Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Murder Suspect Bryan Kohberger Stalks Victims on Instagram?

Transcript

Murder Suspect Bryan Kohberger Stalks Victims on Instagram? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Finally have we found the link between Brian Coburger and
0:11
Speaker 1: his four murder victims. According to police, of course, the
0:17
Speaker 1: state never has to prove motive, but any jury would
0:21
Speaker 1: wonder why would he target people he had never met
0:26
Speaker 1: or had he I mean, see Grace, this is crime Stories.
0:30
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation
0:32
Speaker 1: in Serious m one eleven. First of all, take a
0:35
Speaker 1: listen to our friends at Fox thirteen Seattle. David Rose
0:38
Speaker 1: actually asked a retired Seattle police detective about why investigators
0:42
Speaker 1: have not revealed a possible connection between him and the victims.
0:46
Speaker 1: You never have to know why it happened. You just
0:49
Speaker 1: have to show that it happened. I mean, everybody wants
0:52
Speaker 1: to know why and the link between this guy and
0:55
Speaker 1: the victims, and maybe they'll come out in the future,
0:57
Speaker 1: but it's not necessary for a successful p Well, he's
1:01
Speaker 1: absolutely correct about that. I've got an all star panel
1:05
Speaker 1: to break down what we know right now. But before
1:08
Speaker 1: I go to Fox Senior correspondent Laura Ingle let me
1:12
Speaker 1: hit Dell Carson, high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville, and
1:16
Speaker 1: weren't report it to me. It's a former fed with
1:17
Speaker 1: the FBI, former cop in Miami Dade, certainly no lack
1:21
Speaker 1: of business there. You can find him at Dell Carson
1:27
Speaker 1: dot com. Dell. The state never has to prove the
1:31
Speaker 1: motive ever under the law. But I always try to
1:34
Speaker 1: give the jury a motive or some sort of a
1:38
Speaker 1: connection between the victim and the defendant, because they're looking
1:42
Speaker 1: for that. And if you don't give it to them.
1:45
Speaker 1: I don't mean just anything you can dig up. I
1:47
Speaker 1: mean the motive, the connection. They could go back to
1:51
Speaker 1: the jurymoan and think, wow, you know what, there's a
1:54
Speaker 1: lot of forensic governants, but he never even met these people.
1:57
Speaker 1: There's got to be another way to explain why his
1:59
Speaker 1: DNA on the knife sheath. If you don't give them
2:02
Speaker 1: a motive or nexus, you're going to have a problem
2:05
Speaker 1: come Verdictime, Well, that's absolutely the right, Nancy. You're so right.
2:10
Speaker 1: The idea that humans and a jury panel can convict
2:14
Speaker 1: somebody just based on circumstantial evidence, which we've seen put
2:18
Speaker 1: together in the arrest affidavit is very difficult for the
2:22
Speaker 1: prosecution and it's one of the ways the defense attorneys
2:25
Speaker 1: poke holes in that kind of circumstantial case. All you
2:30
Speaker 1: have to do is a defense attorney is present reasonable doubt,
2:35
Speaker 1: such as you know Sydney sitting here at the studio
2:40
Speaker 1: hadn't never even met Dale Carson before her finger prance
2:44
Speaker 1: turn up at the murder scene. Hey, maybe she was
2:47
Speaker 1: just there for a party earlier a little chip and
2:49
Speaker 1: dip went down. That doesn't mean she's the killer. Well,
2:52
Speaker 1: of course she is the killer, but one jerar could
2:55
Speaker 1: just be the fly in the ointment if you don't
2:58
Speaker 1: give a motive. But again, let me reiterate, state never
3:02
Speaker 1: has to prove motive. But do we finally have a
3:07
Speaker 1: link between Brian Coburger, the PhD hopeful in criminology, and
3:14
Speaker 1: the four and I can only describe them as a
3:17
Speaker 1: beautiful young Idaho University students Take a listen now to
3:22
Speaker 1: our friend Dave Matt at crime online dot com. Just
3:26
Speaker 1: two weeks before four University of Idaho students were murdered
3:29
Speaker 1: last November, Brian Coburger sent a series of messages to
3:33
Speaker 1: one of the victims on Instagram. An investigator close to
3:36
Speaker 1: the case tells people in late October, an account authorities
3:39
Speaker 1: believe belonged to Brian Coburger sent a greeting to one
3:42
Speaker 1: of the female victims, and when he didn't get a reply.
3:45
Speaker 1: He sent several more messages to her. The source said
3:49
Speaker 1: he slid into one of the girl's DMS several times,
3:52
Speaker 1: but she didn't respond. Basically, it was just him saying, hey,
3:56
Speaker 1: how are you? But he did it again and again
3:59
Speaker 1: and again and never got a reply. Straight out to
4:03
Speaker 1: Laura Ingle joining me, Laura, it sure is an honor
4:06
Speaker 1: and privilege to have you with us here today on
4:07
Speaker 1: crime stories. Laura Ingles, Senior correspondent, Fox News Channel. Here's
4:11
Speaker 1: the irony. Laura Angle, the girl or girls or even Ethan,
4:17
Speaker 1: but I think it was one of the girls may
4:19
Speaker 1: have never known that Koburger was dming them, which is
4:24
Speaker 1: I actually got a question less line on Twitter. What
4:27
Speaker 1: is a DM. It's a direct message and that means
4:31
Speaker 1: that you can if you post something on Insta, everybody
4:35
Speaker 1: that follows you is going to see it, but you
4:38
Speaker 1: can direct message. Let's just say I have Laura Ingles Insta,
4:43
Speaker 1: I can DM her, direct message her and everybody else
4:47
Speaker 1: in the world doesn't see it. So Laura Ingle, the
4:51
Speaker 1: girl or girls may not have even seen his messages,
4:54
Speaker 1: his barrage of messages. That's correct, and of course the
4:58
Speaker 1: news coming to us from a stor that spoke to
5:01
Speaker 1: People magazine about this. But you can only imagine that
5:04
Speaker 1: we are knowing this now because the phone was handed
5:08
Speaker 1: over the parents. I think have looked through the phone.
5:11
Speaker 1: I don't know the chain of custody that her phone
5:16
Speaker 1: went through, but it has been revealed now that it
5:19
Speaker 1: looks like there was a message coming from somebody that
5:21
Speaker 1: appeared to be Brian Coburger. You're right, the direct message thing.
5:24
Speaker 1: It happens to me. I'm I have an Instagram of
5:27
Speaker 1: public one Laura Ingle TV, and if somebody messages me
5:30
Speaker 1: from a post that I make or great report last
5:33
Speaker 1: night or what you know, something, I will see it.
5:36
Speaker 1: If I'm not following that person, it'll go to this
5:38
Speaker 1: kind of envelope that I forget about. So there's sometimes
5:43
Speaker 1: I'll go, oh, yeah, I need to look at that.
5:44
Speaker 1: You know, you need to accept the messages, and there'll
5:47
Speaker 1: be a long string of you know, random stranger saying
5:50
Speaker 1: things and sometimes I don't see it, and then you
5:52
Speaker 1: can either accept that message, you can delete that message.
5:56
Speaker 1: Sometimes they're creepy messages, as we all know being on Instagram.
5:59
Speaker 1: So there is a very big chance that she or
6:03
Speaker 1: he whichever victims was didn't see those messages because there
6:07
Speaker 1: wasn't a reply. According to the source. I've got so
6:10
Speaker 1: many awesome experts. Did you just hear everything? Laura Angle
6:13
Speaker 1: just said she knows every minute detail of this case
6:17
Speaker 1: and she can deliver it in a way that it
6:20
Speaker 1: all makes sense. Before I go out to digital forensics
6:25
Speaker 1: examiner Giovanni Massucchi Cheryl McCollum, Laura Ingle says something that
6:30
Speaker 1: really perts my ears up, and that while she mentioned
6:34
Speaker 1: chain of custody, the phone guys with me. Cheryl McCollum
6:38
Speaker 1: a forensics expert and found her of the Cold Case
6:40
Speaker 1: Research Institute. You can find her at Coldcase crimes dot org. Oh,
6:45
Speaker 1: and she's a star of a hit new series. It's
6:47
Speaker 1: a podcast called Zone seven. Can you hurry up with
6:51
Speaker 1: some more podcast? Cheryl? This once a week business is
6:54
Speaker 1: not doing it for me anymore, Cheryl. Chain of custody
6:57
Speaker 1: that Laura Ingle just said, really, you know, with all
7:02
Speaker 1: other evidence, you have to have a chain of custody.
7:05
Speaker 1: Here's a good example, Cheryl McCollum, I was prosecuting a
7:08
Speaker 1: serial killer and I could get him for sure on
7:11
Speaker 1: one murder of a Jane Doe so I went for that.
7:16
Speaker 1: I left everything else out because it wasn't as strong,
7:20
Speaker 1: and I didn't want to dilute my strong murder case
7:23
Speaker 1: with some very weak evidence in other victims' cases. So
7:27
Speaker 1: I went forward and I had an awesome homicide detective. Well,
7:33
Speaker 1: listen to this. He gets the DNA from the defendant,
7:37
Speaker 1: takes to the crime lab, and then listen to this.
7:41
Speaker 1: You might need to sit down everybody about I don't know.
7:44
Speaker 1: Three weeks before trial, I get a call from the
7:48
Speaker 1: crime lab that says, who brought this over? It's not signed?
7:53
Speaker 1: Oh oh, I just gave myself chills, which means he
7:57
Speaker 1: did everything right, but he forgot to put the He
8:00
Speaker 1: some evidence tape over it and signed his name in
8:03
Speaker 1: the date and time, which means it broke the chain.
8:07
Speaker 1: The chain of custom means if you don't have every
8:10
Speaker 1: minute accounted for the piece of evidence from the time
8:13
Speaker 1: police find it till the time it's presented to a jury,
8:16
Speaker 1: then the chain has been broken and it will not
8:19
Speaker 1: come into evidence. It can't be corroborated. So this is
8:23
Speaker 1: what I did. Just the end of that story, I
8:25
Speaker 1: still have time under discovery. I ran and you recall
8:29
Speaker 1: my personal detective Ernest Denise Smith when you ran. We
8:34
Speaker 1: spent in that old County issue Crown Victoria to the
8:38
Speaker 1: Fuller County jail. I had the defendant pulled out. I
8:43
Speaker 1: stared at him the entire time through a glass wall,
8:46
Speaker 1: and I watched the nurse take his DNA. I watched
8:52
Speaker 1: her put that in a sealed envelope. Who she gave
8:54
Speaker 1: it to Ernest, He signed it. He came and got
8:57
Speaker 1: in the car with me. Of course, we always fought
9:00
Speaker 1: over who's going to drive. I let him drive, because
9:03
Speaker 1: you know how men are control freaks. I let them
9:06
Speaker 1: drive to the crime lab. We walked it in together,
9:09
Speaker 1: and we handed it not just to the receptionist, who's awesome,
9:14
Speaker 1: but to the scientist. We redid the DNA on a
9:18
Speaker 1: rush order in time to hand it over to the
9:21
Speaker 1: defense prior to trial, just in the nick of time. Oh,
9:24
Speaker 1: dear Lord in Heaven, can you even imagine, Cheryl? So no,
9:29
Speaker 1: That's why I know it makes me very anxious to
9:34
Speaker 1: even tell that story. But Laura Ingle said, chain of
9:38
Speaker 1: custody on the phone. But with a phone, Cheryl, do
9:42
Speaker 1: we need the actual phone or can we go into
9:45
Speaker 1: the iCloud? Well, it's gonna be both. I mean, you've
9:48
Speaker 1: got a couple of things going on here. The phone
9:51
Speaker 1: is going to be paramount for me as far as
9:56
Speaker 1: his phone. Let's start with the accused first, his searches,
10:01
Speaker 1: his pains, and who he communicated with, whether or not
10:07
Speaker 1: they communicated back, because we're not talking about what they knew.
10:10
Speaker 1: We're talking about what he knew and what he did. Then,
10:13
Speaker 1: when you've got the victims phones again, you're going to
10:16
Speaker 1: be able to see any communication between them. And I
10:19
Speaker 1: want to start even if there is a stalker, because
10:23
Speaker 1: remember Kaylee told people she had a stalker. Her daddy
10:27
Speaker 1: said she had a stalker. The guy the vague store
10:30
Speaker 1: said they were talking about her having a stalker. So
10:32
Speaker 1: did she ever text that to anybody? Did she ever say, hey, Mattie,
10:37
Speaker 1: y'all come here, this guy's here again, or I feel
10:39
Speaker 1: like I'm being just try to get the bus back
10:42
Speaker 1: in the middle of the road. Cheryl McCollum say, you
10:45
Speaker 1: have so much information, and that beautiful head of yours
10:52
Speaker 1: nice way of saying, I'm talking about him dming one
10:56
Speaker 1: or more of the four victims, and they're gonna be
10:59
Speaker 1: able to tell that from that angle, said China custody.
11:02
Speaker 1: Giovanni Massuchi, Senior Digital forensic Examiner, Giovanni, thank you for
11:08
Speaker 1: being with us. Giovanni, I like Cheryl, I want to
11:12
Speaker 1: hand a phone over to the expert you in court
11:17
Speaker 1: and say tell me everything. But what if the chain
11:21
Speaker 1: has been broken China custody? Can't you pull everything down
11:25
Speaker 1: from the iCloud? Not everything? I want to have the
11:28
Speaker 1: actual phone. Okay, that's not at all what I wanted
11:30
Speaker 1: you to say, but go ahead. I'm sitting down and
11:32
Speaker 1: may need to lay down from the US. Go ahead, Giovanni. Okay,
11:35
Speaker 1: you can pull a lot of data. It depends what's
11:37
Speaker 1: being backed up off the phone. So that's where the
11:40
Speaker 1: issue is because not everybody puts everything in NYE cloud.
11:43
Speaker 1: You know, I never select anything. I just assume everything's
11:46
Speaker 1: going to an iCloud. No, no, there's some default. But
11:50
Speaker 1: if you want additional data like your social media, if
11:54
Speaker 1: you want text message to any type of communications phone
11:57
Speaker 1: data going to be backed up, basically have to click
12:01
Speaker 1: that in there under your general section under services. But
12:05
Speaker 1: um yeah, it doesn't all go up there. So you
12:08
Speaker 1: know the befit have the actual phone now having the
12:12
Speaker 1: phone of the victims The tools now are so advanced
12:17
Speaker 1: and they can incorporate they can adjust all these phones
12:20
Speaker 1: at once into a digital intelligence of solution and we'll
12:25
Speaker 1: alude they will quarterly and grab. Okay, yeah, you're way
12:29
Speaker 1: way I need a war room for this. Okay, my
12:33
Speaker 1: little row charts are now. Just slow down just a
12:35
Speaker 1: little bit, go back with three sentences? What with me,
12:39
Speaker 1: Giovanni Massuchi And it sounds like Laura Angele and Cheryl
12:42
Speaker 1: McCollum are correct. We are gonna need the actual phone.
12:47
Speaker 1: We're gonna have to show the chain, and we're gonna
12:51
Speaker 1: have to if we can't show the China custody, we're
12:53
Speaker 1: gonna have to show that those dms were sent before
12:56
Speaker 1: the parents got the phone something like that. Okay, yeah, correct,
13:01
Speaker 1: And so they can pull that data from the phone.
13:04
Speaker 1: The frontic tools are sophisticated up now that they can
13:07
Speaker 1: pull the Instagram data from the victim and then correlate
13:11
Speaker 1: it with them the defendant, And so that's that's going
13:15
Speaker 1: to be important. But I'm sure they're withholding other data
13:18
Speaker 1: as well. What do you mean by that? You can't
13:20
Speaker 1: just drop a little bomb like that on me? You're sure?
13:24
Speaker 1: And therewithholding other data as well. What do you mean
13:28
Speaker 1: by that? You know, I consult the federal government on forensics,
13:33
Speaker 1: and so you know, they can't reveal all their cards yet.
13:36
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's because in discovery that will all come
13:38
Speaker 1: out because the defense has the right to get, um,
13:42
Speaker 1: whatever's being discovered, especially in how they're asking for it
13:46
Speaker 1: and so um. You know, typically as they're putting a
13:50
Speaker 1: case together, they're going to have data that they'll be
13:54
Speaker 1: able to have to share eventually. But I'm sure there's
13:57
Speaker 1: more data that they're compiling off both the victims and
14:01
Speaker 1: correlating and also off the defended stones And it's a broadcast.
14:05
Speaker 1: It is a process, and you've got to handle hand
14:08
Speaker 1: everything over to the defense. Under a seminal US Supreme
14:13
Speaker 1: Court case Brady versus Maryland, I went all the way
14:18
Speaker 1: to the the Supreme Court, and bottom line, you have to
14:21
Speaker 1: hand over scientific evidence, all of it good or bad
14:26
Speaker 1: for the state. That includes DNA, fingerprints, fiber analysis, you
14:30
Speaker 1: name it, plus electronics, anything that has to be analyzed
14:36
Speaker 1: by a scientist or a technician, fingerprints, the whole shebet,
14:40
Speaker 1: hair evidence, mitochondrial blah blah blah. All has to be
14:44
Speaker 1: handed over all defended statements, all the witnesses you're going
14:48
Speaker 1: to bring on, and possibly a summary of their testimony.
14:51
Speaker 1: Everything you've gotten, it is exculpatory, has to be handed
14:55
Speaker 1: over ahead of time. You might as well just give
14:58
Speaker 1: the defense the whole file so it can never be
15:01
Speaker 1: said you withheld anything crime stories with Nancy Grace. So, guys,
15:22
Speaker 1: if if this is true the reports that he had
15:25
Speaker 1: been DM in direct messaging one or more of the
15:29
Speaker 1: four victims. Did he know that this weekend was the
15:35
Speaker 1: weekend that Kelly Gonsolvis was coming back to the house.
15:39
Speaker 1: She had already moved out, but she had a new
15:42
Speaker 1: vehicle and she wanted to come back, go to a
15:45
Speaker 1: party that was going to be held that weekend, and
15:47
Speaker 1: show her best friend Maddie her new car. They've been
15:51
Speaker 1: best friend stance sixth grade. Was he following her online?
15:55
Speaker 1: Did he see that she was coming back home? Or
15:59
Speaker 1: had this day the date of the martyr has been
16:01
Speaker 1: long preplanned by Brian Coburger Take a listen again to
16:05
Speaker 1: our friend Dave matt acrime online dot com. Kayley Gonzolvez
16:09
Speaker 1: had already moved out of the home where she and
16:11
Speaker 1: three other students were brutally murdered, but tragically returned to
16:14
Speaker 1: Moscow to visit her best friend that weekend. Kayley's parents
16:18
Speaker 1: said that the twenty one year old had recently left
16:20
Speaker 1: the student rental property on King Rhode, Moscow ahead of
16:23
Speaker 1: her upcoming graduation. That December, Anna moved to Austin, Texas
16:26
Speaker 1: for a new job at a tech firm. On the
16:28
Speaker 1: weekend of November twelfth, she decided to go back to
16:31
Speaker 1: the college town to visit her best friend and show
16:33
Speaker 1: Maddie the range Rover she had saved up four and bought.
16:36
Speaker 1: The two young women had been inseparable since meeting in
16:39
Speaker 1: the sixth grade. They died together in the same bed
16:43
Speaker 1: on the same night. Oh my hand away, He just
16:46
Speaker 1: said that. So what do you think, Laura Angel wasn't
16:49
Speaker 1: a matter of wrong play strong time somehow, I don't
16:52
Speaker 1: think so. I think that he had planned this date
16:56
Speaker 1: for a long time. I mean, there's obviously no way
16:58
Speaker 1: to know exactly, but the fact that she was not
17:01
Speaker 1: supposed to be there, she was obviously all of the
17:05
Speaker 1: victims where were very public with their movements, plans, announcements,
17:10
Speaker 1: partying on their instagrams, so one could you know theorize
17:15
Speaker 1: that Brian Coburger might have known that she had left,
17:18
Speaker 1: but you know, is it fair to say that he
17:21
Speaker 1: would know that she was coming back. I don't know
17:23
Speaker 1: if there was a post because I don't know if
17:25
Speaker 1: her accounts them. There seems to be a mimicked account
17:28
Speaker 1: now online of Instagram with her, but I don't know
17:31
Speaker 1: that she ever wrote I'm going back to Moscow this
17:34
Speaker 1: weekend to show my best friend in the car. I
17:36
Speaker 1: don't know if there was that kind of detail, but
17:39
Speaker 1: it could be wrong place, wrong time, or he spotted
17:43
Speaker 1: her that night out at the Corner Club and this
17:46
Speaker 1: is the night I'm going to do it, And you know,
17:48
Speaker 1: we just don't know that part. But it is really
17:52
Speaker 1: interesting to think about what was going on in that house.
17:55
Speaker 1: And another thing I want to bring up, and I
17:56
Speaker 1: want to kick this around with everybody here, that there
18:00
Speaker 1: have been specials, right, we all watch each other, we
18:03
Speaker 1: all watch other networks and get tidbits, like you're playing
18:06
Speaker 1: of these clips. I watched one of the long form
18:09
Speaker 1: specials this last weekend, and I went back and I
18:12
Speaker 1: watched a part of it three times last night to
18:14
Speaker 1: make sure I heard it correctly. There was a network
18:17
Speaker 1: that reported that there was a party on Friday night
18:20
Speaker 1: at that house, that there was a party that went
18:23
Speaker 1: from Friday night into Saturday morning, and that there were reported,
18:28
Speaker 1: according to some kids, maybe up to one hundred and
18:31
Speaker 1: fifty people in that house the night before the murders.
18:34
Speaker 1: I don't know that I've heard that before, and I
18:36
Speaker 1: don't know if that's correct. Those are what sources had
18:38
Speaker 1: told NBC. I'm wondering if anybody because that Japan well
18:43
Speaker 1: a little if it's true. On social media, if you
18:47
Speaker 1: have friends, they're going to discuss who might show up
18:49
Speaker 1: and not might not show up. And certainly, if you're
18:53
Speaker 1: monitoring the social media connections to these individuals, you're likely
18:57
Speaker 1: to generate a whole bunch of intelligence. I would have
19:00
Speaker 1: loved to have that when I was an FBI agent,
19:03
Speaker 1: so that I can listen and see what people are doing.
19:05
Speaker 1: We had to interview hundreds of people to develop that
19:08
Speaker 1: same body of information that now is available in an
19:12
Speaker 1: instant on the Internet. Straight out to Chris mcdutna joining me,
19:16
Speaker 1: Director the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective. I found
19:20
Speaker 1: him on YouTube. He's a host of the Interview Room.
19:25
Speaker 1: Chris has combed over the area surrounding the crime scene
19:29
Speaker 1: with the fine tooth. Come Chris, jump in. Tell me
19:33
Speaker 1: what you think about what you're hearing, you know, Nancy,
19:35
Speaker 1: I think rather than us focusing as we have been
19:40
Speaker 1: trying to figure out, not necessarily us, but everybody on
19:44
Speaker 1: this case, what a motive is, I think we're overlooking
19:47
Speaker 1: what is signature ish. And here's what I mean by that.
19:52
Speaker 1: The forensical or the forensic digital footprint that this guy
19:56
Speaker 1: is leaving is revealing a great deal about his personality.
20:01
Speaker 1: And you want us take this information and then look
20:06
Speaker 1: back as to what this guy has been doing pre engining.
20:12
Speaker 1: I do believe it will emerge that this guy has
20:15
Speaker 1: had many weird encounters with women and probably has underlining fetishes,
20:21
Speaker 1: including potentially a variety of the things that he's engaged
20:26
Speaker 1: in over the years. Chris mcdonnald, I don't think there's
20:29
Speaker 1: any way you could be more correct, And that is
20:33
Speaker 1: why we have doctor Bethany Marshall, the only person on
20:37
Speaker 1: the panelment hasn't weighed in yet, but I was saving
20:40
Speaker 1: her for something special. Doctor Bethany, get ready take us
20:45
Speaker 1: to what our friends at ABC say. The man accused
20:49
Speaker 1: of murdering four University of Idaho students reportedly made chilling
20:52
Speaker 1: comments about his mental health as a teenager. A person
20:57
Speaker 1: who knows Brian Koberger tells ABC News he is extremely confident.
21:02
Speaker 1: Coburger is the author of post in a forum for
21:04
Speaker 1: people battling visual snow syndrome. Visual Snow is a rare
21:08
Speaker 1: disorder that affects sight. Doctors say patients often see what
21:11
Speaker 1: looks like TV static in their vision. Headaches and ringing
21:15
Speaker 1: in the ears is another side effect, along with depression
21:18
Speaker 1: and anxiety. Some patients might notice this coming on after
21:22
Speaker 1: an event like a head injury or a really severe
21:25
Speaker 1: infection or illness, so it's not just the visual snow syndrome.
21:31
Speaker 1: Chat forum Coburger participated in There's something Else, Doctor Bethany,
21:37
Speaker 1: I'm coming at you with both guns of blazing. Take
21:41
Speaker 1: a listen to this. New York Times reporter Nicholas Buggle
21:45
Speaker 1: borrows on Our Friends over at CNN. It begins with
21:49
Speaker 1: these posts on a forum website when he's about sixteen
21:53
Speaker 1: years old, and he's talking about feeling a range of
21:59
Speaker 1: men sole health conditions or problems with his life. He
22:02
Speaker 1: talks about not being able to feel emotions feeling like
22:06
Speaker 1: he's detached from the world, and that when he hugs
22:08
Speaker 1: his own family, he sees nothing. He also described looking
22:13
Speaker 1: at his life and going through the emotions like it's
22:15
Speaker 1: a video game, and he's really hard on himself, saying
22:19
Speaker 1: he feels worthless, that he's a jerk to people in
22:22
Speaker 1: his life and doesn't feel bad about it afterwards. Wow,
22:26
Speaker 1: I've got some quotes of what this guy posted, and
22:30
Speaker 1: they are listen to this Bethany. I feel like an
22:33
Speaker 1: organic sack of meat. Remember he's a rabid vegan. I
22:38
Speaker 1: feel like an organic sack of meat with no self worth,
22:42
Speaker 1: he allegedly wrote on tap talk a mental health for him,
22:46
Speaker 1: and that was at age sixteen. As I hug my family,
22:49
Speaker 1: I look in their faces, I see nothing. It's like
22:52
Speaker 1: I'm looking at a video game but less. Nothing I
22:55
Speaker 1: do is enjoyable. I'm blank. I have no opinion, I
22:59
Speaker 1: have no emotion. Nothing. Can you relate well? No, And
23:03
Speaker 1: another he boasted he could do whatever I want with
23:07
Speaker 1: little remorse. Also, I only used heroin when I was
23:11
Speaker 1: in a deep suicidal state. Hit it. This backs up
23:17
Speaker 1: and supports what we know about sociopaths. So brain scans
23:22
Speaker 1: of sociopaths reveal that the part of the brain that
23:26
Speaker 1: is responsible for remorse, for attachment, for love, for excitement,
23:31
Speaker 1: these parts of the brain do not light up on
23:34
Speaker 1: brain scans. In fact, even the part of the brain
23:38
Speaker 1: that's responsible for impulse control, the prefrontal cortex, that there's
23:42
Speaker 1: bundling of white material in that part of the brain,
23:45
Speaker 1: meaning it's not very active. So this is a wonderful
23:49
Speaker 1: opportunity to see and to hear a sociopath right about
23:54
Speaker 1: what we already know from brain scans. Now, Nancy, you
23:57
Speaker 1: and I have talked many times about the fact that
24:00
Speaker 1: sociopaths are empty, They have low levels of excitement, they
24:05
Speaker 1: have internal deadness, and that's why they're prone to this
24:08
Speaker 1: thrill seeking behavior. Now there's this other post that really
24:13
Speaker 1: grabbed my attention. He explains. He writes, I'm no longer
24:17
Speaker 1: the healthy, blonde haired boy with blue eyes, and in
24:21
Speaker 1: a few years something about I have darker hair and
24:25
Speaker 1: darker eyes, half the body weight. So he's writing about
24:28
Speaker 1: his perception of himself, and it reminds me of a
24:31
Speaker 1: patient I saw many years ago who was a pedophile.
24:34
Speaker 1: He was later caught, obviously, then taken out of my practice.
24:38
Speaker 1: But he was what we called auto erotic, and that
24:42
Speaker 1: means that his sexual interest was directed back against himself.
24:47
Speaker 1: He would watch himself masturbate in the mirror, and he
24:51
Speaker 1: would cut his hair in the mirror. He would rub
24:53
Speaker 1: oil on himself in the mirror, so that sexual excitement
24:57
Speaker 1: was generated by thinking about as much as I would
25:01
Speaker 1: like to hear more about your patient rubbing oil on himself.
25:06
Speaker 1: I don't know how he got to that point. Well,
25:09
Speaker 1: it's just these self referential texts are weird. I'm no
25:13
Speaker 1: longer the healthy, blonde haired boy with blue eyes I had.
25:16
Speaker 1: As you extrapolite from that to your pedophile client rubbing
25:20
Speaker 1: oil on himself. You know what? Don't need to know that?
25:22
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friends at ABC. In one
25:26
Speaker 1: post in twenty eleven, when Koburger would have been seventeen
25:29
Speaker 1: years old, a question was posed to other people in
25:32
Speaker 1: the visual Snow forum, asking am I the only one
25:35
Speaker 1: who experiences depression, crazy thoughts, no emotion, the illusions of grandeur.
25:40
Speaker 1: The post ends saying he felt that he can do
25:43
Speaker 1: whatever I want with little remorse, and another post in
25:46
Speaker 1: the forum later that year, the same author writes, I
25:49
Speaker 1: simply don't want to live anymore. People say these are
25:52
Speaker 1: supposed to be the years I enjoy and cherish. Well,
25:55
Speaker 1: I can't say I will cherish these days. Okay, doctor Bethany.
25:58
Speaker 1: Without going back to your pedophile client rubbing oil on
26:01
Speaker 1: himself from the mirror, can you analyze that, Well, it's
26:04
Speaker 1: not fun to be a sociopath. We think of them
26:06
Speaker 1: as being driven by this lura need for excitement, and
26:09
Speaker 1: they love all the stocking. And yes there is fetishized
26:12
Speaker 1: sexual interest in the stocking. But he describes being sociopathic
26:16
Speaker 1: is extremely disturbing. He's removed from the world. He's not
26:19
Speaker 1: attached to other people. So wheat Nancy. We're wired for attachment.
26:23
Speaker 1: That's how we survived the species. People who are in
26:26
Speaker 1: good mental healthcare, they love, they have remorse. They attached
26:30
Speaker 1: and he finds its extremely disturbing to not be attached.
26:34
Speaker 1: And so let's think about his attachment is weird attachment
26:38
Speaker 1: to these students and especially to Kaylee. All it takes
26:42
Speaker 1: is a tiny sliver of an interaction to form an
26:48
Speaker 1: obsession between the stoker and a victim that come from
26:52
Speaker 1: you or Kyberger sending the DMS alright messages but never
26:57
Speaker 1: getting every spot, just the thrill of sending them and
27:00
Speaker 1: the anger or the frustration of no response. Is that
27:03
Speaker 1: enough of an interaction? Yeah, it's both theoretical. What I
27:06
Speaker 1: know about stalkers and what we're beginning to see is
27:09
Speaker 1: that she didn't even respond to him, and all those
27:11
Speaker 1: images out there, it could have just been seeing one
27:14
Speaker 1: beautiful image. Look, we are attached to these victims by
27:18
Speaker 1: looking at the images and reading the story because we're
27:20
Speaker 1: wired for attachment. He attached just by like maybe seeing
27:25
Speaker 1: even just a piece of clothing or something. Now, remember
27:28
Speaker 1: what I've said about stalkers so many times on your show,
27:33
Speaker 1: that they had the fantasy or the delusion that there's
27:36
Speaker 1: a complete attachment system between them and the victim. Right, yes,
27:40
Speaker 1: even though there is none. So every time he was
27:43
Speaker 1: not responded to, the rejection deepened and deepened and deepened,
27:48
Speaker 1: along with the rage and the desire to seek vengeance
27:51
Speaker 1: or to punish her for not responding to him. If
27:54
Speaker 1: Laura Ingle and I just wanted to as we're talking
27:57
Speaker 1: about these writings and the things that he wrote that
27:59
Speaker 1: are so traumatic, if true, this is him. Remember he
28:03
Speaker 1: had two older sisters, Amanda and Melissa. Right, we grew
28:08
Speaker 1: up with. Amanda is a licensed counselor, and she is
28:12
Speaker 1: a registered behavioral technician. Melissa works in mental health. She's
28:17
Speaker 1: a mental health therapist in New Jersey working in anxiety,
28:21
Speaker 1: trauma WorkStress, emotion regulation, and career counseling. So those are
28:25
Speaker 1: his two siblings. And I just wanted to point that
28:27
Speaker 1: out because every time I hear these words that he
28:30
Speaker 1: wrote allegedly, I keep thinking about, you know, whenever we
28:34
Speaker 1: tell these stories and we talk about these crimes. Oh,
28:37
Speaker 1: only somebody knew if they monitored him. And I keep
28:40
Speaker 1: thinking about the sisters. It's not their fault, of course,
28:42
Speaker 1: but it's just interesting that that's what they do. It
28:46
Speaker 1: really is. I wonder if he had heard any of
28:48
Speaker 1: that lingo, the psychological lingo from the sisters describing their
28:53
Speaker 1: studies or their jobs. Guys, listen now to our friend
28:57
Speaker 1: Moa Lingy at GM. Newly uncovered social media posts painting
29:01
Speaker 1: a clearer picture of who Brian Koburger was as a
29:04
Speaker 1: teen years before he was charged with killing four University
29:08
Speaker 1: of Idaho college students. The New York Times first reporting
29:11
Speaker 1: on posts believed to be written by Koburger between two
29:14
Speaker 1: thousand and nine and two twelve, where he shared struggles
29:17
Speaker 1: with mental health and thoughts of suicide. Koburger writing in
29:21
Speaker 1: two eleven, as I hug my family, I look into
29:24
Speaker 1: their faces, I see nothing. It is like I'm looking
29:26
Speaker 1: at a video game, but less. Koburger also writing he
29:30
Speaker 1: experienced depression, a constant thought of suicide, crazy thoughts and
29:34
Speaker 1: delusions of grander, saying, I feel no emotion, and along
29:37
Speaker 1: with the depersonalization, I can say and do whatever I
29:41
Speaker 1: want with little remorse. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Your
30:00
Speaker 1: story back out to Giovanni Massuchi, Senior digital forensic Examiner. Okay, Giovanni, Yes,
30:08
Speaker 1: I've got a ton of things he allegedly posted, comments
30:12
Speaker 1: he made They are really chilling in light of the
30:15
Speaker 1: four murders. But how can I corroborate that this is
30:20
Speaker 1: actually him posting these things? Well, they're going to do.
30:24
Speaker 1: They're going to requests to these sites, these social media sites,
30:27
Speaker 1: to grab that data. Now, depending on if how currenty
30:32
Speaker 1: the social media posts work. They're all sore when he
30:37
Speaker 1: was sixteen. But a lot of these sites they do
30:40
Speaker 1: back up the data and so law enforcement can request this.
30:44
Speaker 1: People don't realize it, but they do back up the
30:46
Speaker 1: data and why does that show your ipay address, the
30:49
Speaker 1: person that was sending them, which computer they were using,
30:53
Speaker 1: email address that attached to it, any information that's required
30:57
Speaker 1: by that social media site to set up that account,
31:00
Speaker 1: which could have the right back to bohand and so
31:03
Speaker 1: that would correlate information that way, but also on anything
31:09
Speaker 1: that he's posted as well up to current as wall.
31:11
Speaker 1: But I'm the old old data. They can pull that
31:14
Speaker 1: data and corroborate it with Nancy. Can I jump in?
31:17
Speaker 1: You mentioned war room a second ago, and you know
31:20
Speaker 1: that's how you and I would have worked this case.
31:22
Speaker 1: We would put this up on the wall. And one
31:24
Speaker 1: thing that I would want to know is his phone
31:27
Speaker 1: pings and how that correlates with their social media post specifically, now,
31:33
Speaker 1: I would want to know when he made these you know,
31:37
Speaker 1: instant messages, if it's him, when he got no response,
31:41
Speaker 1: did he take a drive over to eleven twenty two
31:44
Speaker 1: King Road, and again looking at his phone pings. The
31:47
Speaker 1: other things I would want to put up on the
31:49
Speaker 1: wall is what these people are saying. When Kaylee first
31:52
Speaker 1: mentioned she had a stalker when the vape store, you
31:56
Speaker 1: know manager when they went in there and she was
31:59
Speaker 1: talking about the you know stalker, right, I would want
32:01
Speaker 1: videotape from the Corner Club, the last place they were
32:06
Speaker 1: before going to the food truble. I agree, but I
32:08
Speaker 1: still contend that he had this plan for a very
32:11
Speaker 1: very long time, hence the at least twelve prior times
32:16
Speaker 1: he had been near the location. Now here's another thing.
32:19
Speaker 1: We're looking at all his deep dark secrets that he
32:21
Speaker 1: posted on chat forums, but he can appear to be
32:30
Speaker 1: somewhat normal. Take a list to our thirty three thirty five. Now,
32:34
Speaker 1: this is a neighbor who does not want to be identified.
32:38
Speaker 1: He does not want to go down in history as
32:40
Speaker 1: being friend of Bryan Coburger's. But this is also a
32:45
Speaker 1: neighbor that is married. And after the neighbor had tried
32:51
Speaker 1: to do a few things with Coburger at Coburger's father's
32:54
Speaker 1: assistant Van, Coburger's dad dropped moved Coburger too, Pullman nine
33:02
Speaker 1: miles from the murder scene. The father approached at least
33:05
Speaker 1: one neighbor and said, look, can you be his friend?
33:09
Speaker 1: He has a hard time meeting people, basically setting up
33:11
Speaker 1: a playdate for Coburger. That said the wife had a
33:16
Speaker 1: sixth sense and she said no more, it cannot come
33:19
Speaker 1: back to our place. Do not invite him for dinner,
33:24
Speaker 1: And when asked, she couldn't say why. She just didn't
33:30
Speaker 1: want him around. Now take a listen to this text
33:33
Speaker 1: Coburger sent to the friend. The last message I got
33:37
Speaker 1: he said Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family. And
33:40
Speaker 1: this was eleven days after Happy Thanksgiving, dating your family.
33:47
Speaker 1: So not only did he go straight back to school
33:49
Speaker 1: like nothing was wrong, he was texting neighbors Happy Thanksgiving
33:53
Speaker 1: as if everything were perfectly normal. But I want you
33:56
Speaker 1: to hear what criminology professor Birmingham City University David Wilson
34:02
Speaker 1: has to say in our cut three three seven. Criminology
34:05
Speaker 1: is it the cause or an effect? And it is
34:09
Speaker 1: simply not pathological to want to study criminal mind. That's
34:13
Speaker 1: what I do. It would be pathological to want to
34:17
Speaker 1: study the criminal mind to understand something about yourself, and
34:22
Speaker 1: that indeed is what is being argued in the probable
34:26
Speaker 1: cause affidavit that in relation to Brian Coberger, I've taught
34:31
Speaker 1: criminology students for about twenty five years and I would
34:34
Speaker 1: say a handful of them have creeped me out. Okay,
34:39
Speaker 1: I want you to hear more. I don't think it
34:41
Speaker 1: was really laid out that clearly in the probable cause
34:46
Speaker 1: for rest affidavit, but take a list to more in
34:50
Speaker 1: our cut three forty. Well, I kind of felt now
34:53
Speaker 1: this you might say, this is spurious, but because I
34:56
Speaker 1: know the person that's been accused of this had studied
35:01
Speaker 1: under Kathleine Ramsland, who studied the BTK a serial killer
35:06
Speaker 1: by the way, who are the background and criminal justice.
35:08
Speaker 1: So there's another serial killer that has a background and
35:11
Speaker 1: criminal justice. He kills a ten people in the nineteen seventies, eighties,
35:15
Speaker 1: and nineties, and guess the first target of that man's
35:18
Speaker 1: killing cycle was a group of four people, a family
35:22
Speaker 1: of four in a house that he had never previously
35:26
Speaker 1: had connections to. So there's a sense in which you've
35:29
Speaker 1: got some eerie echoes going on here. Jerry McCollum, isn't
35:32
Speaker 1: it true that Bryan Kroeberger also studied under Professor Ramsland? Yes? Absolutely,
35:38
Speaker 1: what do you know? I just know he was in
35:40
Speaker 1: several of her classes and studied under her, And you know,
35:43
Speaker 1: I'm certain that they had a working relationship of nothing else,
35:47
Speaker 1: because the level that he was at in the master's program,
35:50
Speaker 1: I mean, you get to know your students pretty well
35:53
Speaker 1: at that level. You know, they are writing all the time,
35:56
Speaker 1: they're researching all the time, they're discussing topics all the time.
36:00
Speaker 1: So he was there and studying into her, No question
36:04
Speaker 1: about it too. Laura Ingle, Senior correspondent, Fox Child. I've
36:07
Speaker 1: been asked by many people whether Kyberger was assessed with
36:11
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy, because they have a lot of similarities. What
36:17
Speaker 1: if anything do you know? You know there have been
36:19
Speaker 1: reports of that. Well, obviously we know that he had
36:22
Speaker 1: been studying what he had been studying for a very
36:25
Speaker 1: long time, twenty eight years old. In these studies, we
36:31
Speaker 1: have heard classmates say that there was some type of
36:35
Speaker 1: connection in the sense of him being interested in him.
36:38
Speaker 1: And we've heard, of course the studies of under that
36:41
Speaker 1: professor that you just mentioned. But in terms of him
36:45
Speaker 1: writing about having a connection with Ted Bundy and mimic him,
36:49
Speaker 1: you know, wanting to be like him or anything like that,
36:51
Speaker 1: I haven't heard anything like that, but I have heard
36:53
Speaker 1: reports that he was interested in those types of people. Nancy,
36:58
Speaker 1: if I could jump in about that, yes, okay, So
37:01
Speaker 1: Brian Koberger is playing at being human. He's pretending to
37:05
Speaker 1: be human. He's not human, he doesn't feel human. He
37:09
Speaker 1: uses the word depersonalized. He pulled that out of a
37:12
Speaker 1: textbook somewhere. He's sending, you know, happy things, getting messages
37:16
Speaker 1: to the neighbors who are clearly rejecting him. He's pretending
37:20
Speaker 1: to be sociable. People like this. They don't. I know.
37:24
Speaker 1: There's some report that said maybe he even had aspergers.
37:27
Speaker 1: So this inability to relate to others, I think just
37:31
Speaker 1: fueled the feeling of rejection and the rage he had.
37:35
Speaker 1: But if there was a connection to Ted Bundy, I
37:38
Speaker 1: would also think that he's trying to locate a sense
37:41
Speaker 1: of himself in the people around him, kind of like, oh,
37:45
Speaker 1: like like two year old at the fair? Am I
37:47
Speaker 1: like the clown? Am I like the monkey? I mean?
37:50
Speaker 1: Who am I most like? So that that's really what's
37:53
Speaker 1: going on in all these strange behaviors. Interesting, Well, there's
37:57
Speaker 1: been another theory out there, guys. We just been hearing
38:01
Speaker 1: David Wilson, criminology professor, speaking to this morning. There's also
38:05
Speaker 1: another theory floating around that he intentionally left the knife
38:10
Speaker 1: sheath with his DNA on it. I think that is wrong.
38:16
Speaker 1: And the other night when I was driving through the dark,
38:19
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonna, you know exactly where it is, his long
38:22
Speaker 1: circuitous about the dick of an hour to get home
38:24
Speaker 1: when he reportedly left the crime scene. It's pitched dart,
38:28
Speaker 1: there are no street lights, very hard to see, and
38:31
Speaker 1: I've got twenty twenty vision. I just wonder along that
38:35
Speaker 1: drive when it hit him. Oh my stars wears the
38:41
Speaker 1: knife sheath. Yeah, and it is an interesting theory, but
38:45
Speaker 1: I agree with you, Nancy, highly unlikely. No way. Okay,
38:49
Speaker 1: let's get a vote on Now, what about a Dell Carson.
38:51
Speaker 1: You agree with Chris mcdonna, You know I do. I
38:54
Speaker 1: don't think he intentionally left it there. I think the
38:56
Speaker 1: argument from the defense is that he was never there
38:59
Speaker 1: and somebody else got his fingerprint left argument, Laura Angle,
39:05
Speaker 1: do you think you left it their own purpose? You know,
39:08
Speaker 1: that's that's a great question. I personally don't think he did.
39:12
Speaker 1: But just and just to go back, just to go
39:15
Speaker 1: back really quickly about Ted Buddy. That is where we're
39:18
Speaker 1: going to that search warrant, those search warrants when they
39:20
Speaker 1: are released, when we find out what they found in
39:23
Speaker 1: his apartment, what we when we find out what the
39:25
Speaker 1: search history was in his computers. And remember all those
39:29
Speaker 1: all those conversations from the neighbors. He was up late
39:31
Speaker 1: at night, he was walking around, was he pacing, was
39:34
Speaker 1: he thinking? What was he googling? You know, those are
39:36
Speaker 1: the types of things that we will learn as we
39:38
Speaker 1: get closer, as we get closer to that probable car.
39:41
Speaker 1: I can't wait. I wonder if we'll find that before
39:44
Speaker 1: the preliminary hearing. I certainly hope. So, guys, we wait
39:48
Speaker 1: as the evidence unfolds. Fancy Grace comes story, signing off,
39:52
Speaker 1: goodbye friend,