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Neurodiversity-Affirming Schools with Emily Kircher-Morris and Amanda Morin · The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders

• Ross Romano: [00:00:00] Welcome in, everyone. You are listening to the Authority Podcast here on the Be Podcast Network. Thanks, as always, for being with us. I'm really pleased to be bringing you this conversation on a topic that we haven't really talked much about here on the show, in my memory. And it is about Neurodiversity affirming schools neurodivergent students in those schools and things to know and do as school leaders as educators to Create really positive learning environments. So my guests today are amanda moran and emily kircher morris Amanda is a neurodivergent neurodiversity activist. Say that five times fast. I did pretty good the first time, though. An award [00:01:00] winning author, early childhood specialist, certified teacher, and a nationally known speaker who is deeply committed to fostering accessible and inclusive environments for neurodivergent individuals. Emily has dedicated her career to transforming how we understand and support neurodivergent minds as a licensed professional counselor, educator, and thought leader. She brings a unique blend of clinical expertise and lived experience to her work with neurodivergent individuals. Their book is called Neurodiversity Affirming Schools, Transforming Practices. So all students feel accepted and supported. Amanda and Emily, welcome to the show. Amanda Morin: thanks so much. Ross Romano: I noticed there it's man neurodivergent is kind of like the word brewery. I have a little I have to you have to slow down And really pronounce the syllables. You can't say it too quickly Emily Kircher-Morris: Yeah, well, I'm able to I would say that when we first got the full title with the subtitle and everything, it took us a while to get used to, to the whole thing too. We would be like, what is the title of our book again? Anyway, I think we've got it down now, so [00:02:00] that's good. Amanda Morin: we do. We just have to say it slowly, just like you. It's also a hard word to type. Just know that too. So Ross Romano: It's a little tricky. Yeah, well now we know. Alright, so let's start by, I think, providing a lot of the context around this, talking about some of the terminology and just the way the book is framed, as well as some of the You know, terms to be aware of in the conversation we'll have today and also more broadly in the conversation for our listeners who are newer to the topic or who are really coming to the conversation thinking about what this can look like in their schools. So, as I referenced, the title of the book is Neurodiversity Affirming Schools. What does neurodiversity affirming mean? Amanda, I'll let you start with this, and then we'll get Emily involved. Amanda Morin: sure. The first thing I would say is we're very intentional in how we use the word neurodiversity versus the word neurodivergence, and that's important as we look at the title of the book. [00:03:00] And it's important as people are asking us about the book, right? Because neurodivergent is the word a lot of people are hearing now. But neurodiversity, when we talk about neurodiversity affirming, we're really talking about how do you support all of the kinds of minds that are in your classroom, not just the students who are neurodivergent, right? And so we're looking at How do you change practice? How do you change your classroom structure and the way that you're teaching students to make sure you're including all of the different kinds of learning and access to learning that's happening in your classroom? And Emily, I'm sure you have things to add to that, but I just, I think that's the basics right there. Emily Kircher-Morris: Yeah I think the other thing, well, just the term neurodiversity in general is a good you can compare it to the term biodiversity, like recognizing that we have variability among humans in how we think, how we process information, how we communicate. And then there are specific neurotypes, and those are some of those diagnoses [00:04:00] that we talk about that are neurodivergent, right? They diverge from the norm. And so when we talk about. All minds in our classrooms, that's who we really need to be supporting but there's been some specific tools that might work for a certain group of students or an individual student, depending on what that is. And so when we talk about the affirming piece of it, I frame that as how do we work with our students brains instead of against them? How do we find ways to harness their strengths and leverage those and help them find ways to be successful that work for them? (ad here) Ross Romano: You've referenced a few of these already, but I know there's a number of other relevant terms and terminologies that I think will make sense for us to lay out at least a few of them here as we're starting our conversation, and they relate to the way you write about this in the book, and, you know. Differences and different some of [00:05:00] the other terms that at least are the most up to date, most commonly used and accepted terminologies, even though not everybody has. But but if you want to maybe Emily talk through a few and Amanda, if you want to add to it, a few of the ones that you use in the book and that you'll probably refer to in the conversation and you know, the thinking behind why you chose to go with those. Emily Kircher-Morris: Yeah, so you mentioned differences, for example, so starting with that you know, when we talk about learner variability in the classroom, what we are really talking about are those differences and just recognizing that every student has strengths, every student has struggles. And quite often you'll hear about students who have, a wide range of various, perhaps, disabilities and talking about them as their differences. You know, it's like a learning difference or it's kind of a way to recognize that it's that individual student's you know, strengths, specific profile. [00:06:00] We then also use in different contexts, though, the terms disability, Which is a legal term, specifically when we're talking about an IEP, an Individualized Education Program, or a Section 504 plan. And then sometimes we use the word disorder, although technically, really, Amanda and I really prefer not to use the term disorder because it's not very affirming. But disorder is a medical term, so when you get into some of the diagnostic processes that happen in the psychological world that's where you see that term disorder coming to the surface. I don't know, Amanda, yeah, what else would you add? Amanda Morin: You'll hear people use different preferences, like so in the legal language, when we're talking about one of the ways that students access services, you're hearing specific learning disorder, right? You may also hear learning disability, and some people talk about learning differences to some degrees about how they choose to use that language, right? From a legal perspective, when we say disability and disorder, we're doing that because we want to make sure that the supports [00:07:00] underneath our students are in place. Thanks. Bye. But when we talk about differences for. So, for us in this book, it was really important to note that for some people, it's a really empowering term. And for other people, it actually may soften the way they feel about how their brain works. One of the things that's really hard is there's not really good language right now to talk about these kinds of things. Because if you think about learner variability, as Emily said, Everybody learns in different ways, right? So difference doesn't actually give us a way of talking about that. And people use neurodivergent in some ways to describe the way somebody's learning or communication style may get in the way of accessing. The environment they're in. And I think to me, it's important to stress the fact that any of those terms really are about what happens when the environment you're in doesn't work with the brain you have. And how do we look at [00:08:00] that in a way that changes the environment? We also talk about a lot of people hear the term neurotypical a lot of times we have preferred to use the word neuro normative, typical sort of implies that there is something we should aim for, right? That there's a, there's an in the middle, typical kind of thing that we're hoping to get everybody to norm is statistical, right? We look at the bell curve and it's a statistical It's a statistical, that's a hard word to say too way of looking at students and norms are also the things that we set up in standards for society, right? So we're using our normative as a An alternative to neurotypical. Ross Romano: Yeah. Are there any there's as we've kind of referenced, right, there's some variability in, terms and labels and and how individuals who are neurodivergent, what Terms they like to use for themselves, just as you know, individuals with any type of learning [00:09:00] difference or a physical disability may have terms that they personally prefer versus others. And they might not be the same as what is the, at least most commonly used term, but are there any kind of relatively consistent. Rules about like what not to do. And I know sometimes there can be certain terminologies that might be euphemistic that might be counterproductive or of course, there's some that are you know, more clearly derogatory. Right? But but even those might not. I mean, they might not necessarily be Obvious or common sense to people who haven't don't know that much about these topics yet or or who were used to terms that were used when they were younger or but are there any of those rules to say, look, they're different individuals may prefer this or that, but. Almost all the time, this is going to [00:10:00] be kind of a no you know, don't do this. Amanda Morin: Ooh, it's really hard to say there's an almost all the time. Right. And I think that's something I would stress. One of the things that's really important and to me as a person who identifies as disabled, right, I prefer identity first language and that, so for example, I would say I'm autistic as opposed to I'm a person with autism. Right? That's tricky for many educators and many people in schools, because we've been taught to use that person first language as opposed to identity first language. And so one of the things that I always stress, and I know Emily stresses this as well, is to ask the people you're having the conversations about. Include them in the conversations and ask them. So some people will like to say they're dyslexic as opposed to saying they have dyslexia. But one of the things that. I, as an advocate, really try to stress to move away from is the phrase special needs and I in part because we all have special needs, [00:11:00] right? And we all have needs and we're all unique. It's also a euphemistic term that a lot of parents feel uncomfortable with. And on the other hand, there are some parents who feel more comfortable with it. So I wish there was a clear cut answer to that. I think Emily has additional. Thoughts on this as well. But I think there's no one right way to talk about it. There are definitely things like the R word. We don't use the R word. Nobody should be using the R word. There are definitely things like that, that I think a lot of people know to move away from and to what they don't know maybe is that we refer to students who are intellectually disabled or have intellectual disabilities instead of using that word at this point. Emily Kircher-Morris: So, the other thing I would just add is about in the neurodiversity community, in the neurodiversity movement, which really is kind of this grassroots movement of disabled activists. I think a big push really has been to just call something what it is, and we don't need to be afraid of it. So there are many people who are [00:12:00] like I'm disabled. Like, I can say that. Don't call me differently abled. Don't say the special needs things. Like, let's just call it what it is because there's no shame in that. And that really goes into the whole process of de stigmatizing and de pathologizing these labels. And so when we're talking about neurodivergent people, it's like, yeah, I'm ADHD, I'm autistic, I'm dyslexic, whatever it is kind of owning it and recognizing that that's part of what makes people who they are and not being ashamed of it. And so, That's, I think, where a lot of the language shifts have been occurring lately, which is very different when Amanda was talking about the person first versus identity first language, so person first being a person with, fill in the blank, versus an autistic person, which is identity first, professionals, medical professionals, educational professionals, people in the mental health field, we have been trained to use person first language to separate the person from the disability. And so this really is a shift that I would say [00:13:00] probably most people, unless they're really involved in the neurodiversity conversation, probably are not aware of. And so it's still a process. I always make sure people know too, most people, I would hope, I would never shame somebody for using the wrong language, although they may explain why they prefer one thing or the other because it just takes time. And again, like I said, if you're not in that world like Amanda and I are, you may not realize that that's what the preference for many people has become. Ross Romano: yeah. Excellent. So the book is still relatively new, I believe. And Emily Kircher-Morris: Yeah, it's only been out about a couple of weeks. Well, not even. Ross Romano: So, so between the time you were writing it and then you know, when this publishes Who knows, maybe this answer is even changing and evolving, but as far as the right now you know, why this book matters now, the time, the timeliness, the urgency can you kind of tell us about what really stands out? Emily Kircher-Morris: Yeah. So Amanda and I have been [00:14:00] working in this space for a really long time. I mean, we both started our careers in education. We're both neurodivergent and grew up at a time when we really didn't have a lot of supports and are raising neurodivergent children. So all of these things really brought into clear focus, specifically the needs that were being, that, that are. The people that we worked with needed. So I started my career in education. I was a teacher and a school counselor. And now I work in the community as a licensed professional counselor supporting neurodivergent kids, young people. And what I realized was that educators need. more information. They need to know how small shifts can make big impacts for their students. And so when you know, I was already doing a lot of work with schools and I had this idea for this book specifically because there really just was nothing out there about it. And I knew that Amanda. To come on and help me with this, first of all, because then I only had to write half a book and also because she just has very complimentary you know, experiences to mine. And so it really gave a [00:15:00] good full picture of everything that we need to consider as we bring this to the schools. Amanda Morin: And I would add both of us work with educators on a regular basis. So we are both sort of in the community, training educators, having conversations with educators. I come from a special education background, so I'm more familiar in a lot of ways with what's happening in special education classrooms and conversations that are happening there. We are moving towards a place where most of our neurodivergent students are not spending their days outside of the general education classroom, which is wonderful, right? And there are neurodivergent students who are sitting in your classroom. You don't even know it because they may not have been identified and or have a diagnosis or anything like that. And when we have. All of these different kinds of students in general education classrooms, what we need is to make sure that all teachers are prepared to teach in different ways and not necessarily different from what they're doing, [00:16:00] but in multiple types of ways. I think I would say that to be clearer. Because teachers and systems are really hungry for this kind of support, they're really looking for ways to make sure that they are helping the students in their classrooms thrive and be successful, and that they as teachers and schools can be successful in educating the students who are in their classrooms right now. Neurodiversity is having kind of a moment, right? And hopefully it's not just a moment, hopefully it's just like a swelling kind of awareness. And while that's happening, while people are having the conversation about what is neurodiversity, what is neurodivergence, it matters what we know about it and how we know to work with those kinds of differences and changes and those kinds of things. Because we want to make sure that we Successful teachers who can raise. up successful students who become successful citizens, right? It's [00:17:00] sort of like this. We're all moving everybody forward to be a really successful member of society. Ross Romano: How many or what percentage of students are currently known to be or like estimated to be neurodivergent? Amanda Morin: That is a tricky question because it really depends. And I think this is where the diagnostic versus identification. thing comes into play. I would say, from a special education perspective, the majority of students who are identified as needing special education services fall into those categories that would be neurodivergent. They have ADHD, they have a specific learning disability, they have a speech or language impairment. Those are the three biggest categories that we see students being identified in. From a diagnostic perspective, Emily can give some more perspective on what that looks like. Emily Kircher-Morris: Yeah. Well, Of course, I'm not going to remember the statistic off the top of my head, but I know some of them. So, for example diagnostically, I think they say about 1 in 36 individuals is autistic. I think it's about 1 in [00:18:00] 10 or 12 that is ADHD. Does that sound right to you, Amanda? And I think they even say about 1 in 5 has a, could qualify for a diagnosis of dyslexia. So, what that means is that. It's a lot of our students. It's a lot of our students overall. And again, not all of them are going to qualify for an IEP. Some of them might qualify for a Section 504 plan, but not pursue that. And so when we put these practices in place in our classrooms again, what's good for neurodivergent students is good for all students. And so we can help all of those individual profiles. Ross Romano: Yeah, I think that's I guess another question is for an educator who may not. Be aware of any student in their class that has a diagnosis or or or they, I guess, have observed or specifically suspected any potential neurodivergence should they still be focusing [00:19:00] on, I guess, the practices here and Kind of what would that initiation look like in an instance where they may or may not be aware, maybe given the numbers, we should probably anticipate that there's at least a couple of students, even if they don't currently have a diagnosis. But yeah, how should a a teacher in their classroom kind of view that. Amanda Morin: I would start by saying those are students who are in your classroom. Regardless of whether or not they are identified, whether they are diagnosed, and as teachers, we've all had the experience of sitting in a classroom and realizing there's a student who doesn't seem to be paying attention the way we would expect them to. There's a student who is always perhaps asking to use the bathroom when it's their time to read out loud, right? There's a student who seems to be sort of daydreaming off in the corner. There's a student who is reacting very strongly to some Thing you're not. getting, right? Like they're having very [00:20:00] strong emotional kinds of reactions or, so there are all of these kinds of things or a student who will use the phrase, what quite often, right? So you'll hear a student say what, and what they're doing is they're giving themselves time to process what you have set out loud. Emily Kircher-Morris: They need to buffer. Amanda Morin: They need to buffer, right? They're loading, right? They're having that loading bar happening. And those are all students who are showing you that they are having trouble accessing the learning in your classroom in one way or another. Right? So I just want to stress that. Some of those things that you see on a normal, typical day in your classroom, may be signs of different minds trying to really connect in your classroom. And if you reframe it like that, you can go, Oh, okay. You know what? Actually. This is going to help if I put regulation strategies in place so I can teach kids how to speak up and express their emotions or can tell me when they need a break, that's going [00:21:00] to help. And you can think of probably three kids right now in your classroom who that can help. So I would say, even if you don't know that you have specific students, even if you can't name them, you will. from putting practices in place that are I mean, we don't want you to change your entire classroom today. Right. And I think Emily alluded to that when she said small changes can make a big impact. We're not saying everybody has to change everything. And I actually would say there are a lot of teachers who are doing a lot of things that are neurodiversity affirming and they don't even know it. Right. So teachers who have visual schedules, teachers who, Write out for students the directions and also give them out loud. Those are neurodiversity affirming practices that are just good practices and you may not even know that you're doing that. So like kudos to you if you're already doing that in your classroom. You're on the path to starting this. Emily, what would you add to that? Emily Kircher-Morris: I, I would add, so really what [00:22:00] we're talking about as well really aligns with universal design for learning. And so this is a concept that basically just means you know, There are things that we put in place for the people who quote unquote need them, but they're universally good for everybody. And so for that teacher who feels like, well, I don't have any of these students in my classroom or it doesn't really matter if I do these things because my kids are all doing fine. These are systemic things that you can do in your classroom. And once you put them in place. Again, they're good for all students, they're good for that classroom, and then who knows who you're going to have next year? Like, there might really need to be some of these things that you've implemented and you just do it with a bit more intentionality. And so, that's really what is happening. I think the other part of it that really is A big piece of it is how we communicate with kids and how we interpret kids behavior. And when we do that from, again, from a neurodiversity affirming perspective, meaning that [00:23:00] we always look for the context of a behavior to understand what's behind it, instead of jumping to a conclusion that it's it's a compliance based issue. And so then it deserves discipline. Like, taking those moments to reflect and try to figure out what's really going on with the student. Like, again, those are good for all kids, but especially for our neurodivergent kids who are more likely to have behaviors that are interpreted as problematic, defiant whatever, fill in the blank. Ross Romano: Yeah. Are there any common classroom practices, whether it's instructional or disciplinary or otherwise that are not they certainly aren't bad in the sense of being totally out of step with what could be effective teaching and learning. Right. And there's no malice behind them, but they're maybe inconsistent with what Is currently known about what would be neurodiversity affirming, does anything come to mind? Emily Kircher-Morris: Yeah, so [00:24:00] what I would start with here is recognizing that behaviorism is something that's basically baked into our schools. And so behaviorism basically means that you know, you have a behavior and you can figure out like what triggered the behavior and then you can give a consequence and then you can either extinguish that behavior or reinforce that behavior. So what are we talking about here? We're talking about reward systems you know, Consequences or like ranking systems, points, whatever it might be that is hopefully going to elicit the behavior from a child that you want. First of all, many neurodivergent kids see right through it. They see it as manipulative and they're like, okay, this doesn't make sense. And the point that I would make with all of these things is that when you. Have those types of systems put in place in your classroom. First of all, the kids who are more of that neuro normative population don't need those systems to behave and to learn. Those are the kids who, if they're doing something or they're having an off day, you can just kind of go, Hey, let's try to figure out what's going on and [00:25:00] try to focus a little bit more, whatever it is. And they're going to do that. And then the kids who quote unquote do need it, meaning that they have. More patterns of behavior that are harder to manage in the classroom, those systems are not going to work. They might give you short term compliance, but they actually don't solve the problem. So if it is a problem of poor executive functioning skills, or difficulty with emotional regulation, or specific sensory needs, Those you might, yeah, sure you might give a kid a point or take away a point or take away their recess or whatever, and they might be able to sit there and look at you for the next 30 minutes and really look like they're focusing, but you haven't actually taught them how to do that. You haven't actually solved that problem. (ad here) Ross Romano: How do you, like, things like masking, right, ways that students might hide their neurodivergent traits, how does that factor into that part of the conversation where again, right, there may be certain [00:26:00] demands that are not super compatible with what is working best for some students, and they may be able to appear at least to be able to comply with that or do it that way or they may just know or believe that. They have to in order to function in whatever the environmental expectations are. But like, what are some of those things and how might they show up? Amanda Morin: So students who mask, right, they're really trying very hard to look like we expect them to. And I think that's an important they're putting on a mask, they're putting on the behavior, the the way that they're doing it. We are telling them they should show up based on the expectations we give them in our classroom, right? And I think that's the first thing I would say. Oftentimes, kids who are masking are kids who are very exhausted at the end of the day. The first time you may hear about a student who you realize [00:27:00] is masking is often from a parent who's coming in and saying to you like, My kid comes home and falls apart. And I think we've all had that experience of hearing that and teachers see a disconnect there, right? We often see a disconnect. Well, they're great in my class. I'm not seeing that in class. And what happens is one it's exhausting. And I'm going to speak as somebody who grew up masking and has children in my household who don't mask. And I think that's important to say, right. And they don't, they just show up as themselves. You know, I have my, all of my children let me tell these stories. So I think it's important to say that before I even do this. One of my sons is what he calls himself an ADHD er. So he has ADHD and autism, right? So he's an autistic ADHD er. He flaps. So it helps him regulate his body. He flaps you can't see me doing it, but I'm flapping my hands back and forth and it just, it helps him sort of calm his body and regulate his thoughts and ground him in space. Right now. If he were in a [00:28:00] classroom where that was discouraged, because it looks different, he would not be able to concentrate on what was happening around him because he would be so, trying so hard to sort of contain that body movement. And he would come home and he would just literally when he, when this was when he was littler, he would come home and he would fall asleep at the end of the day. But like, basically when he just got in the door. So I think part of what I'm trying to say is sometimes you don't see, you see the duck just gliding across the water, but you don't see how it's paddling underneath the water. So, so quickly, right? When we are asking yeah. Our neurodivergent students to look at us like directly at us when we are asking them to understand when we think they're being rude, right? When we are asking them to make sense of tone of voice or facial expression that they may not be able to make sense of, we're trying to get them [00:29:00] to conform to a thing. Right. And that's when that masking comes into play. If you open up sort of your view of what your classroom can look like, and I'm going to be really clear in saying systemically, that's problematic, right? Because as a system, we have an idea of what classrooms should look like. And as teachers, we Want to make sure that we look like we're doing it the right way, but sometimes we have to let go of some of that control to make sure everybody feels like they can show up the way they need to in our classrooms and that may mean you have different areas in your classroom where students can learn where you can have group work. You can have. Quiet work. You can have, I need to pace while I think kind of work, right? Those things that open up opportunities for students to really be who they need to be their best learners helps take down some of that masking a little bit. Ross Romano: Yeah, Emily is, I mean, I guess for the [00:30:00] teacher may be out there who's listening and is thinking, this sounds hard or how can I, how much is. You know, required as far as differentiation, right? And determining what is appropriate for which child and what's maybe not for this other student or. You know, where is there an area in which we can have some type of uniformity around rules, expectations, et cetera? How can that be navigated to determine, you know? Emily Kircher-Morris: well, one thing I would mention is that nobody's saying that with accommodations or supports that there aren't rules or expectations and that those aren't consistent across all students. Some students might need some other types of tools or strategies to be able to manage those expectations. But I feel like that [00:31:00] is I think you actually kind of pegged it right there with that often is, I think the, a normal reaction that a lot of teachers feel like, like, okay, well, my classroom is just going to be chaos. And that is not what we're suggesting or you know, Or what it will be. It really is about setting up the systems. So as far as like how students can regulate. I would also mention bringing kids into the process so that they can be part of that conversation to recognize what works for them and what doesn't. And you can do this with very young children all the way up through high school or, I mean, college, whatever. Where you're helping them be independent in finding what those accommodations are. But what I would say for those teachers who are kind of like, where do I even start? What I guess I would suggest is specifically maybe if you have one or two students in your classroom who do have an accommodation plan, look at those accommodations and see what might [00:32:00] be helpful for other students in your classroom so that you're not just putting it into place for that one student. So for example. Sometimes you'll see that some students are allowed to have a fidget, like they need something in their hands. I know for me, I usually have, and I just don't have any in here with me right now, but something that actually helps me fulfill a little part of my brain that needs some sort of sensory input while I'm doing something. It actually helps me focus because otherwise I'm looking for something to, to fulfill that. And so let's say you decide to have a class set of fidgets in the classroom. For sure, depending on the age of the student, there are at the very beginning, it's going to be very exciting. They're all going to want to try to use the fidgets. So you have some lessons. You say, okay, this is how we use the fidgets. This is how we know that they are tools and not toys. This is how you should be able to notice the impact of this. And after a couple of days, The kids who need it will use them and the kids who don't won't. It really truly is and if it's a problem for an individual [00:33:00] student or whatever, then you try to find an alternative. Okay. You know, something that is not distracting, but you really do have to coach the kids a little bit on how do you know if this is effective, but again, this is just like self regulation stuff that we're teaching kids in our daily conversations. It's not like it takes a lot of time. It's just part of what you integrate into your day. What would you throw in there? Amanda Morin: There are other things that you can integrate into your classroom that will help. Students meet those expectations. And I really want to stress what Emily said, too, is we're not asking teachers to lower their expectations. We're not asking them to have different expectations for the students, because we really, truly believe that all students can achieve those expectations. Right? But there are things like, so, for example, there are students who will benefit from being able to use text to speech or speech to text technology. Right? So they may need to type instead of doing the handwriting if your goal. Isn't to assess handwriting. Maybe you can offer that to [00:34:00] all of the students as an option, right? Audiobooks. It's actually it's interesting. I used to teach kindergarten many years ago, and I would do stations, right? I would have you know learning about apples for example, and I would have the station where we were Counting seeds and at the station where we're doing audio books and I have those like all of those kinds of things actually tap into different kinds of learning and it supports different students and is available to all of those students. Right? So audio books being available to all students. There are things that you can do even things like. Taking breaks, right? Teaching kids if they need to stand up and stretch or if they need to get a drink or that just sort of regulates their body. It gives them a moment to think or giving kids the language. You're all of your students, the language to say, I need a break, or I need a minute to think that through before I answer it, right? Putting those kinds of practices in place are small changes that you can make that [00:35:00] support you. All of your students and are also neurodiversity affirming. Ross Romano: Yeah, and I guess part of that is communication and what's affirming communication and particularly being able to communicate to and among students about the things that are happening in the classroom decisions you're making and how to navigate that and maybe another example would be and you can propose how, what would be a way to handle it? But Johnny maybe has situational mutism, right? And might need to, have some different options for answering questions, being able to write them out, do things that are non verbally. And maybe Tommy does not have that you know, and so how do we. I guess navigate between you know, a student who certainly needs to have some different options. Another 1 who sometimes may decide that they just don't want to do a certain thing [00:36:00] or are there ways to just introduce options and just trust that over the course of time, students will kind of, determine what's working best for them. But I would assume part of that is, you Trying to communicate in some way to have some kind of I don't know, understanding or lack of confusion around why there might be you know, certain options that are available or if it's a UDL approach, I mean, are they just available all the time? I don't know. Yeah. Amanda Morin: are available all the time. And we're teaching kids when they work, right? We're saying you will, this will be easier for you if you do this. This may be harder if you choose the other option, right? That kind of thing. So we're teaching kids how they learn and to sort of monitor whether that's working for them or whether they've actually made it harder for themselves by choosing to listen to a book because All of a sudden, they realize, actually, I can't grasp that information when I'm listening to it. I chose this because it seemed [00:37:00] really cool, but it's not working for me. And give them another option. The other thing is a lot of teachers and a lot of students get sort of, hung up on the idea of, is this fair? Right? And I really want to tackle that question because there's a difference between fair And giving people what they need. Right. And what's fair isn't always what's equal or equitable. And I think that's important to know. Right. There's, there are all sorts of things that we need in daily life as adults that we access that, like, so, for example I don't need to have the lights down low today, but I may another day. Right. I may have had a really, really tough morning and I need my colleagues just to sort of give me some space. Right. And I can say that Emily Kircher-Morris: facts. Amanda Morin: yes, Emily knows this. There are days where like, Emily give me some [00:38:00] space. Right. You know, and our kids are the same, right? We need to be able to give them the opportunity to say like. Today, this just isn't working for me. And I think to some degree when you're saying like they just don't want to there's always a reason like kind of why they don't want to and sort of digging a little bit deeper and asking, being really sort of curious and asking questions like what's going on and like you mentioned situational mutism. There may be students for whom that is a consistent way that they show up. And there may be one day where you have a student who shows up and they don't want to talk, and you find out eventually, like, maybe they had a death in the family, or maybe something is really weighing on them heavily. And providing them with those same ways of sort of communicating, or giving them the opportunity to sort of Not have to communicate is going to be beneficial to them as well. I think I went in a circle there. I'm hoping it's a a useful circle, but Emily Kircher-Morris: We're going to circle back. Actually, so, one of the things actually that I will mention is, first of [00:39:00] all, kids are very used to other kids having different in the classroom, that is not uncommon. And I know sometimes teachers are worried like, well, there, if that person sees the other person doing it, then they're going to want it too. And I feel like that's a really a pretty easy conversation to have in multiple ways. And you set the expectation. That's like I'm going to give different kids what they need in different situations. The other thing I would mention is. When we talk about the universal design specifically, and you're talking about, well, if I give it to this student, then this other student is going to want to use it. Okay. What is the goal of that lesson? What is the objective of that lesson? And if both students can achieve the objective of the lesson by using speech to text, instead of writing it down by hand Or whatever it might be, then let's let them do that because that should be what drives how students access material and show us what they know, as opposed to everyone has to do it the same way. Ross Romano: I mean, if you wouldn't mind taking that even a little bit further, because we have had some conversations on [00:40:00] the series about UDL. But would love to even explore that a little more about what makes it such an effective practice for for creating neurodiversity affirming Amanda Morin: well, I mean, first I would just say you, you had a wonderful conversation with Katie Novak, right? And I know that Katie. Katie could explain UDL to anybody, and I would encourage people to listen to your conversation with Katie because I'm sure she did I know she did an exceptional job of talking about this, but I think when we talk about UDL, people get nervous because it's such a big universal design for learning. It sounds like you're designing an entirely new way of Putting your classroom together, but really what we're talking about is how are we giving kids ways to engage with information that is interesting and motivating to them? Right? So if you're learning about the Civil War, for example, could they read a book? Could they watch you know, a documentary? Could they [00:41:00] listen to a podcast? Right? What are their options there that would be engaging for them? And if they're getting the same information, that's fine, because they're getting the same information in whatever way actually captures their attention and gets them engaged. It's other ways of showing what they know. To write so we're gonna give them multiple ways to show what they know. And I know that sometimes that's not an option because you have like standardized testing and they all have to show it in a certain way. But sometimes right? What if you have give kids the option to write your report? Draw you something amazing to shoot a video, like all of these kinds of things give kids ways to show what they know, because the goal is we want them to be able to show that they've internalized this information. They can make sense of it, and they can apply it. Right? And then the other thing is we're really, UDL is about creating expert learners, right? UDL isn't about us teaching kids how to learn. It's about [00:42:00] us teaching kids to know how they learn, to take over their own learning, to be really eager to learn about things, and that's where, like, that focusing in on your goal, as Emily talked about, really, really matters, and I would say Allison Posey does a really good job of talking about barrier analysis and looking at the things that get in the way of your lessons, things that are, like, You can, like, put it to the side, right? Like, maybe that's not the important part of what I'm trying to teach today. And so, really, narrowing in on thinking through, what is it exactly that I want these students to walk away with from this lesson? And telling them that's what you want them to walk away with is a huge part of a universal design for learning. Because if we don't tell students what it is we want them to know, they're not going to just glean it from context. And it's not actually I think sometimes we think if we tell them ahead of time, they're not going to engage [00:43:00] throughout the lesson. But if we tell them ahead of time, oftentimes you'll see kids who are like, Oh, I know something about this that I want to add to the conversation, or I learned about this. And so you're seeing them really kind of pop in and say, I know more about this. How can I be part of this lesson? Ross Romano: Yeah, but a little bit kind of at the school leadership level to sort of tie this all together. So if the school is wanting to prepare to have more of a school wide affirming environment like. Where does the preparation start? Is it staffing training culture building? Right? Like, what kind of comes 1st? Emily Kircher-Morris: There are a lot of different aspects as far as, I don't know if I know exactly what comes first. Maybe Amanda does. But one thing I would mention that is a key component of this is recognizing that you also have neurodivergent teachers. And creating a culture that allows even the staff the people who are working with the students to talk about their own neurodivergence [00:44:00] without stigma, without shame is a really big piece of this. It also is really important, I think, to Validate that it can be overwhelming for teachers to try to meet all of these needs, but at the same time encouraging them, it's like they're able to do it. It just it is really, it sounds like a bigger lift, a heavier lift than what it probably really is when you take it one step at a time. Amanda Morin: think change starts in multiple ways, right? And I think you, you hit it when you said, is it culture? Is it knowledge? Is it's kind of all of those things, right? The first part of it is as a school leader, giving your teachers permission to change the culture or that you're willing to see culture change. Right. I think that there are many school leaders out there who really are willing to look at things in new ways. What they struggle with to assist systems that they're in. So [00:45:00] making sure that they are able to say to their staff, we're gonna try some new things. I'm going to give you support and professional development around that. So I What and why, I think is really important too, but not just the what and the why, but to say, and we're all learning this together, and it's okay if we don't do it right, exactly right, the first time, and if we only put small changes into place, that's okay, too. But being able to sort of have that culture of, it's okay to iterate, It's okay to fail. It's okay to succeed. It's okay to ask for help. Right. All of those things that are really hard for us as teachers, because we want to feel like we're doing it right from the very beginning. And making sure that you have a place where you can say, we're all learning this together. This is like A club it's a professional learning club. We're all going to figure this out [00:46:00] together. And some people may be more knowledgeable and you can tap into them for support as mentors. And some people may need more support and it's okay to offer that to them as well. Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like the culture piece and what what you said about allowing teachers to kind of build and adjust the culture certainly seems to relate to something I was thinking about earlier when Emily was talking about the fidgets and even some of the different things around debates about like learning styles and UDL and neurodiversity, et cetera, that There's certain, approaches practices that, it's, in the environment where teaching and learning wise, there's a, an effort, I think, to implement and stick with research based practices, right? That I think there are some things that there's some resistance to or opposition because of a feeling that they're either not backed [00:47:00] by research, and I can't remember specifically, but I certainly remember reading something from some kind of education author about the fidgets specifically, and it's not the research doesn't support that they're effective. And I don't know what the research is, or who was in it, or but the point being that it is there. You know, making a case in the classroom to say, look, I've seen evidence. Like, I can tell you that it's helpful in these ways. And it's not about the data of and it's not about the fact that it should work for everybody or, but but it's about how students feel when they're in the classroom. Right. And they're feeling about their engagement and participation, but I guess being able to kind of communicate around. Yes, there are certain ways of teaching reading and math and things like that are practices that are proven and others that aren't, but there's other things that are happening in the learning environment [00:48:00] that are being observed. Cultural environmental and forming a foundation where students feel welcome included as though they can focus and engage. But yeah, I have seen where there is. Not always consensus on some of those things. And I think it's important to have this opportunity to kind of speak to that and talk about why it's it's important to open our minds to trying things. Amanda Morin: Yeah, and I think I'm smiling at this because I can't imagine, I don't think I've ever been in a school where everybody agrees on, on everything, right? You walk into a classroom of professional development and there are tons and tons of ideas, right? And so to some degree, you're right. It's the evidence base, right? Why are we for example, the science of reading component of things we have the evidence. On this, right? When we're talking about how do we adjust our [00:49:00] teaching to the minds that we have, we're really looking at neuroscience, right? So it's not the science. It's not the science of pedagogy to some degree. It's the neuroscience as to how brains interact. And I would actually say UC Stanford, right? Does some really great, interesting work around neuroscience and research on how. Thank you. You know, especially like, students with dyslexia and ADHD how their brains engage with certain types of learning. And so I would point people to the neuroscience. What does the neuroscience say? I sit on the advisory board for the learner variability project for digital promise and all of the work that they do is grounded in The neuroscience as well. And so I would point people to look at some of the strategies and the, and they they list out all of the studies for each strategy, which I think is exceptional because you can say there's research that shows that this is going to help kids learn and there's research that [00:50:00] shows that this is going to help kids feel like they belong and that matters. Equally in learning, right? So, and I would separate out learning from schooling. And I think to me, I talk about this a lot. Emily's heard me talk about this, right? The difference between schooling, which is the routines and things that we do to make sure people know how to navigate a system versus learning. which is that how are you engaging with material? How are you taking that away? How are you able to apply that to real life? And I think sometimes we don't separate out the two. And what we're really talking about is what is the science of learning? What does learning science say? Not always as schooling science say, because I don't know that there is schooling science. Actually, I would have to come back circle back to that one too and see if that was true. But I think following. The science of learning and really know that it's not just about instructional practices. It's also about how is the [00:51:00] brain really set up to feel like they're a brain is set up to feel comfortable enough to learn. And that's really important too. Emily Kircher-Morris: Well, and I think maybe to boil it down just a little bit, recognizing that if you are not regulated. Emotionally, you're not learning. And the things that we're talking about are strategies to help kids feel emotionally regulated, whether that's through how we're communicating with them, whether that's how we're letting them be authentic instead of masking, whether that's how we're fulfilling their sensory needs. All of those things, the bottom line there is we want them to be able to self regulate their emotions so that they are in a place where they are primed to learn. And so, and I do think Anyone can go out there and find a research study, I think, to back up whatever claim they want, if you search hard enough. But ultimately, really the research, again, like Amanda was saying about the [00:52:00] neuroscience, really is showing that this is much more than just a behavior problem or something that we need to extinguish this particular behavior or have kids that all look like they're learning and in the same way. Ross Romano: Well, Emily, I think that would be a great place to stop, but I am going to ask one more question. And it is, if I only had the time, or maybe there was only 20 sheets of paper left in the world and I could only read one chapter of the book, which, which chapter would you recommend? Amanda Morin: I'm looking for what the chapter is that has our teachers shared compact neurodiversity affirming beliefs. Right? I wish I could name the chapter, but I think that's the place I would start is what are, what do, what are the beliefs, right? What is the compact of shared beliefs that a neurodiversity affirming teacher has? And it's eight things. And there are eight things that you can look at as how do you change. The way you are approaching your classroom. That's where I would start. Emily, what's your, where would you [00:53:00] start? Emily Kircher-Morris: I would, I think that that's a good place to start. I will also just add that is a what's the word I'm looking for, Amanda? It goes along with the Neurodivergent Student Bill of Rights in the same chapter. And so they kind of are a pair of documents. And so that's a great starting point. Closely following I think is the chapter about neurodiversity affirming IEPs and learning plans, because I think that that is a place that we can make a lot of change that is really happening frequently in our schools. So I think that that's another really One that's easy to implement and change pretty quickly and can make a big difference for some of our neurodivergent learners. Ross Romano: Excellent. Well, listeners, you can read it all, and I, don't think you need to necessarily read it sequentially. You can read the different parts and absorb them. And Emily said earlier that by having a coauthor it only made her write half a book, but it's actually a pretty long and dense book. So I think they each wrote a [00:54:00] book. Emily Kircher-Morris: That's probably true. Amanda Morin: that's, that's probably accurate. Ross Romano: a lot in here. So there's plenty to pick up on, but it really is I think there's always more, but it's quite comprehensive as far as the number of topics covered and addressed to really deeply understanding the topic would love to give you both an opportunity as we're wrapping up to tell our listeners a little bit more about where to find you, your other resources, Emily. You have your podcast, and you each have your other books. Emily, if you want to go first, and then Amanda. Emily Kircher-Morris: Yeah. So if you like to listen to podcasts, as I'm sure you do, because you're listening to this my podcast is The Neurodiversity podcast. Additionally, Amanda and I have released a limited series podcast that actually aligns with the book. You do not have to read the book to, to listen to the podcast, but basically there is an episode that aligns with each chapter and kind of gives some supplemental insights and information and interviews. To go along with that. So, if you want to do a book study at your school, like that would be [00:55:00] a great way to supplement that. Or again, it might just be useful for you to listen to. And then I guess you know, you can find me anywhere on, on social media and Amanda, what else would, what else should I, should we say here? Amanda Morin: I would add to that. We co facilitate a a membership educator hub called neurodiversity University where we have educators. We give them the opportunity to come to office hours to have discussions to have experts come in and do webinars and to have consultations and have. Okay. These really kind of cool five minute PD. So if you're a part of the Neurodiversity University Educator Hub, you can share out those five minute PDs. So if you have five minutes to share something with somebody, that's the perfect way to do it. Like Emily, I can be found pretty much on most social media. I would encourage people if they wanted to see what other books we have written, we are sort of in the field of special education, twice exceptionality, all of these sort of complimentary things to neurodiversity affirming practices. Emily Kircher-Morris: [00:56:00] Yeah, so if people are interested in the Educator Hub, they can go to neurodiversity. university and click on the tab for Educator Hub and find out more information there. And additionally, if you're interested in the podcast that I mentioned, creating Neurodiversity Affirming Schools, or in having Amanda or me come and speak, you can go to our website, neurodiversityaffirmingschools. com. Ross Romano: Excellent. Well, listeners, we'll put those links below. Make it really easy for you to click around and find everything. You also can get the book Neurodiversity Affirming Schools from Free Spirit Publishing. You can get it wherever you buy your books. We'll put a link to that below as well. Please do also subscribe to the authority. If you're not already, we will continue to have conversations every week with authors around all the topics that matter in school leadership and in schools and in all the various things that you're working on. So we will keep that coming or you can visit the podcast. network to learn about. More shows [00:57:00] that are designed for you, Amanda and Emily. Thanks so much for being here. Amanda Morin: Thank you. Emily Kircher-Morris: Thanks so much for having us.