Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / Student Engagement That Sticks: Dave Burgess on Hooks, Passion, and Better PD

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Student Engagement That Sticks: Dave Burgess on Hooks, Passion, and Better PD · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

• 0:00
  Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to edtech
• 0:03
  podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
• 0:07
  Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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  as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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  technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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  conversations with today's top edtech voices,
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  we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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  and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
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  and let's integrate this. Ahoy and welcome to
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  the Integrate This EdTech podcast. Today we're
• 0:34
  very excited to have joining us Dave Burgess,
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  New York Times bestselling author of Teach Like
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  a Pirate and president of Dave Burgess Consulting,
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  Incorporated. And Dave has a very long history
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  and been in the education space for a long time.
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  And so we want to just kind of kick things off
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  right from maybe Dave, if you could take us.
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  kind of to the origin story of what things were
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  you doing maybe before Teach Like a Pirate? And
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  then what was the moment that you realized Teach
• 1:03
  Like a Pirate needed to exist? Yeah, for sure.
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  First of all, thanks so much for having me on
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  the show. I appreciate it. It's an honor to be
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  here. So I was kind of a little late to the game
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  as far as teaching. I kicked around. I was a
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  psychology major in college and was kicked around,
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  tried a bunch of different things and was kind
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  of lost finding a way. And then I applied actually
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  for a high school basketball coaching job. So
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  I always tell people coaching was my gateway
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  drug into education. So I had no idea what I
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  want to do with my life, saw this coaching job.
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  I've been a basketball player my whole life,
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  got hired as a basketball coach at the school,
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  which I eventually taught at love working with
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  the kids so much went back to night school and
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  got a teacher credential. So when I got hired,
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  I didn't have a teacher credential, but I love
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  working with the kids so much. I'm like, I want
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  to do this all day. and went back night school,
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  got a teaching credential, got hired at the same
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  school. And that was kind of the kickoff to my
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  journey in teaching. Eventually got so obsessed
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  with the teaching part of it that I left the
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  coaching behind and just like focused in on the
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  classroom. And so that was kind of where it all
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  started. And yeah, coaching is my is my start.
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  And so when when was it exactly that you had
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  the idea for Teach Psych a Pirate? So I had been
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  teaching for several years. Um, and then one
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  day my department chair came and he met me for
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  lunch and I can, I can remember it so perfectly.
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  He walked in and he said, you know what, I just
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  got put on the professional development committee
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  for the district. And I thought to myself, how
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  cool it'd be if you put together a workshop based
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  on some of those crazy things you're doing under
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  your room that nobody understands. And, uh, there
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  was like a summer Institute that the district
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  was holding. And, uh, then he stopped and he
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  said, but you know what, the more I think about
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  it, I'm not sure that you can like I think that
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  your success in the classroom is kind of personality
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  driven. I'm not sure something you could teach
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  other people and he kind of moved on and I got
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  upset by that. I'm like hey sign me up to do
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  one of those workshops. So I signed up to do
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  a full day workshop for the peers in my district.
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  I was not smart. I did not choose a one -hour
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  session. I signed up for a full day workshop
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  for the peers in my district and I drove away
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  from that meeting going like oh my god what have
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  I just done? I don't have a workshop. I don't
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  have any of this written down. I don't have it
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  organized in any fashion and so I got relentless
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  about writing down everything I do in my classroom.
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  that I thought was successful. But that wasn't
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  good enough. Because that's what I do. And I
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  had to take a step back and try to figure out,
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  like, where do these ideas come from? And every
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  time I traced back, it always came back to a
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  question. It was the kind of question that I
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  was asking about my lessons that other people
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  weren't asked about their lessons. So I began
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  to compile the questions one after another. And
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  so eventually, I had like 170 of them. And it
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  hit me, questions are the key to creativity.
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  Like if you want to change your teacher's classroom,
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  like change their questions, change the questions
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  they're asking when they're designing their lessons
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  and thinking about what their pedagogy and all
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  that, and you could change their whole class.
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  And that was kind of the start of it. And then
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  the other thing that happened is I knew I wanted
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  to have a theme. I knew I wanted to be able to
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  model and demonstrate what I do in my classroom.
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  in the workshop. Like I wanted teachers to feel
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  what it was like to be drawn in by these ideas.
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  Like, you know, when you go to like a workshop,
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  and a teacher is telling you all this stuff about
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  maybe like student engagement. And it's like
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  the least engaging thing you've ever seen their
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  presentation of how to be engaged. It's like
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  the least engaging thing you've ever seen in
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  your life, right? Like that's, that's, that's
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  always seemed ridiculous to me. Like if I'm going
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  to be the engagement guy, I guess a lot of pressure.
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  If you write up a workshop description that says
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  you're going to teach teachers how to create
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  an outrageously creative lesson that's going
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  to have kids knocking down the walls get in,
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  you better be able to give a pretty engaging
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  workshop. And so I want to have a theme. And
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  pirates appeal to me because pirates are unconventional.
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  They're willing to reject the status quo. They're
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  willing to sail into uncharted waters with no
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  guarantee of success. They're risk takers, rebels,
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  and mavericks. And so I wanted to embrace that
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  spirit of being a pirate, right? And then pirates
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  are also known for having hooks. So it's a play
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  on words. Like this is all about how you can
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  hook students and draw them almost magically
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  or magnetically into what you're doing in your
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  rooms, right? And then I'm abnormally obsessed
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  with acronyms, as many educators are. So I mean,
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  the first thing I did is I took a page, I had
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  to turn a page side by side, P -I -R -A -T down
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  the page, and I tried to generate an acronym.
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  I knew I wanted to talk about passion and enthusiasm.
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  They're the P and the E. We're sitting in the
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  beginning and the end of the word, like the cornerstones
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  of it. And then I knew I wanted to talk about
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  building rapport with kids to sort of be in the
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  heart of teaching. There the R was sitting in
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  the center. And so I never looked back. I did
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  the, I was like hit my head. That's my dog thinking
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  that I just knocked on the door. I probably have
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  a bald head. It sounds like you're knocking on
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  something. All right. So the, yeah. And so I
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  never looked back. I did the workshop that summer
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  for my kids. and then for the peers in my district,
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  excuse me. And then I began to go anywhere or
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  anyone listening to talk about these ideas. It
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  sounds like it's kind of like the pirate life
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  found you or did you find the pirate life? I'm
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  not, or is it just like it just mutually kind
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  of - It's a perfect balance of both. Yeah. I
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  get a lot of feeling of listening to you talk
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  and it reminds me of like Mike Leach. the old
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  football coach, he passed away, I think a couple
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  of years ago, but, you know, talked about living
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  a pirate life, even outside of his coaching world.
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  And then I'm just kind of like drawing some,
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  some comparisons there to that. But okay, I'm
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  going to ask you to step back here for a minute,
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  right? Take off the hook, you know, take off
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  the bandana or the eyepatch or whatever, right?
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  And yeah, right. Exactly. Cover that up. You
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  know, what for someone not accustomed to the
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  pirate sort of life, what am I kind of going
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  here? Explain what you mean here by adding your
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  passion and your rapport and your enthusiasm
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  to a teacher who's a little bit more unfamiliar
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  with it, maybe not a pirate themselves. Yeah
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  and so one of the things that I always tell people
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  is Sometimes people will push back, for example,
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  on my focus on student engagement. And I always
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  tell them, hey, listen, it doesn't matter what
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  you say if nobody's listening. Don't tell me
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  it doesn't come back to student engagement. You
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  can be the greatest teacher in the world. You
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  can know everything about your content. In fact,
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  I know teachers. They know so much about their
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  content. It's unbelievable. But who cares how
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  much you know about your content? It's what students
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  walk away with. what skills they walk away with,
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  what content knowledge they walk away with. And
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  so if you can't transmit that, then it doesn't
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  matter. And so Carlos Santana said this line
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  that I love. He said, enthusiasm is the most
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  contagious thing in the world. The songs become
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  incidental. What people receive is your joy.
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  And as an educator, I feel it's the same thing.
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  The lessons become incidental. What students
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  receive is our joy, that sense that they get
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  that we love doing what we're doing. We love
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  being there with them. We enjoy teaching. We
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  want them to be, we're blessed to have them as
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  a part of our life. And when kids feel that,
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  it changes everything about a classroom culture.
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  And that's the kind of thing that can't be faked.
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  And so it's always about trying to bring in this
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  passion and this sense, you know, like a teacher
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  will say to me, like, I, you know, oh, no, I
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  hit my head again. I hope the teacher will say,
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  like, I can't understand, like, you know, my
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  kids are just not into the Spanish American war.
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  Like, it's just, I'm not going to team to get
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  them focused on this thing. And I'm looking at
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  them, I'm thinking to themselves, like, I wouldn't
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  be interested in the Spanish American war in
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  your class either. Like, look, like you're, Look
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  at the kind of enthusiasm and charisma that you're
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  generating like just tell me about this I I know
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  you're like I know that your lesson probably
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  isn't engaging right and so But the passion can
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  come from different things. Here's the deep dark
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  secret about education. We know we're supposed
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  to be passionate But we're not passionate necessarily
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  about everything that we teach That's one of
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  the deep dark secrets that I talk about teach
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  like a pirate So how can you bring passion on
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  days when you're not passionate about? your particular
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  content area, right? And so I broke it into three
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  categories, right? So there's your content passion,
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  that's fine. You might have some passion around
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  that, but then there's other areas of passion
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  too, like your professional passions. What is
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  it? Not about your content. What is it about
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  just being an educator that you're passionate
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  about? And how can you tap into that? So really
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  getting educators to intentionally focus on what
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  are their professional passions, embracing that
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  mightier purpose of being an educator and being
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  a life changer in the role, having that life
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  changing role in the life of kids. So your professional
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  passions. And then the third category of passion
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  that I talk about is your personal passions.
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  What is it that you're passionate about? completely
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  outside of your profession. Is there any way
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  that you can tie some of those things into what
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  you do as well? And so some teachers have this
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  thing where like, hey, listen, I have a line
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  that I draw right here. Here's my personal passion.
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  Here's my professional passion, right? I like
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  my personal life and my professional life. And
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  I do not like to mix the two, right? And I think
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  that's a mistake. What's unique about you. your
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  particular strengths and talents, your voice
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  that you add to your classroom is what makes
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  you most powerful and effective with students.
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  And so being able to add that personal voice
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  and tying into those professional passions and
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  then weaving it together with some of that content
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  passion that hopefully you have for some of the
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  stuff that you're teaching, when you combine
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  all three of those areas together, that's when
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  you really become relentless and uncompromising
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  in the pursuit of excellence and greatness. Yeah,
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  I've always kind of thought about it here and
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  I don't I don't know if you would agree with
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  this as well, but When I was in the classroom,
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  I always kind of thought that I had okay There's
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  there's the Jeremy that my students know and
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  and and that's it's me, right? But there's a
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  Jeremy that my friends Outside of the school
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  see and it's a totally different me And I found
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  when I was really connecting very well, I could
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  be a little bit more goofy. I could show a different
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  side of myself to kids. But did it come off as
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  maybe less authentic to my peers who are also
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  my friends who are peering in? from outside that
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  classroom door and wondering what's going on
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  in that classroom, you know, did you? Did you
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  find similar things to like? Did you get a lot
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  of pushback from some of your own colleagues
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  down the hallway when you start trying some of
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  these different ideas and you're showing the
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  things? And I'm guessing students are leaving
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  your classroom, walking down the hall into another
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  classroom that doesn't have that same level of
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  engagement. And are you getting any blowback?
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  from that? Yeah, for sure. And so first of all,
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  to go back to the other thing, like, I'm trying
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  to bring more of myself to work every day. Like,
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  hey, we're at work, like, too high of a percentage
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  of our lives to unplug ourselves when we walk
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  through the doors of the building, right? So
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  I want to, I'm trying to, I want teachers, I
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  mean, I want students to graduate, not just knowing
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  my curriculum. I want them to graduate knowing
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  me as well. That's part of building rapport and
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  relationships with kids, right? And so, but for
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  sure, this is a thing that I always talk to,
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  especially new teachers struggle with this. and
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  I'll tell them, you know, they'll be upset about
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  something that another, like a colleague said
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  about their class, right? And this is a very
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  sad thing to have to say, but it's the truth.
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  It's like, listen, if you come onto a school
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  campus and you design a class that's wildly engaging,
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  that kids love and are talking about and buzzing
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  about, and the kids are like excited to be in
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  your room, that's not going to make everybody
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  on your campus happy. And like, I'm sorry to
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  say that, but it's just, it's just the truth
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  of the matter. And they're going to seek reasons
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  for why your class is popular with students.
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  And they're not going to be self -reflective
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  reasons, right? They're going to be, they're
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  going to look for re like there's, oh, well,
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  he's just over there playing games and doing
• 13:03
  magic tricks. Or he's just having fun over there.
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  Like we're trying to do rigorous real work over
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  here. Like, and like, he's just having fun over
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  there. And they try to set up this false dichotomy
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  on you. People will do this all the time. They
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  try to set up this false dichotomy that either
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  your class is about learning or your class is
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  about fun. Not only can those things go together,
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  they go better together. I call it the Reese's
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  effect. They go better together, right? And so,
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  but there's a lot of people that will say if
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  your kids are having a blast and having fun and
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  buzzing and talking about that, like, oh, it
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  must not be like serious stuff going on there.
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  And so yeah, you have to kind of inoculate new
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  teachers sometimes for the fact that there might
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  be some teachers on their campus that don't like
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  the fact that kids like their class. So can we
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  talk a little bit just about a couple different
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  pieces of engaging lessons? Like one of the things
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  that you talk about is hooks that pull students
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  in like a magnet. If you're thinking about a
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  teacher that, and maybe you've worked with some
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  in trainings or things like that, but what's
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  one thing that someone who's very adverse to
• 14:05
  this idea, maybe they're going to give this a
• 14:08
  try. What's one hook that they could try tomorrow
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  that doesn't really require much of them, but
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  gets them thinking about a different way of doing
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  things? Yeah. Well, so I'll give you an example
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  is like, what are you saying today to get some
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  excited about coming tomorrow? What are you saying
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  this week, which is building up what's going
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  to happen next week? And so when you go to the
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  movies these days, You don't even see the movie
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  for like 20 minutes. What do you see? Previews
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  and trailers. Do you know why? Because they work.
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  They make people want to see what's coming out,
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  right? Well, I work hard to make kids want to
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  see my class. Like I'm building up. lessons like
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  the right I'm building up my lunar landing to
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  my 60s party things like that from the first
• 14:52
  week of school I'm talking about that lunar landing
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  talking about that 60s party right and I'm building
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  up this but mystery buzz anticipation for different
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  things like this and and teach like a pirate
• 15:02
  world we call this preheating the grill and also
• 15:04
  by that listen I don't put my steak down on a
• 15:06
  cold grill I preheat by grill and what because
• 15:09
  when you drop your steak on a cold grill nothing
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  happens but when you drop your steak on a preheated
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  grill what happens It's sizzles. Well, I want
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  my content to sizzle when I drop it. So I'm always
• 15:20
  preheating the grill, but not mystery, curiosity,
• 15:23
  buzz and anticipation. So like what happens today
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  when they're leaving the room against them, like
• 15:28
  maybe a sense of anticipation, buzz mystery around
• 15:30
  what's going to happen tomorrow. Or when they
• 15:32
  leave on Friday, what gets them excited about
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  like, I can't wait to see what's going to happen
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  Monday. Remember when he said this was going
• 15:37
  to have like this up? Like, so I call that sometimes
• 15:40
  like the teaser hook or the promotion hook. And
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  so it's like you're trying to create sort of
• 15:44
  a movie trailer kind of preview kind of thing
• 15:49
  that's going to get them pumped up about coming
• 15:50
  in. What do they see when they walk in the room?
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  What's shining on your screen? What's written
• 15:54
  on your board that creates a little mystery,
• 15:56
  a little anticipation, a little buzz to it, right?
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  And so there's all these kind of just little
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  very small things that don't take a lot of time,
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  but it just kind of transforms the how we look
• 16:06
  at what we're doing. I look at teaching as a
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  triple Venn diagram. There are three interlocking
• 16:12
  circles, and we have to have all three to be
• 16:15
  our most powerful. One of those circles, I label
• 16:18
  as content. We have to have that circle, and
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  we're just entertainers and babysitters. That's
• 16:21
  got to be there, right? But there's lots of ways
• 16:24
  to learn your content. There's professional development
• 16:26
  about content. There's books you can read about
• 16:28
  content. And go online and learn your content.
• 16:29
  There's lots of ways you can learn your content.
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  Then there's a second circle that interacts with
• 16:33
  that. I call it techniques and methods. And we
• 16:35
  have a whole toolbox as educators of techniques
• 16:38
  and methods that we've gotten from our credential
• 16:39
  programs, from trainings in districts, our colleagues,
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  and lots of books a bit written about the techniques
• 16:44
  and methods to teach. But then there's a third
• 16:46
  circle that a lot of people forget about. So
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  yeah, you know your content. You got all these
• 16:51
  techniques and methods. But now, the third circle
• 16:53
  I label presentation. So you know your content
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  now. You have all these techniques and methods.
• 16:58
  But how are you going to present it in such a
• 17:00
  way that it's relevant for kids? How are you
• 17:01
  going to present it in such a way that it's engaging
• 17:03
  for them? How are you going to present it in
• 17:04
  such a way that it does draw them almost magically
• 17:07
  or magically? That's the third circle of Teach
• 17:09
  Like a Pirate, right? And so that's what Teach
• 17:13
  Like a Pirate is focusing on. Some people will
• 17:16
  say, criticism of Teach Like a Pirate. Here's
• 17:20
  a big one. It's very teacher -centric. Like it's
• 17:24
  about like what teachers are doing in class action
• 17:26
  as opposed to like what students are doing in
• 17:29
  class. Yeah, I Absolutely. I'm not trying to
• 17:33
  write the encyclopedia teaching. This isn't the
• 17:35
  but this isn't like the teaching Bible This isn't
• 17:37
  everything This is a book about what can you
• 17:40
  do as a teacher to be more engaging in your classroom?
• 17:42
  And why is that important and how can you tap
• 17:44
  into all these different things, right? and so
• 17:47
  that that's it's always something that's annoyed
• 17:49
  me it's like the All of a sudden, my book has
• 17:52
  to be about everything? Like, how come people
• 17:56
  say, how come you don't have more ed tech in
• 17:57
  your book? I always tell them the same thing.
• 18:01
  Very simple. I wasn't very good at it. Like why
• 18:05
  I couldn't write from authentic place about educational
• 18:08
  technology because I wasn't very good at it,
• 18:10
  right? And so I wanted everything in my book
• 18:13
  to be authentic and something that I could write
• 18:14
  about. Like I did this in class, it works with
• 18:16
  kids, I can guarantee you. Like, you know, and
• 18:18
  so, and that's kind of... the transitional moment
• 18:22
  for me into the publishing is like, okay, are
• 18:25
  you going to write Teach Like a Pirate part two?
• 18:27
  No, I already wrote my book. I wrote my manifesto.
• 18:30
  I told you about all the stuff I do in my classroom.
• 18:31
  I think it's successful kids, but that's not
• 18:34
  the full story. So how can I empower some other
• 18:36
  people to share their stories and the other parts
• 18:39
  of education, which I also think are important,
• 18:40
  right? And so that's kind of the, for me was
• 18:44
  the transition to the publishing. So if you if
• 18:46
  you look at uh, so let's just take like a lecture
• 18:50
  lesson, right? So let's say that the teacher
• 18:53
  You know, they know they're like the those few
• 18:56
  circles that you mentioned, right? They know
• 18:57
  their content really well They know what pedagogy
• 19:01
  looks like But they're at the front of the room.
• 19:04
  They've got their Google slideshow and its presentation
• 19:07
  on Whatever lesson it happens to be right? How
• 19:11
  do you how do you help a teacher that? wants
• 19:14
  to change that into kind of a pirate -worthy
• 19:18
  lesson, right? How do you move from standing
• 19:20
  in front of the classroom kind of like regurgitating
• 19:24
  the facts on the slide to really engaging in
• 19:28
  the content and pulling out the very interesting
• 19:32
  pieces like you mentioned. It sounds like you
• 19:34
  think about all those interesting pieces a lot
• 19:36
  because you know that those are gonna be the
• 19:38
  hooks that pull kids in. So what does it look
• 19:41
  like to shift that over? Yeah, so like Most teachers
• 19:47
  problem is not their content knowledge Right
• 19:50
  like I even said this is like a crazy thing that
• 19:53
  I said in the book But this is what I actually
• 19:54
  I actually wrote this in the book. I said right
• 19:58
  before I did all the others 30 presentational
• 20:00
  hooks in the book right and Before I gave the
• 20:04
  presentational hooks. I said listen I'm assuming
• 20:07
  that you know your content if you don't know
• 20:11
  your content Put this book down right now and
• 20:14
  go look at that like go do that like this is
• 20:16
  after the content, right? So like again, I'm
• 20:18
  not trying to short give like Cheat the content
• 20:24
  Like I actually said that in the book If you
• 20:26
  don't know your content you have the wrong book
• 20:28
  put this book down and go learn something about
• 20:30
  what you're teaching right? Now, you know your
• 20:33
  content. You've already been through a credential
• 20:35
  program. You've been through all these conferences
• 20:36
  and trainings now let's add in hooks. Now let's
• 20:41
  accessorize your lesson. Now, and to go back
• 20:43
  to the barbecue, the pre -heat and the grill
• 20:47
  thing, the same thing, like if I came out with
• 20:50
  a raw steak on your plate, and that was all that
• 20:54
  was on the plate, you wouldn't be very happy
• 20:56
  with me, right? And so the first thing that would
• 20:59
  be the problem is that it's uncooked. It's not
• 21:03
  elbow for you because it's uncooked. Why? I never
• 21:05
  turned on the propane. I never brought any heat
• 21:07
  to it, right? So the same thing is true of content.
• 21:10
  You can have the finest content in the world,
• 21:12
  but it's still not edible unless you turn on
• 21:13
  the propane, unless you have a little bit of
• 21:15
  heat energy. So it's about your personal charisma
• 21:17
  and energy that you're presenting in front of
• 21:19
  class. Don't expect kids to be excited about
• 21:21
  something that you're not excited about. Don't
• 21:24
  get kids, you shouldn't expect kids to be all
• 21:26
  pumped up to want to learn when you're clearly
• 21:28
  not pumped up to teach it. And so it's about
• 21:31
  that charisma and energy that you're bringing.
• 21:33
  And then what else do you have when you get served
• 21:35
  a meal? Not only is it cooked, but also it's
• 21:39
  been seasoned. and there's marinade, and there's
• 21:42
  side dishes, beverages, and desserts. So what
• 21:44
  are the elements around your lesson that add
• 21:46
  that richness? How are you incorporating music
• 21:48
  into this? How are you incorporating the arts?
• 21:52
  Music and art, that's not something for kids
• 21:53
  to only do when they're over in this part of
• 21:55
  the building over here or during this hour of
• 21:56
  the day. Things like music and art, when they're
• 21:58
  woven together with your curriculum, helps bring
• 22:00
  stuff alive. So what are you doing to create?
• 22:02
  How are you adding that project? How are you
• 22:04
  adding that... Again, what are you saying the
• 22:07
  day before to make them when they're coming in?
• 22:09
  What props have you incorporated into this lesson?
• 22:12
  What have you chosen about this lesson that maybe
• 22:15
  it ties into what the kids are interested in?
• 22:17
  I was asking these questions, what are kids into
• 22:20
  outside of school? How can I use that inside
• 22:23
  of school? And so there's all these questions
• 22:25
  around these 30 categories of hooks that you
• 22:27
  can ask that you can start to accessorize and
• 22:29
  build and add in all these different things to
• 22:31
  the lesson. And so that's like a whole process
• 22:34
  that teachers go through when they go through
• 22:36
  the Teach Like a Pirate system is they learn
• 22:38
  how to ask these questions of their lessons.
• 22:42
  You know, we're on a very, you know, David and
• 22:46
  I come into this space as technology integration,
• 22:49
  and so that EdTech piece is pretty forward in
• 22:52
  a lot of our thinking and the things that we
• 22:54
  do. But it is really nice to listen to you talk
• 22:57
  about, you know, how EdTech is not necessarily
• 23:00
  the focus of your book, but maybe can be used
• 23:02
  to help. enhanced to help accelerate some of
• 23:05
  those moments? Do you have any examples of moments
• 23:08
  where, you know, perhaps, even though technology
• 23:10
  is definitely not the focus, you still start
• 23:13
  with that objective, you're still adding good
• 23:15
  pedagogy, you're adding that motivation, that
• 23:17
  hook, but what are some things that maybe EdTech
• 23:19
  could do to help amplify what it is that you're
• 23:22
  doing? Well, so for me, the most, like the thing
• 23:24
  that pops out right away is the use of EdTech
• 23:29
  as... Allowing them to be creators, right? And
• 23:32
  so for me that would be a more I'm using Markers
• 23:37
  and different they're getting together and they're
• 23:39
  making non -listic non -linguistic representations
• 23:41
  of things that I've talked about and all that
• 23:42
  kind of stuff But I want them to get in together
• 23:44
  collaborating talking and creating and like I
• 23:46
  always like one of things I say is like I'm not
• 23:48
  trying to put better trivial pursuit players
• 23:50
  in the world Like, I want kids that can go out
• 23:52
  and do stuff, right? I want makers, not memorizers,
• 23:55
  creators, not consumers. And technology in the
• 23:58
  hands of kids where they're using it as creation
• 24:01
  tools is what I would be focused on. Yes, you
• 24:05
  can use it as a presentational tool, as an educator,
• 24:08
  but more importantly, I would be trying to put
• 24:11
  it in the hands of kids and allow them to be
• 24:13
  creating and making with the technology. And
• 24:16
  I think that's probably the biggest thing I would
• 24:19
  focus on. And I think part of that, I think it
• 24:22
  makes the, you know, you called it your book,
• 24:24
  your manifesto, but the main tenants here that
• 24:27
  we're talking about, the acronym, right, seems
• 24:30
  to be timeless, right? I mean, Teach Like a Pirate
• 24:34
  is what, maybe 13, 14 years old since it was
• 24:38
  published? I started talking about it in 2005
• 24:42
  doing workshops. And then the book didn't come
• 24:44
  out until 2012, which is now still like 13 years.
• 24:48
  I mean, it's been a long time. But I think it's
• 24:52
  based on some evergreen principles. And those
• 24:54
  evergreen principles, there's kind of basically
• 24:57
  three. One, it's based on student engagement.
• 25:02
  It's never going away. It's always going to be
• 25:03
  evergreen. Two, it's based on creativity. Which
• 25:06
  we're always gonna need creativity and then the
• 25:09
  third thing is it's based on that passion piece
• 25:12
  and embracing kind of that mightier purpose of
• 25:14
  being a life changer as an educator and how to
• 25:16
  tap into that and how to overcome obstacles in
• 25:19
  the pursuit of that and like what is it that
• 25:22
  stifles you as a creator and trying to learn
• 25:25
  how to like knock those obstacles down and So
• 25:28
  like there's oh, you know There's a whole section
• 25:29
  in there about like here are the things that
• 25:30
  are gonna hold you back I know that I got you
• 25:32
  excited about this stuff But here are the things
• 25:35
  that are going to hold you back. And then I try
• 25:37
  to knock those down one by one as well. And so
• 25:41
  I think it does have an evergreen feel. And then
• 25:44
  the other piece that makes it evergreen, by the
• 25:45
  way, is the fact that it's based on questions.
• 25:48
  And so here's the thing with this. If I gave
• 25:52
  all the answers in the book, then it would rapidly
• 25:54
  become irrelevant because the world has changed,
• 25:57
  right? but it's the questions that is the whole
• 26:01
  centerpiece of the book are the questions. And
• 26:03
  now when you were asking those questions in 2012,
• 26:06
  when the book came out, you might have a set
• 26:08
  of answers. Now you're asking that same question,
• 26:11
  but now we're in the age of AI. So all of a sudden
• 26:14
  now, your answer might incorporate something
• 26:17
  that has to do with AI, or it might have to incorporate
• 26:20
  something that has to do with whatever the latest
• 26:22
  social media platform is. If I would have said,
• 26:25
  make sure you do this with Facebook, maybe it
• 26:27
  would have been irrelevant. But now, it doesn't
• 26:30
  matter what year you ask the question, you're
• 26:33
  going to be able to get an answer based on where
• 26:35
  you are and where society is at the moment. It's
• 26:40
  really interesting here. I love your phrasing
• 26:42
  of them as evergreen. And then you tie in this
• 26:46
  AI piece to it. So those evergreen things that
• 26:48
  you had mentioned, right, are all things to me
• 26:52
  that AI as a teacher can't replicate. That is
• 26:57
  still why the most important thing for the student
• 27:00
  in that classroom is to have a teacher that's
• 27:03
  going to be there and be their guide, their assistant,
• 27:07
  their mentor, their teacher through that learning
• 27:11
  journey, through that learning process and those
• 27:13
  evergreen things that are part of that AI can't
• 27:16
  do. Yeah, there's so many things that so first
• 27:19
  of all when I think back of like what teach like
• 27:21
  what I used to do is I used to brainstorm on
• 27:23
  my own or try to get people to collaborate with
• 27:25
  me and brainstorm like around some of these questions
• 27:27
  all that like well now like AI is the greatest
• 27:30
  brainstormer in the world. It never gets tired.
• 27:33
  It's there whenever you want it. It will continue
• 27:34
  to it will iterate as many times as you want
• 27:37
  and so now like if I have a question in the book
• 27:40
  about like using like one of the hooks is the
• 27:42
  kinesthetic hook movement. And I can just tell
• 27:44
  people right away, I'm just let's start by this.
• 27:47
  We don't have kids moving enough in class. We
• 27:49
  need to get them up and moving more as part of
• 27:50
  the lesson. All right. So maybe you have a lesson.
• 27:53
  And if you I'm thinking like, okay, how can I
• 27:55
  get kids up and out of their seat during this
• 27:57
  lesson? Well, that's a question you ask AI now.
• 28:00
  And AI, you know, AI will give you as many as
• 28:02
  many iterations of that as you want. You're like,
• 28:04
  no, no, no, it needs to be, I need it to be something
• 28:06
  that happens within this amount of time. And
• 28:08
  like you give it time constraints, you could
• 28:10
  give it because it could be inside the classroom,
• 28:13
  outside the classroom, whatever it might be,
• 28:15
  now you have the greatest brainstormer in the
• 28:16
  history of the world that will never get tired
• 28:18
  of working on your lessons with you. And that's
• 28:20
  one of the opportunities of AI for teachers,
• 28:25
  I think. But like you said, there's lots of things
• 28:27
  that AI can't do. I'll give you a perfect example.
• 28:31
  You know what AI can't do? AI can't realize when
• 28:35
  that student in the third row said something
• 28:38
  that isn't a part of the lesson, But you as a
• 28:42
  professional educator realize oh wait a second
• 28:45
  What that kid just said right there is way more
• 28:47
  important than the lesson let's go down this
• 28:50
  rabbit hole and take advantage of this teachable
• 28:52
  moment and like the the lesson can wait because
• 28:56
  This right here the kids are like you could see
• 28:59
  people look on kids face when that kid said that
• 29:01
  and people are we're interested in that and everyone's
• 29:04
  like looking up at you going like Oh, wow, what
• 29:06
  is he going to say about this? And you say, the
• 29:09
  professional educator can say, like, this lesson
• 29:12
  means nothing compared to what that kid just
• 29:14
  said. Let's explore this. AI is never going to
• 29:16
  do that. So Dave, can you talk a little bit about
• 29:23
  what it is that helps to create rapport or the
• 29:28
  culture that the things that you're mentioning?
• 29:33
  kids would come to your class and know that they're
• 29:38
  going to experience something that is a culture
• 29:42
  that every day they come and they know what you're
• 29:45
  going to bring to the table, right? So can you
• 29:48
  share a moment where you knew that your classroom
• 29:51
  had become more than just a place to get a grade
• 29:53
  or to sit through class for 45 minutes until
• 29:56
  I move on to the next one? Yeah, I have a slide
• 29:58
  in my breakout workshop. that shows a picture
• 30:02
  of the kids doing this crazy thing in class.
• 30:07
  It's actually what it is, is reenacting Lindbergh's
• 30:10
  flight across the Atlantic, and the desks are
• 30:11
  turned upside down, so they're in their desks
• 30:13
  like they have planes with the legs of the chair
• 30:16
  sticking up, so they have throttles and levers,
• 30:18
  and they have these flight goggles on that they've
• 30:20
  made. They've created, again, trying to have
• 30:22
  their creative output. as many lessons as possible.
• 30:25
  They've created their flight goggles and all
• 30:27
  this kind of stuff like this. And we're reenacting
• 30:29
  this flight. And I show them the picture. And
• 30:33
  there's three people standing at the door in
• 30:37
  the back. And I say, who do you think those people
• 30:39
  are? And the most common guesses are, that's
• 30:43
  admin watching, observing your lesson. No, those
• 30:46
  must be kids who didn't want to participate,
• 30:48
  or there weren't enough desks. Then they say
• 30:51
  like, teachers like observing learning from your
• 30:54
  class? No. Who are those people? And I say, you
• 30:58
  know who those people are? Those are kids from
• 31:00
  other classes on bathroom passes. And so like
• 31:04
  I said, like, like, multiple times for class,
• 31:07
  I have to excuse out the bathroom past people.
• 31:09
  Because, and I say, like, if you use these ideas,
• 31:12
  you can create a class that not only has your
• 31:14
  kids knocking down the walls to get in, you can
• 31:16
  build a class where you're going to have to put
• 31:17
  locks on your doors to keep the other kids out.
• 31:20
  Like people, like they get a text from their
• 31:22
  friends and like, you got to get over to Burgess's
• 31:23
  class right now. You should see what we're doing.
• 31:25
  And next thing you know, I have 10 people sitting
• 31:27
  on the counter from other classes watching and
• 31:29
  have to send them back to their class. Like that
• 31:31
  was, and then the other thing that would happen
• 31:32
  is some of these like big giant lessons, like
• 31:35
  the lunar landing lesson and things like that,
• 31:38
  where I would have kids who graduated try to
• 31:40
  come back. I was like, hey, can I come to it?
• 31:43
  They would see that I was doing the lunar landing,
• 31:45
  and they would try to get back on campus and
• 31:46
  come back and go through the lesson again. I'm
• 31:48
  like, OK, this is working. Yeah, I want to pivot
• 31:52
  here a little bit from the classroom to some
• 31:56
  of the professional development work that you
• 31:58
  have done. And I think for me, listening to you
• 32:01
  talk, I can hear how these strategies are going
• 32:03
  to be ultra engaging for students. But now in
• 32:08
  the PD. realm, right? Your students are teachers.
• 32:12
  Is there a different way you have to approach
• 32:14
  the pedagogy and the andragogy with adult learners?
• 32:19
  And you know, can you can you bring that same
• 32:22
  level of pirate enthusiasm as you do to students
• 32:25
  to adults? I think this is essential to and I'm
• 32:32
  not saying that I'm treating adults like kids.
• 32:37
  I'm treating adults like humans who have the
• 32:39
  same buttons of engagement. And so a lot of these
• 32:43
  things are not things which are about a particular
• 32:47
  content area or even an age. It's human nature.
• 32:51
  If I bring out a box and tease the fact that
• 32:53
  there's something inside this box that's engaging,
• 32:55
  but I'm not showing you what's inside the box
• 32:57
  and build it up and build it up. And when I open
• 32:58
  that box, when I finally pull it out, all eyes
• 33:01
  are gonna be right there. It's human nature.
• 33:03
  Okay. And so a lot of the hooks from Teach Like
• 33:05
  a Pirate are based on things that are just human
• 33:08
  nature. And so they work on adults, they work
• 33:10
  on kids, and it works on any age. So that's one
• 33:13
  thing I would say. But then when I'm giving professional
• 33:15
  development, I am trying to hit an even split.
• 33:19
  Intentionally, I'm trying to hit a very even
• 33:21
  split. 50 % of the time, you might feel like
• 33:25
  you're listening to like a motivational speaker,
• 33:27
  like a Zig Ziglar or something like this, or
• 33:30
  a football coach. Getting ready for his team
• 33:32
  to come out from halftime down a touchdown, right?
• 33:36
  You like where you like I'm ready to knock down
• 33:38
  a wall right now after listening to this guy,
• 33:41
  right? So at 50 % of the time I'm trying to just
• 33:44
  get you really pumped up about education and
• 33:47
  about teaching and what your role is in the life
• 33:49
  of kids and 50 % of the time I am literally showing
• 33:55
  you what I do in my classroom and modeling it
• 33:58
  as if you are the students so that you can feel
• 34:01
  what it was like to get drawn in by that, right?
• 34:04
  Showing you the lesson hook and having you sense
• 34:08
  like, Oh, okay, wait a second. I get it now.
• 34:11
  Like that was that brought me in. Like that's,
• 34:14
  that's gonna crush in my high school classroom
• 34:16
  or my middle school classroom because I just
• 34:18
  got pulled in by that. Right. And so I want people
• 34:22
  to walk away. with two things. I want them to
• 34:24
  be with the real practical things that they can
• 34:28
  do, but then also fired up enough and excited
• 34:32
  enough to actually go through the trouble and
• 34:35
  the risk of trying it. And so it's kind of that
• 34:38
  50 -50 split. And I do not apologize for the
• 34:42
  fact that I also think that professional development
• 34:44
  should be entertaining. If you're going to ask
• 34:47
  teachers to sit in a room for three, five, six,
• 34:50
  whatever, how many hours, It's that you should
• 34:54
  not just like students. We shouldn't be boring
• 34:56
  them We should not be it should not be a pulling
• 34:59
  teeth or like going to the dentist office. I
• 35:02
  Absolutely am while I'm teaching these ideas
• 35:06
  and these strategies It's also a show. It's 100
• 35:09
  % I'm also doing a show and I'm trying to entertain
• 35:11
  you and make you Joyful and being there just
• 35:14
  like with my students. I want my students to
• 35:16
  feel joyful about being in my class Yeah, and
• 35:19
  I've definitely seen that play out. In fact,
• 35:21
  I was presenting at a conference on Friday So
• 35:25
  we're recording this on a Monday. So just a few
• 35:27
  days ago and I ate lunch with a teacher that
• 35:31
  had taught in the same building as I did back
• 35:33
  in the day and he had since moved on to another
• 35:36
  district, but we happened to be in the same place
• 35:38
  and and he said to me Jeremy, you know, I just
• 35:40
  went to this session the guy was super intelligent
• 35:44
  super smart and knew his you know, could explain
• 35:48
  things incredibly well, but he said people just
• 35:52
  sat there for a whole hour. Nobody got up, nobody
• 35:57
  moved around, and it was basically one -way stuff.
• 36:00
  Granted, it was great information, but he said
• 36:04
  my brain was shutting off after about 20 minutes,
• 36:07
  and he said I don't really remember anything
• 36:09
  that happened after that. So when you tried to
• 36:12
  set up, you know, your PD sessions, I don't know
• 36:16
  if you want to think of maybe if you want to
• 36:17
  think of it as a specific example, or just generally,
• 36:21
  you know, how do you try to balance it so that
• 36:23
  you're hitting that those 50 50 % that you talked
• 36:26
  about? I mean, it's extraordinarily intentional,
• 36:31
  like I'm coming out, I'm hooking them with something
• 36:33
  that's really engaging right from the very first
• 36:35
  thing I do is drawing them in there's Cheering
• 36:37
  going on. We have a spectator up on the stage
• 36:39
  and it's like a magic related kind of thing that
• 36:42
  I'm doing right and then going straight from
• 36:45
  that without any Real like transitional period
• 36:48
  straight into the teaching part of it. It's this
• 36:50
  thing It's a thing with if anyone's ever seen
• 36:53
  me speak its thing with the cups and keys and
• 36:55
  a lock right and at the end I have the key in
• 36:58
  my hand and the lock in my hand They just have
• 36:59
  this magical experience and people are cheering
• 37:02
  about it and I'm saying and then right away with
• 37:05
  no transition I'm like, that's like a lot of
• 37:08
  what we're gonna be talking about today. What
• 37:09
  is the key to unlock? And I have the key in the
• 37:11
  log right there. What is the key to unlock this
• 37:13
  thing called student engagement? And a lot of
• 37:15
  people talk about wanting to have attention in
• 37:16
  the classroom, like almost like it's some sort
• 37:18
  of currency. Like I want my students to pay attention,
• 37:21
  but like we know there's lots of ways you can
• 37:23
  get attention. Like you can use behavior management
• 37:25
  techniques to get attention. That's not what
• 37:26
  we're after. You can use intimidation to get
• 37:28
  attention. Like we all know we had walked by
• 37:30
  completely silent classrooms before and it's
• 37:32
  not necessarily because there were engaged students
• 37:33
  inside. It's because there was a tyrant in the
• 37:35
  front of the room. That's not what we're after
• 37:37
  either. And then I hold this whole thing about
• 37:39
  like when you reach this deeper level of engagement,
• 37:42
  like behavior management, all that can slide
• 37:43
  in the background, because an engaged student
• 37:45
  is rarely a behavior problem. So like, forget
• 37:48
  the behavior management workshop, let's just
• 37:50
  have more engaging workshops, or more engaging
• 37:52
  lessons. And so it kind of like right away, it
• 37:55
  goes from this magic trick with audience interaction
• 37:57
  and a participant right into this point about
• 38:00
  student engagement being so critical and key
• 38:03
  to education. So it's just like that. It goes
• 38:06
  back and forth. Boom, boom, boom, boom. And like
• 38:09
  I said, I literally, even in the keynote space,
• 38:12
  thousand people on a stage, I do pieces of my
• 38:16
  lessons. I actually teach them. like the separation,
• 38:20
  like the three branches of the US government,
• 38:24
  the separation. But I do that part of my lesson
• 38:27
  for them. And then I stop and say, OK, so now
• 38:31
  let's talk about why that worked. And we go back.
• 38:34
  And I go through all the different principles
• 38:36
  that I used during that. And then I'll do another
• 38:39
  lesson piece. And then I go back and then teach
• 38:41
  them directly about what it was that drew people
• 38:44
  in for that. Yeah, so it's super, super intentional.
• 38:48
  So that's a good transition to talk just a bit
• 38:52
  about so you have Dave Burgess consulting and
• 38:56
  Can you talk a little bit about how that got
• 38:59
  started? You know, you've mentioned quite a few
• 39:01
  things here just about like you want professional
• 39:05
  development to be good. So You know you have
• 39:08
  the publishing and the PD. So can you talk a
• 39:12
  little bit about? what you what your goals are
• 39:15
  with Dave Burgess consulting ultimately to influence
• 39:18
  other educators around the world? Yeah, so I
• 39:22
  mean, that's what I'm most excited about. Now,
• 39:23
  of course, I'm still excited, as you can tell
• 39:25
  about my message. But really, the main primary
• 39:28
  focus right now is amplifying the voices of other
• 39:30
  educators and really finding people that are
• 39:32
  doing cool and amazing stuff in the world and
• 39:35
  helping them spread their messages. And again,
• 39:37
  it goes back to the whole idea. Like I didn't
• 39:38
  try to write the encyclopedia teaching. I know
• 39:40
  I didn't tell the whole story. There's lots of
• 39:42
  other people doing amazing stuff. And how can
• 39:45
  I use my platform? my skill set to help them
• 39:51
  spread their messages. For example, with the
• 39:54
  educational technology. Matt Miller wrote a whole
• 39:58
  book for me called Tech Like a Pirate. He took
• 40:01
  one quote from my book, which is one of the key
• 40:04
  quotes of the book. Don't just teach a lesson,
• 40:07
  create an experience. Lessons are easily forgotten,
• 40:10
  but experiences live forever. That's how I say
• 40:12
  it in the book. And then he based a whole book
• 40:14
  about like, how can you create experiences using
• 40:17
  technology? Right. And I have other people who
• 40:20
  have done ed tech books on different subjects,
• 40:22
  all that kind of stuff like that. So for me,
• 40:25
  the real focus now has been in rather than doubling
• 40:29
  down and keep trying to write myself and like,
• 40:32
  what's this? How can I say that a different way?
• 40:34
  I'm not going to teach like a buccaneer. I'm
• 40:38
  not going to just keep creating different things
• 40:40
  like that and say the same message. I'm really
• 40:43
  focused in on finding other people doing amazing
• 40:45
  stuff and helping them spread their messages.
• 40:48
  And that's been Dave Burgess Consulting. It's
• 40:50
  been super fun, not only because I feel like
• 40:53
  it makes an impact, but look at all these cool
• 40:56
  people I get to work with, too. So it's been
• 40:58
  a great thing. You know, as I'm sitting here
• 41:01
  in my office at my desk and I'm looking up at
• 41:04
  a bookshelf that I have up above my computer,
• 41:07
  I see several different. Dave Burgess Publishing
• 41:10
  Books. You've had an amazing, I mean, I don't
• 41:13
  know, I could point out a couple of them. I have
• 41:16
  one from John Spencer and A .J. Giuliani. I have
• 41:21
  one from Joy Kerr. I've got one from Katie Martin.
• 41:26
  And a couple of others I think that are up there
• 41:28
  too. I just can't read the names. My eyes aren't
• 41:30
  getting as good. And what's that? Yeah, Vicki
• 41:32
  Keene as well. Yeah, yeah. What's it like to
• 41:40
  work with some of these emerging people that
• 41:45
  have this idea and they just need a promoter,
• 41:48
  they need a big cheerleader that can be in their
• 41:51
  corner and help bring their ideas, their vision
• 41:54
  onto the pages of a published piece of work?
• 41:59
  It's absolutely incredible. I mean, these, these
• 42:01
  people that you mentioned in many moments, they're
• 42:04
  amazing, right? They're doing incredible work.
• 42:06
  And, um, what we're really focused on is allowing
• 42:10
  them to tell their message in the way that they
• 42:12
  want to tell it. And we always, again, I use
• 42:14
  that word manifesto of my thing. That's what
• 42:16
  every single author that works for DBC, we always
• 42:19
  tell them the same thing, like, write your manifesto.
• 42:22
  Like, write, um, like if you could give a Ted
• 42:24
  talk next week, this would be your Ted talk.
• 42:26
  That's what we want. If you could give a keynote
• 42:29
  at the biggest conference in the nation, if you
• 42:30
  could give a keynote at ISTE, this would be your
• 42:33
  keynote. This is the kind of thing that after
• 42:35
  you're done speaking, you would just want to
• 42:37
  slam the mic down and break it because who the
• 42:39
  heck is going to step on the stage after what
• 42:41
  you just said? You just crushed it. And the next
• 42:43
  speaker is peeking behind the curtain going like,
• 42:45
  I don't even want to go out. I don't even want
• 42:46
  to follow that. But then here's the problem.
• 42:50
  That same person that could be so passionate
• 42:52
  about their message They'll sit down on the computer
• 42:54
  and now all of a sudden they feel they have to
• 42:56
  be very professional formal academic because
• 42:58
  a book is so serious right right and to us the
• 43:02
  two dimensional written page of a book, it already
• 43:04
  sucks out all that intonation and flexion and
• 43:07
  things like that. So you have to, as a writer,
• 43:09
  go almost over the top to bring that same sort
• 43:11
  of passionate impact into it, right? And so we
• 43:13
  say like, you know, don't, don't shave off the
• 43:15
  rough edges for us. Say this just as strongly
• 43:18
  as you want to say it. Don't worry if it offends
• 43:20
  somebody because like if it defends them, it's
• 43:22
  not for them, like write the book for your people,
• 43:24
  you know, and so we want them to like manifest
• 43:28
  the word that gets a bad rap. because when you
• 43:31
  usually hear that word, it's like when a serial
• 43:35
  killer leaves one behind. They say, like, hey,
• 43:37
  he killed 12 people and left a manifesto in his
• 43:40
  mom's basement or something like that, right?
• 43:44
  But we look at it in a positive sense. This is
• 43:45
  your mic drop. This is your moment. This is like,
• 43:47
  if you could say anything to the world about
• 43:49
  education, what do you want to say? And so we
• 43:51
  like people that have a manifesto inside of them.
• 43:53
  And what we do is help them free them to tell
• 43:55
  it and then give them a platform to spread it.
• 43:58
  And also, creative control, intellectual property
• 44:02
  rights, plus a royalty structure that is fair
• 44:06
  for the fact that they're the one, it's their
• 44:09
  ideas and they're out speaking, they're out doing
• 44:12
  these things. And like, that was like how it
• 44:15
  all started for me. I got offered a publishing
• 44:16
  contract early on. I went straight into my hotel.
• 44:20
  It was happening at a conference in Washington
• 44:22
  DC, an NCSS conference, National Council of Social
• 44:24
  Studies. And they sat in my session. They met
• 44:27
  me in the coffee shop at the hotel afterwards,
• 44:28
  and they offered me a publishing contract. I
• 44:30
  went straight up into my hotel room, and I googled
• 44:32
  publishing contracts because I thought they were
• 44:34
  trying to cheat me. And when I googled publishing
• 44:37
  contracts, I came to find out they're not trying
• 44:39
  to cheat me. That's exactly what they look like.
• 44:41
  And to me, the only thing missing was a ski mask
• 44:43
  and a gun. I was like, what a second. I'm going
• 44:45
  to write this book. It's my intellectual property.
• 44:47
  I'm going to travel around and speak about it.
• 44:48
  I'm going to build a social media platform. And
• 44:51
  you make how much money? And I make how much
• 44:53
  money? It just didn't make any sense to me. And
• 44:55
  they wanted to take creative control of my project.
• 44:57
  They wanted to take out the edgy parts. They
• 44:59
  wanted to take out the rants, the overemphasis
• 45:01
  on standardized tests, all these kind of things
• 45:02
  like this. And that was not the book I wanted
• 45:04
  to write. And so what I did with Dave Burgess
• 45:09
  Consulting is I took all the things that were
• 45:11
  bothering me about the traditional publishing
• 45:13
  world and tried to get rid of them. take all
• 45:17
  the things that I loved about the self publishing
• 45:19
  world, but get rid of all the things I hated
• 45:20
  about that and try to get rid of them and like
• 45:23
  try to keep like the best of the traditional
• 45:25
  publishing world, the best of self publishing
• 45:26
  and try to create this hybrid model in the middle.
• 45:29
  And that's kind of hopefully what we've done
• 45:31
  is where you get this royalty structure that's
• 45:34
  super author friendly, you get this intellectual
• 45:36
  property rights, you get all these different
• 45:37
  things, but you also have a platform and editor
• 45:42
  and like cover design, you have also have all
• 45:44
  the traditional publishing stuff too. And I think
• 45:48
  what you're saying here definitely shines through
• 45:49
  because when I I've seen in person present like
• 45:52
  George Kuros and I've seen Matt Miller in fact
• 45:55
  Matt Miller is gonna be coming to Minnesota here
• 45:57
  in January and I'll get a chance to see him again
• 46:00
  and even Katie Martin and John Spencer AJ Giuliani
• 46:04
  I've seen all of them you know present about
• 46:07
  content of their work and I can tell that's authentically
• 46:12
  them that is not something that they've had you
• 46:14
  know the collar put on in the leash pull back
• 46:16
  on them like you know they're they're true to
• 46:20
  the messages that they put on paper you know
• 46:23
  which I think is pretty awesome that they're
• 46:25
  able to do that underneath your umbrella right
• 46:28
  here's the thing you could take a lot of education
• 46:30
  books today you can spread them out on the table
• 46:31
  and you could change the names on the bottom
• 46:34
  of them and it wouldn't even matter because that
• 46:37
  person is not in that book it's written third
• 46:39
  -person formal academic right but if you take
• 46:43
  a look at our line of books The idea of changing
• 46:46
  the name on the bottom of the book would be ridiculous.
• 46:48
  It'd be insane because our authors are inside
• 46:51
  of their books. You know, like I want, if you
• 46:53
  see me speak and then you go to the back of room
• 46:57
  and you buy the book, there's going to be a,
• 46:59
  it's going to be congruent. There's a match.
• 47:00
  You're going to hear my voice. When you're reading
• 47:02
  the book, you're going to be like, see a picture
• 47:04
  of me on the stage saying these things. Or if
• 47:06
  you read my book first and you come to see me,
• 47:09
  you're going to feel like, Oh my God, this is
• 47:10
  like the pop -up version of the book. Like, this
• 47:12
  is like, this is crazy. Right. And all these
• 47:15
  things are super important. And it's that weaving
• 47:17
  of your personal voice. Even your stories might
• 47:20
  even be outside of education, but somehow influenced
• 47:22
  your message. Put it in the book. Put it in the
• 47:24
  book. I had this conversation with George Kuros,
• 47:27
  where he was offered a contract. And they wanted
• 47:31
  him to write an Ed Tech book. He thought his
• 47:33
  message was bigger than just Ed Tech. And it
• 47:38
  wasn't about the tools. It was something that
• 47:40
  was larger. And he told me the story about his
• 47:45
  father, like his father immigrating from Greece
• 47:49
  to Canada to give his family opportunity and
• 47:54
  all that kind of stuff like this. And I remember
• 47:56
  telling him, like, that's the start of your book
• 47:58
  right there. You got to talk about your father.
• 48:00
  Well, a lot of companies would be like, what
• 48:02
  is this story about your father? This is an education,
• 48:04
  like a professional development book. They don't
• 48:06
  want to hear about your father. everybody wants
• 48:08
  to hear about the father, right? Everybody wants
• 48:10
  to hear that personal story. And so, you know,
• 48:14
  if you'll see DBC books, sometimes you'll see
• 48:16
  this weird thing, like maybe people are reading
• 48:17
  them on the beach over the summer. Like, people
• 48:21
  don't read education books on the beach. They'll
• 48:24
  read one of our books on the beach because it's
• 48:26
  like a, you feel like you're, and then you go
• 48:28
  up and you meet someone at a conference, you
• 48:30
  can just act like you already know them because
• 48:32
  they're, voice and message was already woven
• 48:35
  through the pages of the book that you already
• 48:36
  feel like you know them. And a lot of education
• 48:38
  books aren't like that, but we really do everything
• 48:41
  we can to try to make it feel like that. And
• 48:43
  I can confirm I was reading AI Optimism, Becky
• 48:46
  Keene's book, as I'm laying in a lounge chair
• 48:50
  beside the pool when my family was on vacation
• 48:52
  this last summer. There we go. I love it. Dave,
• 48:57
  I wanna just move into the AI space a little
• 49:00
  bit as one of our last topics here before we
• 49:02
  get into the lightning round. Obviously it's
• 49:05
  a huge topic. Are you trying to tease the lightning
• 49:07
  round coming up here as like a big moment that
• 49:10
  we need to prepare for? The lightning round is
• 49:13
  great. Yeah, got it. It's gonna be good. But
• 49:15
  as far as the AI conversations go, it's a massive
• 49:21
  topic. There's a lot of talk about So much of
• 49:26
  what you've been talking about in your work is
• 49:29
  it's very creative and there's a lot of encouraging
• 49:33
  teacher voice into lesson building and all these
• 49:38
  opportunities for creativity. And one of the
• 49:41
  big concerns with AI, right, is it's... the risk
• 49:47
  of losing your own personality or your own voice
• 49:50
  when you're using it. And for teachers and students
• 49:53
  and really anybody who uses it, right, there's
• 49:55
  a risk there. So I'm wondering if you can kind
• 49:58
  of talk about that a little bit. And then also
• 50:02
  talk about what kind of, knowing your message,
• 50:06
  what kind of mindset do you think teachers coming
• 50:09
  into the field new should have to, you know,
• 50:13
  if they're gonna use AI, how can they maintain
• 50:17
  engagement with students? Maybe, you know, AI
• 50:20
  offers more opportunities for them to spend more
• 50:24
  time on those teach like a pirate methods. But
• 50:27
  if it's kind of a two part question, if you could
• 50:29
  talk a little bit about the risks of losing creativity
• 50:33
  and how concerned you are about that. And then
• 50:37
  also just talking about new teachers coming into
• 50:39
  the field, maintaining engagement while also
• 50:42
  utilizing this technology. Yeah, so on the creativity
• 50:46
  piece I'm I am less concerned about the loss
• 50:49
  of creativity and I think like like anything
• 50:51
  it's not the tool but it's how you use it and
• 50:54
  that the whether you're Abusing the tool or whether
• 50:58
  you're using the tool, right? And so I think
• 51:01
  that AI offers unbelievable opportunities to
• 51:04
  actually spark creativity and to increase creativity
• 51:07
  and again it goes back to that using it as a
• 51:09
  brainstorming partner it's the greatest brainstorming
• 51:10
  these like It's amazing what it can do. And it
• 51:14
  can do it so quickly, and it can spark. Now,
• 51:18
  if you're asking it for answers, and then you're
• 51:22
  just taking those answers and walking away with
• 51:23
  them, that's different, right? But if you're
• 51:24
  using it more as a, you're using your prompt
• 51:27
  to help it give you ideas and to maybe expand
• 51:30
  on your ideas, like, here's what I'm thinking,
• 51:33
  and like. Asking it to take it a step further
• 51:36
  and give you other I think that's an incredible
• 51:38
  opportunity and then you really hit on another
• 51:40
  topic too, which is that I think that another
• 51:44
  primary use of AI is going to be take away some
• 51:48
  of the time that we use to spend on some very
• 51:51
  Low level type activities that now we're going
• 51:55
  to be able to do much quicker and it's going
• 51:56
  to free up opportunities for us to spend more
• 51:59
  time as creators and artists and innovators,
• 52:04
  right? And so I mean, I see this all the time
• 52:08
  in my work. Somebody asked me for this is a this
• 52:12
  is a very obvious answer that people talk about
• 52:14
  it's kind of cliche, but like letters of recommendation.
• 52:19
  Like, oh my god, the amount of time I used to
• 52:22
  put into letters of recommendation and all that
• 52:24
  kind of stuff like this easiest thing in the
• 52:25
  world now, right? And I can still personalize
• 52:28
  it, I can still make sure that it fits this particular
• 52:29
  kid. But some of the heavy lifting is taken away
• 52:34
  from you, right? And that's more time that can
• 52:38
  be spent lesson planning or creating or innovating
• 52:40
  or talking and looking for new authors or whatever
• 52:42
  it might be. So I just put out a book by Rich
• 52:46
  Chiz that has some stuff to do with this. He
• 52:48
  put out a book called Autopilot. And kind of
• 52:53
  the tagline is like our like are you running
• 52:56
  the school or is the school running you? It's
• 52:58
  for educational leaders. And it's about how to
• 53:00
  streamline workflow through creating systems,
• 53:03
  one of which incorporates, like some of that
• 53:05
  stuff incorporates AI. So how are you using AI
• 53:08
  to do some of that low level work, that more
• 53:12
  menial stuff that's just like really super time
• 53:14
  consuming? And then how are you using it as a
• 53:17
  brainstormer to actually spark creativity and
• 53:20
  to be more creative as opposed to like taking
• 53:23
  that out of your hands? I'm not worried about
• 53:26
  AI and creativity at all, actually. I am, as
• 53:29
  Becky would say, an AI optimist. Great. Well,
• 53:34
  yeah, we'll start getting into our lightning
• 53:36
  round questions. These are meant to be, we do
• 53:38
  these at the end of our podcast, so they're meant
• 53:40
  to be fun questions. You could give one word
• 53:43
  answers or whatever you feel is appropriate to
• 53:46
  answer the question the way that you want to.
• 53:49
  We're just going to go through them real quick.
• 53:51
  uh and get your answer on some of these so um
• 53:54
  the pressure is on yes in the hot seat okay so
• 54:00
  in the dave burges cinematic universe what is
• 54:03
  your walk -on playlist or hit when you take the
• 54:06
  stage what are people listening to my walk -on
• 54:10
  song okay so um here here is an intro to a song
• 54:17
  that gets me like If I was walking on stage and
• 54:21
  this was playing, I'd be ready to burn that place
• 54:25
  down. And it's a moment of clarity by Jay Z.
• 54:31
  If you play the beginning of that song and you're
• 54:33
  not ready to go knock a wall down, like if you
• 54:35
  picture yourself walking on stage with that,
• 54:37
  oh my God. But now I have to add this. I would
• 54:41
  need the instrumental. because it would have
• 54:45
  a couple words in that intro that would not be
• 54:48
  appropriate for me to use while I'm walking on
• 54:50
  stage. So the instrumental opening of Moment
• 54:54
  of Clarity by Jay -Z, that's the one. All right,
• 54:58
  good. Favorite pirate from books, movies, or
• 55:02
  pop culture, and what that pirate would be like
• 55:05
  as a classroom teacher. So this is almost embarrassing
• 55:09
  because it's so, like I feel like this is just
• 55:12
  like the cliche answer. But I mean, it's hard
• 55:15
  to go against Jack Sparrow. And how he would
• 55:19
  be as a teacher is like an it would be utter
• 55:22
  chaos and a disaster, I have a feeling. But it
• 55:25
  would also be one of the more enjoyable classes
• 55:27
  that kids have ever been through in their life.
• 55:29
  And maybe there might be some people that thought
• 55:31
  that about my class too. But Yeah, and I don't
• 55:36
  know if you guys know this, but a very strange
• 55:38
  thing happened to me. Sorry, I'm gonna go outside
• 55:40
  of lightning and just tell you. That's part of
• 55:42
  it. We just don't know where these stories will
• 55:44
  lead sometimes, you know? Okay, well, I'm gonna
• 55:46
  tell you something that to me is like the coolest
• 55:48
  thing in the world. And some people like, I don't
• 55:51
  know, maybe other people will agree. But I got,
• 55:57
  it's been over a little over a year now, I got
• 55:59
  an email. And it said that I had been nominated
• 56:02
  for the International Pirate Hall of Fame. And
• 56:05
  when I got that email, I didn't even know there
• 56:07
  wasn't an International Pirate Hall of Fame,
• 56:08
  right? And so I googled it. I thought someone
• 56:09
  was trying to prank me, right? And so I googled
• 56:12
  it. It's a real thing. And so I did all the paperwork.
• 56:14
  I filled out the paperwork stuff for the nomination
• 56:16
  and turned it all in. And I just waited week
• 56:18
  after week after week waiting. And they were
• 56:20
  announcing them week by week. So I am a 2023
• 56:25
  inductee into the International Pirate Hall of
• 56:28
  Fame, which came out, that was released in 2024,
• 56:31
  but it's a 2023 inductee in International Pirate
• 56:34
  Hall of Fame. And other people that are in there,
• 56:39
  like people say like, who else is in that? You
• 56:41
  know, like Johnny Depp. is in the International
• 56:43
  Pirate Hall of Fame with me. And some of the
• 56:46
  other characters from Pirates of the Caribbean
• 56:48
  also, like Blackbeard, like real pirates, are
• 56:51
  in the International Pirate Hall of Fame. And
• 56:53
  also people like Robert Louis Stevenson, who
• 56:56
  wrote Treasure Island, is in the International
• 56:58
  Pirate Hall of Fame. And there's people that
• 57:01
  maybe do famous pirate music, like shanties and
• 57:04
  stuff like that, or reenactors, or people that
• 57:07
  have done pirate. um tourists like boats like
• 57:11
  you know like for years and years and years have
• 57:13
  a whole industry of like pirate tourism and stuff
• 57:15
  like that and so yeah so i'm in the international
• 57:18
  pirate hall of fame my only my only thing i haven't
• 57:21
  decided yet is whether or not i should put it
• 57:22
  on my dating app it might be a red flag i don't
• 57:27
  know it could be one thing about the uh the Jack
• 57:31
  Sparrow thing is he might be trying to find rum
• 57:34
  all the time when he's supposed to be teaching,
• 57:36
  right? Yeah, that could be a problem too. I am
• 57:38
  a very odd. There's two things that make me an
• 57:40
  extraordinary odd pirate. One is that I've never
• 57:43
  had a sip of alcohol in my entire life. It's
• 57:45
  just like this weird, crazy thing about me. I've
• 57:47
  never had one single sip of alcohol. So I am
• 57:50
  a completely sober pirate. And then the other
• 57:53
  thing is, and this is, so you're getting like
• 57:56
  some scoop here, which I shouldn't share, but
• 57:58
  this is really embarrassing. But I have a real
• 58:02
  problem with getting seasick. So I'm a pirate
• 58:06
  who has a real problem with seasickness. That's
• 58:08
  embarrassing to say, but it's the truth. There's
• 58:12
  room for all sorts of pirates everywhere. That's
• 58:14
  right. I'm like a land pirate. So Dave, if you
• 58:19
  could drop into any teacher's classroom in history,
• 58:22
  whether real or fictional, just for one day of
• 58:26
  co -teaching with that person, who would you
• 58:28
  pick and why? Yeah, so this is a tough one. I'm
• 58:34
  gonna give you an answer Not meant to be sentimental
• 58:40
  but maybe it is and so I'm gonna say my father
• 58:44
  and So my father has passed but he was a professor
• 58:48
  at San Diego State University. He was a health
• 58:51
  science professor there and I've heard stories
• 58:55
  about my father's class from people who've had
• 58:57
  him as students and stuff like that, but never
• 58:59
  one single time I was pretty young when he was
• 59:02
  teaching there. I've never, I never saw my father
• 59:05
  teach. And so like I've always been curious about
• 59:08
  like what was his personality like in class?
• 59:11
  Is any of like what I do something like that
• 59:13
  I would recognize in what he did or what was
• 59:15
  that influence? And so I would love to co -teach
• 59:18
  with my father and see what his classroom was
• 59:20
  like at San Diego State University. All right,
• 59:25
  the next one is what's one lesson or stunt you
• 59:28
  tried that totally bombed and what did you learn
• 59:30
  from it? Oh my gosh there's so many to choose
• 59:32
  from. That's by the way one of the things I say
• 59:35
  in my creativity workshop I say I can guarantee
• 59:38
  you I've had more disasters in my classroom than
• 59:40
  anyone sitting here. Not just lessons that weren't
• 59:43
  engaging, I've had those too. I'm talking disasters.
• 59:45
  I have been injured during lessons before. I've
• 59:47
  had students injured during lessons before. I've
• 59:49
  had to sit in my principal's office and explain
• 59:51
  why I had an open pole painting flame raging
• 59:53
  in the classroom. I've had so many disasters
• 59:57
  in my classroom. I think that I'm going to, I'll
• 1:00:02
  tell you this one. I had a lesson on the Orson
• 1:00:08
  Welles in 1938. um got on the radio and had a
• 1:00:15
  little like in the midst of another show started
• 1:00:18
  to release news flashes as if they were real
• 1:00:22
  that there there was an alien invasion and the
• 1:00:26
  earth was being invaded and it was so real for
• 1:00:32
  people that it created widespread panic there's
• 1:00:36
  unbelievable stories about the panic that this
• 1:00:39
  created when Orson Welles did this on the radio
• 1:00:42
  And I thought this is, this is amazing. What
• 1:00:45
  an incredible way to hook kids into like the
• 1:00:47
  power, like the 1930s, the power of the radio.
• 1:00:50
  We're gonna talk about FDR and the fireside chats
• 1:00:53
  and what kind of impact like those fireside chats
• 1:00:55
  have about the shows. Like if you, people used
• 1:00:59
  to come home and watch the radio. Like as a family,
• 1:01:01
  you would watch, there was like shows. Like we
• 1:01:03
  had, we think of like drama, sitcom, thrillers,
• 1:01:05
  things like that. they're on the they're on the
• 1:01:07
  radio, right? And kids can't like understand
• 1:01:09
  that. So I was going to do this whole lesson
• 1:01:10
  around this war of the world thing. And I had
• 1:01:14
  accessorized it to all this. It was in the centerpiece
• 1:01:17
  of my lesson was going to be playing them that
• 1:01:21
  original broadcast. And I had nothing but behavior
• 1:01:25
  management issues. I had the lights off and there
• 1:01:27
  was the kids threw stuff in the room. There was
• 1:01:29
  people like, you know, it was horrible. Sent
• 1:01:32
  the kids out, next period came in, behavior management
• 1:01:35
  issues. I remember going to break and talking
• 1:01:37
  to my colleagues at break. I was furious. Like,
• 1:01:42
  do you know how much time I spent into this?
• 1:01:44
  I put the... And I was so furious. The next year,
• 1:01:48
  I'm a slow learner. I'm like, you know what?
• 1:01:51
  Just didn't do enough teach like a pirate strategies
• 1:01:53
  to it like that. I'm gonna this next year I'm
• 1:01:56
  gonna come dress like an alien. I'm going to
• 1:01:58
  like have spaceship stuff all over the room I'm
• 1:02:01
  gonna have like I'm gonna say I had all these
• 1:02:02
  different things added to it that I Changed the
• 1:02:05
  whole room that they're walking into this other
• 1:02:07
  world, right? Behavior management issues problems
• 1:02:11
  had to stop the lesson partway through a couple
• 1:02:14
  periods because of the problems that were happening,
• 1:02:16
  right and Then it hit me The whole centerpiece
• 1:02:20
  of my lesson was bad. That radio show to today's
• 1:02:23
  kids, it's like pulling teeth. It's horrible.
• 1:02:26
  It's boring. They're not engaged by it. They
• 1:02:28
  didn't want to sit there on the ground and listen
• 1:02:31
  to this radio show in the dark. It's horrible,
• 1:02:34
  right? So despite all the teach like a pirate
• 1:02:37
  accessorizing of the lesson that I did, I had
• 1:02:41
  spoiled, back to that barbecue analogy, I had
• 1:02:44
  spoiled meat. It doesn't matter what kind of
• 1:02:47
  marinade you put on it, the meat spoil. If your
• 1:02:49
  content is not good, it doesn't matter how you
• 1:02:52
  accessorize it. And by the way, the way that
• 1:02:55
  I fixed that is the next year is what I did is
• 1:02:59
  have students create radio broadcasts. And I
• 1:03:03
  would tell them about how they used to have to
• 1:03:04
  make all their own sound effects in the studio.
• 1:03:06
  This was a true thing. They would be in the studio
• 1:03:08
  and the actors would have to make all the sound
• 1:03:09
  effects and do different things and create the
• 1:03:11
  whole scene, right? And so I had a little office
• 1:03:14
  area that was a little behind a door. And then
• 1:03:18
  the kids would go into the office area as a group,
• 1:03:20
  their little group. And they would broadcast
• 1:03:23
  to the class their radio show. And we'd be in
• 1:03:27
  the class listening. And it was hilarious, fun,
• 1:03:30
  collaborative, creative. And so I took a lesson
• 1:03:33
  that was horrible, that I thought I could accessorize
• 1:03:35
  to be something good. And when I empowered kids
• 1:03:38
  to be creators, and innovators and to collaborate
• 1:03:42
  with each other, all of a sudden that lesson
• 1:03:45
  killed. And so it shows you that sometimes it's
• 1:03:48
  not about the Teach Like I'm a Hire Hooks, sometimes
• 1:03:50
  it's about letting kids collaborate, connect
• 1:03:52
  and create and own their learning. That sounds
• 1:03:56
  awesome. All right, David, I'm going to punt
• 1:03:59
  on the last one here and kind of pivot. Yeah,
• 1:04:01
  you're like, man, these are very quick fire,
• 1:04:03
  dude. Yeah, well, OK, here's the last one, coach.
• 1:04:06
  And, you know, it's halftime. or you know no
• 1:04:09
  less than that you know you've you're down you're
• 1:04:13
  down three points two points and your team is
• 1:04:17
  just called time out you got the ball what kind
• 1:04:19
  of an inbound player are you going to run in
• 1:04:22
  order to score that game -winning basket the
• 1:04:24
  most dangerous person on an inbound play is the
• 1:04:26
  person throwing the ball in so i'm immediately
• 1:04:29
  going to be thinking about how i'm going to get
• 1:04:32
  a return the I'm going to have my best shooter
• 1:04:35
  in bounding the ball. It's going to get the ball
• 1:04:37
  in and we're going to eventually try to run him
• 1:04:40
  off of a pick like they always forget about the
• 1:04:42
  inbounder. So I'm going to be trying to take
• 1:04:44
  advantage of the fact that the focus always goes
• 1:04:46
  to where the pass is and the last person they're
• 1:04:48
  thinking about guarding is the person throwing
• 1:04:49
  the ball in bounds. So that's how we're going
• 1:04:51
  to get that last that last second three. Sounds
• 1:04:54
  awesome. I think you won the game. Thank you.
• 1:04:59
  Now they have to execute though. They have to
• 1:05:00
  hit it. Yeah, there's still that. I can get them
• 1:05:03
  in the right place. They got to hit the shot.
• 1:05:05
  It's kind of like teaching. Well, Dave, we'd
• 1:05:09
  like to thank you for joining us. It's been great
• 1:05:11
  to listen to your adventures over your years
• 1:05:15
  and the expertise that you have and can offer
• 1:05:18
  teachers that are listening to the podcast and
• 1:05:21
  to us as well. It's insightful for us to be able
• 1:05:24
  to chat with you. So thank you for joining us
• 1:05:28
  and hopefully we'll see you around at some point
• 1:05:30
  here, too. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for
• 1:05:32
  having me on the show. I really appreciate it.
• 1:05:34
  Thanks for listening to Integrate This. Want
• 1:05:37
  to take your learning further? Head over to our
• 1:05:39
  YouTube channel for quick tutorials, deep dives,
• 1:05:42
  and more EdTech tips you can use right away.
• 1:05:46
  Don't forget to subscribe and catch new podcast
• 1:05:48
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  wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time,
• 1:05:56
  keep exploring, keep innovating, and keep integrating
• 1:05:59
  this.