Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 391 - The Oswald Puzzle Redux

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JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 391 - The Oswald Puzzle Redux · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: M h.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Revent from any sage's juice, tear up the true down.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: A rat from the junis a mon different terrible things.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: The food is in the pure, when the sea.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: It's rainy nights, shill the lights, the breaks.
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: At side, never real rides, spend of the basting you
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  Speaker 3: and the buck red free you from to see.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Night.
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: And here we go.
• 1:22
  Speaker 4: What's up, everybody? Welcome in, Welcome in.
• 1:24
  Speaker 5: This is The Lone Goming Podcast, Episode three and ninety one,
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  Speaker 5: The Oswald Puzzle, kind of part three. I called it
• 1:31
  Speaker 5: the Reducts just because it sounded cool. We got Larry
• 1:37
  Speaker 5: Hancock and David Boiling back on the show, the authors
• 1:40
  Speaker 5: of the Oswald Puzzle. They have updated the book and
• 1:45
  Speaker 5: it will be coming out sometime this summer. We'll get
• 1:48
  Speaker 5: the details here in a second. From you guys, welcome back.
• 1:51
  Speaker 5: How are you guys doing.
• 1:53
  Speaker 6: I'm doing all right, Larry, how are you me too?
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: It's spring. We finally got a little rain things for
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: I'm excited, ye.
• 2:03
  Speaker 5: Larry and David always as always, you know, looking mighty
• 2:06
  Speaker 5: handsome in that Dallas.
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: Is there a Dallas action hat or quick hits Dallas action? Okay?
• 2:12
  Speaker 6: Yeah?
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  Speaker 5: Is Doug on do we know he might be somewhere
• 2:17
  Speaker 5: in the comments. I see we have a new members
• 2:21
  Speaker 5: who welcome in.
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: Brian Smith just became a member.
• 2:27
  Speaker 5: We had the double B purchase memberships for ten people
• 2:32
  Speaker 5: Joe fifteen fifteen.
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  Speaker 4: Really wow, thank you so much, thank you, Brenda. Wow
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: wow wow wow wow. We have a David Fairy sound
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: effect for that. There we go.
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: But Larry, how was the gardening going?
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: And it's going really great. I just collect things, my
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: wife plants them, I water them, and then slowly over
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: the summer we watch them die. But it's good for
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: a couple of weeks. It's Oklahoma, it's southwestern Oklahoma.
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, just down a little bit out there, Larry.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny because my girlfriend is like,
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: not the green hand, not the green finger, and Joe
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: green thumb, green thoam. Maybe I'm not either, and I'm like,
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  Speaker 3: when I was in Italy, I was like, did you
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: want to the plants? And I'm always like having to
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: order them because she doesn't know what to do. So oh,
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: it's it's always a team effort, right, Larry.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, Mostly she plants and term then on whether
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: they die or not is my fault.
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: Of course it's always our fault in.
• 3:51
  Speaker 5: Hey, you guys are back here to talk about the
• 3:54
  Speaker 5: new updated edition of The Oswald Puzzle. And when is
• 4:00
  Speaker 5: When can we expect the updated version? Because I've seen
• 4:03
  Speaker 5: a couple of different dates, so I don't want to
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  Speaker 5: speak out of turn.
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  Speaker 1: It should actually be available. It's on pre order now,
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: and I think April twenty first is still the ship date,
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: and actually it's now moved. It's it's available for pre order,
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: not just on Amazon but most book salersound. I even
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: found it on eBay for pre order, which is kind
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  Speaker 1: of amazing. And I want to make clear that we're
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: talking about this is the second edition. Is the paperback.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: The hardcover is not going to have this in it.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: It's the second edition paperback, and within a two or
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: three weeks after it ships, the publisher will put the
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: two additional chapters into the Kendle version, so both the
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: paperback and at that point Kendall will have the updates.
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: Now, Larry Well, will Rex be responsible for any delays?
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: That's David. We give all the credit to Rex. I
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: don't really think we should blame anything on Rex. Now,
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  Speaker 1: it's okay, I'll take the responsibility although after having gone
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: through Rex as an editor, you know, maybe I'm being
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: too easy on him. David.
• 5:20
  Speaker 6: I mean this, Hey, this is Doug Campbell.
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  Speaker 4: Doug is in the House's Douglas.
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  Speaker 6: Whoa the next big TV?
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: WHOA seventy two wins? She's watching on them.
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: It's almost as tall as as David.
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  Speaker 6: That is. That's impressive.
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  Speaker 1: And incidents, that's almost the number of new pages in
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  Speaker 1: the second edition, what I think is seventy four David.
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  Speaker 6: I mean we have what ninety eight footnotes seventy four pages.
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  Speaker 1: So it's pretty substantial.
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  Speaker 3: Wait, the number of pages you added to the two
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: Chins or the number of pages Doug has on his
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: new TV are.
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  Speaker 1: Almost the same.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, almost.
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  Speaker 1: Sheer coincidence. Now really.
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  Speaker 3: End, But David, good to see you again, of course, Larry,
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  Speaker 3: always a pleasure. I definitely missed your presence and your
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: your your funny wife in Dallas. It was a little different, uh,
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: but still a good time was had.
• 6:31
  Speaker 6: But yeah, yeah, I kind of missed it this year.
• 6:36
  Speaker 6: You know. It's just it's one of those almost when
• 6:41
  Speaker 6: but ended up not going you know.
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  Speaker 3: Just yeah, yeah, I hear you, I hear you.
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  Speaker 4: Information Larry, is there going to be another lancer this year.
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  Speaker 4: You have you heard yet?
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  Speaker 1: I really don't. I've kind of stepped away from that.
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  Speaker 1: Gabriella is running it. I have not heard from her
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  Speaker 1: since the last conference. Uh So, I honestly don't know.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: I talk with Deborah, but she's not involved either, So
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  Speaker 1: I just don't really have any insight.
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I don't think we all do. So.
• 7:17
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I think the price of jet fuel is going
• 7:20
  Speaker 6: to be up there too, so probably be a lot
• 7:22
  Speaker 6: more zoom sessions, pre recorded sessions, you know, yeah, or like.
• 7:27
  Speaker 5: This that you can come on and present your shit
• 7:30
  Speaker 5: and everybody can hear you, just for free, and they
• 7:32
  Speaker 5: don't have to leave their living room or their bedroom,
• 7:34
  Speaker 5: or they can watch your big beautiful faces on a
• 7:37
  Speaker 5: seventy two inch television.
• 7:39
  Speaker 6: Only some of us could do that, you know, rich enough.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: To take that. Well, that's happening all over the Daly Plaza.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: Folks are having their summer conference and it's David and
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: I will be on there virtually, and a lot of
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: their presenters are on their remote. You know. That's just
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: the way it's. That's the way it's moving, especially with
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: the all the challenges even for internet travel.
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and Larry, I don't know if
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: you heard. I dealt with a flight cancellation on Friday,
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: and I was dealt with five hours of delays on Sunday,
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: and it was like, oh my goodness, it was like
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: and this was before all the flight fuel increases, but
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: oh my god. Just it's it's a commitment to go,
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: and you know, you go because the camaraderie and uh,
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: you know, meeting with like mild like mattered people like
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: I you know, I did a panel with Matt Crumpton,
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: who I know, you guys are familiar with friends friends
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: of the show and Jess Connell and and we had
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: a great presentation. You know, I got talked to Bill
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: Zimpach for a while, but you know, Gary Aguilar. But
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: it's it's a commitment and it's sometimes a lot you know.
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: Oh, Bart's and Bart's here too, up Park Camp.
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  Speaker 6: The UK.
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: We got all the in here.
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: Oh we got Alan Dale in the house too. Archives.
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: Andre is what I called him accidentally, Andre.
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  Speaker 6: Dale left the call of that from knowing.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Well, he's more cultured, he's from the East Coast.
• 9:21
  Speaker 7: I mean, come on, yeah, I know, but you know
• 9:26
  Speaker 7: more yeah, oh wow, all right, so let's let's get
• 9:32
  Speaker 7: into the book a little bit.
• 9:33
  Speaker 5: I know you've all you guys have faced a little
• 9:37
  Speaker 5: bit of blowback due to the subject matter of the
• 9:41
  Speaker 5: book overall, without probably the benefit of most people criticizing
• 9:46
  Speaker 5: it ever having read it. Actually, you know, they're on
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  Speaker 5: principle only. You know, it's it's one of these things
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  Speaker 5: that if you believe there was a conspiracy, then Oswald
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  Speaker 5: has to be totally innocent, right, And they don't really
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  Speaker 5: want to try to get inside the mind of this guy.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, he's a guy, he's a human being, just
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  Speaker 5: like anybody else, and trying to figure out his motivations
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  Speaker 5: for certain things.
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  Speaker 4: Is of course half the battle here.
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  Speaker 5: You know, he had a difficult childhood, overbearing mother, no father,
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  Speaker 5: There's a big gap in age between him and his brothers,
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  Speaker 5: moved frequently. Kind of when that kind of thing happens,
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  Speaker 5: you know, generally you tend to turn inwards, you know,
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  Speaker 5: and become a little awkward, a little standoffish, really not
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  Speaker 5: being able to trust anybody except yourself type of thing.
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  Speaker 5: And I think a lot of the criticism that you
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  Speaker 5: guys got from the book really wasn't fair in my estimation,
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  Speaker 5: because I think it's important that we try to figure
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  Speaker 5: out exactly who Lee Harvey Oswald was. I mean, it's
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  Speaker 5: it's going to help us figure out the entire picture
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  Speaker 5: if we can do that, you know.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that that was one of the
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  Speaker 1: things that drove us, and I do think that a
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  Speaker 1: lot of people that have kind of I mean, we
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  Speaker 1: have a stereotype of Oswal that's been in place now
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  Speaker 1: for what seventy years, and we have a stereotype of
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  Speaker 1: Oswald that was created by the Warren Commission, And we
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: have a stereotype of Oswald that most of us was
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  Speaker 1: believed was created initially to be false. That you know,
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  Speaker 1: the way he's was positioned by the Warren Commission, and
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  Speaker 1: the official storyline institutionally was false. So you're fighting a
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  Speaker 1: battle from the very beginning against a correct perception of
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  Speaker 1: Oswald because he was positioned from I won't say from
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: day one, but close to day one a picture of
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: him was being painted, and then immediately I think the
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: pushback to that gave a contrariant so people took their
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: positions early on. I mean, certainly within the first two
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  Speaker 1: or three years, he was one thing or the other
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  Speaker 1: and trying to put him in, you know, into a
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  Speaker 1: more reasonable position in the middle is a hard struggle
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: because at that point in time, you're Friday in against
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  Speaker 1: two well established views that are like one hundred and
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: eighty degrees out. So yeah, I think we expected that, Rob.
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, when you're talking about Oswald and you think, Okay, well,
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  Speaker 5: there's really only two possibilities here that either he's truly
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  Speaker 5: a Marxist who is pro Castro as he portrays, or
• 12:45
  Speaker 5: he's putting on an act. You know, that's really the
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  Speaker 5: only two possibilities we have here. And where does the
• 12:55
  Speaker 5: evidence take us for that?
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: You know?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah? And I think what we dealt with, let's say
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: summer of nineteen sixty three, let's focus then on New
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: Orleans and Oswald in New Orleans. What I have not
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: seen is any really straightforward response to what we now
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: have very well documented is that Oswald was arrested in
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: a street demendation for conflicts with some anti Castro Cubans. Okay,
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: he went into jail overnight, and the first thing that
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: he did, at his own initiative, okay, was to ask
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: to talk to doubt the police police and then talk
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: to the FBI. When he talked to the FBI. He
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: lied to the FBI immediately, right, heads up. Okay, so
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: it's very difficult for me to accept that he's in
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: play from the FBI, and he's lied to the FBI immediately.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: He's not just lyned them, he's sending them off on
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  Speaker 1: a wild goose chase that they will follow for the
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: better part of sixty days, rather than putting surveillance on Oswald,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: rather than identifying, you know, going to their sources and go,
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: you know, here's a Cuban associated guy. You know, let's
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: all over them, right. That doesn't happen. The Cubans, anti
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: Castro Cubans who confronted him on the street don't meet
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: him in an alley and beat him up, you know,
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: because they're not exactly gentle or you know, their feelings
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: are pretty passionate. So for like sixty days, it's almost
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: like he sells this story and the FBI is off
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: investigating this highdel character, not Lee Harvey Oswald, and so
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Oswald gets a af re reign whether or not he
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: you know, obviously he made a decision to lie to
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: the FBI, which at some point in time is going
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: to buy him, you know, they're not. You don't lie
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: to the FBI and use their resources, and they take
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: it gracefully. So he knows, you know, he's doing that
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: to get him off his back, and it worked well.
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: Larry, let me ask you this, well, do you think
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: he anticipated it would bite him in the back or
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: do you think he was just so naive that he
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: think it would.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Again, that gets us. It's a great question because
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: against into the question of how far ahead Oswell thinks
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: and the answer from from the book, if you've read
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: the book, the answer is Oswell is a great guy.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: He he can think ahead, he can plan, but he
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: often acts very spontaneously.
• 15:48
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's rational, but acts irrationally. You know. So I
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: think his immediate thing was I've got to get these
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: people off my back. You know. Does he think longer
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: term than that? I don't think so, David, you you
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: want to elaborate on that.
• 16:05
  Speaker 6: I mean, the biggest thing I think about him till
• 16:07
  Speaker 6: he was twenty three years old, when he's doing all this,
• 16:10
  Speaker 6: what did we do at twenty three years old? I mean,
• 16:13
  Speaker 6: I still emotional brains. I didn't know what I was
• 16:16
  Speaker 6: doing at twenty three. This summer and he was twenty four,
• 16:19
  Speaker 6: you know, in November twenty second, just turned twenty four.
• 16:23
  Speaker 6: So I think he did a lot of reading, very
• 16:27
  Speaker 6: strong ideas about what he wanted to do. He wanted
• 16:31
  Speaker 6: to get to Cuba, and some of his actions were
• 16:35
  Speaker 6: setting himself up so he can get to Cuba. This
• 16:38
  Speaker 6: is what Marina said too. I mean, do we believe
• 16:41
  Speaker 6: her or not? Yeah, I mean not everything she said,
• 16:45
  Speaker 6: but yeah, she told a lot of truths. But can't
• 16:47
  Speaker 6: dismiss everything that she said. And one of the reasons,
• 16:51
  Speaker 6: you know, she said that he had this confrontation too.
• 16:54
  Speaker 6: He was trying to build up his resume so he
• 16:57
  Speaker 6: could get to Cuba. Say hey, look, you know, this
• 16:59
  Speaker 6: is what I'm doing. You know, whether he's doing it
• 17:02
  Speaker 6: for a intelligence agency or on his own, we don't
• 17:06
  Speaker 6: know that exactly right now. But yeah, he wanted to
• 17:09
  Speaker 6: get to Cuba. That's what he was doing, you know,
• 17:11
  Speaker 6: and to do that.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: To do that, he can't have people all over him
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: while he's trying to do that, while he goes on
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: and visits the docks looking for a ship as an option.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: You know, he did a lot of things in New
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: Orleans that support the idea that he was looking for
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: options to get to Cuba. Yeah, because I can't somebody
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: who's on top of you. So he did something that
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: got him off their back, off his back for sixty days,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: which is actually pretty bright.
• 17:37
  Speaker 6: Yeah, he contemplating hijack and a plane. He talked about
• 17:43
  Speaker 6: that Marina. It didn't happen, but you know he was
• 17:46
  Speaker 6: thinking about it and to get to Cuba.
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: And I want to highlight this comment because I think
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: it fits into what we're talking about. Sally, one of
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: our great members, says, not sure you could be a
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: marx and pro Castro. Well, I will push back on
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: this a little.
• 18:04
  Speaker 6: Bit, Sally. I think.
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: He had some Marxist ideology. He went to Russia. He
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: didn't expect what he was looking for. Then he thought
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: the Castro idea communism, Yeah, of communism and Marxism would
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: have been more advantageous effective whatever word miss phrasing here,
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: you know. I And to your point, David, you know
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: he was a young kid. Yeah, really he was looking
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: for purpose and I think that when Russia didn't work
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: out for him, he kind of turned his eyes to Cuba.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: Although we do know, you know, he.
• 18:54
  Speaker 5: Was you know, with Delgado and he came back here
• 18:58
  Speaker 5: first and it kind of didn't work out for him here,
• 19:01
  Speaker 5: you know, So what's the next step?
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: Do you go back to Russia? Which is possible when
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: we see the letters.
• 19:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you know that Marine and Lee were writing to
• 19:09
  Speaker 5: the Russian embassy trying to either get them both sent
• 19:13
  Speaker 5: back or just Marina sent back.
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: Or what have you. What do you guys think about
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: that aspect of it?
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: Oh, I think that's very consistent. And I think one
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: of the things we're looking for in all of this
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: is do we find some consistency and continuity in his behavior?
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: And that was very consistent he Joe, you said, Rob,
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: he'd come back to the US. Actually, I think he
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: thought that he would be people would want to see
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: from his experiences, people would ask him to be interviewed, people,
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: he wanted to write a book. He started a manuscript
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: about his experiences. He really expected a not more of
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: a reception when he got back to the US, and
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: it didn't work. People didn't want to know, and he
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: couldn't get a job, and he you know, over a
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: period of like nine ten months, it dead ended in
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: the US. I mean, bottom line is he could see
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: wasn't going anywhere or certainly not in the direction he
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: wanted to go. But I think Joe response to the
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: question you mentioned, if somebody reads his writing from the
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: spring of nineteen sixty three, you see that he isn't
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: a pure anything. He's not a pure Marxist. He's certainly
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: not a pure communist. He's not. But he even proposes
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: an integration of some elements of capitalism and some elements
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: of socialism. So he's a free thinker. He's on his own,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: he's willing to go. He even writes a monograph about
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: an idealistic reconciliation of the two. And I think it's interesting.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: It's like he goes so far as to say individuals
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: should not be allowed to own rifles, but they should
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: be around their own shotguns so they can go hunting. Yeah,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: it's it's like, you know, he's not one single thing.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: You can't make him one single thing. That's not what
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: he was.
• 21:12
  Speaker 6: Then he's also looking at the Minutemen themselves, you know,
• 21:15
  Speaker 6: the radical right group. Way back then he was writing
• 21:18
  Speaker 6: about the Minute Man, you know, So it's he's Africa
• 21:21
  Speaker 6: looking at all kinds of things at this point, you know,
• 21:23
  Speaker 6: it's just twenty three, you know, reading everything.
• 21:27
  Speaker 5: Yeah, a long time ago, guys, I had this guy.
• 21:31
  Speaker 5: His name is Keith Gilbert. Yeah, yeah, I had him
• 21:35
  Speaker 5: on the show. Yeah, and he was like an old, old,
• 21:38
  Speaker 5: old school.
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: Minutemen minute man.
• 21:40
  Speaker 5: Well he was in the organization back then, and uh,
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: he was a very wild interview, like, you know, he
• 21:48
  Speaker 5: leged that he met David Ferry and all kinds of stuff.
• 21:53
  Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's pretty out there, but yeah, I
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: just stumbled upon that guy, and the more I looked
• 21:59
  Speaker 5: into him, the more out about him, I was like,
• 22:00
  Speaker 5: this is interesting.
• 22:01
  Speaker 6: You know, he helped found the Aryan Brotherhood in prison. Yeah,
• 22:06
  Speaker 6: he was a brotherhood.
• 22:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah. And I had Robert Taylor on the show. Uh,
• 22:13
  Speaker 5: you know, one point ahead of the men and men. Uh,
• 22:16
  Speaker 5: these guys are fascinating conversations and interviews and man crazy
• 22:20
  Speaker 5: and dang, Brandon, we gotta we got to hear David
• 22:24
  Speaker 5: Ferry one more time.
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: Guys.
• 22:26
  Speaker 5: Sorry, thank you, Brandon, thank you.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Along those lines, I'd like to say something controversial that's
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: not in the book, and David doesn't even necessarily have
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: to go along with me this far, but I think
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: one of the things that that's going on in New
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Orleans that adds the adds to the chaos about New
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: Orleans and and Doug mentioned this during the show. He
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: used the word hover. The point is, once Oswald started
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: making himself visible, there are a number of people that
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: that hover around him. But they're not the people that
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: you'd expect. It's not CIA domestic ops, it's not ci A,
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: it's not FBI. They're out looking for Idell. The people
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: that are hovering about him are the old school Cubans
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: to bring gears, the guitars, the kuragas. And this this
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: is happening for again a space of three or four weeks,
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: including after he goes on TV and after he goes
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: on the radio show, and it's become very visible. People
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: are hovering around him. But the guys that are hovering
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: are not sharing the information, which is a big part
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: of what we go into in the addition to the
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: book is that people start to lie, People start to
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: observe Oswald, people start.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: To withhold information correct from the school, what's CI all? Right?
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Well, these humans, uh, bring gear, guitar.
• 24:05
  Speaker 5: Uh, they're not up their ladder per se exactly, headquarters
• 24:14
  Speaker 5: like Miami or wherever it is.
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: Right, Okay, I got.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: You, David. You want to expand on that, because this
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: this were really what shocked us, because they they've all
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: volunteered and they've all been recruited to report on somebody
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: just like Oswald. In fact, Guitar Soviet Odio's uncle is
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: actually operational as a CIA spotter to report and they
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: don't do it. David, go ahead.
• 24:42
  Speaker 6: I mean Ostine Greta was actually you know, it's two
• 24:45
  Speaker 6: and one file. He said he was a c I,
• 24:47
  Speaker 6: a cutout. They actually use those, you know that language.
• 24:52
  Speaker 6: His case officer was Kyle Trenton from you know, Special
• 24:55
  Speaker 6: Office Staff Counterintelligence, you know, the domestic push where they
• 25:01
  Speaker 6: would you know, they shouldn't be where they shouldn't be.
• 25:05
  Speaker 6: They were in the United States, you know. So and
• 25:08
  Speaker 6: so he was an asset, you know, I mean he
• 25:10
  Speaker 6: was a legit the IA asset were you know, a
• 25:13
  Speaker 6: case officer, you know. So and one of the things
• 25:17
  Speaker 6: we're looking at is two and one file. Was interesting
• 25:20
  Speaker 6: that Carl Trenton wrote him a letter they're using the
• 25:24
  Speaker 6: alias of Carl Tiles, you know, saying that you know,
• 25:28
  Speaker 6: to Greetart. So I'm going to be uh in New
• 25:30
  Speaker 6: Orleans the week of August twelfth, and we're going to
• 25:34
  Speaker 6: talk and meet. Then August twelfth, Oswald's in court and
• 25:40
  Speaker 6: Augustine Guetart is in court with Oswald, along with Frank
• 25:44
  Speaker 6: Bartz and Carlos bring Gear. You know, so it's kind
• 25:47
  Speaker 6: of like, well, you know what is going on here,
• 25:50
  Speaker 6: you know?
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: So?
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: And did they not share this? And did he not
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: report it? Apparently not, There's no report on him because
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: this would be a standard. We see reports on Minutia
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: compared to Oswald and the daily stuff that people are writing.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: You know, he should have been mentioned. He's not mentioned.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: So did they not? Did they not go into this
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: with Rittin. One of the reasons to suspect maybe they
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: did not is Bartes, who is in that same court hearing,
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: is approached by the FBI after the FBI starts to
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: figure out like maybe Oswald is not not just an informant,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: maybe he's not a source, maybe he's leading us on.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: So they go to Barnes and Bartes lies to them,
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: says he never heard of Oswald, he doesn't know. And
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: Barnes is a guy who's a CIA source and will
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: actually go operational himself and go to the Congo within
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: a couple of years, outside US so a lot of
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: people are not sharing information about Oswald, and the question
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: becomes why.
• 26:56
  Speaker 6: Yeah, like Frank Bartees was in court and he meets
• 27:00
  Speaker 6: Oswald outside of the court and augues with him as
• 27:03
  Speaker 6: an argument with him, and then, you know, September tenth
• 27:06
  Speaker 6: sixty three says, do you know Lejavi Oswald? Do you
• 27:10
  Speaker 6: know where he's I have no idea who this guy is,
• 27:13
  Speaker 6: so you know he's lying. Why is he lying? You
• 27:15
  Speaker 6: know Osweld. That's where we figured Oswald's at play at
• 27:18
  Speaker 6: this time.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: Right, and that's in October, right, this.
• 27:22
  Speaker 6: Is September tenth.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: September tenth.
• 27:25
  Speaker 6: Wow, really, yeah, the FBI report, you know they talked
• 27:28
  Speaker 6: to bartestest. I have no idea who Oswald is. I
• 27:31
  Speaker 6: don't know where he is.
• 27:33
  Speaker 5: Well, I don't remember seeing a thing that Brignier put out.
• 27:38
  Speaker 5: And of course, you know he used to be in
• 27:41
  Speaker 5: the CRC, yes, right before he became the delegate for
• 27:44
  Speaker 5: the DRE. Yeah, but didn't he put out like a
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: press but what he called it a press relief we
• 27:49
  Speaker 5: were making fun of it is like a a one
• 27:51
  Speaker 5: or two page handwritten thing. I don't know where he
• 27:54
  Speaker 5: released it to, but he kind of wrote about the
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: fractice and and the rest and Oswald.
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: We just don't know where it went.
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: I think it was late August, was it.
• 28:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it was right after that. It was towards towards
• 28:11
  Speaker 5: the middle or end of August. Did he put this
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: press relief out? There's what he called it, but I
• 28:15
  Speaker 5: don't know who he released it to.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: I think what's going on here. Bring Gear at that
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: point in time, is wearing his d R hat, you know,
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: and he's being paid by the the c I is
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: funding the d I R E for propaganda, and it's
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: kind of like, what does he have to report? Well,
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: he goes into the radio debate with Oswald, So I
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: think his his press releases in support of what he's
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: doing to promote Oswald's as the danger. You know. I
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: think I think these other old c r C guys
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: are engaged at a different level. They're not saying thing
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: bring Gear suddenly is is d R E. I'm doing
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: my job to you know, I'm getting c A funding.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: I better do something to show him home and play,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: he said. Other guys they're not. And the interesting thing
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: then is you have Oswell line to the FBI, the
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: c Bartes line to the FBI. But my speculation is
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: that there was a period of time when the FBI
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: actually took Oswell seriously as a potential source because he
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: was satisfied. I mean, he's given them information. He's giving
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: them information on FPCC, he's giving them documents on the FPC,
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: on his communications. He's given him this covert chapter that
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: they don't know about. He looks like at least a
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: provisional or potential subversive guy. I think they may have
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: treated him like that kind of a pullback, And I'm
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: also not sure they did that. Deburi is being so
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: tight with Banister and some of the locals may not
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: have passed that on to them and said lay off them.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: You know, don't have you guys been to an alley
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: and work him up, because you know he's one of ours.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: He's actually providing us information. I think we've totally ignored
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: the point that he may have been viewed as not
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: you know, because of what he did in providing information,
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: is as a potential source. And there's a layoff period
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: until the FBI realized is wait a minute, there's no
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: high den And by the time they realized that Oswald's gone,
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: it was too late.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: Larry, you led me right into this next question. When
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: do you think the point that Lee was used as
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: possible propaganda purposes to when he was used as a
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: potential Patsy suspect, because we know he didn't get the
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: job of the TSBD into what mid April or mid October?
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, So like, when did this in your estimation
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: that this kind of happened.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Well, this sets up what we did in the book. Really,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: that's great shoe because in the book are two chapters.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: One is viewing Oswell as operational interest to the CIA
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: for propaganda persisiness. One is viewing him as operational interest
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: to the conspiracy and eventually becoming a passing two different tracks,
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: and we write about those two tracks separately. It's the
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: premise is that the CIA. Because one of the things
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: that's come over out over the last year and led
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: us to do this is we now know that virtually
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: everybody at Special Fair staff in Miami knew about Oswald
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: counterintelligence propaganda, and they knew about oswell because the FBI
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: was very open and was sharing information about his arrest,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: sharing information about his background with CIA headquarters. They were
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: passing that on to Miami to say, even Houstein's background
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: reports on Oswoll after he came back to the US
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: and Marina, how he treated Marina. All that's being shared
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: in Miami, which again you want to talk about lies
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: again after the fact, like nobody in Miami ever heard
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: of Lee Harvey Oswell. Right, well, we see the correspondence. Now,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: the FBI is very good at telling sas about Lee
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Harvey Oswell and what he's doing right now in June, July, August, September,
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: and SAS will, in turn will tell nobody about any
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: of this. They lie to Mexico City, you know, or
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: withhold information because all this information has been moved into
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: a special file which looks like an operational file under
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: the FPCC. So along Wood and answer your question is
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: we write about in one of the chapters is devoted
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: to how we think Oswoll may have have been developed
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: as at part of a propaganda program, sanctioned propaganda by
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: the CIA that they were developing and it was still
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: under development in November. The tool that they were likely
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: going to use for that, because it was going to
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: be deniable black propaganda, would be INCA Inca, none other
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: than INCA in New Orleans, who we demonstrate as a verifiable,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: deniable channel for c A propaganda at one used by
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: none other than our friend David Phillips. So okay, half
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: of the enhancetor on propaganda is over here. The other question,
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: the other track of operational use, appears to be that,
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: you know, yeah, that Green Gear and the DRE did
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: make a short aboardive attempt to promote Oswald butt that
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: stopped and that got shut down maybe because of this
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: other thing. But these Cubans in New Orleans, the CRC
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: guys begin maneuvering Oswald, is our speculation, and it's not instantaneous.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: They've got up there not talking about him, They're thinking
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: how they may be able to use him. And that's
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: where the trail starts. And I think the big thing
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: we develop in that track is how that occurred and
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: what the New Orleans Miami link existed that would have
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: made that happen. And that is the link that involves Bitart,
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: Verona mclaney and Carlos and Victor Hernandez who travel back
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: to New Orleans at the end of the summer and
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: may very well have picked up and been handed off
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: Oswald by none other than Karraga who was already inside
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: with Oswald and at Oswald convinced that he was a
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: fellow traveler. That could well be the point at which
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: Oswald is a roachable and can at least receive suggestions
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: and you know, we want to help you leave. We're
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: on your side. That's the start at which these guys
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: using him, not necessarily as a passy for Dallas yet,
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: but just using him because the first use that we
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: see of him. Really think about it, if you go
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: to McCowan and to Sylvia Odio, he's been positioned as
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: a what a loose cannon, a cowboy. He could shoot JFK,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: she could shoot Castro. You know, we're hanging with this guy,
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: but he could do virtually anything, which leaves him pretty
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: open to however they may decide to use them. You know,
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: is that you're going to decide to use him in Washington,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: d C. They're going to decide to use them. You know,
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: he's he's become a tool, and he doesn't know he's
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: become a tool, obviously. So, David, that was my usual
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: long winded answer. What can shorder version?
• 36:00
  Speaker 6: Oh man, I can't do a shorter version either.
• 36:04
  Speaker 5: Let me ask this because I think part of something
• 36:07
  Speaker 5: that I've always been vocal proponent of here on the
• 36:10
  Speaker 5: show is figuring out exactly what the hell was going
• 36:14
  Speaker 5: on in New Orleans, because I think that's the key
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: to the assassination.
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: Dallas is a whole other animal. Okay.
• 36:20
  Speaker 5: I think that the whole setup of Oswald and the
• 36:23
  Speaker 5: whole picking of him being a Patsy happens in New Orleans.
• 36:28
  Speaker 5: How we get to Dallas and how they control Oswald
• 36:32
  Speaker 5: in Dallas, That's that's something totally different.
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: Right, secondary almost right.
• 36:37
  Speaker 5: But to get back to the c RC for a
• 36:40
  Speaker 5: second and talk about the motivation for these guys to
• 36:46
  Speaker 5: do what I think, and I agree with you are
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: are saying that they did. You know, if you go
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: back and you look at and correct me if I'm wrong,
• 36:55
  Speaker 5: because we've we've been looking at this here for a
• 36:56
  Speaker 5: couple of weeks too, that basically, you see, yeah, he
• 37:00
  Speaker 5: took the FRD and turned it into the CRC, and
• 37:05
  Speaker 5: we're funding them very heavily, correct, so that they basically.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: Created the CRC.
• 37:12
  Speaker 5: And then all of a sudden, when is it I
• 37:14
  Speaker 5: think it's sixty one or sixty two, It kind of
• 37:18
  Speaker 5: it kind of gets dissolved a little bit.
• 37:21
  Speaker 6: April of sixty three is when they said no more funding,
• 37:25
  Speaker 6: and that's when.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: In New Orleans.
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there are two stages. I mean, the CRC was
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: really created as a political backstop for the Bay of Pigs.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: They needed some Cuban revolutionary leaders that would stand up
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: and say, you know, assuming that it had succeeded, we're
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: their new government of Cuba. And that was supposed to
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: be the CRC. Okay, When obviously, when the Bay of
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: Pigs aboarded and failed, you know, who needs these guys.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: You may shovel them a little bit of money, but
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: they're not important like they were. But they have some money,
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: they get some funding. But by the spring of sixty three,
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: they are so pissed that JFK and so pissed that
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: their money has gone away that their president quits yep, okay,
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: and they start issuing press releases talking about Kennedy being
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: a trader, being a communist. I mean, it's nasty stuff.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: And he quits and Verona assumes command of the CRC.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: But of course he's in kind of a desperate position
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: because he's got to do something. I mean, at that
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: point in time, he's got to make something happen, which
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: is why we see Verona as a much more critical figure,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: as a catalyst in bringing an action against JFK together.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: And one of the reasons he's a critical figure is ay,
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: he's got the New Orleans connection. He's a personal friend
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: of guitar. Yeah, good enough to go live with him,
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Okay and visit him. They're close personal friends. And this
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: is we ignore the fact that he was the guy
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: that was originally the Hextsher Roselli guy to kill Castro,
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: and by sixty three he's still I mean, the Harvey
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: Roselli guy. Sorry, by sixty three he's the hextsher Morales
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: Roselle guy to kill Castro. He's the one piece of
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: continuity in Morales and the Castro assassination prize. So if
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: you if you want to gel an attack against Kennedy
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: that you're going to blame on Castro, he's a good
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: place to start. Thanks coming together.
• 39:47
  Speaker 6: Yeah, William Harvey gave the pills to Roselli. Roselli gave
• 39:53
  Speaker 6: the pills that Cony Verona to kill Castro. I mean,
• 39:57
  Speaker 6: you can't get much closer than that, you know, I
• 39:59
  Speaker 6: mean Verona was it November fourteenth. He's in New Orleans
• 40:04
  Speaker 6: staying with Augustine guied Tots, Sylvia Odio's uncle stays at
• 40:08
  Speaker 6: his house, you know. And he went there to do
• 40:11
  Speaker 6: a fundraiser with Francisco Bartz, you know, Frank Bartes. You know.
• 40:15
  Speaker 6: It's like there it is, you know.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: And I think the other part of it is, this
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: is our suspicion. The people we see rob in this
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: Miami New Orleans connection that could become operational in assassination
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: are the old line, hardcore first Cuba Project. These are
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: the guys that are most passionate and they've stayed with
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: it for years. Okay, they're not going to give up
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: on this. They're not going to give it up there.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: They're the ones that are the most animated in talking
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: out against Kennedy. And that's why, you know why we
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: think that loop becomes very important. And then as you said, yeah,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: New Orleans is very important, but maybe for a different reason.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: Then we have been thinking all along.
• 41:10
  Speaker 5: That these guys in New Orleans that were part of
• 41:14
  Speaker 5: the c RC. And funny enough, I found the Doctor
• 41:18
  Speaker 5: the other week that it kind of lists their membership
• 41:23
  Speaker 5: and I was going through it and.
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: I was like damn.
• 41:25
  Speaker 5: All right, I didn't know or as Payania was part
• 41:26
  Speaker 5: of the sea. I said, Damn. I mean, all these
• 41:30
  Speaker 5: guys knew each other. They're all you know right there.
• 41:34
  Speaker 5: And I guess my.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: Question is, do you do you think that this.
• 41:40
  Speaker 5: Oswald plan, if you will, was born out of the
• 41:45
  Speaker 5: the New Orleans anti Caster Cubans or do you think
• 41:49
  Speaker 5: that it was a plan that.
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: Came down out of jam wave or or or something else.
• 42:00
  Speaker 6: Man, I don't know if I throw that one at Larry,
• 42:02
  Speaker 6: But I mean you have to consider some of the
• 42:06
  Speaker 6: other CRC connections that we haven't gone into too much.
• 42:09
  Speaker 6: Is Nesto Rodriguez, you guys know who us him? He
• 42:13
  Speaker 6: was signing the checks for the CRC in New Orleans. Yeah.
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: Also Oswald's first connection right with the yes, with the
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: anti Castro Cuban community, with the Berlin's Language school, right.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: And he dated the Camp Street office for the CRC.
• 42:28
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean Oswald went to go see Rodriguez at
• 42:34
  Speaker 6: the Berlitz School because he wanted to learn how to
• 42:35
  Speaker 6: speak Spanish, because he wanted to go to Cuba. So
• 42:38
  Speaker 6: you got to go to Cuba, you have to learn
• 42:39
  Speaker 6: how to speak Spanish. So he goes and you know,
• 42:41
  Speaker 6: connects with Neto Rodriguez and he says, do any know
• 42:45
  Speaker 6: any other local Cubans? Andesa was good friends with Carlos Springer.
• 42:49
  Speaker 6: These guys are like buddies for years. He said, Oh, yeah,
• 42:52
  Speaker 6: my buddy, Carlos springeer go see him. You know, he'll
• 42:55
  Speaker 6: help you out. You know, you know he gave Frank Bartez.
• 42:57
  Speaker 6: You know, Bartes' name is in Oswald's address book, you know,
• 43:01
  Speaker 6: and of course we know who Ornough's brother was. Right, Yeah,
• 43:05
  Speaker 6: that's the point we're going to get to it. I mean,
• 43:09
  Speaker 6: I mean, I jump the gun. No, that's okay.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: Well, but for Rob's question, I don't think there's ever
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: a simple answer, like, you know, did everybody set down
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: one afternoon. I think what happened is the old school
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: CRC guys in Miami and New Orleans, we're getting emotional.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: They were getting the point something has to be done
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: about Kennedy. There were a lot of people that way.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: We even know that there were documents being written that is,
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: within am world, as long as Kennedy as president, we
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: can't get rid of Castro. It was just a common
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: line of thought that.
• 43:50
  Speaker 6: Was the tipping point.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: I think there's a tipping point. I think the tipping
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: point is in for the actual Dallas attack is in Miami,
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: where not JM Wave, but the guys from the Cuban
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: Assassination Project, which includes Verona, get together and decide we
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: you know, enough talking, there is a tipping point. Uh October,
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: no more talking. We know we have to act. How
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: do we act? So yeah, I think there is a
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: tipping point. And from that, I think there's there's two
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: tracks that start forward, you know, assembling the actual attack team,
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: the tactical team. But then you know what's our cover story.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: So it's if you asked the question, was Carlos Hernandez
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: part of the attack team or part of the cover story?
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: I don't know. He could have been either one, but
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: I definitely think he's part of the story. And Carlos Hernandez,
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: of course is and Victor Hernandez have been staying at
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: Mike mcclaney's house in Miami. Okay, Mike mclaney was hired
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: by Verona to do pr for the CRC. He's been
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: tight with Verona forever or not forever, but for a
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: couple of years. Very important. So we complete the loop
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: there to Carlos and Victor who go to New Orleans,
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: go to mclaney's brothers in New Orleans, and they're in
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: New Orleans while all of this is happening with Oswald,
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: and they're in a perfect position to be introduced to Oswald.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: You know that that's where its cycles. So I don't
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: think there's one point. I don't think. I think it's
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: it's something that happens over sixty days from talk to
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: going operational, and the first sign of it you see
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: that it's operational with Oswald is with McCowan and Odeo,
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: where clearly he is being set up as a shooter,
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: not just a bad guy, not just a nutcase, not
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: just a cast or proponent, not like the Dre propaganda,
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: but like the kill Kennedy propaganda. That's where you know
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: it started.
• 46:08
  Speaker 6: There's also a connection between Frank Bartez and you know,
• 46:12
  Speaker 6: Victor Espinosa and Carlos Hernandez from Miami. I mean Bartes
• 46:19
  Speaker 6: would go to Miami. Of course he's gonna see Verona,
• 46:20
  Speaker 6: who's his loss essentially, you know, in charge, and he's no,
• 46:26
  Speaker 6: they're actually friendly, you know this, Victor Espinosa's brother Rene
• 46:32
  Speaker 6: as the hots Fort Frank Bartz, his daughter would call
• 46:34
  Speaker 6: her all the time in New Orleans, once called visitor
• 46:36
  Speaker 6: in New Orleans. I mean these guys were close, you
• 46:38
  Speaker 6: know what I mean, So that a relationship prior to
• 46:42
  Speaker 6: you know, this was in June fifteenth of sixty three.
• 46:45
  Speaker 6: They're talking, you know, so they were close. This is
• 46:49
  Speaker 6: you can see how he can approach Victor and Carlos,
• 46:54
  Speaker 6: you know, who already were working together, pulling them into
• 46:58
  Speaker 6: the plot.
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: And Angelo.
• 47:02
  Speaker 6: Yes, that's that's who I believe they were. Yes, And
• 47:06
  Speaker 6: how would they know? For Frank Bartes and Augustine Guita,
• 47:09
  Speaker 6: how do you get how do you get Sylvie Odio's number?
• 47:11
  Speaker 6: Well from our uncle? How do you get her address?
• 47:14
  Speaker 6: She's only been there, what for four weeks? She's moving again?
• 47:18
  Speaker 6: Do you get that from her uncle? And Frank Bartes.
• 47:21
  Speaker 6: Now Augustin Guita was the assistant delegate for the CRC
• 47:26
  Speaker 6: in New Orleans. He was no Frank Bartez's right hand man.
• 47:30
  Speaker 6: You know, these guys were close. They would all meet
• 47:33
  Speaker 6: in Bartes's office, you know, that's where they had the
• 47:35
  Speaker 6: CRC meetings in sixty three, after they closed five forty
• 47:39
  Speaker 6: four Camp Street. You got a Nesto Rodriguez, you got
• 47:42
  Speaker 6: Frank Bartees, you got Augustine Guita, you got Carlos Kroga,
• 47:47
  Speaker 6: who is the liaison who's visiting Oswald. You know, saying
• 47:50
  Speaker 6: I'm a pro castro. These guys, they all work together,
• 47:54
  Speaker 6: they all move each other, you know what I mean.
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we often talk about on the show how like
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: there was so much crossover between these groups and how
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: everyone knew each other. They're friends, yeah, and they're all
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: on the same boards. They're all signing the checks. The
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: treasurer of this, the treasure of that, or a council
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: member of this, Like they all know each other.
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: But there's one other key. So audio is one key
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: where you know something is going on. By that and
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: they've reached a position on how they're going to use Oswald.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: Before that they might not, we just know we're going
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: to use it for something. We don't know what nowhere,
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: but by that point in time when they're talking about oswell,
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: that way, you know they've decided how they're going to
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: use them. But the other key thing in the timeline
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: that we talked about just before the show is is
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: the report that came out of the Parent Jungle in
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: Miami to the FBI. That was investigated by the FBI intensely,
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: and according to the witness, the FBI literally to old
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: the witness to shut up or it could be dangerous
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: for her. And that is the incident at the Parrot
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: Jungle or or hey, Soto, is that right, Soto, isn't it?
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: David uh As chatting up, oh, okay, chatting up the cashier,
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: and he's he's new in the US. He's just just
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: arrived here. He hasn't been here long. He doesn't have
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: much to say, right, you know, he's but he wants
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: to impress her, and he impresses her by talking about how,
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: you know, how he's against Castro, how good a shot
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: he is. He's he could shoot Kennedy right between the
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: eyes or Castro right between the eyes, just like his
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: buddy Lee Harvey Oswald, Okay, his friend Oswald, and who's
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: you know, he's been in Russia. He's a great shot,
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: as good as as he is. And and right now
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: while we're having this conversation, you know, he's he's on
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: his way to do something like that. He's either Mexico
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: or he's in Dallas, don't know which. Now you have
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: to ask yourself, how in the heck did Soto know
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: something that specific about Lee Harvey Oswald. I think it's
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: in the October late October time frame, early November. And
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: the answer immediately comes, where would he have heard that
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: kind of talk? He just got into the US. He
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: is living on Mike mcclaney's estate, the same estate where
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: Carlos and Victor have been visiting because Mike is funding
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: the project that they're engaged in that moved to New
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: Orleans to bomb Cuba like a.
• 50:40
  Speaker 6: Bunch of chain.
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: But Mike, Mike mcclaney is living in Miami at this time. Correct.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, he has state.
• 50:50
  Speaker 6: A place in New Orleans.
• 50:53
  Speaker 5: Okay, And I did hear you guys say something on
• 50:56
  Speaker 5: Doug Show that intrigued me a little bit, that he
• 50:58
  Speaker 5: had David Ferry flying him around.
• 51:01
  Speaker 4: Is that is that right?
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: Uh? Yeah? The year before and you gotta get the
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: timeline right on this. The year before the m d C,
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: the Movement for Democratic you know, that group in Miami
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: had looked as as the Kennedy administration is starting to
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: shut down things operating now out of Florida, you know,
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: they of the Cuban missile crisis. They're starting to put
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: a hold on this. They're looking at opening a training
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: camp in New Orleans, Okay, And they actually send one
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: of Sturgist guys back and they're looking for I'll.
• 51:42
  Speaker 6: Go ahead, I'm sorry, and Jerry Hemington talked to Frank
• 51:45
  Speaker 6: Bartes and New Orleans about setting up a camp.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: You know, Marges is the connection. So when they show
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: up and I've actually got photos that were taking. They
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: show up and they're looking for local assistants. Bartes and
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: Barties brings in somebody who can fly him around and
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: be a spotter and look for a location for this camp.
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: And son of a gun it's David Ferry, and they're
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: flying around and they look and pick this place that
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: is just like about three miles from Mike mcclaney's, the
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: place that in sixty three is going to be used
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: for this board of bombing mission. So Barta's again, Barta's
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: is a key connection. It's fascinating that we've ignored him
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: so much that you know he's Bardas actually goes back
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: to Miami and at that point in time when he's
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: in Miami in the summer, he's chatting with these people
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: and they're saying, well, yeah, we're trying to put against
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: a mission against Cuba. We're trying to put it again
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: to the bombing mission, but the FBI caught us, and
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: you know, we're going to have to shut it down.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: And there's the conversation and the next thing you find
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: out is that son of a gun, they've moved the
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: whole operation to New Orleans, to mcclaney's brother's place, Barca's.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: And so when barts this question, it's kind of like, well,
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know how they figured out to bring it
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: back here. It's it's great. Yeah, I was talking to
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: him about how it didn't work there, but then they
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: just showed up here.
• 53:15
  Speaker 6: Don't know how and they're friends, are mine. Yeah.
• 53:20
  Speaker 5: So to take it back to the audio for a second,
• 53:22
  Speaker 5: the audio incident, it's a two part question, I guess,
• 53:27
  Speaker 5: the first part being do we think that this is
• 53:30
  Speaker 5: Oswald with him or somebody impersonating Oswald?
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: That's the first part.
• 53:35
  Speaker 5: The second part is with still the audio being of
• 53:39
  Speaker 5: course the niece of Augustine Guitard, and.
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: Do you think that she would lie if it wasn't Oswald.
• 53:47
  Speaker 5: And make a positive identification in saying say, yeah, it
• 53:51
  Speaker 5: was definitely him, you know, after the fact that I
• 53:54
  Speaker 5: guess that's the question.
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: I never thought of that scenario.
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: David, you want to lead on for this, so I don't.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: I'll think it's.
• 54:06
  Speaker 6: Is there any right answer to this?
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: I think there's no right answer. If people push against
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: the book, think of what they're going to do when
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: we come down on this.
• 54:14
  Speaker 5: Well, either either if Oswald's with them, if it's really him,
• 54:19
  Speaker 5: then they've obviously gotten into his mind somehow to convince
• 54:26
  Speaker 5: him of something.
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that he's part of something.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: Right, Well, we know that, but I think that set up.
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: I'm guessing if if this is you.
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: Know, with the redbird, you know, allegedly him sitting in
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: the parking lot, which I know you've obviously wrote a
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: lot about.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: Right, but here's a simpler answer to that. It may
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: not be right, it's just simpler. Or Oswald is interested
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: in going to Cuba. Yeah, let's say it's Oswald Cowen's
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: and Mcowan positively identifies him and says it's not only
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: it's Oswell, the same guy see in the news, and
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: he was with the guy I knew from Cuba when
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: I was running guns to them. Okay, a guy named her. Okay,
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: so let's say that that's the real Oswald. Okay, So
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: that leads me to think that the real Oswell is
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: in at Audios. But let's look at what's really happening.
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: What hook do they have on Oswald? Oswald wants to
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: go to Cuba. When they take him to McCowan, they're
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: taking him to someone who has a reputation for having
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: smuggled things into Cuba. He knows the boats, he knows
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: boat people, he knows how to get stuff into Cuba illegally.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: So maybe it's just the kind of like Lee, come along,
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: we'll talk to this guy. If he agrees to get
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: the rifles, we're going to ask him to ship him,
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: you know, and we'll get your seat on the boat. Okay, fine,
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: in at Odios. Odio has been, you know, outside, she's
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: been to Puerto Rico. She's got a reputation for having
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: connections in how to get out of the country. She
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: she's another place to take him to say. You know,
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: we're going to take here because we're going to ask
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: her if she can help you. We're going to ask
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: her to help us. We're gonna ask you. But all
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: the asking they do, as far as we can tell,
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: is in Spanish, so Lee doesn't know what's going on.
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: They don't. He doesn't know what they're saying, you know,
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: will you sign? You know, they're talking to her to
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: get something, to do something for them, which is actually
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: we know it's to sign a letter. Okay, let David
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: talk about that. But Oswood just knows that they're trying
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: to help him. The call that's made back to Sylvia
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: about him is not done. It's done after the act.
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: So we don't know that Oswell really knows anything more
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: than they're taking me around to people that may help
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: me get into Cuba. It's not working. What does he
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: do after that? We know the thing that happens after
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: Odio is the call to the fellow in Houston who's
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: in the union, who's again, yeah, does the boat work? Oswell?
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: Still that's on his own, you know. So that's what
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: seems to be going on with Oswell in his head.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: What they're doing clearly is setting him up. You know,
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: we're friends, we'll try to help you, We'll keep trying
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: to help you, while they're associating with things that make
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: him look a lot darker than he probably realized, but David,
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: go ahead.
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: Right, and you're talking about the classic op with an
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: op type of thing, right and sorry, go ahead, David, No.
• 57:54
  Speaker 6: That's all right. There was still the older said there
• 57:56
  Speaker 6: was two things the reason they went there. One was
• 58:01
  Speaker 6: she was very connected to the underground and the hospital
• 58:04
  Speaker 6: wanted to get the Cuba so and she says, no,
• 58:06
  Speaker 6: I'm you know, I'm not connected. I don't want to
• 58:08
  Speaker 6: do anything. And the other one she said, Leopoldo had
• 58:12
  Speaker 6: a letter fundraising letter from the front day A. You
• 58:17
  Speaker 6: know the CRC. They're trying to raise money. What was
• 58:20
  Speaker 6: Bartes doing in October? He's trying to raise them? You
• 58:23
  Speaker 6: havn't fundraises November they have who do they have there?
• 58:28
  Speaker 6: They have Verona doing a fundraiser for the CRC. So
• 58:31
  Speaker 6: obviously they got the letter from They came from New Orleans,
• 58:34
  Speaker 6: so they got it from Bartes essentially is where they
• 58:36
  Speaker 6: probably got the letter from. They wanted her to translate
• 58:40
  Speaker 6: it to English and send the letter out to all
• 58:42
  Speaker 6: the Dallas businesses for fundraising, like, hey, we need money
• 58:46
  Speaker 6: for the CRC, where you know di Castro. So that
• 58:51
  Speaker 6: was the two main reasons that of the visit that
• 58:54
  Speaker 6: she said, you know, so I found out really impested
• 58:59
  Speaker 6: the letter itself. And another thing too that was not
• 59:02
  Speaker 6: one of the original transcripts, was these two guys had
• 59:05
  Speaker 6: been into Cuba with the underground So they actually had
• 59:10
  Speaker 6: been infiltrated in the Cuba. Well, yeah, both of them
• 59:13
  Speaker 6: did for the Old Bad Pigs. You know that Carlson
• 59:17
  Speaker 6: Victor were infiltrators for you know, the brigade trained you know,
• 59:26
  Speaker 6: Carl Jenkins, you know, trained these guys. You know, as
• 59:29
  Speaker 6: Carl says, was the guys I trained, guys I worked with,
• 59:32
  Speaker 6: and the guys I worked for and killed. I know,
• 59:34
  Speaker 6: there it is.
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: You know, everything she says is true. I mean in
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: terms of where does the number come from? Runkle, where
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: does the other come from? New Orleans? Comes to board,
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: they say they're from New Orleans. Why would we not
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: believe that's what's going on?
• 59:51
  Speaker 6: And I said, don't trust them, You don't trust them.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 5: Let me ask you this, So, how do you convince
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 5: or how do two anti Castro Cubans convince a procastro
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 5: guy to possibly be in the position or put himself
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 5: in the position or put aj Haddell in the position
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 5: to take a shot at Kennedy. If I mean you
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 5: can believe that, you know, you could probably convince him
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 5: one way or the other, you know, by saying, okay, look,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 5: you know this rifle you can trace it back to
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 5: some fictional pro Castro person in the FPCC, right, not
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 5: not Lee Oswald. He didn't buy it. Aj Haddale bought it, right.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 5: And of course we don't know exactly where Oswold was
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 5: at twelve thirty twelve thirty one in the school book
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 5: depository somewhere allegedly. And I don't buy into the single
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 5: bullet theory and the magic bullet and all that crap.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 5: But when Landis came out a couple of years ago
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 5: with his version of events and the bullet that he
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 5: found and the you know, behind Kennedy and the little
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 5: trench behind the seats, you know, if if that was
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 5: possibly the only bullet fired from Oswald that day, maybe
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 5: meant to wound or something, do you think that they
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 5: could have convinced Oswald that they could get him to
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 5: Cuba and that this would bring the fight on basically
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 5: from the United States towards Castro. And you know, he
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 5: could possibly be put in the position to be on
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 5: Castro's side Castro's team, you know, to fight against the man.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 5: I don't know, it's just a crazy proposition that I
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 5: was thinking of. I'm just spitballing here and talking out
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 5: of my ass. But you know, you got to try
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 5: to figure this stuff out. And the motivations for everybody involved,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 5: including Oswald. How do anti Castro people, if it's a
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 5: pro Castro person to do something, what's the same thing.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: I think the quick answer is they don't. They didn't
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: convince him to do that. They did. They didn't need
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: to convince him to do that. That would only add
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: complexity to the whole thing. You don't. What you need
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: is you need to be able to frame Oswald and
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: through Oswald, to frame Castro. But let's I mean, Osweald
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: is just handy. Oswald is a positive way to point
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: it towards Castro.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 4: Is that does that job right?
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: And that would be my answer, Rob. All you need
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: is you need to plant the rifle. You need to
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: have it consistent with Oswald. It needs needs to be
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: a carcano, needs to be Carcano ammo, both of which
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: John Thomas Mason had, by the way, you know, so
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: it's not like you could not get that stuff on
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: your own. Was it osle actual personal rifle that had
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: come all the way from Dallas? I can't swear to that.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: It's interesting when Garrison put Karaga under polygraph there are
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: two places where Karaga really lies evidently or is under
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: great stress, let's put it that way. One is talking
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: about his knowledge of Oswell and a rifle this back
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: is New Orleans, okay. The others talking about Oswell being
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: associated with people that were somehow involved in a conspiracy
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: against JFK. That's it, not that he was not that,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: you know, just that he has knowledge that there were
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: some bad people.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: So I can't swear about that, but they don't convince
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: Osweald to do that. Oswell is truly the total passing,
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: and that's what you wanted to be, because you certainly
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: said it earlier. Joe framing Oswell is an OP within
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: an OP within an op. The primary op is to
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: kill JFK. That's it, it's over, it's done with. Now.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: There's some things that follow along with that that we are,
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: you know, going to escalate things where they happen. I
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: absolutely believe that there was some other things in play
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: that would have pointed toward Castro.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 4: Originally and it got killed very quickly.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah you know, so yeah we can we can take that.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: So basically, you don't have to convince them. You just
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: have to know him well enough and know how to
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: put it in in a position, which is the rifle.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: The rifle and the shelves are all that matter, because
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: that's what. Let's put it this way. These guys are
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: pretty smart. They've been themselves involved with assassination attempts for
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: several years now against Castro, and if they just that around.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: Thinking about it for a minute, what did Oswell say
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: when he was taken into custody. What was his first
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: I'm a passy And he said, I'm a passy because
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: I've been in Russia and I'm they've picked me up. Well, essentially,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: they fit me up and I'm going to be it
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: because that's what the police do. You know, I've been
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: in Russia, so obviously I'm going to be the guy
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: that takes the fall. The bad guys knew that also
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: if I Oswell's rifle there, Oswell is going to take
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: the fall. I'm sorry, I don't know what he says.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 6: See, the thing is, how did the rifle get to Dallas. Well,
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 6: wasn't in Ruth Payne's car, right, so Oswell supposedly took
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 6: a bus. He's going to carry a rifle on a bus. No,
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 6: you probably rode in the car with Victor and Carlos.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 6: The rifle was in the back, and that's how they
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 6: got to Dallas, you know. And and you know they
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 6: probably with the old sports stone shooting the rifle there.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 6: That's where they get the shells from.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: And what does will leave the rifle after New Orleans? Anyway,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: he's going to be on the road, he's likely going
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: to be crossing. He takes a pistol with him, okay,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: but a rifle not so much. Kind of like, well,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: we'll keep the rifle for you, bro, Well, well, not
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: a problem. You ever need it, just let us know.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll hang on, We'll hang on.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 5: Because of that story, he supposedly pulled his pistol out
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 5: at the in the Russian consule there in Mexico City,
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 5: allegedly and started crying and ship you know, and if
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 5: those guys are like, yeah, we'll just hold on to
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 5: this for a while, and then you know, they never
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 5: give it back to him, and just playing it, that's
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 5: a that's a good scenario for sure. I got a
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 5: question here from one of our listeners, guys, and I
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 5: think it's a good one.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 5: How does the c r C control all aspects of
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 5: the cover up, which I don't think that they.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: Do, but uh or did they just know that.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 5: Several people's interests to cover this up for the cr C?
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 5: I think is the answer? What do you guys think?
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 6: David oh through that one. I mean, that's a tough one. Actually,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 6: we haven't explored the CIA connection either, you know, to Verona,
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 6: who was he buddies with David Morales, William Harvey. You know,
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 6: Harvey's not doing the cover up, but a lot of
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 6: his buddies, you know, were We didn't cover the old
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 6: arnstro Rodriguez's brother, Amelia Rodrigas either. Emelio Rodriguez was a
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 6: heavy CIA JM wave guy. You know, so you got
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 6: Rodriguez meeting with Oswald. His brother was as CIA as
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 6: you can get. He was stay behind. He was a
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 6: super He was like one of the originals stay behind
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 6: guys in the network. Stay Behind network with Tony Sporzer
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 6: supported by David Morales. Morales was really close to Emilio
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 6: Rodriguez and Tony Swazza. These are the guys. They kept
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 6: them there until June of sixty one. Then you know,
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 6: Castro came after him. They had to get out, so
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 6: they exfiltrated Boom right to Miami rate to JM wave.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 6: So of course there's that huge connection rate there, you know,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 6: and if well and.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: That, but that the other point is the cover Let's
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: define the cover up. Oh yeah, the cover up is
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: to make it look like it was just Oswald. I mean,
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: the cover up is the cover up of a larger conspiracy.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: You know. That's how did the CRC control that. They
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: didn't control that. We know who controlled that Nonson Life magazine.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: You know, the storyline. The conspiracy was covered up because
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: we now know that everybody and his brother at the
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: top level of government realized that there had been some
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: sort of conspiracy, including the director of the CIA, and
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: they didn't want to go there. And we also know
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: that the Miami was concerned that yeah uh huh yeah, okay, yeah,
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: when when he said within three days that he's he
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: was suspecting a conspiracy. I mean, they knew we can
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: trace that back. I trussed about that long ago and
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: someone would have talked, the cover up is not this
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: the they did not. Bad guys did not want it
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: to be Oswald alone. They wanted to be it to
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: be Oswald as part of a Castro hit team. When
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: when the Cuban exiles went to Claire booth Loose the
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: night of the assassination and said, oh, we have tapes
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: of Oswald. Of course they do, because Rodriguez from New
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: Orleans has the tapes. We have tapes of oswell, we
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: have we we can place Oswald with a Cuban that
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: he went to Mexico, he trained with a Cuban hit team.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: Now that's what they wanted. That's the storyline they wanted
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: to see. That's that's the conspiracy storyline is Cuban you know,
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: Castro supporter helps kill JFK. You know, that's the storyline
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: they wanted. That the cover up is totally opposite to that.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: So no, they didn't arrange the cover up. That's the
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: last thing they wanted.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 5: And it's a win win for the anti Castro Cubans
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 5: because all right, Kennedy gets killed, right, and if it
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 5: gets pinned on a pro Castro uh person, well then
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 5: the US is surely going to wipe out Castro right
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 5: and they get the country back. It's a win win
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 5: for them, and you can see why they would have
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 5: formulated this plan, and uh, you know, they almost got
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 5: away with it well.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: And I think it's kind of like Martino said. John Martino,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: who was perioferally involved in it it, basically said his
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: son told me that years later. He said that they
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: had been given promises. And I think what he was
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: really implying is that they had been promised that the
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: fix was in. You know, all they had to do
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: was set up as well do this, and the fix
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: was in and Washington d C. Was ready to go,
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: you know, all the top level guys that you know,
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: the planes would fly, everything would happen. And Martino said,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: you know, we were had. Basically we came to realize
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: that they were making promises to us that they never
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: intended to keep, that they couldn't have kept. They just
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: suckered us in with this kind of like the Bay
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: of Pigs in a way. But you know that basically
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: they felt that they had been used, and I suspect
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: that they were used from the scenior.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 5: Levels the CIA, you know, trying to buy back their
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 5: good graces by funding these Cuban exile groups to to
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 5: you know, to to exorbiting an amount of money. You know,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 5: but once that money starts going away, you kind of
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 5: see the shift in the Cuban exile community, right.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: And I think what really supported it. I think it's
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: very sad if you really dig into it. A lot
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: of them weren't rabid, the CRC guys. They weren't hearing,
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: you know, the AM World story. They weren't weren't hearing
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: that the Kennedy brothers were supporting a new crusade against Castro.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: Even our Teamy when he was going around recruiting for
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: AM World, was telling recruits at uh At Army bases
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: that the Kennedys have deserted us. You know, they're traders
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: to our cause they've left us alone. But the good
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: news is we have money from people overseas and we're
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: restarting this whole thing. You know, what kind of image
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: is that going to create? You know, that's that's bad stuff.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: And they knew he was saying that, boy, you get
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: yourself tangled up in your socks really quick that way.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 6: Yeah, And and to what.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 3: You said earlier, I do believe almost one hundred percent
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 3: that the goal of the assassination was to prompt an
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: invasion of Cuba. But when you talk about the cover up, right,
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: and I think this is kind of too promped if
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 3: you will. You have, you know, the Cuban exiles. I
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 3: don't know if it's exactly a cover up, but them
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 3: trying to invade Cuba, and then you have the United
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 3: States government trying to cover up certain operational activities. Right,
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 3: so they're just like all these intermingling type of you know, everybody.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: Is doing c ya. Is the FBI going to want
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: to say, oh, Lee Aris, Yeah, that's the guy we
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: as a provisional informant in New Orleans. No, they're not
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: going to want to say that is the CIA going,
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: oh we were scheduled to launch a program, a propaganda
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: program around him in November. They don't want to say that.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: Everybody's got their own part of their rear end to
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: cover up, and that.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 3: Is human exiles that lied to the powers that be, Right,
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 3: the intelligence services are also trying to cover their tracks
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 3: as well, right, so you have I think this is
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 3: what makes this case so frustrating and confusing is that
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 3: you just have so many people with so many different objectives, right,
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 3: and they're all just intermingling, and it's just like at
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: this point, it's just like everyone's cya, like screw it,
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 3: Like no one will ever find out.
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 5: And did I tell you, guys the last time you
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 5: were on that that Carlos Kurruga's grandson.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 4: Reached out to me. No, no, yeah, I can.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 5: I can tell you guys off air who it is,
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 5: but uh, his name, and I can even give you
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 5: his contact info if you want. He says, he doesn't
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 5: really know too much. I mean, he was asking me
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 5: for things, which I did. I sent him everything that
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 5: I had on Coroga document wise, even the audio, even
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 5: the audio interviews that that aren't out there very much,
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 5: you know what the Garrison had done, things like that
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 5: and stuff that he'd never heard before. And he said,
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 5: you know, in his family that his grandfather never really
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 5: talked about that time very much, probably for good reason,
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 5: but I just think it, you know.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 4: It's it's just fascinating.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 5: That's you know, a lot of these family members from
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 5: these integral people are still around and interested in what's
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 5: going on, and it's crazy.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: It is crazy, and some of them, you know, they
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: don't know I had. I had a relative of the
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: Felix Rodriguez contact me one time and he said, you know,
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: you said Felix did some bad things. Yeah, Felix did
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: some bad things. Okay, there's just no doubt about that,
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: and he got medals for it, and so okay. But
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: he said, like, my uncle is just a nice old
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: guy and he sets around the bay in Miami and
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: he drinks caught. You know, how can you say that
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: about him. I'm going, I'm not saying that about your
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: I'm saying that about what he was, not what he
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: is now. Yeah, so's it's got to be confusing for
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: them too. But in Kurragate it's especially confusing, I think,
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: and Joe, I think you captured it. It's like the
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: Stone movie. You know, let's go back to Banister. You
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: introduced Banister. So let's say that Banister did know that Oswald,
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: you know, like he'd had word from the buist hands
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: off and so on and so forth, and and you know,
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: people were associating with os Well that should not have
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: been because they thought he was something. I've always been perplexed,
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: why would these ultra right wingers still be associating with Oswald?
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: Like in Jackson. Let's say we said he's exposed himself. Well,
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: why would they because word has been passed that that
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: he's trusted at the moment. Okay, that's going to change
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: in a couple of weeks. But at the moment he's good,
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: you know. And Oswald doesn't care. You know, Uh, that's fine.
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: It's it's keeping him off the FBI's radar. So everybody
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: has their own view of things, you know, and Agenda
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: well and kron would would would think. You know, I
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: he stated, I visited this guy. I said that I'd
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: been against Batista. You know, I was a longtime supporter
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: of the revolution, not of Castro. Fair play for Cuba.
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: If you said the right things, Oswald would buy. He
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: was looking for supporters. Oswold's looking for people to reinforce him.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: We've seen that. We can go through that in the book.
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: If you talk like Oswell talks, he's your buddy. It's
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: not that he won't be here, but you just need
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: to agree with him and you're good. It's just that
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: there weren't that many people that did, you know. But
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: so he's approachable and Karag approved that, and the guys
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: in the CRC knew that from Karaga, So Karai didn't
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: need to say see everything he didn't. All he would
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: need to know would be a couple of things that
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: I'm sure after the fact troubled him, like, wait a minute,
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: I know there was something going wrong with this, and no,
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about that part of it.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: And I sure don't want to talk about a rifle. Okay, okay, fine.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: You know so you can't overestimate how much people know
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: because everything we're talking about is compartmentalized. They know just
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: what they're dealing with. Everybody, Joey said it, everybody has
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: their own agenda. And I feel the same way about Oswald.
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: There's no way that oswell if you read the book.
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: One of the things that we make the case for
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: in the first edition is if you look at what
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: Oswald does and says in the twelve twenty four hours
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: after he's taken into Customy, he live is clueless. He
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: doesn't even I don't think he even feels they have
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: a case against him. I don't think that because he
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: knows he didn't do it, Like they can't. They can't
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: convict me. You know, I didn't do it. You know,
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: I don't even have a rifle. I got rid of
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: my rifle a long time ago. But they didn't. They
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: didn't do that. They didn't. Somebody, if somebody will ever
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: tell me why the Dallas police did not show the
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: rifle from the school book depository and say, lead, your
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: fingerprints are on it, and bake it. And they didn't.
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: They interrogated him without any of the crime and scene evidence.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: It is this, and I think it's because Oswald had
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: it right in the beginning. All they had to know
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: was he's been in Russia and he's gonna take the fall.
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 5: I got another question for you, David, before we before
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 5: we let you go. And I'm curious about Silvia Odio
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 5: a little more. Whatever happened to Sylvia Odio? And and
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 5: was she ever questioned about any of this after post
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 5: Warren Commission?
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 4: Was it was? Did they crack her down with the AGCA?
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 4: Did she die?
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 3: I mean disappear?
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: No?
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 6: Actually, Keiton Phonzie actually interviewed her and she pretty much
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 6: backed up what she said back in sixty four. She
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 6: stuck to the story. She pretty much stuck to the story.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 6: You know, she may have forgotten a few things. Casual
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 6: label it was pretty much the story. They were two Cubans.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 6: They looked like Mexican's a little greasy. If you look
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 6: at vict Espinoza, he was the FBI described him as
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 6: being Indian like no Mexican Indian. And Carlos, you know,
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 6: he had a mustache and sis above one eye, scar
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 6: above one eyed, a lot of descriptions of the person
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 6: with Oswald had a scar of his left eye like Flos.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 6: And he was a guy seen in UH in November,
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 6: Uh Huban. We had a scar above his left eye
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 6: in UH the Carousel Club. I don't know, you know,
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 6: it's just all of these little things, but yeah, she
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 6: pretty much stuck to her story with Fonza. You can
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 6: find that on Mary farrell website.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 3: And she has passed since David.
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 6: Last I heard she was in Tennessee. I'm not sure
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 6: she's passed.
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 4: Track her down, Track.
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 3: Her down, let's get the true story. And sister on
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 3: the audios, let me highlight a comment from our good
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 3: friend Alan Dale. Older sister Rita Odio was established in
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 3: Dallas prior to Sylvia and Rob. I think you will
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 3: remember this. On our Jay Martin series, we talked about
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 3: the wand Martin I believe it was from your way, right, Yeah,
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 3: that approached Johnny Martin that john Yes, and that approached
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 3: her own Yeah, the laundry met owner. But that's not shaty.
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 3: That approached her for guns for Jurrey. I believe that
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 3: was Sorry, I believe that was earlier in the summer,
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 3: which again kind of goes back to our ops with
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 3: an ops and all these kind of crazy things happening
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 3: at once. But that was really weird too, I mean,
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 3: just the amount of people that are kind of going
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 3: after the Odio sisters. And I believe so Rita was
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 3: pretty hot, babe from what I read.
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: There's one other thing, and David found this, so he
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: really needs to talk about this something we had not realized,
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: and talk about how interconnected this all was. Our favorite suspect,
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: Carlos Hernandez in the summer of nineteen sixty three was
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: dri and jury. David, why aren't you going to that
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: because that's that's totally new. Nobody knows that except you.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 6: Yeah, there was a jury, was a junta, you know,
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 6: made of different groups. It wasn't you know just one thing.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 6: One of the groups was made of. It was a
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 6: Cuba libra, you know, Cuba Libra was headed up Hellos Zaaga.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 6: Really interesting guy. If you guys want to write that
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 6: dame now look at Luka his name up. He was
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 6: an AMOT, a FBI informant, but he also had this
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 6: small little group that was part of jury. He supplied
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 6: a lot of the guys for the missions and he
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 6: was also their weapons apply for Jurrey and Carlos Hernandez
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 6: was his military advice. Said, you know, for that small
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 6: little group of it was anywhere from ten to twenty people,
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 6: depends on when so. And another interesting thing was close
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 6: to College Saraga was Harmonio Diez Garcia, who's been named
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 6: as an assassin, no shooter. He was close to Carlos Zaraga.
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 6: You know, so small world. What was the other thing
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 6: A z R A r R eight two hours a
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 6: g A Martinez batronym Carlos Zaraga Martinez, interesting guy, look
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 6: him up. He was known as the Cuban Jackie Gleason.
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 6: If you want to go for thanks kind of big glass.
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Carlos Hernandez think of this if you want to
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: talk about this big circle. Carlos Hernandez has been a
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: primary military ops guy for d R E Boat mission
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: guy for dj A. He's a long term first Cuba
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: griade guy, infiltration person trained by Jenkins. Okay boat missions
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: into Cuba. We just go on up the scale. He's
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: he goes on missions for as David just said, for Jure,
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: he goes on missions for Dre, he goes on missions
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: for Mike mcclaney and Quebel. You know, he goes on
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: missions for everybody. And when when he's interviewed after the fact,
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: that what's clear is he is a dedicated anti commonist fighter.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: That's what he is. That's how he sees himself. That's
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: what he's always going to be. So you can't put
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: him in one box. He's across all the boxes. So
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: he's going to go with whatever mission he thinks is
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: most productive for his cause at any given time. So
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: don't try to put him in a box. That's why
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: if he shows up Odios, did he hear about Odio
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: from uh, yeah, the sister, or did he hear about
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: it from guitar or you know we're in Dallas and
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: we're on the mission. You know that's.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 6: Carlos travel, right, have gun will travel, he will travel.
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 6: He was also Manuel's bodyguard because he is a black
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 6: belt in judo and he was Adam's bodyguard. Very close
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 6: to all those guys, you know, Chi Chi Quintaro, one
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 6: of his best friends, wants a lot went on missions
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 6: with him. You know, he was close to all the
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 6: name places you name it.
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 1: Missions with Verona's son, which David found which I had
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: no clue about. Uh. Verona's son was an ammot and
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 1: he was one of this special cadre that was pulled
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: out to go on special missions. He was on the
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: same kind of boat infiltration missions that Harnandez and Felix
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: Rodriguez were. Yeah, and he did. And this is his son,
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: and he's just he's just been the reason he's probably
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: not in this action. Is he just got what did
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: he get out of prison in Cuba? Was he just
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: released anyway? He had he had been wounded anyway. But
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 1: he's Verona's son is in deep with military operations. So
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: you can that Verona is not just a political guy.
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: He's he's in the deeply with his family. And the
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: fact that what within months after the assassination, he's no
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: longer in the Cuba anti Castro crusade. He's in New
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: York City selling used cars. That's like maybe decision with airplanes,
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 1: and Verona is in New York City selling used cars.
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 5: Was Verona the guy that got his hand blown off
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 5: in the seventies or something.
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 4: I'm not thinking of somebody.
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: Else now that was the Latier. I think that was
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: somebody else.
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 6: We went to Verona in August of nineteen sixty three,
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 6: who was in Chicago, came back with two hundred thousand dollars.
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 6: Who's he meeting with j and Kinna? You know who else?
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: Larry Richard, the guys from Vegas who are giving money
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 1: to carry carry the policy, and Paulino Sierra, who's going
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 1: to feed it to guys in Miami, including Verona. This
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: is probably the money that funded the mclaney bombing mission.
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: And when it's all said and done, it comes from Vegas,
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: which is in the all the FBI investigations. It was
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: really money from Vegas, which means it was probably money
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: that was filtered through Johnny Roseli.
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 6: Yeah, what Homo etchase know?
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 1: Was Lanski's right at your at your Veria said the
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 1: guys were from Vegas.
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 4: Yep, the tough guys.
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 5: I'm so thrilled that you you were able to update
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 5: this book and hopefully you'll get to updated again in
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 5: a couple of years.
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 6: That he's working on it.
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 3: Rob, If I may I have one more question? Yes,
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 3: So I am planning the trip to Nara next month
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 3: actually in also an exactly a month with some lawyers
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 3: that were previously involved in the case that has just failed.
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 3: I feel like some of our momentum, say when Trump
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 3: signed the executive order to Luna's committee, has somewhat died off.
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 3: What can we do going from here on out? Because
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 3: I don't I don't know the answer. I really don't.
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: David did he set himself up? Because before we came
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: home we talking about what could we do well? We
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: get asked Joe to go look for document on mclaney
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: and Verona.
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 4: I will, I.
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 3: Will, I will, I will put, I will put the
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 3: request for those boxes. If you will, I will. I'm
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 3: happy to take requests. Alex Harrits has given me a
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 3: request on I think it was the Weatman film, and
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 3: I'm going with I think Andrew Ryl or Marca Damchuk
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 3: and I don't know, I've never been there. I think
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 3: it's kind of crucial or buying almost eighty dollars portable scanner.
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I just I want your recommendations and I
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 3: will take your requests as well, sir.
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 5: Yeahthing, just copy it all, Just copy it all, I guess, said.
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 3: Malcolm Blunt style.
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, get everything, because and again this is something David
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: found that I think about this. It's her after the assassination.
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: William Harvey is having dinner and meeting with two people
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 1: years after the assassination. Who would that be? Johnny Roselli
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: and Antonio Verona? What in the heck was the bond
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: that you know this guy would have years later with
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: Tony Verona. So don't when you're getting his files, Let's
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: look at everything that would show his connections to these
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 1: guys because if I think, if you really want a
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: catalyst for how this came together, and Robbie asked, I
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 1: think it's in Miami as far as the actual attack
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 1: on Kennedy in Dallas, and it involves people like Verona,
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 1: this old kill team basically Roona, Roselli, Harvey, Morales. You
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 1: know this, This is where it goes beyond We've just
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: got to do something about Kennedy to we just really
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: need to kill them somewhere. Agree, Thanks, good, good deal, boy,
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: that worked out well, David.
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 6: Yeah, Joe, do I have a list for you?
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 3: Yes, give it to me.
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 6: Please.
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 3: I'm happy to I'm lacking on my own personal list,
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 3: but we'll talk off air about that, but please do.
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 3: And thank you guys again. To wrap up Rob's point
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 3: for the very high level of conversation. I know a
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 3: lot of the names we talked about are not more
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 3: of the kind of more famous names, if you will,
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 3: but I think more important, I think you guys are
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 3: hot on the trail. Pre order second edition book of
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 3: the Oswalt Puzzle. You guys are the best. I hold
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 3: you guys on the highest esteem and I thank you
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 3: for your time.
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much for coming on again. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 4: and enjoy it.
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 1: Enjoy it.
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we love you guys. It's always an engaging conversation.
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 4: I love it.
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 3: And if you let me Rob, as you ended out,
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 3: grab my dog Ruby not ironically named.
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you again. Guys.
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 5: We're gonna we're gonna do a little closer here, but
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 5: hang out for it for just one second because I
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 5: want to get at you off the air real quick.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 5: To Joe gets the damn dog. We'll let Dean Andrews
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 5: sing us out of here, or dance us out of here.
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 4: There she is. What a beautiful ruby. Oh yeah, the second.
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 6: For the record, but he said, come to Bourbon Street
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 6: and our show.
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 5: Thank you so much for tuning in. We hope you
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 5: enjoyed the show. I don't know how you couldn't enjoy
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 5: the show. Again, Thank you very very much, Larry Hanks
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 5: from David Bolling.
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 4: Go get the damn book when it comes out. Pre
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 4: order it. Links are in the description.
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 5: There's even a link down there for people in the
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 5: United Pingdom.
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 4: We pre order this book in your own country so
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 4: you don't have to pay those orbited tariffs.
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 6: Committee.
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 5: We'll be back soon with the book of you and
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 5: of course members only show next week. Once again, folks,
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 5: thank you for showing up. Thank you for everybody that
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 5: contributed super chats. We appreciate it. Brandon given all the
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 5: memberships to all these people.
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 4: Man, craziness, craziness. We can't thank you enough. We love
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 4: you and we'll see you soon.
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 5: Ruby, Poor Ruby, Jesus, oh Peace,