Latest / STR Unpacked / "I Never Meant to Be in This Industry" Scale Co-Founder Gianpaolo on Building a Movement by Accident

Transcript

"I Never Meant to Be in This Industry" Scale Co-Founder Gianpaolo on Building a Movement by Accident · STR Unpacked

• Ben: Today's guest has one of those journeys that only makes sense in hindsight. He started out in architecture, got caught in the 2008 financial crisis and ended up in Barcelona and somehow accidentally found himself at the epicentre of the short-term rental boom at exactly the moment the industry was about to explode. He spent years at the centre of that growth and in 2021 he co-founded Scale. Now a leading education and events brand in the short-term rental world with 24 events across eight countries and thousands of operators in its community. I'm genuinely excited for this one. Jampe a la, welcome to Fiche. Gianpaolo: I'm really excited to be here with you, Ben. How are you? Ben: I am very well. How are you doing today? Gianpaolo: Busy because we have a conference really at the end of April. We have one in Madrid. So we are quite busy to put this together. Ben: Excellent. But I with 24 events a year, I imagine you're always weeks away from a conference. So I wanted to kind of take it back to the start of the origin story, if you like. So can you take me back right to the beginning? So you obviously trained as an architect, 2008 hit. But what actually happened? How on earth does starting up as an architect? Gianpaolo: More or less, yes. Ben: land you to being at the heart of the short-term mental industry in Barcelona. Gianpaolo: Total accident, would say, as you said, was a total accident. No, know, in 2008, was just landed in Barcelona for I'd say, 12 months in. I was working as an interior designer for one of the many studios that were in Barcelona this time. And when the crisis hit, it was September 2008, more or less. Ben: Yeah. Gianpaolo: I found myself without a job for one day to the other and this was really, really, really bad. The only thing I was able to do this time was working in the construction industry. So I tried to find anything related with this and it was really hard. So the only thing I was able to find back then was ⁓ a job in a real estate company that was also owning. Ben: Yeah. Gianpaolo: buildings. So I accidentally, it was an accident, start working for this company. In theory was ⁓ as an architect doing my job. But I found in a couple of days that wasn't like this. It was more a commercial gig. So I was there to sell something that wasn't sellable this time. And and to rent those apartments that were super small in super dark. It's like, I wouldn't live there in my life. But accidentally, the wife of this guy, so the manager of this company said, you know what, we are owning these buildings. And I heard that the rent into a property tourist is better than renting to local people. And I said, whatever. I'm working for you. Whatever you say, I'm going to do. And I said, okay, so you know, Gianpaolo, you need to find the way to rent to tourists and say, I have no idea. Okay, so here we go. Let's try to find what is the way forward to get tourists instead of people from Barcelona. So I was accidentally entered in the shorter rental business because in... Ben: You Gianpaolo: matter of what three months I had to put together cleanings, find a way to rent those properties in Airbnb booking. And that was my job from when from one day I went the day before I was trying to sell them and the day after I was, you know, renting to tourists. It was a success because, know, Ben: You Gianpaolo: quite large, I say 50 units. ⁓ for ⁓ in market that was, ⁓ it booming, it wasn't like, ⁓ nowadays Barcelona there were like maybe 1,000 units, maybe. And a portfolio with 50 units was quite good. you know, ⁓ it always fully booked. And this is how everything started, you know, then year on year, ⁓ I experience, ⁓ I... I understand what are the good things and the bad things of being a property manager. You know, we met a couple of weeks ago and we shared a lot of stories. So being a property manager has a lot of positive things, but a lot of bad things. So this is, you know, something that really changed my life because it wasn't planned. my... Ben: Yeah. Yeah. Gianpaolo: my idea wasn't to be a property manager, was to be an architect. So then, I fall in love with this business, this industry, I start meeting people, learning things, the technology, and especially technology was one of the things that moved me forward, and now I'm really still connected with the technology side of short term rentals that is my passion. Ben: Amazing and kind of on that technology side taking it back to like I guess those first three months when you had zero experience of short term rentals and were just told go for it. This was presumably pre Airbnb and pre booking.com really coming into apartments. So how how did you do it? Gianpaolo: We have. Manoli, you know, and still today, look, and this is not a strain thing. So we still find people that they don't have any, any tool, anything just, you know, Excel files and, you know, updating calendars with, you know, I am updating calendars over different platforms and something that is in 2026 and say, how is this possible? And there are plenty of managers doing like this. So back then was like this. We had like, Ben: Yeah Gianpaolo: Booking.com wasn't an option because I remember we start using Airbnb. Airbnb was opened in Spanish market around 2011, 2000. I think one of the first listings was 2009, 2010 maybe. I think I remember we started using Airbnb seriously about 2012, but wasn't an option in 2008. So we had our own website that was... quite shitty actually, but it was super. So all the bookings were under percent direct. So the job of a property manager, and this is something that I really enjoyed is, was marketing. most of the time we weren't welcoming people, most of the job was marketing. So creating content, creating pictures, creating posts on Facebook. Long ago there was only Facebook. So... We were creating content on Facebook. We were creating campaigns on Google Ads. Google Ads was a big thing. So this was the only way to fish ⁓ tourists and to have them come into our apartments. But it was really successful because we were always under percent and possibly over under percent of occupation. All year round, this was crazy. So if you think about this in 2026, it's like, hey, we were solid and the percent fully booked all months, all days, all weeks, Insane. Ben: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you tell someone now in 2026, you've got 50 units in central Barcelona, you're 100 % occupied and 100 % direct bookings, I don't think they'd fully believe you, you know, like it's impossible now. Gianpaolo: No, No, because there are a lot of competition. are a lot of, you know, even I'd say they've we were doing short term rental in a stupid way, I would say, because, you know, there were no pricing tools or this kind of thing. were pricing like, hey, today is 100 and tomorrow, let's say. So we were changing prices once per week, possibly. maybe once per month. So there was no dynamic pricing or nor, you know, we weren't following the dynamic of the market. We were just like, hey, we're pressing this. And so we were looking at other, I mean, a competitor same area, this 100, so let's say 95 for us. So this was our revenue management, you know. So it... It was different, it was different definitely. has nothing to do with the actual scenarios. Nothing to do, absolutely nothing. Ben: Yeah, so this would have been, how long would you have been in that place for? Gianpaolo: In property management, say. Ben: Yeah, so like from kind of what you'd guess you would have started around 2008 and then... Gianpaolo: I would say six years, approximately. I was doing different companies, doing more or less the same thing. And then I said, more, it's not for me anymore. So I had to move on because it was like, know, being property manager is a full-time job. It's like being a doctor, you're 24 hours around people looking for you, calling you, I need something. Ben: Okay. Okay. I know, yeah. Gianpaolo: do you have availability, answering emails and doing things. So it was quite stressful. that's why I, at certain point, I had the opportunity to jump on board on one of the first large PMSs that was based in Barcelona was Kegel. And so I had the really good opportunity to be one of the first employee there. yes. So this is where my passion for technology really came out and said, okay. Ben: Uh-huh. Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Gianpaolo: This is for me. I started selling PMSs and I'm still ⁓ engaged with this role of selling PMSs and talking about PMSs because it's really something that I really enjoyed and I really still like. Ben: Mm-hmm. Which makes sense because I guess you've seen, which unlike I guess most people in our industry now, you've seen what the reality is if you're operating without a PMS, right? Gianpaolo: ⁓ yes. Yes. That's why I, you know, this was one of the advantages of being, having been working in as a, as a property manager, because I knew the reality. So trying to sell something to some fellow property managers. I look, I've been there. I know what your, your pains are and I know how the software is going to make your life easier. And actually the success rate was really high because, because of this, for the empathy, no. Ben: Yeah. Gianpaolo: when you start chatting with someone that is doing the business you were doing for a long time, and you're trying to support them, to add them with something that really is going to change the way they're doing business. And it was tough time also because at the beginning now, something like a PMS is a standard tool in the toolkit of any property manager. Ben: Mm-hmm. Gianpaolo: not even conceivable to start a business and short term rental without a PMS, even if you have two units and people say, oh yeah, whatever, I pay the money that for a PMS is the minimum. But back then people were, oh, you know, this is not for me. And I said, how is possible? I know I have a student here updating calendars manually. And do you think a system that is automatic is better than someone updating calendars manually? Oh yes, it's cheaper. So over and over, receiving this kind of answer was like, how is this possible? People still think like this. Now, of course, the situation is completely different and this kind of discussion are, I would say, almost impossible, but not rare. But not rare. because still there are property managers, especially in Southern Europe, Italy, Spain and France, especially France, I would say, that still operate without any technology, zero. So no PMS, no channel manager, no nothing. They just run properties. ⁓ Ben: I just can't imagine that, you know, I cannot imagine that. I mean, I guess if that's all they know, you know, they're clearly making it work if they've got businesses. So fair play, I guess. So I guess from then with Kegel, was that how you then went and ended up presumably attending a lot of events then? Gianpaolo: Yes, all started there, yes. I mean, was traveling a lot. And not only for Kegel, because I worked for other companies doing the same field. Ben: haha Gianpaolo: Yes, I was traveling, I saw a lot of things and I really enjoyed events because I would say I went to all the short-term rental events from 2012 until before COVID, I would say, all of them, including other events that are not properly 100 % focused on short-term rentals, let's say WTM or ITB or... Other events in Italy, Spain and France, also a couple maybe. Yes, I really enjoyed it because it's where you meet people, you find what your competitors are doing and there is where you understand what are the technologies in short-term rentals and in the tourism industry in general. Ben: Okay, so then I guess you started scaling 2021, which seemed like a pretty good pause in the industry, what we've covered and everything. So how did that all come about? Gianpaolo: Yes. I mean, is the roots of the of scale is are deeper than what you expected because we didn't just say tomorrow we're going to launch our conferences now. My story and this is a thing that we skipped in 2013. So, no, after. Yeah, in 2013, I founded my own PMS company. So. Ben: Okay. Gianpaolo: This is something that I really enjoyed that I had my own software company for three or four years. Yes. I wouldn't say it was a success because it wasn't. Actually it was a big failure. We're still paying for this. But it gave me the chance to, know, being a sort of doing things my own way. know, and amongst the very different things we did, we started organizing meetups for short-term rental operators. Ben: Okay. Gianpaolo: all about technology. So one of the scope was to put together people and display showing what we are doing. So and little by little, we become a sort of, you know, passion doing these meetups, these small events, talking about technology, talking about regulation. And we really enjoyed that because we've been doing this for four or five years, especially mostly in Barcelona. We did some in Rome. We did some in Italy. And let's say The Italian branch becomes bigger and bigger and bigger since 2017. I met another guy in Italy. He oh, I was following you on LinkedIn. think, yes. He said, oh, we can do something together here in Italy. I said, let's try. And we put together a conference. It was the first large short-term rental company, sorry, conference in Italy. And we did a conference in Rome. before just before COVID, we put together 1000 people and was crazy for Italy and for the short-term rental industry back then. And we said, wow, this is incredible. So we need to keep on doing this because we put together something that makes sense. Everyone was happy, lot of sponsor, everything was okay. We nailed it. We need to scale this project because it sense. And one of the... the characteristic of this project that is all the speakers were property managers. No sales pitches, no, it was just property managers. And they said, this was the difference. And then the same year I met Damian for the first time. So at one of these conferences, we said, ⁓ this conference is quite shit. And he said, well, yes, ⁓ you're right. This conference is really shit. So we said, he was running the book direct show. So another... Ben: Okay, yeah Gianpaolo: branch of conferences and we said, ⁓ we should do something together. So let's talk about that. So this, this is before COVID. So during COVID we, we, we keep on doing things together. So he supported my, my conferences. I supported his conferences. And by the end of 2020, said, you know what? People want to meet and learn again after COVID. What about we do something that is going to be really different and really Ben: Mm-hmm. Gianpaolo: groundbreaking and this is the beginning of scale. So we start planning, we start ⁓ designing something that wasn't there to provide something that was really unique. we were, ⁓ mean, thinking the same thing. So what do you about this conference? And he said, ⁓ this quite poor because it all about sponsor, about property management. So we said, there is something that we can improve here. So he was at the time we was running the book direct show and I was running this conference in Italy that was called AUST B2B. And then the COVID hit very hard on short term rental and everywhere. And during this period of time we were working together. So I was helping him with the book direct show. He was helping me with the... all the online events that we run throughout the COVID period. So was a sort of collaboration that we keep on doing things together between 2020 we said, look, at the end of COVID, I think people are going to love to meet and to share experience together because after a couple of years without having a conference and really happy to share data or a lot of things they've been thinking during the COVID would be great to have a conference like this. So we put together concept of scale when we launch it in 2022, know, the rest is story. Ben: Yeah. And it obviously, it grew really quickly. like how, what was that like in the inside, I guess, because I mean, as a company, it's not that old. And you're doing so many conferences all the time, right? So what was that journey like? Yeah. Gianpaolo: I mean Yeah It's a roller coaster I would say we started with the Initial project was to have a one-off conference. So once per year big one But we realized that wasn't like this after One week So so the first one was in May 22. So in June, we were always real We actually realized that oh no, we need to do more. So the very first year we run three because we Ben: You Gianpaolo: We did Scale Italia and Scale France, same year. Day after, there were four. The year three we went from four to eight. And the year after, 11. So, as I said, when you have 11 conferences running in one year, it means that you are preparing the following one. Like the day... you close one and the day after you're working on the following. And there were period of the year that we were working on three different conferences at the same time. So this was crazy. That's why during 25, we decided to sort of slow down a bit and we let some conferences down because it was literally impossible to run all these conferences together. Absolutely impossible. So now we are focused on the key markets in Europe. Italy, Spain, France, UK, Eastern Europe, that is surprisingly very, very good market and is giving a lot of positive vibes. And Middle East, that unfortunately these days is not in best shape, but hopefully we are able to do something really good in September when we're planning to still planning to have a skin Middle East, hopefully. Ben: Yeah. Gianpaolo: If it's not possible, it's not because we don't want to have the conferences because the market doesn't allow us to do it. Because there are a lot of things that are out of our control and unfortunately flights and tourism visas and things these days is crazy. Ben: Yeah, I mean, I was going to ask about that because I mean, I think the thing that's so interesting about scale is how you have gone into so many different territories. know, I think Eastern Europe is really interesting because I agree with you. Like I've traveled a lot of Eastern Europe and I think it's a hugely untouched resource, not just in short term rentals in so many ways. So I love that you guys are there. Gianpaolo: Yes. Yes. Ben: but also the fact you've been to South Africa and the Middle East as well. I mean, I guess with the Middle East one, do you have an idea at this point with ticket sales or is it just you're gonna see how it pans out and then take a call closer to the time? Gianpaolo: This is a fun story. Most of our conferences were in Europe, or less. Italy, Spain, France. Ben: Yeah. Gianpaolo: Even UK, are similar, you know, vision emissions and I would say quite similar culture. So the European style can, you know, fit all the countries, more or less. need to adapt one thing or the other or the tone or the focus, but more or less is the same. More or less, very more than very less than more. But, you know, it's not a problem. We approach with same, you know, Vision and mission scale Middle East and also scale South Africa because we say we are European there is you know lot of experts so it's going to be like same thing and no absolutely not. So you have to face the reality that when you enter in a market like this that is so far away the culture is speaking from your own country or the place where you're living that we said wow this is super different especially on you know Ben: Yeah. Gianpaolo: give us is stupid example. So when, so for instance, if you are engaged with us to be a speaker, we said, Hey, Ben, you're going to be speaker at scale scale UK and say, okay, fine. I'm honored to be a speaker. okay, fine. Thank you very much. So I put your, your, your name picture and everything on, the website and you are confirmed as a speaker in Middle East. This isn't, this is not like this. So when we engage with the speaker and we say, are you confirmed? So absolutely yes. Ben: Yeah. Gianpaolo: And after, no, can say three weeks in, so before starting a conference, people start calling you back and say, are we confirmed? Is it, is it real? this going, is it going live? Say yes. We say you're, you're confirmed. I know I didn't, I don't know. I don't know if I'm confirmed. Say yes. We spoke like seven months ago. So the culture of you need to make sure that people are under percent sure that they are confirmed. And the same with ticket sales. So people are so busy in their stuff that they potentially, and this is something that happened, come the day of the conference, paying cash, say, ⁓ here I am. And they don't care about the cost of the ticket. They just say, ⁓ I heard that there is a conference about short-term rental I want to join. So I was like, okay, boom. And they paid the cash the day of the conference. And this is something that I wasn't expecting that. So this is one of the, same with South Africa. South Africa is a... Ben: Yeah. Gianpaolo: incredibly good markets is I would say one is one of the most incredible markets in in in in the the on the planet I would say because the country is incredibly good people there is lovely people but you know it's far far far far far far away it's like Australia more or less to go to South Africa it's super far away but is on the same time zone of Europe Opposite opposite side of the world but same time zone and this is something that people say ⁓ Wait a minute. Here's is winter. There is summer and they take a flight is long flight But you you go there is this summer so there are a lot of operators that they said ⁓ Especially from Netherlands and Germany. They said ⁓ this is interesting. So there are a lot of operators that are doing part of the season in in in Northen hemisphere and part of the season in the southern hemisphere. So they have peak season all year round. Because when it's winter year, say in Europe, they close and say, okay, I'm moving to south. So and they're doing peak season in that down in South Africa. So this is something that we're so, wow, this is incredible. And this is, this was our original approach to South Africa. said, look, there are going to be loads of short-term rental operators in Europe willing to do the same. And Ben: interesting. Gianpaolo: possibly the sales message that we push out, that was this, come with us to discover South Africa because it's something that makes sense to your business. No, that doesn't work. Absolutely not. And putting together all the people from South Africa was a nightmare because they don't have a meeting point. There is no association. No, there was no association. There was nothing. Ben: You Gianpaolo: there wasn't a meeting point properly designed for short-term rental operators, any size. There wasn't. So when we create something, people say, well, they come to us, we are excited. Thank you very much. It's lovely to have finally a meeting point for short-term rental operators to discuss ⁓ about our industry, what we can do better, what we... Regulations that are coming you are coming from Europe. There are a lot of regulations. So they were really eager to learn from From us from the people coming from the other side of the world To say hey short-term rental there is like this and is going through these challenges and they are coming to your country as well Sooner or later be prepared and they were super happy and super grateful about that But still for us running a conference on the other side of the world was really This actually we dropped the ball in 20 last year was the last one. Not sure we are dropping forever. Possibly we are taking over in future. Not sure. Depends. There are many things that many factors that are influencing our decision these days. But, you know, we prefer to at the moment to focus on the most important markets. Those that are Ben: Yeah. Gianpaolo: especially these days needs our support like Italy, Spain, especially because they are going through a tremendous transformation, especially for regulations. We want to be here to support our community and to give them tools. This is something coming. I cannot share too much here, but you know, they, they, they, they, they, mission goes beyond the conferences and education. It's going to be a lot, a lot more. Ben: Yeah. Yeah, because I think, and I completely understand ⁓ your point around kind of Spain and I understand why you're doing it in scale of Spaniel because obviously kind of an interest of mine is the regulation side of things, but just because I think like... we need to be on this. I just don't think enough people are fully understanding what's coming down the track. And I think Spain's a really interesting example, right? Cause you've got the second biggest tourism economy in terms of percentage of GDP in Europe. And yet they're the ones that are most punishing towards that side of our economy, particularly around short-term rentals. And I think... Gianpaolo: in Europe. Ben: But like, I just find that such an interesting paradoxical point. And I just wonder what the future holds there for them, really. Gianpaolo: Look, this is something that we, I mean, it's not something new. Possibly most people realize that because it's quite evident. But we realized yesterday, yes, we were in discussion with the president of one of the leading short-term rental association here in Spain. And we said, oh, you know, every day there is sort of, you know, they are organizing the content that goes against short-term rentals in Spain. if you have some sort of Google alerts and you put the standard keywords like short-term rental, vacation rental, holiday rentals, and this kind of thing in Spanish, in Italian, in French, whatever, you're going to see that every day there are news, even on newspaper that are not about tourism, random. with the same pattern, it's all about a short-term rental here, short-term rental there. they are putting bad name on short-term rentals. They are guilty for this, guilty for this other. They are doing this bad. So never stressing on the positive side of short-term rental. It's always on the negative side of short-term rental. And we said, okay, this is something strange. So we said, you know what? We want to run a sort of research. Here, AI helped us a lot. Ben: Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. Gianpaolo: And we put together a 15 pages report that to say that is not a minor topic, this is something really big. And we discovered that in Europe, there is an organization that is behind this. So their job is to create content that goes against short-term rental. And they have ⁓ crazy amount of money, we're talking about more than 100 million, to create content. on media, on newspapers, even financing local associations like ⁓ neighbor associations or ⁓ plenty. I mean, this is crazy. The amount of people involved in this, that is a machine, proper machine, because it is an organized thing. It's an attack on short-term rentals to tear down short-term rentals. So from the upside down. So the thing is, look, I'm going to share the report because it's a report that we are, it's something that we are working together with the main short-term mental association on the base of this discovery, but something to say, wow, this is insane. So there is an organization behind this. So we're going to release this report, it's going to be in Spanish, in Italian, in French, in English, of course. And with the support of local association to say, oh, this, Ben: Please do, please do, yeah. Gianpaolo: is actually pressing short-term rental and operators, of course, the professional operators. And now politics has been involved in this mechanism. That is the insane part, because there are personal interests and lobbies that are pushing on this to eliminate short-term rentals. Not hosts. Organized property management company. This is different. So if you are a property manager, of doing running professional operation with like 10 plus units be aware because there is a plan to destroy your business and it's there it's clear there there's a plan it's not conspiracy or conspiratorial paranoid complots no no this is real and it's coming and you will see that so Spain Italy France and Netherlands Germany we have example for most of the most touristic industries in Europe is there and is coming. So be aware. Ben: I'd love to see that report. I can't say I'm surprised to be honest because Like I always point to the Netherlands as an example where since they've cut, well it's now 15 days, but when they cut it to 30 days, I mean obviously you're not, I think they dropped something like 54 % stock when they it to 30 days. But in the period of time that they've had a 30 day limit in Amsterdam, the house prices have gone up 34 % within that time, right? And this is the thing that everybody talks about. Gianpaolo: Another idea? Ben: Barcelona is a great example. It's one to 1.5 % housing stock. That's not enough to shift the housing prices and rent prices to the levels that we've seen in Barcelona. And I just feel like our entire industry is being used as a scapegoat. So yeah, I'm so glad you've done that. Gianpaolo: Absolutely not. Absolutely, yes. You know, numbers are playing on our advantage. This is super clear. But sometimes, most of the time, I would say, there is no ⁓ unique voice that goes against these attacks. And this is the problem, because we think that association are enough. No, it's not. ⁓ Ben: Yeah. Gianpaolo: Even the European Short-term Rentals Association, they did a great job to lobby for the short-term rental in Europe, in Brussels. But it's not enough because the problem is global, yes, but we need to fight it locally because the people that distribute this content or work against short-term rental acts locally. So we have a problem. I don't know if it's something that makes sense to share, I'll do. Yesterday, I tried to anonymize it. So in one of the most-touristic cities in Spain, one of the associations finds out that there was a plan to attack short-term rentals with bombs. Yes, and one of these bombs were successful. one of a couple of units were destroyed. ⁓ Suffer a lot of damages. So we're talking about many thousand. This is because there are powers that are telling to neighbors, to people that are living in the cities that short-term rentals is stealing. ⁓ properties to the market and this is a pain, is wrong, we need to fight this because short-term rental is short-term rental there. So people, one day they wake up and okay, now all of us have short-term rentals. So they are vandals in the end because they destroy doors, they burn things, they put bombs and this is something that can happen everywhere. where there is an organized, you know, citizens of any tourist city can say, hey, fuck short-term rental. We go against them. Ben: Yeah, well, I mean, it happened. I don't know if you saw it because it wasn't widely reported, but there was a situation in Granada, which from what I understand about Granada is a city where they are desperate for more tourists because they are just bored of people being bussed in from Malaga to see the Alhambra and then go again. Right. It is something that short-term rentals can really help that city. become more kind of established and bring it much more kind of economic footprint. And there was an attack overnight, I think about six weeks ago, where they destroyed 500 key boxes throughout the city. Gianpaolo: Yeah. Yeah. Ben: And I'm sure that when you're hearing that the same thing probably jumps to you as you think of the what that would have been like when you were working as a property manager, right? Like what you would have had to have dealt with in that moment. But I think it's interesting because I think you can make a very good argument in Spain with the coastal cities like on the Mediterranean. Like, yes, there is too much over tourism. That makes sense. It's not just short term rentals. It's tourism in general. But it's interesting to me that it's happening in the Gianpaolo: Yes. Ben: touristy cities. Yes, Granada still has tourism but it's not the same as Malaga, right? Gianpaolo: No, no, no, but you know, there are opposite situation that, know, Spain is, as you said, the second tourism industry in the touristic industry in that receive most tourists in Europe after France, I think. Yeah. I'm not sure if for 25, which was the first or second anyway. You know, there are countries like this that they need sort of reduce or control tourism. I think this is super legitimate because I mean, sometimes too much because, you know, even in places that you say, I'm going to go to and going to do to do an Ike somewhere away from the city. And this is packed of people everywhere. everything I suffer from this. massification like last Sunday, that was I tried to go somewhere. said, I had to say, no, it's impossible because the city where I tried to go, literally, that doesn't accept the more tourists. It was overcrowded and wasn't something that, know, ⁓ fancy city was a small town outside Barcelona. They say, no, impossible. Everything is closed. that all the parkings were over the top. And this is insane. And on the other side, you have economies that are really eager to accept short-term rental operators. one example is Abu Dhabi. They really want to have operators go in there, do business there. know, short-term rentals depends on where is a pain or is in trouble. or on the other side is an opportunity. still, our South America, for instance, is another region of the world where shorter rental is still good to do business, I think. So, depends. Ben: Yeah. So what's next for scale? Do you think? Gianpaolo: Oof, a lot of things. More conferences for sure. We are trying to go beyond the single countries. We wanted to do something that goes a bit further. So this year, the first one is we did scale with AI. That is something that is a vertical conference about how AI can really help you to scale your short-term business. Ben: You Gianpaolo: And we're going to have more on the basis of some researches that we did recently. Hopefully, in we're going to do more verticals and hopefully new countries. Not sure. And a lot of things that I cannot disclose now, but we are working on something really exciting and it's going to be, hopefully, really groundbreaking for short-term rentals. Ben: I'm excited to see it. mean, it seems that everything that you touch turns to gold. So Gianpaolo: No, no, no, far from that. I'd love to know it. No, not yet. Possibly in the future. Ben: So, but I'm excited to see what happens next because I scale it for me as a company that appeared to be one of those ones that came out of nowhere and then suddenly was everywhere. So, and the conferences that you guys run are up there with the best. So I'm very, I'm at your one in Spain at the end of April and I'm at your one in. Gianpaolo: Thank you. Yeah, couple of weeks, 20 days. Ben: Yeah, not, not well, like we said, everything's presumably a couple of weeks away for you, right? And I'll be at your one in Brighton as well, because that's just down the road for me. ⁓ So I'm excited to for those. But mostly for me, thank you so much for taking the time to come on. Like. Gianpaolo: Yeah. My pleasure. Ben: I said at the top of the story, I find your story about how you got into short term rentals just absolutely fascinating and then what you've done and how dynamic you've been within the space I just think is absolutely fascinating. Now you're trapped, that's what it does to you, right? You can't leave. Gianpaolo: it And now I'm trapped. I don't know what to do. Ben: Yeah, well it's not a bad place to be, is I think the most friendly industry going so you know you've got that. Gianpaolo: Yeah. And yes, it was very exciting. Now is, yeah, we are in a moment that there are a lot of opportunities, but at the same time, a lot of challenges. So we need to stay ahead of the two things, the opportunities and the challenges. And challenges, unfortunately, are really, really hard and are going to it everywhere quite badly. I know. Ben: Thanks Gianpaolo: Let's work together. This is the only thing is let's unite and work together and make our day interest of short-term rental in a... I called it an ecosystemic way because we are getting there, but we are still not an ecosystem. So it's something that we should work as an ecosystem or an integrated is everyone here as a part in this to play and we need to play together because... Ben: Mm-hmm. Gianpaolo: the moment we are not playing together. is my vision. Ben: Yeah, I totally, totally agree with that. And I'm glad that somebody is leading the charge on that. So I think from the whole industry, thank you. ⁓ And thank you for me for your time. ⁓ And obviously you're to be found at every event that you run, I assume. And for those coming to the short stay summit in April, will you also be attending that as well if they want to find you or do you not go to? Gianpaolo: You're very, you're very white. Not me personally, is Damian going to be there? Yes, so Damian and Katie are going to be there, so if you want to meet Damian in person, they are going to be visible for sure. Ben: Uh-huh. Perfect, perfect. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for your time and I'll see you in Madrid. Gianpaolo: You're very welcome. Ben: Ciao.