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Matt Hill | Sovereign Computing | Simply Bitcoin IRL · Simply Bitcoin

0:01
Yo, welcome to another episode of Simply Bitcoin IRL.
0:04
Today's guest is Matt Hill. He's a CEO of start9 labs.
0:09
One of my favorite companies in the space.
0:11
So many interesting things they're doing, they just
0:14
released the embassy Pro, which my opinion is going to change
0:17
everything. We're going to get to all that
0:18
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0:46
I want to say hello to my guest. Matt, it's always a great time.
0:51
I don't think we've done a simply Bitcoin RL before I think
0:54
we've just done the Regular Show.
0:56
But welcome man, and I'm and I was and I was telegraphing you
1:00
because you know, for a fact because you so to kind of give
1:05
everyone the the short story, right?
1:07
We were on the floor of Bitcoin 2022 and I went to the start9
1:12
booth and Matt and I knew each They're from before, and I went
1:16
up to him and he's, like, Nico. I gotta tell you about the
1:20
embassy Pro and, you know, like I don't really buy things on the
1:22
floor, but when he was convincing me was like, here,
1:25
taking, you know, that Meme take my.
1:28
So, I, you know, I put money on the pre-sale of the embassy Pro
1:33
and I'm really excited for it. I'm really looking forward to it
1:37
because one of the things guys that I have issues with with,
1:41
for example, Raspberry Pi as my node is Unfortunately it takes a
1:46
long time to sink sometimes so especially if you've been using
1:50
that Bitcoin wallet for a long time, but the embassy Pro is a
1:55
Workhorse. I think it has a an I-9 in it.
1:59
Is that correct or an i7 7 and i7?
2:03
So what is the embassy Pro? What is your logic behind it?
2:07
And who's it for at? Give me one second.
2:12
I actually just had someone walk in real quick so we're trying to
2:15
join the Twitter. Basis so that we can be live
2:17
with the company account here and I'll good password manager
2:21
sharing issues. Yeah don't worry about it.
2:25
It stinks it stinks. Sorry question Embassy Pro who's
2:29
it for? Why do we do it?
2:31
Yes. Was it for why we do it?
2:32
Why did you do it? Better said okay, because the
2:36
Raspberry Pi as more and more people are beginning to
2:40
recognize has some sort of essential shortcomings.
2:45
When It comes to reliability and scalability of these self hosted
2:50
software systems. The Raspberry Pi is really
2:52
designed for originally children to kind of Tinker with many PCs
2:58
and learn how to do coding. And to you know host software
3:04
early on the Bitcoin ecosystem adopted Raspberry Pi's as the
3:07
go-to easiest cheapest yet adequately powerful way to run a
3:13
Bitcoin node and to be fair that's True.
3:16
Right. Raspberry Pi's are fine.
3:17
In fact, the embassy one we continue to sell with the
3:21
Raspberry Pi as our single-board computer base.
3:24
It just has its limitations and those come in a variety of
3:27
factors primarily from an inadequacy of power.
3:32
So for instance if you want to plug in like a big HDD or
3:35
multiple ssds into the Raspberry Pi it's going to fail.
3:38
It just doesn't provide an enormous amount of actual power
3:44
to device. Is that are plugged into it and
3:46
so can lead to things like data corruption.
3:48
If you attempt to do that, number two is the CPU is just
3:52
not super strong. So when it comes to like sinking
3:55
Bitcoin, that's going to be the primary bottleneck and you're
3:58
going to get synch times anywhere from like two days to
4:01
two weeks, depending on a variety of other factors like
4:04
bandwidth and whether or not you're running a four gig pie or
4:07
naked pie. But anyway, long story short,
4:10
the Raspberry Pi just is kind of a entry-level beginners device
4:14
and What we need for not only Bitcoin and lightning and all
4:19
these layer 3 applications that are coming online.
4:21
But also for just the whole host of other applications out there
4:24
that have nothing to do with Bitcoin but are really important
4:27
to the concept of self sovereignty.
4:29
Privacy censorship resistance. They just have, they have
4:33
compute and RAM and disk needs that the Raspberry Pi just
4:36
wasn't going to fulfill out of the box.
4:38
So we knew something more powerful was necessary and we
4:42
took the initiative to get ahead of that.
4:44
I mean, way before, The industry was even moving away from the
4:47
Raspberry Pi. We had the embassy Pro already
4:50
in the works already pre-selling it.
4:52
And so we just we knew where the where the trend was going and
4:55
decided to get ahead of it and put the best biggest baddest
4:59
thing out there. The embassy Pro is, you know,
5:01
like you said, it's an i7 32 gigs of RAM comes with a 2
5:05
terabyte, nvme and it is based on pure isms pure OS, which by
5:12
as part of, as part of the boot loader, disables the Management
5:16
engine, which is sort of the known back door of Intel chips.
5:20
Purism has managed to disable that in firmware and so it's
5:25
also the most secure device that you can get that, is based on an
5:30
Intel chip. So, yeah, and that's exactly
5:34
what you told me on the floor, the Bitcoin conference and I was
5:36
really excited. And what got me excited was when
5:39
you told me he's like, because I'm an electron junkie.
5:42
I've been using it for a while and people like Sparrow Sparrow
5:44
Sparrow but I do It's my taste and you got to leave me alone
5:49
and the Raspberry Pi. It just takes so long to sink,
5:53
right? Especially if you've been using
5:55
that Bitcoin wallet for a long time and you just have all these
5:58
addresses, it just takes at least a minute or two.
6:03
And then another thing that you were telling me that was really
6:05
fascinating, was this concept of being?
6:08
And I know that you told me over telegram, that it's not going to
6:10
be available to quarter one, but this being this, this ability to
6:14
be able to connect to your Our node remotely over clear net.
6:18
And you were telling me on how you were going to do that behind
6:22
a domain and all these very interesting stuff.
6:25
So, could you tell the audience about that?
6:27
Because I think ideally, that's what I, that's what I've been
6:31
looking for a long time, right? You know, if I'm overseas, if
6:35
I'm traveling, which I do a lot, right?
6:37
And, you know, I spin up my my electrum wallet, unfortunately,
6:41
you know, I'll connect either you could do through tour, but
6:45
just kind of Of. Yeah, you know it's kind of very
6:46
slow or what I mostly do is of course, you know I have
6:51
different Bitcoin wallets. I turn on a VPN and I just use
6:55
the block stream the block stream electrum server right and
7:00
that sucks, right? Because you're doxing some of
7:02
those Bitcoin addresses to block stream and oh, I love Adam.
7:06
I think it's a great company but still ideally, you know, this is
7:09
Bitcoin. You want to minimize that trust.
7:11
So could you talk a little bit about that functionality that
7:14
you guys are looking to? Implement into the embassy Pro.
7:18
Yeah. And and to be clear, it will not
7:20
just be the embassy Pro primarily and really almost
7:24
exclusively the value. Add that start9 produces is
7:27
Embassy OS, the embassy Pro is just a powerful Hardware device
7:33
that comes pre-installed with Embassy OS, but then you have
7:35
the MC 1. Both of these things will be
7:37
fully capable of serving over clear net as you described, but
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I'll provide a little bit more background and context here.
7:44
So, Ali, we offered Embassy OS overt, or only.
7:50
So not even on the local area network of your home.
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The only way to use your Embassy and any of its installed
7:56
Services was Viet or V3 hidden URLs hidden services.
8:00
So, for instance, when you spin up your Embassy, it would spit
8:03
out a brand-new never before seen tour, V3 hidden service URL
8:08
that you could then visit to administer your device from
8:11
anywhere including when you were sitting right next to it.
8:14
And we started Way, because it was a plug-and-play had
8:17
built-in, not punching was Anonymous and private by default
8:21
and it just worked, okay? It works slowly as most people
8:25
know about tour, but it did just kind of work what we did
8:29
immediately after that was we went to the total other end of
8:33
the spectrum and implemented Lan or dot local, support such that
8:37
if you happen to be next to your device or on the same, local
8:41
area network Wi-Fi network, as your device then you could talk
8:45
Talk to it, not over the internet, you would just talk to
8:48
it on the local area network, which is faster than clear that
8:52
because it's not leaving the network at all.
8:55
It's just the most direct connection you can have.
8:58
So the way it exists currently is that when you are home, you
9:02
use dot local for both your Embassy and all of its services.
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Each service gets its own unique dot.
9:08
Local address, your Embassy gets its own unique local address and
9:12
then when you're on the go you access your Embassy and all of
9:15
Services from their unique. Dot onion URLs, and access it
9:20
over tour. So this is a nice dual strategy
9:22
for super fast and secure at home, super slow and secure on
9:28
the go. And what we need is things in
9:31
between, okay, because the trade-offs associated with using
9:36
say clear net, like a.com domain to access your Embassy and its
9:42
services on the go. Our minimum Amal for many people
9:47
and in many use cases right there.
9:49
Are some instances where it's like absolutely not I'm not
9:52
allowing this thing that I am self-hosting to go anywhere near
9:57
the DNS providers and certificate cabal that has come
10:02
to dominate what we call. Clarinet Clarinet, really being
10:05
defined as SSL plus DNS so when we say clear that that's what we
10:10
mean we mean SSL plus DNS and both of those things involve A
10:16
trusted third parties, not that they can see everything that
10:20
you're doing. Not that there's necessarily a
10:22
huge privacy concern, but there's definitely censorship
10:26
concerns. There may be back doors that
10:29
were unaware of. So, it's just kind of this, like
10:32
Realm of you can and probably will do it for certain things,
10:37
but it was super important for us to First build out, the
10:40
totally Sovereign, local area, network and tour points of
10:45
access. Us before building, something
10:47
that has any trade-offs at all with regard to privacy
10:51
censorship resistance and general sovereignty.
10:54
However, we are doing it and it is coming.
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And one of the main reasons that we're doing clear, net properly,
10:58
defined like I just said, is for businesses and content creators
11:03
and organizations of any kind because very rarely, are you
11:07
going to be a content creator and tell people that they can
11:10
find your blog or podcast on gibberish dot onion, URL.
11:16
On it. And by the way you have to use a
11:17
Tor Browser that's just not you're not going to get a lot of
11:21
followers, right? Because it's very esoteric and
11:23
kind of scary sounding and not a lot of people are going to do
11:26
it. If you're an organization say
11:28
like a, you're not going to turn to your congregation and tell
11:31
them all to download a Tor Browser and use that to access
11:35
the church you know, Community Forum so that they can talk and
11:38
interact with other other members.
11:40
So clear, net is the way here which is that in the near
11:43
future. As you said, q1 Target.
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And next year, you will be able to reserve a clear net domain.
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Either your own choosing or bootstrap one through start9.
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Like you know, Nico dot start 9. Me, or something like that in
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order to host, both your Embassy and its main dashboard as well
12:04
as any and every service that you choose to also strapped on
12:09
to that domain or subdomain thereof.
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So, for instance, you will be able to let's say you're running
12:15
an e-commerce. A store that sells stickers and
12:19
you don't want to tell people, to go to gibberish dot onion
12:22
domain to shop. You'd rather have them go to
12:25
store dot, simply Bitcoin.com and host.
12:31
Your self-hosted BT's Heap. A server store.
12:35
At that domain, you will be able to do that.
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Meaning it's being served from your Embassy, in your home, to
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the world, at a very accessible clear net domain.
12:45
This also So does wonders for things like lightning where Tor
12:48
nodes can become unreliable and therefore lose reputation in the
12:53
rankings. Clear.
12:54
Net is just more reliable, it's faster.
12:58
But again, it does come with this trade-off of you are.
13:02
Now involving we'll call it. The incumbents of the existing
13:06
internet, you are now involving the registrar's, and the DNS
13:10
providers, and the certificate authorities.
13:14
So it's not without Cost. Absolutely.
13:17
They mean and there's trade-offs with everything, right?
13:19
I'm not an engineer, but I always say that in engineering,
13:22
there's trade-offs, there's pros and cons, and I think that this
13:24
is no different. But again, I think that this
13:27
just adds more tools to the Arsenal for individuals to pick
13:31
and choose. Now, let's and is really
13:34
interesting, but we are talking about SSL and DNS, right?
13:37
And just because that's what it is, the centralization of the
13:41
current Internet and because of that centralization, right?
13:45
Right? It has inevitably been co-opted
13:47
by government, right? Is that something that concerns
13:50
you? Because the that's the vast
13:53
majority, you know, of Internet users that just how it works.
13:58
Right. We do know for example, the
14:01
hostility not only from Europe right saying that they want to
14:04
kyc certain software wallets. You had the digital assets
14:08
framework released by The Biden Administration.
14:11
Clearly there is hostility by governments.
14:15
Early. Because this is a threat to
14:16
their Monopoly, on the issuance of money and control of people
14:20
by having that Monopoly on money.
14:23
Does that concern you? And where do you see this going?
14:26
Is this, and I've heard this before, Matt.
14:28
And perhaps, you could elaborate on this, from what I heard is
14:32
it's really an arms race, right? It's we must innovate faster
14:36
than they can regulate. So what are your thoughts on all
14:38
that? What do you see your business is
14:41
based on all this. So I'm sure that these are a lot
14:43
of things that you've been that you think.
14:45
Out a lot. We do so clear, net and our
14:52
implementing. It is part of a much larger and
14:55
longer term strategy. We need adoption.
14:59
Okay we need people to adopt what is really radical
15:03
technology and oftentimes to Garner adoption of radical
15:08
technology. You have to make it somewhat
15:12
compatible with and familiar too.
15:15
Something that already exists. Otherwise it's just too scary.
15:20
Now for Hardline bitcoiners and, you know, sort of our initial
15:25
market and community. And people who have supported
15:27
us, that's not such a crazy thing.
15:30
Like they're willing to go out on a limb and try something new.
15:33
It's sort of what Bitcoin does to you.
15:35
It sends you down this rabbit hole and suddenly you're, you
15:37
know, there's the memes of somebody going from like a
15:40
corporate job with a tie on to just being like a hairy person
15:43
in the woods and that's what it does to you.
15:45
And so, but that's not the most most of the world right now and
15:49
you know we really to win this need eventually a lot of people
15:56
switching over to the new technology.
15:58
Otherwise the old technology will just persist through
16:01
inertia. And so while we're not
16:03
necessarily ready for Mass adoption right now, we have to
16:07
start taking measures to get ready for them.
16:10
And part of that is this clear. Net story of enabling people.
16:15
To self host on the existing internet as opposed to what we
16:20
currently have which is self-hosting on either the local
16:24
area network of your home, which is super lonely.
16:26
And allows you to interface with things but doesn't allow others
16:29
to or two overt or which is not only sort of inherently slow.
16:35
But is also under attack and has been for many, many months.
16:39
And so is very unstable and unreliable.
16:42
So what we need is something familiar.
16:45
Sure, that content creators businesses and other
16:49
organizations can get on board with what we need more than
16:52
anything is organizations and content creators who opted for
16:58
self-hosting, but their audiences and employees and
17:04
partners, or whoever they're interacting with, don't have to
17:08
know it, right? Like they shouldn't realize that
17:11
it's totally Sovereign under the hood.
17:13
These people, your followers And the congregation members, for
17:17
example, should just feel like they're using a normal website,
17:21
not realizing that this website is private and self-hosted under
17:27
the hood. And then gradually, they can
17:29
learn about this and then they themselves can adopt this
17:33
technology for their families. And then individual members of
17:36
these families can adopt it for themselves as an individual.
17:42
And so, we see it as that's the progression is.
17:45
As we go after the people who have reach and get them using
17:48
the technology, but in order to do that, it needs to be familiar
17:52
to their audiences and then we sort of spread to the edges from
17:57
there. So, that is why we're doing,
18:01
clear, net. We also recognize that there is
18:03
no future of this networking strategy.
18:06
We are out to destroy clear, net wholesale over the next decade
18:13
or so it's going to take a while.
18:15
But that destruction or you know replacement begins next year.
18:20
So internally I have been messaging to the team and and
18:24
will now begin messaging. Sort of externally that 2023 for
18:29
start9 is the year of design and it is the year of networking.
18:33
And when I say networking I don't mean like shaking hands
18:36
with people. I mean, networking strategies.
18:38
How can computers talk to each other?
18:45
Traffic in geographically, dispersed places around the
18:47
world without compromising on privacy and anonymity without
18:52
involving trust but gaining the benefits of clear, net speeds
18:59
and familiarity and it's a really tough problem to solve.
19:04
The good news is, is that there are multiple people working on
19:07
this problem. Okay, there's a whole category
19:10
of Technologies products and teams right now that are working
19:15
On what ultimately amount to the same concept, which is called
19:20
whole punching. This idea that you can perform
19:24
natural reversal that you can get a computer that is behind a
19:27
Nat basically behind a private Network.
19:30
And another computer that is either public like a public IP,
19:34
or is itself, also behind a Nat. How do you get these two things?
19:40
To not only discover each other in a decentralized trust list?
19:45
Way. But then actually communicate
19:47
with each other in an anonymous and private way and there's
19:53
there's a few different strategies off the top of my
19:55
head, forgive me, people, I've talked to, if I leave you out of
19:59
this, there's a few that come to mind.
20:03
So there is sink thing which is an existing application that
20:07
enables syncing across multiple devices.
20:11
There is ipfs uses, a similar hole punching.
20:15
Gee, you have things like in the Bitcoin space, you have like
20:19
synonym dot to you have, impervious AI, you have Keat,
20:23
which is a peer-to-peer video, conferencing app that is built
20:27
on hole. Punch hole punch is a closed
20:30
Source piece of software at the moment.
20:33
So it's not recommended at least until they open it up.
20:36
But is itself built on something called hyper core and Hyper
20:40
cores this way of basically arriving at agreed-upon state of
20:44
a system. Mmm without having to maintain
20:47
an entire history like a blockchain.
20:48
So hyper core in theory, kind of obsoletes are kind of nullifies,
20:57
many of the purported use cases of a lot of these altcoins or
21:01
networks that are like trying to do super fast blocks and stuff
21:05
like that. We all know it's not going to go
21:06
anywhere, but the idea of arriving at State without having
21:12
this sort of Byzantine, you know.
21:15
Fault-tolerant consensus system underneath it, meaning it won't
21:20
resist a wholesale large-scale nation-state attack, but for
21:25
most use cases on most days, it's going to be perfectly
21:29
adequate for you on a private Network.
21:32
So I know that that was probably a lot of gibberish.
21:35
Ultimately, what this amounts to is this throughout the year of
21:38
2023, the number of different ways that you will be able to
21:44
access And use both your Embassy and all of the services running
21:50
on your Embassy and the ability of other people to access and
21:55
use those Services if you so choose meaning, you want people
21:58
to shop at your store. The number of ways that that
22:02
will be possible are going to proliferate.
22:05
We are then going to take all of these different networking
22:09
strategies liked or local area network, clear net, any form of
22:15
Hole punching, you know, which always involves some third-party
22:19
server that stores. You know, ephemeral IP and Port
22:23
information. All of these things are going to
22:25
be buried. We're going to offer you skate
22:27
them. We are not going to burden the
22:29
user with understanding anything that I just said, Embassy OS
22:34
will dynamically assess the situation like who is trying to
22:41
access what and in what environment and ants and
22:45
essentially select the optimal way of connecting to that thing
22:52
maximizing for Speed, security, privacy and anonymity in order
22:58
to facilitate the connection without you necessarily even
23:01
understanding how that connection happened.
23:04
Obviously, if you want more granular control, you will be
23:07
able to have it as, and you can go in and disable or enable
23:11
different strategies based on your threat model.
23:15
And risk tolerance of course. And and I love this man and it's
23:20
really fascinating and didn't sound like a bunch of gibberish
23:22
to me. I think what you're doing is
23:25
really fighting for because we kind of have to take a step back
23:29
for people to understand how the internet works today, right?
23:32
The internet works today where is if I want to message?
23:35
Matt, let's just the most simple example really right?
23:40
You mean if I use signal, that is great even if I use
23:43
protonmail, which is great You know, they believe in encryption
23:47
they don't want. They don't want to access your
23:48
messages. Unfortunately, I can't just send
23:52
a message directly to Matt. It has to go from me to a signal
23:56
server to a proton server and then it goes to Matt, right?
24:00
And what I believe what you guys are fundamentally doing and I
24:03
think that the Bitcoin node and at love Bitcoin for this reason
24:07
is the Trojan Horse in all this, right?
24:10
It's the reason as to why someone would run a dedicated
24:13
Computing device server, whatever You want to call it?
24:16
That's what I believe is the end goal here.
24:20
Now, Matt, the thing that worries me and and something
24:24
that I've learned over the last five, six years as a Bitcoin
24:28
educator is unfortunately human nature, right?
24:33
And unfortunately, a lot of people, you know, Benjamin
24:35
Franklin has that famous quote, right?
24:38
That the people that would trade, you know, Liberty for
24:41
security, deserves neither, and what I've learned right?
24:44
Unfortunately, Really specifically and developed
24:47
countries in a developing country.
24:49
You don't have that luxury, right?
24:51
But in developed countries, a lot of people tend to Pick
24:56
convenience, right? And that's just a sad reality.
24:59
How do you propose making Sovereign Computing, as
25:05
convenient for individuals as the centralized co-opted systems
25:11
that we have today? Great point.
25:15
And then great question. I want to comment on the point
25:17
and then I'll answer the question.
25:18
So the first point being about signal protonmail, basically,
25:22
these privacy-preserving hosted centralized Services, it is far
25:30
worse than your characterization of it.
25:32
And here's why not only is a signal and that's not a pun,
25:37
right? Not the electrical signal to use
25:40
signal the messaging app going from your device.
25:44
To a signal server to your counterparties device.
25:47
So you're having a chat with me and it's going like, this
25:49
signals sitting right in the middle.
25:51
Presumably that is end-to-end encrypted such that signal
25:57
itself. Cannot read the messages but as
26:00
you stated they can definitely do like Network graph analytics.
26:04
They know who you're talking to, they know when you're talking to
26:07
them and oftentimes that alone is undesirable or can even be
26:12
incriminating in certain Circumstances.
26:14
And in certain jurisdictions it's worse than that because
26:18
signal and I was finding a trying to search for like a
26:22
nuanced way to say this the other day.
26:23
And at some point I'll put a tweet out a little thread that
26:26
kind of explains this but maybe explaining it here will actually
26:28
help me compose this when a piece of centralized hosted
26:34
software advertises itself as open source that can actually be
26:40
a negative thing. Okay, and here's why because it
26:43
You a very false sense of security.
26:45
A lot of people when they hear signal is open source they just
26:49
go from A to Z and sort of assumed that the app they're
26:54
using on their phone and the servers with which they're
26:57
communicating through or through which they're communicating are
27:01
actually running that code. Mmm who have no idea what code
27:09
is running on your phone or on their servers.
27:13
Single could absolutely right a bunch of Open Source Code
27:17
publish it. And then run some other fucking
27:19
coat on their server. And you have no way of
27:22
validating this. So in fact, if your signal and
27:27
if signal is captured and I'm not saying that they are, it's
27:31
actually just a giant net for everyone who wants to be
27:35
private. Okay.
27:36
And there's a, there's a maximum in will call it surveillance in
27:41
the surveillance industry that Pretty much guides the entire
27:46
strategy for Dragnet surveillance which is good guys.
27:51
Don't hide bad guys. Do hide that is the overarching
27:56
maximum so what you can do with this knowledge, right?
28:00
And it's wrong. Of course, right.
28:02
Good guys hide. Because they value their privacy
28:05
but that's not the maxim that they're that they're seeking
28:07
what they're saying is anyone who openly seeks
28:11
privacy-preserving anonymous, Encrypted technology is
28:16
presumably or potentially a bad guy.
28:19
So we're going to look much closer at them.
28:22
So, with that maximum mind, pretty much every centralized
28:25
hosted service that advertises itself as the private thing or
28:29
the anonymous thing is potentially a giant fucking net
28:32
in your walking right into it, you're better off just using
28:36
Facebook. Okay, you're better off just
28:38
like using open things that because there that's not where
28:42
they're looking, they assume that The ones who's using those
28:44
things is totally benign and a good guy because they're not
28:48
trying to hide. So it's this really nasty
28:51
situation where it's almost impossible to be private.
28:55
You either have to communicate on things that are not private
28:58
inherently or you have to communicate on things that you
29:00
think are private. But could be anything at all.
29:04
We are the Middle where the the way to get through that, which
29:08
is self-hosting, right? The only way that you can know
29:12
that the privacy C code and technology that you are using is
29:17
actually preserving. Your privacy, and anonymity is
29:20
to host it yourself. That's the only way.
29:23
And unfortunately, that is just really hard to do.
29:26
Or at least it has been traditionally, which is why we
29:29
exist. That's our reason for existence
29:31
is to make self-hosting easy. Okay.
29:35
So that's just an elaboration on your first comment.
29:37
It's not it's much worse than many people think, okay?
29:41
Number two, I don't remember. Yes, was just convenient its
29:45
convenience right there, which by the way, great explanation
29:48
and that absolutely blew my mind because at the end of the day,
29:51
yeah, I'm pulling up my protonmail app and it says end
29:54
end-to-end encrypted. But again, you're taking their
29:58
word for it. And that's a really good point.
29:59
I never thought about that. So Matt, the original question
30:04
was sorry about human nature and convenience, right, the sad
30:07
reality is the vast majority of people are always going to pick
30:12
convenience just because it's just human nature.
30:15
It is what it is. I've learned this being a
30:18
Bitcoin educator for years now. Yeah, let me just not take self
30:22
custody, I have to wait for FTX to blow up a rug pull needs to
30:26
happen for me to be like, okay, not your keys, not your Bitcoin.
30:30
So and it applies the same thing to Sovereign Computing.
30:33
Right? Unless and this is the, I
30:36
believe this is just the reality unless you make it as
30:39
convenient, right? For someone.
30:43
Or close to it as convenient for someone to have their own
30:49
dedicated, you know, Bitcoin node which you guys already
30:52
doing, which eventually becomes their own dedicated server of,
30:56
which they can have communications and all of that
30:58
other stuff. How do you make it?
31:00
How do you incentivize individuals to do that?
31:04
Because, you know, the if enough people don't do this, then isn't
31:09
going to be very easy for government's intelligence
31:12
agencies the Three letter agencies to kind of single out,
31:16
you know who is doing what right isn't.
31:19
It kind of, you know, the the the Bitcoin bought model BSE
31:23
numinous, power in numbers, is that required for this?
31:28
And what do you think your solution would be to the
31:31
convenience factor? I'm going to add to this a
31:34
little bit and then I want to get your thoughts.
31:36
Matt, everyone has a router at their home.
31:39
Everyone kind of already has a dedicated device that's
31:42
constantly Ogden to the internet and that seems like a great
31:48
excuse to get a to get a Bitcoin, note in there, or a
31:53
dedicated Sovereign server in there.
31:55
So, what are your thoughts on this problem?
31:57
I know you've thought about this.
31:58
So let me know onto the first one first, let's talk about
32:05
convenience as the Battleground, you're right?
32:09
That is exactly where this battle is taking place.
32:13
In any purchase that a consumer makes or an individual.
32:17
You know, in any value transaction.
32:19
There's a cost-benefit analysis that everyone is making whether
32:21
it is super subconscious and implicit or whether they're
32:25
explicitly, you know, researching all the pros and
32:27
cons of Any Given having any given purchase and traditionally
32:34
the cost-benefit analysis that people have done and are
32:37
continuing to do in many cases when it comes to SAS software as
32:41
a service cloud computing. If I want to think of it that
32:43
way apps on your phone that plug into third-party servers which
32:47
they all do cost-benefit analysis that people have done
32:50
on that has been pretty lopsided.
32:51
They have said, this thing is free frickin cheap if not
32:56
totally free and it's got loads of benefits.
33:00
It allows me to do such and such on my computer and the costs are
33:06
super low. Again, if not free, there's
33:08
something in the back of their mind that tickles them that
33:11
says, Where is the Real cost, right?
33:14
And more and more. They're starting to figure out
33:17
what that real cost is this phrase that if you're not paying
33:21
for the product, you are the product.
33:23
I'm very happy that that is becoming popularized.
33:27
I still don't think people fully understand what that means, but
33:31
at least it's starting to enter. The general public Consciousness
33:35
is that when you are the product, the cost is basically
33:40
everything about you. The goal of any Cloud computing
33:44
or SAS company is to profile you as best as they possibly can.
33:50
And I don't even mean this in like a your Bob type of profile
33:53
you're just number XYZ, right? It's not super personal.
33:57
It's just that their goal is to understand everything about you.
34:01
Not only so that they can improve the products that you
34:05
are using of theirs. But also so that they can sell
34:08
that data to advertisers or Interested parties, write maybe
34:15
government and so they're essentially monetizing your data
34:21
and your identity, everything about you and more and more
34:26
people are starting to recognize this hidden cost.
34:30
This sort of indirect cost of these products and they're
34:33
starting to reject them. And this is expressing itself.
34:37
Ironically, through regulation and laws, right?
34:41
You actually have policy Now, coming into play that requires
34:46
SAS providers, Cloud providers app, developers to minimize,
34:51
what they collect about you, and to make it and to be transparent
34:55
about what they're collecting about you, and, to afford, you
34:59
ways of opting out of that collection, which means that
35:04
more and more. These companies are not going to
35:07
be able to monetize you as an individual, not going to be able
35:12
to product. As you to the same extent that
35:14
they used to be able to, which means that they're actually
35:18
going to, interestingly be pivoting to more of a normal
35:23
business model, which is to charge you money.
35:26
You know, I've said this a few times before and you can
35:29
continue to mark my words that over the coming years, and
35:32
decades pretty much, every piece of software that you use will be
35:38
paid for on a subscription, recurring Revenue basis.
35:43
The free tears of these things are going to get smaller and
35:46
smaller and smaller, and the costs are going to get higher
35:50
and higher and higher until you are basically getting nickel and
35:54
dimed out of your ability to pay rent because of all the
35:57
streaming services and apps that you are using on your phone.
36:02
And as that happens, more and more people are going to the
36:07
cost-benefit analysis is going to begin shifting because the
36:10
cost is no longer hidden the To direct an apparent.
36:15
And so they're going to start looking at these apps willing.
36:17
Hmm, well, it does these things for me, but it also costs $20 a
36:21
month. And so I'm going to not use it
36:25
or I'm going to look for an alternative.
36:28
Secondly, and to the other side of your question, which is the
36:34
convenience portion, the perception of benefit, okay?
36:39
The perception of benefit of say, some, Centralized powerful
36:45
tech company that made an app is really, really high.
36:48
They assume that it's going to work.
36:49
Awesome. They assume that, you know,
36:50
since it's so big and everyone uses it, that it's good.
36:53
Like the perception of benefit is very, very high.
36:55
And when they think about like, Indie open source kind of Off
36:58
the Grid do-it-yourself software, there's a perception
37:01
that it is lacking. It is harder to use.
37:04
It is harder to set up and to be fair, these perceptions are
37:09
largely accurate or at least have been for the last couple of
37:13
Decades. Because these centralized
37:14
companies are very wealthy and have been able to Garner, these
37:18
massive valuations and sell stock for over, you know, 40x
37:23
Revenue type of stuff. They've been able to hire giant
37:26
teams of developers to create wonderful products from my
37:31
perspective. What they don't realize is that
37:33
they've been doing the R&D for us.
37:35
That's are indeed Department, Google and apple.
37:39
They're doing all the research, they're iterating.
37:41
All the services to teach us. Is the open source Community,
37:45
how to do it, right? And the tide is turning the open
37:50
source software services and applications are learning from
37:54
there. You know, again R&D Department,
37:57
predecessors and making better and better software.
38:01
And so the perceived benefit of these two things are going to
38:05
gradually, get closer and closer and closer.
38:08
So what you have is two complementary Trends as As we
38:13
perceive it and we have, you know, we do our outlook for the
38:17
coming decade, you have centralized,
38:21
software-as-a-service Cloud applications are going to have
38:25
this rising cost and more importantly perception of cost.
38:30
Like, not only are people going to be paying with their data and
38:33
you know, privacy but they're also going to be paying with
38:36
their wallets. So the cost is rising.
38:38
The perceived benefit is at best going to stay flat.
38:42
Maybe go up a little A little bit.
38:44
But on the other side of the equation when it comes to
38:46
self-hosted open source software, the perceived cost is
38:49
going to go down and down and down as we and others, make it
38:54
dramatically easier to use and build better and better user
38:59
interfaces, and user experiences around the software.
39:03
The perceived cost of getting up and running is going to go down.
39:06
It is inherently free for life, right?
39:09
It is inherently free and open source software so you don't pay
39:12
for It at most, you're paying an upfront Capital cost for the
39:15
computer itself, right? You need you need Hardware, you
39:18
got to run it on something but that's a one-time fee.
39:21
Maybe you get a new device every five to ten years but those, you
39:26
know, savings are immediately apparent like that.
39:28
Cop, that Capital expense will pay itself off in a matter of
39:31
months, according to our prayers, how we view Rising
39:35
costs. So our primary focus on a daily
39:39
basis is to make the convenience better and better and better,
39:45
right? We call it convenience parity,
39:48
if software has a circle up here, we're down here, and we're
39:52
going to go like this. We're just going to get closer
39:54
and closer, and closer to the convenience that people are used
39:59
to. I don't think we can ever reach
40:01
it. I think that it's an asymptotic
40:03
approach. We will never be as convenient
40:06
as the centralized third-party model because that third party
40:12
centralized model. Liz hair inherently built on the
40:15
concept of will do it for you. You don't do anything, we'll
40:18
just do it for you. Whereas, the core principle of
40:22
our model is, you'll do it yourself and you'll own it,
40:25
right? You'll be very, you'll have
40:27
total control. And while we can make the latter
40:30
feel increasingly, like the former, it's always going to be
40:34
easier to have somebody do something for you then for you
40:37
to do it yourself. But we think we can get close
40:41
enough that the Gap inconvenience will be negligible
40:47
to the massive discrepancy in cost.
40:51
As in womb, is free and easy and there's no privacy, invasions no
40:58
chance of censorship, it's totally Sovereign, you're free.
41:02
That's like a huge benefit whereas there's will be the
41:07
surveilled Censored High fees monthly subscription.
41:11
Like we're going to blow them out of the water on the cost
41:14
side even if we can't quite get there on the convenience side
41:18
and that's fascinating. And I really I really like how
41:23
you because it's true, right? And I honestly Matt I would
41:28
rather pay up front, then B, the B, the product weight, you know,
41:35
the oh, nothing and be happy. Hahaha is Nico want to own
41:42
nothing to be happy brother. I battled that stuff every
41:45
single day I want to be just as free as you but dude, first of
41:52
all, fascinating analysis and just breaking it down.
41:56
So another interesting point, Matt and I think that there's
42:01
two Utopias that people on different ideological basis.
42:06
They look at the world, right? You have the collectivist Utopia
42:10
and believe it or not. And I see this all the time and
42:13
bitcoiners you have the libertarian Utopia, right?
42:16
And that's something that we all have to understand that it's
42:19
very real and one of the things, right?
42:23
Let's say in the ideal World, everyone is running their
42:27
servers Amazon web servers, like man.
42:30
It becomes a museum where you walk in there and it's like this
42:33
is how the internet used to work, right?
42:36
But at the end of the day, Right in front of one, who doesn't
42:40
know, the vast majority of the internet is connected by cables.
42:43
Undersea cables, right? And those can be potential
42:47
vulnerable points of capture for governments.
42:51
How does that fix that? How does a peer-to-peer
42:54
internet? You know what?
42:57
We're all dreaming. What we what we hope to find
42:59
ourselves in the future and how does the actual, how do you guys
43:04
actually mitigate the actual physical cables?
43:07
That the Net is connected by are connected with.
43:11
Yeah, you're talking about the long, the long game here.
43:15
The end game, right? The final boss of everything, is
43:19
surprisingly, the physical world when we first started start9, I
43:24
told my co-founders at the time that if we succeeded wildly
43:30
that, if we really succeeded in bringing a new Computing,
43:34
Paradigm to this world and it grew that over time.
43:40
The only way that it would survive is if we vertically
43:43
integrated all the way to the mine, mining lithium, right,
43:48
like that, we will eventually get shut down there.
43:54
Point every single step of the way, right?
43:56
Like if we get so successful and we're really a threat, they'll
44:02
shut the Mind down. They'll withhold critical, you
44:07
know, rare earth metals from our or anybody else's ability to
44:10
build chips that aren't backdoored.
44:13
And so, we don't need to worry about that right now though,
44:15
right? They threat.
44:18
It's a tomorrow threat. Yes, we need to stay one step
44:21
ahead. We need to be aware that these
44:23
threats are coming. But you don't solve tomorrow's
44:25
problems today. That's how you die.
44:28
You have just all today's problems today.
44:31
And quite frankly to be very focused as a team, otherwise
44:35
you, you get ahead of yourself. So the the fiber optic cables
44:40
are a few steps away. We're not, we're not worried
44:43
about those right now because we can effectively hijack them.
44:47
Right? For antithetical purposes.
44:50
I shouldn't say antithetical. They are designed to process
44:52
information and we will continue to use Them for what they were
44:54
designed for, but we can make that information encrypted,
44:57
right? Encryption is the secret weapon
44:59
here. So long as the encryption is
45:02
real, which we have every reason to believe that it is and there
45:05
isn't some crazy project that's been going on, where sha-256 is
45:10
actually broken and the government's just not telling
45:13
us. I don't believe that I'm not
45:15
leave that either. They don't have the capability.
45:17
So as long as encryption is real, we can hijack.
45:22
Significant portions of the Assisting physical and digital
45:25
infrastructures of this planet for our own to build our own
45:31
parallel digital systems and so long as using encryption and
45:40
certain networking strategies such as tour is not itself
45:44
incriminating then we will succeed, right?
45:47
The danger here is if a government comes in and says
45:51
something like, Tor is illegal okay.
45:56
Or if we detect that you are utilizing networking protocol, a
46:02
say, Noster, for instance, which is very is of great interest to
46:05
us at the moment. And there is certain Network
46:09
traffic analytics that you can perform that the ISP could
46:13
perform. They don't know what you're
46:16
doing, they don't know what you're saying.
46:19
Because again, encryption works right, but they can conclude
46:23
that guy's using Tor, right? When you use an embassy in your
46:27
home today, your ISP knows that you are using Tor.
46:32
They don't know what you're using it for, they can't even
46:35
see what website. You're accessing.
46:37
Meaning it's your own website and your Embassy, they don't
46:39
know what that is. They can't interpret any of the
46:41
information that's being passed over.
46:43
But they can say You're using Tor.
46:46
So the problem comes in is if a government just says, using Tor
46:49
is illegal, then we have a problem on our hands, not a
46:54
problem, not an insurmountable problem, but it is a definite
46:58
attack vector. And so we don't think they're
47:02
going to do it. We don't think that governments
47:06
or big Tech corporations who have an interest in protecting
47:10
their monopolies Etc. We do not believe that they will
47:14
opt for the nuclear option and in this case, the nuclear option
47:17
is wholesale, Banning the movement of in Formation, that
47:22
is either encrypted or being processed on a given Network
47:27
because if they did that, it would require a such a blatant
47:31
violation of Human Rights, the United States Constitution.
47:36
And basically, every Western democracy there is that they
47:39
just won't get away with it. We hope, right?
47:42
As we've seen, the population has a tendency to kind of go
47:45
along with things and I've been largely disappointed over the
47:48
Latin to see some of this but there are Lines and I ultimately
47:53
do have confidence at least in the American ethos and history
47:59
and tradition of individual rights and freedom that there
48:02
are lions and people are willing to stand on them and protect
48:07
them. And so I don't think things like
48:11
encryption could ever be banned. I think that politicians could
48:15
posture. I think they could even try to
48:17
pass bills, that make certain kinds of things, illegal or
48:19
legal, but ultimately, they're not competent enough.
48:22
They don't have, they don't have the numbers.
48:25
They're going to, they're going to lose that battle.
48:26
So I think that we can hijack utilize.
48:30
Use Earp much, if not all of the existing physical and digital
48:34
infrastructure that they have spent building in order to
48:37
Monitor surveil and control everyone for exactly the
48:40
opposite. Beautiful.
48:42
And and you the part that was fascinating to me.
48:47
Matt. And this part of the encryption
48:49
Wars and I think that we are heading towards encryption War
48:53
2.0, right in the 90s was, you know, certain types of
48:56
encryption was illegal, then people who are t-shirts with
48:58
that exact thing and then, you know, they couldn't win that and
49:01
then it's a First Amendment issue, right?
49:03
And I think we're heading into the second where, you know, for
49:06
the first time in American history, the US Treasury
49:10
specifically, the office of foreign An asset control,
49:13
sanctioned open source software. And I, the reason that I believe
49:17
they did, that is to attempt to set a precedent because Bitcoin
49:23
whether you like it or not, is a threat to current u.s.
49:25
sanctioned policy which gives the tremendous amount of power
49:28
to the US government because they've been weaponizing the
49:30
dollar to get what they want or to believe, they're getting what
49:34
they want because you can't make it a.
49:35
You can't make a good faith argument that sanctions are
49:38
effective either. So yeah, I definitely We think
49:42
that we are heading into the so called crypto Wars 2.0.
49:46
And I think that can be a point of contention.
49:49
But what's fascinating to me, Matt is holy crap, did the
49:54
founding fathers of the United States 200, something years ago,
50:00
just because of how much they hated tight tyranny or tyranny.
50:05
Did they nail that? And they made it the first one,
50:09
and it might might become one of our most powerful tools in the
50:16
battle of the step of separation of money and state.
50:20
How do you believe we're going in this adoption race on simply
50:25
Bitcoin were in the media front. So we reflect.
50:27
We fundamentally believe here is a war for hearts and Minds.
50:30
We need to get as many people as possible, taking Bitcoin into
50:34
self custody taking that orange pill.
50:36
If enough people do that we win, right?
50:39
But it is an arms race. How do you believe you're doing
50:43
on your side? And I want to preface that
50:47
question with. I was also extremely
50:49
disappointed, how effective the, their propaganda machine was at
50:57
capturing the hearts and minds of so many individuals and
51:02
basically leading them like sheets sheeps to a Slaughter.
51:05
Unfortunately, it would it, I couldn't believe it.
51:08
So, what are your thoughts on that?
51:11
Well, you definitely nailed the sort of other side of the coin
51:14
about what I was saying earlier, which is that, you know what we
51:18
don't do, except for appearances.
51:20
Like this obviously is the awareness and education aspect
51:24
of what's going on, right? So perception of cost,
51:28
perception of benefit is all very largely affected, not just
51:32
buy the products and technologies that are being
51:34
used, but by people's understanding of them.
51:37
And so, that is why I go out of my way to support.
51:40
And try to, you know, do anything that we can to help you
51:44
and others in your battle to educate and raise awareness
51:49
towards not only the nature of the problem, but of the nature,
51:54
and existence of viable, albeit nascent, but viable growing
51:59
solutions to these problems. So, you know, I commend you, I
52:03
support you and, you know, it's just not what we do.
52:07
We're technologists and product people and that's our At all.
52:11
But yeah. But it's the same.
52:13
It's the same War my friend. Yo, you might be on one front
52:16
and we're in the trenches on the other front but we're still the
52:18
same fight. Exactly.
52:20
Right. But you specialization it
52:22
matters, right? We have to focus on our core
52:24
competency and what we're best at and you're going to focus on
52:27
your core competency, what you're best at and we joined the
52:30
show together right now to strategize and you know, divide
52:34
and conquer. So okay, so with that in mind,
52:39
the core of your Question there was, you know, are people going
52:43
to to do it? How do you see?
52:46
So I'm seeing it from again, the media perspective.
52:50
So for example, the FTX blow-up was amazing because I'm sorry
52:55
for anyone who got involved. You should have taken Bitcoin,
52:57
not your keys, not your Bitcoin, right?
52:59
We've been screaming that from the rooftop from literally three
53:02
years now but that's LED people to take Bitcoin off-exchange.
53:08
Do you see the same? In rate with individuals
53:12
realizing you know if I'm not using my if I'm not using my own
53:16
node I'm basically trusting someone else's.
53:19
No. Do you see that popularity
53:22
Rising? Yeah, so the very existence of
53:27
start9 and other node and personal server projects in the
53:35
greater Bitcoin and Sovereign Computing space is a degree of
53:39
evidence. Dense that there is demand for
53:42
this. These organizations companies
53:46
are not doing this because nobody cares and we're not doing
53:51
it in light of the fact that interest is waning, it's not
53:56
people do care interest is growing and our community.
54:01
The people who discover us and take the time to actually look
54:07
you know they it's like Bitcoin you have to Actually look, it
54:11
takes a little bit of effort, and we're trying to minimize the
54:14
amount of effort, but people who have discovered us and actually
54:18
looked become what's the right word, obsessive, they're they're
54:24
passionate. Okay, are we don't have
54:26
customers, we have Partners, we have members of the movement and
54:32
that isn't something that we like go out and try to GARP, you
54:35
know, Raul with marketing, it's just the nature of what we're
54:38
doing. What we're doing is Italy,
54:41
radical, powerful, Freedom, breathing Sovereign, technology.
54:47
And we mean it, and we're not cutting Corners.
54:50
We're doing it, right? Even if doing it, right,
54:53
ultimately results in our failure as a business.
54:57
As long as we are capable. As long as we survive long
55:01
enough and are successful enough to Shepard this technology, to
55:05
its mature state, where it can function as a viable, off-ramp,
55:09
and You know, means of opting out of the centralized
55:13
surveillance State, and of the extortionary practices of big
55:17
Tech, then we will have succeeded in my mind.
55:22
I don't want to die. I would like to succeed wildly.
55:24
I'd like to make a bunch of money for myself, and my family,
55:27
and our future. But that isn't the primary
55:30
objective. The primary objective is to
55:32
Usher the technology to maturity.
55:35
And so, how do how do we think it's going?
55:39
I think we're doing great. Great.
55:40
I think that we are doing a good job.
55:42
I think others are doing a good job.
55:43
I definitely think that we are leading the charge in this push
55:46
towards generalized, Sovereign, technology of which Bitcoin is
55:50
sort of the bleeding heart and centerpiece and you know spear
55:54
tip of the entire movement but it is broader than Bitcoin.
55:57
It is about all of Information Technology.
56:00
It's about decentralizing Earth information grids and bringing
56:03
power back to the edges of the network as opposed to the hubs
56:06
of the network and we are quite frankly, very It on a daily
56:11
basis as our community but we absolutely don't take it for
56:15
granted. I personally do not believe in
56:17
historical determinism, I believe that it is perfectly
56:21
possible that we and others and Bitcoin will fail and Usher in
56:29
perhaps, one of the darkest most prolonged ages of tyranny and
56:34
oppression that the world has ever seen.
56:36
I also think it's perfectly possible that we will trounce
56:40
them. And beat them down like the
56:42
little children that they are. And when this thing in a matter
56:45
of ten years, I think those are the two opposing extremes I
56:49
think, in reality, this is probably a two to three
56:53
generation battle. Simply for the fact that anybody
56:57
over the age of X I'm not going to offend anyone but the older
57:01
the generation is the more unlikely.
57:04
They are two totally learn something.
57:06
Brand-new and pivot their entire worldview and adopt brand new
57:10
Ecology, it's just not feasible. That ultimately to win a war of
57:15
any historic consequence. You need children and you need
57:19
their children and you need their children.
57:21
You need to new generations of children to completely change
57:26
the culture of a society. Lennon actually was one of the
57:30
more famous people to have said, I believe, don't quote me on the
57:34
exact wording here, but something like you give me two
57:37
generations of children and I will give you a None of
57:40
Communists. And we can say something
57:43
similar, which is you give us two generations of children and
57:46
will give you a world of sovereign individuals.
57:50
And so, it's a long game, a lot of bitcoiners are I think overly
57:55
optimistic about, you know, how, how quickly we might reach
58:03
Providence. I think it's going to take a few
58:05
generations, and I hope to be alive when we get there.
58:10
But educating children on both the nature of the problem and on
58:17
the growingly powerful Solutions is the key to winning.
58:24
Absolutely. And you know, it's crazy because
58:28
we're working in different, we're working obviously work in
58:31
the same industry but we're working in different sectors of
58:34
these industry and the militant nusenda.
58:39
The urgency is the same. Mmmmm, I say this every single
58:42
day or almost every say it's a good morning Bitcoin or slavery.
58:45
A lot of people like you're being hyperbolic.
58:48
No, I'm not, right? You they're telling you exactly
58:51
what they want to do. With Central Bank, digital
58:53
currencies and Jack Mahler. Said, it said it best and you
58:58
said it perfectly. We're willing to do that.
59:01
Like we're willing to die on this hill because we understand
59:06
what's at stake and I completely agree with you.
59:10
A last question, Matt we see this all the time, right?
59:14
Whether it's simply Bitcoin, whether it's start9, whether you
59:17
know, the other militant bitcoiners, you know, bull
59:21
Bitcoin Francis, right? We all have this.
59:25
There you go. We all have this.
59:28
We all have this, I guess. We all kind of reached the same
59:33
conclusion and we're all looking at it from a perspective of
59:38
look, if we don't win this. They're going to win and the
59:42
life that they want for us is just so atrocious.
59:46
Why is it that we all come to this?
59:49
Why does Bitcoin does do this to people on a psychological level?
59:54
Is it the freedom is it the freedom that they've never
59:57
tasted before and all of a sudden when they have the
1:00:01
ability to save and earn and money that a nation state, a
1:00:06
country, a dictator and Emperor can't censor or D.
1:00:10
A base. Is that what?
1:00:12
Just just snaps in people's minds and then, they appreciate
1:00:16
this newfound Freedom. What do you think that what do
1:00:19
you think that is? Because the reason I'm asking
1:00:21
this question is, because you said all of that, and it's
1:00:24
fascinating to me. I know opt he's listening to in
1:00:26
the background and we are, literally, I'm we think the same
1:00:30
exact way. We're just fighting on a
1:00:32
different front. Why do you think Bitcoin does
1:00:35
that to people Bitcoin? Proved it Possible.
1:00:42
I know that personally in my mid-20s, I guess I'll date
1:00:48
myself. It was about 12 years ago.
1:00:51
I was fairly depressed. Not for personal reasons.
1:00:55
I have always been keenly interested in history, and
1:01:00
politics and economics, and I didn't see a way.
1:01:06
I didn't understand how you could defeat.
1:01:10
Such a horrible Beast that has become the for lack of a better
1:01:18
term. Just our society, our world.
1:01:20
And I don't really see a way out.
1:01:23
The darkest point was Ron Paul 2012 where I saw hope in a
1:01:30
candidate who seem to understand the game was absolutely correct
1:01:37
about everything and had a passion.
1:01:40
In it base of young intellectual people and I was like that is
1:01:49
the makings of a revolution that is what we need and watching him
1:01:55
quite frankly. Get flicked off the table like
1:01:58
he was a fly pestering. This monster really hit me deep
1:02:05
I realized how powerful of a foe.
1:02:08
We were up against That somebody as correct.
1:02:13
And someone with that much momentum and support could just
1:02:16
be discarded. I didn't.
1:02:21
I I got depressed and shortly thereafter, read a couple of
1:02:27
different things and found Bitcoin.
1:02:31
Those things were for as big of a douchebag.
1:02:36
As the guy is anti Fragile the seemed to leap.
1:02:41
Sovereign individual. I read mastering Bitcoin and
1:02:47
ultimately just went down the Bitcoin Rabbit.
1:02:49
Hole also a heavy dose of Ian Rand and arrived at the
1:02:54
conclusion that there actually was a way that there was a weak
1:02:58
point in the armor of the enemy and further more and more
1:03:05
importantly that the enemy only derives its power from.
1:03:10
From us, that is itself, impotent and incapable of doing
1:03:16
anything without the support consent and productive energy of
1:03:22
its of the people it wants to dominate.
1:03:27
And so I was like, wow, we're actually fighting against an
1:03:30
impotent blob. That all you have to do is
1:03:34
recognize its nature and opt-out, essentially strike.
1:03:39
Opt-out, don't feed it. It and it'll just die like the
1:03:42
slug it is. And that Bitcoin was the
1:03:45
ultimate means of opting out because the central power of
1:03:50
this monster comes from its ability to create and control
1:03:54
money. And that when you create
1:03:57
Bitcoin, I didn't view Bitcoin as a weapon.
1:04:00
I viewed Bitcoin as an exit ramp a way to get out of the
1:04:05
financial and monetary system. And therefore, starve, the
1:04:09
Beast, right? It can't survive without our
1:04:12
economic contribution then with sovereign individual plus.
1:04:17
My own Acumen is a developer plus surrounding myself with
1:04:20
like-minded people discovered, a way that I could also get into
1:04:24
this fight and give people a way of opting out of the information
1:04:28
grid. So not only can you opt out of
1:04:30
money but you can opt out of data, you can take back your
1:04:34
data from the grid. And I realized that the monster
1:04:37
was Diving as much on its ability to create and control
1:04:41
money, as it was on its ability to surveil and control
1:04:44
information. Bingo, bingo.
1:04:51
Is Bitcoin John Galt. Satoshi.
1:04:55
Maybe yeah. I mean it's definitely dick
1:04:57
going. Yeah, I mean, what did John John
1:05:02
Galt convinced the most productive intelligent, you
1:05:05
know, leaders and people who move the world to opt out to
1:05:10
stop giving their productive energy to the vet to their
1:05:13
destroyers? And I think that's what Bitcoin
1:05:16
is doing. Is it is it is discovering or
1:05:20
allowing itself to be discovered by the best of us.
1:05:23
And so, Only but surely we are removing ourselves from that
1:05:26
system. Start9, for example, has a goal
1:05:31
of being on a complete Bitcoin standard by the end of 2020 3,
1:05:35
we will not participate in the Fiat Financial system.
1:05:38
If somebody wants to buy a device from us and they have
1:05:40
dollars, they will have to figure out a way to convert
1:05:43
those dollars to bitcoin just in time to pay us in Bitcoin.
1:05:47
If someone wants to be paid by us and they want dollars, they
1:05:51
will have to figure out a way to convert the Bitcoin that we're
1:05:53
going to pay. I'm with installers and we are
1:05:56
doing this appropriately and you know, strategically we're not
1:06:00
going to do it overnight because it would basically mean the
1:06:03
destruction of our business but gradually, we will move away
1:06:06
from the dollar and all of their Fiat standards and currencies
1:06:10
beautiful, man, I enjoyed that conversation.
1:06:14
The coin insulates capitalism and individuals from I don't
1:06:19
want to use opt, he's words, but what is it?
1:06:23
I like, I call them the monetary demons Opti calls them, the
1:06:26
high-level parasites. Yeah.
1:06:28
And it protects protects individuals.
1:06:31
The likes of, which has never been seen before, Matt Hill.
1:06:34
That was quite a ride. I really enjoyed that.
1:06:38
Why don't you tell everybody where they can find you?
1:06:40
And of course what you're working on?
1:06:44
I'm on Twitter at underscore Matt, Hill underscore start9 is
1:06:51
start. Nine.com Follow those two tracks
1:06:56
and you'll get a good picture of what we do and who we are and
1:06:58
why we're doing it. Now, what products we have
1:07:00
available and we have a telegram chat, which I don't know off the
1:07:05
top of my head, I think it's TDOT me to start 9 underscore
1:07:07
Labs, don't quote me on that. We're that's the sort of
1:07:11
community Hub unfortunately. Out of all three of those things
1:07:14
that I just said, two of them are hosted centralized Services.
1:07:20
We're working on it. We're working on it soon as the
1:07:23
chain. Change.
1:07:24
And I'm sure that you guys will figure it out.
1:07:27
Anyways guys, those another episode of Simply Bitcoin IRL
1:07:30
and I'm going to put you back stage for a second.
1:07:32
We will see you tomorrow back at the live show 12:15 p.m.
1:07:35
Eastern Standard Time. Love you all.
1:07:38
We'll catch you tomorrow. See you later.