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The Knife: Off Record – 102 · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

0:00
Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. Hi, Pasha,
0:21
Speaker 1: Hey Anna, how's it going. It's good. I am excited
0:24
Speaker 1: to be here in studio. Can you believe it? I
0:27
Speaker 1: mean I can hardly believe it. We're recording our very
0:29
Speaker 1: first episode of The Knife off record, which we also
0:33
Speaker 1: understand is technically there's a record of it because we
0:36
Speaker 1: are recording it, sol of it. It's all here for
0:40
Speaker 1: you to hear, keep a record of.
0:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're calling this episode format of our show off
0:45
Speaker 2: record because we have our interview episodes where we speak
0:51
Speaker 2: with people who have lived through a crime, and many,
0:54
Speaker 2: many times we come across stories where something really interesting
0:58
Speaker 2: has happened, something we want to explore further, but nobody
1:02
Speaker 2: wants to talk with us about it, and we still
1:05
Speaker 2: want to talk about it, so we find out everything
1:07
Speaker 2: we can, and we're here to bring you those stories.
1:11
Speaker 1: Yeah. I actually just talked to someone yesterday and I
1:14
Speaker 1: found the timing appropriate since I knew we were coming
1:16
Speaker 1: in to record today. I was like, Yes, I got
1:19
Speaker 1: a hold of him. I've been trying to call him.
1:21
Speaker 1: We got to talk to this guy. He is intimately
1:23
Speaker 1: connected to the story that we're researching, and this type
1:27
Speaker 1: of thing happens to us all the time, where you
1:29
Speaker 1: get a hold of someone they start talking to you
1:31
Speaker 1: and you're just like, oh, yes, like everything you're saying
1:34
Speaker 1: is gold. I'm so thrilled that you're talking to me.
1:38
Speaker 1: And then they get to the end and they're like,
1:39
Speaker 1: but I don't want to do an interview, and also
1:41
Speaker 1: don't use my name off the record.
1:45
Speaker 2: This is off the record, and you're like, Okay, how
1:49
Speaker 2: am I going to tell this story and also keep
1:53
Speaker 2: this person's trust. So that's something we're always looking to do. Recently,
1:57
Speaker 2: I called someone about a story and it was a
1:59
Speaker 2: situation where the same thing. She answered my call, she
2:04
Speaker 2: was excited to hear from me, excited to tell me
2:07
Speaker 2: about what she had been through. I asked her if
2:10
Speaker 2: she would schedule a recorded interview. She agreed, and just
2:14
Speaker 2: before the call ended, she said, you know, actually I
2:16
Speaker 2: had a question and I said what is it?
2:18
Speaker 1: And she said, what is a podcast? And what a
2:21
Speaker 1: great question? A great question. It did stump me for
2:25
Speaker 1: a moment.
2:26
Speaker 2: So at that point I have to take a step
2:28
Speaker 2: back and say, Okay, this person may not totally understand
2:32
Speaker 2: what they're signing. Up for and I need to make
2:34
Speaker 2: sure that they know that before they do the interview.
2:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes those conversations end up turning into an interview.
2:41
Speaker 1: Sometimes they don't. They just end up as being informative
2:44
Speaker 1: background conversations for a story we are researching. And then
2:47
Speaker 1: sometimes it means we can't turn the story into an
2:50
Speaker 1: interview episode. And that's okay too. But you and I
2:54
Speaker 1: have been and we'll get into our intros here in
2:56
Speaker 1: a second for people who don't know us, But we've
2:58
Speaker 1: been producing podcasts for a while together now, and one
3:01
Speaker 1: of the things that we've learned is that there are
3:03
Speaker 1: stories that you and I feel passionate about, we fall
3:06
Speaker 1: in love with, we think are important stories to tell
3:09
Speaker 1: that we for a variety of reasons, have not been
3:11
Speaker 1: able to tell on a podcast. So we are going
3:14
Speaker 1: to bring you listeners those stories as well on the
3:18
Speaker 1: Knife Off Record episodes. And we're excited to be able
3:21
Speaker 1: to tell you some stories that we find interesting and important.
3:25
Speaker 2: Right and really put you guys in the room with
3:27
Speaker 2: us during conversations we're having about these stories.
3:30
Speaker 1: Anyway.
3:31
Speaker 2: I mean, when we can't find the right person to
3:33
Speaker 2: interview for whatever reason about a story, usually doesn't stop
3:36
Speaker 2: us from sitting on zoom for an extra half hour
3:39
Speaker 2: of being like, but guess what I learned? And that
3:41
Speaker 2: is why I'm so excited to be doing these episodes
3:43
Speaker 2: me too. These are going to be conversational episodes. Along
3:47
Speaker 2: with bringing listeners a true crime story, we are going
3:50
Speaker 2: to do a variety of things. We'll talk about conversations
3:53
Speaker 2: that you and I find important or intriguing. As we
3:56
Speaker 2: produce a true crime podcast, will sometimes answer listener questions,
4:01
Speaker 2: but it gives us an opportunity to invite listeners into
4:04
Speaker 2: the things that you and I talk about that we
4:06
Speaker 2: are fascinated by. This episode, this is our first the
4:10
Speaker 2: Knife off Record episode. We are going to answer a
4:14
Speaker 2: few questions from listeners and then we're going to get
4:17
Speaker 2: into a story that Patia is going to tell us
4:20
Speaker 2: about a missing person's case that you were going to
4:23
Speaker 2: want to stick around for. Yeah, and that missing person's
4:26
Speaker 2: case and the research I did on that actually helped
4:29
Speaker 2: me get a job working with you, Hannah, So why
4:33
Speaker 2: don't you tell people a little bit about yourself?
4:36
Speaker 1: So I'm Hannah Smith, and I've been working in podcasting
4:41
Speaker 1: since twenty seventeen. Like many many people listen to the
4:46
Speaker 1: first season of Cereal when it came out, and really
4:49
Speaker 1: was just blown away. I have always liked writing and storytelling,
4:53
Speaker 1: and I remember just feeling so amazed that you could
4:58
Speaker 1: tell a story, a true true story, a crime story,
5:01
Speaker 1: in this format, in this way, and I just felt like,
5:05
Speaker 1: I want to try to tell stories like that. I
5:06
Speaker 1: want to do something like that. So I started working
5:08
Speaker 1: in podcasting. I worked on a bunch of different shows
5:12
Speaker 1: in different genres, editing, producing, writing, and then in twenty twenty,
5:17
Speaker 1: I got a job lead, producing, hosting, and writing a
5:20
Speaker 1: true crime podcast called The Opportunist. We covered crimes of opportunity,
5:25
Speaker 1: mostly fraud, as well as some cults. And even though
5:29
Speaker 1: I was a true crime fan before that, it was
5:32
Speaker 1: my first time working on a true crime podcast, and
5:34
Speaker 1: I fell in love with true crime all over again.
5:37
Speaker 1: From this different perspective of what it's like to be
5:40
Speaker 1: on the other side of it, to make a podcast
5:43
Speaker 1: like this, I found out that I love making this
5:46
Speaker 1: type of podcast. I love researching stories, I love speaking
5:49
Speaker 1: and interviewing people who were there, who lived it. I
5:53
Speaker 1: knew that this is what I wanted to do, so
5:56
Speaker 1: I kept doing it edit it for three years and
5:59
Speaker 1: was throw to do it. And if you've never heard
6:02
Speaker 1: of the show, no worries. You're here now, and I'm
6:04
Speaker 1: so glad that you're here with us. If you did
6:08
Speaker 1: hear the show and we're a fan, then I have
6:10
Speaker 1: to tell you that I was, by no means the
6:12
Speaker 1: only person that made that show. There were a lot
6:14
Speaker 1: of great people that made that happen. And one of
6:16
Speaker 1: those great people is sitting here with me today, Paytia Eton.
6:19
Speaker 1: So if you were a fan of the show, you
6:21
Speaker 1: should know her as well, because Paytia came and worked
6:24
Speaker 1: on the show from season two on and we just
6:27
Speaker 1: immediately became friends and found out that we have a
6:31
Speaker 1: lot in common as far as the stories that we
6:34
Speaker 1: are interested in and the way that we want to
6:36
Speaker 1: tell them. Long ago, we dreamed about doing a new show,
6:40
Speaker 1: a different show together. So I'll throw it over to
6:42
Speaker 1: you now, Patia, tell us a little bit about yourself.
6:45
Speaker 2: So when I moved to Los Angeles, I wanted to
6:47
Speaker 2: work in scripted television, and I pursued that for a
6:50
Speaker 2: really long time, and I ended up working at a
6:52
Speaker 2: production company. Loved the people I worked with and the
6:55
Speaker 2: shows I was working on, but a lot of stars
6:58
Speaker 2: have to align for a TV show to get made,
7:00
Speaker 2: and I was becoming sort of disenchanted by that. And
7:04
Speaker 2: the pandemic came along, and I was one day away
7:08
Speaker 2: from flying to North Carolina for a pilot shoot. Everything
7:11
Speaker 2: got shut down, and I was just so disappointed. I
7:15
Speaker 2: was out on my deck listening to a podcast and
7:18
Speaker 2: I'm like, you know, I wonder if I could do this,
7:20
Speaker 2: but I don't have any podcasting experience. I don't have
7:23
Speaker 2: any nonfiction storytelling experience. I've only ever worked in scripted.
7:28
Speaker 2: So I was like, Okay, how can I do this.
7:30
Speaker 2: I'm trapped in my apartment and I found a missing
7:34
Speaker 2: person's case in Tennessee and I started researching it and
7:38
Speaker 2: as I was in the process of doing that, I
7:39
Speaker 2: applied to work with you on Opportunists.
7:42
Speaker 1: Did not get the job. Applied again, Well, it wasn't
7:45
Speaker 1: my fault that you didn't get the job. I just
7:47
Speaker 1: want to say it was someone else's.
7:49
Speaker 2: But yeah, I was Okay, I'm going to just take
7:53
Speaker 2: this extra time to continue teaching myself how to do
7:58
Speaker 2: this kind of work. And that was the best thing
8:01
Speaker 2: that could have happened, because I really fell in love
8:04
Speaker 2: with speaking with people that I would have otherwise never
8:07
Speaker 2: met and hearing their stories, and you know, it's amazing.
8:09
Speaker 2: You think of it as this work you're doing, but
8:12
Speaker 2: it's actually incredible how many of them you end up
8:14
Speaker 2: keeping in touch with. And I also, as a true
8:17
Speaker 2: crime listener, started thinking, Okay, these are the kinds of
8:20
Speaker 2: podcasts I like listening to.
8:21
Speaker 1: But why.
8:22
Speaker 2: One thing that I think you and I really connected
8:24
Speaker 2: on is that there's a wide spectrum in true crime storytelling.
8:28
Speaker 2: But why it's so meaningful to us is because at
8:32
Speaker 2: the end of the day, some of these stories are
8:35
Speaker 2: really fascinating, but why do we tell them.
8:38
Speaker 1: Well, I think that people want.
8:40
Speaker 2: To know that what they went through mattered, and it
8:43
Speaker 2: does matter and we can all learn from it. And
8:46
Speaker 2: so I was just really enamored with that and by
8:49
Speaker 2: the ability to just make something from home, and that
8:53
Speaker 2: was really cool to.
8:54
Speaker 1: Me, especially probably coming from television. Yeah, there's so much
8:57
Speaker 1: that goes into making something.
8:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, we were able to make the
9:03
Speaker 2: show that we were working on remotely, and it was
9:06
Speaker 2: just about working really hard and trying really hard and
9:10
Speaker 2: getting better every day. And now we're here, and I
9:12
Speaker 2: just couldn't be more excited.
9:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too. You're going to tell the story later
9:17
Speaker 1: about this case that you ended up doing a lot
9:19
Speaker 1: of research into and reporting on. I'm really excited for that.
9:24
Speaker 1: Even though you should have gotten the job in the beginning,
9:26
Speaker 1: you know, it gave you time to look into this case.
9:29
Speaker 1: It gave me time to look into the case, and
9:31
Speaker 1: also really solidified that this was something I wanted to
9:34
Speaker 1: be doing. It wasn't just like a hail Mary attempt
9:38
Speaker 1: to get a job when no one knew the future
9:41
Speaker 1: of television. Yeah, and now we're here, and I'm just
9:44
Speaker 1: so excited to be working together and Exactly Right Media.
9:48
Speaker 1: What a dream? What a dream? Truly. Another thing we're
9:57
Speaker 1: excited about is hearing from you. We would love to
10:01
Speaker 1: talk to you about past episodes and answer any questions
10:05
Speaker 1: you had about it, or provide case updates if we
10:07
Speaker 1: have them. So you can write to us at the
10:10
Speaker 1: Knife at Exactlyrightmedia dot com, and we can't wait to
10:13
Speaker 1: hear from you. Since this is the first time we're
10:15
Speaker 1: doing this, we asked the producers and staff if they
10:18
Speaker 1: had any questions for us that would help you get
10:21
Speaker 1: to know us and learn about what we do, and
10:23
Speaker 1: I think we got some good ones say did have
10:25
Speaker 1: a questions. The first question we're going to answer today
10:28
Speaker 1: has to do with last week's episode, our interview with
10:31
Speaker 1: Darun Henry. The question is, how did you first come
10:34
Speaker 1: across Darun's story and how did you go about reaching
10:37
Speaker 1: out to her? Paysha, do you want to take this one? Yeah?
10:39
Speaker 2: I actually saw Darun's story playing out in the media
10:43
Speaker 2: in real time shortly after she released the viral video,
10:47
Speaker 2: and the story just really stuck with me. And as
10:50
Speaker 2: soon as we had a platform where I felt like
10:53
Speaker 2: we could bring her on to tell her.
10:55
Speaker 1: A story, I suggested that we reach out.
10:58
Speaker 2: I had just had a moment taken in Instagram off
11:00
Speaker 2: my phone and actually asked you to reach out, and
11:03
Speaker 2: that's how we were connected to Durun.
11:06
Speaker 1: Yeah. Always a good idea, you know, to take a
11:08
Speaker 1: break from social media and don't make sure that great. Yes,
11:12
Speaker 1: we take turns so that one of us can always
11:14
Speaker 1: reach out to sources. This is what friends are for,
11:17
Speaker 1: That's right, And Durun was really gracious when I reached out,
11:20
Speaker 1: and we are so glad that she came on the podcast.
11:24
Speaker 2: Our next question is what types of stories or motivations
11:27
Speaker 2: are you drawn to most a crime of passion, random
11:31
Speaker 2: opportunistic crime, greed motivated crimes, or other.
11:35
Speaker 1: Hmm, great question. Great question. I find myself drawn to
11:42
Speaker 1: stories that are less straightforward. I'm less interested in like
11:46
Speaker 1: a crime of passion where someone like murdered someone else
11:50
Speaker 1: without forethought. I love to dig into a story where
11:55
Speaker 1: there are a lot of layers. This is one of
11:57
Speaker 1: the reasons I love cult stories. I feel really passionate
12:01
Speaker 1: about telling cult stories. I really love interviewing people who
12:06
Speaker 1: have been a part of a cult and left a cult.
12:09
Speaker 1: I just think that those stories are so complicated and
12:13
Speaker 1: there's so many layers. There's so much psychology involved as well,
12:17
Speaker 1: you know. I find myself drawn to like really complex,
12:20
Speaker 1: difficult to understand crimes, really like why did someone do it?
12:25
Speaker 1: If the answer is not clear, then I'm like, Okay,
12:28
Speaker 1: let's dig in and try to figure out why. Oftentimes
12:31
Speaker 1: there's not like an easy answer, right. But I remember
12:36
Speaker 1: when we were on The Opportunist, we would try to
12:39
Speaker 1: find cases where the motivation was not always money, and
12:43
Speaker 1: it was so hard. When you're just researching stories all
12:47
Speaker 1: the time and having to tell stories all the time,
12:50
Speaker 1: you start to see all these patterns and it was
12:52
Speaker 1: also because we were making stories that were within a lens, right,
12:56
Speaker 1: there had to be crimes of opportunity. There was a
12:59
Speaker 1: lot of odd that we covered and cults and scams,
13:03
Speaker 1: and a lot of times people are motivated by money,
13:05
Speaker 1: so we were always like looking for stories where the
13:08
Speaker 1: motivation was not money and was different or more unclear.
13:13
Speaker 1: And I think that with cult stories, money is oftentimes
13:17
Speaker 1: very much a factor, but there's also this factor of
13:21
Speaker 1: just like psychological control that sometimes people want to wield
13:25
Speaker 1: over other people. So that's a long answer, but I
13:28
Speaker 1: am really interested in scams and cults, particularly what about you. Yeah,
13:34
Speaker 1: I think in researching investigating the cults we looked into
13:38
Speaker 1: on opportunities were fascinating. I think the patterning cults that
13:43
Speaker 1: intrigues me is this idea that you become someone you
13:46
Speaker 1: don't know. It's this like, you know, when someone commits
13:50
Speaker 1: a crime and you know that person, maybe you now
13:54
Speaker 1: they're a stranger to you, But when you become the
13:56
Speaker 1: stranger to yourself, it's like, well, can I even trust
13:58
Speaker 1: my own brain?
14:00
Speaker 2: Yes? And that is a really wild thing for people
14:03
Speaker 2: to sort of unpack and pull themselves out of. And
14:07
Speaker 2: it's also this slow burn kind of story where you know,
14:12
Speaker 2: it doesn't start with like, hey, come join my cult.
14:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, it never starts like ever would not be.
14:17
Speaker 2: Good for that cult, And so that is I think
14:21
Speaker 2: something that really resonates with me is you never think
14:23
Speaker 2: it's going to be you, and then it is and
14:26
Speaker 2: you don't even know it for a long time. I'm
14:29
Speaker 2: also really interested in missing persons cases. I think what
14:33
Speaker 2: draws me into those is maybe a sense of possibility,
14:37
Speaker 2: but also like a hope that always you hope for
14:41
Speaker 2: the best. I think in any case like that, but
14:44
Speaker 2: this sort of how can we come together to maybe
14:47
Speaker 2: bring some answers or clarity here? I think whenever we
14:51
Speaker 2: can do good, we want to do that. And so
14:54
Speaker 2: those cases I do find really end up intriguing me.
14:59
Speaker 2: I think that when you when you work in true crime,
15:02
Speaker 2: you know, you find yourself reading all of these really
15:04
Speaker 2: heavy headlines and it doesn't always make sense to tell
15:09
Speaker 2: a crime story. You know, it doesn't always make sense.
15:12
Speaker 2: It's not just because someone will talk to us and
15:15
Speaker 2: tell it. Yeah, I totally agree. You've really hit on
15:18
Speaker 2: something that we think about a lot when we're choosing
15:20
Speaker 2: a story. I think it's such a great point when
15:23
Speaker 2: it comes to missing persons cases, because there is that
15:26
Speaker 2: hope and as you'll talk about later too, just that
15:29
Speaker 2: like need for answers, that it's hard to not have
15:31
Speaker 2: those answers for loved ones who have someone go missing, right,
15:35
Speaker 2: And then it makes me think of for stories that
15:39
Speaker 2: are involved victims of cults or like a romance scam
15:43
Speaker 2: or something like that. I always find great value in
15:47
Speaker 2: speaking to someone and letting them tell their story and
15:50
Speaker 2: trying to understand that because there's so much victim blaming
15:54
Speaker 2: that happens. Right, people are oftentimes considered to be dumb
15:57
Speaker 2: or whatever, and it's just that's not been the case
16:00
Speaker 2: and what I've found talking with so many people, So
16:03
Speaker 2: I like the chance to try to communicate that to
16:06
Speaker 2: listeners and understand the complexities of these type of situations
16:10
Speaker 2: and how it could happen to anyone. And that feels
16:13
Speaker 2: meaningful to me. Yeah, absolutely, Okay. The next question, true
16:18
Speaker 2: crime often remains open ended with cases unresolved or unsolved.
16:23
Speaker 2: Do you like that aspect of it or is it
16:25
Speaker 2: frustrating anytime a victim or their family wants the case
16:30
Speaker 2: solved and it's not, it's frustrating. It's hard to talk
16:34
Speaker 2: to them, and you know the reality is that in
16:37
Speaker 2: a lot of cases, as time goes on, resources are
16:40
Speaker 2: allocated to something that is more maybe current or solvable.
16:44
Speaker 2: You know, I find it frustrating on their behalf whenever
16:48
Speaker 2: that happens. I know, law enforcement also finds it frustrating.
16:51
Speaker 2: You know, they might not have the manpower or the
16:53
Speaker 2: resources to put as much into an unsolved case as
16:56
Speaker 2: they would like. It's also really exciting to see the
17:00
Speaker 2: developments and technology and how that's been able to bring
17:03
Speaker 2: resolution to cold cases. And you know, that's something that
17:07
Speaker 2: I think has been interesting to watch play out. People
17:11
Speaker 2: being convicted of crimes decades earlier and families so really sting. Yeah,
17:16
Speaker 2: finally getting that resolution.
17:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, especially with well obviously DNA developments and then the
17:23
Speaker 1: DNA testing and you hear about like crimes being solved
17:26
Speaker 1: because of.
17:27
Speaker 2: That genetic genealogy. I mean, I guess from the standpoint
17:32
Speaker 2: of a producer, the unsolved unresolved cases, you know, I
17:39
Speaker 2: think everyone wants to play a part in helping solve something,
17:43
Speaker 2: but ultimately those stories can be harder to tell because
17:47
Speaker 2: how do you end a story that doesn't have resolution?
17:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we can go back to Cereal season one. Yeah,
17:52
Speaker 1: everyone discovered the difficulty of it listening. Oh wow, there's
17:56
Speaker 1: no easy way to wrap up this true story, right
17:59
Speaker 1: someone in prison? Yeah?
18:01
Speaker 2: Okay, So last listener question for today is actually one
18:06
Speaker 2: I love talking about, which is how do you get
18:09
Speaker 2: people to agree to speak with you?
18:11
Speaker 1: Yeah? This is a huge part of the job. How
18:14
Speaker 1: do you get someone to agree to speak with you?
18:16
Speaker 1: I think it's really tricky. We do a lot of
18:19
Speaker 1: cold calling. You know. There's so many times where I
18:22
Speaker 1: will call someone on the phone who I don't know,
18:24
Speaker 1: who have never spoken with before, and talk with them
18:28
Speaker 1: about the project that I'm doing and what my approach is,
18:32
Speaker 1: and try to build that trust with them so that
18:34
Speaker 1: they will feel comfortable enough to give me their time
18:38
Speaker 1: and energy and talk to me about an experience they
18:42
Speaker 1: had that was probably a really bad experience. So even
18:45
Speaker 1: them revisiting that and telling me that takes a lot
18:49
Speaker 1: of trust. So I think ultimately it's building trust and
18:52
Speaker 1: being authentic. It does.
18:54
Speaker 2: And a lot of times when you first called someone,
18:57
Speaker 2: their question is how did you get this number? Totally
19:00
Speaker 2: and then you have to tell them, well, I was
19:02
Speaker 2: just you know, lurking around the internet. And I actually
19:05
Speaker 2: found a bunch of stuff in addition to that. But yeah,
19:09
Speaker 2: I did just call your cell phone. And I try
19:12
Speaker 2: to sometimes send a text like, hey, this is who
19:14
Speaker 2: I am. I'm going to give you a call. I'd
19:16
Speaker 2: love to speak with you, but I do sometimes I
19:19
Speaker 2: never do that. If I feel like they might be
19:23
Speaker 2: unsettled by an unknown number and someone asking about it.
19:27
Speaker 2: Sometimes I'll do that, not always, but it depends. If
19:31
Speaker 2: I know that someone has given a statement to like
19:33
Speaker 2: a local newspaper already about what happened to them, you know,
19:37
Speaker 2: it gives us a sense of okay, they might be
19:40
Speaker 2: open to hearing from me, or it's someone whose name
19:43
Speaker 2: has maybe never been published and you don't know how
19:46
Speaker 2: they're going to respond to being contacted. I think it
19:48
Speaker 2: also plays into it how much time has passed since
19:52
Speaker 2: whatever the incident was, if it's been you know, a
19:55
Speaker 2: year or ten years. I think if it's something that
19:59
Speaker 2: is more recent, they might be more expecting your call.
20:02
Speaker 2: If it's not, they might be put off by it
20:04
Speaker 2: at first. And you know, talking about ethical storytelling and
20:09
Speaker 2: sort of what we look for when we're sourcing new stories,
20:13
Speaker 2: is this why why are we going to tell the story,
20:15
Speaker 2: and I think it's really important on that first phone
20:17
Speaker 2: call that you're able to answer that question absolutely. Yeah, yeah,
20:22
Speaker 2: because you know, understandably, why would someone talk to us
20:26
Speaker 2: and retell us this traumatic story just because And I
20:32
Speaker 2: think it's also just a good measure a guidepost for
20:35
Speaker 2: yourself as you're looking into stories. If you can't answer
20:37
Speaker 2: that question, maybe don't make that phone call.
20:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is that's a really good guide post, because
20:43
Speaker 1: you need a compelling why for someone to care to
20:46
Speaker 1: talk to you. Because a lot of people have said
20:49
Speaker 1: this comes at a cost for me, I'm going to
20:51
Speaker 1: have to revisit something that was horrible, so I need
20:54
Speaker 1: to know that there's a reason I'm doing it, which
20:56
Speaker 1: is totally fair.
20:58
Speaker 2: And oftentimes, you know, in these stories, everyone's not on
21:01
Speaker 2: the same page about how things happened, and you know,
21:05
Speaker 2: was someone's sentence fair, were they guilty at all? Did
21:09
Speaker 2: you play a role in it that you're not disclosing
21:11
Speaker 2: in your interview. These are things people are concerned with
21:15
Speaker 2: when they're going to be recorded. And I get that.
21:18
Speaker 1: I've interviewed someone in the past who I thought was
21:21
Speaker 1: a victim and then over the course of speaking with him,
21:24
Speaker 1: multiple times, it sort of became I started to question, like,
21:27
Speaker 1: I don't think what you're telling me is true. I
21:30
Speaker 1: have court documents, and you know, I have all this
21:32
Speaker 1: research that shows what happened, and it doesn't line up
21:35
Speaker 1: with what you're saying. And now I'm wondering if you
21:37
Speaker 1: were like part of the crime in some way. So
21:41
Speaker 1: it can get a little bit tricky. And when you
21:43
Speaker 1: call someone out of the blue, Patia, if you have
21:46
Speaker 1: like fifteen seconds before the hang up on you and
21:49
Speaker 1: think you're like a spam caller, what words are you
21:51
Speaker 1: trying to get out quickly?
21:53
Speaker 2: I usually see something along the lines of like, if
21:55
Speaker 2: I'm calling you, I'm going to say, Hi, is this Hannah.
21:59
Speaker 2: My name is Patia Eton. I'm a producer based in
22:02
Speaker 2: Los Angeles, and I'm calling to ask you about whatever,
22:06
Speaker 2: just so that you know they immediately know who I'm
22:08
Speaker 2: calling for.
22:09
Speaker 1: BEU.
22:09
Speaker 2: You don't always have the right number. And I've said
22:11
Speaker 2: my name, and then I just sort of wait, and
22:14
Speaker 2: then probably they say, what is your name exactly? Yeah,
22:17
Speaker 2: I get that all the time, which I get it
22:19
Speaker 2: Patia Patia, Yeah, that is my quick shpiel. And then
22:26
Speaker 2: you know, a surprising amount of people do take that call,
22:29
Speaker 2: whether they agree to interview or not. Occasionally you get
22:32
Speaker 2: hung up on and that's just part of the job.
22:34
Speaker 2: And when people do that, we don't call them back.
22:37
Speaker 2: We just leave them alone. But yeah, it also varies
22:39
Speaker 2: a lot. Are you calling a victim, are you calling
22:42
Speaker 2: law enforcement? Are you calling the perpetrator of the crime,
22:45
Speaker 2: because those are people that we have a duty to call,
22:47
Speaker 2: whether or not we think the interview is relevant to
22:50
Speaker 2: the story. You know, a lot of times when we're
22:52
Speaker 2: calling the person who has been convicted of a crime,
22:55
Speaker 2: we know they're not gonna call us up and sort
22:58
Speaker 2: of dive into their own psych We know they're going
23:01
Speaker 2: to say it didn't happen like that, you read something wrong.
23:05
Speaker 1: That's generally the case.
23:06
Speaker 2: But you have a duty to make those phone calls anyway,
23:09
Speaker 2: if you're going to talk about a crime that's been committed.
23:12
Speaker 2: So it also depends who you're calling, and generally those
23:14
Speaker 2: people are less interested in speaking with you. Okay, let's
23:27
Speaker 2: move on to Producers Cut, which is a segment where
23:31
Speaker 2: we let you peek behind the curtain of what it
23:34
Speaker 2: is like for us as producers on a true crime
23:36
Speaker 2: podcast and kind of give you an insider look to
23:39
Speaker 2: the conversations that we have with each other. You know, Pasha,
23:42
Speaker 2: the last question that we took from listeners about cold calling.
23:45
Speaker 2: It's really interesting because I think it leads right into
23:48
Speaker 2: the case that you first investigated. Before you had ever
23:51
Speaker 2: made a podcast or were a producer on a podcast
23:55
Speaker 2: or anything. You just took it upon yourself to investigate
23:59
Speaker 2: a case, which I think is a really interesting case.
24:01
Speaker 2: How did you find out about it? Yeah, so this
24:05
Speaker 2: is all happening back in twenty twenty, during the pandemic.
24:09
Speaker 2: I'm deciding I'm really interested in working on a podcast,
24:13
Speaker 2: and so I have no podcasting experience at that point,
24:16
Speaker 2: and after not getting the associate producer role on the
24:20
Speaker 2: opportunities that first time magic, Yeah tragic, I decided I
24:24
Speaker 2: should try to make one. And I had a lot
24:27
Speaker 2: of time at that point. My job was not taking
24:30
Speaker 2: up very much of it. And I started looking into
24:33
Speaker 2: a missing person's case in Sparta, Tennessee. And I started
24:38
Speaker 2: doing that in August of twenty twenty, so I didn't
24:41
Speaker 2: exactly know where to start. I thought maybe I would
24:44
Speaker 2: look on Reddit and see if there was anything locals
24:47
Speaker 2: were saying about the case, and I really didn't find anything,
24:51
Speaker 2: except for one person on the Sparta Tennessee reddit had
24:55
Speaker 2: maybe commented on a true crime Reddit post about it, saying, yeah,
25:01
Speaker 2: I'm from there, this happened. We don't know where they are.
25:03
Speaker 2: It wasn't like they didn't have any sort of like
25:05
Speaker 2: explosive information. But I reached out to that person and
25:10
Speaker 2: he didn't want me to use his names. I'm not
25:11
Speaker 2: going to use it now, but he grew up in
25:13
Speaker 2: that town and was the same age as the kids
25:15
Speaker 2: who went missing. And those kids who went missing were
25:19
Speaker 2: Aaron Foster, female age eighteen, and Jeremy Bechdel male, age seventeen,
25:25
Speaker 2: and they went missing on April third of two thousand.
25:29
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about the case. What you
25:33
Speaker 1: knew at that time, I guess was that basically all
25:36
Speaker 1: that you knew.
25:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, So all that had been written about the case
25:39
Speaker 2: at that point was that Aaron Foster and Jeremy Bechtel
25:43
Speaker 2: had gone missing, And what was generally known about the
25:46
Speaker 2: case was that they had been last seen at a
25:48
Speaker 2: party and they had left that party in Aaron's car together,
25:52
Speaker 2: and that would be around ten pm that night. So initially,
25:56
Speaker 2: this is all I knew about the case, and the
25:58
Speaker 2: party had taken place at a person named Bubba Cole's house.
26:01
Speaker 2: Bubba's actual name is Brian Cole. He's actually since passed away,
26:04
Speaker 2: passed away in twenty fourteen, so I was never able
26:07
Speaker 2: to speak with Bubba.
26:08
Speaker 1: But Bubba's house was a location that was.
26:11
Speaker 2: Known to local law enforcement as a place where people,
26:15
Speaker 2: you know, there was partying, there was alcohol and some
26:17
Speaker 2: drug use. And that's pretty much what was out there
26:21
Speaker 2: is that they had left this party and never been
26:23
Speaker 2: seen again. And so the speculation in the beginning was
26:27
Speaker 2: really at this party, well what happened at the party?
26:31
Speaker 2: That's kind of where I started. I tried to figure
26:34
Speaker 2: out who was there, and I started actually by calling
26:37
Speaker 2: Jeremy's parents. Now I learned that over the course of
26:42
Speaker 2: looking for his parents, his mother, Ronda, had passed away.
26:45
Speaker 2: She passed away from a battle with cancer in twenty eighteen.
26:50
Speaker 2: So I reached out to Jeremy's father, Ronnie Bechdel, and
26:53
Speaker 2: Ronnie took my call and I just said, hey, you know,
26:57
Speaker 2: this is my name, and I'm working on a story
27:02
Speaker 2: about this. Sometimes I didn't even say podcast. I would
27:05
Speaker 2: say like, I'm not sure what I want this to be.
27:07
Speaker 2: I think I want it to be a podcast, but
27:09
Speaker 2: I'm just interested in learning more about this case and
27:12
Speaker 2: seeing if there's anything we can find out. It's been
27:15
Speaker 2: a lot of years. At this point, they had been
27:17
Speaker 2: missing twenty years. So Ronnie, you know, he's the nicest person,
27:21
Speaker 2: and he was like, yeah, what do you want to know?
27:24
Speaker 2: And he told me that he was like, well, I
27:27
Speaker 2: actually spoke with Jeremy while he was at the party.
27:30
Speaker 2: I spoke to him an hour before he left the party,
27:33
Speaker 2: and he said, can you pick me up from school tomorrow?
27:36
Speaker 1: And I said sure.
27:38
Speaker 2: So I learned Jeremy was getting sged, which you know,
27:41
Speaker 2: I'm not in a professional investigator, but it tells me
27:44
Speaker 2: he had some sort of plan for the future. You know,
27:47
Speaker 2: he was planning to attend classes that next day, coordinating
27:50
Speaker 2: a ride home with his dad. And Ronnie said, when
27:53
Speaker 2: he went the next day, Jeremy didn't show up, and
27:56
Speaker 2: he said that was unusual, So, okay, we know that's
27:59
Speaker 2: out of character. Jeremy and I started with that, and
28:02
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, so they had plans the next day.
28:06
Speaker 2: They probably didn't just run off somewhere. But as I
28:10
Speaker 2: continued making calls that theory kept presenting itself that Aaron
28:15
Speaker 2: and Jeremy had run off. The idea was that they
28:17
Speaker 2: were in Florida, in Pensacola, Florida. It was a place that.
28:20
Speaker 1: Maybe one of them had a family member, and they
28:23
Speaker 1: were always really, you know, intrigued by the idea of
28:26
Speaker 1: going there. Did Jeremy's dad, Ronnie think that was a
28:30
Speaker 1: possibility as well? Did he mention that or no, Yeah,
28:32
Speaker 1: we talked about it. He said no.
28:35
Speaker 2: He said it would be very unlike Jeremy to be
28:38
Speaker 2: gone this long. I mean at this point twenty years, right.
28:42
Speaker 2: He didn't say I think that Jeremy's passed away, but he,
28:45
Speaker 2: you know, optimism had faded over the years, two decades.
28:50
Speaker 2: And he was just so kind and willing to share
28:54
Speaker 2: with me who you know, I'd never met him, and
28:57
Speaker 2: it really kind of motivated me to continue on with
29:00
Speaker 2: this project. And so I continued calling people. I was like,
29:04
Speaker 2: can you tell me the names of any of his friends?
29:06
Speaker 2: And he could, and so I started off that list,
29:10
Speaker 2: and I called a woman named Rosa, who at the
29:14
Speaker 2: time was actually living in southern California, And so I
29:18
Speaker 2: live in Los Angeles, and I drove out to see her,
29:20
Speaker 2: and we had lunch, and Rosa had told me, yes,
29:24
Speaker 2: they had gone to this party and were never seen again.
29:27
Speaker 2: And she was not at the party, but she was
29:29
Speaker 2: supposed to be there, and so she had all of
29:31
Speaker 2: the survivor's guilt. Rosa's just like she's a person you
29:36
Speaker 2: want as your friend. And I mean, she's bubbly, she's kind,
29:39
Speaker 2: she's warm, she's smart, she's funny, and she's so close
29:43
Speaker 2: with Aaron Foster and carrying this with her all of
29:46
Speaker 2: these years. And you know, I had listened to a
29:49
Speaker 2: lot of true crime podcasts, I'd read a lot of
29:50
Speaker 2: true crime stories, but speaking to Rosa really showed me
29:55
Speaker 2: how long someone carries this. You know, it doesn't go away,
30:01
Speaker 2: you don't stop wondering. And she also was just so
30:05
Speaker 2: welcoming that I was like, Okay, I'm going to continue
30:07
Speaker 2: making these phone calls.
30:09
Speaker 1: Did she tell you anything about Aaron in that meeting,
30:11
Speaker 1: like her relationship with Aaron, Like who is Aaron Foster?
30:16
Speaker 2: She said, Aarin was so much fun, just the nicest person.
30:19
Speaker 2: She said that she wasn't sure if Aaron and Jeremy
30:22
Speaker 2: were dating at the time, they were very close friends.
30:26
Speaker 2: But exactly what their relationship was was sort of unknown
30:29
Speaker 2: at the time, and so Rosa told me that they
30:32
Speaker 2: had all talked about running away to Florida. That was
30:34
Speaker 2: something they talked about all the time.
30:35
Speaker 1: Including Rosa.
30:36
Speaker 2: She is talking Abourosa, so the three of them. Wow, yeah,
30:40
Speaker 2: and so I'm like, okay, that is something to think about.
30:43
Speaker 2: So these kids have actually talked about this a lot,
30:46
Speaker 2: this idea of running away. She said, You know, I
30:49
Speaker 2: really did think that they were in Florida for a
30:51
Speaker 2: long time. But I also couldn't imagine Aaron leaving without me.
30:55
Speaker 2: That didn't seem like something Aarin would do. But we
30:58
Speaker 2: had been talking about it, talked about it really recently
31:01
Speaker 2: before they disappeared, So I just sort of assumed that
31:05
Speaker 2: that's what happened.
31:06
Speaker 1: It's just such an interesting thing to talk about with
31:09
Speaker 1: your friends. And I'm curious if that speaks to something
31:12
Speaker 1: about living in Sparta, Tennessee. As a teenager. Did you
31:16
Speaker 1: get any clarity of like, why were they all wanting
31:18
Speaker 1: to leave and go to Florida? What was that fantasy
31:21
Speaker 1: or dream about? Yeah, I think it was.
31:23
Speaker 2: It was youth, and you know, you're naive at that age.
31:26
Speaker 2: I think about a lot of things. But Sparta's a
31:29
Speaker 2: beautiful place, and it's a small town, and almost all
31:32
Speaker 2: of the people I met there were so warm and welcoming.
31:35
Speaker 2: It's not as if like, who could live in Sparta.
31:38
Speaker 2: It's more just that, you know, if you're a high
31:40
Speaker 2: school kid or high school aged, you've been born and
31:43
Speaker 2: raised in this small town of the same people. You
31:45
Speaker 2: have this curiosity about other places. And I think that
31:49
Speaker 2: this rumor that they had run off to Florida was
31:52
Speaker 2: pretty widely accepted by their peers in the beginning, because
31:55
Speaker 2: you're almost rooting for them. You're like, oh, they went,
31:59
Speaker 2: they left, they did something different, that's an adventure. They're
32:03
Speaker 2: on an adventure. Something that stuck out to me about
32:06
Speaker 2: this is that when Aaron and Jeremy went missing, so
32:08
Speaker 2: they're lasting April third, there's not this sort of April fourth,
32:12
Speaker 2: April fifth, call to action in the community. There's not
32:15
Speaker 2: this moment of Aaron and Jeremy are missing, we need
32:19
Speaker 2: to find them.
32:20
Speaker 1: It was a.
32:21
Speaker 2: Much slower process than that. They were sort of accepted
32:25
Speaker 2: to maybe have run away, but then the parents concern
32:28
Speaker 2: was pretty evident, and then they're sort of calling friends
32:32
Speaker 2: and trying to see what's happening. But there was not
32:35
Speaker 2: this like immediate sense of Okay, we need to have
32:38
Speaker 2: people working on this case. And so that was a
32:42
Speaker 2: really hard thing for me to understand looking back, But
32:45
Speaker 2: after having worked on the case, you realize, you know,
32:47
Speaker 2: this is a small town. They don't have a ton
32:49
Speaker 2: of resources to be working with. And it was at
32:52
Speaker 2: a time before people having cell phones. You know, in
32:56
Speaker 2: Sparta they talked about some of the kids.
32:59
Speaker 1: Had pagers, wow in two thousand.
33:01
Speaker 2: In two thousand and the police department, the sheriff's office
33:05
Speaker 2: at that point I believe had one computer.
33:07
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah.
33:08
Speaker 2: So it wasn't like they were not working on it.
33:11
Speaker 2: I think it was just a very different time in
33:14
Speaker 2: sort of the expectation of what happens when a kid
33:18
Speaker 2: doesn't come home from a party. There's also if these
33:21
Speaker 2: are kids who maybe have done that once before. Aaron
33:24
Speaker 2: had run away before for I don't even know how
33:27
Speaker 2: long it lasted. I think she drove to Nashville or something.
33:29
Speaker 2: I don't quite remember, but you kind of accepted in
33:32
Speaker 2: the beginning, and so Rosa remembers getting a call from
33:35
Speaker 2: Aaron's mother saying have you seen her? And she doesn't
33:38
Speaker 2: remember when that was. She thinks it was within maybe
33:41
Speaker 2: a week of Aaron Oka and Jeremy going missing. And
33:45
Speaker 2: she said when she got that call was the first
33:48
Speaker 2: time she thought maybe something is wrong. And I think
33:51
Speaker 2: that really points sort of to where things start to
33:54
Speaker 2: go south in this investigation. And it's not one person's fault.
33:58
Speaker 2: I think it was many facts. But Rosa says, no,
34:01
Speaker 2: she hasn't seen Aaron. She hasn't seen her since. I
34:03
Speaker 2: think it was the day before the party, because Rosa
34:06
Speaker 2: didn't go to the party. But you know, we know
34:08
Speaker 2: that that they were there because Ronnie Bechchel, Jeremy's dad,
34:12
Speaker 2: spoke with him and at the party.
34:14
Speaker 1: He was at the party. Did he know that he
34:16
Speaker 1: was with Aaron? He knew he was with Aaron. Okay.
34:19
Speaker 2: And so I ended up speaking with an investigator by
34:22
Speaker 2: the name of Chris Isam who had moved on from
34:24
Speaker 2: the Sheriff's office, but told me what he could tell
34:27
Speaker 2: me about the case, and I eventually learned another few
34:30
Speaker 2: names of people who were at the party, and one
34:32
Speaker 2: of those names is Becky. Becky did not agree to
34:35
Speaker 2: record a conversation, but she did agree to speak with
34:38
Speaker 2: me and she said, yeah, they were there, and you're
34:40
Speaker 2: going to hear a lot about Bubba Cole's house and
34:43
Speaker 2: how it was this place where people were drinking and
34:45
Speaker 2: using drugs, but actually we were just hanging out. Maybe
34:48
Speaker 2: there was some alcohol, shouldn't have been doing that and driving,
34:51
Speaker 2: for sure, but this was not this sort of like dark,
34:55
Speaker 2: maybe shady scene that I had been hearing about. It
34:58
Speaker 2: was just a place people were hanging out and you know,
35:01
Speaker 2: being teenagers. And so she said, yeah, they did. They
35:04
Speaker 2: left around ten and we didn't see him again. And
35:07
Speaker 2: so I'm like, okay, so I know they left it ten,
35:09
Speaker 2: but I know they were there at nine. And I
35:11
Speaker 2: said where were they going? And she didn't really know.
35:14
Speaker 2: She thought maybe they were going to pick up Aaron's
35:17
Speaker 2: brother in town somewhere. So Aaron had a little brother,
35:21
Speaker 2: has a little brother, And I had called Aaron's family
35:25
Speaker 2: members over the course of this process and they were
35:29
Speaker 2: unwilling to speak with me. And that's okay, I totally
35:32
Speaker 2: get it. It goes back to that moment of yeah, this
35:35
Speaker 2: is like, what could be more painful than not knowing
35:38
Speaker 2: where your daughter is? Yeah, and you don't know me,
35:41
Speaker 2: and I have no prior work to show for myself,
35:44
Speaker 2: so of course accepted that. But something that I found
35:48
Speaker 2: really tricky to sort of work through during this project
35:52
Speaker 2: was that Ronda Bechdel was her married name, rondal Ledbetter.
35:56
Speaker 2: Once she and Ronnie divorce, so Jeremy's mother, she was
35:59
Speaker 2: frequently pressing law enforcement for answers, frequently reaching out to
36:03
Speaker 2: Aaron's family to sort of join forces, and her perception,
36:08
Speaker 2: based off of what her friends and family told me,
36:11
Speaker 2: was that Aaron's family was not operating the same way.
36:14
Speaker 2: They really didn't want to talk to her about it.
36:16
Speaker 2: And I don't know why that is to this day,
36:18
Speaker 2: because they didn't speak with me. And again, I just
36:21
Speaker 2: that's what I was told from those who were really
36:23
Speaker 2: close to Ronda. But Ronda never believed Jeremy ran away.
36:28
Speaker 2: Ronda always believed something happened gotcha.
36:31
Speaker 1: And was there some kind of suspicion put on perhaps
36:35
Speaker 1: Aaron's parents because of this, like unwillingness to discuss it
36:39
Speaker 1: or talk or collaborate or Yeah, I wouldn't call it suspicion.
36:43
Speaker 2: I think it was more of just a you know,
36:47
Speaker 2: it's an intimidating thing to ask someone about something that's
36:50
Speaker 2: so painful when they don't want to talk about it.
36:54
Speaker 2: And you know, they certainly spoke with law enforcement about it.
36:57
Speaker 2: It's not like they were uncooperative in those terms. But
37:01
Speaker 2: their response was very different than Jeremy's family when I
37:04
Speaker 2: called them got it, and I get it, but it
37:07
Speaker 2: was it was hard. They were people who I really
37:09
Speaker 2: wanted to speak with and couldn't, and so it took many,
37:13
Speaker 2: many months, And eventually Aaron's brother and I exchanged a
37:17
Speaker 2: few text messages and he told me in those text messages,
37:20
Speaker 2: he said, around ten o'clock, Aaron came and picked me
37:23
Speaker 2: up from the pool hall in town and took me
37:26
Speaker 2: home and Jeremy was in the car with her. I'm like, okay,
37:29
Speaker 2: So they left the party, they went to the pool hall,
37:31
Speaker 2: then they go to Aaron's house, and this was the
37:34
Speaker 2: first I had ever placed them anywhere outside of Bubba's
37:39
Speaker 2: house after ten pm. Now, mind you, at this point
37:42
Speaker 2: I hadn't seen the police report, and I had spoken
37:44
Speaker 2: with numerous members of law enforcement about it, and one
37:47
Speaker 2: of them went to Florida literally looking for them twice.
37:51
Speaker 1: Wow. They fully were exploring that theory.
37:54
Speaker 2: Wow.
37:55
Speaker 1: So yeah, that was kind of where their head was at.
37:58
Speaker 1: So you hadn't seen the police report at this time.
38:00
Speaker 1: But if I'm remembering what you said, this is different
38:02
Speaker 1: from like the information that was in the news article
38:06
Speaker 1: that you had read, because that information had said they
38:08
Speaker 1: were last seen at the party, right right, And so
38:11
Speaker 1: they were not last seed at the party at that point.
38:12
Speaker 1: I know their last scene at Aaron's house. Okay, their
38:15
Speaker 1: lasting at Aaron's house by her little brother who she's
38:17
Speaker 1: dropping off there, and Jeremy's in the car with her.
38:20
Speaker 1: So I asked him, I said, did they go inside?
38:23
Speaker 1: You know?
38:23
Speaker 2: Did they turn around and leave? He's like, I don't know.
38:26
Speaker 2: I got out of the car and I went inside,
38:28
Speaker 2: and that was what I knew. So Becky, who had
38:31
Speaker 2: been at the party, had told me their plan was
38:34
Speaker 2: to come back.
38:35
Speaker 1: Their plan was to come back to the party. So
38:36
Speaker 1: then I'm sitting there thinking, well, maybe they were last
38:39
Speaker 1: see to the party, because maybe they went back and
38:41
Speaker 1: left again. And I'm trying to piece that together, and
38:45
Speaker 1: it's so many years ago, and people just really didn't
38:48
Speaker 1: know did I watch them leave a first time? Or
38:51
Speaker 1: was I watching them leave a second time? But the
38:53
Speaker 1: person who did know at ten pm they were at
38:57
Speaker 1: his parents' house was her brother, and so I just
39:00
Speaker 1: kind of started back from that point and the Florida theory.
39:05
Speaker 1: To me, it felt very unlikely.
39:08
Speaker 2: I'm not a professional investigator by any means, but it's
39:13
Speaker 2: hard to leave with no money. And Jeremy had a
39:16
Speaker 2: paycheck waiting for him at Burger King, where he was
39:18
Speaker 2: working at the time. His parents both agreed would be
39:22
Speaker 2: very unlikely for him to not pick up his paycheck. So,
39:26
Speaker 2: if they're not in Florida and they were lasting at
39:29
Speaker 2: Aaron's house, did something happen at Aaron's house? What's going on?
39:33
Speaker 2: I actually went to Sparta. I flew there in October
39:36
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty, and I met up with the guy
39:41
Speaker 2: that I met on Reddit, who's just.
39:43
Speaker 1: The nicest person I know. A small town in Tennessee
39:46
Speaker 1: to meet up with someone who I met on Reddit, okay, great.
39:48
Speaker 1: He was actually a producer. He was the nicest person ever.
39:52
Speaker 2: Drove me all around and I asked him, I said,
39:54
Speaker 2: can you take me from Bubba Cole's house to Aaron's.
39:57
Speaker 1: House where the party was back to Aaron's house where
40:01
Speaker 1: they were last seen. Yes, and we did.
40:03
Speaker 2: And he's like, I think these are the roads you
40:05
Speaker 2: would take if you lived here in their back roads.
40:07
Speaker 1: And how far was it?
40:09
Speaker 2: It was miles. It was like a I think a
40:11
Speaker 2: twenty minute drive. I don't know, okay, of break.
40:13
Speaker 1: Like it was three houses down or something. Okay, No,
40:16
Speaker 1: And you know it's dark. Sparta is not a big city.
40:19
Speaker 1: There's not as much light pollution, so it's pitch black
40:23
Speaker 1: at the time. We're driving.
40:24
Speaker 2: And this sort of eerie moment happens where I'm in
40:27
Speaker 2: the car with him and a buck comes right down
40:30
Speaker 2: into the road and he comes to the screeching halt
40:32
Speaker 2: and I mean, I swear to you this is the
40:35
Speaker 2: strangest thing. But at that point, because his headlights, you know,
40:39
Speaker 2: we're on this buck that was like looking right at us.
40:41
Speaker 2: Just first, well, second, I noticed the water and we're
40:44
Speaker 2: right by the calf Killer River. So the road is
40:46
Speaker 2: running alongside the calf Killer River and I'm like, oh,
40:50
Speaker 2: the calf Killer River. Like he's telling me about it,
40:53
Speaker 2: and I recalled a moment that law enforcement told me
40:57
Speaker 2: they searched the river.
40:58
Speaker 1: Mm.
40:59
Speaker 2: They said, you know, we drugged that river from end
41:01
Speaker 2: to end. And wow, I'm not discounting it, but I'm like, wow,
41:06
Speaker 2: this is a really dark road and that it's winding,
41:09
Speaker 2: and if they were drinking. I don't know, but the
41:12
Speaker 2: law enforcement said that they looked in the river, right,
41:14
Speaker 2: They told me they looked in the river, Okay. And
41:17
Speaker 2: this is where things get murky is that the case
41:21
Speaker 2: was handed off to different investigators at different times. They
41:25
Speaker 2: had maybe a different process for record keeping than they
41:29
Speaker 2: would today, limited ability to use a computer, handwriting things,
41:35
Speaker 2: It's not as easy to transfer information from one place
41:38
Speaker 2: to another. So I don't know if maybe someone talked
41:41
Speaker 2: about looking in the river and didn't or if they
41:44
Speaker 2: did and didn't find anything. But what ends up happening
41:47
Speaker 2: is I go back to law enforcement after all of
41:50
Speaker 2: my research because I want them to go in the
41:52
Speaker 2: record and talk to me. So I'm like, well, here's
41:54
Speaker 2: what I found. And I said, I don't think they
41:56
Speaker 2: were lasting at the party. I think they were lasting
41:58
Speaker 2: at Aaron's house. At this I'm working on The Opportunist.
42:01
Speaker 2: I'm very busy, and I'm trying really hard to like
42:04
Speaker 2: make the most of that job, and I'm dedicating way
42:07
Speaker 2: less to this project, but I'm still keeping tabs on it.
42:11
Speaker 2: And all of a sudden I get a call from
42:14
Speaker 2: that first guy I met on Reddit, and he's like,
42:16
Speaker 2: you'll never believe it. They're pulling up a car from
42:20
Speaker 2: the Calfkiller River and it's in nineteen ninety eight Pontiat Grandam,
42:23
Speaker 2: which is the car Aaron was driving.
42:25
Speaker 1: Wow. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And so I
42:29
Speaker 1: call the sheriff and he's like, yeah, I'm here right now.
42:32
Speaker 2: They're pulling up the car. We haven't looked inside, but
42:34
Speaker 2: they are pulling up the car. And they were always
42:37
Speaker 2: very sort of kept me arms length. They never told
42:41
Speaker 2: me anything. They shouldn't have told me. They were careful
42:43
Speaker 2: about that. But he did tell me he knew how
42:46
Speaker 2: hard I had been working on it.
42:47
Speaker 1: Yeah.
42:47
Speaker 2: So Aaron and Jeremy's remains were found in the car.
42:51
Speaker 2: The sort of suspected what happened in the case is
42:55
Speaker 2: that she probably lost control of the vehicle while driving
42:58
Speaker 2: and there were no guardrails at that time in certain
43:00
Speaker 2: areas and the car went into the water.
43:05
Speaker 1: Wow. So they found the remains and it was it
43:09
Speaker 1: was basically no foul play.
43:12
Speaker 2: No foul play suspected. The headlights were on, the key
43:15
Speaker 2: was in the ignition. I believe the radio was on.
43:18
Speaker 2: I think the windows were I don't remember if the
43:20
Speaker 2: windows were up or down, but nothing led them to
43:23
Speaker 2: anything other than this was just an accident.
43:25
Speaker 1: Wow.
43:26
Speaker 2: So as of twenty twenty two, the last thing I've
43:29
Speaker 2: seen published about it, and I think still to this
43:31
Speaker 2: day it's an unsolved case.
43:33
Speaker 1: But there's no foul play suspected. Okay. Wow. And what
43:37
Speaker 1: was people's reactions that you had talked to and looked
43:40
Speaker 1: into this and how did they feel about having this
43:43
Speaker 1: finally answered?
43:45
Speaker 2: Well, people were really confused about my role in the
43:48
Speaker 2: carving found which is really limited. Actually, you know, I
43:52
Speaker 2: placed Aarin and Jeremy at her parents' house, but that
43:57
Speaker 2: actually had turned out to be something that was in
43:59
Speaker 2: the place support the whole time, so I wasn't the
44:03
Speaker 2: only person to know that. I think it was sort
44:05
Speaker 2: of this game of telephone of they were lasting and
44:09
Speaker 2: leaving the party, but they had said they would come
44:10
Speaker 2: back to the party. Did they go back to the
44:12
Speaker 2: party and leave again? You know, it's confusing, and I
44:16
Speaker 2: think law enforcement did the best they could, and I
44:19
Speaker 2: have to give them credit because they were much more
44:22
Speaker 2: interested in finding Aaron and Jeremy than they were any
44:25
Speaker 2: perception of like them having ever missed something. They didn't
44:29
Speaker 2: care about that they wanted them to be found, and
44:32
Speaker 2: that's not always the case when you're reaching out to
44:35
Speaker 2: law enforcement. They were so kind to me and were
44:38
Speaker 2: so professional and answered all my questions. So I did
44:42
Speaker 2: not find Aaron and Jeremy by any means. The person
44:45
Speaker 2: who found them is actually a YouTuber and he has
44:49
Speaker 2: a channel called Exploring with nug and he is a
44:53
Speaker 2: diver who looks for people who are missing in cars
44:57
Speaker 2: near bodies of water.
44:59
Speaker 1: So he found the case on his own.
45:01
Speaker 2: He contacted the sheriff's office, and the sheriff's office then said, actually,
45:07
Speaker 2: maybe look closer to Aaron's house in the Calfkiller River.
45:11
Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, So that's just what he does, is he
45:15
Speaker 1: dives into bodies of water looking for cars and missing
45:18
Speaker 1: people or people that might be.
45:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a whole host of people doing this now
45:23
Speaker 2: on YouTube and binding people who have been missing for decades. Wow,
45:28
Speaker 2: because there's just no trace of them, my gosh.
45:31
Speaker 1: Yeah.
45:31
Speaker 2: And so he went out to Sparta and he took
45:36
Speaker 2: his boat into the river and used sonar and then
45:39
Speaker 2: dove down and matched the license plate to Aaron's car.
45:43
Speaker 2: And it looks like it's parked at the bottom of
45:45
Speaker 2: the river, which we can watch the video.
45:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, how I found out is.
45:49
Speaker 2: When they were pulling the car up, people were calling
45:51
Speaker 2: me because they thought I had something to do with that,
45:53
Speaker 2: which I didn't. And then it was so strange to
45:56
Speaker 2: watch this case that no one had heard of or
45:58
Speaker 2: been working on in the media, at least in the
46:01
Speaker 2: New York Times the next day or the next few days.
46:05
Speaker 2: It happened so quickly, and then it was like it
46:07
Speaker 2: was international news. Wow, probably more national news, but it
46:11
Speaker 2: was published everywhere, and it was just amazing to see
46:15
Speaker 2: so their remains were found and they were buried. I
46:18
Speaker 2: think in twenty twenty two. It's a tragedy. It's a
46:21
Speaker 2: huge loss in Rhonda, Jeremy's mother. She didn't get the
46:24
Speaker 2: answers before she passed. We'll put a link to that
46:27
Speaker 2: video of them pulling up the car in the show notes.
46:29
Speaker 2: I never had any contact with this person who operates
46:32
Speaker 2: this YouTube channel. He did this all on his own,
46:35
Speaker 2: but I'm just amazed and grateful he was able to
46:38
Speaker 2: find them.
46:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, seriously, I'm so glad that it was answered for
46:42
Speaker 1: the people who had been wandering what happened to them
46:45
Speaker 1: for twenty years. It's such a long time.
46:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, by the time they were discovered, it was almost
46:50
Speaker 2: twenty one years. And you know, I met so many
46:53
Speaker 2: great people in Sparta. I met this guy Jordan and
46:56
Speaker 2: this other guy Chet, who were so close with Jeremy.
46:58
Speaker 2: Jeremy was an aspiring rapper. They had this music group.
47:01
Speaker 2: I think it was called the Little Town Lokstas. I'm
47:03
Speaker 2: not really I don't exactly remember, but just the most
47:07
Speaker 2: like kind people. And I went out to Jordan's house
47:11
Speaker 2: and it was this really kind of somber moment because
47:14
Speaker 2: he had built this like beautiful, picturesque white country farmhouse
47:18
Speaker 2: on this stunning piece of land in Sparta. His daughter's there,
47:21
Speaker 2: his dogs, his wife, you know, he's a grown man
47:23
Speaker 2: at this point, and we're talking about Jeremy, who was seventeen,
47:27
Speaker 2: and it's just sort of in everyone's memory, just always seventeen.
47:30
Speaker 2: And I think it hit me in that moment how
47:32
Speaker 2: much time had passed. And it just solidified my interest
47:36
Speaker 2: in doing this kind of work, because even though I
47:40
Speaker 2: didn't solve the case, someone feeling heard goes a long way.
47:45
Speaker 2: In podcasting, I think it's really helpful. I think you
47:48
Speaker 2: get more authentic storytelling, and it also just really connects
47:51
Speaker 2: you to people. And these people's friend had been missing
47:54
Speaker 2: over twenty years, and I think it mattered to them
47:57
Speaker 2: that someone cared to look into it.
48:00
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And it's also I think with like missing persons
48:03
Speaker 1: cases and unsolved cases, sometimes just having attention back on it,
48:08
Speaker 1: you never know what peace led to, what peace you
48:11
Speaker 1: were minding. Law enforcement. Again, I really think that they
48:15
Speaker 1: were last seen at Aaron's parents' house. You know, could
48:19
Speaker 1: haven't you know, been fresh in his mind when this
48:21
Speaker 1: other guy calls, Like, it's just I think people, I
48:24
Speaker 1: mean not everybody, of course, but I know that there's
48:27
Speaker 1: people that really appreciate having that attention on a case
48:30
Speaker 1: because they're looking for answers and it's great when they
48:34
Speaker 1: can actually get them. Yeah.
48:36
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean I spoke with Sheriff Steve Page and
48:40
Speaker 2: Sparta and he was like just so kind and wanting
48:45
Speaker 2: anyone who was interested to look into it. He was
48:48
Speaker 2: obviously not the sheriff when this all took place, and
48:51
Speaker 2: you know, really understood the challenges that his department was
48:55
Speaker 2: facing back then. And just like he took my call,
48:58
Speaker 2: he took this YouTuber's call and accepted help. And they
49:02
Speaker 2: were found and that's awesome.
49:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so glad that you were able to tell
49:06
Speaker 1: us about this on this podcast because you had worked
49:09
Speaker 1: on this for so long and it had been a
49:12
Speaker 1: case that was so close to you and important to you.
49:15
Speaker 1: You know, was solved and you had moved on with
49:17
Speaker 1: your life and didn't end up putting any episodes out
49:20
Speaker 1: about it. But you've heard some of them. I have,
49:23
Speaker 1: and they're really good. Thank you. Yeah, so I'm glad
49:26
Speaker 1: that you were able to talk about it on the show. Yeah.
49:29
Speaker 2: It was an incredible learning experience for me, and ultimately,
49:32
Speaker 2: I think it made me a better producer. We're going
49:40
Speaker 2: to wrap up today's episode by telling you what we're
49:43
Speaker 2: listening to or reading right now. It could be a book,
49:47
Speaker 2: a podcast, or a show, just something that has captured
49:50
Speaker 2: our attention.
49:51
Speaker 1: Great. So, the thing that I want to talk about
49:55
Speaker 1: is this book that I actually read last year. I
49:59
Speaker 1: came out twenty twenty four. I actually listen to it.
50:02
Speaker 1: It's a good book to listen to, and it's called Sociopath,
50:07
Speaker 1: a memoir by Patrick Gagney. I think that's how you
50:11
Speaker 1: say her name. And it was an easy listen, super fascinating,
50:17
Speaker 1: easy to get through. I have thought about this book
50:20
Speaker 1: so many times since I read it. I love to read,
50:25
Speaker 1: but like a lot of times I read a book,
50:27
Speaker 1: i'll think about it a little bit. This book I've
50:29
Speaker 1: thought about so often, and part of it is the
50:32
Speaker 1: work that we do in true crime. But I cannot
50:35
Speaker 1: recommend it enough. It is written by a sociopath, So Patrick.
50:40
Speaker 1: She's a clinical psychologist with a PhD and also a
50:44
Speaker 1: diagnosed sociopath. Wow. The memoir is just her life story.
50:48
Speaker 1: It helped me understand sociopaths or what it would mean
50:53
Speaker 1: to be a sociopath so much more. I still don't
50:55
Speaker 1: understand it. It's very difficult to really understand what that
50:59
Speaker 1: would be like. It's such a different experience than what
51:02
Speaker 1: I experience. But sociopath is a word that's thrown around
51:05
Speaker 1: so often, right in true crime. So and so's a sociopath,
51:08
Speaker 1: So and so's a sociopath. We've had conversations around this
51:11
Speaker 1: of like, how do we use this word? Maybe let's
51:13
Speaker 1: not try to use it unless someone has actually been diagnosed,
51:16
Speaker 1: because we actually don't know if they are they aren't.
51:20
Speaker 1: I want there to be so much more research done
51:22
Speaker 1: about sociopaths, and I suspect there will be, but there
51:25
Speaker 1: really hasn't been a ton. So Patrick talks in this
51:28
Speaker 1: book about her upbringing. She grew up in a loving,
51:32
Speaker 1: healthy family who was well resourced. She was you know,
51:36
Speaker 1: went to really good schools, did really well in school,
51:39
Speaker 1: was really smart, and had parents who like listened to
51:42
Speaker 1: her and really tried to help her. Like she had
51:44
Speaker 1: a really good upbringing. You know. I think sometimes there's
51:47
Speaker 1: misconceptions of someone's a sociopath because they had this horrible
51:50
Speaker 1: thing happened to them or whatnot, Like it's this result
51:53
Speaker 1: of trauma, right, and her whole sort of the thing
51:58
Speaker 1: that she poses in the book book is that it's not.
52:01
Speaker 1: It is more like a neurodivergency. And she walks through
52:08
Speaker 1: being a young kid and watching her mom like try
52:13
Speaker 1: to teach her and her sister like life lessons and
52:15
Speaker 1: teach them empathy, and she remembers from a young age
52:18
Speaker 1: feeling like she really did not get it. She didn't understand.
52:22
Speaker 1: She could observe people around her understanding this, and from
52:26
Speaker 1: a young age was very clear that she was different,
52:30
Speaker 1: and so started to feel really isolated and like no
52:32
Speaker 1: one understood her. And when she was honest about her
52:36
Speaker 1: you know, feelings or thoughts. She often got the response
52:40
Speaker 1: from her parent, teacher classmates that there was something wrong
52:44
Speaker 1: with the way that she was thinking and feeling and
52:46
Speaker 1: interacting with the world. So she talks about that feeling
52:50
Speaker 1: of being perceived as problematic even from a very young age,
52:55
Speaker 1: sort of played with and intensified some of the behavioral
53:01
Speaker 1: problems that she then went on to display for much
53:04
Speaker 1: of her life. I mean, she talks about wanting to
53:07
Speaker 1: cause other people pain as a release from these feelings
53:11
Speaker 1: that she's having, or lack of feelings or like distance.
53:14
Speaker 1: And it's interesting, though, this desire to sort of cause
53:19
Speaker 1: someone pain if you can't feel for them. I know,
53:24
Speaker 1: it's so hard to wrap my mind around, which is
53:28
Speaker 1: why I loved this book because some of the concepts
53:31
Speaker 1: they're so abstract. Okay, sociopaths don't feel empathy, they don't
53:35
Speaker 1: feel learned emotions. A lot of our emotions are learned emotions,
53:39
Speaker 1: like empathy. She still feels happy, sad, you know, emotions
53:43
Speaker 1: that you're born with, but like, what does that actually
53:45
Speaker 1: look like in a life? How does that play out?
53:48
Speaker 1: And so she through the book takes the reader on
53:51
Speaker 1: a journey where she's talking about this struggle where she
53:54
Speaker 1: wants to be a good person. She wants to be
53:57
Speaker 1: a contributing member of society, she wants to get married
54:00
Speaker 1: and have children and all of these things, but it's
54:03
Speaker 1: so difficult for her because she sees the world and
54:06
Speaker 1: experiences the world so completely differently from the people around her.
54:11
Speaker 1: I think it's such a fascinating read. Since I've read it,
54:14
Speaker 1: I think about it so often when consuming other true
54:17
Speaker 1: crime podcasts or books or documentaries. I'm always like, is
54:22
Speaker 1: that person a sociopath? And then it kind of gives
54:25
Speaker 1: you this different lens. It doesn't justify anything that someone
54:29
Speaker 1: is doing, especially when they're committing crimes or hurting other people.
54:32
Speaker 1: But I'll wrap it up by saying, you know, Patrick
54:35
Speaker 1: says in the book that she wrote this book for
54:37
Speaker 1: other sociopaths because from her perspective, and she became a
54:42
Speaker 1: PhD and studied this because she was looking for answers
54:45
Speaker 1: to understand herself and there were none. The answer was like, well,
54:49
Speaker 1: sociopaths should be in prison, and she's like, so that's
54:52
Speaker 1: the only option for my life. I don't believe that,
54:55
Speaker 1: And so she wrote this sort of like for other sociopaths.
55:00
Speaker 1: To offer them ideas about how you could exist in
55:04
Speaker 1: a different kind of way. And if you think about it,
55:07
Speaker 1: if we all thought about it or approached it as
55:09
Speaker 1: this is a neurodivergency, how would we as a society
55:14
Speaker 1: try to help integrate those people into society in a
55:16
Speaker 1: healthy way as opposed to just not understanding them isolating them,
55:21
Speaker 1: Maybe we would have fewer serial killers. You know, I
55:23
Speaker 1: don't know, it's interesting to think about. Yeah.
55:26
Speaker 2: And also, like you said, so mind mending because she
55:30
Speaker 2: has this emotional pull to help other sociopaths.
55:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a purpose for her. And it's really
55:37
Speaker 1: interesting the way she talks about emotions and feeling And
55:40
Speaker 1: it's so hard to sort of understand that because she
55:45
Speaker 1: is married now, but like she doesn't feel love in
55:48
Speaker 1: the same way that non sociopaths feel love. But that
55:52
Speaker 1: doesn't mean she doesn't care about her husband. Wow, isn't
55:55
Speaker 1: that wild to think about her husband? Must just be
55:58
Speaker 1: such an emotionally grounded person. Yeah, no, that's great. I'm
56:02
Speaker 1: going to check that out. Patia, what have you been
56:04
Speaker 1: listening to or reading? Uh, I've been watching or watching,
56:08
Speaker 1: I've been watching watching, I have been rewatching. Actually a
56:12
Speaker 1: show called Accused, Guilty or Innocent. That is an an
56:16
Speaker 1: E show that I've watched on a streaming platform. It's
56:20
Speaker 1: a really incredible show because of the unique perspective, which
56:24
Speaker 1: is that they're taking you through a criminal trial from
56:27
Speaker 1: the perspective of the defendant, and that defendant, you know,
56:32
Speaker 1: is saying that they are innocent in some way, shape
56:35
Speaker 1: or form. Maybe it's that it was a vehicular accident
56:38
Speaker 1: that caused death. But they're fighting for their freedom, is
56:42
Speaker 1: what they're doing. And it really sheds light on something
56:46
Speaker 1: you don't really see in a lot of headlines. You know,
56:48
Speaker 1: for example, if someone dies in a car accident, there's
56:52
Speaker 1: understandably not a lot of sympathy in that article to
56:55
Speaker 1: the driver who is thought to have caused the accident.
56:58
Speaker 1: But you really see these people for so much more, like,
57:01
Speaker 1: you know, what are they going to have to leave
57:03
Speaker 1: behind if they go to jail for what happened? And
57:06
Speaker 1: do they really deserve that? And are they really a
57:09
Speaker 1: danger to society? And you're really asking all these questions
57:12
Speaker 1: as you're watching it, like, Wow, everyone wants justice when
57:16
Speaker 1: something terrible happens, but what is also the cost of
57:20
Speaker 1: that and what does justice bring to the victim's family,
57:25
Speaker 1: and what additional destruction does someone going to jail, Cause,
57:32
Speaker 1: you know, someone could be facing their family being displaced
57:36
Speaker 1: because they no longer have that income, or someone could
57:39
Speaker 1: be watching their son who thought they were doing the
57:42
Speaker 1: right thing now spending his adult life in jail. It's
57:46
Speaker 1: a hard show to watch in moments, but it is
57:48
Speaker 1: a really well done, I think, docu series. So it's
57:53
Speaker 1: people who have been accused of a crime. What kind
57:57
Speaker 1: of crimes? Are they? Heavy crimes?
57:59
Speaker 2: You know? Okay is one that you'll see in a
58:01
Speaker 2: few episodes. There's a mother on the first season who
58:05
Speaker 2: is accused of purposefully causing harm to her son having
58:09
Speaker 2: Munchausens by proxy.
58:11
Speaker 1: Wow. And when you're hearing her defense, you know they're
58:14
Speaker 1: saying things like, well, there's a doctor at this Texas
58:17
Speaker 1: hospital who is a specialist in Munchausens, and so what
58:21
Speaker 1: does that mean for the amount of people who are
58:24
Speaker 1: being diagnosed with it there?
58:26
Speaker 2: And how does why is it geographically a higher percentage
58:31
Speaker 2: you know in this area? Well, because they're specialists, and
58:34
Speaker 2: you're really you really start thinking about that. One thing
58:36
Speaker 2: I wish we had with this show is follow up episodes.
58:40
Speaker 2: You know, I was particularly interested in her episode because
58:44
Speaker 2: I want to know, like, after her trial happens, what
58:49
Speaker 2: is the result for her child? Does he become healthier?
58:53
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't. I haven't seen any follow up
58:55
Speaker 2: to it. But it's an interesting show, and I think
58:58
Speaker 2: a perspective you don't often get.
59:00
Speaker 1: I love that. That sounds really good. I also love
59:02
Speaker 1: shows that take you through a case or a trial
59:07
Speaker 1: in detail. I think that's so interesting.
59:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like it happens slow, but it happens fast
59:12
Speaker 2: aause you're watching the clock on your own freedom while
59:15
Speaker 2: it can sometimes be years, your life is sort of
59:18
Speaker 2: in the balance.
59:19
Speaker 1: And yeah, go watch it. I will. What a great recommendation. Well,
59:24
Speaker 1: that concludes our first episode of The Knife off Record.
59:27
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.
59:28
Speaker 2: We'll be back next week. If you have a story
59:33
Speaker 2: for us, we would love to hear it. Our email
59:35
Speaker 2: is The Knife at exactly rightmedia dot com, or you
59:38
Speaker 2: can follow us on Instagram at the Knife Podcast or
59:40
Speaker 2: a Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.
59:42
Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
59:45
Speaker 1: by me Hannah Smith and me Patia Eaton.
59:48
Speaker 2: Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi.
59:51
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel. Our associate producer
59:55
Speaker 1: is Christina Chamberlain. Our theme music is by Birds in
59:58
Speaker 1: the Airport Artwork five and sl Black. Executive produced by
1:00:01
Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.