Latest / Todd's World / Tower of Babel: Pride, Disobedience & Building Our Way to God | Beers With Jesus (Genesis 11)
Transcript
- Cousin Trevor: One is they were raised up in pride, right? So that's Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cousin Trevor: been one central sin that has been always plagued humanity since the beginning, right? Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: And number two is disobedience, right? Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: They didn't want to scatter, they didn't want to fill the whole earth, they wanted to remain together so that they could make a name for themselves. Todd: Yeah, I think what they're leaning into is the independence of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Like they they wanted they wanted to reach God on their own terms and not Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: have to wait for God on his terms. Yo, it's Carrie: on their terms. That's interesting. But Todd: And through and through their own effort. Yo, it's Carrie: Well, right. Like Trevor said, it's pride. I mean, they're just concerned with you know, with the accomplishment of it. Todd: Welcome everyone to Todd's World Beers With Jesus. Thank you for joining us. We're back on schedule, which I'm excited about. We were we had we took, I don't know, three weeks off or something. And we have a guest. Carrie's with me, of course. Carrie's always here. How are you doing, Carrie? Yo, it's Carrie: Hello. Great. How about you? Cousin Trevor: Carrie. Todd: Good. You're very Martha Stewartish today. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, I'm still in my work clothes. Todd: And we have cousin Trevor on the line from sunny sunny Yo, it's Carrie: Yay. Todd: Sarasota, right? Ish. Cousin Trevor: Beautiful Sarasota ish Florida. Yeah. Todd: There you go. Yo, it's Carrie: There's soda ish. That's a mouthful. Todd: Couple of Floridians and a Michigander, as they say. Yo, it's Carrie: Michigander. Todd: How you doing guys? Good to see ya. Trevor, how you been? Yeah, it's been a while since you were on. Yeah. Cousin Trevor: Doing great. Very good. Thanks. It has. But this is what we've been waiting for, the Tower of Babel. Yo, it's Carrie: You're excited about this? I'm so glad. Todd: Trevor was excited. He wanted to come on. He said when you're when you do the Tower of Babel, have me on. Yo, it's Carrie: He has something to add. Cousin Trevor: That's right. I can babble. Todd: He has something significant, Cousin Trevor: Despero. Todd: so yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: I'm glad. Todd: The and we use of course the message. Now that's a stretch for Trevor because he's it's a bit he's a bit traditional probably. You probably don't Cousin Trevor: Yeah. Todd: even have a message, do you? Cousin Trevor: I don't. Can you find that in a leather balance position or not? Todd: Yeah. I don't know, maybe. Yo, it's Carrie: Is there a little Todd: I have a hardcover, but I don't have a a leather because I like Cousin Trevor: Hmm. Todd: I actually prefer the hardcovers, even though this one I'm using right now is just a little paperback. But it's large print. Yo, it's Carrie: Trevor. Did you say it doesn't count unless it's leather bound? Is that what Cousin Trevor: That's that's great. Todd: Will always says it's nice commentary. Cousin Trevor: Yeah. I wish Will was here right now. Yo, it's Carrie: That's funny. I know. Todd: I d you know, I tried to get Will on and he was he was indisposed, I don't know what. He's he's retired from podcasting largely. Yo, it's Carrie: I would like I would like to have heard his thoughts on this. Mm-hmm. But I'm excited Trevor's here. Todd: Yeah. Trevor, have you been listening you've been listening to what we've been talking about in Genesis? Cousin Trevor: I have, I have. I not as faithfully as I should have, I'm sorry. But but I have. Todd: Right. Well, if you miss anything it's not as faithfully as you should. What do you think? What have you heard? What do you think? Any opinions? Cousin Trevor: That's right. No, but I enjoy the Genesis and the Flood. I I just love the commentary and I love it. I love I love that it's accessible that we can use our minds and creativity to fill in some of those spots that aren't as black and white. Yeah, Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: That's cool. Cousin Trevor: kind of you know, something that if you ever talk to Chat GPT, it it always reminds you that it's not you know, you you're g you're in dear dangerous territory. You're almost in heresy land. I know. Todd: really? That's a groc Groc tries to do that to me once in a while. Cousin Trevor: Really? It's it's kinda weird. You think they'd love that territory. Yo, it's Carrie: I'm gonna say Chat GPT is like in dangerous heresy territory. I don't know why we're talking to Chat GPT or grok about the Bible. Todd: Grock. Yo, it's Carrie: Call me crazy. Todd: You know, it's surprising how I like bouncing things off Grok. As much for myself as writing it out. I as I'm thinking it out. I don't pay all that much attention. Once in a while as I but it's not like it's more of a it's more of a monologue than a dialogue. But at least I get Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: some feedback and I'm getting feedback from whatever constitutes the broad reach of whatever Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Grok was trained on. But you know and so Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, there's just a lot of there's a lot of wild stuff out there. Todd: A lot of what I'm after is history. I like it for research. I like to know kind of the history. So I'll Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: ask it if I'm kind of pursuing a certain kind of angle on a passage. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: I'll I'll just ask if if there's anything out there that I, you know that where where this is at or or whatever. If I haven't heard about it myself. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: The limbs that I so often go out on. Right, Trevor. Yo, it's Carrie: So my Yeah. So my son who's a little anti chat GPT said if you if you look something up, then scroll down past the past the answer. Or maybe it's the AI overview on Google and it will show you like where it's coming from. He's Todd: Okay. Yo, it's Carrie: like, then go then go find it. Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. He doesn't Todd: I don't know. Yo, it's Carrie: he doesn't want us to get lazy, but Trevor, we appreciate listening. Hopefully you'll keep listening, even though you've just discovered we don't have leatherbound Bibles that we're reading from. But Todd: Yeah. I mean I own some Cousin Trevor: I've I've no Todd: leather bone Bibles, just they're not very good. Yo, it's Carrie: I do. Todd: They're not as good as the message. But you know, I like the narrative twist of the message. Yo, it's Carrie: I have a yeah I got one. Todd: That that really is I just like the narrative style. Yeah. And so Cousin Trevor: You're a storyteller. Again. Todd: that it resonates with me. You know what I mean? And I think it resonates with what we do on here, which is try to focus on the stories. And what we have today really, I think Tower of Babel and see that this is one where people would kinda think Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: of it as not like that big of a story, I think sometimes they kinda it's not a lot to talk about or whatever. But to me, all this is like all these foundational stories kind of at the at the beginning of Genesis, like the flood and like the Nephilim, even if there's only four verses, but we're talking about things that had civilization wide mass impacts. You know what I mean? And this is another one. Like these are foundational Yo, it's Carrie: no. Todd: stories, I think. So I feel like they're Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: kind of important. What do you think, Trevor? Cousin Trevor: Well absolutely. Absolutely. Just ready to get into it. Let's read. Todd: All right, let's read. Carrie's reading today. she's gonna pick up Yo, it's Carrie: All right. Okay. We're gonna Todd: just a couple verses out of ten, and then the first Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: little part of eleven. Yo, it's Carrie: This yeah, we normally don't skip anything, but chapter ten is the entire family tree of Noah's sons. And if you're really into genealogy, we just we we we encourage you to go and Todd: Carrie's not in for the humiliation ritual of reading all the names. Yo, it's Carrie: read that or listen to it read online. But no, we're just gonna we're gonna skip ahead just a teensy bit and then we're gonna Todd: Yes. Yo, it's Carrie: skip a section. Okay. Starting here. The sons of Rama, is that where we are? Sheba, Dedan, Kush Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: also had Nimrod. He was the first great warrior on earth. He was a great hunter before God. There was a saying, like Nimrod, a great hunter before God. His kingdom got its start with Babel. Then Eric, Akad, and Kalna in the cut in the country of Shinar. From there he went up to Ashur and built Nineveh. Rehobeth Ir Kala and Rezen between Nineveh and the great city Kala. Then we're gonna, then we're jumping down. Okay. There we go. Todd: Yeah, I hit just the very last thirty two. Yo, it's Carrie: These, yeah, I'm gonna go just one before that. These are the descendants of Shem by family, language, country, and nation. This is the family tree of the sons of Noah. As they developed into nations. From them nations developed all across the earth after the flood. Todd: Perfect. Yeah, then let's do that first section of eleven. Yo, it's Carrie: You want keep going? Okay. Okay. All right. At one time the whole earth spoke the same language. It so happened that as they moved out of the east, they came upon a plain in the land of Shinar and settled down. They said to one another, Come, let's make bricks and fire them well. They used brick for stone and tar for mortar. Then they said, Come, let's build ourselves a city and And a tower that reaches heaven. Let's make ourselves famous so we won't be scattered here and there across the earth. God came down to look over the city and the tower those people had built. God took one look and said, One people, one language. Why, this is only a first step. No telling what they'll come up with next. They'll stop at nothing. Come, we'll go down and garble their speech so they won't understand each other. Then God scattered them from there all over the world, and they had to quit building the city. That's how it came to be called Babel, because there God turned their language into Babel. From there God scattered them all over the world. Todd: Job Carrie. Yeah, Yo, it's Carrie: Thank you. Hmm. Todd: I wanted to hit as we as we talk. Well the the Nimrod thing may seem a little strange, but I think it'll fit into what we're going to talk about. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: and then the the Noah the the very last thing I just wanted that I wanted to kind of reinforce because we're going with the story that Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: from from Noah, from Noah's sons, all the nations developed all across the earth after the flood. So that's Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: That that's the claim of of the of the Bible. And I Yo, it's Carrie: no. Todd: and I think, you know, it's a whether or not we're not it's not a science book, it's not whatever, but that's just that's the story. And Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Mm-hmm. Todd: so that's the frame that's the framework of this story going forward. So as we get into Abraham, we get into some of those things, we just know what we're dealing with. So then we get to Babel. What were your thoughts on the Tower of Babel? I mean, I I Maybe everybody kinda knows the story, do you think? Or you think it's a little bit obscure? Cousin Trevor: It's in the children's Bible Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: story book, isn't it? Todd: I think. Cousin Trevor: Yeah, it sure is. That's why for sure. Yo, it's Carrie: I think it I think it is, but I s it isn't it doesn't stand out as much. I don't know maybe maybe our teachers maybe in my growing up the teachers didn't really know what to do with this story. It was more like Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: I think we heard it and then we moved on. I don't feel like there were big lessons taught in this. I don't recall anything. Todd: It's just that's where all the languages came from, right? That's where all the pe different nationalities. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, I think yes, exactly. Almost like and again I we're I I'm careful to say this, but I do feel like it was presented as a a little bit of like a mythology to explain where the different languages came from. Yeah. Todd: Yeah. Well then maybe I I I don't know. I mean w for our purposes we take the stories as if they actually happen. So Yo, it's Carrie: Uh-huh. Yeah. Right. Todd: if if I find out on the other side of the veil that it was mythology, it wouldn't hurt my feelings. It's fine. It I think serves the same purpose. You know what I mean? So Yo, it's Carrie: Sure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Todd: and maybe maybe the mythology is is even stronger. You know what I mean? Maybe I was listening to Jordan Peterson this week and he was talking about fiction and and and Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: and this kind and how it's actually more real than fact. These foundational kind of stories, 'cause we think in stories, our whole lives are stories. Anyway, that's his that's Jordan Peterson's story. But Yo, it's Carrie: I would love to hear him talk about that. That would be really interesting. Todd: But I thought it was pretty good. So and what I think so you're you're getting this. Tell me, Trevor, you have some ideas on this. And I actually wanted to start with you. I wanted to hear your unique perspective. What do you think about it? Tell me Cousin Trevor: I have a lot of ideas about it, to tell you the truth. Todd: all your ideas. Well, at least start with one, then we'll see where we go from there. Lex Luther. Cousin Trevor: There's too much in it. I cannot do it out. Well I just wonder why why would why does this have to be mythology? I mean, you know, I mean, it doesn't have to be, but and then with the story of the flood, would we have to take that as mythology? Yo, it's Carrie: No, I'm just saying that yeah, is how it was kind of presented almost. But no, I don't Todd: No. You could though. I feel like you c I I mean I I don't. I I I don't want to say that. My only point is that even Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Todd: for people that do, I think it still holds it still holds a lot of truth. I but personally, I think it happened. I think you said I it's presented like it happened. I that's one of the reasons I wanted to read that that final thing and and then Cousin Trevor: Because you left off with Todd: It'd be too much probably to read the whole thing, but it really lays in it leans into the fact that everybody came from Noah's three sons. Like I it's this this isn't it's not shying away Yo, it's Carrie: Uh-huh. Todd: from like this is real. This is these are the people, this Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: is the the history, you know what I mean? So Cousin Trevor: Exactly. Todd: personally I don't think it's mythology. I think it it bears some some resemblance to mythology. Maybe it's just in how strong and and foundational the stories are. You know what I mean? Cousin Trevor: I just think it's I just think it's kind of amazing, you know, because you know, I for me the the whole Bible is taken as in in in one unit, you know. I mean Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: you talk about these stories and then you almost you didn't make an apology for it at the beginning, Todd, but it almost was like, you know, well, you know, you got no one then Everybody else came from these him and his three sons. You know? And it was kinda Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: like we're almost ashamed or not ashamed, but almost afraid to say it because that opens a whole can of worms and then Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: you have to just go at it, right? But I'm Todd: Right. Yo, it's Carrie: Ha ha ha. Cousin Trevor: gonna go at it right now. I'm gonna tell you, I I think it actually happened, you know. I mean what happens and I think the Tower of Babel was central to it because you have all of Noah's sons and and they're they're they're They're doing what they're supposed to do, right? They're they're multiplying Todd: Mm-hmm. Cousin Trevor: and trying to fill the earth again, right? Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: Just like the just like God gave Adam and Eve that that command and to do that at the beginning at the beginning of the world. And so Todd: Yeah, and they must have had more than clearly there's way more than than this. So this is just for whatever reasons people of significance that are being that are being named, but they're but they're they're le they're they're leaving us a clear lineage. Like Cousin Trevor: Absolutely. Todd: from Noah to Abraham. Like it's Cousin Trevor: Right, right. And we don't know how many people I mean, they were making a great city, they were making a a tower that was gonna reach into the heavens, so there must have I'm I'm not sure. Did you ask Grok how many people they had at the time? Todd: I didn't. I the one of the reasons that I wanted to read the Nimrod part is it that he was the first great warrior on earth. He was a great hunter before God, but he was also a great builder. And and and and this actually is brought out, I think, in some other translations that I was reading. but but he so he built these cities, probably was the primary architect of the Tower of Babel. Like this is Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: this is so he's they they've built I don't know how long this has been going on, but but I think we're given to think that it's been a while. There's a lot of people. And and so you have it names these other cities, but then I think this this idea of of Babel was I don't know if it was first or if it was he you had a few of the others and then this was kind of the culmination. Some people think that the idea of this tower was to that they could escape Another another civilization ending flood. You know what I mean, maybe was was part of the idea. Although I don't know. I mean I mean I don't know. Well you know Cousin Trevor: Okay. Can you read that again? What was the reasoning? I mean, he the Bible gave the reasoning about why they were building this tower and why they were building this city. Todd: They s they said to one another, so they came upon so it it's this idea that that the whole earth is speaking one language, and that as they moved out east, they're all still together. So that they they aren't really quite doing what God wanted, which is fill the earth and and scatter. but then he says, Come, they say to one another, Come, let's make bricks and fire them well. They used brick for stone and tar for mortar. I think the idea there is that they used Advanced technology. Let's say that. They were replacing stone with brick. You know y you understand what I'm saying? So even at this stage they they they were somewhat advanced. And come let's build ourselves a city and a tower that reaches heaven. Let's make ourselves famous so we won't be scattered here and there across the earth is what they said. Cousin Trevor: Right. So their main goal was to one, make themselves famous and number two, make it so that they wouldn't have to be scattered across the earth. Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: And God's reaction, can we read that? Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Yes. God came down to look over the city and the tower those people had built. God took one look and said, One people, one language, why this is only a first step, no telling what they'll come up with next. They'll stop at nothing. Come, we'll go down and garble their speech so they won't understand each other. Then God scattered them from there all over the world, and they had to quit building the city. That's how it came to be called Babel. Because their God turned their language into Babel, from their God scattered them all over the world. Cousin Trevor: So there's two things that were happening that they were doing. One is they were raised up in pride, right? So that's Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cousin Trevor: been one central sin that has been always plagued humanity since the beginning, right? Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: And number two is disobedience, right? Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: They didn't want to scatter, they didn't want to fill the whole earth, they wanted to remain together so that they could make a name for themselves. Todd: Yeah, I think what they're leaning into is the independence of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Like they they wanted they wanted to reach God on their own terms and not Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: have to wait for God on his terms. Does that make sense? What do you think, Carrie? Cousin Trevor: Yeah, absolutely. And Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, that's a that's a great way of putting it. on their terms. That's interesting. But Todd: And through and through their own effort. Yo, it's Carrie: Well, right. Like Trevor said, it's pride. I mean, they're just concerned with you know, with the accomplishment of it. And again, I Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: like we I don't think we're not gonna have to qualify everything we say here. I mean, we all know that God gives us gifts and we're allowed to excel and be good at things, but Todd: sure. Yo, it's Carrie: but their motivation is not right in God's eyes. Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: It's for their own it's for their own glory and not for his. And like Trevor, you notice too. They're being disobedient. They wanna they've got this community, they're all close, they wanna stay there. So it's not what he asked them to do. Cousin Trevor: And and I love and I love how God had to come down and take a look at the screen. And then I love Yo, it's Carrie: I know. It's like wait till your father gets here. Todd: It's very Cousin Trevor: God said, Whoa, I'm scared. I'm worried. If I don't do something, they're gonna reach the heavens, right? They're gonna become a threat to God. No, th God didn't say that, did he? I mean, the Bible kind of makes it sound like he was like that, but I think Todd: Mm-hmm. Cousin Trevor: I think that's where the that's where that we have to dig into the meat of the story. Why did God even take note of this? And why did he choose that event to finally intervene? Yo, it's Carrie: feel like he was nipping it in the bud. It's not like he actually fears that they're going to be like a threat to him or maybe this tower is actually going to reach heaven. I mean, obviously no. I think we can all agree that that's not real the real concern. But to be like, my gosh, like they're already off they're already off on the a path that I don't want them to go on. So it's almost him like knocking them down a peg, nipping it in the bud and saying, no, this is this is not what we're doing here. It's kinda like you start to hear shenanigans among the kids when they're little. You walk them in, No, no, no, we're not doing this. And you like send Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: them off to do something else. Todd: I I think that it's very what's the word? Anthro anthropomorphic. Is that the is that the word? It's very the the w when you see God in this, it it this is God as a person. Like this is God doing things. This isn't like the spirit of God. Do you know what I mean? Like this is this is like I I think that this must be in in tradition there is some traditions that think this that this is a preincarnate kind of appearance of Christ that that happens throughout kind of the Old Testament where he kind of appears in in in this, you know, kind of a form and and and yes is talking Cousin Trevor: Well like you watch with with Adam in the Garden of Eden, right? But we're not getting Todd: I think the same thing, yeah. Cousin Trevor: there yet. Yo, it's Carrie: In and with Noah, was it Noah early on? with Enoch. Okay. Yeah, that they like walked Todd: Mm. Enoch? Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: together. Todd: and I and I mean he talked to Noah, so yeah, you I mean I don't and from what we're gonna Yo, it's Carrie: In the what do they call this? The early world? Is this called the early world? Like by scholars? Todd: I don't know. Well you had the antediluvian world which was before the flood, and then after this we're Yo, it's Carrie: okay. Todd: into the or yeah, I mean the I don't know what you would call it. Yo, it's Carrie: I thought I had heard someone say this is like the early world, but l I'll it Todd: Maybe that's what it's called. Yo, it's Carrie: sounds fitting. I'll I'll call it that. I apologize if that's incorrect. But in the early world, it seems like God is, yeah. Never never apologize. Todd: Never apologize. There says that somewhere in the message. Yo, it's Carrie: I think that's what these people might have said. Build a tower and never apologize. Todd: Anyway, go ahead, Gary. Yo, it's Carrie: I just it seems like during this period, like in Genesis up until now, that we've seen that. We've seen God Among them, like in human form. Todd: I think I'm not gonna be able to express this it very well because I'm not Yo, it's Carrie: Not a booming voice or, you know, a spirit. Mm-hmm. Todd: sure it can be expressed very well. I think I can just get around the edges of it a little bit. I think when the when the incarnation takes place within creation there's part of that's that's timeless. It it doesn't I mean I know that it's an event that happens in time. But it but it also stretches out over the whole story. And so when Jesus appears, I think it's Jesus. Like you know what I mean? I I that's that's what I think it is. I think that somehow that he's that the Yo, it's Carrie: I mean that makes sense to me. Todd: he's in he's incarnated and and it's true it happens at this one time, but it kind of spreads over the whole thing both backward and forward. Does that make sense? Cousin Trevor: Yeah. Well we think in a timeline like you said and you have to be on this timeline, you have to go the next Todd: Right. Cousin Trevor: step, next step. God sees it all as one. It's like a book to him and he can just turn to whatever he wants, right? Or he sees the whole story at once. Todd: Yeah, there's a sense in which God died for man at the same time that he created man. I i in other words, it's all now to him. Do you know what I mean? But it's it's it's Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: tough for us to wrap our head around this. But I I think it suits us always because the tendency with everybody is to take when God steps into a story and be like, We we want to make sure that everybody knows that God isn't really worried because God never worries. And so we we start to kind of To kind of boltrus the and I think sometimes it's worth just taking God as the character that he is in this story. We know that that certainly there's a lot more than that, but just within a story, I Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: think God can almost play just almost a character role in his own drama. I mean, we know he did the ultimate sense of that is Jesus. And I think to some extent he does it all through the book. And so when you almost see God, it's almost like He like He learns a little. I and I and I know that in a sense he can't, but I think that there's part of that if you think about how much we like to learn and all the wonder and everything, I think there's part of that experience that somehow God gets through all the creation and everything. Do you know what I mean? I just I mean, why would we love it so much? We're made in his image and you know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: I I like how you're delicately saying this because if if you read if you read from the beginning of Genesis and if you know the New Testament at all, God has a different a little bit of a different personality. Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: so did God like grow and change throughout time? Possibly. I like I like to think, yeah, sure. Todd: Well maybe his character within this story did. Without God the eternality that is everything. You know what I'm saying? Like I think there can Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Todd: be a difference. Don't you think, Trevor? Or no? Cousin Trevor: I think so. I you just kind of you know, brought me back to the to the gospel of John, remember, you know, because in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God Todd: Yeah. Right. Cousin Trevor: and God was with him in the beginning. Todd: Right. Cousin Trevor: So that would support your your theory that you were trying to I thought you explained it really well. Because Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: that's God does not he's he's outside of time. He's out time he's outside of space, he's outside of all those realms, and he can step in whenever he wants. Todd: But in some way, like especially we know within the incarnation, at least, I mean it has to be that that it that there was some way for Jesus to kind of he could tap into the everlasting, but but it but it doesn't seem like he walked around with it all the time. In other words, certainly he asked questions to which he didn't know the answer, or else he wouldn't have had anything resembling a human experience like we do. You know what I mean? So he had to somehow Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Yeah. Todd: be able to put a veil on it. Cousin Trevor: The veil of that. Todd: for his experience. Does that make sense? Where he could when he wanted to, it seems like, tap into it, but maybe spend a lot of the time just kind of living in the spirit like maybe we're supposed to. Does that make sense? Cousin Trevor: Wasn't the Post Paul it wasn't the Apostle Paul this is something about the veil of flesh that we have. Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: That you know, that kinda keeps us from our true purpose. Todd: Yeah. Well and I think it was part Yo, it's Carrie: Veil of flesh. Todd: of maybe in a way part of Jesus emptying himself. Like is it Philippians where it talks about that where he talks about and he and he emptied himself and became a servant to all, even Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: to the point of going to the cross. And so Cousin Trevor: Right, right. Todd: there's some there's some ways in which in order to participate in his own story, God is is kind of putting some of that foreknowledge of everything or whatever in the veil, I don't know. I don't know how I I can't imagine it, but I feel like that's what it looks like. And I Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: can imagine wanting to do it if I was God because it's fun. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: I die you know what I mean? I I don't Yo, it's Carrie: I know you'd want to be a part, you'd want to like be close to it, right? Wouldn't you want Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: to be close to your creation? All right. This is so not the direction I thought we were going, but I have to go on a tangent. All right. So if you guys are thinking about God enjoys going and being close to his creation. Todd: Uh-huh. Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. And then fast forward to Jesus' time. Jesus is, you know, God made into man. He's has his whole human experience for a greater purpose. Do we think God has like, did God stop coming here? Has he stopped coming? Or Todd: Well theoretically he's coming through his church, right? Through us. We're the body of Christ. Yo, it's Carrie: Well that's that's what I was gonna say. Like we're okay. Yeah, but I don't feel like we're Todd: Does that make sense? We're the hands and feet of Jesus. Yo, it's Carrie: I don't feel like it's the same. Todd: And the Holy Spirit's here now, where the Holy Spirit wasn't somehow there then. So so maybe I mean Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Okay, thank you. Okay, that helps. The Holy Spirit is here. Todd: in in that way I guess he's he's closer maybe than than ever in the hearts and of of so many different people and whatever and working all the time. And so Jesus said that he said it'll be better for you if I leave so that he can come. So we don't know what that means, but whatever it means, Jesus knew that it would be better Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: for us if we just had the Holy And so he is close, you know what I mean? But I think physically, yeah, I think it's for Christians, don't you, Trevor? Cousin Trevor: I think so. I think you you're sounding like you know you the dispensationalism is coming coming through you now. You know what dispensation Todd: Why? Cousin Trevor: is, you know? The difference No, but I I I agree, you know. Uncle Larry Todd: Yeah. Well I think there is a church. I mean the the church I mean the kingdom age I guess you could call it. You know what I mean? I Cousin Trevor: Yeah, yep. Todd: which I don't think'll I I don't think that ends so much as Christ just comes and kinda culminates it. You know what I mean? And and then that's and then rolls out. Whatever the rest of the of the kingdom story is. Cousin Trevor: Well there was different there was different ages of revelation, right? In the in the beginning Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: the revelation, you know, that was displayed in creation and Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: and then you had the word that was coming in the law actually, and then you have Jesus coming as the word and and you're right, Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: now we're now we're at the you know, God is supposed to be revealed through his church. And some Todd: Right. Cousin Trevor: I don't know if we do a good job. Todd: Well, we probably don't. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: But what's impressive I think actually it Yo, it's Carrie: It depends if Beyonce's performance. Todd: did you see that? Did I send that to you, Trevor? Cousin Trevor: No. Todd: Or did I just send it to Will and I sent it to Will and Carey. Yo, it's Carrie: my gosh, Trevor. Okay. Sorry. Cousin Trevor: I see. Todd: It was some Southern Baptist mega church. I don't know. I don't know the name and I don't even know the place. But it was like they were having a warm up like for the sermon or whatever, and it was like this medley of like Beyonce songs and like all these like chicks in like Beyonce outfits. It Yo, it's Carrie: Like dance dancers and Todd: was so strange. So very strange. Yo, it's Carrie: It looked like a talent show. It did not look like a ch search service. Yes. Okay. Todd: But it's but in spite of and we're gonna talk more about this a little later in this discussion, Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: but in spite of of all of the problems and all of the missteps that the church has done, the amazing thing to me is somehow God uses it anyway, like somehow he works anyway, like in spite Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. That's Todd: of us all the time. And it's easier Cousin Trevor: Promises. Todd: to see if we look at it like in our personal lives. It's easier to be like, well, yeah, he works through us, but somehow when we widen out the lens. We hope that it'll be a little bit better than the micros Yo, it's Carrie: Thank you for saying that, Todd, 'cause I was feeling like I don't know. I don't know wh if that's happening, but I think you're right. Anyway. Todd: But Trevor, I thought you had something about AI you saw in this. Cousin Trevor: Why do I just I Yo, it's Carrie: yeah. Cousin Trevor: just see the there's a pattern throughout scripture where there's two sins, you know, there's two sins that are Todd: he's getting there. I'm ruining it. Cousin Trevor: they keep coming up, you know? You can't sit with pride and disobedience, Todd: Yes. Pride and disobedience. That's what you said. Cousin Trevor: yep. And it's always Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Cousin Trevor: when you try to raise yourself up to the level of God, when you try to assume a position that you don't have, what happens Todd: Yep. Yep. Cousin Trevor: after that? God intervenes. Todd: Right. Cousin Trevor: He takes your legs out from under your and then you have humility. Todd: Judgment. Cousin Trevor: And then you have humility, right? Because Todd: Yes. Cousin Trevor: judgment brings humility. Todd: Right. Cousin Trevor: that happened at the creation, right? Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: I was gonna say it ha I it's already happened. It could say too it happened at the with the angels. Cousin Trevor: Absolutely, yep, that would that was recreation. Todd: Yeah, the flood. Cousin Trevor: Yeah, yeah, it happened in the flood and Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Cousin Trevor: then it Todd: Mm-hmm. Cousin Trevor: repeated and and the you know, we don't know how long, maybe thousand years later, who knows? The Tower of Babel. Todd: Right. Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Cousin Trevor: And it just keeps on happening, and the Lord has always intervened. And I'm just saying, you know, when is the next when is the next intervention from the Lord gonna come? You know? And Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: when you think about it, you think about it. A lot of people are excited about AI and I know Todd uses Grok and I use Chat GPT and we and I love it too, you know. And it's just so amazing that you can put the stuff in and and it can just process it just like that. You know, Todd's books Todd: Right. Cousin Trevor: here's your you know, it could be his publicist, you know. Todd: Mm-hmm. Cousin Trevor: And it's just so amazing, but people are they think Todd: I wish it would do something other than just say, This is really good. You should do something with this. This is the best Yo, it's Carrie: If they could if they could wash the dishes, I would use it, you know? Todd: book I ever read. I don't know why you don't tell anybody about it. Cousin Trevor: Anyway, it's happening. You know, it I believe it's happening with with this AI movement. You know, people are expecting Yo, it's Carrie: Interesting. Cousin Trevor: AI to have more intelligence than the than than all of the human human I don't know, I can't remember what they call it, but they Todd: I don't either. Cousin Trevor: think it's gonna be smarter than all of humanity in I don't know, twenty twenty Todd: Accumulated intelligence of man or something. Cousin Trevor: And they think it's just gonna keep on going on into into exponential intelligence Todd: Mm-hmm. Cousin Trevor: that it's gonna take over and wipe out man, but we're not gonna get that far yet. But people are Yo, it's Carrie: I don't think so. Cousin Trevor: thinking it's gonna be able to cure diseases, it's gonna be able to make it Todd: They are. Cousin Trevor: that we have you know, we have everybody's everybody has abundance, nobody has any Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: there's there's anything that you want you can have. And you won't have work and they're gonna have no diseases and you're gonna be able to possibly live, you know, hundreds of years, if not forever. Yeah, they're Todd: Almost sounds like the kingdom of God. Yo, it's Carrie: I was gonna say I don't think any of that is happening here, but okay. Cousin Trevor: Well, I don't know if you I think there is I think there is a pride is the main sin of that. And when is God gonna intervene, you know? People say you know, I personally think that, you know, God won't let it get to the point, you know, who knows what could happen. There could be Todd: the Elon Musk were fleeing for Mars point? I don't Cousin Trevor: Yeah, who knows? Todd: think so either. I don't even believe in space. No, I'm just kidding. A little bit of it. Cousin Trevor: But what if this what if his intervention was Yo, it's Carrie: I don't believe in space. Cousin Trevor: not Elon Musk leaving for Mars, Todd? What if his intervention was not a war that would just blow up all the computers, then we'd be back to stone age Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: of type of civilization? What if his intervention was actually the second coming of Christ? I mean Todd: Yeah. You be you mean you you could see that happening sooner, any time. Sooner rather than later, maybe. Cousin Trevor: I guess I'm saying that every time that that that pattern in the Bible, every time there's pe the w we try to elevate ourselves to a position that we don't you know, rightfully belong, Todd: Right. Cousin Trevor: God intervenes with judgment. And I don't know, I just think that this this AI thing you know, a lot of people are scared of it, a lot of people are heralding it. You either love it or you hate it. I just think it's the natural progression of man always trying to become creator, trying to be like God. Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: What was the original temptation in the garden? The serpent said, Eat of the tree and you will become like God. And then you have Todd: Yeah. You'll know all things, you'll become like God, knowing good from evil. Cousin Trevor: Yeah, you know, and then you have Dawkins and stuff trying to they try to kill God, right? And they try to make Todd: Mm-hmm. Cousin Trevor: And then they try to elevate themselves up to the point where maybe we can create a new life that goes on and humans might be gone, but our AI creations will live forever, you know? That's I we're trying Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: to become godlike and we're trying to be we're we're trying to put our hope in something. And I think it's kind of prideful. Todd: Well it is. Yo, it's Carrie: It is. It's prideful. What's funny is I feel like the the striving, the desire to strive is is because we're made in his image. Like, you know, are are aren't we striving to be like him, to be close to him because we are of him? And I don't know, I don't know where where that where that crosses the line. Again, maybe it has to do with are you glorifying yourself or are you glorifying God with the accomplishments? Maybe that's the difference between pride and Todd: Well, Carrie, you hit on something that I am interested in in this chapter. Although, you know, I wanted to say, Trevor, before that I I was looking at Matthew twenty four, which is the the famous Olivet Discourse, where Jesus is to famous well to to Yo, it's Carrie: This is famous and I I don't know what this is. What is this? Okay. Todd: not to Catholics. I mean, what's famous to Catholics except the Statue of Mary? Like, I recognize that. Yo, it's Carrie: God. We're not hating on Mary today. We are not hating on Mary today. Todd: it says the arrival of the so Jesus is talking to his disciples. This is when he's he's talking about the the the he's gonna tear down the temple. the the the Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, yeah. Todd: the the whole thing there's not gonna be a stone left unturned in in his reference what he's referencing in my opinion, I think pretty clearly is AD seventy, when the Romans actually do that and they actually tear down the temple and they actually have the abomination of desecration and they actually plow the thing under and So that's important to remember, but it also says before that he says the arrival of the Son of Man, this is in reference to what to what Trevor was saying, will take place in times like Noah's. Before the Great Flood, everyone was carrying on as usual, having a good time right up until the day Noah boarded the Ark. They knew nothing until the flood hit and swept everything away. And I think it will be like that. Like it'll be just like. It it'll be and I don't think the other thing it says is that the then the arrival of the Son of Man it will fill the skies. No one will miss it. Like it's not like you go here, you go there, it's like that's the end of the show, folks. Those skies roll up like a scroll, you know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: So wild. Todd: And then that's the beginning of the of the kingdom, I think. The the right? The I mean not the beginning, it's kind of the culmination, I guess, maybe of the kingdom. So Or maybe Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: the culmination of the new beginning of the new heaven and the new earth, however you want to think about it. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Cousin Trevor: Millennial. Todd: So yeah, Trevor's dispensational. Yo, it's Carrie: Interesting. Todd: But one of the things that I see in this, to me, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Todd: this is kind of this this Tower of Babel thing, like I said, it's foundational. And I th I see in it the beginning the I I I see all kind of of institutions, the beginning of of organization. organization of governments of nation states of cities Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: of these kinds of things just just organization of of individuals and and institutions and then organ organized religion specifically because their whole thing is they're they're gonna build their way to God. They're gonna build a tower and they're gonna build Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: their way to God. Now see I think when G when well I'm gonna say Jesus, but when God comes down and he's looking at it and he says, Hold on, I gotta find it. He says, God came down, he took one look and said, one people, one language. Why this is only a first step. No telling what they'll come up with next. They'll stop at nothing. and then he and then he scatters them. I what is he afraid of? What is he worried about? Is he worried? Is he afraid that they're gonna my god, they might actually make it to heaven, like Trevor said. No, I don't think so. But I think what he might be afraid of is that they'll think they have. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Cousin Trevor: Yeah. Todd: Do you know what I mean? They're they're more Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: worried about that. I think God's more worried about that because once they think they've made it, they don't have any need for God. That's why Jesus, when he came and the Pharisees don't recognize him, and he says, I didn't come to the sick or I didn't come to the healthy, but to the sick. And they didn't need him. That's why they didn't recognize him. And these people, this is the same problem. You know what I mean? Is that they don't they don't think they need God. They think they can do it on their own. And and so there's a striving in that. And and there is something that Carrie talked about. There's something that's in man that's insatiable that wants to build. And you see this. Now I'm gonna bang on organized religion. Of course, you could apply it at all kinds of institutional levels. Yo, it's Carrie: Ha ha ha. Todd: But there's something about us that we get a church and then we wanna build a building. And then we g want to get more people, and then we wanna make a name for ourselves and have it on t shirts and hoodies. And there's just something in us Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Or on T V. Todd: That's in that. I think it's found it's a foundational problem, that desire for independence, but I think it manifests itself in organized religion. Now Grok is always quick to push back on me on how well you gotta have some organization, apparently. I come off a little bit of an anarchist. Whoa, Yo, it's Carrie: That's funny. Todd: whoa, whoa. What do you think? Yo, it's Carrie: Trevor, what do you think of that? Cousin Trevor: I think that's absolutely true. I mean we do Todd: You think there's an application there? Cousin Trevor: Yeah, we I think that's basically the heart of it, you know. The I the heart of it is the heart of man and God is concerned with the heart of man because that is where we either accept him or reject him. We either come into relationship with him or else we go our own separate way. So you know another another meaning of the story is, you know, God could just be saying, you know, he told them to be fruitful and multiply all the earth. And they said, Hey, we're staying here, we're not gonna do it. And and God Todd: Right. Cousin Trevor: now said, Hey, look at they're building a city, they're never gonna go away. Todd: I think I think what you get from this is that God hates people who live in cities. Cousin Trevor: Yeah. Todd: No, I'm just kidding. He really likes farmers a lot. Cousin Trevor: That's right. Well you know, they didn't obey it. They didn't go, they didn't they wanted to stay together. Todd: No, I I think you're right about that. I think that they that that you see one of the main things you see in this, I think that encompasses the whole thing, is a resistance to God's to doing things God's way and God's order. You know what I mean? And and I actually I think you make a Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a good that's a good summary of it. Yeah. Todd: I think you make a good point, Carrie, in that the other thing is that it's not about us building our way to God, it's always been about God coming down. All the way through. That's the entire story is a God comes down. And and so this everything about what they were trying to do and was was was inverting what God's plan was. Does that make sense? Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Mm-hmm. So do you feel like it's it's a a punishment? So the the division, what what he does is he divides this nation. He divides this the people of Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: this city and the nation. Is it a punishment that he? Sure. I mean we have a broader, you know, we have a broader perspective. Mm-hmm. Todd: Well, I think if you were them you might have thought so. Depending, I don't know. It certainly ended this particular endeavor. You know what I mean? So well if it frustrated their their their purpose at that point. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. But I mean to be scattered, to be to suddenly be communicating in different ways, then and not understanding Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: each other, is that a is that a punishment, that that division he created? Todd: It's not as much of a judgment as like the flood or or that kind of thing. Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Cousin Trevor: Well you don't know, Toddy, if if it was if it was given d different languages to different family members and it split families, you know? That might have been more of a punishment for them. Todd: That's true. That Yo, it's Carrie: Right. He's like you can't all be Todd: seems Yo, it's Carrie: inbreeding. We gotta like spread spread you out. That could be. Cousin Trevor: Can't you Todd: For some reason, for some reason I feel like God would have that figured out. But I don't know. I I don't it's like Trevor's back to his rapture idea. Boom! Holy Yo, it's Carrie: Sure. Yeah. Todd: shit, what happened to my sister? Why is she speaking German? Yo, it's Carrie: To you guys. Or what is she speaking? Todd: You Cousin Trevor: Yeah. Todd: go with your own people. Cousin Trevor: You go east. Yo, it's Carrie: my gosh. You guys, did you did either of you study philosophy in college? Did you have any like like philosophy? Todd: I took a couple of classes. Yo, it's Carrie: So like ancient Greek philosophers okay, there Todd: So I'm an expert basically. Yo, it's Carrie: you go. Ancient Greek philosophers call call this thing, they call it the question or the problem of the one and the many. Are you familiar with the question? This This story made me think of Todd: Yes, I think so. Yo, it's Carrie: the problem of the one and the many. It really is it is the debate, it's it's the issue of the difference between unity and diversity. here when we enter this scene. It's all unity. Everyone is together. Every it's one nation. Everyone is speaking the same Todd: Mm-hmm. Yo, it's Carrie: language. They're all working. They all have the same purpose. And God then divides them all, makes them all diverse, different languages, different nations, creates different nations. Todd: Mm-hmm. Yo, it's Carrie: And what's interesting is I'm thinking of later when Jesus comes, you know, there's such division and he's really about unifying them again, which I think is interesting. Todd: Well, y I think you're you're hitting on a point I was gonna make at some point. Yo, it's Carrie: okay. Okay. Todd: No, I you you're right there, which is I think that that you're again, we talk about the story has certain bookends. And and the Tower Yo, it's Carrie: Mm, yes. Todd: of Babel is one and that's where God separates their languages and he scatters the people. And I think that the other book end of that is Pentecost, because that's where you see all the different languages and everyone's hearing them together. So it's in the church that Yo, it's Carrie: That's right. Mm-hmm. Todd: That Jesus is unwinding this particular spell of Babel. Do you know what I mean? Because Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Mm-hmm. Todd: it's in the church where they've realized God came down. They aren't trying Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: to build their way to him. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: They're saying their whole their whole message is He came and He rose from the dead, and you can we can too. Like it's crazy. Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: What do you think, Trevor? Cousin Trevor: I think that's awesome, yeah. It's it's absolutely you know, God came down and and so he you're you're right, he kind of juxtaposes all of those ideas that you know at Babel they thought that they had to reach God and God was something to be attained by reaching up. Todd: Yeah. Something to be grasped. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Cousin Trevor: And God's you know, spread out with the different, you know, by creating the different languages and that barrier. And Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: and then God And the day of Pen you know Pentecost, Pentec you know, Pentecost when he came and he they were speaking in tongues and everybody could hear in their own language. Todd: Yeah, is unifying everybody, like Carrie talked about. Yo, it's Carrie: Uh-huh. Todd: That's the ultimate unity is in the church, in the kingdom, I guess. I I church kingdom means the same thing, but Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Cousin Trevor: Yeah. I think that's kind of it's a poetic way to put it, yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: Interesting. Todd: I like that and I like well, I think in Jesus in general. Jesus is i Yo, it's Carrie: In Jesus, yeah. Todd: in Jesus is where he's calling there there's so many different passages where every knee will bow, every tongue will confess, and and Jesus is calling all the nations to Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. You're right. Todd: himself and he's gonna reign till he rules till you know all the nations submit in the whole thing. So Jesus is d Jesus is re that's where the name that's where the unity comes, is Jesus regathers the nations that were scattered. And Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: it but I also think that that God did this even in Acts, if you remember with persecution, because Jesus told you know, go out, go to J Judea, Samaria, the ends of the world, whatever. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: Take the gospel out. And there was a tendency in that early church to want to kind of stay put in Jerusalem. 'Cause there's a tendency in all of us to want to stay where we're comfortable, is why? Yo, it's Carrie: Of course of course. Todd: And so God through persecution scattered the Christians. And so you you get kind of the same idea. That that Yo, it's Carrie: interesting. Todd: Jesus will that God will, this is that's another pattern, which is if try try to stay comfortable, try not to take Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: the step of faith like we're gonna see Abraham take in not very long. It could they that the call comes to Abraham and Abraham responds and goes. Well that's the alternative because You can try to hold on to your life, but like Jesus said, if you try to hold on to your life, you're gonna lose it. If you give up your life, if you give up your comfort and take the step of faith, you'll gain your life. That's that upside down nature of everything. And I think Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: that's that's true about y you understand what I'm saying? Does that make a little bit of sense? Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: And I do think it's some it i it is I I don't know I think now see this is this is i if I were to take an overview, I think that that what what God does here is the beginning of unwinding that independence, that that primary sin you talk about, which I think you're right, Trevor's a combination of disobedience and pride. I don't know if there's any difference between the two really. You know what I mean? Like I I I don't know. It's kind of the same Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: thing. But that original flaw, you know, I I think. And and then what I think is that they they think they can build their way to him, and he and first he scatters them, and then he's gonna spend the rest of the old testament. He's gonna pick one nation. First he's gonna pick one dude, Abraham, and w in his family is gonna say, I'm gonna make a great nation of you. We're gonna see a bunch of this as we go through Genesis. And then When God comes in at with with with the law, I think He what He's going to show them is listen, it's in all of you to want to build your way to me. This is what it would take. And so He kind of He kind of showed reveals the law to them and reveals the impossibility of us attaining that. That's what Paul talks about. The law is a schoolmaster that turns to Christ. And then finally at just the right time. The savior appears who says, You don't have to. That's the whole point. You can't. So I'm gonna do it for you. But you have to Cousin Trevor: You can't Todd: humble yourself to come to me. And I'm pretty offensive on the front end. So maybe not at your local megachurch, but you know, in real life. Yo, it's Carrie: Ha ha. Todd: What do you think, Trevor? Cousin Trevor: Yeah, I I think exactly right. You know, we we cannot reach our way up to God. He has to come down to us and then we have to humble ourselves to have that relationship. Todd: But I think Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: to me, the Jews kinda had the ultimate kind of organized religion they had built up. And to me, this is where it might be a little bit of a stretch to people. I think that what God what God was doing with the cross Yo, it's Carrie: You're just looking for this tat. Todd: is he was putting a stake right through the heart of organized religion. And I don't think that's what he meant. I don't think he he he he he made a body not a religion going forward. And it's not he he did not want this this type of Step your way to Christ, earn your way to God kind of thing. And he put us and then I think he emphasized it in A D seventy when he plowed the whole thing under just like he said he was gonna do and said, I'm done with all of that. It's all been fulfilled, it was all finished on the cross. Now we're in the kingdom. So anyway, what do you think of that? You think I'm too anti organization? Trippers like, I'm a worship pastor, come on. Cousin Trevor: No, no. Todd: What do you mean? Cousin Trevor: You know, in a sense God did do that, you know. But that was you know, it was his vehicle, it was his tool. It was all in his plan, it's all in his master plan. And that's why the Old Testament and the New Testament are one Bible, you know. Todd: I agree. Cousin Trevor: Because everybody thinks there's a God of the Old Testament, there's God of the New Testament. There's not. It's one God Todd: Right. Cousin Trevor: and He doesn't change, He's the same God, and He's just creating some beautiful redemption story to reclaim his creation. So that's Yo, it's Carrie: That's a nice way to summarize the Bible. Todd: Well agree to an extent, except the reason I Yo, it's Carrie: In the history. Todd: I think when I'm talking about organized religion, what I'm talking about is the reason that we're dividing is because we've got our boxes all set up and in your box isn't like my box and we have to divide and we have to do this. And it Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: seems to me all through the New Testament in the epistles that the one thing we're being called to over and over and over again is to love in spite of our differences, not start our own church. Like it just seems to me like it's bodies, it's people in homes, it's people in their lives ministering ministering to each other and maybe disagreeing about things and maybe learning to love each other anyway. And not being lorded over in the Sunday show. Anyway. That's my thought. What do we think? Cousin Trevor: I think it's good. But I think that you know, you should write a book about the Tower of Babel though, you know what? I think that would make a great Todd: Yeah, I don't Cousin Trevor: I think that would make a great movie too, you know. You know, they're Todd: Mm-hmm. Cousin Trevor: building this great tower and then all of a sudden it says, Give me a hammer and then the guy says, Whoop whoop you know, then he knows Todd: I know. Cousin Trevor: what a hammer is, he can't hand it to him and and then it's it was his brother in law and then his brother in law has easy Todd: Nobody can understand anybody. They're all like, Jeez. I gotta get divorced. I can't even understand my kid. Cousin Trevor: know what? And then and then the whole thing. Todd: I never understood Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: it before, now I can't understand at all. Cousin Trevor: Hey, give me that screwdriver, Todd Willia. Todd: huh. Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: That's funny. Todd: No, I th I thought it was good. What do you think? Did a good job? Did we miss out on anything, Terry? Cousin Trevor: That was good. Yo, it's Carrie: Really good. Trevor, yeah, did we miss did I wanna ask Trevor if we missed anything, any like perspectives on it because you said you had Cousin Trevor: I don't know. I mean there was just there's so many ideas, you know, about I I think Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, good shared. Cousin Trevor: it's just incredible how you know, when people think about how could people come from just how could all the the world's peoples and races come from two people, you know? Todd: Mm-hmm. Cousin Trevor: And yeah, I just I just think this this was the key, you know. I mean you you if you have to if you have people living apart separately, you know, they're I I don't even want to go there 'cause you guys can think I'm crazy. Todd: Awful lot of humpin', I imagine. Cousin Trevor: Well you know, how do you get Todd: And no birth control. Cousin Trevor: Well you think about it, when people talk about the different breeds of dogs, all we do you know, we have they all they come from these dogs and then they just keep breeding them and then Todd: Yeah. Cousin Trevor: the these characteristics and the how the Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, that's true. Cousin Trevor: gene pool reacts and how how the hereditary how what all that stuff they You gotta do exactly. Todd: That's how we got balled. Exactly that It's all because of Shem Ham and Japan. Yo, it's Carrie: There was no women And there was no women's health care. Cousin Trevor: That's right. Todd: No women's health care. Yo, it's Carrie: No women's health care. Todd: Exactly. Yo, it's Carrie: I know. I mean, bottom line, when and I'm glad that we don't I'm glad we don't debate the science of you know, I I've a couple of times I've gone to look up something like, Hey, is there a podcast talking about this or talking about that? And so much of it is like, you know, did did Noah's Ark Todd: Numbers and facts and Yo, it's Carrie: did Noah's Ark like actually exist? And here's why. Archaeological, whatever. It's all the science stuff, which is cool. but but I like that we don't do that. I like that we're just We're taking it at face value and I mean all things are possible with God, so who are we to? Right. Todd: Well I feel like God God's trying to tell us a story. You know? And we and so I mean, who are we to second guess them, first of all? And I don't know whether I the Yo, it's Carrie: I know. Exactly. Todd: I I don't know how anything happened or didn't happen. At some point we'll know. It's fun to imagine it. But there's Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Todd: some there's some themes that run through all of it, you know? Yeah, I don't know what that was. Probably Trevor. Cousin Trevor: Probably mean. Yo, it's Carrie: Trevor's getting a call. He's got a pop he's gotta pop up. Cousin Trevor: You think God is scared of all this stuff though? No. You think he's scared that one Todd: No. Cousin Trevor: our AI get too smart? Yo, it's Carrie: No. Todd: Well, I don't think God's scared anything, no. Yo, it's Carrie: Nope. Todd: Reckon he's got it all under control. Yo, it's Carrie: I do I do wonder if he's, you know, shaking his head sometimes at us. Like, they just don't get it. Or or is he Todd: I mean I think there's a point at which all civilizations kind of st Yo, it's Carrie: like you're so close? You know, like I wonder how he I wonder how he thinks we're doing. Todd: I don't know. Yo, it's Carrie: Would you start to say Todd? About civilization? Todd: I don't know. I just well you wonder, 'cause I mean civilizations do go through. We would it would be the end of the world to us if the American Empire, you know, crumbled eventually, but Yo, it's Carrie: True. Todd: it is it is I mean the fact of the matter is they're not gonna be flying the American flag in heaven. They're not gonna be flying any flags. All all of these all of these states, all these organizations that we that we build ourselves into, those are all sand castles. Like The immortals are the people or the potential immortals are the people that Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: you talk to every day. Yo, it's Carrie: Are you saying we sh you saying Todd: Potential immortals. Yo, it's Carrie: we shouldn't have borders, Todd? Todd: Right. Just let in. No. Yo, it's Carrie: No, it is funny though, it's funny how living you know, in this world is is so different then. Todd: It is. Yo, it's Carrie: than the standards outside of the world. Todd: Well that's true. It's a little different. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: We do our best. Figure Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: it out. I don't know. Thanks for joining us, Trevor. It was fun. Yo, it's Carrie: I'm so glad you did. Cousin Trevor: Yeah. Yeah, we do. Todd: Yeah, it was good. I I think from here maybe we go into Abraham. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Cousin Trevor: Better. You have to. You go through a bunch more things. Todd: Am I right about Abraham? Yeah, I think we're gonna grab maybe Yo, it's Carrie: I think Abraham's coming. Todd: maybe a couple pertinent pertinent verses out of the Yo, it's Carrie: We have a we have a couple more pages of of genealogy. Todd: Well we might grab a couple pertinent verses out of the rest of eleven and then mostly we're gonna go to twelve, I think. So our next one will be Yo, it's Carrie: No. Todd: twelve for all intents and purposes. Like today's was was basically eleven and what we were gonna talk about in eleven. And once and now once we get into twelve, we're we're we're yeah. Abraham. It's fun. Yo, it's Carrie: Cool. Todd: So I'm excited. I really believe Abraham lived. I don't I think we can stop questioning that. Cousin Trevor: Do you think he really had a kid? Todd: I really do, yeah. I think we're gonna treat it as if it all happened. Yo, it's Carrie: Is it getting close enough to now that we're not we don't have to question it? Todd: I mean I think you could trace him all the way back, right? Yo, it's Carrie: So Todd: The Jews do. I think the Jews think he's real, don't they? Cousin Trevor: Booy. Yo, it's Carrie: Well, there go. Todd: I feel like they would know. I know. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, they know. We can trust them. Todd: Alright, guys. thanks for joining us. Check out the Wildly Opinion News Hours, our other podcast, if you haven't. Yo, it's Carrie: From last week. Todd: Yeah, it'd be from last week. We do those every other week. And then this on our off weeks, we have but we have Beers with Jesus every week. So we fit in the world when we can. But check them out. Check out both. Check out Todd's World.net. My books are on there. There's some fabulous stories. I really gotta start telling people more about them, and I'm planning to. So Yo, it's Carrie: I know. Cousin Trevor: Hour of Babel coming up, right? Todd: I don't know about Tower Bell, we'll see. We'll see. there is a new book coming out, I think. I expect probably late fall. I'm hoping to get it out before Yo, it's Carrie: This Todd: the holidays. Yo, it's Carrie: This is not the next witness. Are you writing something else? Bruh. Todd: Nope, I'm writing it's gonna be a collection of Bible the operable title is Beaten by the Storm Bible Stories for the Broken. Yo, it's Carrie: Ooh, I love that. Todd: And then it's kind of the it'd be in like thirty different Bible stories where we take, you know, kind of a short thing and I did it kind of with the serials originally. Remember that, Trevor? Yeah, you guys remember that. So I'm gonna Yo, it's Carrie: Fantastic. I was gonna say that's cool. Todd: repurpose some of those and then write some new ones and something that I could do more volumes of if I wanted with those same that same format real Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: real easily. That that bit people seem to really Yo, it's Carrie: Or other themes. Todd: Yeah, people really seem to like that format. Where you kinda take a short thing and then kinda I don't know, fictionalizing it. I it kinda get it imaginative. Cousin Trevor: How many you can have in there? Each each zero? Three? One for each Todd: Maybe like thirty? Yeah. I thought that'd be a good Cousin Trevor: month? Todd: I kinda thought I I looked at it as maybe somewhat devotional, because it's probably they're probably, I don't know, ten minute reads or something, maybe. Maybe a little more. I mean there Yo, it's Carrie: Cool. I love that. Todd: were ten minute reads for me when I did so I'm I've tried to keep them in that range. A few of them will be a little longer. So I don't know, we'll see how it goes. But then witness Yo, it's Carrie: Nice. That sounds great. Todd: right after that. Maybe witness concurrently as far as writing it, but I don't know. Yo, it's Carrie: Okay, good. Todd: We'll see. Witnesses next, so All right guys. Yo, it's Carrie: Well, thanks so much for the everything you guys contributed. Todd: Thanks for coming, Trevor. Carrie, always Cousin Trevor: Thanks for having me. Todd: thank you. You're fabulous. And this is gonna come out tomorrow. So everybody enjoy. Tell people about us, send clips, you know. Yo, it's Carrie: Love it. Welcome. Thanks for having me. Woo! I know we're we're working at night. Todd: We no one's gonna hear about us if you don't tell your friends. So I if you if you really enjoy us, I hope that you do send them some clips and turn them on to us. And feel free Yo, it's Carrie: Do share. Cool. Todd: to comment on you know whatever. You know? Whatever Carrie said that bothered you. I I'm sure it wasn't me. All right, guys. Thanks for joining us today. We'll see you next time. Thanks, Yo, it's Carrie: Thanks, Todd. Todd: Trevor. We'll catch you next time when you guest host. All right, see ya. Cousin Trevor: You got it. Yo, it's Carrie: Sounds good.