Latest / Curious Cat - where science & supernatural collide / Cult Mindsets in the Age of AI with Natalie Fehlner

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Cult Mindsets in the Age of AI with Natalie Fehlner · Curious Cat - where science & supernatural collide

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Fucking clankers.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Fucking clankers.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Fucking clankers.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: We got Natalie here with us.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: Hi everyone.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: Hi Natalie.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: We're so excited to have you here.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for having me.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: I'm excited to be here for sure.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Natalie, you may not know this, but uh you and I both come from a theater background.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me about yours.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you might you you you may not know since we just kind of met each other online, you know.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was in a uh a very lauded um version of the music man in high school.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: So uh yeah, so uh that that was big talk, you know, back in the day.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: But um wait, what did you play?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_05: Wait, stop, pause.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_05: The people want to know what who were you?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I was uh Marcellus, the uh sidekick.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that was that's a big role.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: The buddy hackett role.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I got to sing shapoopy, so absolutely that's awesome.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: I was in your ship poopy, that's about all I remember of it at this point.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: That's great, yeah.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: It is it is big talk back in the day.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like if you were a lead in the musical in high school, that's a big deal.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: It was uh it was a big, you know.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: I I I mean, I resisted, but they sort of pulled me into it, you know.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_05: So but being the funny role kind of it did make you a chick magnet, did it?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_05: Because like us, you know, chickadees back in the day, we we thought you were funny, but I'm sure we were like, But did we want to date you?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_05: You know what I'm saying?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, everybody thought it wasn't dork.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's yeah, it didn't do it.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, we're a good club, man.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_05: It did, it did nothing, but um, but you know, getting it back to Natalie, yeah.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go back to let's talk about Natalie's theater stuff.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_05: I have been diving deep in your podcast, Tales from the Truth Seekers.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_05: It is resonating with me.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_05: I think that, first of all, you make beautiful art on your website, and we'll have links to it all um in the show notes, but you also are an amazing, intuitive interviewer.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_05: You bring out stories in people, you make people feel comfortable and safe to tell their stories, and then you patiently sit back and give them the space and the oxygen to let it come forward.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_05: And you are not afraid to have like all different viewpoints coming into the sphere.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_05: You're not gatekeeping anybody.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_05: And it, I just find your podcast so refreshing.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_05: And my longtime listeners, listeners are going, I can't say listeners, but my longtime listeners are going to so love your podcast and love, they're gonna fall in love with you.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_05: So get ready for the Lovins fan group from Curious Cat.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for saying that.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: I that's really nice to hear because I really just sort of dove into podcasting and I didn't know what I was doing.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'm really glad that that's how it comes across.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because that is that's what that was my goal, kind of what you just described.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: So awesome.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it was uh uh I listened to uh your your uh your episode about your um your spiritual awakening, uh your story, you know, and uh I found a lot of kind of parallels, I think, between uh me and Jen and a lot of people about sort of uh what struck me about it when you were when you were talking about it was how you just were like, okay, I'm just gonna meditate and like see what happens, you know.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then um you were sort of uh uh uh I guess uh violently thrust into being in the present.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it is I mean, that's what I got out of it in the world.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: I did too.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: You were talking about, but you know, you were suddenly like uh just like you, you you existed in the in like completely in the present and were noticing just all these things that we don't notice or think about on a day-to-day because our heads either in the past or in the future, but you were suddenly just like very just present, you know.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's I mean, there's not a better word.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like it does that sound accurate to what you felt?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and it's so cathartic, it's healing for people to listen to it and then and understand it and and speak it back to me.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that is what happened.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: And you read about this, you know, and mindfulness and meditation and Buddhism, and it's all about the present moment and all and all that.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's true, but then when you actually experience it, it's like, whoa, like everything comes alive.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um and there's a there's a peace that's indescribable.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I was actually just thinking about it last night.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think about this experience almost every day for the 11 years, you know what I mean?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because it was that big of a deal.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but it was the void being filled from the inside, not the outside, completely and totally.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: So if there's nothing on the outside that you need, there's nothing that has to fill the void from the external, and it's all coming from the internal, um it's just this indescribable love and peace for everything in existence.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't, uh yeah, I got I got a little glimpse of that.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: I feel very lucky, and it was sort of this catapult because I I was a total, you know, cynical, arrogant agnostic.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: And then I was like, hmm, I'll try meditation, and then I like died and came back to life.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_05: So it's it was pretty intense, yeah.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_05: And I loved I what I really loved about your journey also is first of all, how many people has Eckhart Tole brought to the light, right?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_05: And helped to, you know, he really, and then you said, I've got to walk the walk, and I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm gonna go ahead and meditate.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_05: And then afterward, realizing I'm part of everything, everything is a part of me.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_05: It's in within me.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_05: And but then on top of it, and this is the part I think that I find the most resonant right now, is there's no judgment of other people that are on their journeys too.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_05: There's no like layer of judgment of like, oh, this I feel sorry for them.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_05: They just don't know.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_05: It's like they're on their journey, and I respect that as well, because you're not going to hurry up or change their trajectory.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_05: They're on their own timeline, and you so respect that.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_05: And that just resonates with me because in this time, you want to shout it from the rooftops when you have that kind of hit from the universe, and the it's a compulsion, and then you have to stop it because I feel like that's the worst of the woo right now is there's one way to get there, and here's the words that you use, and you're not um, you know, you can't come into the club because you don't check all these other boxes, and you just nope, that doesn't exist for you.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's so awesome.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, thank you for pointing that out.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I I've this state of consciousness that I had I was so lucky to experience for just 48 hours, it is such a it's a reference point.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: And when and so I'd love to touch on this like non-judgment that you're bringing up because when I was in that state, like you're still discerning, right?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: You're you're really like you're a very high version of yourself, but the judgment of others felt so childish and silly, like just imagining myself judging other people made me laugh.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like I was like, this is so weird.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: And um, it was just like so much love for every being to exist, no matter if they were lost or grumpy or mean or I mean it's a sound this sounds like I'm like out of touch with reality because there are equal people in the world, but it just love that everything existed, love that people existed, and then their their um a lot of oh, all that stuff.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, all that stuff you mentioned about like checking the boxes and you have to do it this way.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: It was so funny to me.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: All the um concepts around religion, around spirituality, uh spiritual identity was an oxymoron.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: It didn't make any sense.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: It made me laugh.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, all the religion stuff, all the spiritual stuff, all these words, concepts, ideas, it wasn't it.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_03: It was funny.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: It was like, what are you doing, guys?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: Just exist.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_05: Like, yes, dude, you know, you were and again, my I feel like my third eye is throbbing right now because it resonates with something that happened to me yesterday that I kind of forgot happened.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_05: So I was on a hike, it's a nice day in Denver.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_05: I went on a hike and I they actually extended the trail that I love to do, and you can go for miles and miles now.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_05: And what they did is they added a part to the trail so that it actually comes close to the a memorial.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_05: And it's a memorial for a young woman that I knew where she had passed away.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_05: She was a young teenager who was wearing um a Chicago Bulls uh sweatshirt.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_05: This is decades ago, and she was sitting at a bus stop and a gang member picked her up, and awful things happened to her, and she passed away and they discarded her body there, and she wasn't even dead.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_05: So, a year ago, almost exactly, I was hiking in this a similar area, but I couldn't get up there yet, and I didn't know about her at all.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_05: I came home and she was with me, like she had hitchhiked her way with me.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_05: And I was, I had to go outside.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_05: Um, my friend Monique Pliakis, who is an amazing, she's a Reiki person, she's a hip hypnotherapist, but she lives across the country.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_05: And she texted me and she goes, Jen, what's going on?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_05: I was almost killed by a bird uh flew at my my car.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_05: And I said, I think something followed me home, and I think it has to do with the hike I was on.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_05: So I did a smidgen of research with Monique, and we found this uh young woman's name.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_05: Her name is Brandy.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_05: And she goes, Well, no wonder, because I keep pulling cards and it's like, I just need a mother figure.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_05: And you both are such mother figures, just send me love.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_05: I can't cross over.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, so I know this is called right.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_05: And so we had to, and she was doing it in such a in our faces kind of way, like a and Monique knew it had something to do with me because we call each other crow sisters, um, because crows have always come to us and they're we're really connected through crows.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_05: So she said, I knew it had something to do with you.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_05: And I said, Well, I just did this hike and something was attacking my throat and my gut.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_05: And um, I knew that it was something that was making me cry and I had to go outside.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_05: It was trying to get my dog to have a seizure, it was very powerful energy.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_05: So we dug through, we sent her love, said she could go off to the beyond, and we tried to cross her over.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_05: And it's crazy because in the next few weeks we felt her residual energy, but she was definitely leaving, right?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_05: But then the next thing that happened is I got, you know, just you know, it was flu season, so I got sick and my husband was out of town, and I had in the dead of night this bang, bang, bang, bang on my front door.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_05: And I know enough about spirituality, I'm like, I'm not gonna just open up the door and let whatever it is in.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_05: But I looked out the window, my cat's up my feet, and I saw the ghost of this man.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_05: And I don't see things visually like that, I just feel them.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_05: And he had his hands in his pockets and he was like, I know I was one of her murderers, but can you help me cross over?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_05: And I said, you know what, boundaries and I'm really sick, but put a marker on that and just wait for me and I will cross you over.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but it's gonna, it's not right now.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_05: So fast forward a month, I get better from this illness, and I went, oh my God, I've left him on my front porch for a month.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_05: So it's the dead of night, and I stood out on my porch and I did um sage, I did Palo Santo, and I and I just was apologizing to the wind.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_05: I I said, I'm so sorry I kept you waiting for a month.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_05: I heard from my guides, what is time?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_05: And I said, You um, if I can help you to cross over, here I am and let's do this thing.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_05: And there was this like swirl of wind, and then it was just peaceful.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_05: So now how it relates to yesterday, I'm on this trail.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_05: I didn't know that they had um made the trail so that it goes past Brandy's memorial.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_05: It goes right next to it on the creek where they threw her body, where she was still alive, but they didn't know.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_05: And then she died.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_05: And um, I asked her, I said, How are you doing now?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_05: How are you doing?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_05: And I threw my stone because you had to, you couldn't go over the guardrail to get to it.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_05: And here comes this giant golden eagle that just swoops over my head and it just swoops off into the distance.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_05: And I knew something about her murderer also crossing over and letting it go helped her to be free of what that story was on this plane.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_05: And so when you were saying about there can't be judgment, but there seems like there's so much judgment in the spiritual realm, like there are probably people that are like, we're death doulas or we're psychopumps, and you're not supposed to cross over souls that killed somebody, right?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and I um why wouldn't you?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: I have to, yeah, I have to think it's really great.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's beautiful that you did that.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and I think we need more of that, right?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_05: Where we're cross, we're not excusing what people do, but we're saying we're all on a journey, and some of us are really epic failing bigger than others, you know.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_05: I've got my own bag of things that I've done wrong in my life and I will do wrong.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_05: But it's like that judgment doesn't do anything to help people at all.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's just an ego inflation, it's just like, look how much better I am than this other person.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, yeah, maybe we should grow up a little bit.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: I really like this.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: You you you use that term a lot, I heard, in your when on your pod, the ego inflation.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I I really feel like that's that's that's that's accurate.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of things uh I think that are that that can be connected with this that are that are sort of performative.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And uh like you're only doing it, like you say, to you you you need that that dopamine hit, that ego boost, you know.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it it it's not helping it, it's not even helping you, you know what I mean.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: The the person that's doing it, you know, it it's detrimental to everyone involved.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: It is, yeah.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: That I feel like that the ego wants to be unhappy.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_03: It it wants it like there's a part of us, this is helpful to me.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, there's a part of us when I remind, if I really get into my, I don't know, judgment ego, I'll remind myself, like, why is my brain continuing to run this narrative even when after the person's left, even after this is done, you know, it's because part of you wants to be upset.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_03: The the ego wants to suffer, you know what I mean?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: And then that humbles me a little bit.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, oh yeah, I need to, I need to relax.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, and I also want to point out though that we do need to have egos because there's uh we're humans, you know.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: There's also the other extreme of people that are like, kill the ego, kill the ego.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_05: And it's like, no, that that's what's kept us alive all this time.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_05: It's just, I can't remember if it was Eckhart Tolle, who or who, if it was, I feel like it was Rom Das.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_05: And Rom Doss was like, Um, ego, you get to sit in the backseat.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_05: You're still in the car, but you get to sit in the backseat.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_05: Because you're the kid.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you're the seat belted.
• 16:37
  unknown: Yeah.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_04: Stick a lollipop in your mouth, kid.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when you really think about it, yeah, that's right.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's that that's pretty accurate.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but you're the kid that sits in the back, you're not in the driver's seat, but still there.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_05: That's the other thing I I I wanted to say to you, Natalie, is that another thing that is, I guess we Jesse and I so resonate with you so naturally is because we're trying to come to things that seem scary, or a lot of like the people that have been longtime listeners of my show, are like, I can't touch anything AI or tech because it scares me.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_05: And so we're coming to it with like just humor and being human beings and going, it scares us too, but we're diving in.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_05: Well, your whole approach, even at the very beginning, when you tell your story, part one and part two, and you're like, I'm just laughing.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_05: I'm like hearing all these terms for spirituality.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_05: I'm just laughing.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_05: And then I'm seeing this, or I'm seeing the person at the coffee shop, and they're just like tangled up in their stuff.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm just, I can't help but laugh, or I'm I'm using mascara on my eyes.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_05: I'm going, what?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_05: This is ridiculous.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_05: I'm laughing.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_05: So your humor and your approach to it, it it that it adds this playfulness to it and it adds not this like pearl clutching, I must evolve, I must wake up.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_05: It lets go of it and it's an easy grip that you've got on all the things.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_05: You're kind of a human bridge in a sense.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, well, thank you so much for saying that.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I didn't realize that you'd listen to my story.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_03: So this is really nice to hear.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um, to because I I think I mentioned before on my podcast, like there's a long time where I felt like I couldn't even tell it at all.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: So it's um thank you for seeing that.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it in that in that space that I was in.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, you mentioned like the mascara.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: I I like to put on my makeup and it was hilarious.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, why am I painting my face?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's so weird, and like put it away.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: And um yeah, the pearl clutching that you mentioned, it was so it was the antithesis of what it is the antithesis of what people are searching for.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: So it's so paradoxical.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's like, guys, it's already here.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_03: What you want is already here, it's on side, and I know that sounds cliche, but I got a glimpse.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: And it's true.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's um, there's no pushing or forcing, or I've gotta be, you know, that whole energy.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's sort of like, yeah, I and I and our mutual connection, Rachel White talked about humor a lot and how that's a green flag, you know, yeah, you're on the right track.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um well, you're just experiencing things, right?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: You're experiencing things as they come to you instead of trying to uh direct the narrative to one way or the other, and like uh, you know, I I mean, of course, you're gonna be like, oh, like like you were talking about how you like Reiki presented itself to you, right?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't you would you say?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then you were like, Oh, this is a thing that I need to do, you know?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that I need to learn.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know the story of how Reiki came to you, Natalie.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_05: Do you mind sharing it here?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, please, please.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: So after my big experience, my mind was opened.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, oh, maybe other things, if this is real, maybe other things are real.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so I started exploring.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: And um, yeah, I went, I was like, I'll just get a Reiki session to see what it is.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's it's healthy to go in with a skeptical mind, you know, so that you can prove to yourself that things are real.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so I was I went in like thinking it's probably the placebo effect kind of thing.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: But it, I don't know um, if you guys have had like a really intense Reiki, I'm sure you have.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I was amazed.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, this man is healing me with magic hands.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: Why are we why are we not all freaking out that this is a real thing?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: Like this is what they said Jesus did.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I used to laugh and be like, that's impossible.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: You can't heal people with touch.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: And you could feel the energy moving through your body.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: I felt energy moving through my body, very physical sensations of healing.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and his hands were super hot, you know.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: That usually happens.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: And um, so yeah, oh, you might have been um mentioning also my attunement experience because that yeah.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, uh the the the Reiki thing is what I was I I was listening to this morning, but um the attunement, yeah, too.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're interested in that.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we absolutely are 100 because we need to be attuned.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_04: We I was I was literally going my meat suit and my soul needs to be attuned.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: We need some, we need some attunes, we need an attune up.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: A little tune up.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um I just out so yeah, so after I got that the session, I was like, this is incredible.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: I want to be able to do this.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so I didn't know much about it.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: I just thought you went and got certified like any other certification.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I guess anyone out there who's Reiki certified knows that's not the same.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't know that going in.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: And um, yeah, he talked a little bit about the history of Reiki and stuff, but then the main thing is an energy transfer.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like we went into a meditative sort of State and he went around and he placed his hands sort of hovering.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: He didn't touch my head, but went around and hovered his hands over our head.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember when he got to me, I felt him place like a flower crown on my head.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's what it felt like.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um it felt like something like a necklace or something.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: You just put it right on my head.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: Very physical sensation.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: And then when he was done, a few minutes went by and the sensation faded.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I realized he didn't, he didn't put anything on my head.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I was mind-blown.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I asked him about it afterwards.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: He was just casually like, Oh, that was your crown chakra opening up.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: And to me, you know, as someone new to the space, that was incredible.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: I realized like kings wearing crowns and bishops wearing hats and witches wearing hats.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's meaning to all of this, and people, ancient people, experienced these sensations.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: And um, yeah, again, as someone that was very cynical, is another little mini wake awakening explain.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: I had some friends in Austin who uh they they got really into into it, and uh so yeah, I mean I have had that before, and then they all got into Ashiatsu and uh they carried it over into massage and stuff.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever you guys know what I'm talking about?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-uh.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so this so they literally like they they put they put bars up uh hanging from the ceiling, and instead of using their hands to give you massage, they they literally walk on you and like it's insane.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, yeah.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: So they were like, they were like, yeah, we're gonna do this, but like we're gonna channel like it all like through our body, like, you know, go down into your feet, and like uh, you know, wait, so they're they're they're holding onto a bar so that they're whole.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Think about a massage studio, and there's a set of monkey bars that are hanging from the ceiling, and you're literally on the table, and like they're like, and they're like uh they're pressing their foot like right into you, you know what I mean?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And like they're shooting the energy like straight down into your conduits, right?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_05: Of that basically, yeah, right through you.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's like coming through their whole body, like into like whatever, you know, you're like, hey, my shoulders all fucked up, you know what I mean?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is in this was in Austin.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: In Austin, you said, and what's it called again?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Ashiatsu, ashiatsu.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I I don't know, it's uh Japanese, I think.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it's uh it's Japanese, but it's it's it it was wild.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: I was I was like, what wait, what are you doing?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: So did you ever do it?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, 100%.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and how did you feel before?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because I had all kinds of back problems, and they're like they they fixed my spine for sure.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: Whoa, yeah.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_03: So they're not putting their whole weight on you because they're hanging, but they're sort of just like channeling.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: Could you feel the energy going into your absolutely you can?
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: I could, I could, yeah, you know, and I mean, um it was it was like really bizarre, you know.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: But because like because like you think of somebody doing a normal massage, you know, even like with the Swedish thing, the you know, yeah, you can put a lot of pressure on somebody, but imagine somebody that's like able to just like put their whole weight like straight, you know.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you add in that, when you add in that energy component too, you know, because they would like, you know, they do the crit, they lay the crystals out first and the whole, you know, the whole thing.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just like, okay, I'm just gonna run with this.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And like it worked.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_05: It's like a trust exercise, too.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_05: You know what I'm saying?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_05: And so I feel like they automatically it because that's the other thing of the problem I have with spirituality right now, is it's non-consensual.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_05: And so what you were doing in that moment, believe it or not, is you were also consenting to I trust you to have as much weight as you need to have on me to make this adjustment in me or not.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_05: And there's so much about even spiritual training.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_05: If you actually look at it, it's like it's kind of non-consensual.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_05: It's like go to an airport and read people, it's like you don't have their permission, just like you don't have permission to have on like meta glasses and gathering them in your it, you know, in your no, I mean, yeah, good point.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: You you you you don't, you know.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_05: No, and so what you were doing was like a trust exercise.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the dude that hangs out at the new age bookstore and like uh just talks to every girl he sees the crystal and the crystal hang around her neck, you know.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my gosh, you're so right.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's so icky, it's the worst.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Do you remember when like everybody had a new age section in the bookstore, you know, and it was like a big deal back, you know.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_05: You just reminded me, I went to this, um, it was in Seattle, and my my younger daughter, who's a grad student now, um, she and I went to this spiritual kind of metaphysical conference that was in the Seattle area.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_05: And um, we didn't go there, you know, we lived there at the time, and so we just popped over for it.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_05: And there was this booth right front and center.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_05: You'd basically come in the front door, and there was this booth front and center.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_05: And this guy was like, touch my books, touch my books, the you know, that he had the shop.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_05: And Brynn and I both just like bristled and walked around him.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_05: And then we went, I never heard that line before, touch my books, touch my books.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_05: And then it was like, touch my Morganite, touch my Morganite.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_05: It's like, like, really grab this.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_05: And we went past it, we were just like, This is some sticky energy.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_05: So we went past him and went to this woman who she had been at another metaphysical conference, and we were like, This is why we came, is we wanted to have our auras read by her.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_05: So we each were waiting for our turn to have our auras read.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_05: And when it was my turn, I was like, That guy feels like a parasite.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_05: And she goes, He's at every conference, he's definitely adding attachments to people when they touch the Morganite or his books, they will come back to me.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_05: I'll have read their aura and they will come back to me and there'll be, and she'll take aura photography.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_05: She's like, I'm seeing this black streak of you can literally see the cords that he has has connected to them, and I have to cut them again.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_05: And she goes, I have told the leaders of this conference, do not allow him here.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_05: He's parasitic, he's doing this to you know, have cords on people, and they don't hear me.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_05: And you'd think they would in this sphere.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_05: It's not like a vampires, it was a vampire, it was like a vampire thing.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the place that the place that Rachel's gonna be on Saturday.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: I like I've been to that place before, and it's uh it's it's just like a it's a place like you're talking to, it's just like a big crystal like warehouse kind of a setup, you know.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I've been there too.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, well, yeah, I you know what, Natalie, and this is what I need you tell tell Jen, like even Austin.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: Tell Jen how woo Austin is and like how it like how Austin should not exist in Texas if you really think about it.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's the place is almost it's almost like its own pocket dimension that like sits in the yeah, yeah.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's and uh I I saw like a funny video where someone's like, it's the new LA, everyone from LA is moving to Austin, and uh sorry about that, but we're all here now, and like yeah, it is pretty woo.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's definitely a little like microcosm instead of Texas.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um wow, yeah, I wasn't there long.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: I just actually just went to visit Rachel for like a weekend, but we did.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: We went to this the Crystal Emporium and um things like that, and yeah, it's definitely a woo.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_03: Woo! How did you and Rachel find each other as friends?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good question.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, okay.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: I oh my best friend discovered her.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: So my best friend was listening to Nicole Bigley's podcast.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: Rachel went on that.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: So so my best friend Liz found Rachel through that, sort of following Rachel, and then she was like, Natalie, you would love this woman.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: You need to get on her substack, you need to listen to her podcast.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, Yeah, okay.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: And then a few months went by and she was like, No, really, you would love her.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I was like a little, I was a fan, I was like a Rachel White fan.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_03: And um then I followed her and she she um saw one of my little poems I wrote um about oh what was it?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_03: It was about basically everything I've been I've been saying on the podcast is it's all these external things are just tokens, yeah, and you're really searching for something um inside, and she like loved the poem and connected with me and asked me on her podcast.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, Yes, I'm a fan of you.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'd love to be on your podcast.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: It was a big deal.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: It is a weird deal.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we we recorded with her the other day, and and Jen and I were both like, uh how how how did we meet Rachel?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and it's like it seems like I was like, uh, we've known her like forever, three, three, four years, you know what I mean?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: And like it was like a month ago, you know.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_05: I know, and what's crazy is then I'm backfilling it going, how did we get to know her?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_05: Because I have been friends with Willet, Skeptic Metaphysician, for years now.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_05: And like my very first podcast friend who I would recommend you get to know next is my friend Karen Rontowski.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_05: She's a comedian and she has paranormal Karen is her podcast.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_05: Now she's had to really dial that back, and she's only gonna be doing like twice a year now because she's on tour with her um comedy.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_05: She's hilarious.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: I love that she's a comedian, right?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and she also she's the OG person that's like, I'm gonna pull tarot cards during my show.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_05: That's like her big thing, and other people are like taking it, trying to take it from her, but she's she's OG.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: She's like a woo comedian.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's great.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: So she found but but like she's funny and she like knows her stuff too.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and she found my podcast, and I found her like um in early days, like, and I, you know, I was like you, I didn't know what the heck I was doing.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_05: I was actually um an author, and my dad was a storyteller.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_05: He passed away, and I'm like, I need to continue to tell stories, but then all this spiritual stuff was happening to me, so that's how it happened.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_05: So we found each other, we became podcast.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_05: She's like, once you're on my podcast, we're podcast sisters.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_05: So Rachel White, and then then Will found me next.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_05: You know, he and his wife, and I was like, I just love the way you interview.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_05: And he was like, I we were trying to do a television network at that time, and he's like, I want your show on there.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_05: And my guides were like, nope, no show.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_05: That's your that's only your ego, and you don't want those.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_05: Um, it will accidentally be handcuffs on what you're doing, and you don't know where you're going with this yet.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_05: So I was like, I'm just gonna just send you love and always be the biggest supporter, but I can't.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_05: But we remained friends, and then somehow it's like Rachel, it's like this magical thing that happens to appeared out of nowhere, you know?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_05: And she's she's so like, you know, we'll have links to her in the show notes too, because she that's what's so amazing, is like it's not love and light, and that's like Karen Rontowski.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_05: She's like, and that's how I am.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_05: It's like there's dark, there's light, and we can embrace both.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_05: There's dark and light within us, as above, so below, as within, so without.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_05: It's us two.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_05: And let's bring those things into the light and not sequester them in our spiritual basement with duct tape on their mouth, because that's where our superpowers lie.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_05: And so it's been really amazing to connect with all these like really powerful people that are just both things at once, kind of holding.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: We were just we were, I mean, Jen was already doing this with Curious Cat, but the you know, the woo stuff.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: But we were just gonna talk about like AI and like how how how shitty social media is now and the internet, how good it used to be because that's how old we are, Natalie.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: We got pulled into, you know, we get so suddenly we get pulled into all this other stuff, you know.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and uh I I don't know.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: I guess that's what was supposed to happen, you know, like we were just falling where it, you know, we're just yeah, whatever presents itself, but that's what I've always done.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like uh I stumble into things and I go, oh, okay, I guess I'm supposed to be here because it's like I'm here, you know, but I don't know.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I really agree with you about the the light and the dark and like seeking out spiritual people that are grounded.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's really fascinating and frustrating to watch the new age community sort of just become the very thing that it was it was against.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like the new age community was kind of born out of a rejection of this church, like dogmatic church culture that's like puritanical.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: And then what have we done?
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: Created the exact same thing, you know what I mean?
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's very it's just so frustrating and you rebel you rebel against an out group, and then you suddenly, you know, you you create your own in-group, and then suddenly like everybody else is out, you know.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it it's it it's it seems like it's normal.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's culturally, yeah, that's the pattern.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think so.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: I always wonder, like, is it the it's it bothers me because you do you see almost every group that's advocating for something eventually peak and die because they become the very thing that they're against.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's just a pattern over and over.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm wondering, like, can we get past that as a species, or is that always gonna be how it is?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, can we I honestly I don't know?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think about because I have a I have a sociology background too, and I think about that a lot, you know.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Me too.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: And um really frustrated.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't know, you know, because I got into all this, you know, I I did a I specialize in I got a minor in social and I specialize, I worked with a bunch of people who we we were uh mythology and comparative religion, you know, and so that's this has always been my my my thing because I never didn't I always knew there was something going on.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: I just like like you like you were talking about.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: I I didn't, I was like, well, it can't be that that answer's too easy, you know what I mean?
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: And this is just like a this is like a social club kind of a deal, you know what I mean?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: But uh it's gotta be more complicated than this.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: But the last 10 years, I've sort of been like uh, you know, you come out of the pandemic and all that the the other bullshit that went on, and you're just like okay, I'm just gonna chill and be normal now.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like what I figured out was uh like okay, I I I I'm not good at being I don't know how to that means I don't know how to do that.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_05: Me neither, and I love that because okay, I just okay, I had a couple things that I I have to share because they just came forward.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_05: It's comfort.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_05: I think that it's the human pension to have comfort and consistency, right?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_05: And that's what causes people to go, okay, so the comfort, this there has to be structure around this to kind of keep it in place so that I can come back to it and it's the same.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_05: And and that structure ends up being for people rules, and rules makes it seem like who's making the rules, who's enforcing the rules.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that if do you know Natalie Bo Schofield?
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_05: Oh my God, that she is the most badass warrior journalist.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_05: And what she'll do, and she is she vibes it, so she'll be at like a Whole Foods, it'll be right before her birthday, and all of a sudden somebody will say, You need to meet this person.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_05: And then she sits down at a Whole Foods to eat her her lunch, and here comes sitting this person of like, you need to, I don't know who you are, but you need to go to this place and you need to go visit.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I forget her first place that she went to.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_05: Um, it was in Arizona.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_05: So she said, You know what?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_05: The universe just told me what to do on my birthday.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_05: She goes down this path and she starts dipping into this thing that feels so good.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_05: It's a woo community.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_05: And the more she gets into it, she's like, This feels cultish.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_05: And she started like, so she's infiltrated multiple cults accidentally and sometimes on purpose, and she's been outing them.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_05: And so when you see like a documentary about mother of God or this or that, it's like Bo Schofield is a badass.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_05: And on top of it, it's like she is in a very vulnerable population because she's trans.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_05: And so she's like, I am in these spaces that are in the middle of nowhere, and I'm in places where they would kill me just because I choose to use the bathroom that makes me feel comfortable.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_05: So on multiple levels, she's just this badass.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_05: But she's like, it all often, and I don't want to paraphrase her because she is so artful and amazing, and her career is so epic, but so she can say it better for herself.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_05: But all of these groups, they have a kernel of hoping for the best and wanting to do something better and wanting to help and heal people, and that is like this little kernel, and then it's like exploited and become a control mechanism for people.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_05: Um it just makes you so mad.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's so yeah, because then they they can't see it for what it is because they are connected to that kernel, so they're blinded by their own um natural inclination to want to be a good person.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: So just watch just watch the vow.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all the people they got pulled in, you know.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_03: I know, and that that does tie into the theme of technology.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um because I I really um it's so hard to watch to put it bluntly, the algorithms brainwash people to create these subcultures online, which are actually now more like cults online.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's really hard to it's interesting because we were just talking about how we met Rachel and how we met all these beautiful people through the internet, which is like this lovely, nice side of social media.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I wouldn't I mean there's there's still cool parts of it, you know.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, there's but but at the same time, wow, yeah, okay.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: What you're talking about.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_05: But the common denominator, I would argue, is thank you guides, is being uncomfortable.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_05: So Substack is kind of um, it's a little bit more free.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_05: Like, so a lot of independent journalists have landed there.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_05: I've been there for a lot longer than them, believe it or not.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_05: But and uh, you know, I don't have a lot to show for it.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_05: Didn't matter to me.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_05: I just wanted to put my story somewhere that felt right.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_05: But there you can um easily collide with maybe viewpoints that you feel a little uncomfortable with and then read them and get something out of them and go, I think I just grew as a person and my perspective grew.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_05: That's what it's all about, right?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we used to do.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: That we used to we used to have debates.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: You used to, you know, you you would you would have people that you didn't necessarily agree with.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: It was cool if they came to a college campus to give a talk because that spurs debate, you know what I mean?
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: And now it's just we've all just like nope, you know, can't even hear what and I mean, uh you know, whatever.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'll listen to what whatever anybody, you know, I'll I'll okay, tell me what your deal is, you know what I mean?
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that I'm gonna be into it, but you got the right to like unless you're hurting people physically hurting people.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_05: You know, yeah, and I think that's where it kind of started.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_05: Remember when they started making words into weapons, yes, ma'am.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: And all this stuff is moved over to the to the internet, yeah.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: This and I and I think that's one of the you know, when but the that's the first thing with me with Rachel that resonated was when she started talking about Aramon and like the you know that that whole thing, and I was like, I was like, oh yeah, okay.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's the act, that's a literal demon in the machine, you know.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you can take that literally or you can take that woolly, you know.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it doesn't really matter, but it's it's true either way, you know, it's things have uh things have the things are actively dividing us, and they are our contention is that AI is just going to make that worse.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it's exploiting, it's expediting that lose their minds because uh people already don't know what's real and what's not real, and then like now we're gonna have AI like creating like lifelike video and stuff of where you're gonna go.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: Is that a real video clip or is that not, you know, or did or did the clank.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_05: I was somewhere and I was thinking about that, and somebody was saying, um, and I'm pretty, you know, I'm I'm still on X.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_05: I got off of Instagram anything meta, but I'm still on um X because that's where I started when we were authors, Jesse.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_05: Remember?
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_05: And so I have my author front and then I have my curious cat front, but I saw this video and they were like, Oh, my cousin needs a shout-out because she's missing.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_05: And my first thing because of all this stuff with the AI slot was like, Is this real?
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_05: And that's the worst price for technology, is if it dehumanizes us.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, I'm skeptical and I don't believe anything, anybody's suffering.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_05: It's like, unless I see it firsthand, so it's not real, and that's pretty disgusting.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: I can assure you that people are suffering.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: That is a thing that is going on, okay.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's you you don't have to, you don't you don't have to have somebody make a TikTok video to prove it to you.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's going on in the the, you know, you could take that all the way back to all life is suffering.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, so yeah, that is a thing that's happening.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_03: I think that the distortion of reality, it's really interesting because your podcast is literally named as AI the devil.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_03: And if you want to think about it in really simple spiritual terms, if God is truth and the present moment and reality, just creation happening in front of us in the present.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_03: If God is truth and reality, then the distortion of reality would by default be the devil.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: So uh yeah, it is really unfortunate that like uh yeah, well, you were saying that people don't know what's real.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_03: That's really bad.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: That's really a bad thing.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's really bad.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's that that is gonna lead to psychosis and the and and the uh uh um oh what did Kerzwell call it?
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: The uh the singularity, and you know that where where you just you lose all sense of like what reality is and what reality is not.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I have friends who make the point they're like, well, whole system needs to collapse so we can start over.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_05: But oh maybe kind of yeah, okay.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: Fair point, but but did do we have to like uh do we have to march toward total destruction to accomplish that we kind of do.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_05: Um, Natalie, you had a guest on your podcast that just gripped me and I'm blanking on his name right now because he was basically gathering new literal news clippings and the contract that they had, they didn't want all the news clippings anymore.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_05: They were like, no, don't show it.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, please share with us about that.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_03: That was okay.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_03: I made that episode as an emergency episode when I kind of like had this awakening around the the evils of the algorithm.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I started looking at other people's algorithms and being able to witness that we really are living in different realities and it's scary, and it makes people look like evil demons when they if they live in a different reality than you, it's it's they look like they're bad.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_03: They're not bad, they're just seeing a different reality than you are, and it's really scary.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_03: So, um, yeah, so I'm I freaked out and I made that episode as a bonus episode, and he his name's Anthony Miller, and he's a former intelligence analyst, and he had contracts with corporate companies and with the government to gather um inform information.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_03: That's what they do.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_03: They gather information and then the these corporate companies andor the government buys the information to use.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm probably butchering this, but um yeah, he he came on my podcast and was like basically I was on the inside, I gathered the information, and I watched these entities manipulate the information for the public, like just straight up.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_03: Just like we're not getting, yeah, we're not getting the truth.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_03: And it's really it's really um important that everybody knows that we're all being psyoped a little bit.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_05: That's I think it's huge.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_05: I thought that episode was incredibly powerful.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_05: And I thought I knew, but then it just blew my mind to see it firsthand.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_05: He's like, we don't want clippings of civilian deaths in Syria.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_05: We want that not to be a thing.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_05: So this this journalist that's reporting on it, we don't want him in the clippings anymore.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_05: It was so specific and so aggressively specific.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_05: And it's like, oh my God, it's worse than a child, you know, that puts their hands over their ears and I can't hear you, I can't see you.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_05: And we're all living in their world if we choose to believe everything that's in the mainstream media, you know.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're living in whichever one of those realities you want to live in, you know.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's I mean, to an extent, you know, the the the the uh the the thing with the algorithm is that it's going to it's gonna find you and it's gonna be like it's gonna like oh you think this, this, and this.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's amplify that.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: And uh you are under the impression that this, this, and this is dangerous.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's amplify that so you're consistently enraged and uh you sort of like uh stay on the internet arguing with with nothing, you know, like it is literal boss or whatever, yeah.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that way, uh while you're doing that, uh, we're gonna be over here like uh stealing all this money and doing whatever we want to do, you know, while you guys are distracted.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's literally an ego grower.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_05: It's like exactly what it's doing.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_05: It's like an ego farm, it's like an ego.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_05: What's the Monsanto?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_05: It's like ego monsanto is what it is, you know.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um, the the yeah, the seeds, the uh yes, it's like the ego monsanto, they've got these monster seeds to make our egos grow so fast, so big.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then we want to that's a good in there, Jen.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good point.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, you came up with Doomhole.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: All the credit to you.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's not even a yeah, I know.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, come on now.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_04: Did you just volleyball spike away my compliment?
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_04: I think every time.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: Every time he's so uncomfortable.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like it's going in a special notebook.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how to do compliments.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_04: I'm I feel like when you when you get those compliments, they go into a little notebook.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_04: You're like, I'm gonna go over those uh because I didn't feel safe with my therapist when you said you love me, that he I did something good.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I was you imagine like if I actually had a therapist, that poor person, you know what I mean?
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_05: Like, don't make AI your therapist.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_05: Have we learned anything from the doom holes?
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_05: Do not rely on AI.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I look, I don't even have uh all I have is substance.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_05: Calliope, Calliope, your little dog, is that's your therapist?
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_05: Where's Calliope?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: Calliope's over there taking a nap.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: So Dougie, let's not stir that monster away.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_05: Oh Natalie, what else?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_05: Is there anything else that you okay?
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_05: No, I wanted to talk about your art before we get off the line.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, yes.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_05: Oh my god, you're making amazing art, but it's specific to people's birth charts, is the one I'm vibing over.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_05: So please tell us about that.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's one of my favorite things that I do.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_03: I nerd out about I get really excited when I get an order for the personalized pieces.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, yeah.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, just so listeners know, I I use polymer clay to make little goddesses because I want to amplify the representation of the feminine as divine, uh, because we don't see that as much in the West.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so yeah, I make lots of different goddesses out of clay, but I also will do a personalized one by looking at a person's birth chart and then designing it's it looks like the person, but there's all this symbology and um things that reflect their chart.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I I'm I hope that um they represent for people like a it they I want them to be a reminder for people that in in reality you're actually like this divine wild magical free uh thing.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um and the rest is more of a of a construct and and a reminder of how cool and unique you are.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you know, they are that.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_05: I feel like they're channeled.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I like to think so, yeah.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um and my business is called she channeled art.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_03: So so that's why, because I like I like to look at the chart and channel it into the into the piece.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_03: But beautiful.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh, and you I guess it's on your Etsy.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: You can see where like you can see the person and then like and and then the the little goddess that you made of them, and you can see that it's like, oh, it looks like you know, and plus you get that other thing with the chart and stuff.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really cool, I mean, that's a really cool idea.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's magic.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: I actually um I I want to say that I do I do create um I do have orders for men too.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'll I'll do yeah, because people ask me that, and I'm like, no, no, no, I'm not gonna discriminate.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: I I like dudes can be goddesses nowadays.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_05: Yep, you know, darn right.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, exactly.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_05: We need a lot of more of that intersection.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_05: You like we've been talking about hold hold two things gently to be like the bridge is where the magic is.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_05: So the divine masculine and feminine.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, this whole group that's like we have to cut down actual men in order to grow the divine feminine, it's like uh that's not actually what it's all about.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_03: So it's the opposite, it's more opposite.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's acknowledging the enlightened masculine and that and what that brings to the feminine to complete her.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's like what do we what do we need from the other to complete us and get humble and realize that we need each other to create that divine union and not bring not like amplify the the toxic the potential toxicity of the other.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean see there you go right there.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, we're dudes, so you you you gotta tell us, you know, we need that we need that instruction, you know what I mean?
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: So you gotta kind of being specific.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_05: We need Natalie to explain it a lot because that was perfectly said.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because we will just literally just like hang out, like and you know, have like uh, you know, we'll we'll just hang out and and and and like get like an old spool of wire to be like a coffee table and stuff, you know.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh, you know.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: Are you looking at one right now in your realm?
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, like no, I'm I'm a little I'm a little past that, but not not not far, you know.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: How do you use your five-gallon?
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: The days when I first moved to Los Angeles and used to just like drive through the alleys to like that's where I got all my furniture, you know.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my god.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um I feel like you have one of our old couches from Sherman Oaks.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's a true story.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's uh probably, yeah.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I would just be like, I don't know what's wrong.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what's wrong with that couch, but it looks fine to me.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_05: But you know what I hear in that also?
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_05: Because I've been going deep on true crime lately.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_05: Like, how did you not catch any serial killers, Jesse?
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: I could have just like turned into a serial killer at any moment.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not saying turned into, I'm saying turned, you know, turned in a serial killer.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: He says I didn't stop a serial killer.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, maybe you haven't shared that story.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like to think I did.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_05: Dude, at what point it can we call AI a serial?
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: I can tell you a story about a serial killer that I knew that like like and this is real, like it will blow your mind.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: I will tell you sometime.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_04: Will that be a do?
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like we could wrap that in a doom hole.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I don't know if it uh I mean calling him a serial killer is probably, but like he did kill somebody, so yeah.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_04: Was it over cereal?
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_04: Like what kind of cereal?
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_04: Are we talking S-E-R or I didn't know any of that?
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: He owed me, he owed me like 50 bucks for a catering job one time, and I told him I was gonna beat the shit out of him.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't give me my 50 bucks, and then I find out later that, like, oh, that dude killed people.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um, anyway, so yeah, wait, and this has nothing to do with biscuits.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_04: God, I'm 6'3 and a little intimidating when I want to be so I know, and where I'm just like little, like literally, my set is made out of a matchbook that I found.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_04: I feel so short and tiny.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_04: That's I'm little, I'm five feet.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, see, you know, yeah, a little thumblinas.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, Natalie, I'm just so grateful you came on you said yes and you came on our show, and you just are what you're doing is so important to the world.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_05: I feel like the mama bear me just wants to hug you.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_05: What you're doing is very important.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_05: Your voice is so important in the world and your art and your talents and will point people to everything.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_05: But where do you want?
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_05: How do you want our listeners to send their love to you?
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I have a website, um, She Art.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_03: She is the name of my business.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_03: I actually created it with Rachel White.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_03: I did her um her program where she helps you brand and all that thing, all that.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so yeah, it's S-I-D-H-E.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, so it's a weird spelling, it's the ancient Celtic um word for nature.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna I was gonna I was gonna bring that up to you because I needed yeah, I knew it was spelled differently.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, uh I looked at it the first time I looked at it, I go, okay, this is way too east.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm way too east, Texas, for to figure out how to say this, you know.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we decided Rachel and I together decided that in the logo it will say pronounced she and underneath because it's very confusing.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but it was such a cool concept.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a lot of people.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's cool.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: I I like I you know, you should Jen, you should that you you should look it up because I have been.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: I've been like it's all like fairies and stuff.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, they are my people.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_05: I'm a mountain troll.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_05: I feel like do you know that you're Faye?
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_05: I feel like you know this, right?
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean wasn't it you that we were on the thing the other night and talking about fairies?
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like you and Rachel were talking about fairy getting fairies intoxicated or something.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what I thought.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I it was probably Rachel that was talking about getting fairies intoxicated, but yeah.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_04: Rachel needs boundaries, those fairies come in her house.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, dude, my fairies know to stay out in the yard.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, you gotta stay out here because otherwise I can't sleep.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's not a party.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: She just throws it out there and just like, yeah, I heard all this like tip tip chattering in my house, you know, or music.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, You're you're gonna wake up the dog, you know, and the fairies are in my house, you know.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just like, maybe put up some more of them iron spikes you're always talking about to keep the fairies away or something, something's up with, but anyway.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my gosh.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_04: Well, please come back and visit us anytime.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_04: Just know you have an open invitation anytime to come back.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_03: This was so much fun.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_03: You guys are great.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_03: I I laughed a lot.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: I hope I mean that's that's what we're trying to do.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: And we hope so.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're we don't know a lot.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: We're figuring a lot of this stuff out, you know, and so we're and and and some of the stuff we talk about, especially getting into the tech and the AI, is pretty heavy nowadays.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is very heavy.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: We we can't we're like, hey, look, we we gotta kind of make people laugh too, or um, can't just throw doom and gloom out there constantly, you know, it's not good for anybody.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_05: It's not healthy, yeah.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's gonna laugh through the apocalypse a little bit.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_05: It's the craziest, it's the funniest apocalypse ever, if you look at it that way.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's the silliest one there's ever been.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_05: Well, and also it's like being human, laughing, crying, those are such human things being vulnerable that AI in the machine can never be.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_05: So we just need to be more of it, however, we can be.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_03: Good point.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_03: I agree.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_05: All right, well, lots of love to everybody listening and love to Natalie.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Natalie.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you for Natalie.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: Fucking clankers, fucking clankers.