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AM S2 Ep 11: A Sacred Heart · Attachment Matters Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Attachment Matters.
• 0:03
  This podcast is a conversation between two mothers who are
• 0:07
  passionate about the
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: subject of attachment.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is Rose.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Stoic Mom.
• 0:13
  Both of our families ended up entangled in the confusing world
• 0:17
  of gender and
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: identity,
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: following very different routes to get here.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Through this experience,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: we each discovered how in parenting our children,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: we are offered the opportunity to grow ourselves up.
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  Our hope is to offer greater insight into how to strengthen the
• 0:32
  relationship
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: between parents and their children,
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: despite all odds.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: In this episode,
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  SPEAKER_02: Rose introduces Neufeld's construct of vulnerability,
• 0:43
  the third component necessary to the unfolding of our full
• 0:45
  human potential.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: We talk about the beauty and challenge of our defense mechanisms,
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: how they help us function in the world,
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: and how they can get stuck.
• 0:55
  Rose lists the vulnerable emotions we'll defend against and
• 0:58
  describes the resulting behaviors.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: We also explain why home is where we let our guard down,
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: often lashing out at those we love the most.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: Hello.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, Rose.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: How's it going?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's...
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: We talked about whether we would call this out.
• 1:24
  People might notice that it's a little echoey because I'm
• 1:28
  sitting in a mostly empty house.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we've been moving.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then this is the first time where we took a couple weeks.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's been interesting.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm realizing that I am practicing liminality.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big deal.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm glad that we did it this way.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: I needed,
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: I was excited about the move,
• 1:55
  but I also needed to say goodbye to where we live now and kind
• 2:00
  of make peace with
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  SPEAKER_02: this move.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I've been, it's about an hour away from where we live now.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I've been going like every day.
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  SPEAKER_02: I make a run, you know, and take a load up.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a beautiful drive,
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 2:16
  but it's kind of become this ritual that I'm doing that is a
• 2:20
  little weird for me
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: because it's also not very efficient or,
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: it's messing with my values even a little bit,
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: and I'm having to,
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: Surrender, I think, to something new, to a new chapter.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know about for you and your sort of personality,
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: but for me,
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: moving is a really big deal.
• 2:56
  my sense of home and place and all of the memories that go with
• 3:03
  a physical
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  environment the smells the senses you know all the taste and
• 3:09
  touch the way
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: The lamp that I would have next to my kitchen sink the last time I moved,
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: the way the light would be at night when I'd stay up and do dishes.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was sobbing for days,
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  SPEAKER_00: taking pictures of these images of like home,
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  what home had been for the years that we had lived there and
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  the emotion with it.
• 3:35
  So anyways,
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  I don't know what it's like for you,
• 3:37
  but I know for me it is a really big deal.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's wild.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: I would say, for me, it's not that.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because I've moved so much.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: I, in some ways, feel like I'm, you know, I'm nomadic.
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  SPEAKER_02: So this one's different.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I'm intentionally creating that difference,
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: and being really conscious and present in this move.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Good for you.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Good for you.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: I always want to hold on.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: I always want to hold on to that.
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  SPEAKER_00: The memories.
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  SPEAKER_00: I never want to let go.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's so interesting.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I have always just moved forward.
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  SPEAKER_02: I've always moved forward through life.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I've wondered lately, you know, is there some defense in that?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_02: There's something dependent about that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, hey, that's what we're going to talk about today.
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  SPEAKER_00: And if it were to be, it's there for a reason.
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  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_00: The defense.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would, you know, I would guess.
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  SPEAKER_00: I would imagine.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're also here for when we want to let that guard down.
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  SPEAKER_00: The dance between both.
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  SPEAKER_02: Which takes safety.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
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  SPEAKER_02: To let that guard down.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's what you're doing.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: You mean right now?
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  SPEAKER_02: Is it obvious?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a little tender.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm going to jump right in and sort of welcome everybody back.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome everyone back.
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  We just did three episodes of Q&A and now we are in sort of a
• 6:04
  new transition for
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  SPEAKER_00: season two of the podcast because we're
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  SPEAKER_00: Moving from our focus on maturation, the maturation factor,
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  SPEAKER_00: to looking at vulnerability.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: And in Dr.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Gordon Neufeld's model of,
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: the attachment-based developmental model where we,
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: what are the,
• 6:32
  these kind of spontaneous ways in which development and growth
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  unfolds towards
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  SPEAKER_00: reaching that whole potential?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: he has three factors.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so maturation was the first one we looked at.
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  And folks who've been listening to the podcast will remember
• 6:53
  that maturation in and
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: of itself had those three factors,
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: the three sides to the triangle or three sides to the story,
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: maturation.
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  SPEAKER_00: So now we're zooming back out again,
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  SPEAKER_00: back to those kind of three principal factors,
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  SPEAKER_00: maturation,
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  SPEAKER_00: vulnerability,
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  SPEAKER_00: and attachment.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to shift our focus onto the question of vulnerability.
• 7:27
  So vulnerability,
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  attachment,
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  and maturation are three sides of the story of what?
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  SPEAKER_00: Sort of the unfolding of human potential.
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  SPEAKER_00: The unfolding of human potential.
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  SPEAKER_00: So essentially,
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: just to kind of get started talking about vulnerability,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's almost like we have to talk about its opposite,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is this concept of the difference.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so just from the very most basic sense,
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  it's important for us to understand that the human brain is
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  equipped to tune out
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  SPEAKER_00: what distresses us,
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  SPEAKER_00: that it's equipped to protect us,
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  SPEAKER_00: from that which may hurt us,
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  SPEAKER_00: that which may wound us,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether we're talking about a bad memory,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether we're talking about rejection from someone we love,
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  whether we're talking about vulnerable feelings that could lead
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  to wounding,
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  SPEAKER_00: The brain is equipped to protect us.
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  It's equipped to help us tune out or to block out or to numb or
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  to stop or to
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  SPEAKER_00: filter out that which is too much to bear.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: there's a reason for this.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's a reason for this because, you know, if we think about sort of
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  a symbol of vulnerability being heart,
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  the human heart or a drawing of a heart.
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  SPEAKER_00: What is one of the first things that we know about a heart?
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  SPEAKER_00: It's that it feels, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of what we go to in terms of our emotions, our feelings.
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  SPEAKER_00: And again, from a very basic sense,
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  SPEAKER_00: If we are able to feel,
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  SPEAKER_00: if we have feelings,
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  SPEAKER_00: it is a given that our feelings are going to get hurt.
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  That our hearts,
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  if they are open,
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  if they are soft,
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  will experience pain.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: just some images that come to mind or let's say an icon,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: or a symbol.
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  I think about when I think about the sense of the heart and
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  vulnerability in this
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  SPEAKER_00: Neufeld framework.
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  SPEAKER_00: Immediately what comes to mind to me is,
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  SPEAKER_00: as someone who grew up Catholic,
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  SPEAKER_00: this idea of the sacred heart of Jesus,
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  those images of a heart wearing a crown of thorns or a heart
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  being pierced by a
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  SPEAKER_00: sword and bleeding,
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  SPEAKER_00: just this idea of that expression.
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  SPEAKER_00: Almost like the sacred act of surrender,
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  SPEAKER_00: of sacrifice,
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  SPEAKER_00: of vulnerability for the heart to suffer,
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  SPEAKER_00: for the heart to be wounded in that context,
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  SPEAKER_00: in that religious context.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I also,
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  SPEAKER_00: the other symbol that comes up for me,
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  SPEAKER_00: anyone who,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: like me,
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  SPEAKER_00: I used to be very into tarot,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  in my late 20s and early 30s at the three of swords in the
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  tarot deck is very
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  SPEAKER_00: simple.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's, you know, a heart being pierced by three swords.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of this idea of that card is, you know, a time of pain.
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  SPEAKER_00: a time of suffering,
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  SPEAKER_00: a time of wounding,
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  but there's almost that silver lining around it where it's like
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  this is opening us
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  SPEAKER_00: up to change,
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  SPEAKER_00: to something new that is coming.
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  So those are some of the images that come up when I think of
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  this idea of that
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  SPEAKER_00: heart and our vulnerability to pain.
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  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_02: In the community,
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  we've been talking about the difference between a broken heart
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  and a heart broken
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  SPEAKER_02: open.
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  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
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  SPEAKER_02: Tell me more.
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  SPEAKER_02: That it is an opening, you know.
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  SPEAKER_02: And what does life look and feel like open-hearted?
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  SPEAKER_02: Which I think it's difficult to imagine.
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  SPEAKER_02: Being that open.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's, you know, undefended.
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  SPEAKER_02: Vulnerable.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 12:39
  Experiencing that pain,
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  you know,
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  that you describe with the swords and the heart.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: even like the expression,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm wearing my heart on my sleeve,
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  SPEAKER_00: or I think I've heard this a lot as a mother,
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  SPEAKER_00: as a parent,
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  SPEAKER_00: that when you have children,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's like you wear your heart outside of your body.
• 13:00
  Like your own heart is now open to this most excruciating fear
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  of your own child
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  SPEAKER_00: being hurt,
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  SPEAKER_00: losing a child or,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: something that you couldn't stop.
• 13:16
  from happening to your child you know so yeah that that also
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  just really i feel
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  like i've heard that said and it's always resonated so much
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  with me that it's like
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  okay now my heart is outside of my body because of how much i
• 13:33
  feel um love and the
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: yearning to protect um my child from the wounding of the world
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  SPEAKER_02: Which you can't protect them from.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: It almost seems cruel, doesn't it?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So on the sort of the flip side of this,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: going back to this concept of defenses...
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: the reason why the defenses are there,
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: that the brain is equipped to do this,
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  SPEAKER_00: is because we have to exist in a wounding world.
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  SPEAKER_00: We have to go live in the world every single day and function.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: We have to, you know, for a child, many times they have to go to school.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, school is an incredibly wounding environment.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_00: for so many different reasons,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether it's peers or teachers or some of the adults,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: those feelings of vulnerability,
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: of rejection,
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  of having to potentially fold in your tears if you get hurt or
• 14:40
  your feelings are
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: hurt and you get hurt on the playground.
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  In order for many children to survive during the school day,
• 14:49
  the defenses kick in.
• 14:52
  And maybe the same could be said for adults when we go to the
• 14:55
  workplace or we have
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: to perform like Dr.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Newfeld even speaks to us on his videos of being a therapist,
• 15:03
  having to be a therapist requires defenses because there's so
• 15:07
  much that a client,
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: coming back to you with a scowl or rejection or,
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: you just there's so much that you would take.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
• 15:18
  from that role that it's like you have to have the defenses
• 15:22
  there to tune some of
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: it out and to protect from some of that wounding.
• 15:28
  And the idea,
• 15:29
  whether it's for a child or for an adult,
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  is that the defenses kick in.
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  SPEAKER_00: They help us get through, you know, the wounding world.
• 15:40
  And the key piece of it is that they can come down,
• 15:44
  like,
• 15:44
  once we get home.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: land,
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: in the arms of our loved ones once we,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: that there's an end point of our day.
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  SPEAKER_00: The day ends and we can release.
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  SPEAKER_00: We can come home and let our guard down.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes,
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:05
  what I've heard so many times in the Neufeld Institute and
• 16:09
  different forces I've
• 16:10
  taken as an example of all of this is like the end of the
• 16:13
  school day for a child.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Where all of a sudden they become like a holy terror,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: screaming,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: tantruming,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: releasing,
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: just whether it's aggression or outbursts of tears or,
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: just being,
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 16:29
  But it's like they say over and over and over again,
• 16:32
  this is a good thing.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: I've heard them call it the end of day effect, right?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Is that, yes, the end of day effect that happens when you're safe.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: at least in the context of the Neufeld Institute,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: you just hear this again and again from faculty where it's like,
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: if your child is becoming just releasing all this emotion,
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:00
  at the end of the school day or the end of the sports practice
• 17:03
  or whatever it may
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: be,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: that is a sign that they feel safe with you.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is a gift.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is something that we can look to and say,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: even though it's incredibly difficult to hold all that distress,
• 17:15
  um and not get wound up in reaction to it ourselves it's like
• 17:20
  oh my child feels
• 17:21
  safe with me they had the they have an end to their day and
• 17:25
  they can let it all out
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: i yes i saw my son yesterday um he he moved out
• 17:36
  a couple months ago and just got his first,
• 17:40
  he called it his big boy job.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, well, honey, it's really more of a man job.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he is working full time.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: And that it's,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: he's had a job for years,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: but this is the first time he is working full time.
• 17:56
  And he came over to help his dad move some big furniture
• 18:01
  yesterday after work
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: because we asked him to.
• 18:05
  And it was very generous of him to do that,
• 18:08
  but I could see it when he got here.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: He was...
• 18:14
  ready to go home you know and relax and he made that pretty
• 18:19
  clear and he was a
• 18:20
  little snippy with me you know and I felt my feelings get hurt
• 18:27
  for sure and but I
• 18:30
  did this grappling and I was able to get to that place of oh
• 18:35
  I'm safe right he can
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: he can let it out here because I'm safe and
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's comforting to me to be able to take my place or get myself there.
• 18:51
  But it's hard because my feelings were hurt that he was
• 18:55
  treating me that way.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: Hadn't seen me for a few days.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: I've been saying some snotty things.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: And the stories that I'll tell myself about the things he's saying.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's just so interesting how powerful those stories are,
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: and how helpful this information is,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 19:20
  to be able to check the story I'm telling myself and how it's
• 19:23
  making me feel and
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: then have access to this other story that it's like,
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: that feels much better.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's OK.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he's behaving this way because I'm the safest person.
• 19:33
  in his life right so exactly and then i can soften and then he
• 19:39
  softens you know
• 19:40
  yeah exactly exactly yeah it can be so so hard um because in
• 19:50
  those moments we're
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: just in it you know we're in we're in the you know the emotion and
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm kind of having my own end of day effect.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: Which I think also happens at a lot of households.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: it's not just the child that has been defending all day,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: had to keep those walls up.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, can create a lot of stress and tension.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: You can think about with your spouse too,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: if I've been at work all day performing,
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: performing,
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: performing,
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: performing,
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: and then I finally get home and there's a frustration,
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: something that's not working,
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's just so much easier for us to unleash that exasperation or that,
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: whatever the different things were moved to do by that frustration,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: it just can all come tumbling out.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a reminder, you know, that...
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: it's a reminder that like,
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: this is just part of being human and in relationship to one,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: we're going to do the best we can,
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: but you know,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: having that perspective on your spouse,
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: just like having the perspective of your child,
• 21:08
  it's like also a reminder for me to have that perspective on
• 21:12
  myself and on my
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: spouse and our dynamics.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, um,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: that it's not so weighted by this makes not me a bad person.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: This makes for a bad person because we, you know,
• 21:25
  expressed a bunch of frustration you know just a story this is
• 21:31
  a random story but
• 21:32
  you shared from your day yesterday so right now we're gearing
• 21:37
  up um mid-august uh
• 21:40
  we we've gotten really into these um these town fairs in the
• 21:44
  rural area where we
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: live they're still like old time
• 21:49
  agricultural fairs and their favorite one is this weekend um
• 21:54
  it's in this tiny
• 21:55
  little town and in the hills and um there's no rides you know
• 22:01
  it's not like there's
• 22:02
  a midway with like ferris wheels it's just it's like animals
• 22:07
  and music and food and
• 22:09
  then there's some fun stuff like tractor poles or things
• 22:13
  antique tractor ships
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: something like that
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: But they have the exhibit halls where you can enter,
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: your flowers from your garden or,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: the garlic you grew or art,
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: sprays.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 22:26
  my younger son is doing a bone display and all these animal
• 22:30
  bones that we've found
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: throughout the year.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And they're labeled and...
• 22:35
  So both my partner and I are like invested in our sons doing
• 22:41
  this because they get
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: so excited about it.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: They're so proud.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: We kind of missed the boat last year.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: So this year's our big chance to do it for this fair.
• 22:49
  So I go to work all day yesterday and stuff has to be turned in
• 22:52
  between like 4 and 7.30.
• 22:55
  And so I'm racing home from work and I have to tell myself,
• 22:59
  be prepared for nothing to be ready.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: Just nothing's going to happen.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: But still, it's like, you know.
• 23:10
  even with that preparation and getting home and then we all
• 23:13
  dive in and we're
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: getting everything ready.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then like the last thing to get ready is my buffet.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Cause I want to,
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: I've entered two bouquets,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: orange and yellow bouquet from the garden and a big arrangement,
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm so proud of my flowers.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: I love my garden.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: I am just such a passionate gardener.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And, um,
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I love flowers.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: So we're late.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to miss the, you know, the 730 cutoff.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, the last thing is me.
• 23:49
  And each of my family members does something to just get in the
• 23:53
  way of this.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: Just leave me alone so I can cut my flower.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, just walk away.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Go away.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:01
  um you know like my younger son comes out I've asked him for a
• 24:04
  jar with water and
• 24:05
  he comes out and he takes a sick little water right in front of
• 24:08
  me so you know it's
• 24:15
  just saying like this was my end of the day I'm preparing
• 24:19
  myself for fresh like
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: it's nothing's gonna be ready it's gonna be stressful um
• 24:24
  But,
• 24:24
  you know,
• 24:25
  it's just and then I,
• 24:26
  you know,
• 24:26
  I became,
• 24:27
  you know,
• 24:27
  everyone's against me.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I do my little complaining and pouting and unleashing.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Just give me.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: And we get through it.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, anyways, it's all just to say, yes, we all have the end of day.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: We can try to prepare for these, you know, situations of frustration.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: sometimes it's going to just be,
• 24:49
  we're going to hit a tipping point and something's going to
• 24:51
  come pouring out.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because we're human.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: So anyways, thank you for bearing with me for that story.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: I was just the funny, the funny moments of life.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: And right at that moment,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: it's like my next door neighbor who is incredibly neurotic,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: yells across the street.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Is that your cat?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: I found a dead mouse on the driveway, you know.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually think she got the brunt of my frustration.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: She usually smile and I'm nice.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: I smile at my neighbor.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the wrong time to address the mouse.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, so that's the whole thing.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: We come home.
• 25:39
  we come home and if we feel that sense of safety with our loved
• 25:44
  ones that we can
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: lean on,
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:48
  we're going to be able to let our guard down and sometimes it's
• 25:51
  going to be messy.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be special,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: can be messy with us as adults,
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: but it's for sure going to be messy with Richard.
• 26:02
  Um,
• 26:03
  and so reminding ourselves that that is a sign like we've
• 26:06
  spoken to already that,
• 26:08
  um,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: That they feel safe enough to do so with us.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the problem comes in with the defenses is when they get stunned.
• 26:19
  And one thing that Neufeld talks about just in this reference
• 26:22
  of the end of the day is...
• 26:27
  is that with the onset of digital devices and social media and
• 26:34
  kids having the
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: computer or the cell phones,
• 26:38
  part of how that has impacted them and childhood in general is
• 26:47
  that it extends the
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: school day.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of coming home from the playground,
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: coming home from those peer dynamics,
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: who's in,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: who's out,
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: having to measure up,
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: having,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: to feel valued,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: mattering,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: sameness,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: loyalty,
• 27:09
  all of those dynamics that among the immature and those peer
• 27:12
  relationships at
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: school can be so low of it.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's so hurtful and so wounding.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: now with the digital devices and,
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: the Snapchat and,
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:26
  whatever kids are doing for the rest of the hours of the
• 27:29
  afternoon and into the
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: night,
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: that same dynamic is just extended,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 27:37
  And so,
• 27:37
  you know,
• 27:38
  a lot of times it's possible that kids don't have the end of
• 27:43
  the day.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's interesting.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: And you said they get stuck.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: They're stuck in their defensive mode.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: Is that what you're saying?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because I noticed, too, they don't.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: Does that letdown come?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: And do they feel safe, I guess, to have the letdown?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's like in that whole peer, that dynamic of peer orientation.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: If student or if a child has their pursuit locked into their peers.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: Mm hmm.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's at that pursuit of attachment at the level of the senses,
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: then it's like I have to be on the chat all the time if I'm not in touch,
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: quote unquote,
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: figuratively,
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: but also this is our senses engaged here.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm going to be left out.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to,
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:50
  so it's like even just being instant response to text messages
• 28:55
  or to the phone.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: is like part of that pursuit of the senses.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then it can go farther than that at these other levels as well.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, am I getting the likes?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if I'm not getting the likes, I don't matter.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not valuable.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because that like function is so attachment.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost parasitical.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's not.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be the same as someone who's liked.
• 29:32
  So it's like operating on the sameness and the mattering at
• 29:35
  once,
• 29:35
  you know.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much there,
• 29:38
  but it's like you never can let your guard down because you're
• 29:41
  always trying to
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: measure up.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're always trying.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Versus just letting the guard down and saying, you know.
• 29:53
  expressing that emotion that I'm you know I'm not visioning or
• 29:57
  just letting that
• 29:59
  guard down I'm afraid not yeah are we going to get into how to
• 30:17
  mitigate that some
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: what's the word I'm looking for here
• 30:22
  today or is that uh i don't i don't know i don't i'm not sure
• 30:29
  that we will okay
• 30:31
  okay because what i'm hearing too is just like intense peer
• 30:36
  orientation and i guess
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: my concern is then the the impulse on a parent's part
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: to take the phone away.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right, right, right, right.
• 30:53
  Because it can be scary,
• 30:54
  right,
• 30:55
  to see that and know that that's what's happening.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think thank you for saying that.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think,
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: it was not in my,
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: let's say notes to talk about mitigation today.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I so appreciate you bringing it up because,
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 31:12
  it's like if someone listening upon hearing this becomes
• 31:17
  alarmed that this could be
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: what's happening for their child,
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, there will be an impulse to fix it, which is not a bad thing.
• 31:26
  It's good that you feel responsible and want to do something to
• 31:33
  change this dynamic.
• 31:36
  And I think the thing that has haunted me ever since I tried to
• 31:41
  help my younger
• 31:43
  sister-in-law when she was an adolescent is that the way
• 31:48
  attachment works is
• 31:50
  is that you cannot take something away until you have replaced
• 31:55
  it with something else.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I would imagine that replacement needs to be felt by the person.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Felt.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 32:06
  yes so that's where we kind of go back to some of what we
• 32:10
  talked about sort of over
• 32:12
  and over in season one and and maybe we could kind of put it on
• 32:16
  a bookmark for
• 32:17
  coming back to within a couple episodes but um is how do you
• 32:23
  create those small
• 32:25
  rituals and routines where you're prioritizing the relationship
• 32:29
  to your child so
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: you're
• 32:31
  little by little shifting that dynamic of attachment and
• 32:37
  helping them to depend on you.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not going to be overnight,
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: especially because this has kind of really been in place for a long time.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're really going to have to have a lot of patience.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of patients with the frustration of what's not working,
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: but the caring for your child coming together and saying,
• 33:03
  I'm going to have to really commit to this for the long term
• 33:06
  before I see anything.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if that helps,
• 33:15
  but it's just something to keep in mind that in terms of those
• 33:18
  defenses...
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: For an adolescent,
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: a teenager in our current culture,
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: they have,
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: that social media lock.
• 33:28
  And it's something just for parents to keep in mind that it is
• 33:32
  possible that their
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: defenses are not coming down at the end of the day,
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: that they're staying,
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of kind of being able to let that guard down.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you,
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: each of you is going to be able to kind of hear me say this and go,
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: is this true for my child?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it doesn't, maybe it isn't.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to say that it's,
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: it's an incredibly simple adolescent who has a self,
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: it's,
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: it's certainly going to be different depending on each situation.
• 34:05
  So let's just keep talking a little bit about this idea of the
• 34:09
  defenses getting stuck.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: So again,
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: like I said already,
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: the brain is equipped to defend us from wounding or from,
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: feelings that are too much to bear.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good thing.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: We need it to survive in the world.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem comes in when those defenses get stuck, okay?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: When we can't let our guard down,
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: when there's no end of the day,
• 34:40
  and especially if that no end of the day is prolonged over a
• 34:45
  long period of time,
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: If there's no end of the day today...
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Probably there's going to be tomorrow or next week,
• 34:51
  but for the child or the adult that just never is able to let
• 34:57
  the guard down enough
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: to feel those vulnerable emotions,
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: that's where things can get very problematic.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason why is because...
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: the brain can't both protect us through the defenses,
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: but can't defend us and move us at the same time.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like one or the other.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: So when the defenses are up,
• 35:31
  Essentially,
• 35:32
  if it's an emotional defense,
• 35:34
  we are not going to feel that emotion.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 35:39
  And we're not going to be moved the way that the emotions are
• 35:46
  meant to move us.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: So if we kind of go back to that...
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: The distinctions of this approach,
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: we go way back to the beginning of season two,
• 35:57
  where we talk about kind of contrasting the attachment-based
• 36:00
  developmental model to
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Neufeld model,
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: or the Neufeld approach with,
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: let's say,
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: the behavioral or learning area approaches.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's this idea of like inner springs versus blank slate.
• 36:12
  And so this is really where we start to get more of a grasp on
• 36:18
  this and the
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: importance of those inner springs.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: And if they are numbed or depressed,
• 36:26
  what the implications of that are and how that's going to look
• 36:30
  behaviorally.
• 36:31
  So if we're seeing it from that behavior lens and we start to
• 36:35
  see that a child who
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: is,
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: alarmed,
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: if alarm is there,
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: we should be moved to caution.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: If we're defended against alarm, that we're not going to have conscience.
• 36:51
  So something that's scary or risky is no longer going to cause
• 36:57
  us to stop,
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: to hesitate or to pause.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to dive right into it.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay,
• 37:02
  we're going to go towards danger instead of away from danger or
• 37:08
  hesitate to do
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: something dangerous.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: If we are defended against attachment,
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: attachment,
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: the desire to,
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: be close to someone moves us to care,
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: moves us to care about something or someone.
• 37:31
  If we're defended against attaching,
• 37:35
  we are no longer going to be moved to care.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Caring isn't intellectual.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: Caring isn't rational.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: comes from that inner spring of these feelings of attachment, okay?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: If we are defended against shame,
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: and now shame is not like a good thing per se,
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: but what Dr.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: Neufeld talks about is that shame should move us to want to hide,
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: to want to cover up,
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: to want,
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: to conceal,
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: okay?
• 38:08
  And if we're defended against that vulnerable emotion,
• 38:12
  we are not going to conceal anything.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: This basically overexposed.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: Exhibition, yeah.
• 38:21
  Yeah,
• 38:22
  when we would kind of expect someone to want to be more
• 38:27
  concealing,
• 38:28
  right,
• 38:28
  to cover up.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then just,
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: another example,
• 38:36
  and this I think becomes so important with our dynamics with
• 38:42
  our children as
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: parents,
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: is that if we become defended against depending...
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: The child becomes dependent against depending.
• 38:53
  We know we're defended against the sight in the sense of being
• 38:55
  able to lean.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what moves us to trust.
• 39:03
  So kind of like that loss of trust is when we no longer feel we
• 39:09
  depend,
• 39:10
  right?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: While we become defended against this vulnerable feeling of depending.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: So those are just some examples of like,
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:20
  seeing the implications of becoming defended against these
• 39:23
  emotions or these
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: instincts.
• 39:25
  And then what we're not going to see in some,
• 39:28
  well,
• 39:28
  we will see that as a behavior,
• 39:31
  right?
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I saw you nodding.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I just want to stop and just hear what you were nodding about.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, there's a lot in here.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I have a question just yet.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: I will say of these, the one that landed for myself, I'd say two.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: I've been curious about whether I was defended against alarm.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: I would say I had a lot of risky behavior in my life.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_02: youth and young adulthood.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we talked about that before where I was like,
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: hmm,
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: it's weird how I never used the word courageous,
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: but more risk tolerant is how I saw myself.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_02: And was that maybe more of this defended against alarm thing, right?
• 40:43
  The other one,
• 40:44
  though,
• 40:44
  that really landed for me was defended against depending on
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:54
  And I think I've kind of come to recognize that as a core thing
• 40:58
  for me,
• 40:59
  is trust.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I've heard this with others, too.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: Needy.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: Needy is such a turnoff.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: To be needy.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I do see, you know, I've...
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: considered myself a hyper-independent person.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 41:24
  and it's been in recent years where I have done a lot of work
• 41:27
  on this and allowed
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: myself to ask for help and to recognize what a gift it is to help,
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: you know.
• 41:38
  But it's taken some,
• 41:39
  I would say it's taken some cognitive work on my board to get
• 41:44
  there.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just interesting.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: I guess the other thing I would,
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: where my mind often goes,
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: I know we're always,
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: you're coming with the parent-child thing.
• 42:02
  dynamic and often viewing this through the child's experience
• 42:07
  when it comes to the
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: defenses,
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: but I also can't help,
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: my mind tends to go to the parents and where their defenses are.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: And are they recognizing their defenses,
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 42:20
  and can they hear themselves in these descriptions so that they
• 42:23
  know where they,
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: where...
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: where their spots are, right?
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, where their work is.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think both are so important.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Both are so important.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like we balance each other well in that way.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: Those two perspectives coming together,
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: because they're both two sides of that coin of the relationship.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Parent is perceiving, reacting to the child.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 43:00
  And the insight into the child,
• 43:02
  and then there is the layer of insight into yourself.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think without that, you know, like, this is the growing up.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 43:14
  That we need to do for ourselves to be an alpha in the
• 43:20
  relationship with our children.
• 43:24
  Because if we're stuck in our defenses,
• 43:28
  we're not going to be able to be that.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting because...
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: it seems almost like a paradox to me.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it actually is or not,
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: when we're in that alpha mode,
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: part of that is that performative mode.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we talk about going to war, you know, like,
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's,
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 44:05
  Newford will use examples of like when he does his classes and
• 44:08
  he's up there
• 44:09
  speaking for hours and hours and hours doing a lecture or that
• 44:13
  he is an alpha and
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: therefore he's not going to feel this hunger.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: He's not going to feel he has to go to the bathroom,
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: and we'll get to this in just a second.
• 44:22
  Kind of the next thing I want to talk about is like,
• 44:24
  what are the mechanisms of the defenseless?
• 44:27
  ways that they okay um play out but so when we're in that alpha
• 44:32
  mode it's almost
• 44:33
  like we are by its nature we are going to have more our
• 44:41
  defenses in the sense that
• 44:43
  our focus we postpone what what our needs are in order to
• 44:51
  provide for the needs of
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: another
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that on the one hand, I feel like that's important to understand.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: And on the other hand, I hear what you're saying where it's like,
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: we too need to have that ability to depend.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we can have the sake of finding our tears, expressing our emotions.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: so it's almost,
• 45:15
  I guess it gets back to that concept of that cascading care
• 45:18
  that we felt he has.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: that you speak to so often,
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: love,
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: held and never alone,
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: that they are in,
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: in relationship to one another,
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: that yes.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: where we find our dependency needs being filled,
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: it's not going to be in our dynamic with our child,
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: but like at the layer above that,
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: if we want to speak about it that way,
• 45:42
  like who are we being held by or what are we being held by so
• 45:46
  that we can hold the
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: more vulnerable one in our own care,
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I think, you know, my mind goes back to the word stuck, right?
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: are you stuck in your defenses because,
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: or is there somewhere your needs,
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: like you said,
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: are being met,
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: Where you get to have your end of day.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, because I think otherwise it's hard to see.
• 46:20
  And then you do end up showing up in the relationship with your
• 46:23
  child in this seeker mode.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right, right, absolutely.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: So in terms of just,
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:35
  listing out some more of the vulnerable feelings that defenses
• 46:39
  would easily get,
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: triggered to protect us from,
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: we can talk about like shyness and embarrassment.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: These are vulnerable feelings to be embarrassed.
• 46:53
  Um,
• 46:53
  Neufeld talks about this research and this is probably like 10
• 46:56
  years ago because this,
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: some of the videos are quite dated,
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: but that linked,
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: a lack of feeling embarrassed to a lack of empathy.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you think about this idea that,
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: if a child or an adult is able to feel embarrassment,
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: very vulnerable,
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: therefore we are soft enough to be able to show care for consideration.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: If we're defended against that,
• 47:29
  it's going to kind of be correlated with also a defense against
• 47:35
  that vulnerable
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: feeling of attachment that leads to us being able to show care.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: So another would be futility.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about this in our adaptation or adaptive process episodes,
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: that feeling of futility,
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: kind of like embarrassment almost.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the surrender to, you know,
• 47:57
  loss or grief meant a very vulnerable feeling that one can
• 48:08
  easily become defended against.
• 48:13
  Even its opposite,
• 48:16
  this idea of fulfillment or joy can also be vulnerable.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: Letting down our guard enough to just feel
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: The violation of something that's really good.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think I see that a lot.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: I see a lot of defense against joy.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:40
  And I think about whenever my partner jokes with me that
• 48:44
  whenever I think I'm very
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: excited about something,
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: I get this look on my face like I'm apprehensive or upset.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just, you know, it's a silly little thing.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't feel like my defenses are stopped.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thank goodness at this time in my life.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: But,
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: it's just this instinctual way of protecting myself from just,
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: surrendering to like this really,
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: really good thing.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the look on my face is like,
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: that caution of like,
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: maybe it won't really be true.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe,
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: that if I give myself to that,
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: fulfillment or excitement,
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: that feeling can be hurt,
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: that it can be taken away.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's it.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: I've wondered if that's what it is,
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: is that,
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: all of joy is temporary,
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_02: and I think it's that temporary nature of it that we're defended against.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's not going to stay joyful.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so coming down off the joy, I think, is what scares us.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: Again, if we feel our feelings can be hurt, if we feel the joy.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: We can experience the wounding.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think disappointment is a big one.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think we are so defended against disappointment.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: And yet experience it so much because of our expectations.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, as you might be able to guess, dependence.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that's very vulnerable.
• 50:32
  Boy,
• 50:32
  oh boy,
• 50:33
  if you allow yourself to depend on someone and they let you
• 50:36
  down.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: Or they betray that,
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: the trust or,
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: who buddies that is a vulnerable,
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: vulnerable feeling.
• 50:49
  to be able to let our guard down enough to lean on someone
• 50:51
  else,
• 50:52
  to depend.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of the interesting,
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: sort of flip side of that,
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: another vulnerable feeling is the feeling of responsibility.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: And, yeah, that's somewhere else.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: I can relate to that one, too.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: For somebody else.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's,
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciated seeing that because,
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: and again,
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: this is my perspective vis-a-vis my child.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I,
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: with my older child especially,
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: I just wish he'd feel more response.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, sometimes I get so frustrated.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: with I, with what I perceive as a lack of responsibility.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like going over this material again, helps me too.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: So much.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: Part of what we're going to talk about next is like sensitivity.
• 51:49
  It's kind of,
• 51:51
  I would love maybe even next episode,
• 51:53
  just take a lot of time around sensitivity.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: But, um,
• 52:00
  Well,
• 52:00
  I'm having a different perspective now on the responsibility
• 52:05
  thing.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: What is it?
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_02: And the defendant against responsibility.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_02: So is that defended against?
• 52:13
  What's coming to my mind is the difference between
• 52:15
  responsibility and blame.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_02: And is that is that the defense?
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: Is feeling like some feeling like something is your fault.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: and again,
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: there's so many people out here in the world where we can hear different
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: perspectives on this from Neufeld's construct around responsibility.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: If we feel responsibility, we will feel guilt.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so guilt is just we are allergic to guilt in our.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: In the United States.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so he talks about publishing.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hold on to your kids in the United States because he's Canadian.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: And how the publisher read the book.
• 53:07
  She was a mother and she was took him into her office and
• 53:10
  started screaming.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: She was like, your book made me feel guilty.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_02: I've heard it made me feel guilty.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_02: I've had a lot of mumps,
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_02: and I've said when I've recommended it,
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_02: this book is going to make you feel things,
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's going to be a difficult read.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_02: And again,
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_02: like there's,
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'd like to tease this out if we can,
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_02: if we've got a little time,
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: because I think this is really important,
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_02: the difference between responsibility and blame,
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_02: and that guilt is a good thing.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_02: And that once you've
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_02: And once you can wrap your head and heart around that,
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: you know what I mean,
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_02: or soften that defense,
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_02: however you can get there,
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: it is the key to your freedom.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: The key.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because now you can do something.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:13
  Before,
• 54:14
  when you're defended against it and the fault is out there,
• 54:19
  right?
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_02: You're helpless.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: You're a victim.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: But it is so threatening, you know, and I absolutely get it.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, it truly is.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: I see it as the key to your freedom.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_02: It will free you.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate what you're saying so much.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: And what comes to mind is actually a,
• 54:47
  and I can't remember if we've said this on a past podcast or
• 54:50
  just in our kind of
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: individual conversations,
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: non-recorded conversations,
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: This is a tool that helped me from my former therapist,
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: and it's the drama triangle,
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: where there's three points on it.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's like once you get on the triangle,
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: quote unquote,
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: there's three different roles,
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: let's say,
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: that you only have three options.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're either going to be the victim, the perpetrator, or the savior.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: quote unquote,
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: on the triangle,
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: kind of riding that dynamic,
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: that energy,
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: you can play,
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: you can just ping pong between,
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: but your whole reality,
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: your whole perspective on reality has to fit this.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: someone is with you or against you,
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: if you see these victims,
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: then you're trying,
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: are you saving them,
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: lose the perpetrator?
• 55:50
  And what she always said,
• 55:51
  and this could be hours and hours of conversation,
• 55:53
  helped me a lot.
• 55:54
  I think I assimilated it so much that I just kind of take it
• 55:58
  for granted at this point.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: But it really helped me for a period of my life.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: It was a huge growing point for me to understand this dynamic.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: And what she always said, I'd always go, how do you get off the triangle?
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the one thing you need to do is to take responsibility.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 56:20
  The other thing that I'm thinking of as I'm trying to tease out
• 56:23
  the difference
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_02: again between blame and responsibility,
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: the traffic circle comes to mind.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm thinking responsibility is the surrender.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_02: But if you are defended against responsibility,
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_02: you're going to bypass the surrender the adaptation off-ramp.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: And you go to blame.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then blame is kind of that externalizing.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: But you can blame yourself.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:00
  Well,
• 57:01
  teasing this out,
• 57:02
  we talked about this,
• 57:03
  I believe,
• 57:03
  last episode in the Q&A account.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: The Neufeld construct is the following.
• 57:11
  We experience frustration as a primal emotion when something's
• 57:15
  not working because
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: we're facing some sort of separation.
• 57:17
  So if something is not working that we care about,
• 57:21
  the frustration is moving us.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's the primal level.
• 57:24
  The secondary level,
• 57:25
  which is the cognitive,
• 57:27
  is that we are going to assign blame.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then it depends on where we're assigning it.
• 57:34
  It's going to lead us to either anger or blaming someone else
• 57:39
  or something else.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's something inherently wrong with me.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like a level deeper than guilt.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, it's not just that I made a mistake, right?
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's my fault.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's my fault because I am inherently wrong.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm wrong.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm bad.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not a perfect construct.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's helpful.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_00: But so and these words are so charged in culture to say,
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: what's the difference between blame and responsibility?
• 58:15
  When I hear you say that,
• 58:16
  I think what you're talking about is externalizing blame.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: it's something else outside of me that is to blame my circumstances,
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: my situation,
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: my reality.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_02: And my icky feelings.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: My discomfort.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: in theory,
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: in this construct of Newfoundland,
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: if we blame ourselves,
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: we're going to feel guilt.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: But the tricky thing is,
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: is that it doesn't have to be this self-eviscerating,
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: heavy,
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: entrenched self-blame.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's simply like, what was my part?
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_02: What was my role in the dynamic?
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's the responsibility aspect.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: We may still feel guilt, but it's not a bad thing.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: It just means I'm taking on my part.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so therefore I feel some guilt.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's what I can do.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it's taking responsibility for your state.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_02: So that you have some agency and something you can do to change it.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: Then it's like, what is within my control?
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I do.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_00: How can I change?
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why I associated it with that second offer of adaptability.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_02: But maybe it's a little bit different.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_02: But I know.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_02: But I've always.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: I loved how you put that.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that was super insightful.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:03
  And I do think it maps as an overlay in understanding some of
• 1:00:08
  the emotional
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: experience of this story.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_00: Moving through that traffic circle.
• 1:00:16
  Because if we're externally blaming,
• 1:00:18
  it makes sense that we're going towards that aggression.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_00: And, of course, it can be turned on self as well.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: But, yeah, it does have that potential to just be deflecting it outwards.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_02: Which is a miserable place to be.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because now it's out of your hands.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_02: Other than to attack the thing that is causing the pain.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, over and over and over.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_00: So this is good.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad we're taking the time.
• 1:01:00
  And as I was preparing for today,
• 1:01:01
  I was like,
• 1:01:02
  we're going to need a few sessions on this.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: I need a few sessions.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I think...
• 1:01:10
  You know,
• 1:01:10
  there's so much more to say,
• 1:01:11
  but I think we can,
• 1:01:13
  you know,
• 1:01:13
  kind of start to wrap up.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: we've talked,
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe just to kind of give a teaser for where we might go next,
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: if that makes sense,
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: is just...
• 1:01:27
  We've talked a lot about this emotional aspect,
• 1:01:32
  these vulnerable feelings.
• 1:01:34
  And I just want to kind of set us up for where we're going to
• 1:01:38
  go in our next
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_00: conversation on this,
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: hopefully,
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: is this idea that there are
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_00: Number one,
• 1:01:48
  that the defenses in and of themselves are sort of mechanistic
• 1:01:54
  in the sense that
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: the brain kicks them in.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: They are not what Neufeld would call volitional.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: We're not making a choice when our defenses are erected or,
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: boom,
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: all of a sudden they're,
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:02:09
  if we think about like a castle with a drawbridge and that
• 1:02:13
  drawbridge is just going
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_00: to go boom up,
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: closing that door.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it's how the system works.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's how our brains are designed.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: Wounding is too much to bear.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_00: Not volition.
• 1:02:28
  At the same time,
• 1:02:30
  at the same time,
• 1:02:31
  we can align our will with the defense.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not going to talk about it.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to think about it.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: So we can have both.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: Don't tie.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:02:42
  the mechanism kicking in that's kind of out of our conscious
• 1:02:46
  control and our
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_00: conscious control.
• 1:02:50
  effort to avoid or protect or ignore,
• 1:02:58
  numb out,
• 1:02:59
  you know,
• 1:02:59
  so they can go hand in
• 1:03:03
  And then the last just kind of framework that I am excited to
• 1:03:07
  dig into more within
• 1:03:09
  the next opportunity we have is that there are what he would
• 1:03:14
  refer to as three
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: different mechanisms of defense.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we've been talking about them, I think, this whole episode.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: But so at that point,
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: I want to name them to sort of bring us full circle to,
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: this this.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: To have a place to categorize some of what we've been talking about.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_00: There's the emotional defenses.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's straightforward.
• 1:03:38
  That's when the brain kicks in defenses to protect us from
• 1:03:41
  those vulnerable feelings.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked a lot about that today.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's also perceptual defense.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when our attention gets involved.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this can give us a lot of fruit for discussion.
• 1:03:59
  But this is one way that a child potentially can be perceived
• 1:04:05
  as ADHD because of
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: the manifestation of this.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_00: When something that we, if we pay attention to something,
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_00: It will cause us to feel that vulnerability.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we go the opposite direction.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_00: It can be perceived as a lack of attention.
• 1:04:23
  The teacher draws your attention to something and you don't
• 1:04:26
  want to be exposed.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to look out the window.
• 1:04:29
  You're going to look the other way to sort of build up that
• 1:04:33
  perceptual defense.
• 1:04:37
  this is what we might see in a child who this happens with my
• 1:04:41
  son all the time
• 1:04:42
  which is why this material helps me so much to be a better man
• 1:04:48
  when he's trying to
• 1:04:49
  be funny and it rubs my spouse's eye the wrong way especially
• 1:04:53
  at bedtime when we're
• 1:04:53
  tired and his goofiness is just getting bigger and bigger and
• 1:04:57
  bigger it's totally
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: going wrong we then are like annoyed and put off
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_00: Which is wounding.
• 1:05:08
  And so then that perceptual difference just locks in and he
• 1:05:11
  goes for more.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it just gets bigger and goofier and more off-putting.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it just kind of snowballes.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_00: And when I am reminded about this perceptional defense,
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: it's because he's trying to,
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_00: he's vulnerable in his wanting to be funny.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_00: He so badly wants to be funny.
• 1:05:30
  The fact that he's being rejected in that is just making it so
• 1:05:35
  much worse.
• 1:05:36
  Because the more the brain perceives the wounding,
• 1:05:39
  the more he's going to do the behavior.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's just kind of like a self...
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_00: Cycle.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_00: Cycle.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that's another perceptual defense.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we can talk more about that next time.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_02: Go ahead.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_02: No,
• 1:06:01
  I'm just looking forward to talking more about that because I'm
• 1:06:03
  not sure that I'm
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_02: quite getting it.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm keenly interested as you're describing it.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I feel like I know what it looks like.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_02: I know what it feels like.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_02: I want to understand it better.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 1:06:16
  And then the last on that list of three mechanisms of defense
• 1:06:20
  would be attachment defenses.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the one that just makes my heart ache.
• 1:06:29
  Because when we go back to like season one and all of the
• 1:06:32
  talking we're doing about those...
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_00: Six stages of attachment,
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_00: the vulnerability involved in,
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: depending and leading one another,
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: in pursuing intimacy and closeness.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_00: When the brain kicks in these attachment defenses,
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_00: we are moved to the absolute goodness in terms.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:06:57
  When that,
• 1:06:58
  um,
• 1:07:00
  and this would include our instincts for sophosis and to
• 1:07:04
  depend.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_02: And this is where,
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_02: the imagery that you described at the beginning,
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_02: of the wounded heart.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_02: What I see here, the image that comes to mind is the shielded heart.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_02: The one that has the armor,
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_02: and it's just,
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_02: you can't even see any red because of all of the armor around it.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:07:35
  exactly yeah so more on this to come filtering out that which
• 1:07:51
  is too much to bear
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_02: that's right that's right that's right
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just going to mention this.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_00: I know we started our conversation today before we were recording.
• 1:08:06
  You were sharing something with me about Andrea Gibson and her
• 1:08:12
  whole story,
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_00: something that was kind of moving and out there in the world,
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_00: more in maybe like one of the more woke or leftist circles,
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_00: But,
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_00: her story being one of someone who once she faced her own mortality,
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_00: she was able to kind of let down the armor.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_00: Some significant alarm.
• 1:08:37
  And this is kind of what our greatest vulnerability,
• 1:08:42
  right,
• 1:08:42
  is that sense of mortality.
• 1:08:46
  And so I just wanted to bring that up because it brings me kind
• 1:08:49
  of to that,
• 1:08:51
  a little bit of what you had shared as maybe we had our
• 1:08:53
  conversation today.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_00: During which we were both crying.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and the way she describes it was safety.
• 1:09:08
  She was able to let that guard down because she suddenly felt
• 1:09:12
  safe in the universe.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_02: Adored and cherished.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_02: And held.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_02: To me, that sounds like attachment.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_02: Healthy attachment.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_00: Loved, held, and never alone.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we're all yearning for.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_02: We hope you take something of value from our conversation today.
• 1:09:46
  Be sure to subscribe to our Substack to have new episodes
• 1:09:49
  delivered to your inbox.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget that as a paid subscriber,
• 1:09:53
  you have access to more resources and can help us to shape the
• 1:09:57
  conversation.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_02: As always,
• 1:09:59
  we encourage you to share your feedback and takeaways in the
• 1:10:02
  comments and hope you
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_02: will join us for the next episode of Attachment Matters.