Latest / RESHAPED / Episode 6: Tim Butler | God Just Wanted His Kid to Come Home

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Episode 6: Tim Butler | God Just Wanted His Kid to Come Home · RESHAPED

• Aaron: Hello everyone and welcome back to Reshaped. today we've got a special guest episode for you guys. I speak with a really good friend named Tim Butler. he is part of the same church, community as I'm a part of. He's been a Christian here in this church community for over thirty years. He's been in Christian for over thirty years, and so we get to talking about his upbringing. he was adopted, and so he talks about that and kind of what that was like and also his journey to becoming a Christian. Of course. we also talk about his time away that he spent from God after becoming a Christian and also his journey back to God. And of course being in the church for a long time. we get to talking about his perspective on our church community, and the changes and the reshapings that he's seen over the years. talk about the good stuff that he's seen changed and reshaped, but also some of the stuff that maybe we have to be wary of. and it was a really, really cool conversation. I do want to just add that a little disclaimer here that in this conversation there is some mention of some serious mental health struggles that Tim goes through, alcoholism stuff as well, and some of the ideations that it led to. So that's about the twenty nine minute mark. It's very, very short, very quick. But if you want to skip over that, then of course please do so accordingly. but it is part of your story, and so I I I definitely am gonna leave that in there. but ultimately just a really great conversation. Really appreciate his time and his friendship. and so without further ado, hope you guys enjoy this conversation. hello and welcome back to the Reshaped Podcast. you're here with Aaron, and this is the place where we are seeking to bring Christian formation through thoughtful examination and conversation. dnfh79c6y5: Thank you. Aaron: We're just trying to be more like Christ every day. And that happens as we think through things biblically and as we have conversation with people that we agree with, people we don't agree with, people in our communities and all of that, so that we can reexamine our own convictions. And today I'm really excited we're gonna be having a conversation with a really good friend. So I'm gonna do a little intro again. This guy, yeah, he's a he's a longtime Christian. He's been a part of our family of churches and our church community for for a while. And he's someone I've known for a long time, and I'm sure we'll get into that. from when I was a little kid up till now. now I'm not too sure about all his family situations, so I'm excited to maybe you know learn a bit more about that in his story. but yeah, he's he's also a the founder and owner of Wyndham TV, which is a local community media platform covering stories and events in in the in that suburb, in that community. dnfh79c6y5: you. Aaron: and he's done a great job with that and I'm really excited to be able to learn from him and just his his wisdom, his his faith, and just to hear the stories I've got 'cause I'm sure he has some. So without further ado, please welcome my brother, Tim Butler. Tim How you doing, bro? Did you like that? Did you like that? Did you like that? Yeah, that's pretty good. Awesome. How you doing? How you doing? dnfh79c6y5: Great intro there Aaron. Hey everybody. That was good. That was really good. Yeah, very impressive. It's like, yeah, I'm doing well. I'm doing well. We are glad to be here. Glad to be Aaron: Thank you. dnfh79c6y5: a part of this. Aaron: Yes, I'm really excited. Yeah, you're definitely one of the first people that I thought of when I like, I'm doing this project. I gotta get Tim on because yeah, he's got a lot of different experiences. He's been around for a bit. and it'd be great to just be able to have a chat. But I thought we could remin I like reminiscing with the with my guests, like just to kinda go back to some some maybe core memories or some things dnfh79c6y5: Hahaha Aaron: that you think about. I'll I've got one, that I you're probably thinking of the same thing. It wasn't when we were it wasn't when we were when I was young. But firstly, how long Do you think you've known me for? Like just at least known as in known of me. I'm I'm thirty two. dnfh79c6y5: How old are you now? Yeah, so probably since you were about two. Aaron: No gosh. Alright, that's a that's a long time. That's a long time. okay, let's okay, the one I'm thinking about, one of the I think my biggest memories with you, I know there's a lot growing up with, you know, some of you know the other kids in the church and you would help, you know, 'cause you're into film and you do all those kinds of things. I remember a lot of that. But one of the big ones that I remember was back in twenty fourteen when you and dnfh79c6y5: Wow. Aaron: I met in New York, Manhattan. You f you forgot about that my see dnfh79c6y5: that's right, I forgot about that. I forgot about that. Aaron: How did you forget about that? That's like one of the most epic trips and random things that ever happened. I was trying to think about how did that all come about? Do you remember how it all kind of came about? We didn't plan it. I think you were there. I dnfh79c6y5: I do- Aaron: was there for a conference in in LA for a dnfh79c6y5: Mm. Aaron: a conference with our church. and then I went to to New York to visit my auntie. And then I think somehow you knew I was there. I don't remember. Do you remember how that all went down? dnfh79c6y5: No, no, I do not remember. But yeah, it was great. It was great. I remember we were down near the Hudson River and Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: I was doing a video and I got you to dance on the camera Aaron: That dnfh79c6y5: for me. Do remember that? Yeah, yeah. So Aaron: I don't remember that part. I'm but dnfh79c6y5: it ended up in a, in a probably a two minute video that I did of my trip to New York. So Aaron: Okay. dnfh79c6y5: I put a couple of songs in there. Aaron: Yeah, yep. dnfh79c6y5: about New York and then it cuts to all these different scenes and there's one of you in there dancing down near the Hudson River. I've got it somewhere here I can send it to you. Aaron: And I was in it. man, where is that? Where's that video? Is that on Facebook or something? we'd have to have a look at it. Yeah, we'd have to have a look at it. Wha were you there just for holiday that that time? Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: Yes, yeah, well, what year was it again? 2014. Aaron: Twenty fourteen. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, I'd just been made redundant from my job in the bank and I decided to go overseas for three months. So I stayed in New Jersey, traveling to New York, connecting Aaron: yeah. dnfh79c6y5: with the church there. And then I spent about a month and a half there and then a month and a half down in Chile as well. Aaron: that's good. chili would been fun. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, so I lived in Chile for a while. So, yeah, Aaron: cool. How's that? dnfh79c6y5: it was great. It was great. So yeah, I speak Spanish and I like to go back there and connect with the church over there and relatively, relatively fluent. Yeah, Aaron: Wait wait wait wait wait you speak fluent Spanish? That's that's cra how did I not know this? What? dnfh79c6y5: people say I've got a Chilean accent when they hear me. Aaron: that's crazy. That's awesome. Did you learn that from just from being there or did you do a bit of like Duolingo or something like that and then dnfh79c6y5: Mainly, just Duolingo wasn't around 30 years ago. Aaron: Okay. dnfh79c6y5: I had to do it the old-fashioned way, mate, actually speak to people. Aaron: no, we gotta get your age. We're gonna get your age in a second. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: I had to speak to people. But Aaron: no, what's that like? That's crazy. dnfh79c6y5: no, I loved it and I just wanted to learn more. know, soaking myself up in the culture there and having Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: to speak Spanish was, yeah, great. And it's very important for me and I often... I tried to go back a few times, which I did, and I hadn't been for 11 years and then I went back last year for... Yeah, yeah, it's Aaron: great. Were you was your Spanish okay? Yeah, it was all good. dnfh79c6y5: amazing. I started to think in Spanish and I trained myself to think in Spanish while I was there. Aaron: It's amazing. dnfh79c6y5: And I think that's really helped to just cement it in. So I haven't forgotten. I watch Chilean soap operas at the moment just to keep up with the language. Aaron: wow. So you're at the point yeah, you're at the point, like would you say you're fluent? dnfh79c6y5: I'd say about 80%. Aaron: That's th that's more than yeah, so you can like dnfh79c6y5: Yeah. Aaron: yeah, you're not thinking too much about it when you're having like you can just it just comes yeah, that's that's so cool. So do you believe in dnfh79c6y5: No, that's right, that's right. Aaron: the cause you know, people always say if you want to learn a language, you should immerse yourself fully in the culture. That's better than any class, any, you know, app that you could ever have. Mm. Mm. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, you have to be speaking it. Yeah, you have to be confronted with it day to day and having to learn, do you know what I mean? Well, that was for me anyway, for me. Aaron: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think so, 'cause I I mean I'm Filipino, so I I I but I don't speak fluent Tagalog. I understand more than I speak, but every time I go to the Philippines, I do feel like very quickly, like very quickly that I understand much more, really quickly. And I start speaking, it just kind of even from being there just a few days, it just it comes dnfh79c6y5: Yeah. Aaron: comes and yeah. Yeah, I wish I wish I Kind of was more fluent with all that, but anyway, it it is what it is what it is. It is what it is. Now that's cool. dnfh79c6y5: that's it, that's it. Aaron: That's really, really cool. great. Well yeah, that that was an amazing time. I the the story. We have to tell the story about the jacket. Do you want to tell that story? The jacket, the leather jacket. Do you remember that story? Or do I need to tell it? dnfh79c6y5: jacket. Is that the one where we got it for a discount? Is that the one we're talking about? Aaron: Not just a d yeah, a heavy, heavy discount. Was it Macy's? I think we were in the Macy's. Yeah. Do you remember that? Do you remember what happened? dnfh79c6y5: Macy's, it was Macy's, yeah, yeah. don't remember exactly what happened. There was something about a deal, like was a very good price, I know that, but. Aaron: Yeah. So from memory, we were in there, you're doing we'll do a bit of shopping and and we'll just have dnfh79c6y5: Yes. Aaron: a look at some stuff. And then you saw this beautiful leather jacket. Do you still have it by the way? dnfh79c6y5: I do. Aaron: Yeah, this beautiful leather jacket and it was on a discount rack. Right? It was on discount rack and I don't dnfh79c6y5: Yes. Aaron: remember the price. It might have been like twenty USD. Fit tw It was really, dnfh79c6y5: Yeah. Aaron: really 'cause you saw it and you said, What? Look at this and then you looked at the price tag and it had the actual price which was dnfh79c6y5: Yeah. Aaron: Very expensive. I think it was over like a hundred USD or something like that from memory. And then yeah, and then you dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, probably more. Aaron: you went and queried with one of the workers and you said, hey, this was on the discount rack. just here, can you check it says this price? I just want to pay the right price. And then they went and checked it and they were like, yeah, that that shouldn't be right. And they've gone back to check it and gone to and then they I think that's talking to the manager or they're talking to something, da da da da da. And I remember we're waiting for a while and then they came back and said, Yeah, look Like our policy is we actually have to give it to you for the discounted price and then you got it for dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Aaron: the dnfh79c6y5: Sold! Aaron: And that was like the biggest win I could I'll never forget that was and then from that point on, I'm always looking at discounts. Discount reaction like Yeah, I don't know if it's dnfh79c6y5: Is that right? Yeah, okay. Aaron: the same here in Australia, but when I when I I was like just in case, let me check. what's it But they're always dnfh79c6y5: hahahahah Aaron: a di it's always a discounted cheap stuff, so that was that was crazy. That was that was yeah. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, that was amazing. Yeah, we'll have to have to try and work out how we why we were both there at the same time. Like how did that happen? You know, Aaron: I yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I you I I think I don't remember who contacted who. It it must have dnfh79c6y5: Yeah. Aaron: been yeah, 'cause we didn't plan it and it just happened. So anyway. But hey, dnfh79c6y5: No, that's right. Aaron: we were there and then we have memories and now we're on a podcast. So this is this is fun. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, that's it. That's it. Aaron: It's funny 'cause it I think we were joking 'cause, you know, we never really hung out or hang out in Melbourne 'cause you you live in different places, I live in different places and different ministries and all of that. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, different circles, the whole thing. Aaron: Yeah, different circles. But then we we spend a whole day together in New York. It's like, yeah, just dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, yeah. Aaron: just go overseas to hang out. That's what we should do. That should be our thing. Nah, dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. It was good. Aaron: it's good time. Great time. well Timber, let's love let's get a little bit into your story if you're if you're good at chat about that. So maybe just dnfh79c6y5: Sure. Aaron: just to get some context, tell us a little bit about yourself, a bit growing up, your journey to Christ, and yeah, feel free to dnfh79c6y5: Mmm. Aaron: go into as much or as little detail as you like and I'll Ask some questions along the way and we'll get into talking about some some other stuff afterwards too. So all right, here we go. I'm gonna put myself on mute. I'm gonna put myself on mute and I was listen. Now go go ahead. Very keen, very eager. dnfh79c6y5: Wow. Yeah, strap yourselves in everybody. What can I say? Well, I suppose I was born and raised in Tasmania. I don't suppose that I actually know that I was born and raised in Tasmania. Aaron: Which which for people that don't know, it's like the little island at the very bottom of Australia. That yeah, yeah. Hobart is the capital city. dnfh79c6y5: Correct, yeah. If you're overseas, most people know the Tasmanian Devil on the Looney Tunes cartoons, you know what I mean? Yeah, that's where he's from. Aaron: Mm Taz. Yep, that's it. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, so that probably gives you a bit of an insight into my character as well. But yeah, Aaron: It's probably true. dnfh79c6y5: small country town. It was a mining town called Queenstown on the west coast of Tasmania. And it was... I'd say it's a rough place, really. The West Coast was known as being rough. It's a mining town. A lot of guys are there working in the mines, doing heavy duty stuff. And there was a big drinking culture there as well. So there's a lot of pubs. think in a town of about four and a half thousand, we had seven pubs. Yeah. And that's what Aaron: wow. Yep. A lot of drinking. dnfh79c6y5: a lot of people drank. And it was about having a fancy car and all that sort of stuff. grew up in a household with, there was mum and dad and I had two, well I had two brothers and one sister. I was adopted into that family from a baby. I don't know if you knew that Aaron? No? Okay. Yeah, Aaron: Okay. I didn't know that. No, I I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Wow. dnfh79c6y5: yeah mum and dad, they adopted me and then we adopted my brother and he, I actually went and picked him out for the adoption. Aaron: yeah, yeah, yeah. dnfh79c6y5: That's what they told me. I don't remember doing it, but that's what they said to me. I must have just pointed and said that one. Aaron: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: And then they had two children of their own. So they had a girl and a boy. So we all grew up together in that household. like Aaron: Hm. How old are you sorry, Tim, when you were adopted? How old dnfh79c6y5: I was months, maybe a couple of months old. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Aaron: okay. Yeah. Yeah okay. Yeah, Esther yeah, I think you probably know that but Esther she was adopted at six months as well. Yeah, young. Okay, wow, that's amazing. Okay, go ahead. dnfh79c6y5: And like there was never any, like I was always told I was adopted. Like I always knew, it was never hidden from me. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: And which was, I felt like it was a really great thing. And like mum used to explain it to me that, you know, my mother wasn't able to give me the life that she wanted me to have and that she loved me so much and that she wanted me to have the best. So that's why she gave me up. Cause those Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: questions come up, you know what I mean? You think, well, why did my mother give me up? You know. Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: But my adoptive mum, she was always very graceful about the whole situation. She never ever said anything about my biological mother or made me feel different because of the fact that I was adopted. was just, you know, this is how it is. Aaron: Hm. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: Tried to raise us Catholic, my mother did. I remember going to church in the early days to the Catholic church and the smell of the old pine seats and all that Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: sort of stuff. Aaron: Yeah, yeah, the pews are K. dnfh79c6y5: Horrible memories. Because you had to, like, you know, you had to do all the thing when you walked into the water and kneel down and then there was the Aaron: Mm-hmm. dnfh79c6y5: stand up, kneel down. I just didn't like it really, to be honest. We just Aaron: Yeah, sure, sure. dnfh79c6y5: did it because we were kids and did what mum wanted. And Aaron: Told us to do. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: then we're not going to older. I think it was about 14. I just started to rebel and said, look, I'm not going. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: That's when I stopped going. And yeah, country town upbringing. So I grew up in that town, seeing the culture around me, modeling. you look at the... I guess you're looking for some sort of figure, some sort of like, who am I as a man? What do I do? And you look at the other males around your life and you go, okay, well, that's what I need to be. You know, I need to imitate that, that, that and that. Aaron: Right. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: So of course, it was no surprise when I got older that... I was caught up in the same culture of drinking, cars, know, just the whole lot. just, Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: it becomes, and especially in a small town because you're very isolated and you don't get to see anything else. know, hadn't, yes, yeah, that was good and bad. Like it was good if Aaron: Yeah. And I get does everyone kinda know each other and kind of thing too? Yeah. Yep. So your influence is a yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: you, you know, wanted to go out for the day and you'd see people you knew and it was great. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: But if you had an enemy, You didn't want to run into them. And you couldn't avoid it always, you know what mean? Aaron: Yeah, I bet. Yeah, right, for sure. Mm, mm. dnfh79c6y5: So yeah, big pub culture. There was always fights. There was always, yeah, people gossiping and, it's, you just, I just grew up in it. Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah. And eventually I ended up getting into a relationship. I had a daughter. I was heavily drinking back then. All still in Tassie. Aaron: This is all still in Tasmania. Yep. dnfh79c6y5: And then one day things just got to a breaking point and I just took up, took off, basically left, left Tassie. A lot of personal struggles, a lot of different issues and I'd had enough. Aaron: Do you mind how old were you how old were you at that point when you left? dnfh79c6y5: 22, I think, 21 or 22? Yeah, my Aaron: Forty two, yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: daughter was 10 months old. That was the hardest part, know, Aaron: Yeah. wow, yeah. Hmm. dnfh79c6y5: kissing her goodbye and kind of leaving and like I knew I was gonna leave, nobody else did. Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: And then I just took off and came to Aaron: Mm. Okay. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, devastating time for me. I think when I got to Melbourne, it was like, freedom, you know, I don't know, nobody knows. What's that? Aaron: Why Melbourne? Why Melbourne? Because that was just closest state. dnfh79c6y5: Well, this is, yeah, no, this is part of the other story. I'm glad you asked that question because I forgot, but my biological mum lived in Melbourne. I didn't know that until I was about, after my daughter was born. That was when I started to search for my biological mother. Because the question Aaron: Right, okay. dnfh79c6y5: was always there, know, who is she? Like, is she alive? Why did she give me up? What, you know, like, who is this woman? Aaron: Hmm Of course. And you never gave it much thought when you were young younger? You just kinda just Right, okay. Didn't really pursue it. God ya. dnfh79c6y5: I did occasionally, but I think as I got older, it become a bit more, yeah, that's right. So I started to look for her and then I found her because she'd been looking for me since I was 18. So Aaron: Wow. dnfh79c6y5: she'd been waiting three years to find me. Anyway, I joined this organization called Jigsaw. They made the match and when they called me to let me know, I was like, I didn't really believe it. I'm like, are you sure? Are you sure? You know what I mean? And it was definitely her. Aaron: Wow. dnfh79c6y5: We organized a phone call. She rang me one day and yeah. That was it. then eventually I just come over. 21. No, no, no, knew all. Aaron: So how old were you when you made touch when you when you found out? You found out at twenty one that that that matched that dnfh79c6y5: yeah. So, sorry. Yeah. At 21, I started to look for her. I found her within two weeks. Cause she'd already registered with the organization. You see, they just Aaron: Yeah, yeah. dnfh79c6y5: needed the match. Aaron: That's amazing that they have those types of organizations out there. Yeah, right, okay. So that's why was that the thing dnfh79c6y5: Yeah. Yeah. Aaron: that like pushed you to go to Melbourne and li leave Tassie? Or was it kind of a dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, it was. Aaron: mixture of all the stuff and fre needing a new start and that kind of stuff? dnfh79c6y5: A mixture of all of it. I think having somewhere else to go outside of Tasmania altogether Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: was, yeah, that was, I don't know. It just seemed like the right thing at the time. I mean, it was probably Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: an emotional decision, but hey, it happened. And now here I am. And I look back at it and I see that it was all part of God's plan, you know? Yeah. Aaron: That's the amazing thing, isn't it? Hindsight, when you go God was stringing some stuff together, man, just mm. dnfh79c6y5: 100%. And I think, sometimes I think that I was brought up in Tassie with the parents that I was because my mother who brought me up, she was very strict. Aaron: Right. dnfh79c6y5: Very strict and very, she was a disciplinarian, know, like dad wasn't around a lot, like he was a big drinker himself. Aaron: Mm-hmm. dnfh79c6y5: you know, they used to fight a lot, know, wake up sometimes and see, you know, kitchen windows completely smashed or whatever it may be you know lot of there's a lot of stuff went on Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Mm. dnfh79c6y5: and where was I going with that so I lost my train of Aaron: So you nah, you're right. So you get you finally so you get to that's the d that's the reason, maybe all that com getting to Melbourne. dnfh79c6y5: yeah, that's right. But also that I think God put me with that family as well, because if I didn't have the discipline I had, and I'm like, it took a lot to keep me under control. Let me just say that. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: I think I would have been a lot worse, Aaron. Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: I really do. Yeah, Aaron: Wow. dnfh79c6y5: so anyway. Long story short, the drinking had already set in by that stage. So I was pretty much an alcoholic by that time. Everything revolved around drinking, partying. And when I got to Melbourne and found all the different clubs and pubs and things Aaron: What have you been? dnfh79c6y5: like that, it was like, But yeah, and I just got heavier and heavier into the drinking and ruined a lot of relationships and upset my biological mother. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: You know, all sorts of stuff, all sorts of problems came along with it. correct, correct. Aaron: Sorry, so did you connect and start living with your biological mum? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: And she was married with her husband of however many years and had two other boys, which I never knew about until I was younger. Aaron: Okay. Similar age to you or were they younger? Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, I was a result of another relationship that she'd had. And Aaron: Right. Gotcha. dnfh79c6y5: yeah, the boys didn't even know about me. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: and neither did her husband. So that was a story she had to have with them. So, they knew before I rocked up. Yeah. Aaron: wow. So when you rocked up that was prior? 'Cause you n you were planning did they did she know you were planning on coming to live with them and be with them? No. dnfh79c6y5: No, no, but she knew she had to tell him because the relation, you she was starting to come to see me. She flew over to see me and all that sort of stuff. Aaron: It was gonna happen you're gonna s yeah. Yeah. Mm. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah. And it just got crazier and crazier. Really. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: just, you know, a lot of, yeah, just. don't know, getting drunk, taking drugs. That's when the, you know, things like ecstasy and all those sort of things came out on the scene. I was like, I was at the point where I was willing to experiment with everything and anything. Yeah. Yeah. So. Aaron: Everything, yeah. Yeah. Hmm. If I ask you what was it like trying to reintegrate into a fam like, you know, 'cause I think some people I'd again I have no idea 'cause I've I've not been adopted, but I could imagine you ha don't know your mum. You don't know this this you know, this figure who's you know you know they're ex they're out there and then you long to be with them and then you finally do reconnect. What's that like trying to reintegrate that relationship after having so many years apart and and trying to figure all that out with then you got she's got a new family there too. Is it like you feel kind of connected but then you also feel like an outsider or is it Yeah, like and I g I'm sure it depends on the family and all that, but how does that feel for you? dnfh79c6y5: I was very fortunate. So the first time I met her, she flew down to Tassie, because her sister still lived there. So we met up in Aaron: Hmm. Right. dnfh79c6y5: in Burnie at her sister's place. Aaron: Okay, yeah. dnfh79c6y5: And I remember seeing her for the first time, you know, like I go up, I was nervous as anything knocking on the front door. And, and she opened the door. Aaron: my gosh. It's Adam of the movie. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: And she had her cousin behind her. And I just We just grabbed each other and hugged each other and cried. It Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: was really, yeah, it was just, I don't know, it was like there was this gap, this thing that been missing for so long. And yeah, just, man, it was crazy. There was a connection between me and her straight away. Like Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: we'd spoken a lot on the phone and she was very, I don't know, we just connected really well. And she Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: answered a lot of questions for me that I'd had and she was very honest with me. yeah. And so we just, yeah, we, we met that day and she said, I suppose you want to know who your father is as well. And I said, yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. The other guy. Aaron: yeah, the other one. The other party involved. Yeah, yeah yeah. dnfh79c6y5: It was, I don't know what it was with me. It was more about mum. I don't know why that was, but that, that seemed to be the main thing for me. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: yeah, don't know why, but anyway, I ended up meeting my dad as well and the whole family, you know. his parents, so I had a new set of grandparents and all this sort of stuff. they were all in, well, my dad was in Tassie, yeah, and my grandparents, yeah. Aaron: Wow. And they're all in Tassie they're all in Tassie, obviously. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Mm. that would have been amazing. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, it was. Aaron: Okay, so you then get reintegrated and then you're in Melbourne. So you're back in Melbourne, doing the drugs, doing the partying scene at twenty one, twenty two years old, something like that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so how dnfh79c6y5: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, 22, yeah. Aaron: does your journey progress there towards yeah, towards Christ and all that kind of stuff? Yeah, go with us. dnfh79c6y5: mate, it just got worse, really. mean, look, you think it's fun at the time. you know, I've got to say, going out to, you know, to me, it was like, you go from a town of 4,000 people to a city of 3 million. That was about three at the time, I think, back in 1988, it was. Aaron: Oof. dnfh79c6y5: And I just remember thinking, this place is crazy. I just always wanted to live. It was like I always wanted to live here. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: I used to have dreams actually about walking along this beach and come around the corner and there was a big city in the background. thought that's where I'm supposed to be. You know, like this was back in Tassie. Aaron: yeah, yeah, yeah. dnfh79c6y5: And I don't know if that's connected, but anyway, I've always remembered it happened Aaron: Yeah, that's cool. That's cool. dnfh79c6y5: to me a few times. Anyway, so I'm in this city and people are kind of rushing everywhere, which I'm not used to. used to, I'm the slow Tasmanian guy walking around just chilling, you know. Aaron: Chillin' just chillin'. Yep. Take my time. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, I don't know if anyone's ever seen the movie Crocodile Dundee, but that was me, you know. Wow, look at these buildings. Wow. Not so much. I had seen them before, Aaron. Aaron: Did you freak out about the escalators as well, like in Crocodile Dundee? Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: But yeah, and I just remember people being very different. People would bump into you and never say sorry. think, these people are so rude. You know what mean? And it wasn't long before I became one of them. I fit in really well. Yeah, yeah. So. Aaron: It's like, I get it now. I get it now. I it now, I what we're doing. dnfh79c6y5: You just didn't have time to say sorry to every person that you bumped into but you know different thinking country and city Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: anyway, so yeah, the partying just kept going and Look I could tell you so many stories Aaron. There's you know, when you're talking about this period of time, you know 30 years it's like so much happens in that time and Aaron: Of course. dnfh79c6y5: There's a lot of different stories like I can tell you that the majority of the time I would wake up in my bed in the mornings and not know how I got home. That's pretty much the extent of it. I had no idea, right? But Aaron: Right. Yeah. Mm. dnfh79c6y5: I wake up in my bed, somehow I'd made it home. Yeah, but that Aaron: Well, praise God. That's scary, yeah. dnfh79c6y5: was regular for me. I drank until I dropped, really. Aaron: Right. Hmm. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, so that was that. And then of course, there's an emptiness and a loneliness that comes along with it all. You might be party central and having the time of your life, so to speak. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: But at the end of the day, looking back at it now, I can see that it was really affecting my overall being, like who I was as a person. There Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: was also a lot of stuff that I was drinking to forget about, suppress, or just act out even. things that I kind of felt a bit ashamed of or embarrassed of in the normal world, but Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: drinking allowed me to do whatever I wanted to do, you know Aaron: Escaped out of Yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: what mean? Without feeling guilty or whatever that may be. Aaron: Right. dnfh79c6y5: So anyway, I got to the point where I think by the age of 24, I was pretty much ready to end it all. I had a lot of torment inside mentally. couldn't manage relationships. I thought people were against me. was in, I had so many people around me. I've always been a very vibrant kind of person and you know, I could convince 10 people Aaron: Hmm. dnfh79c6y5: from work to come down to the pub with me. Like that, you know what I mean? I was very good at getting people together and things like that. But inside, even though had all these people around me, I felt like I was the loneliest person in the world to be honest. when things started to get really heavy, I just thought, who can I talk to? The closest person I was was my sister. I was close to her. And I imagined telling her all the stuff that I was going through. And I Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: thought, she's going to think I'm mad. She's going to think I'm insane. I Aaron: Right, yeah. Sure, sure, yeah. dnfh79c6y5: can't tell her all this stuff. And that just made me feel even worse. I'm just like, I'm sitting in the city one day and I'm watching all those people go by and I thought, I'm so lonely. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: I just wanted to, I honestly wanted to end my life and I worked out how to do it. I was going to take a load of Valium, drinks, lot of alcohol and just put my head over a train track. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: And what scared me was the fact that I actually, that's actually how I, I was actually thinking of how to do it. And I was seriously thinking about it, but then, and this is where God comes into the picture, right? Yeah. Aaron: Mm. So if I pause you there, Tim, sorry. What is what's your perspective of God up until this point? Like obviously with the Catholic stuff and and leading up, you know, everything you're going through. Is is God in the picture? dnfh79c6y5: great. Good question. Aaron: Is he you kinda believe but don't really know what's going on or just atheist? Yeah, where was that pri just prior to or up to this point? Right, okay. Yep, yep. dnfh79c6y5: Pretty much, yeah, pretty much atheist. You know, I'd seen things, you know, I'd be on the train. I remember this. I was on the train going past some graffiti and it said, God loves you, right? Yeah, sure. No, look, Aaron: know, like, smack that outta here Yeah. Okay. dnfh79c6y5: I felt like after all the things that I'd done, there's no way God would have anything to do with me. Like, I'm the biggest, you know, I've done so many things against God. I'm one of those people. that is, you know, that gets talked about, you know, you're not gonna go to heaven or whatever it may be. Not that I thought too deeply about it, but it was just like, no, you know, Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: I'm out of that realm. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: But anyway, but the whole suicide thing, wanting to take my own life, don't know. Yeah, I think that was the turning point because the only thing that stopped me, this is a funny thing, right? Like the only thing that stopped me was, the fact that I wasn't certain what was gonna happen to me when I died, because number one, I knew it was permanent, right? I reasoned with that. I thought, if I do this, this Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: is forever. There's no coming back. You can't go, well, that was the wrong thing. Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: I wanna change my mind. I wanna out. You can't. And I thought about that, thought very seriously about that. And then I thought to myself about the whole, the God thing, right? I thought, well, if there is a God, If there is a God, if I do this and there is a God, I'm wrong, right? There is a God, I'm in trouble. Aaron: Mm-hmm. dnfh79c6y5: And that's the only thing that stopped me. That's the only thing that stopped me. Aaron: Whoa. Whoa. What what what made you think you're gonna be in trouble if if you if if you did do it? dnfh79c6y5: More because of the way I'd lived. I've been drinking and drugs and immorality. Aaron, I did everything I could. Aaron: Right. I gotcha, yeah, yeah. Yeah, gotcha. I said he thought I'm cooked. I'm cooked, yeah, he thought I'm cooked. Hmm. dnfh79c6y5: There was no limits with me. I was Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: just out of control, especially with the alcohol as well. Honestly, it just got worse and worse. Aaron: Yeah, yeah. Hmm. dnfh79c6y5: But anyway, so that's what stopped me. Aaron: Wow. dnfh79c6y5: I didn't turn to God straight away. Aaron: No. dnfh79c6y5: I did start to try and find out, okay, what can I do to change this because I'm sick of living like this. And I started to look for books and things, you know, like, and I spoke to my mom as well and she said, this is this great book by Liz Hayes. You can heal your life. And I thought, okay, that sounds great. You know, I want to heal my life. Aaron: Yeah. Let me heal. Yeah, yeah. dnfh79c6y5: And I read it and it had all these, what do they call them? Affirmations. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: Where you tell yourself, I am loving, I am lovable, Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: know, all these really nice things. And I thought, I'll give it a go. I mean, at the point where I don't, you know, I don't know what to do anymore. Yeah, I need to try something. Aaron: I need to try something. Yeah, I need to try something. Yeah, desperate. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: So I did all that. And after a while, I just thought, this is ridiculous. This Aaron: Right. dnfh79c6y5: is not, this is not helping. What am I doing? I'm just telling myself something, you know, like, Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, it didn't work. So I started looking around different avenues, went to different bookshops. We didn't really have the internet back then Aaron, so just letting you know. Aaron: so you had to like go out. How did you find stores? dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, yeah, that's right. I knew my way around the city pretty well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Aaron: How do you find a bookstore? Just gonna walk randomly and hope you find a bookstore? Okay, fair enough. Yeah, yeah. You've been going now. You've been going now, so you true, yeah, true. dnfh79c6y5: that's right. So, yeah, it just went to the spiritual section or the self-help section and things like that. Yeah. And started to open all these different books and then I'd see this stuff. I'd start reading and then God would get mentioned in these books and I'd like close that, put that back on the shelf. What else have we got? So yeah, was looking for Aaron: Let me avoid it, yeah. dnfh79c6y5: something that suited me really. Now in that process, was funny because I'd be walking around town looking for these books and trying to help myself and whatever. During that process, I would get stopped in the street. Like people would stop me and go, excuse me, mate, I'm just inviting people along to a great church, wondering if you'd like to come along. And I'd be like, no thanks, see you later. And off I'd Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: go. And this started happening regularly, Aaron. Like I'd go into the city and I'm just like, someone else had stopped me and, me, I'm just talking to people about God and la la la. And I'm like shaking my head and I'm walking off. Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: But it did make me think, know, like sometimes I'd be like, what's going on here? And I didn't want Aaron: Hm. dnfh79c6y5: to be confronted with this whole God thing. And I know I'm not in the right, you know, God, I'm Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: not living the right way, whatever, according to you guys. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: And anyway, one day, this happened, like you wouldn't believe how many times this happened, Aaron, and I just refused Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: it every time. Anyway, one day I got stopped and I thought, here we go again, straight away. And I just said, Aaron: Here we go. What how old how old are you right now? Are you dnfh79c6y5: probably 20, 23, 24. I can't remember exactly, but Aaron: twenty three. So a couple years have gone by since yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. Yep. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, mid twenties or something, yeah. dnfh79c6y5: yeah. And yeah, one guy stopped me and I said, you're from that church, aren't you? And he just kind of looked at me like a bit shocked. And I said, I said, why do you guys keep picking on me? And he just looked me in the eye and he goes, well, maybe God's trying to tell you something. Aaron: Oof. dnfh79c6y5: And I just went, whatever mate, off I Aaron: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. dnfh79c6y5: went. And later on, I thought. I don't know. I started to contemplate things. I remember looking around for books. think I'm searching. I'm looking for answers. I'm trying to find stuff. This guy goes to me. Maybe God's trying to tell you something with all these church people stopping you and something clicked. I was just like, yeah, it was, I don't know. I contemplated this stuff a little bit. And by this stage, by the way, Aaron, sorry, a piece of the story I missed out and Aaron: No go. dnfh79c6y5: was I'd stopped drinking at this stage. Aaron: Hm. dnfh79c6y5: I went to an AA meeting. one Aaron: Great. dnfh79c6y5: AA meeting and I walked out of there and I thought I'm not going back to that. Aaron: Right, okay, okay. dnfh79c6y5: Because my idea was I just want to stop and the AA meeting she stood up and said, Hi, my name is Tim and I'm an alcoholic. Aaron: Right. dnfh79c6y5: And I, there was something about that that I just didn't want to be that to be my identity. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: You know, I didn't want to stand up every week and say that's, that's what I am. That's who Aaron: Right. dnfh79c6y5: I am. So I was out of there. thought, no, I can do this myself. And I stopped drinking Aaron: Right. dnfh79c6y5: and I think things started to become a bit clearer after I stopped drinking. And then eventually after kind of blotting everything, I thought, I need to settle this God thing. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: And I decided that day, God, if you're real, I wanna follow you. And Aaron: Well. dnfh79c6y5: I wanna find somebody from that church that's been invited me to church. So I went into the Burke Street Mall and I had my Sony Walkman on with a cassette tape, We're going back here. I can tell you, was listening Aaron: before my gosh, she had walking. dnfh79c6y5: to new kids on the block. I don't know if you heard of them. So I've Aaron: There you go. There you go. Yeah now of course of course of course yeah yeah. dnfh79c6y5: got the Sony Walkman, I'm sitting down and watching the people go by, music going, I'm feeling a little bit excited. I'm thinking, I'm gonna do this. I can't believe it. I'm gonna turn to God. I'm gonna find out what this is all about. There's a little bit of excitement in there. Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: And I anyway, I prayed if you're real, I want to meet one of the guys from the church and I sat there and I thought I'm gonna make one of those guys from that church. Anyway. Aaron: You reverse it's a reverse. It was a come and find I'm here. I'm here. Come and find me. Okay, okay, okay. Okay. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. And within five minutes, about Aaron: No. dnfh79c6y5: six or seven meters away from me, I saw these two guys stopping them all. One asked the other guy a question, the other guy shook his head and walked off. And I thought, well, he's got to be inviting him to church because that's what I used to do, shake my head and walk off. So I got up and this guy was starting to walk off. So I went after him. was, excuse me, excuse me. He turns around and he's like. What's up? I said, what were you asking that guy? He said, was, he was in a bit of shock, you know, I was just inviting you along to church. I said, great, you're just the person I want to see. Yeah, Aaron: That's crazy, man. dnfh79c6y5: it was amazing. And anyway, he, we went over and sat in another spot in the mall. started chatting. He got a scripture. He said, do you want to have a look at the Bible? I said, yes. He got a scripture out and it was absolutely perfect for me. Absolutely perfect. It was from God. Aaron: Wow. Do you remember the passage? Do you remember the passage? Yeah. What what what which one? Which one? wow. Yeah. Luke fifteen. Yeah. Woof. dnfh79c6y5: 100 % mate, I'll never forget it. It was the prodigal son. It was the prodigal son. like he read it, he read it to me and instantly I knew I was the prodigal son. The father in the story was God. But you know, the beautiful thing about it, Aaron, was that father. I get a bit teary when I talk about this. But that that father. Aaron: No man, that's amazing. I'm tingling a little bit. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: That father wanted his kid to come home. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: know, he wasn't, see, I'm gonna tear up about this. Don't you dare put this up. No, you can if you like, you can if you like, mate. You can if you like. Aaron: Whatever you want, no, no, no. Nah. I really appreciate it. This is amazing. dnfh79c6y5: It was, yeah, all the fear that I'd had about who this God was and he was against me and I've done the wrong thing. It was like, no, Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: he just wants his kid to come home. And I was like, wow. And that convinced me and it was that day, I felt like, wow, I can approach my father. I can approach him and he's Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: not gonna be, look what you've done. Look at all the things Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: you've done against me. You've done this, you've done that. You're Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: terrible. You deserve to go to hell, blah, blah, blah. I was like, no, he wanted me in the house and Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: he wanted to get all the celebration out and like the fattened calf and let's have a party. My son's home. And Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: that gave me... That gave me so much confidence to know that that's who God was. And yeah, that was it, Aaron. just, Aaron: Wow. dnfh79c6y5: I came home. I was like, yeah. Aaron: Wow. So that was my god what what do you remember when when he when he showed you the passage, was there anything in particular that like in the passage that that just went that that that moment just blew you away? Or was just the was it just the whole thing and what you guys were talking about? Hmm. dnfh79c6y5: The whole thing it was it you know the product was on how he was eating eating with the pigs and I just knew that that was me and I like. Aaron: Yeah. 'Cause you did I guess you didn't know the s the you didn't know the parable, right? So the first time you're going through it, you're probably like, This guy, what is what is it? And did you identify straight away with the the younger son? Yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: Straight away. Straight away. And that's how come I know it was from God, Aaron. How does that happen? Do you know what I mean? It Aaron: of course it's dnfh79c6y5: just spoke to me immediately. God knew where I was at. He knew what I'd done. He knew exactly what I needed to be able Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: to have the confidence to come home. Aaron: Wow. Cause you must have you must have been reading the passage and been like thinking, man, the dad's gonna w you know, when the when the son makes a decision to come home, you might have 'cause you didn't know what was gonna happen, you're probably gonna think, this he's he's gonna get whooped or something or something bad's gonna happen. So the big f the big flip must have just been yeah, it would have been just so probably overwhelming and been like, my goodness, like this is and I think this is a really good thing 'cause I think, yeah, you know, people's perceptions of God is a really important is a really important thing, right? 'Cause Some people think of him as the judge. Some people think of him as the yeah, the teacher, you know, the the angry teacher. some think of him as the father. Now, I think there's elements, it's always elements of God, right? It's not like it's not just it's always just one facet. He's so incredible, it's so many. But personally, and like what you said, this is my favorite depiction of who God is. Like dnfh79c6y5: Hmm. Aaron: I he's holy, he's the just judge, and he and and actually that actually help I think that lends even more so to how amazing of a father he is, right? 'Cause he he doesn't just sit idly by. He actually he's the righteous, holy one, and then he's our father as well. And it just the and being a dad too must have been it must have been it must have hit you too, right? Like your your your daughter, you know, as well. And just seeing this this is who God is would have just been yeah. It's my favorite definitely depiction of who God is, the grace, the love. but a father also disciplines. A father also is is stern. But Yeah, that would have been just been so powerful. So that that is so true that God just gave you exactly what you needed in the And again, I just it's amazing. It doesn't it just I hear it so many times as God keep even the last conversations I've had with a couple of other brothers and other people, God just meeting people where they're at all the time. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah. Aaron: my gosh, it just It it's so powerful. It's dnfh79c6y5: Thanks. Aaron: just amazing. That's who our God is. So wow. So that moment dnfh79c6y5: Mmm. Aaron: you make a decision, and I guess you you you keep going to church, you can't stop being part of the church community, get yeah. dnfh79c6y5: Well, he asked me if I wanted to come along and I said, yep. And then he Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: said, can I get your phone number? I said, no, no, that's all right, mate. Don't worry, I'll be there. Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: And he gave me the address and whatever. And yeah, I was there. And then Aaron: That was it. dnfh79c6y5: I sat in church and I listened to, it was Mike Fasalo preaching at the time. And I thought, when I was there and the lesson was happening, I was like, does he know I'm sitting in here? Because... He's talking about me. Like what's going on here? No. Aaron: Do you remember the sermon? No. dnfh79c6y5: That I don't remember. I just remember it feeling really strange. thought, Aaron: Hey, the spirit the spirits Mmm Mmm dnfh79c6y5: did the guys tell him that I was here today or something? Because he's talking about me. But look, Aaron, remember. One of the most impactful things was on that day was just the amount of people that came up to me and said, hi, what's your name? And yeah, it was incredible. And I was, I don't know, I felt really starved of, I realized I was really starved of love because people would come up and then they start hugging me and stuff like that. I was never uncomfortable around that, right? People, Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: I know some people go, ugh, like that, but I was like, wow, give me more. Aaron: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you still do that to me to this day. Every time in church you get So yeah, it's like I gotta I gotta preach to him, I gotta preach, get off me like dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, that's right. At least I'm not choking you. Aaron: No, but you are a very, very, very, very loving guy. I love it. I love it. dnfh79c6y5: Fantastic. But yeah, I couldn't get enough of it, Aaron. And then, course, Bible studies started after that. Aaron: Hmm. Mm. Yeah. And then how when did you decide to get baptized? dnfh79c6y5: Do you know, I don't even know what date I got baptized. I can't tell you. Yeah, yeah, within about two weeks, I was Aaron: Was it pretty quick though, when everything happened? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: ready to go. yeah. I, Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: know, once I sat down and studied the Bible with these guys, I just... I was lapping it up at this stage, Aaron. was like, Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: and it was all making so much sense to me. Like everything just made sense for once in my life. These, Aaron: Wow. dnfh79c6y5: I always describe it to people. had these cogs spinning around in my head Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: and eventually they just all started to click into place and it made sense. Life made sense. Everything made sense. Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: And to me, that was the thing that kind of sealed the deal because it's like, well, this is I'm not an easily convinced person. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: I make up my own mind about everything and you can't, Aaron: Mm-hmm. dnfh79c6y5: I wasn't just some vulnerable little guy that was gonna get influenced by some sort of religious cult or whatever it may be. I'm Aaron: Yeah, yeah. dnfh79c6y5: running into things, making my own decisions and looking at the facts and weighing up what's happening. I cannot explain, you can't explain, what happened internally apart from the fact that God was in play. Like this was crazy stuff, like, and the cross made sense, what Jesus did made sense, the way I was in my head, the things that I'd done in my life, Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: all of it just made sense. Aaron: Wow, that's amazing. So it was man, the click must have been it must have felt so I don't even know what the word is to describe. Just have everything come together and just go Here it is. This is this is it. This is what I've been looking for. This is the answer. This is dnfh79c6y5: Correct. Aaron: and I love it how God was he's going for you, man. Like he was coming even though you're trying to slam dnfh79c6y5: yeah. Aaron: the doors. I don't want that book. Get me out of here. God, no, don't talk to me. You know, it's just no, he was coming after you and he he was pursuing you. That's that's it's so it's so powerful. And so you make the decision to become a Christian and so what how old were you then at that point? Twenty five twenty four, twenty five, twenty si early. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so you've been dnfh79c6y5: 24 I think. Aaron: walk so you've been walking with Jesus now. For I don't I don't mean to reveal your age, but you it's just it's just the math. But sixty one okay, okay, there you go, there you go. dnfh79c6y5: I'm sixty-one, you can say it, mate. Aaron: So so that's about thirty f let's say thirty five twenty four thirty five to thirty seven years you've been walking with Christ. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, something like that. I had a seven year hiatus where I walked away for a while, yeah. Aaron: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah, and I think that's I think this is good. I th and again the the previous conversation and something that I've been reflecting on too is this the idea of sanctification and the process of, you know, when we become Christian, that is amazing and that's when we're justified before God, we're saved. Amen. But and I was talking about this with Chris the other day. It was just the idea of as a Christian now, it's about turning more and more like Christ every single day. It's the longest portion of our life is gonna be spent in sanctification and becoming more like Jesus. There's gonna be highs, there's gonna be lows, there's gonna be very lows, but it's about dnfh79c6y5: Yes. Aaron: continually walking and walking and walking. I the if you I if you h if you're comfortable to talk about that seven year height, I don't know exactly w when that when that was exactly, but dnfh79c6y5: Yeah. Aaron: yeah, if a bit of deta some de context around that, dnfh79c6y5: Yeah. Aaron: what happened and then even coming back how that how that was. dnfh79c6y5: Yep, so seven years it was roughly 2000, no 1990. 95 roughly, I think. Yeah, anyway, somewhere around there. Yeah, Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. A couple years into it. dnfh79c6y5: for me it was like, so what happened for me was I started to go back. Well, I'd become a Christian, everything was great. And then there'd be moments where I'd slip up, where I'd fall into sin. I'd start going back into old habits. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: Things that, yeah, just, I don't know, they just really... became an issue for me. I remember being down the banks of the Yarra River, crying my heart out, God, just take this stuff away from me, help me, Aaron: Hmm. dnfh79c6y5: blah, blah, blah. Trying to be really sincere and whatever, but you know, and then these habits, these sins just kept on coming back into my life. And it got to the point where I just started thinking, what am I doing? I'm, I feel like I'm living this double life where I'm trying to be righteous and trying to do the right thing by God, but Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: I'm also getting into sin, you know, like being, being immoral sometimes as well, you know, like that kind of stuff. Aaron: Right. Mm-hmm. dnfh79c6y5: And it got to the point where, well, actually, and then I did my first trip overseas to South America, to Chile. And that's where I left, that's where I walked away because I went over there and then I just got myself into a bit more trouble, you know, with immorality Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: and stuff like that as well. in the end, I was just like, I can't keep doing this. I can't keep saying that I love God and I'm following God, but then going and indulging myself in these behaviors. So Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: I just thought, well, this is not fair on God and whatever. And I just walked away and I just basically Aaron: Right. dnfh79c6y5: went, I thought, well, I'll be different this time because I'm not going to drink and I'm not going to smoke and I'm not going to do all the things I used to do because I know where that ends up Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: and I'll just live a different, a better life. That's what I thought. That's what I thought. Aaron: But not as bad. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: But it actually, it actually got worse, you know, and Aaron: Right, okay. Wow. dnfh79c6y5: it reminded me of that whole scripture about when you know, the clean the house and then seven more demons come in more wicked than the others, right? Aaron: Mm yeah. If you don't f if you don't fill it up, yeah, if you don't fill it up with the good stuff, yeah. dnfh79c6y5: I literally got worse. I Aaron: Hmm. dnfh79c6y5: drank again and then started smoking again and then I started taking bigger risks with sin and whatever. I guess I thought I was bad before, but by the end of Aaron: Well. dnfh79c6y5: that seven years, it had become worse. And then Aaron: Well dnfh79c6y5: one day, well, I had probably the worst hangover I'd ever had in my life, laying on my couch in... North Melbourne trying to recover. I must, my dad, getting up for many mornings. So think it started to happen towards the end. Like almost every day I'd get up and have a shower. And then there'd be this kind of, you've got to go back to God. You got to go back to God. Aaron: Hmm. dnfh79c6y5: You're just cleaning the outside of the cup. You're just cleaning the Aaron: Hmm. dnfh79c6y5: outside, you know? And I'd be like, la la la, no, I'm not hearing that. Not hearing that. Not, yeah, turn it down. Not happening, not happening. Aaron: Turn it down, turn it down, turn it down. Yeah, turn it down. No Holy Spirit, turn it down. Yeah, didn't you? dnfh79c6y5: La la la. And then on the couch with the hangover that day, I just thought, I can't keep doing this. I cannot, I can't every day pretend that voice is not happening in my head. You know, every day it was in the shower. It was bizarre. Like in the shower, washing the outside of the cup. That always came into my mind. You know, what about the inside? Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: The whole thing. And... I just knew that I could not live the rest of my life. I'm watching TV, right? There's earthquakes, famines, floods, you know, all the signs. I try and watch a movie, there'd be a death scene, someone would bring the Bible out and read a scripture out of the Bible. was like, there was no hiding from the fact that, you know, this stuff's gonna be in my face all my life, and I'm Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: just gonna sit there trying to resist it, you know? In the end, I was like, I've gotta go back to God. I've gotta do it. My life's a mess again. And Aaron: Wow. dnfh79c6y5: I got on the phone and I ended up finding the phone number for the church and rang Mike for solo of all people and I said, you know, hey Mike, blah, blah, blah. And anyway, I said, do you know who this is? And I hadn't spoken to him for seven years, right? And he listened to me a bit and then he got my voice. Tim. Aaron: Well, he knew. dnfh79c6y5: And I said, Mike, what are you still doing there? Aaron: Ha ha ha. dnfh79c6y5: And he said, someone's got to wait for you, wait around for you guys to come back. So anyway, that's it. I came, Aaron: Mmm Shout out Mike man, shout out Mike. dnfh79c6y5: I came back and yeah, here I am. It's been 20 years since I've been back. If anyone, Aaron: Wow. Yes. Praise God. That's dnfh79c6y5: if anyone does the maths, by the way, they're probably going to work out, they're to go, hang on. Aaron: Just gonna dnfh79c6y5: It wasn't there. No, he's got that wrong. And I'll probably have, but you Aaron: Nah, so that's we're just we're gonna just go trying to put it all together. No, that's that's dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, that's right, that's right. Aaron: great. Twenty years man, that's amazing. So it's and I'm sure again, I probably probably testify to this, it's still ups and downs, right? It's not like it's it's all rainbows and fairies since that point. It's always up and down as a Christian and you know it's a passage dnfh79c6y5: Yep. Yeah. Aaron: that I love that passage. I forgot where it is, but it talks about, you know, a righteous man. It's not about It's not about how many times you fall. The righteous person gets back up, you know, and and continues to walk with Christ. And dnfh79c6y5: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Aaron: that's that's amazing. So if I ask you Tim, you've been a Christian for a long long time. And so I really appreciate you sharing your story 'cause it's so cool to have the context. Because again, I didn't know even some of this stuff, bro. This is and I probably some people don't even know some of this stuff that you're sharing, or the context of you. Yeah, which is hopefully you're cool dnfh79c6y5: They will now. Aaron: with that. But it just I think it for me now, even listening to it just in real time right here, it Seeing you, 'cause I think one of the one of the things I really love about you is your yeah, you're just very you're very loving, you're very you're very kind, you're very caring, you genuinely you genuinely care. And that even talk that I think goes into your, you know, the Windham TV and and the stories that you're covering, all those kinds of things. But you genuinely genuinely care about people, but and seeing your background, it just I think it just shows the overflowing gratitude that you have towards Christ and towards God and what he's done for you. It's just transformed you in in in a powerful way. doesn't mean you're perfect, doesn't mean that it's always highs, but it's something there that's just it's so deep rooted in you that you couldn't. It's like the you know, Peter when you said when when Jesus says, You guys gonna walk away? You know, after that the tough teaching in John chapter six and And he says, Peter says, You've got the words of eternal life. Where else are we gonna go? Like it's just it dnfh79c6y5: Mmm. Aaron: you know it's true. Like you just know it's true. dnfh79c6y5: That's right. Aaron: and I think you're just a great evidence and testimony of of of of Crest's power, man. So thank you so much for sharing all that. if I ask you, you've been a Christian for a long time, what are some ways this is reshaped, right? So how what are some ways that you feel like you've been reshaped in your perspectives, either on in in regards to God, in regards to the church, in our family of churches. What are some things that you've seen? Either maybe good things, that that's positive changes, maybe some things that we gotta be careful about, you know, that we gotta be weary of. Yeah, in your time of as a as a Christian and part of our particularly part of our church, church community and family. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, gosh, well, I think as a church, like from the early days, mean, as I said, it was great back in the early days. mean, I was loving it. It was tough because there was a lot of learning along the way. You didn't necessarily had people who'd been around for a long time, trying Aaron: Hmm. dnfh79c6y5: to help other people. you know, we've Aaron: All young, yeah. dnfh79c6y5: learned a lot more as we go. And I think we've become a lot more graceful. than what we used to be in the past. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: Not that there wasn't grace there in the past, it was definitely there, but like with any church, you have different areas that you need to work on. Yeah, so we've definitely become more graceful. I think one of the things that we've kind of lost along the way is, I guess a lot of... physical connection, a lot of get togethers. And I don't know whether this is something about getting older in the church, because I look at a lot of the young people and I don't know, but I mean, I've got involved in those groups anymore, but guys in their 20s, guys and girls in their 20s, are they getting together regularly, catching up and having parties? Aaron: Right. dnfh79c6y5: Because we did all that stuff when we were younger, you know what I mean? Aaron: Yeah, fellowship. Yeah, and just getting together. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: I remember going to so many parties and so many things that you would just take people along to and it was great. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: people really made an effort to get together. And if someone wasn't there, they'd be asking where you were, know, like, where were you? Why weren't you there? Aaron: Yeah. Mm, mm. dnfh79c6y5: So, and that may be happening now, but I think as you get older, that becomes a bit less, I think, which I kind of miss that a bit as well. Aaron: Yeah. Mm. Mm. dnfh79c6y5: But, you know, I'm glad if there's people, know, young people are still doing that, that's great. think, you know, living in what we had, you know, brothers houses, we called them and sisters houses, they were called, but, you know, Christians living together was a great thing to do when you're young. Like it really, Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: that shaped me a lot. You know, living with other guys. yeah. yeah. But it was good. Aaron: Mm. Yeah, that'll that'll test you and and definitely help you to mature. dnfh79c6y5: know, it's like they say, it was the best times, it was the worst times. You know what I mean? Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: But that's part of family. That's part of, and I think that that's one thing I really value. And it's why the reason that I wouldn't go anywhere else, because I've to church hopped. I've looked around back Aaron: Mm-hmm. dnfh79c6y5: in the day, but I can't find anything exactly like this. This is family. This is like, we are able to bring things up. We're able to talk about the tough stuff. You can't just throw a hissy fit and have your way. You know what I mean? It's like. It's not how it works. I mean, I've tried it. That's why I'm saying that. I've tried the hissy fit. It doesn't work. Aaron: Hmm. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: I was like, Aaron: That's it. dnfh79c6y5: I remember having a conversation with Mike once I was going through this really traumatic time and I was like, well, if this doesn't change, I'm leaving. I'm to go to another church. I'll have to go somewhere else. You know, I was almost, I was so angry and he just goes, I'm sorry to hear that Tim. Aaron: Mm-hmm. dnfh79c6y5: I'm like, Aaron: Yeah, you want him to come back. No, say something, say something, give me a reason, give me a reason. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, don't go, Tim, don't go. What do we need to do to help you, you know? So I do love the fact that, you know, people, yeah, I don't know, there's a realness about it and there's a discipline and things that I know I don't like at times, but I love as well because Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: I know when things aren't necessarily going all your way, and you're getting a bit of pushback and especially from several people in the church, I look at that as that's God, that's people who are being blunt and honest with you and you don't like what you're hearing, but you need to, I've learned that I need to walk away and I need to really look at that and try and figure it out because that's Aaron: Right. Hmm. dnfh79c6y5: what I love about it, I could go to another church and I could fit in and I could just do my thing. And I don't think people would really... come and ask me what's going on, why did I do that or why did I do this? They're not going to confront that. And I just, I think that's sad. Aaron: Hmm. Hmm. Mm. Mm. Hmm. Yeah, so yeah, so the you love the fact that it's just really it is like family. Like you can just yeah, and I guess we're talking about an ideal family because there I guess there are real families out there that don't talk about stuff either, right? So in the ideal sense of a family, that we are being honest or being real or being truthful. dnfh79c6y5: Correct. Aaron: how do you 'cause obviously one of the big criticisms sometimes of our of our church community, which I I think is is a good criticism at times, is that, you know, like what you said at the start, we can be very rigid or we can be very wooden about certain things. but you said we have grown in the grace, as well. So how do you balance that? 'Cause even with what you're saying, you know, you love that we can talk about things and be real about it. How do you balance that with the grace element, right? Where it's it's not just dnfh79c6y5: Mm-hmm. Aaron: about being boom boom boom, but also being grace gracious and gracious doesn't mean just letting people off, right? So how how do you kind of dnfh79c6y5: Ugh. Aaron: nuance that and and and what you've seen in your experience? dnfh79c6y5: It's the toughest part as far as I'm concerned. It's Aaron: Mm-hmm. dnfh79c6y5: very difficult, Aaron. I mean, look, you said to me before, you know, Tim, you're a very loving person and you know, that, I appreciate that. Other people have a different view of that because yeah, that's right. And I, Aaron: Depends on the side you see, huh? Yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: you know, I know that for me, it's important that I raise things with people. It's important that I bring things up. I'm not always great at it. Sometimes it comes from a place of frustration. But I'm always, I just think that we need to be able to talk openly and honestly with one another, especially when it comes to, don't Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: know, God's given us all different gifts. I have, I've known that, well, God showed to me that I have this perception. I can tell when things are not quite right or something's going on with somebody. I don't know exactly what it is, but. Aaron: In the charism dnfh79c6y5: I know that Aaron: in in like different church communities we probably call that some kind of like you get like revelation. A word of like a some kind of revelation. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know. That that's that's what that's what that's what some would call it. Like i that idea. Where you have a you have a inkling, like this inkling. Yeah, yeah. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, well, if you want to call it that. Yeah, right. An inkling, that's right. And I think God puts that there for a reason with me. But the thing is, I'm a person who digs, you know, I have to go in and find out, okay, what is that? Is it real? Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: Is it something that needs to be addressed? You know, because we can never just dismiss the fact that, you know, like we've all got the Holy Spirit, you you have Aaron, I have anyone else in the church. So, by just dismissing people's, you know, what they raise with you or try to talk to you about, I think it's very disrespectful and it's not spiritual. And I think we have to be able to have those conversations with one another and respect that, hey, this may be a way that God is working, you know? And I Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: think that's part of the problem that we do tend to have as Christians Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: is we don't trust one another. Aaron: Yeah, yeah. That's a good point. I I think what you're talking about is is is what I was thinking about is the idea of having like gracious conversation, you know, like let your conversation be seasoned with soul, you know, full of grace. and being humble. 'Cause I think if both parties are humble, then that's okay. 'Cause I think the natural tendency for me, if something if someone brings something up with me, my sinful nature would be to be defensive, right? Like why why are you dnfh79c6y5: Mm-hmm. Aaron: saying that? Why are you saying that? What are you you know, and that's and that is pride. in some sense in a lot of senses it's being prideful. on the other hand, you if you're bringing something up, you could also bring that up in an in a prideful way, where it comes across as judgmental or self-righteous, even if it might even be coming dnfh79c6y5: That's my problem. Aaron: Yeah, even if it comes from a good place, right? Even and so I think if both if both Christians are, you know, f humble and Ephesians talk Ephesians, you know, four talks about this being completely humble and gentle with one another, it's it's that is what the conversation is. That's I think that's how the fruitful conversations happen when we can bring stuff up and go, hey, I I don't mean to I'm not trying to accuse you, but this what I've noticed or this what I'm thinking I've got a feeling here, I could be wrong. What do you think about that? and doing it in that way. And I've done it where I've been really like that too. and so I guess it's sometimes our nature, like our personality too can be a bit like that. Like I think you're probably someone who you go for it, you know, you kinda could go for a confront, which is like a great thing. and maybe some people who are avoiders don't want to even breach certain topics and things like that. dnfh79c6y5: Thank you. Aaron: but I think if the if it's always overarched with humility and grace, always wanting what's best for the other Christian or the other person, I think that's that's a great that's a great way to go about it. dnfh79c6y5: Hmm. Aaron: yeah, I know what do you think about that? dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, I like it. I also think that sometimes I tend to go, want what's best for God. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: Because sometimes you can get caught in the human side of it and not in the godly side of it. know, is this really glorifying God? know, like, for Aaron: Right. dnfh79c6y5: example, you know, getting together, you know, they got together with glad and sincere hearts and met up regularly and, you know, It was very different back then because, you know, most of your neighbors would be in your street. know what mean? Most of the people Aaron: Mm-hmm. dnfh79c6y5: in your church would be just a couple of blocks away, you know, so you'd Aaron: Mm-hmm. dnfh79c6y5: be able to do that. Nowadays, it's a much more different thing, but it's more effort to get together. Aaron: Mm-hmm. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: But, you know, the Bible talks about, you know, getting together and doing that. And then what's the end result is that God added to their number daily those who were being saved. Aaron: Yeah, acts two. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: And yeah, that's right. And so I've had this thing about family and being together and things like that. And I think to help people to become Christians, we have to have something to bring them to a family, right? Aaron: Family. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: What does that, so what does that family look like? Aaron: Mm, mm. dnfh79c6y5: You know, and sometimes you have a dinner together, a get together with the family and people don't turn up. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: And it's like, It's almost like a sin if you ask them why they weren't there. It's a defensive element. Yeah. It's like, Aaron: Right, yeah, the defe that's a defensive element, yeah. Mm. dnfh79c6y5: wow. And you get to the point where you're, for me, I become too afraid to ask sometimes because I think, am going to come across as judgmental? Am I accusing? Aaron: Hmm. dnfh79c6y5: It's just really hard to find that right place to even ask a simple question. Aaron: Yeah, that's a that's a g yeah, that's it's true. And again, it depends even on the person that you're talking to, right? 'Cause if you know the person how they might respond and and I think it's dnfh79c6y5: Correct. Correct. Aaron: it's wis it's praying for wisdom on how to approach that. you know, it's dnfh79c6y5: Yeah. Aaron: funny, I'll think it as you were talking about bringing stuff up with people, I remember you probably you won't even remember this, but this is many, many years ago. I I liked something on Facebook, and it was I remember what it was. It was about it had to do with my football team, the like Essendon, and there was something it was like a meme of something. It had the it had some profanity in it, some pretty clear profanity. and I thought it was something was happening to my team at the time and I was like frustrated and then this thing happen this meme was there. So like liked it. I remember I liked it. I don't think I commented, but you know how it it shows up in other people's, you know, so and so liked this, so-and-so like and I dnfh79c6y5: Yes, yes. Aaron: remember getting a message from you, being like, Hey, you mess hey, I could probably look at it actually and hey bro, I saw you like this. this this this post i everything all right is everything good and then I was like what and I didn't even notice that it had a swear word in it and and I was like good point I was like thanks Tim that's that's that's that's good so I think I unliked it not that I feel you know it's you know people have certain things about that but I think I appreciate just that is your heart like you just wanna you wanna know and again some people will perceive that as maybe being judgmental or what you know but at the end of the day I think if you're really trying to do it And I I believe it's always from a g a good place and a good heart. You might not approach it correctly every time. I don't think I do all the time. I think that's a really that yeah, that's just a great heart that I think you have. yeah, I guess so how do how do we how do we I don't know, like what do you what do you think in terms of things that in that area with 'cause it seems like this is a really important area dnfh79c6y5: Thank Aaron: for you, right? Getting people together. and this does go into the conversation, which maybe we can spend a little bit of time here talking about like what is What is church? What is the family of God and and what does that actually look like played out in our in our community and in our specific church community? How do you kind of think about all that in terms of, you know, the small group model, like the like the, you know, Bible talk model, the ministry models, big church on a Sunday, that kind of stuff. How do you think about all that? dnfh79c6y5: I think it's all important. Yeah, I think all of it's important. Yeah. And I personally try to be at as much of that stuff that I can, do know what mean? Because yeah, there's value in all of it. The big church on Sunday, love it because I get to see everybody and it's like, you you've got everybody there worshiping God and everyone's kind of, there's a vibe, you know what I mean? Aaron: Mm, mm. dnfh79c6y5: people, you get to interact with people that you haven't seen for a while. And I love that. love the, Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. dnfh79c6y5: yeah, I love the, the kind of ministry groups or house to, you know, where we get together as little ministries out Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: in the different areas. And I think that's where I believe that's where most of the growth happens because you're, you're dealing Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: with people on a day to day basis. And well, we're not dealing with people on a to day basis. Aaron: More regularly. dnfh79c6y5: these times, but more Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: regularly and doing things together, know, organizing an event together, getting people together for a dinner or something like that. Because when everyone gets involved, rather than just turning up, it becomes, I don't know, the tempers flare a little bit. You you're trying to organize something, you know, people get a bit anxious and then something will happen and then, know, forgiveness has got to come in and Aaron: Mm-hmm. dnfh79c6y5: You know, you've got to practice all these kind of Christian values that we say that we have, but Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: you only really know that you have them when you get tested. It's like, you know, that old analogy of going to the gym, you know, you're not going to build your muscles unless you're lifting weight. And that's right. Aaron: Yeah. Resistance. Yeah, a bit of resistance. dnfh79c6y5: And being a being a Christian is all about that. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: So and that and I think that's where we can become avoiders, where it becomes too hard, it becomes too difficult. especially in the inter-relational stuff. But Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: that's the very kind of garden where God wants things to grow and help us. Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: So, the whole world will know that you are my disciples. That's what the Bible says, love one another deeply from the heart. Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: But it involves struggle and hardship and pain and yeah, but you get shaped by it. Aaron: absolutely. I mean, yeah, yeah. It challenges you. I mean, that's the big part dnfh79c6y5: In a good way. In Aaron: about the you know, even if we were joking not joking, but you know, talking about the brothers' flats and Christians living together, you know, it it it tests you 'cause you're living in proximity to one another. I personally haven't lived in a brother like I never did living in a brother's flat. I went straight from home with my family, who are Christians, to then, you know, married and with my wife. But I hear about it and I've seen it and it is testing being in those relationships because yeah, Robert probably hits the road sometimes. You have to have conflict. You dnfh79c6y5: Yep. Aaron: have all of these different situations where you're f forced if you want to be Christ like, you're forced to live out sc scriptural and biblical Christian values in those in the in that way. And yeah, I think it's a great point that you make about small group the smaller group stuff, really, I think a lot of growth happens in that. And I would say the majority of growth happens in that. I think that's a great point. again I love Sunday services. I think they're amazing. I love when we have more people together. But I think in reality you're not having those really transformative, deep conversations necessarily. You can. in those times. But dnfh79c6y5: Mm-hmm. Aaron: it they're not happening as much, but in the your community group, your your small group, whatever that is, the people that you know, the people that you're you're doing life with a little bit and and seeing each other on a regular basis, getting under each other's skin, like all that kind of stuff. dnfh79c6y5: Yep. Aaron: but being open and forgiving. And that's where a lot of that transformative reshaping I think really does happen. and y even like in the Bible, a a lot of Paul's epistles, he's addressing issues that are ha taking place within churches, right? Within the small group dnfh79c6y5: That's right. Aaron: and they would have been probably majority house church communities, right? And and be humble with one another, forgive one another, bear with one another in love. Like all that kind of stuff is in that dnfh79c6y5: Yep. Aaron: context. and yeah, I think that's a good point. Cause I think maybe in our church in our tradition, maybe a little bit, maybe more. I don't know what you think about this, so feel free to push back. But maybe we highlight sometimes the Sundays and the big services like a lot and like make sure it's like we we gotta get here. And then yeah, small groups are great too, but make sure you get to church. Make sure you get to that that big event and that's that's a great thing. and then yeah, I think we do have to obviously push the other the smaller group ministry stuff. And I don't think it's an either or, I think it's a both and. Like it's not you don't just go here and that's it. know. dnfh79c6y5: Yes, that's right. Aaron: What do you what what do you what do you think about that? So in terms of our perspective, dnfh79c6y5: I agree. Aaron: yeah. dnfh79c6y5: I agree. And this is where leadership becomes important as well, because it's very hard on a lower level as in when you get to the smaller groups to Aaron: Mm-hmm. dnfh79c6y5: kind of steer them in the right direction. Because if I'm trying to do something like that, it's like, well, who's he? That's just him, you know what I mean? But Aaron: Right. Mm. dnfh79c6y5: if it's a church kind of led thing and it's like, okay, it's made important. then there's more importance placed on it, you know, and Aaron: Hmm. dnfh79c6y5: it's very difficult to drive things from a different, from this level, if that makes sense. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: I've found that a real challenge because people just, I don't know, it's our nature. When we get to a point where, I don't know, some of us get to a point where we you know what, I just can't be bothered anymore. I just don't want to go out to that. I don't think that's important. I'm happy here. You know, we've got our own little worlds. I get it. I love being at home. I love having my nights in and stuff like that. And sometimes on a Wednesday night, I'm like, I'd rather stay home. You know, I get it. But I'm like, Aaron: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. dnfh79c6y5: no, I've made a commitment to God and to the church and Aaron: Yeah. To his people, yeah. dnfh79c6y5: to his people. And this is important stuff, you know. We're here to save souls. Aaron: Hmm. dnfh79c6y5: We're one of my favorite. reminders in scripture is you're a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. I don't even know if I'm going to be here at the end of the day, Aaron: Yeah, James five, yeah. Hmm. Hmm. dnfh79c6y5: And people hate hearing that stuff. I'm amazed at the amount of Christians as well that you start to talk about death, which is your reality. And it could be any day. don't talk about that. that's so negative. I'm thinking, you're going to be with God for eternity. Why is that negative? Yeah, it's Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: horrible that they... I don't want to go through the process myself, I'm telling you. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: the end result is going to be fantastic, know, like with you, with God forever. But Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: we've got to remind ourselves, and I do this every, there's not a day goes by Aaron, where I do not remind myself that I'm mortal, that this could be my last day on this planet. Because that puts everything into perspective, all the worries that I have, all the things that I'm concerned about, all that stuff, just, it's like, what am I chasing after? Right? Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: Am I wanting the next, you know, I don't even, was going to say, am I wanting the next house? I don't even have one house. I just, I just run with, I've got a home in, I've got a home in heaven, mate. You know, that's all I'm worried about. We're all renting. We're all renting here, to be honest, at the end of the day. You Aaron: That's Melbourne. That's Melbourne right now. Yeah. Yeah. Amen. Amen. Yeah. Mm mm. Mmm. It's a good point. dnfh79c6y5: know, not, as, as, as not anything wrong with having those things. I agree, but it's your focus, you know, like just remind, Aaron: Yeah, it's perspective. dnfh79c6y5: Remind yourself that you may not be here at end of the day. What Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: is all that gonna matter for you? Like I read the other day and you'll know the book, but I forget, but God talks about, you what are you doing building your own houses when my house lays in ruin? That's him. Is it Malachi? Yeah. And Aaron: Mm, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah it's Malachi. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. dnfh79c6y5: I read that the other week and I thought, wow, you know, in a sense, I think that's what a lot of us are doing. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: We're building our own house. And I'm talking about the physical stuff. talking about whatever that is, whatever the house is for you. Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: And his house is in ruins. What are you doing with your contribution? Are you Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: reaching out to people? Are you trying to help people know God, who God is, and build Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: up that kingdom? Is that what we're doing? Aaron: Mm, yeah. That's yeah, that's i yeah, it I'll see yeah, James Four. Sorry, it's James Four the passage there, but we're a miss for a little while and we we appear and then we're gone. It's like dnfh79c6y5: That's it. Aaron: We're vapor. It's the same connec it's a it's a similar I think James is making a connection there to to Ecclesiastes, where whoever writes Ecclesiastes, some people say it's Solomon, some people say it's some other person, you know, talks about heavel, like that's the the Hebrew word heavel, like, you know, temporary. That's like, all these things that we have are just temporary. They come and they dnfh79c6y5: Mm. Yep. Aaron: go, and that is that is our lives. And I think some people can get really down and depressed about that, and that's I can understand that and and that makes sense and When I think about it, it's like, okay, yeah. But true, if we it if we just see it as we're passing through here, like we're like what you said, we're renting here and we have a home in heaven, we have somewhere that we're gonna be eventually that's eternal with God forever, then it makes dnfh79c6y5: Mm-hmm. Aaron: sense that we should invest and steal with what we have here on this earth for the king for heaven, for the for the eternal things. and yeah, I I I dnfh79c6y5: Correct. Aaron: it's funny, you know, like I think as I've gotten older 'Cause you've known me since yeah for a long time. But you when I was a young teenager, you don't think about those things. When you're at university, you kinda think about that, not really. But yeah, I think I've noticed it as I've gotten older. yeah, having a family and and, you know, trying to you try and go aim for security and, you know, have all these things, which I again I think there's we need a we have to have a bit of that so we can have the ability to help other people and and all those kinds of things. But I like what you said. Those things are never wrong inherently, but it's our perspective and it's our focus. What am I building? dnfh79c6y5: Correct. Aaron: What am I building? What am dnfh79c6y5: Correct. Aaron: I focusing on? and I think that would help our our commitment, that would help how we're using our our our material possessions, our finances. it would help deal with the relationship problems that we have because we go, man, this is this is my brother in Christ, this is my sister in Christ. I need to I need to sort this stuff out. yeah. And I so I think that's a really, really good point. We have to really just reshape our perspective at the end of the day and be humble. Yeah, just just have dnfh79c6y5: Mm-hmm. Aaron: a good sober mindset about what life is and where we're at. So dnfh79c6y5: Yeah. Aaron: no, that's awesome. I really like that. I really like that. dnfh79c6y5: And trying to enjoy it, know, Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: it's about walking the walk, really. mean, Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: you know, all those things, know, being rubber hits the road, being forgiving, you know, when someone's Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: upset you, the whole thing, there's a lot to it. And just joy, the whole aspect of joy, you know, I'm Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: a regular, I'm one of those guys at church that, you know, we're singing and praising God and I'm the guy clapping and singing and I'm also looking around at everybody, you know. Aaron: Yes, you are. dnfh79c6y5: And I'm saying people are like, you know, we're singing, I've got a home in heaven. And I'm saying, you know, like, Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: I've got a home. I Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: was just like, man, where is the joy? Like, and not to say that there's a lot of people not doing that. There's a lot of people smiling and singing. And I think, yep, you've got it. You've got it. You know what mean? But there's, and I think that's where we've got to look out for one another. You know, I've got to look at those things and not just sit back and criticize. I've got to look at people Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: who are not joyful when they're singing, I've got a home in heaven. It's Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: just lip service. You're just mouthing the words. Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: Who's going to go up to that person and say, Hey, how you going? Are Aaron: How are you doing? Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: you okay? Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah, it's a good point 'cause you know, life. Life life's. It gets us and and there are days we feel it. Yeah, the days that we do feel dnfh79c6y5: Absolutely, it's tough. Aaron: that it like, you know, a great week or a great whatever it is, but then there are times where things aren't going well and things are heavy and you are dnfh79c6y5: Yep. Aaron: there out of maybe you've you've really been denying yourself to just to get to church and then you just can't. But that's so dnfh79c6y5: Correct. Aaron: good. That's the point of we need to look at each other and go, Hey, how are you doing? dnfh79c6y5: Correct. Aaron: what's going on and again, maybe it's not in that moment at church particularly on that Sunday, but but afterward, hey, do you wanna catch up or do you wanna are you chatting with someone and and having that care? Realigning our dnfh79c6y5: Mmm. Aaron: focus back to to the eternal things is is the focus. dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, and I'm just hoping that those people have got people, Aaron, do you know what mean? Like, because I'm not necessarily the right person. Like, I know who Aaron: Hmm. dnfh79c6y5: they are, but you know, in that smaller group setting, that they should have somebody there, you know, like, Aaron: That's what we're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: are they being talked to? they, is someone Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: helping them out? Is someone asking those questions? That's my concern, you know, I want to, Aaron: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm. dnfh79c6y5: I'd like to see that we are actively doing that for people. Yeah. Aaron: Yeah, no Yeah, and it's about relationship and being in those deep, deep relationships. Yeah, that's great. That's great. I we're probably gonna wrap up here in this in in a little bit, Tim, but I've really appreciated dnfh79c6y5: Yes. Aaron: it. We'll have to do another one. I've I've said this to every single person because we spend so much time on the story, which I really, really dnfh79c6y5: Take two. Aaron: I love getting people's stories. and yeah, it's just been one of the funnest things about doing this is hearing people's yeah, their journey and and all of that. so maybe we'll talk about some of the other stuff another time in another podcast. But dnfh79c6y5: Yeah, sure. Aaron: one question I'm a asking everyone is where do you feel that God is calling you to be reshaped in at the moment in your life? And there might be a few, but yeah, give me what w what are you thinking? dnfh79c6y5: yeah. Look, it's being reshaped in trust. Like Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: trusting God is such a, like it's a much bigger thing than what I first thought it was. And in all aspects of my life, God, especially being, running my own business as well, and we didn't really touch on a lot of that, but that's Aaron: Yep. We didn't get talking. Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: all good, is, just trusting Him in all situations, in everything. And some of the things are like, whoo, you know, I've been going through some rough times even in the last few days. And I'm just like, Aaron: Right. dnfh79c6y5: God, you know, but it's about, again, it's that relationship with God. It's like getting out, get out, talk to God about it. Let Him know how you're feeling. He already knows, but I think He wants us to express and to learn and to find out where to go with this stuff. But I walk away from prayer with Scripture's in my mind, know, like the other day I went out to pray, I had a lot of worries, a lot of concerns. I thought, this is wrong, I'm not trusting God. You know, I'm too worried about stuff. I'm too concerned about these things. It's not right, you know, I'm not trusting God. Aaron: Mm. dnfh79c6y5: So I went out and prayed and I walked away and as the scripture kept repeating, I was like, in all things, God works for the good of those who love him, in all things, right? Aaron: Yeah, Romans eight. Romans eight twenty eight, yeah. dnfh79c6y5: And I'm thinking, okay, this is for my good, of course, you know, trust him. He knows what he's doing with you, Tim. Like, it's Aaron: Mm-hmm. dnfh79c6y5: okay. Don't be anxious about anything. Jesus says that. Do not be anxious about anything. If I'm feeling anxious, I'm not following the Bible. There's something wrong. Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. dnfh79c6y5: There's something amiss, right? I know these are human emotions and stuff, but God is there to strengthen us and to help us to be able to manage this stuff and to deal with it. So when I'm... very weak in those areas, I go to him and I want that strength, you know, I want to be able to not be anxious, not be worried and to trust him no matter Aaron: Yeah. dnfh79c6y5: what's happening, no matter what the storm is. Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. That's that's that's I think so so relevant because I I think one of the struggles is is sometimes and this what I feel, is that sometimes I try and trust God I feel okay trusting God in like the spiritual context, you know, like like peop character and life and like my you know, my li I don't know, yeah, my spiritual character or whatever it is he wants me to change, or helping someone become a Christian or helping people to grow. But then when it comes to maybe like non spirit it might look like a non-spiritual thing, like a work thing or a you know, a finance thing or something like dnfh79c6y5: Thank Aaron: that. Kind of go, I'll pray a little bit about that, but I want to I need to figure it out myself. Like I need to get it sorted. But I love that what you're saying is no no no. Everything, everything is trust we we trust God in we're called to trust God in every area of our life. It family, dnfh79c6y5: Yep. Aaron: job, business, finances. Going down the street, everything we're called to do is like this incredibly deep reliance on God. And that is a hard thing to do. You dnfh79c6y5: Mm-hmm, you gotta train your mind. Aaron: gotta train your mind, gotta be in prayer, like what you're talking about, have scripture, dnfh79c6y5: Mm-hmm. Yep. Aaron: and just keep keep realigning. That's why I feel like it's it's just you gotta keep realigning yourself. Come back, come back, come dnfh79c6y5: Correct. Correct. Aaron: back, and again have that that focus, that that proper perspective. dnfh79c6y5: Hmm. Aaron: yeah. Now that's amazing. Well, Tim, my brother, we're gonna wrap this up. But thank you so much for for dnfh79c6y5: Ha Aaron: joining us. This has been again, this has been awesome. I've I've learned some things about you that I didn't even know. and but I think just your perspective has been really, really helpful for me. and hopefully for the people listening to this. So really appreciate your time. dnfh79c6y5: thanks, Aaron. Appreciate yours. Thanks for having me on. Aaron: Nah, we'll do we'll have to run it back. We'll definitely have to run it back and talk about some other dnfh79c6y5: Ha ha ha. Aaron: stuff at some point. but yeah, thanks everyone for listening. For all those that are listened, hopefully this has been encouraging, edifying to you. And we'll see you the next one. Peace. dnfh79c6y5: Thank you, bye.