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A Comedic Opera? · Plausibly Live - The Dave Bowman Show Podcast

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History's strange, it's alien, and it won't give us what we
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would like to have. Our third hour of a Tuesday
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morning on the 14th of January 2025.
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Glad you're along with us on WMMB for this Tuesday edition of
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Bill Mick Live. As is our custom on Tuesdays in
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the 8:00 hour, we basically turn it over to Dave Bowman as we get
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another edition of Dave Does History each week and looking
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forward to this every week. And I know you guys appreciate
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what Dave brings to the table for us and the work he puts into
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it. What are we doing today, Dave?
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So it's just a few weeks ago that those of us who are
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football fans watched as Ohio State and Michigan battled yet
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again. Yes.
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By the way, is there a more intense rivalry in college
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football? You know, probably not.
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I mean, they're they're compete. I'm a Mountaineers and Pitt.
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Yeah, they're probably not as many that are as relevant as
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Michigan, Ohio State. These two teams hate each other.
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It's not a dislike, it's a hate. And of course.
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Much the same way. And it erupted into a fight
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after thing. And I can tell you that this
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Ohio versus Michigan conflict extends out.
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I mean, I can assure you since I'm on the Michigan side of
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things, that that that rivalry, that Ohio Michigan rivalry
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extended even into the submarine fleet up here when we would
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regularly beat Ohio in football and basketball and softball and
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those kind of things. It was it's, it's an intense
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rivalry. Do you ever wonder why?
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Good spirited at all? Sometimes, sometimes not.
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Depends on who's playing. This all traces itself back,
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however, to the 1830s, specifically 1835 and 1836, when
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there was a war in the United States of America between the
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state of Ohio and the territory of Michigan.
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And when I say war, I mean it was a war.
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Now, it wasn't the bloodiest war in history.
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In fact, there's only going to be one injury in this entire
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war, and that's when a local sheriff's deputy, or actually he
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was the sheriff. Sorry, no, he was a deputy gets
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stabbed with a pocket knife. That's pretty much it.
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And most of the fighting of this war bill consists of the two
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sides on either side of a river taunting one another.
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And yes, I get the image of Monty Python.
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Where I was going? Taunting each other across the
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river. But it was a political headache
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that really caused Andrew Jackson, who was the president,
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a lot of problems. It wasn't about grand ideas.
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It wasn't about a clashing of empires.
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It was a fight over 468 square miles of land, which was known
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as the Toledo Strip. That's where Toledo, OH sits
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today. It was a narrow ribbon of
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territory along the the modern border.
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And to us, it might seem kind of trivial, but at the time it was
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huge. It was it was economic activity,
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it was political pride, and it was regional power.
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We're talking about in 1835, access to Lake Erie, shipping
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lanes from the rivers and Toledo was a critical piece of
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infrastructure in the rapidly expanding Midwest, and both
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sides believed that control of this area would spell prosperity
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or loss for their futures. So it was not to be shared then,
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it's to be battled over. Yes.
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And indeed, I guess if you wanted to look at the cause of
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this, you could say poor maps, vague legislation and a whole
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lot of ego involved in this bill.
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We're going to talk about one of your favorite subjects.
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Political ignorance is going to be a part of this.
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Now, there's plenty of that to go around.
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It's. Born out of the Northwest
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Ordinance of 1787, which left a lot to be desired.
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By the time Michigan Territory petitions for statehood in 1835,
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Ohio had already claimed the strip as its own.
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But Michigan wanted it. They had a fiery young whose
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nickname was the Boy Governor Guy by the name of Stevens Team.
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Stevens T Mason, who was the governor of the Territory of
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Michigan. Why did they call him the Boy
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Governor, you ask? Because he was 19 years old.
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Really. 19 appointed by President Andrew Jackson to be
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governor of the territory. And all this Although this war
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will see almost no bloodshed, its impact is going to be far
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reaching. Going all the way to a recent
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football game of. Wilderness, Ohio will retain the
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Toledo Strip, but Michigan, even though they'll get the
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consolation prize, may have actually come out on top.
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But in all of that, it was pretty much a comedic opera.
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That is one of those incidents in our history that we call the
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Toledo War. And we get into it in a minute
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on WMMB. Dave, back into this Toledo war.
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What are we thinking? 468 square miles it Yeah, it's
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not that big of a deal, right? You wouldn't think.
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You wouldn't think, but here's the problem.
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The Northwest Ordinance of 1787, they drew a map and they they
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put the boundary but for Ohio and what would become the
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Michigan Territory at quote the southern tip of Lake MI.
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And that tip meaning, let me guess, it's not a closed tip, it
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has a tributary coming off of it?
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Well, it has the Maumee River, but in 1787, map making isn't
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exactly a, you know, precise process.
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And so where that 7th southern tip falls is up for debate.
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In the meantime, along the passage of history, Ohio has
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become a state. Michigan's still a territory.
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And this is important to understand.
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Ohio isn't just a state bill. Ohio is already one of the most
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important states politically speaking.
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Andrew Jackson, President of the United States, like the
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president today, needs Ohio for his re election and so he tends
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to placate Ohio. Meanwhile, Michigan has this 19
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year old governor who is like most 19 year olds who have been
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put in positions of importance, thinks a tad bit more of himself
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than perhaps he should. He doesn't really understand
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that being the 19 year old governor of Michigan Territory
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isn't the same thing as being governor of Ohio.
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And so he kind of he kind of pushes things as well.
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The two sides begin to argue over exactly where this line is.
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Now you need to understand, I'm not going to go to the details
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of it, but there are two surveys done.
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One place is the line in favor of Michigan.
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One place is the line in favor of Ohio.
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Ohio, which has a legislature, passes law saying we accept that
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one, we like that one, and Toledo is there for ours.
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Michigan, of course, still a territory, doesn't necessarily
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like this. And so you begin to have this
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conflict. And this conflict is all based
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in the economics. Remember that the Erie Canal
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over on the New York side has just been opened, and goods are
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beginning to flow here. Michigan has a lot of great
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farmland, particularly in the southern part of Michigan.
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But Ohio understands that if it controls the shipping routes, it
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controls how much money can be made from that.
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And so Ohio really wants to control the shipping routes,
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which includes this. So the two sides begin to bat
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butt heads over this whole thing.
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And of course, Stevens Mason, who is 19, is he's really
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pushing things Bill and he shouldn't.
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Is he screaming things like I know you are, but what am I?
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Probably, but in eighteen 1800s language.
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Yeah. The problem is he's very
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egotistical. He's, you know, I'm, look, I'm
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the, I'm the youngest governor in the history of the United
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States, which of course, at that point is what, 40 years, by the
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way, he's still the youngest governor in the history of the
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United States. But the the point being that he
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just gets a little too big for his britches I think, and that
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ends up with the conflict between him and the Ohio
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governor guy by the name of Robert Lucas, who by the way is
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decent friends with Andrew Jackson.
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And this is going to cause much more head butting and a lot of
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taunting. That's interesting, and we're
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going to explore it more seeing what happened.
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Who? Who'd have thought Toledo would
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be that valuable other than Max Clinger?
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And it's valuable because that's where he's from.
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But other than that, who knows? We get back into Dave Does
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History as we continue on Bill Mick Live.
10:32
You're welcome to follow the WMNB and Bill Mick Live Facebook
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pages. Give those a look.
10:36
We get the phones in our final segment of Dave Does History,
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but we got some ground to cover before then.
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Stick around. Our weekly dive into history.
10:44
Dave Bowman joins us on Bill Mick Live.
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Renewal by Anderson, this our sponsor of the program and we're
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talking the Toledo War and they've given us the lead up to
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that. So Dave, I'm guessing this
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territory, this 400 and whatever 68 square miles encompasses land
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on both sides of the river. More or less it's, you know,
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it's basically where Toledo sits today, the city of Toledo, if
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you've ever been there. It goes, it goes across the
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river, right? The Malmo River, Yeah, it's it
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is there is that. Is that river currently located
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in Ohio? Is it a border between Ohio and?
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Michigan, Ohio. It's currently in Ohio.
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You know what's cool about the Ohio River is along the border
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of West Virginia. The Ohio.
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The West Virginia border goes to the high watermark on the Ohio
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side, so they don't own the Ohio River.
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It should be the West Virginia River.
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Except that it would have been the except that it would have
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been the Virginia River because of at one point, at one point,
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which is interesting because that's where the Ohio governor
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guy by the name of Robert Lucas is, is from.
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He's actually from Shepherdstown, Virginia, which
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is now West Virginia. Went to Ohio when he was a young
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kid, came a farmer and a surveyor, and he serves as an
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officer during the War of 1812 and rises to the rank of
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Brigadier General. So this is a guy who's been
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around. He's served in the House of
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Representatives for Ohio, later serves in the State Senate, and
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of course, becomes the governor of the state of Ohio in 1832.
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And he's got a 19 year old territorial governor trying to
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one up, and that probably doesn't bode well.
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Now, The thing is that he is a he's a Democrat.
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He is also closely aligned with Andrew Jackson.
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But they don't really like each other.
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They respect one another. They agree with one another on
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every policy there is, but somehow or another personally,
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they just don't get along. Wow.
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I I often say this Bill, I get along better with people who
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disagree with me politically than I do with people who agree
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with me. Not sure why that is, but this
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is a great example of that. Meanwhile.
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How our relationship started? A little bit, yeah.
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So meanwhile you got this 19 year old kid in Michigan, which
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is trying to become a state, but they're not quite there yet.
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It's going to be a few years, but as a part of this flexing of
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their muscles to try to become a state, they're going to make an
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issue over this whole Toledo strip thing.
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And it's it just seems insane when you really get down to it,
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because Jackson comes out at first, he his approach is one of
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mediation. His approach is one of let's
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talk about this and it, which is very UN Jackson like.
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If you think about it, this kind of ticks off Robert Lucas, the
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governor of Ohio. Why?
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Why are you mediating with this punk kid from Michigan?
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Who's wrong, by the way? And you would think, since they
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agreed on most things, that Jackson, who saw Ohio as
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politically valuable, would be leaning that way.
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And. He'd think.
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But somehow or another, this initial reaction by Jackson of 1
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of mediation doesn't go well. The governor of Ohio decides,
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look, there's only one way to settle this.
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So he calls out his militia, thinking that if I send 600
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armed troops to the Toledo Strip, one side of the Maumee
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River, and basically taunt the Michiganders, they'll leave us
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alone and go away. And you'd think that's where it
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ends. But it doesn't.
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All right, Dave. So we've got a conflict going
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on. Where?
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How's it moving next? All right, so we have the Ohio
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Michigan, we have the Ohio militia, sorry, deployed.
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And the thinking on the Ohio side is, well, this will this
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will solve this, right? This no problem.
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But the Ohio, the Michigan side with their boy governor decides
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what we can do better than that. So he calls out his militia
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1000, so 400 more than the Ohioans.
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OK. And again, they sit on both
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sides of the river and basically taunt each other.
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Your mother smells of elderberries.
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And your father was a hamster. Yeah.
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But there will come a day, it's in April, that they actually get
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around to fighting one another. Now, this fight isn't much of a
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fight. It's kind of like AI don't know,
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more of a riot I guess than anything else.
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But it does result in the only bloodshed during the war when a
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sheriff's deputy gets stabbed with a pocket knife.
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And that's it. That's it.
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That's that's the extent of the injuries.
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They fire shots in the air. Neither side wanted to fire a
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bullet at anybody. They were just shooting in the
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air to say we can make more noise than you can.
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I guess in the big scheme of things, this is one of the
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things that maybe we don't think about.
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Maybe the soldiers that were there were smarter than the
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politicians who are running this.
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Could be true, or they're entranced in the deep state
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maybe. I mean, I've been to Toledo.
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It's not worth fighting over. There you go.
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But maybe the soldiers saw it differently.
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I don't know. In any case, the battle ends.
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The only battle of the war, the Battle of Phillips Corner, ends
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with the sheriff's deputy getting stabbed.
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That's pretty much it. In the meantime, Jackson has
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decided, well, this is stupid. How can I solve this?
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How can I not just solve this, But how can I solve this in a
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way that's politically advantageous to me?
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Because he is Andrew Jackson. Right.
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I need Ohio, which is a state. I need them on my side.
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Michigan is a territory. They don't have any say in
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anything. So he does what presidents do.
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He fires the 19 year old governor and replaces the
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governor of Michigan with one of his own choosing.
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The poetic justice here would be if this new governor would be
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from Ohio. Well, he wasn't, but he also was
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not well liked in Michigan. In fact, when he showed up, they
17:53
threw vegetables at him because they didn't like the guy.
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But in the meantime, the the war is dragging on and we're now
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into, we're now into getting into 1936, the winter of 3536.
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And something has to give. Something's got to give.
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So what ends up happening is Michigan decides, well, we can't
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win this war. We can't, you know, Jackson's
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against us. We got a new governor.
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It's killing us because we are not a state.
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So we can't get any federal funding.
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We're going broke over Toledo. So they have what they call the
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frostbite convention. Frostbite falls.
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OK. To decide what they're going to
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do, which is in essence, that's it.
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We give up, you keep Toledo, but we want something in return.
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And it's that something that they get in return that makes it
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all worthwhile. When we dig into it in our final
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segment of Dave Does history on this Tuesday morning, we'll also
19:04
let you in with your thoughts and comments at 321-768-1240 or
19:10
the Talkback feature on the iHeartRadio app when we continue
19:13
in moments. Call Bill now, 321-768-1240.
19:19
Renewal by Anderson, our our sponsor Dave Bowman bringing us
19:22
Dave does history as we look at the Toledo war you're 1
19:27
opportunity in the show. This final segment to get
19:29
thoughts in on this and our history topic of the day
19:32
321-768-1240 as Victor Lyle told you, so we're getting to a
19:37
resolution on this war. That was more of a spat.
19:42
Dave, it's where were you going here?
19:45
Congress gets involved. Congress says OK, I.
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Missed one of the buttons? There you go.
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Go ahead. Congress says, OK, we got to
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have a solution. Michigan, you need to stop this.
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You're not a state. You don't have any say in this.
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You need to just stop it. But here's a compromise we're
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willing to give you. And so Michigan meets at the
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Frostbite Convention, so named because it's so cold in Ann
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Arbor. And they agreed to accept the
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condition. Ohio will keep the Toledo Strip.
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Strip. Sorry, they'll keep Toledo.
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Hooray again. I've been to Toledo.
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It's not that exciting. Wasn't there a John Denver song
20:33
years ago Saturday night in Toledo, OH?
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I think there was. That I don't recall.
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I'm stuck on country roads to myself so.
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Right. Which is about Virginia, not
20:43
West Virginia anyway. So but Michigan will get
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something called the Upper Peninsula, which currently isn't
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really part of anything right now in 1836.
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It's just kind of out there. And so Michigan says we'll fine,
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we'll take that. But they're they're not feeling
21:06
very good about it because, you know, again, it's remote, it's
21:10
foresty, it's not Toledo. And they the ultimate solution
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to all this, of course, is that now we can go back to normal.
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Now in a couple of years, Michigan will become a state and
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they will elect as their first governor.
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Guess who? No clue.
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That 19 year old kid, who's now 21, will become the youngest
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actual governor of a state in the history of the United
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States. But of course by this point.
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Deanders like the kid. Well, there aren't that many of
21:45
them, but, yeah. But they do like him.
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So he becomes the youngest governor in the history of the
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United States. Lucas, by the way, down in Ohio.
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He moves on to Iowa and becomes their governor.
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Out there when things move on and everybody's happy, right?
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Well, you would think. The lessons, of course, of all
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this are pretty clear #1 when when we make maps, we should try
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to make them as accurate as possible.
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By not being accurate as possible, we kind of created
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this whole problem. There's a second lesson here
22:25
about the role of politics in conflict and how the political
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power dynamics, rather than fairness, can determine the
22:36
outcome of a of an argument. You could argue that it wasn't
22:39
fair that Michigan didn't get Toledo.
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By the letter of the law, maybe they should have.
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But ultimately they didn't. Instead, they got stuck with
22:50
this piece of land up here called the Upper Peninsula that,
22:54
you know, great consolation prize, right?
23:00
But it turns out, because this is how history works so often,
23:05
that that Upper Peninsula is full of economic resources.
23:14
It's the Greenland of the United States.
23:16
In many ways, in fact, it turns out to be far more valuable than
23:22
Toledo ever was. And of course, much of what
23:27
becomes the economic successes of Michigan are driven by what
23:31
they get in that Upper Peninsula.
23:35
So even though they lost, even though they had to settle for
23:38
the compromise, they actually kind of came out on top, which I
23:44
guess is good, right? Was there any knowledge about
23:48
the resources prior to this or did nobody care?
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Nobody bothered to go away. Cared.
23:53
Nobody cared. Nobody knew what was there.
23:56
I mean, all right, obviously some French trappers had been up
23:59
there and found pelts and that kind of stuff.
24:01
But you know, by this point in history, all that stuff was
24:04
passed. It isn't until later that they
24:07
discover that there's a lot of demand for what they have up
24:11
there. And of course, it benefits
24:18
Michigan greatly. I think the biggest lesson of
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all this though is that there is an importance of being willing
24:27
to compromise and even federal mediation in preventing
24:33
violence. This idea that the federal
24:36
government had a role in all of this, even though that role was
24:40
driven more by politics than by anything else.
24:46
Jackson needed Ohio, he needed to be seen as being in control
24:53
and both he and Lucas, Governor Lucas of Ohio needed to tell
24:58
that 19 year old snotty nosed kid to shut the bleep up.
25:04
There was that role in all of this.
25:07
But at the end of the day, the Toledo War becomes something of
25:12
a comedic opera in the history of the United States.
25:17
It's it's an example of what happens when you have
25:20
disagreements between states. And by the way, we still have
25:24
disagreements between some states about where the borders
25:27
actually are. California, Nevada being a great
25:30
example of all that, but fortunately we've never
25:34
degenerated to that point again where we have two groups of
25:38
militias standing on either side of the river taunting one
25:43
another. Is that not the role of the
25:45
Supreme Court even in determining those disputes
25:48
between the states? Is that not what it was designed
25:50
to do? You'd think, but who knows?
25:56
I mean, there's there's an argument between Georgia and
25:58
Tennessee over where the border is and California and Nevada
26:02
aren't really arguing about it. But when you understand how the
26:06
California border got to where it is with Nevada, Nevada wasn't
26:10
really happy at the time. But again, they were a
26:12
territory, they weren't a state, so couldn't really do anything
26:16
about it. Let's get some time.
26:18
A lot of formation of these states.
26:19
That's exactly what was going on.
26:21
Some of these states were already in existence.
26:25
They had political power and recognition, while the territory
26:29
was just something we're thinking about picking up
26:31
someday. Well, in California's case, it's
26:33
actually fascinating because California basically bullied its
26:37
way. They figured they were the
26:39
biggest and nobody was going to tell them otherwise.
26:41
So they just said Congress said the border is here, and they
26:44
said no, the border is over there.
26:48
And that's where it is today. But they didn't have two armies
26:51
taunting one another, which I guess is a good thing.
26:56
Yep. And we continue in 60 seconds.
26:59
This is Bill Mick Live, 321-768-1240 if you want in with
27:04
Dave Bowman as we wrap up, Dave does history.
27:07
Dave, you think there are other conflicts that could have been
27:11
similarly settled without, you know, anything more than a minor
27:16
knife wound? You know, in the United States,
27:19
if you will, yes. A flesh wound tis just a flesh
27:22
wound tis just tis about a scratch.
27:28
Yeah. You know, they're obviously we
27:31
don't necessarily fight over borders like we used to, I
27:34
guess. And I don't know, I, I'd like to
27:39
think that we're smarter than that.
27:41
And I still think the soldiers were smarter than that, taunting
27:44
each other, Ohio and Michigan, just like they do today when
27:48
Ohio State plays Michigan. But at the end of the day, we
27:51
all go home on pretty much the same team, the American team.
27:56
So that's good, right? Yeah, you will.
27:59
It should be. Anyway, skip to the phones while
28:02
we have an opportunity. Line one you're up on Bill Make
28:04
live. Good morning.
28:06
Good morning, Mario. Cape Canaveral.
28:07
Yeah, Mario, I, I was thinking the Supreme Court, you say they
28:13
didn't enter into this and you know, in 18 O3 the Supreme Court
28:18
basically declared that they were the final arbiter of a, of
28:20
the Constitution and you know, Marbury versus Madison.
28:24
And so I'm thinking to myself, therefore, if they didn't
28:28
intervene, it was not a considered a constitutional
28:31
issue. And I think today it would be.
28:33
What do you think about that? Dave.
28:36
In in principle, yes, it wasn't a constitutional issue because
28:39
Michigan was not a state. So technically it would have
28:43
been the federal government versus Ohio, which is part of
28:46
what Jackson's problem was today.
28:48
Yes, the courts would and regularly do arbitrate those
28:52
issues. We saw a few years ago Texas
28:55
versus is it New Mexico? I think it was primarily.
29:01
Now it's over water issues is where where you see the biggest
29:04
disagreements between states, which makes.
29:06
You guys hit big time on What the Frock this weekend and
29:09
what's going on with water in California and those fires in
29:12
Southern California and why there's no.
29:13
Water there and it's, it's, it's kind of and those are every
29:19
Supreme Court session has cases about states disagreements over
29:23
water, especially in the American Southwest where you got
29:26
Colorado, the Colorado River valleys, those kind of things in
29:32
Ohio or Idaho, Oregon, California.
29:36
But that's where they and but yeah, you're right.
29:38
Now they are constitutional issues because you're dealing
29:40
with States and it has to adjudicate the differences
29:43
between states. Prior to that, Michigan was not
29:45
a state. It was simply a territory, and a
29:49
territory with a 19 year old government governor who nobody
29:53
really cared what he had to say. Until a couple years later when
29:57
he became the real governor of an actual state.
30:00
And even then, they were still not all that big of a deal.
30:04
But but Michigan, I mean, let's face it, Michigan beat Ohio
30:09
State this year. So that's what matters, right?
30:11
Well, apparently it is. And interesting that you say
30:15
this conflict, although not necessarily this particular
30:18
conflict, but the animosity between the two has just stayed
30:23
on that kind of of, of subliminal level that even in
30:28
the military, the, the, the Michigan and the Ohio would go
30:32
after each other, right? And it's, and you, you say to
30:35
yourself again, why do these two pieces don't like each other
30:38
that much? And I'm not even sure that
30:39
people today know about that disagreement between it, but it
30:44
goes all the way back to that. Yeah.
30:46
Yeah, let's get to the phones again.
30:48
Line 1 year old Bill Make live. Good morning.
30:50
Good morning, Bill. Hey, Ed, make it quick, Sir.
30:53
Yes, Sir. Dave, thank you a bunch.
30:55
That was John Denver and we, we appreciate you coming on and
31:01
doing your program and, and thank, thank you and thank Bill
31:04
for having you. I appreciate it.
31:07
Thanks. Yeah.
31:07
Thanks, Liv. We appreciate that.
31:08
And well, Dave and I, through conflict of our own, became good
31:12
friends the year and a half I was in Modesto and managed to
31:17
hang on to that since, well, what 19 years now, Dave?
31:20
That's been kind of an amazing number to think about.
31:23
An entire generation's worth of Dave and Bill, Bill and.
31:26
Absolutely and we'll by Speaking of, we'll continue next Tuesday,
31:30
which will be our first day back next week since we're off for
31:33
the Monday holiday. What do you got in mind for
31:35
Tuesday Day? Next Tuesday we're going to take
31:36
a look at the USS Nautilus, now the first atomic powered
31:43
submarine in history, which of course was named after the Jules
31:46
Verne submarine, which was also atomic powered.
31:49
Was it captain by a guy named Nemo?
31:50
No, it was not, but maybe it should.
31:53
Have had me. Yeah, exactly.
31:55
At least nicknaming that right? Maybe they did That's.
31:59
That's a research item for you for next week.
32:01
Did they nickname the captain Nemo?
32:05
One on nine, I'll get on. That Dave Bellman good job as
32:07
always with Dave does history podcast top of the page at
32:11
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32:15
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32:16
We appreciate them for that. Appreciate you for being here
32:19
and tomorrow your day on the show.
32:21
It's a wide open Wednesday where you take us where you like on
32:25
Bill MC live. We'll see you in the morning.
32:31
Check out more stories from History at Dave Does History
32:34
org.