was being able to kind of just
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  like trust the process of people who did it before me.
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  And jumping into the the field also had something to do with it
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  where it's like I feel like I'm a part of something greater than
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  myself. But it was not easy in high
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  school, man. I mean, like all the high school
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  kids that I work with and college kids I work with, you
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  know, you know, you can just walk into the bathroom and get
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  high or drunk if you want to. And it's difficult.
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  And you know, there's definitely like AI put myself in their
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  shoes of like, man, we got to get you connected to some
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  people. But the resources now are so
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  strong that, you know, we're starting to see more and more
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  people come out about their recovery and be vulnerable.
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  And so that was a huge part of it as well.
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  It was just like being open about my story and talking about
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  recovery. It's that last part that you
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  mentioned. I, I do feel, and we, you know,
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  we wind up from time to time talking about, you know, stigma
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  on here. And, and I think it's very much,
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  a very much, you know, continues to exist and creates a lot of
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  barriers for people. But it is, it is refreshing to
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  see that. I think we've made a lot of
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  progress, right? I mean, we see a lot of
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  celebrities that are open about it.
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  I think just the willingness to be open about mental health and,
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  and addiction has, has shifted a lot, especially in the recent
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  years and things like that. So it's just here and you say
• 19:44
  that Chris, you know that things are a little bit different than
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  maybe they what they were 15/20/25 years ago, right?
• 19:51
  Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely.
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  It's, I mean, there's still things that are going to be
• 19:56
  difficult, right? Like just opening up about your
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  struggle. But we're finding it that like
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  there's a little bit more resources.
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  And I think, like you said, like watching people like talk about
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  their recovery, they're like with music or in the media.
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  That's a really important thing. You know, connection is
• 20:14
  ultimately like what we try to give people when they come to
• 20:17
  the office is connecting them, whether it's like with a
• 20:20
  positive peer group or like. Verity group or self help group,
• 20:24
  whatever it is, we're kind of just getting up all side of
• 20:28
  themselves. Yeah, you've mentioned the word
• 20:31
  connection several times and I remember first when I first got
• 20:34
  sober, hearing addiction is the opposite of connection
• 20:38
  addiction. And I remember thinking really
• 20:40
  is that seems like this more scientific thing like dependence
• 20:47
  and all that. The but the longer I'm around,
• 20:48
  the more that totally makes sense.
• 20:51
  And it's totally true. I mean, what, you know, I just
• 20:53
  the disease wants us in isolation where it can tell us,
• 20:57
  you know, that everything's, you know, that we it's OK to go back
• 21:01
  to use into drinking and, you know, in our own voice in our
• 21:05
  head. And but when we stay connected
• 21:06
  and share, you know, and talk about our openly about, you
• 21:11
  know, not, you know, it's not just about the, the, the urge to
• 21:15
  use or drink, but just all the little, sometimes very seemingly
• 21:19
  silly things that get us hung up.
• 21:21
  But those little things, you know, they say we, you know, we,
• 21:24
  we trip over the pebbles and not the boulders.
• 21:27
  You know, it's these little, like the big stuff.
• 21:29
  It's like kind of hard not to talk about.
• 21:31
  They're usually so obvious anyway that they're going to
• 21:33
  come up. But it's the little things, you
• 21:35
  know, especially in my experience, I don't want to
• 21:37
  speak for anybody else. Yeah.
• 21:39
  Yeah, man, I would. I would definitely agree with
• 21:41
  that. I mean, I have like a, I
• 21:44
  definitely can relate to what you just said, especially being
• 21:46
  like a senior in high school and like being like, I'm the only
• 21:50
  guy in this entire school that's going to a, a meeting at 12 O
• 21:54
  clock on lunch break instead of instead of going to lunch,
• 21:57
  right? Or like going to hanging out.
• 21:59
  I felt very like, you know, alone.
• 22:00
  But it comes to find out like, you know, I'm not the only one.
• 22:04
  I'm not that special. So there's a lot more people and
• 22:07
  that that definitely, you know, at first glance was definitely
• 22:12
  hard to agree with. Yeah, yeah, it's very isolating.
• 22:16
  I was just going to comment on, you know, I have this little
• 22:19
  theory, right, which I don't think I'm the only one that
• 22:21
  shares it. But you know, substance use, I
• 22:26
  think a lot of people would agree that like the use of
• 22:28
  substances is a method of coping, right?
• 22:30
  So it's more of a solution than maybe a, you know, a problem per
• 22:33
  SE, But you know, when we look at other things like, you know,
• 22:37
  mental health, anxiety, depression, things like that,
• 22:40
  this, this idea for me anyways, about like connection is very
• 22:44
  much a part of all of those things, right?
• 22:45
  Is that the more that we are disconnected from our self, the
• 22:50
  individuals around us, the world around us, the more isolated
• 22:53
  that we become, the more these kind of like symptoms or problem
• 22:57
  sets tend to emerge with people, right?
• 23:00
  And not that, you know, put be a reductionist and say that like
• 23:02
  connection or healthy connection is like the, the, the solution
• 23:06
  to all problems, but it is definitely a huge part of it,
• 23:09
  right? Because the more we see that we
• 23:11
  don't have that connection, the more isolated we become, the
• 23:15
  more you see this, the discontentment and like reaching
• 23:18
  for other things to solve that problem for us.
• 23:21
  Not to, you know, steal the show, but I, I, I very much have
• 23:24
  kind of subscribed to this is like a, a core belief for for a
• 23:28
  really, really long time now. Totally.
• 23:31
  I mean, we see people who come to new waters and Chris, I'm
• 23:33
  sure you see you know when the people who have their own way of
• 23:37
  doing things and you know, I was talking to somebody the other
• 23:41
  day about this and not talk about it probably every day to
• 23:44
  somebody. But I just don't see people.
• 23:47
  I don't know anybody who is in recovery who's happy Joyce and
• 23:52
  free with some without some kind of community.
• 23:55
  Yeah, just I, I don't know anybody who is living a life,
• 23:58
  you know, being happy, Joyce, and free, not who isn't
• 24:03
  restless, irritable, discontented, you know, without
• 24:08
  some kind of, you know, community.
• 24:11
  And I mean, you know, we work in the field.
• 24:13
  That's great. But like I was warned early on,
• 24:15
  don't let this be my recovery. And thank God I've heeded that
• 24:17
  advice thus far. But then you know, whether it's,
• 24:21
  you know, the church or 12 step or whatever, but something
• 24:25
  because otherwise, because The thing is, if we don't have that
• 24:29
  community and then we still try to socialize and do all the
• 24:33
  stuff we used to do without substances, just minus the
• 24:36
  substances. I mean, I can't think of a way
• 24:39
  to be more alone than that is going to a party just with like
• 24:43
  no, no tools and just sitting there like that or at a concert
• 24:47
  or whatever. So that's why it's so important
• 24:51
  to have the community to have, you know, people to be
• 24:53
  accountable to and check in with and all that.
• 24:55
  Yeah. Yeah, man, I mean, there's like
• 24:57
  A1A big believer in like, you know, when you're in that state
• 25:02
  of like kind of like self sabotaging, we don't have
• 25:05
  empathy for your future self, right?
• 25:06
  And I think that that's something that we that's like a
• 25:09
  part of our brain that we definitely develop.
• 25:11
  We're like adolescence and adulthood.
• 25:13
  But I just look back, man, and I didn't have like those bonds
• 25:17
  that you were talking about, you know, like I definitely had it
• 25:19
  and other things before substances came into play.
• 25:22
  But I think a majority of the time now is like helping guys
• 25:27
  find those bonds in their life. Accountability.
• 25:30
  At the end of the day, it's like, what's something that, you
• 25:33
  know, I care about that holds me accountable and I'm able to like
• 25:36
  connect with my future self and have that that empathy because I
• 25:40
  couldn't really tell you, you know what?
• 25:43
  Yeah, when early years of high school or even real high school,
• 25:46
  like I didn't really see past the current age I was at.
• 25:49
  I was like, yeah, I'm just going to be 20 and then 21 probably.
• 25:55
  Yeah, don't, don't really know. Well, I mean, it's funny.
• 26:00
  I mean, I, I for a long time there, the only way I could
• 26:03
  measure any progress in my life was how, how many years I'd been
• 26:06
  alive. Didn't I mean, that sounds, you
• 26:09
  know, like I'm hyperbole, but it's true.
• 26:12
  But when? So you got sober in high school
• 26:14
  and then you know, what was your college experience like?
• 26:17
  Yeah, it was interesting, man, because I right off of high
• 26:21
  school, I was really like dedicated to work, right?
• 26:25
  Like high school is such a mess and going to so many like, you
• 26:29
  know, having to like basically like be all over the place in
• 26:32
  high school and like getting sober.
• 26:34
  I was like, I can't imagine going to any other higher
• 26:37
  education or balancing school with recovery.
• 26:39
  I couldn't imagine it. But I definitely kind of got
• 26:43
  kicked into shape when I, when I found out I was having a kid at
• 26:47
  22. So after high school, I found
• 26:51
  out I was going to be a dad. And so it kind of kicked my life
• 26:55
  into gear really quick. And I don't, I don't suggest
• 26:57
  that for the population having a kid to like kick you into gear
• 27:01
  by any means, but it definitely did for me.
• 27:04
  And it caused me like, you know, go back to this College in
• 27:07
  Charlotte, Central central Piedmont, and start looking at,
• 27:11
  you know, certain licensure to become a counselor and got the
• 27:15
  ball rolling. But that kind of ignited the
• 27:18
  flame for me. Obviously, like recovery, but I
• 27:20
  was kind of bouncing around to like, different jobs and like
• 27:23
  managing a car wash. And yeah, I went, you know, I
• 27:28
  went to car wash College in Miami.
• 27:31
  I thought that was going to be my big breakthrough moment.
• 27:35
  Turns out it wasn't. And I found out I'm better at
• 27:38
  being a therapist than washing cars.
• 27:39
  So. We I met your son the other
• 27:43
  night at dinner and I, you know, I would, I, there was, there was
• 27:48
  no way that was your son. I mean, because he's what?
• 27:50
  How old is he? He's 9.
• 27:52
  He's 9 and you look like you're 19.
• 27:55
  So I was trying to do some quick math and that, but yeah, he, we,
• 28:00
  he's got him started early in the field.
• 28:02
  That's awesome, I love that. That's amazing, man.
• 28:06
  So so it's funny too, because I, you know, I try to and Justin's
• 28:10
  probably heard me talk about this and I don't know how
• 28:12
  accurate this is just my own sort of observation that the way
• 28:16
  I see people grow up is I feel like most people kind of grow up
• 28:22
  on a somewhat even trajectory where they're pit their little,
• 28:25
  you know, bumps along the way and they're, you know,
• 28:28
  experimenting their drinking, maybe experimenting with some
• 28:30
  drugs. But they kind of just grow up.
• 28:32
  You know, they kind of get married at a quote UN quote
• 28:34
  normal time and have kids at a normal time and get a job and
• 28:37
  they're kind of responsible adults.
• 28:39
  Nothing, you know, I'm not saying anybody's perfect.
• 28:41
  And then you got people who kind of were growing up maybe going
• 28:46
  to go down a path and then they have like a life event.
• 28:49
  And I usually, I'd often cite like have a child earlier than
• 28:53
  expected or like somebody dies and they kind of have to be, you
• 28:57
  know, shocked into growing up fast.
• 29:00
  And then you got people like me who were like going down pretty
• 29:03
  fast and then got sober. And then, you know, hopefully
• 29:05
  you're on the way up, but that you kind of had both of those
• 29:08
  things happen, got sober really young and had a kid really
• 29:11
  young. Yeah, I mean, it did force me to
• 29:14
  like be around a lot of people that I think had a lot of wisdom
• 29:19
  and guidance, right? Like just whether it's in
• 29:21
  recovery or just like having to figure out a lot of life skills
• 29:26
  really quickly. That's why I like to like, focus
• 29:29
  on that. I have a men's group on Tuesday
• 29:31
  nights that we do like talk a lot about just like life skills
• 29:35
  and breaking through if you feel stuck.
• 29:37
  And yeah, definitely like having a kid was one of those things
• 29:41
  where it like kind of rocketed me into a new dimension where if
• 29:45
  I wasn't in recovery and practicing these principles and
• 29:47
  I wasn't like surrounded by these bonds of people that kind
• 29:51
  of kept me in check. Man, I feel, you know, who knows
• 29:55
  how Jack would have turned out, but he as you saw, he's a he's a
• 29:59
  little go getter. He's my marketing manager right
• 30:04
  now. So I'd be with all the events
• 30:06
  and then. He's also your Asian.
• 30:07
  He got you on this podcast. Yeah, he's very, Yeah, He's
• 30:11
  very, you know, strongly informed.
• 30:13
  Great, great. He's 9, you said.
• 30:18
  Yeah. That's awesome.
• 30:20
  Very cool. It's a fun age.
• 30:22
  I have. I have two boys, 13 and 10, so
• 30:24
  the youngest is similar age and like it's, it's, it's a blast,
• 30:27
  Is it not, Chris? Oh yeah, 100% man.
• 30:30
  I mean, he's just now getting into stuff that like I can
• 30:32
  remember being into. So I'm getting like relive a
• 30:36
  little bit of my childhood and be like getting stoked over
• 30:38
  like, you know, Pokémon Rubik's cubes and making videos on
• 30:43
  YouTube and stuff like that. So, you know, it's just like
• 30:47
  I'm, I'm able to like do stuff like that with them and that's
• 30:49
  really fun. But yeah, definitely put me in
• 30:52
  the place to have to have to ask for more help, which I'm not
• 30:57
  good at. And so it definitely makes you,
• 31:00
  it's just more things that you have to connect over, right?
• 31:03
  Like you either sink or swim in that scenario.
• 31:05
  And I can't afford to, can't afford to mess that up.
• 31:10
  Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, the population
• 31:13
  you work with in general, I mean, the practice sees
• 31:16
  everybody as we've established, but you really focus on that
• 31:20
  like adolescent to young adult, you know, and what I mean, this
• 31:25
  is the topic of a lot of conversations in books and just
• 31:30
  about kids and all the stuff that they are get.
• 31:32
  What are you seeing? And you know, because we are a
• 31:36
  lot of our listeners are people who are are parents of kids that
• 31:39
  fit your demographic. I mean, what are, what's new,
• 31:43
  what's what, what are, what are, what are these kids coming to
• 31:45
  see you for other than fear of heights and that kind of stuff
• 31:49
  we've already talked about. Yeah, I dude, that's so, so
• 31:53
  real. Because I find a lot of times
• 31:54
  they're just looking for someone to like, just to run their ideas
• 31:59
  off of, right? And just kind of get down to
• 32:02
  like, what is the, the core concept behind like what they
• 32:05
  want, right? Like what ultimately motivates
• 32:08
  them. And I find that like, I end up
• 32:11
  kind of being that person that is, you know, doing a lot of
• 32:14
  cost benefit analysis with these guys of like walking through
• 32:18
  uncomfortable situations with them.
• 32:20
  Or really they just need someone to feel like they can get
• 32:23
  vulnerable with and kind of work through some of the things that
• 32:26
  are holding him back. Yeah, there's usually some
• 32:30
  culprit or some belief system, something that's, you know, this
• 32:34
  glass ceiling keeping them from their full potential.
• 32:38
  And I just saw so much of A need of it that I wanted to start a
• 32:41
  group. And so like on Tuesday nights, I
• 32:43
  host this men's group that has really been starting to thrive
• 32:48
  in Charlotte because we've seen that when you come into a room
• 32:52
  and you're able to share that you're like, hey, I'm have this
• 32:55
  fear of failure and I'm stuck at this job and I feel like I can't
• 33:00
  go put in my resume. I can't put it together.
• 33:03
  I've got, you know, imposter syndrome.
• 33:05
  I have all these things that like are holding me to growth.
• 33:11
  Get perspective, right? And you get perspective and like
• 33:13
  real support. So I try to 1st connect with
• 33:17
  them but also like help run through a lot of things that
• 33:20
  makes them feel like they're being held back.
• 33:25
  It's awesome. Yeah, it's good stuff.
• 33:26
  Yeah. So this idea of the the what
• 33:33
  came up for me while you were talking is this idea, I think
• 33:35
  that they we throw this term around like failure to launch in
• 33:39
  our in our industry. What do you think about that,
• 33:42
  Chris? Do you think that's a thing,
• 33:44
  failure to launch? And if so, like what exactly
• 33:46
  does that mean? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a, it's
• 33:49
  a good statement. I think that it's like, you
• 33:53
  know, I, I'm really, I'm really weary of like telling someone
• 33:58
  that their failure to launch, obviously like that's something
• 34:00
  that's you know. And demeaning, right?
• 34:03
  Yeah, it's a little demeaning, but it's not the case sometimes.
• 34:05
  Like if you really boil it down, there's like a fear associated
• 34:08
  with something. There's some form of like, you
• 34:11
  know, there's some, there's some cognitive distortion going on
• 34:16
  that makes them feel like they're stuck, right?
• 34:18
  Or there's something that's holding them back.
• 34:20
  There's something that they're connected with that is not
• 34:24
  working in their life, right? So I don't put it as like, hey,
• 34:27
  this is just like a moral failure or like there's
• 34:30
  something wrong with them, right?
• 34:31
  Where they're just this failure to launch bird that can't fly.
• 34:34
  It's kind of one of those things where we have to be very
• 34:38
  creative and say, how can we go through the side door if you
• 34:41
  feel stuck, rather than breaking through this door you keep
• 34:44
  running into. And a lot of parents see that at
• 34:47
  home where there's this peak neuroplasticity with young
• 34:51
  adults and teenagers. But the parental hope for change
• 34:55
  is really low because they've been in the battle working with
• 34:57
  them for so long. They're like, man, I'm so burnt
• 35:00
  out from trying to help him, you know, get a job and balance all
• 35:03
  these things. And that's the peak
• 35:06
  neuroplasticity. That's where we really need to
• 35:08
  start saying like, hey, ma'am, like, trust the process.
• 35:10
  Let's find out new methodologies that can work for you and
• 35:14
  workshop some of these things in a safe setting.
• 35:18
  So that's that's when I see failure to launch.
• 35:21
  I kind of just see like we just got to get creative.
• 35:24
  Yeah, that's a great point to what you just said about the the
• 35:28
  parent, the parent piece. Because so often by the time we
• 35:32
  get somebody calling us and we're talking to A to the family
• 35:36
  member, especially for, you know, we're talking about the
• 35:38
  parents of a young adult who, you know, may or may not have a
• 35:41
  failure to launch situation. And it's easy for us to think,
• 35:44
  oh, this, this family, they're just enablers.
• 35:47
  And, you know, they got no boundaries.
• 35:49
  But what we don't know, even if they tell us like kind of like
• 35:52
  you just said, we don't know how much they have been trying and
• 35:56
  been beaten down day by day by trying to help this kid and
• 36:00
  maybe not doing it the right way.
• 36:02
  But kind of obviously they haven't given up because we're
• 36:05
  talking to them. But they're, you know, they just
• 36:07
  they're human too. They can't can't expect them to
• 36:09
  just magically have all these the answers and know what
• 36:13
  boundaries to set and more importantly, keep and being
• 36:16
  about the and it could look like enabling and you know, and it
• 36:19
  kind of is, but it's also we sometimes don't look at that
• 36:22
  perspective from like all the things they've tried and hasn't
• 36:25
  haven't worked and all that. So I'm glad you brought that up.
• 36:29
  Yeah, I mean, that goes for like ADHD too.
• 36:32
  Like I see a lot of that where, you know, I was told I'm so
• 36:35
  capable my whole life. Like being in high school while
• 36:38
  he's so creative, you know, he's, you know, it was on.
• 36:42
  I think I was like president of my middle school for a little
• 36:46
  bit, played first chair in concert band.
• 36:48
  It was like all creative. And then when mental health took
• 36:50
  over, I kept hearing this message that like, but he's so
• 36:54
  capable and he's so he's so capable.
• 36:56
  He just doesn't apply himself, right.
• 36:59
  And that was always tough to hear.
• 37:00
  I'm like, well, that makes me feel like I'm like a Ferrari
• 37:03
  with a Honda Civic engine, you know, like, I don't.
• 37:08
  But it's not even. Yeah.
• 37:09
  It's not even an issue of like moral values.
• 37:12
  It's just, you know, there's executive functioning stuff
• 37:15
  going on that is teachable, right?
• 37:18
  And it's all in its environment. It's there's so much that goes
• 37:21
  into meeting and where they're at that I'm very careful with
• 37:24
  saying things like failure to launch or you know, we just got
• 37:29
  to, it's all about the language sometimes.
• 37:31
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 37:32
  And I think, you know, to give credit where credit's due, this
• 37:35
  life, this thing that we do is, is pretty difficult.
• 37:38
  You know, there's a lot of stuff that you have to figure out,
• 37:41
  right. So, you know, again, to give
• 37:43
  credit to the youngsters and even, you know, the day and age
• 37:46
  and the technology and everything else that we're
• 37:48
  dealing with, man, it's a it's a lot to ask of, you know, a
• 37:53
  teenager or a middle schooler or something like that, to be able
• 37:56
  to figure out some of this stuff or to be able to walk through
• 37:58
  some of these fears that they're presented with socially,
• 38:01
  academically, all of that stuff. So it's it's big, right.
• 38:06
  So I guess it's no surprise that individuals are going to
• 38:09
  struggle with that, right as you were just talking about.
• 38:14
  Yeah, I wondered to bring the VR thing back up.
• 38:16
  Is there any kind of VR programs that you can use to actually put
• 38:20
  people in not on not just environmental but social type
• 38:23
  situations, or is there anything emerging like that?
• 38:27
  Yeah, there there's a lot and like, like the way that I use it
• 38:31
  is I've, I've used it a couple different ways for definitely
• 38:34
  like public speaking. That's like a big band
• 38:37
  everywhere. You know, the kid is having a
• 38:39
  difficult time in class or they might have like performance
• 38:42
  anxiety or like an athlete who, you know, doesn't like being
• 38:47
  observed. And that's that's pretty easy.
• 38:51
  But there's tons of of new even like just like fun games on the
• 38:55
  VR headset that is so innovative.
• 38:58
  It helps people with like they're interpreting social
• 39:02
  situations, being able to, you know, observe other people
• 39:06
  observing them and all types of different scenarios.
• 39:10
  So it's it's kind of made it so you're able to apply it in real
• 39:15
  life. But I think that that's where
• 39:16
  like we come in is helping them apply it because I definitely
• 39:19
  also know with gaming, it can flip on the other side where
• 39:24
  they're too much in the game or they're too much, there's too
• 39:27
  much isolation. So as a result, they don't build
• 39:30
  that life skill and getting outside of themselves.
• 39:32
  So we like to, you know, we have a lot of video games up front in
• 39:35
  the front office. We've got, you know, a couple
• 39:37
  switches and Xboxes for in the waiting room.
• 39:40
  But we ultimately want, like, people to associate, you know,
• 39:43
  stuff like that with, you know, health and being able to control
• 39:48
  and balance and, you know, hopping in a game with them and
• 39:52
  helping them feel like, hey, we're meeting you in your space
• 39:55
  now. Like, meet me in our space.
• 39:57
  And let's keep, you know, progressing.
• 39:59
  So it definitely can flip. But I've seen one is just one
• 40:06
  public speaking for me. That's cool, I love that B and I
• 40:11
  will have to book some sessions and come see.
• 40:15
  Me. Every time I hear about the fear
• 40:17
  of public speaking, I just think about.
• 40:19
  I learned, of course, like everything from Seinfeld, that
• 40:23
  people's number one fear is public speaking.
• 40:27
  Death is number 2. Well, this has been amazing,
• 40:31
  man. And how do we, how do we find
• 40:34
  you? Yeah, so my, my Instagrams love
• 40:37
  recovery counseling and you know, obviously HQ psych.com,
• 40:42
  Health Quest Innovative Therapeutics is, is my office,
• 40:47
  is my group practice in Charlotte, NC.
• 40:50
  So very accessible on all of the websites in Psychology Today.
• 40:54
  You can find me. But yeah, man, I really
• 40:57
  appreciate you guys having me on.
• 40:59
  This is really something I when I, I love to, I love it, but I
• 41:02
  hate it. This is exposure therapy for me.
• 41:05
  There we go. I hear you.
• 41:06
  This is, you know, this is public speaking.
• 41:09
  You just don't know it yet. Yeah, the audience.
• 41:11
  The audience is invisible. It's off.
• 41:13
  Thank you. Yeah, Chris, it's it's been
• 41:14
  great, man. We appreciate you coming to hang
• 41:15
  out with us. Yeah, man, I really appreciate
• 41:17
  it. It's great to see you the other
• 41:18
  day. I look forward to seeing you
• 41:19
  very soon. Thank you.
• 41:21
  If you liked what you heard today or just want to know more,
• 41:23
  give us a call on 9196708119 or visit us at
• 41:29
  newwatersrecovery.com. Thank you.