Latest / Nightmare Success In and Out / The American Dream to Prison to National Speaker - Walt Pavlo

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The American Dream to Prison to National Speaker - Walt Pavlo · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:01
What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
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Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy. Welcome to the Nightmare Success
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In and Out podcast, where we explore how to overcome your
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fears and nightmares that set yourself free.
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We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
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Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
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These stories can be inspiring, sometimes.
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Sad. There's some humor, but
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hopefully you can come away with a nugget of something that'll
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help you knock down some of the prisms you built up in your own
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mind. All right.
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Welcome back, nightmare success, listeners.
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It's where you come, what happens when your worst fear
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becomes your reality? How do you adapt, survive,
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overcome, set yourself free? Well, I have really been excited
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about this interview because Walt Pablo is one of those guys
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that for me personally, I just, I so much admire what he's done
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with his life because he went through his nightmare, but what
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he's done with his life after he went through his nightmare.
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I was going to read you something on his description of
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his book and his book is called Stolen Without a Gun and I'm
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just getting into that. I've just started reading it
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last few days while I was riding my bike, riding my stationary
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bike. I can't really do that by
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reading while I'm riding my bike outside.
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But anyway, I I want to read this.
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This is just a piece of the description of his book.
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While Pablo was a young MBA rising quickly through the
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finance ranks at the nation's second largest telecom company
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as MCI, with a beautiful wife, two kids and a promising career,
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he epitomized the American dream.
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Pablo's life took a dark turn when he became a willing
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participant and the company's efforts to hide from investors
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and potential acquires a mountain of bad debt run up by
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mobsters and other unsavory customers.
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That drew me in. I'm I'm reading that one even.
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On the bike, even on the Bike walls, made appearances on the
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Today Show of ABC Nightline, A contributor to Forbes magazine,
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CNBC, and Fox Business. Walt's an incredible speaker.
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He's a nationally recognized keynote speaker who's spoken at
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top ranked MBA schools, the US Attorney's Office, the FBI, the
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Big Four, accounting firms, law schools and other major
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corporations across the United States.
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Like I said, he's got the book stolen without a gun.
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He's the president and Co founder of Prisonology.
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I can't wait to unpack all this with Walt, but I first want to
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3:19
Welcome in, Walt, Pablo. How are you?
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Thank you. It's a good, it's a pleasure to
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be here. You know.
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Nightmare, success. I love the name, you know,
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because it's very. It's very true.
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Well, I mean it's very true. And it's it it it explains your
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life, you know, in your life story of what you you lived.
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And the other thing I think about nightmare success is that
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you went through your nightmare and you had to step into your
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fears and all the other stuff of the unknowns of getting out of
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prison and dealing with being an ex felon.
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How in the world do you get started again?
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And and I think that's the encouraging thing about your
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story, Walt, is and I think that's why people listen to this
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show is it's not a prison show. It's a show about hope.
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How do you get unstuck? How do you get to the next step?
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And I I think one of the interesting things about your
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story, Walt, is, you know, you talk about growing up as a, you
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know, a Catholic kid that had a good family growing up.
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Tell us a little about your life as a kid growing up and where
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you were and what you were doing and mom and dad and all that.
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Yeah, we know we're middle class family and you know, and
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everything went well. But I have two, two brothers
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that are, you know, one's a couple of years younger, one's
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10 years younger. All have been successful.
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All we're you know we were all athletes and.
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Really participated in sports and academics and and you know
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really you know detention wasn't something that was in our
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vocabulary. So you know I was just lucky 2
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parents and a lot of family around and and and you know
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lived in great neighborhoods with good people and mentors
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around the coaches, teachers you know members of the you know.
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Faith community that were you know it was just all positive.
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There was nothing negative that went on when I was you know when
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I was young. You know and and you know in
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some ways Brent those are the things that that that didn't
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prepare me in. In some ways for the the way
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that I would see the world later is that I had already had always
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sort of had success in my life, had good people, things,
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adversity and went through. I could work my way through
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successfully and then going to the MCI was.
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Total. I was a loser.
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I was a total loser. You know, I I I couldn't.
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I couldn't find. I couldn't find right.
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But let's talk about that though, Wall, because you, when
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you went into MCII, think one of the things that you talk about
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that I think I think people would find somewhat fascinating
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is, is that you were in a very regulated world before you went
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to MCI. You were with Goodyear, you were
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with some other companies that big companies people know.
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And you had at a very young age done well for yourself.
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And I think you'd move down to Atlanta.
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You've kind of had the things that people want in life.
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And then you welcomed yourself into the wild, Wild West of
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telecommunications, and that wasn't regulated, which had to
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be kind of strange for you to go from a highly regulated world to
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everything's free game. No, I think it it definitely
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was. But that was the reason that we
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were recruited to come to MCI was that we came from different
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backgrounds. I mean they they hired people
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from everything. I mean people who worked in
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funeral parlors, do business to whatever.
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It's just entrepreneurs, you know?
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It was, yeah. Can you sell, can you, do you
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believe in this? You know, in this model that
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we're creating that telecom is not just one company anymore,
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not just AT&T and? Bring whatever you've learned in
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structure from all these other companies and experience and
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help us over here because we're deregulated and we we don't want
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to be regulated. We want to be free.
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But we also realize we need some organization.
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We need to transition from this entrepreneurs, you know,
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entrepreneurial company to you know a publicly traded company.
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Well, I think if if I remember right and I, I could be wrong a
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little bit on the years here, but it it struck me that I kind
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of think you were like 3132 years old handling over a
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billion dollars in receivables. Is that kind of the time period
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of of your life and that world with with the MCI in that amount
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of dollars? First of all the dollar amounts
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don't even I I I think about them today and they seem they
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seem large even for back then but they were just.
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Ones and zeros, right. They were, you know, just, you
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know, I don't think that I thought about it that much,
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about how much money it was. If I would, if I don't, probably
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couldn't have gone into work that day.
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You know, it was just after a while you just look at it, say
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you know it's the customer name, it's a dollar amount and you
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know and there's a job that's got to be done.
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One of the things that I we were talking about this before you
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got on well before we hit the record button.
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I think what draws people into your story, and I think the
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reason why you've been so successful telling your story is
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it kind of feels like it could be me.
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It kind of feels like when you listen to it.
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The guy next door was in this situation and he could go left
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or he could go right. And can you explain a little bit
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about how that happened as far as the company's doing?
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There's all kinds of money coming in, but they also have
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bad debt. People aren't paying and
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everybody's looking for good news and good news has been
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spilling in all over the place and and Walt you're part of the
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good news you're you're bringing in and you know all these and
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the other pieces of it too which I didn't really understand until
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I really kind of got in the depth of of reading and
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researching you. There was a lot of money in the
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small businesses, not necessarily the, the gigantic
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businesses you were actually going after and and basically
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negotiating, recruiting these small businesses to take you
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know gigantic margins, but then they stopped paying.
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Yeah. And that was, you know that was
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the exciting part about working for our company.
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We, you know, we sold telecom services to the large companies
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AT&T, Sprint, Worldcom and they were just buying 10s of millions
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and hundreds of 1,000,000 each month.
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But the real excitement in telecom was from additional
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content. Just like, you know, it'd be the
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equivalent of like apps today, right?
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You know, the on a platform. But people were creating
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different products and prepaid calling cards, telling
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somebody's fortune, giving them gambling advice.
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Sex content 1900, Yeah. 1900 yeah, you know get your fortune
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told. I mean, these were.
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Novel, but like to the consumer were amazing products that all
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of a sudden they could now they could purchase.
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And the people, you know, the, the organizations that got
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involved in these businesses were a little less than, you
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know, good business people. They were hucksters.
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And so now they're able to make, you know, significant amounts of
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money off of telecom services. They can have somebody talk
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talking to them for, you know, just a few.
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Pennies per minute, but can charge 5 and $6 per minute, you
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know, and that that makes it really you can make a lot of
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money and that's what they were doing.
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They were making a lot of money, but they, you know, but at the
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same time they just said, you know, why should I be paying
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this big telecom company, you know, for, you know, it's I got
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this unique product and they were growing like this and they
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you need money to grow and so you take some of that money off
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the table. And that's what they were doing
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and they were reinvesting in their company or adding to
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marketing or giving themselves bonuses or buying cars and boats
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and all this other stuff. And that becomes our problem,
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you know, and that's that's where I had to do go out and
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collect that money to bring it into the telecom company.
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But it it was much harder. It was you know, it was out of
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control and you know and and it was just impossible for us to
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collect money from these guys. Well, that's what it sounded
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like. It just sounded like you were
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almost like dropping a, you know, a penny into the ocean and
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and trying to to to recover all that, but.
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Right. And the and the dollars were
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just huge quick, you know I mean and it's just like how much does
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this company owe you 10 million, how much is this company 3
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million, I mean we were throwing around numbers and like we're
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never going to see this, you know this again and.
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You know, that's where I I, you know, I have an engineering
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degree in a in an MBA, in finance.
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So I'm not an accountant but I knew how the numbers work and
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then you know eventually there had to be a day of reckoning
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when you just say hey all these companies aren't going to pay
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us. But there was also all these
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rules where you could, you know, kind of massage and fix things,
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you know, for a period of time and.
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What you hope is that the day of reconciliation never comes.
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But you know it always. It always does.
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I'll give the book away. The day of reconciliation always
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comes well and and I think there there's some things that were
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happening, Walt, that are just part of the business world.
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Like you had people that owed you 3 or $4 million and you did
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a promissory note with him and said you didn't have to pay for
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a while. Those were things that were just
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going on and that was part of the deal.
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Whereas I I mean I can see also and as you tell your story and
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other venues that your feeling is that, gosh, we've got so much
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money coming in, you know making and like you said, it's not
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really cooking the books, it's helping them and helping them
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was also helping the company. And then you know the company
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does better, the shareholders do better, everybody does better.
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I can see how somebody could get wrapped up in that whole mantra
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of it's a team sport, We're all winning here, let's keep going.
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Every everybody wins and even the consumer wins.
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You know I mean very rarely and you know it's it's a unique
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industry in which the, you know somewhat telecom was somewhat
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regulated of. But the consumers winning,
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they're getting better products. The prices are going down.
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There's much more competition. The technology itself is
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improving, right? I mean, so you know, all these
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different things. I mean, we come from a
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generation where you couldn't call.
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Relatives in another state until it's not 8:00 yet.
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You know, you have to wait until you know.
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You realize you were rich. You could just call anybody
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anytime of the day. That's so true.
14:01
I forgot about that. But you know the tech, the
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technology was changing at the time and you know Sprint came on
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and said, hey, now we're going to you can start making your
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evening calls at 7 you know and everybody like wow how this
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revolutionary. But but that's what was
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happening. Prices are going down.
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Quality is going up. Different variety competition.
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So in that environment, when you're when you're cheating,
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who's, who's losing, right? I mean, the consumer's not
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they're, they're not complaining.
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They're not going to their Congress.
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Nobody's looking at stuff when you're winning.
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Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's easy everybody.
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And then and then everybody was winning.
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The same thing can be said about Enron.
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Sure, right. Everybody was winning.
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You know, price of energy is always a concern in our country.
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Now you got an innovative company that's making it
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cheaper. Making it cheaper for
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everywhere. They're buying it in Alaska and
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reselling it in Florida. And there's this art that that
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chemistry worked. They were doing things that made
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people like, wow, you know, this is doesn't have to be regulated.
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Prices can really be, you know, driven down and that's what
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we're seeing in telecom. So can you share this story,
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Walt, of that? Because in your moth speech you
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you talk about this guy that you come across and he tells you he
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gives you some sage advice about you know how you win and you're
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laying in bed one night and say fuck it, I think I'm going to do
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it. What can you lead us through
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that, that moment in time of how that all happened?
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Well, you know the the moment of sort of crossing the line to
15:34
benefit for myself came when you know this this guy.
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Sort of approaches me with the deal like we can make a lot of
15:40
money, you know, and it requires doing something illegal.
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We didn't say it like that but it was like you know this is you
15:48
know, but this is the way everything works.
15:50
Everybody cheats. Everybody does something to get
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ahead and and and I I looked at it at the moment and I said, you
15:56
know he's exactly right. I mean you you.
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I don't want to admit it, but it's you were seeing it.
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I've been seeing it. All the cheaters were winning
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and I'm, I'm a loser. You know, I'm playing by the
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book and you know, I can't keep up with these people that owe
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all this money. And I see them out with
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executives in my company and they owe, you know, our company
16:15
millions of dollars. So how can this?
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It's a world upside down and just like it doesn't make any
16:20
sense. So maybe I am the one that has
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seen it wrong and. You know, there's a part of me
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that, you know, logic sort of goes out the door and you're
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just saying, you know, I'm pissed.
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I'm angry at the way the world is the way that I'm seeing the
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world right now. And I don't know how to fix it.
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But if I do know that, if I, if I cheat, if I enter that world,
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I too will win. I can see it.
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I can see that I could do it. And then that was the, you know,
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that was a bit of my undo undoing was, you know, seeing
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that I could succeed. And and #2 more importantly,
16:55
succeeding and cheating. Yeah, right.
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It's, you know, it's one thing to to think that you can cheat
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and when it's another thing when you actually are cheating and
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winning. Well, and I, I, I, I think
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there's A, and I think there's a whole another layer of a story
17:08
there because you ended up getting money and being even
17:13
more successful, but you were incredibly stressed out,
17:18
incredibly not happy with this, this newfound wealth and this
17:26
newfound success. I think when you earn it it it's
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it's it's easier to enjoy you know, and and I I just wasn't
17:36
there and and it didn't provide the satisfaction that I thought
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it was going to. It was way too much pressure
17:42
involved in it and, you know, just thinking about how does
17:46
this end? You know, what's the end?
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What does the end look like? And look, I talk to a lot of
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guys that are involved in in white collar crimes and stuff
17:53
and they they don't know how it ends either.
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You know, that's, you know, it's like how do I jump off of this
17:58
thing, even if they feel like they're they're you know, well,
18:01
you know I did some things wrong but jeez, you know that this
18:05
seems like an extreme penalty to go to prison.
18:08
But you try to figure out like how do you, how do you end this
18:12
mess? And it usually ends.
18:15
Ends in a nightmare, right? It it, you know that's that's
18:18
how it ends. It has and you know to to the
18:21
point of the the show, it has to end.
18:23
It's it's madding if it doesn't end.
18:25
Even if you're an innocent, you have to think of a way this has
18:28
to come to an end and want to move on with my life at some
18:31
point. What was your what was your
18:33
thought? Because I think you had thought
18:35
that you had everything kind of deleted covered up.
18:39
Wasn't going to be something that would be a paper trail.
18:41
And then I think your boss calls you in and says, hey Walt,
18:45
something looks a little weird here.
18:47
Could you check it out? And then you know at that moment
18:50
that there might be issues for you what what?
18:56
What was going through your mind?
18:57
Would would that happen in the way it happened?
19:00
You're right though. I mean there's you know you can
19:01
go through you know I I went through looking at like all
19:04
right how can I cover up my true I don't want to get in trouble.
19:07
I mean, you know, and I think that I've covered everything,
19:11
but in my mind, I know that I have it.
19:14
I mean I know there's got to be something and so when when
19:16
confronted with something you know, that says, hey, let me you
19:20
know, can you. I've got to ask you a question
19:21
about such and such. That's just a few.
19:24
You know it's just your your nightmare come true.
19:26
I've been caught. I don't I don't know how to
19:29
answer for this and I don't know that I want to because I know
19:32
what happens if I lie. It's just I'm just living for
19:36
another day to get caught. You know it's only it's only
19:39
temporary. So you're, you know, I was
19:41
looking for a way that this just has to be over.
19:43
You know, I just can't do this anymore.
19:45
It's too much. It's too much work.
19:47
You know, when you're. It's funny, Brad.
19:49
I've talked to a lot of guys before.
19:50
When you think that you're cheating to get ahead, it's
19:53
supposed to be easier. It's not supposed to be work,
19:57
right? You're supposed to.
19:58
You're supposed to cheat. And it's like, OK, now you know,
20:00
I'm winning the race and everything's good, and but
20:02
that's just not how it happens. I mean it's.
20:04
It's a lot of, it's a lot of hard work, you know, being
20:07
involved in these kinds of things.
20:09
Walt, were you all by yourself on an island or you sharing this
20:13
with anybody like your wife or anyone that you were around?
20:16
Or were you truly just living this double life on your own?
20:22
Yeah, a little. You know, mostly limited on my
20:25
own. But obviously things seep out.
20:27
I mean, you know you, you know you can't be, you know, in your
20:31
right mind, faculties going through all this stuff so it,
20:36
you know, it bubbles over into you know your your regular life.
20:40
You know, the inability to engage in conversation with
20:44
family or having a short temper. Or, you know, things that should
20:48
be simple or more difficult because you're sort of in this
20:51
other world. You know, go wrong in my life.
20:56
Absolutely. They're really tough.
20:58
It is it's it's it's really tough.
20:59
And most of the people that I talk to, they run into the same
21:02
issue because they don't want their their loved 1 to get in
21:05
trouble, Right. You want to go, Oh yeah, I'm in
21:07
the middle of a huge crime. You know, what position have you
21:10
put them in? You know, is it burden you put
21:13
on them? It's like, well, what do I do
21:14
with this information? Do I tell on you or, you know,
21:17
if I tell you to turn yourself in, are you going to listen to
21:20
me? Or you know, and you know, it
21:22
just, it gets much more complicated.
21:24
You don't want to hear anybody else's advice by that.
21:26
I'm the one that got myself into this mess.
21:28
I'm going to have to get myself back out of it.
21:30
Let's talk about the mess. How long did it take for you
21:34
when you you quit that job? Did you have someone visiting
21:42
you and you realizing that this is going to be a big deal?
21:47
Well, you know, first of all, quitting the job is it is meant
21:50
that my life is sort of over as far as like, you know,
21:54
interacting with people and things like that.
21:56
I mean, because now there's, you know, there's an investigation
21:59
and there's people looking into me and now I can't talk to
22:02
anybody. And so we know what I'm seeing
22:04
people, they're asking, hey, how you doing?
22:05
And all I can say is I'm doing OK and then immediately get away
22:09
as far away as I can from them. So I mean now you're even
22:13
further isolated, you know, and then there's, you know, like
22:16
with everybody else, there's a few Co defendants that you start
22:19
with and then all of a sudden those phone calls stopped coming
22:22
and you know, you realize that you're even more isolated.
22:25
Really. On your own?
22:26
Like well, yeah. What did they tell those guys
22:28
and what are they telling on? Me.
22:30
They're really paranoid. Extremely.
22:33
And you know, I mean, half of what you're thinking in your
22:37
mind is not true. It's not nearly as bad as you
22:40
think that it is, but it doesn't matter.
22:44
In your head you're playing through.
22:45
It's all real. Yeah, they're gonna come get me
22:47
tomorrow. All my friends have left me.
22:49
My family's gonna leave me. So it becomes very real, pretty
22:54
quick. Yeah, no, it's dark.
22:55
I think of it. I always thought of it like you
22:59
feel like you're fighting this battle.
23:02
But they've turned off the lights and the the floors
23:06
dropping and it's dark and you keep reaching for the edges and
23:09
they just keep going further and further out that that feeling of
23:14
of no control when all you're doing is battling paranoid and
23:20
there's nothing like seeing your name the United States of
23:24
America versus your name. I I don't know if there's
23:26
anything more intimidating in life that you can ever look at
23:30
knowing that that's not good. Yeah that's not good that's not
23:34
going to end with which is I think where you just start you
23:37
know let's just let's get this over with.
23:40
You know you there comes a point where you just can't plead
23:42
guilty fast enough just you're you're not even thinking about
23:45
whether you're guilty or innocent.
23:47
It's like just put it on a piece of.
23:48
Paper. I want to get it over with.
23:49
Get started. To get over right, this has to
23:52
end at some point and and. That's pretty much what happened
23:56
with you, Walt, wasn't it you just said.
23:58
The hell with it. Let me call my attorney.
24:00
I'm going down there. I'm, I'm going to turn myself in
24:02
and yeah, we got to we got to find, you know, I know what the
24:08
truth is and I know that it's not good and everybody else has
24:13
a version of the truth that they're telling out there about
24:15
me, you know, So it it benefits them, right.
24:20
I mean that's what that's what people are doing when they're
24:22
cooperating. You know they're telling about
24:24
other everybody else's sins but their own.
24:27
So you know there had to be a time when it has come, it has to
24:30
come to an end. You know your financial
24:32
resources are are cooked your, you know you don't have any
24:37
income coming in and you know you got to figure out like you
24:42
know how do we, how do we stop the bleeding here because this
24:44
isn't going to, you know, this isn't going to end well.
24:47
So those those are really difficult conversations to have
24:52
with your family and their difficult decisions that that
24:54
you have to make on your own. You know about, you know how to
24:57
how? How do I put this behind me?
24:59
What's the best way to do this and limit the damage you know,
25:02
at the same time it? Was my dark.
25:04
You don't have any. You have no negotiation, right?
25:06
You have no leverage. You know you're going for mercy,
25:09
you know? So you're saying, hey, I'm
25:10
screwed up. I gotta, I gotta get myself out
25:12
from under this. I don't know how to do it.
25:15
So you finally you you you do the plea.
25:19
I think you were. Were you sentenced to three
25:21
years, 41 months? 41 months, yeah.
25:28
Tell us about what your thoughts were when you were when you
25:30
entered that world, because it's everybody's kind of got a
25:32
different feeling because you're entering A primitive world where
25:35
everybody, nobody that you were around knows anything about it.
25:40
I couldn't find anything. I was.
25:41
I was just desperately trying to look to see what what a federal
25:45
bathroom. Prison bathrooms look like what?
25:47
Where? Where am I going to be taking a
25:48
shower? You know, it was I couldn't
25:50
find. I mean, there's all kinds of
25:52
state prison stuff, but I couldn't find the federal
25:53
prisons. I was just trying to find
25:55
something where what's it look like on the inside there?
25:58
And then how am I going to live? Well, you're looking, you're
26:00
like I'm going to date myself. I mean, look, I'm going back.
26:03
I mean, you know, when I was looking at plea deals, I was in,
26:05
you know, 1999 and 2000. I mean, there's no Internet
26:09
then. I mean, there's barely any
26:10
Internet. You know, the Bureau of Prisons
26:12
doesn't even have a website. So, you know, you're sort of on
26:16
your own asking around, you know, doing the old analog, you
26:20
know, you know, And this is when you find out, you know, some of
26:24
your buddies, you know, you know, you kind of level with
26:26
them, hey, I'm going to prison. They go, oh, you know, I meant
26:28
to tell you my, you know, my brother went to prison, you
26:30
know, and it's like, well, let's talk to.
26:32
You Let's get on the phone, come out, you know, in your, in your
26:35
own, you know, network. You know, people have stuff in
26:38
their own families. And then, you know, to me, it
26:40
was welcome. I was like, wow, that's amazing.
26:42
Thank you. Your brother went to prison.
26:43
You know, he can tell me about it.
26:44
And, you know, and he was telling me about his experience.
26:47
And believe it or not, his experience was 15 years earlier.
26:50
Yeah, it was. You know, it wasn't even rough,
26:52
but you're. Desperate like I remember I was
26:55
so thankful for this friend of mine, Ed Levinson, who was a big
26:59
time home builder in the in this region and he had gone to
27:03
Leavenworth and he literally drew me.
27:08
The prison on the inside before and I that was like so like gold
27:13
to me that he had done that because it just kind of gave me
27:16
a like an idea of where would I be, what what would it be like?
27:22
Well, it's it's sort of there's a there's a control aspect of
27:26
this that makes you feel better. I mean even asking for a date
27:29
that you're going to surrender on and and that being given to
27:32
you is sort of like, OK, I'm driving this bus a little bit.
27:36
Right. And and I know when I'm going to
27:38
get out, you know, I'm going, I'm going in and and then when I
27:41
get out and then the other things are going to happen, you
27:43
start to feel some sense of control.
27:45
And I can appreciate that. Just somebody giving you a
27:48
layout of something and just talking to it about it, you're
27:52
like, OK, I'm now I'm back in control again.
27:54
There was something that I can understand.
27:56
Yeah. But I'll tell you something that
27:57
really, I don't know if it was the right thing to do for me
28:01
looking back on my wife and I drove up.
28:06
The night before and we were watching and the sun was getting
28:10
ready to go down. It was kind of, you know the you
28:12
could see the guys walking the fence you could start seeing the
28:16
the lights come on in the in the different block cells and and I
28:22
didn't say anything to her, but I was thinking to myself, Oh my
28:25
God. I am going to be inside there
28:28
tomorrow night. That's going to be me and it's
28:30
not going to be for like a a week or a month.
28:33
I have a five year sentence I I am going to that is that area
28:37
right there is going to be where I am for a while.
28:42
And it was just such a like deep dark feeling that I didn't share
28:46
with anybody. Went to bed with it that night
28:48
thinking did did you have anything Walt before you went in
28:52
or the day you went in of how you survivor is not there is
28:58
nothing more frightening than the prospect of prison.
29:02
I mean I am telling you it. I deal with guys every day and I
29:04
try to settle them down and they will be settled down but only
29:08
once they're in there because the the and I still can't figure
29:12
it out it it maybe it's because of our country and you know how
29:16
much we appreciate freedom and it's just a part of our lives.
29:20
So having your freedom taken away is like the worst thing.
29:23
Yeah. And it's it.
29:25
You know, in many cases, you know, you don't want to wish
29:28
disease on somebody. But that's more understandable
29:32
than prison. Prison is just not
29:33
understandable. It just is so boring.
29:36
And you know, look, I'm with you.
29:38
You know, you're looking at this fence and go, I'm going to be
29:41
over there. I don't even know what's over
29:43
there. You know, and you and and you
29:45
know, crossing over this, you know, to another world is just
29:50
something that is just frightening to people.
29:53
I mean, people take their lives as a result of not being able
29:56
to, you know, to go through with it, Yeah.
29:59
And you know, and I, and I think you bring up a good point too
30:04
while it's on on calming people down.
30:06
Because nothing is as bad as your mind makes it out to be.
30:09
Not even prison. You know, my biggest surprise in
30:12
prison was the. You know I I always joked that I
30:16
was standing at the gate there and I thought well I'm I guess I
30:18
get raped and then I get beat up and and maybe stabbed was I I
30:24
don't know I guess it was just all those things that I had seen
30:27
and then the my and within you know once I got to where I was
30:32
supposed to be I could not believe how many people were
30:35
wanting to help me get set up that's that was one of my
30:39
biggest surprises in prison was is that there were.
30:43
Really decent people in there that had made, you know, some
30:46
mistakes that put them in that position.
30:48
But I had a lot of helpful people get me from one set of
30:53
different. No, you're right though, but
30:54
federal is different, right? I mean when there's guys in
30:57
there that have previous records but a lot of the stuff that
30:59
people that are in there, it's conspiracy related or you know
31:03
these Gray areas in business and some of them not so Gray, but
31:07
you know but these aren't typically people that have that
31:11
have long rap sheets and stuff like that.
31:13
I mean they may have had a few little run insurance with the
31:15
law, but the feds whack them and you know there are there are
31:20
guys in there that have done drugs that would have landed
31:23
them a weekend in in jail with a suspended sentence and they have
31:27
6-7 years in the feds. So it's really, you know, it's
31:32
really different. It's a different, different
31:33
population than you see in the state.
31:35
Well, Speaking of being inside prison, did you do, did you have
31:38
like walls? Any particular things,
31:40
strategies that you use to eat up your time or to deal with
31:45
your time while you were in there?
31:48
Well, I think, you know, it's the same thing that happens with
31:50
everybody, Brent. You know, I always tell
31:52
everybody you'll develop a routine and you have to develop
31:56
a routine because it, you know, it's such a small space.
31:59
But it what I, I think what I I think was most amazing about
32:02
that that time is that even though I I can't look back on in
32:05
fondness, you know, but I can look back and say that I was
32:09
productive. You know, I read a lot of books.
32:11
I helped a lot of people. Like I thought about my, my
32:14
health and my, you know, how do I, you know, go on with the
32:17
second part of my life, which is easier to do when you're there
32:21
because it's so much more difficult once you get out.
32:25
I mean when you're when you're in there, there's no pressure,
32:28
right? There's, you know, you're sort
32:29
of away from everybody. You know you're not, you know,
32:31
you're not going to the grocery store and people are saying, oh,
32:34
there he is or you know. Everybody around you is in
32:38
prison. It doesn't.
32:39
Yeah. Right, exactly.
32:40
We're not. There's no, we have no pride in
32:42
here. Right.
32:44
So, but even the people aren't talking about you at home.
32:47
You think that they are. So they might as well be.
32:49
You know, you every day I'm walking in here, I've got my
32:52
sunglasses on and a ball cap. Does anybody recognize me?
32:56
You know, but when you're in there, you're allowed to sort of
32:58
escape. And I think that you know, in in
33:01
a good way, you're allowed to sort of reflect what, you know,
33:03
what am I going to do with the rest of my life?
33:05
How, how is this going to work out for me?
33:07
And it's a safe place to do that because it's not a safer place
33:11
when you're out. I mean, you got to.
33:12
And now I got to move on with life.
33:15
How how do I interact with people?
33:17
Well, and there's there's there's people that get very,
33:19
very afraid of getting out. You know, they unplug themselves
33:23
so much from society. And get so used to the ugly
33:26
prison routine that that becomes more familiar to them than
33:29
being, than being out and and having to deal with all those
33:32
pressures that come with that. I know you shared a funny story
33:36
about your it might have been the first day you were there
33:39
with your buck mate and he he was telling you about.
33:43
I think he was. Dealing in drugs and he's, he
33:47
dropped out when he was in 8th grade, right?
33:51
And then I tell him, you know, and then he, you know, he's
33:53
telling me his story of woe and you know, and then I tell him I
33:57
was like, you know, I don't really have any excuses, right?
33:59
You know, I was raised in a good family and I had a good
34:03
education and then I went to work and I embezzled, you know,
34:06
$6 million and he was like, damn, I should have gone.
34:08
I. Should have gone to college, you
34:10
know, And we think about that. It was the funniest thing.
34:13
Because it was funny, you know? Yeah, you think about, you know,
34:18
it was sort of telling you put put me in my place a bit right
34:20
too. It's like, you know, I shouldn't
34:22
be here, you know, I really should not be here.
34:24
I should have known better. But you know.
34:26
It's to be able to see some humor in that.
34:29
There is humor in prison, though.
34:31
I mean, that's you there. There is.
34:33
I think you know we've. We had a place called Cracker's
34:36
Corner that we're all, you know, from time to time there was
34:39
laughing, you know, there was stuff.
34:41
But Walt, you kind of had an AI. Haven't talked to anybody.
34:46
I've done over 100 of these interviews.
34:48
I haven't talked to anybody that had the FBI come into the prison
34:54
and say, hey, we want to work with you, Walt, can you, can you
34:58
be somebody that we can teach, basically teach them?
35:03
What was that like for you? Because here you are in prison?
35:08
How does, how does, how does that even happen?
35:10
How do they contact you? Well, you know, so there was,
35:13
you know there was an ongoing case and I was asked to testify
35:19
which is extremely difficult to do, you know, because you know
35:22
the the families and the people that are involved and but it's
35:26
my deal, you know, everybody's on their own.
35:28
But at that point, and you know I was, I was able to tell a
35:33
story pretty well and you know, and the and the FBI was looking
35:38
for case studies. They were putting together this
35:40
Worldcom Enron task force and they were looking for somebody
35:44
to tell a story and they had had a good experience with this guy
35:48
named Frank Abagnale from the movie Catch.
35:50
Me fan. Yeah.
35:52
And you know, they they thought that.
35:54
Was he one of the first guys, Walt, to do that, to work with
35:57
them that way? Was that like Frank, Frank I
36:00
believe was to you know to an extent.
36:02
I mean I think that they've, they've had success working with
36:05
people before. But you know here you have it's
36:10
a unique situation. I mean you know other white
36:14
collar criminals aren't going to put a hit out on me.
36:17
You know, I'm not telling on a drug cartel or something.
36:19
So it makes it unique to to like, embrace helping
36:23
authorities to look for. I understand.
36:27
Yeah. Yeah.
36:28
This is, this is how it happens in large corporations.
36:30
And you know, look, Brent, in life you work hard and you get
36:34
lucky. And I worked hard and I got
36:36
lucky and and they were looking for somebody to, you know, to to
36:40
talk about accounting fraud. And I happen to be that person
36:43
at that time who could tell a story.
36:46
And you know, the rest is in in in many ways, history is still,
36:50
you know, there's a lot of hard work.
36:51
But the FBI introduced me to, you know, IRS postal inspectors.
36:57
And, you know, that became the ability to be a living and
37:02
breathing case study. But this is how you do it.
37:04
You don't have to apologize for it.
37:06
You can be sorry for your actions.
37:07
But it's like I got a job to do. I got to tell you guys how I did
37:10
it and the way that I was thinking and, you know, so that
37:14
you can, you can stop this. I mean really, if anything else
37:17
scare kids, enough going out. There, it's like you scare them
37:21
straight. Do not, do not get involved in
37:24
this stuff. Well, and the other thing too, I
37:27
wondered, Walt is like, you know, being in the entering that
37:32
world, like the Quantico and the FBI world, and then the, you
37:38
know, US Attorney, how were you treated?
37:40
Did you feel like you were treated as AI?
37:44
Don't even know if you'd use the word colleague.
37:46
But there's a difference between being treated as a guy that's
37:48
here as an expert as opposed to a guy that's here as an ex
37:51
inmate. You know, I can tell you that my
37:55
experience was a very +1 throughout.
37:58
I mean, you know, one of the things that I like about our
38:01
justice system is one that I also don't like.
38:03
There's a lot of collegiality. There's a lot of people that
38:06
know one another. You know, the judges know the
38:08
probation people, and the probation people know the
38:10
prosecutors and the defense attorneys knows all of them.
38:13
Yeah, they all go to Christmas parties together, right.
38:16
So you know you're trying to figure out when you're in there
38:19
like well who's on my team and you know that's that's hard.
38:25
And then once you've I've sort of busted through that and was
38:27
on the other side of law enforcement and looking at it.
38:31
You know, I can see that these these are hard jobs.
38:33
You know and you know I don't agree with the way that they
38:37
prosecute some of these cases sometimes, but it is really a
38:40
difficult job to put all the evidence together and you know
38:44
present the case and stuff. You know, those are, those are,
38:47
you know, a lot of pressure. And in the end, they're just
38:49
people too, you know, may not agree with.
38:52
Well, yeah, they do. They're on the other side and
38:54
they're they're trying the other side and they they they've got
38:56
the pressures. I got to nail this guy, you
38:58
know, I got to stop this. I got to do, you know, whatever
39:01
it is that they do, it is a high pressure on both sides, you
39:04
know? Oh gosh.
39:06
So if we if we go back a little bit for when you were getting
39:10
ready to get out and you kind of knew that this could be.
39:16
I mean, or were you thinking, were you thinking this could be
39:18
a possible path for you on your second chance of working in that
39:23
arena? No, I did not.
39:26
I Nope, I didn't. I I I didn't.
39:28
What were what were you thinking, Walt?
39:29
Like, 'cause everybody's got those moments when they're
39:32
getting close to the door. What what?
39:34
What was your thoughts again? You're in, you're in this vacuum
39:37
of prison. So, you know, when I'm
39:39
practicing walking around the track, it's like, hey, all
39:41
right, what's my, what's my elevator pitch?
39:44
You know I'm a good guy. I screwed up.
39:47
I learned my lesson and I'm back here to be an honest person
39:52
contribute to society. But that last one is a little
39:55
more hard than you think that it is going to be.
39:57
Because you know it's hard one thing to practice it by yourself
40:00
that when you're really in front of someone and you go like hey,
40:03
you know, hey, you know I went to prison.
40:04
I mean the first thing is you can see it in their.
40:06
Eye, Yeah, it takes a breath away.
40:07
Are they Are you Am I safe? Yeah.
40:11
You know there's. They're, they're they're they're
40:13
wondering, like, all right, well, what did you do?
40:15
Yeah, try it at a cocktail party.
40:16
Right. Yeah, that's right.
40:18
You gotta you gotta hurry up with that next thing.
40:20
It's like, OK, it didn't involve children.
40:22
Gotta have a good follow up, right?
40:25
You gotta you gotta hurry up and you gotta and you gotta get to
40:28
the point quick and you know I I think that I I found that
40:32
difficult like anybody would all right.
40:34
You know, where do I go to work and and I've been out of
40:36
communication now. You know I've been away for a
40:38
year and a half or you know a couple of years and.
40:42
And before that I was away, you know, avoiding everybody, don't
40:46
want to talk to anyone. And so now I'm coming back and
40:48
saying, hey, you know, I need some papers.
40:49
Welcome. My network is much smaller than
40:51
it was. So that's it.
40:54
It's difficult. You know, it's difficult how how
40:57
am I going to manage life, you know, on the other side, what do
40:59
I tell people? Do I have to tell people?
41:02
When do I tell people, right. I mean, you know you you you
41:05
don't. To go out with, you know, a
41:09
group of guys and tell them the worst thing you've done within
41:11
the first 5 minutes of them. Nothing.
41:13
You don't tell them about your failures, you're telling them
41:16
about your successes. So you have to sort of figure
41:19
out, OK, at what point do I tell them that I've made this
41:22
terrible mistake and how would they accept me?
41:25
And does that you know, do they think that I've lied to them
41:28
because they didn't tell them sooner?
41:29
So, you know, it becomes a really, really difficult and it.
41:33
And so, you know, back to your original point though, Brett, I
41:35
mean after after a while when I, it wasn't working out, I did
41:38
feel a sense of comfort of of telling my story and being who I
41:42
was and being original and being able to make a living and doing
41:45
and owning it, owning it you and owning it.
41:47
Yeah, I think that's, that's what I like about your story so
41:51
much Waltz is that you you were having trouble getting out then
41:56
you had, you know, your personal stuff that came and you mean you
41:59
you lost that and and so you you were really starting over from
42:04
scratch. And So what you did is you owned
42:07
who you were and that was the thing that actually got you to
42:11
the next steps in your life. You, you you didn't let somebody
42:14
use it against you. Wait a minute.
42:16
I heard you were. No, I am that guy.
42:19
And I'm going to tell you about why I'm that guy and what I've
42:22
learned and how I can help you. That to me is inspiring because
42:28
there's only one or two ways to go with that.
42:31
Hopefully that nobody ever knows anything about you, which you
42:34
know between you and I, we got enough pages to fill up Google
42:37
for a while. So that when we know that if
42:41
somebody wants to find out that they can't.
42:43
So how do you do that? You own it like you've done well
42:47
and then you stand and then you're really good at telling
42:49
your story and people want to hear it.
42:51
But when you found that no one wanted to take the chance with
42:57
you, you took the chance on yourself and said I'm going to
43:00
do this. And that's what I think is such
43:02
an encouraging part of your story is sometimes when it gets
43:06
to the point you are the you are your commodity, you are the guy,
43:10
can you make it happen? And that's you had nothing at
43:14
that time? No.
43:16
And in fact, not only did I not have anything going on in my
43:19
life. The only thing that I knew how
43:21
to do was to work for corporations.
43:23
I mean, I, you know, I didn't know how to be an entrepreneur.
43:27
I mean, you know, everybody thinks that they know how to be
43:29
an entrepreneur. Like everybody wants to be an
43:31
entrepreneur, right? Everybody wants to be an
43:33
entrepreneur, and believe me it is.
43:35
There's a there's a lot of positives, but there's a lot of
43:38
negatives. I mean, there's something to be
43:39
said about walking in. And having your insurance
43:42
covered for you and your family, you know the checks coming at
43:45
the end of the week automatically deposited.
43:48
Even if you have a bad week, you're going to, you know, get a
43:51
check. So if you know that was the
43:54
probably the most, you know, the most frightening part was like,
43:58
I'm not going to be able to go back to the world that I knew,
44:02
which is corporate America. You know that that's just door
44:05
was shut going to happen. That was shut and some small
44:09
businesses, you know. Maybe.
44:11
Or I'm just going to have to do it myself.
44:13
And so I look for a combination of the two.
44:15
You know, small business, you know, is there something I can
44:18
work with another entrepreneur who's a little further down the
44:20
line or can I just do it myself and then I mess around with a
44:25
little bit and then in the end to figure it out, I I had to do
44:27
it myself. And you made some great
44:29
connections too. I mean one of them that you you
44:32
hooked me up with Tim from Tim Headley from Fordham University.
44:36
Some of these guys, they became such supporters of you and
44:41
connecting you to the next dot, to the next dot and and that's
44:46
that's another thing I think that for people who are
44:49
listening to this, looking at strategies, if you're stuck and
44:52
you you're looking for that next step, look for someone who can
44:56
help you get to the next step so that they can believe in you and
44:59
and you know get you to the next part of where you want to.
45:03
Go. It's definitely tough, you know
45:05
and and asking for help. Is difficult when you don't
45:08
think you deserve it. Right.
45:10
It's, you know, and that's where you, you know, where people are,
45:13
you know, that come out of prison.
45:14
You know, they they want a second chance.
45:16
They want to do it. But it's hard to ask.
45:18
I mean, it's just humiliating to ask, 'cause everybody does.
45:21
Hey, you know, you shot yourself in the foot, and here you're
45:23
asking me for help. Why should I take a chance on
45:28
you? And you know what I found,
45:30
Brenda, is that you need time. You know it takes time to heal
45:34
these wounds. As self-inflicted as they may
45:38
be, it just takes time for people to trust you, for you to
45:42
feel comfortable with yourself. It just, it just takes time.
45:46
And and a lot of the times when I talk to people, you know, I'll
45:49
look back at my own story and I remember that I had accomplished
45:53
a lot a year after being out and then you know, so much more for
45:56
two years. But The thing is, I wasn't
45:57
nearly where I thought that I should be.
46:01
But you know, when you look back, it was like, oh, you look
46:03
I was. I, I was that guy on the inside
46:05
of the fence. Now I'm on the outside of the
46:07
fence. That's a huge accomplishment.
46:09
Absolutely. And now I'm, you know, I'm
46:11
walking around. I've got to, you know, I'm, I'm
46:14
making money again. You know, I'm interacting with
46:16
my kids or my family. I mean, these are huge,
46:19
tremendous steps, but you just don't realize them.
46:21
You're like, you know, where's my normal?
46:23
Where's my life? How old were your kids when you
46:27
got out, Walt? They were, let's see, in 2000
46:31
and then like 11. So 9:00 and 11:00 so younger.
46:37
So younger. So they were young when I went
46:38
in, which you know, that was just, you know, something that
46:41
they difficult to understand. And you know, my kids today are
46:43
in their 30s. So, you know, you know, and so
46:47
those questions still come up today.
46:48
You know, like they're the same age that I was when all that was
46:52
going on. Exactly.
46:53
Right, right. So they're, you know, they had
46:56
different questions about life and.
46:58
And we know that it's in there. You know that it's something
47:01
that they can. You know that that happened to
47:03
me. What?
47:04
How long was it, 'cause I I I so much agree with you about get.
47:08
I've been out seven years and and I feel so much different now
47:11
than I did in that first year. I was out and I I think one of
47:16
the things was it's just the pressures of 'cause I did come
47:19
out to a family and support and all those things, but I felt
47:23
like I needed to be happy. Brent all enthused Brent.
47:28
You know, everything's good, Brent.
47:30
But inside my head was spinning like how's all this going to
47:36
work? How do I fit back in?
47:38
How do I, you know, how do I get this job?
47:40
How do I do all these things? And it takes a a while to.
47:46
I had one of my guests that said and I thought it was such a good
47:49
example. He said, when you're in prison,
47:50
it's black and white and when you return to society it turns
47:53
back into color and you have to fit back in.
47:57
It's like jumping into a moving car.
47:58
And for a while I think you have that sensory overload.
48:05
Am I making it work? Do I almost getting your
48:07
confidence back and everybody around you saying, hey, isn't it
48:11
so great? Yes, it's great.
48:13
It's the most wonderful thing to get your freedom back but the
48:19
the steps you have to take to feel like yourself is is there's
48:25
there's some work there. No, I mean you look, you say
48:29
that you know you look back after being out seven years and
48:33
think about you know how far you've come and what you've done
48:36
and how much better you feel. I do the same inventory today
48:40
and I've been out over 20. So it's not going to go away,
48:43
Brett. You're always going to be
48:44
thinking about this you know and and how it you know.
48:49
How it could have gone differently?
48:50
Or, you know, am I making the most of the second chance?
48:53
Yeah. And I think there's a lot of
48:54
that, Walt. I think there's a lot of that
48:56
because you, you have a moment in time where your time stops.
49:01
So when you get out, you want to make as much of it as you can as
49:05
as well as you can. And you don't want to waste time
49:06
on doing things that you don't like doing.
49:10
You want to do the things that that make or fill you up.
49:15
But then you've got to you've got to walk through a lot of
49:17
this shit too, no? It's really it's it's difficult,
49:21
you know, and where, you know, where do you go from here and
49:23
look at it. I I was on the speaking tour,
49:25
you and I talked about doing, you know, different talks and
49:27
stuff. You know, there was a time every
49:29
year that I was on the speaking tour, I always worried that
49:33
like, OK, this isn't like a career, this is like, this is
49:37
just what I'm doing in between. And then, you know, another
49:39
year, something else is. Telling I should be doing
49:41
another speech and I'm like, OK, this is like turning into a
49:44
career. Yeah, but it was always
49:46
frightening because I knew that it was going to end.
49:48
You know it. I can't be the 70 year old guy
49:53
talking about what I did when I was really young.
49:55
You know, like at this crime that I committed, I just said it
49:58
just can't go. And so, you know, it it went,
50:01
you know, I I did it for, you know, almost 20 years, Yeah.
50:04
And had a very good career with that too.
50:06
I mean if anybody wants to check out I mean you can spend a day
50:10
looking at Waltz on YouTube and other things and he's he's and
50:15
how he shares the story from so many different things on there
50:18
that the, I don't know how long ago was it that ABC Nightline
50:22
story was fantastic and and really I think for people like
50:28
myself that see those type of things and that's that's the
50:31
encouraging thing about this that this this goes into 275
50:35
prisons. So for those that are in there
50:37
listening to this, as you're walking the track there, there
50:40
is life on the other side. It's, it's.
50:44
There there absolutely is. And you know what?
50:47
It is going to be hard. But screw it.
50:49
You know, I mean really it's a it's a chance and you know
50:53
really particularly if you come out, you do have the ability to
50:56
say I served my debt, you know, I had a debt and you know that's
51:02
I feel good about it and I'm, you know, and I'm going to, I'm
51:06
going to take this chance and I don't.
51:09
I don't have to be proud of what I did, but I can say that I, you
51:12
know, I there was a law. It was I, I said that that
51:15
happened to me and I served my time and I got out.
51:18
And you know, here I am made the best of it.
51:22
Make the best of it, Yeah. I mean, you're not a bad person.
51:24
I mean, it takes me. Look, my case manager when I was
51:28
incarcerated, did more to help me than any shrink could have.
51:32
And God knows, I probably needed one of those too.
51:35
But she said, you know, you got to learn, you know, she told me.
51:37
She said you got to, you got to forgive yourself.
51:40
You know, you, you're you're wearing this on your shoulder.
51:42
I can see it. And you know, and if I can see
51:45
it, everybody else can see it. So you got to, you got to lose
51:48
that. You have got to move on beyond
51:50
this and that. Probably some of the best advice
51:53
that I ever received. You know, how do you.
51:56
It's really difficult to forgive yourself.
51:58
Really, really difficult. But you know you.
52:00
You realize that that's what you have to do so that you can help
52:02
everybody around you. And I think that's something and
52:07
I'm just getting into it and you've been in it for 20 years.
52:10
I I the thing I like about speaking is is that it's almost
52:15
like we you know that that feeling you get before you
52:17
entered on the basketball court or something that that
52:20
adrenaline rush and then you get that feel of getting back and
52:23
forth with the with the crowd. And then that Q&A that comes
52:26
after that that you feel like you've done something to further
52:32
along to help through what your experience is.
52:36
And that's a good feeling. And I I think that also helps
52:40
Walt kind of knock that chip off, you know giving back, doing
52:45
things that you know when these people are listening and and and
52:49
you're going back and forth and and you're feeling it that
52:51
you're making an impact which you know that's one of the
52:55
things I really love about your story.
52:56
You you didn't just kind of do it.
52:58
You really did it. Yeah, yeah.
53:00
No, I I, I, I jumped in with both feet and I and I always
53:04
tell people that said, you know, that's sort of what you have to
53:06
do. If you want to be successful at
53:08
it. You have to really own it.
53:10
You know, if you, you know there there's people that I've known
53:13
that I, you know that I believe them.
53:15
They just said, you know, I went to prison and then it was wrong.
53:18
Prosecutors were wrong in doing it and.
53:20
You know, I'm going to go out and tell that story and I go,
53:23
well, I'm just going to let you know, nobody wants to hear that
53:25
before a lot of push back on that one.
53:29
You're going to get push back. I mean because people want to
53:31
believe that we have a system that's fair and you know that
53:35
puts bad people away and you know the good people go on with
53:38
their life. That's just not the case.
53:41
But that does that story doesn't play well so.
53:44
You have to. You know.
53:45
You have to find, you know the balance.
53:47
Now you can. You know, not understand the
53:51
totality of of a law or something like that, but you
53:55
have to be willing to say, hey, you know, I paid the price and
53:58
and you know you can have a book or something that doesn't do
54:00
that. You're just not going to have a
54:01
very big audience. Yeah, everybody can write a
54:05
book. Your book on Stolen without.
54:10
Again, how long was that? Well, before you.
54:13
You. I mean, from the time you were
54:15
out, you wrote the book. Was it a long time or was it a
54:19
short period of time? So like when I, when when I was
54:21
in inside of Forbes magazine reached out to me about, you
54:25
know, they were looking at, you know, this whole world comic,
54:27
certainly the downfall and so the biggest, so the biggest.
54:31
So I gave an interview for them and they did a feature story on
54:35
me. And then the the guy who worked
54:38
on the story, this guy's named Neil Weinberg, who I'm still
54:40
very good friends with today. Neil went on to work for
54:43
Bloomberg News, a great reporter.
54:47
And he encouraged me to write down thoughts about the story.
54:51
And, you know, maybe there's a book involved.
54:53
He would like to be involved in it one day.
54:54
So I wrote it while I was incarcerated.
54:56
I just wrote, you know, spent every day.
54:59
I took 90 days, really, and wrote a book.
55:02
And it was the quickest three months of my life.
55:04
And therapeutic too, I bet. There, yeah, it was.
55:08
It was great. And then I got out and then I.
55:11
Neil and I shopped it around and and finally ended up
55:14
self-publishing the book and and it did really it did really
55:18
well. We printed over 10,000 copies in
55:20
2007. So I've been out of prison about
55:22
seven years about about the time.
55:25
But how long you've been out and and you know, put it out there
55:29
and it was, you know, it's been a successful book and you know a
55:32
lot of colleges use it and and again, it's just for lack of a
55:36
better term, an unapologetic look at.
55:39
How I did what I did. You know just like just just
55:42
tell me what happened. I can tell you I love it.
55:44
I I was you. You ran through my hour
55:47
yesterday and today. It's just it's a it's it's a
55:51
page Turner book and it's got a lot of life lessons in it too
55:56
which is what people you know hopefully want to walk away
55:59
with. But.
56:00
Right, right. Speaking of life lessons,
56:03
though, while I always ask people this question, especially
56:09
taking your whole life into this whole thing, what do you think's
56:12
your biggest take away through all that you've been through to
56:15
where you're at now? You.
56:18
Know I think that if that I I feel better about handling you
56:22
know addressing the situation then then putting it you know
56:26
putting it off. You know the best way I think
56:28
you know to handle some of the most difficult stuff is to pick
56:31
up the phone and rip the Band-Aid off and love that and
56:34
take care of it and. You know what me sort of
56:38
addressing it is, is is really helped me.
56:40
You know, I I think of the the the Victor Hugo's, you know, Les
56:45
Miserables, right? Just, you know, this guy sort of
56:49
has gone through life being chased by his past, reinventing
56:52
himself over and over again, only to have his past
56:55
continually chasing. And so one day he turns around
56:57
and says, hey, I'm not running from you anymore and this path
57:01
sort of kills itself, You know, it can't handle.
57:04
But the chase isn't going to go on anymore.
57:07
And Jean Valjean moves on with his life without having to be,
57:12
you know, his past, chasing him all the time.
57:15
And I think that's a very valuable lesson, you know, you
57:17
can't can't let you know, can't let that stuff just chase you.
57:20
It'll wear. It'll wear you down.
57:23
Great advice, great advice. If anyone wants to get a hold of
57:25
you, Walt, what's, what's the best way to to get a hold of
57:29
Walt? Paul bro.
57:30
Info at Prisonology. Probably the best way to.
57:33
To get in touch with me, we have a, you know, a consulting firm
57:35
now where we, you know, use some of the Bureau of Prison
57:39
strategies to help defendants as they go into prison.
57:41
We I trained judges last week. I trained US probation that
57:46
you're, you know, train, you know, you're not just a guy that
57:49
works there. You're the president and Co
57:51
founder. Right.
57:53
And they just work there too. And they just work.
57:56
And I work with Wardens. I work with case managers I work
57:59
with. So is your wardens that work
58:01
with the former director of the BOP.
58:04
That's awesome. I we need, I I I so think that
58:08
that is such a big deal to have people around the table having
58:12
conversations with people. The wardens and judges and
58:15
things of people have the experience to be able to sit at
58:18
the table and say, here's here's what happens, here's how it
58:21
really works, because so many of those are unfamiliar with that.
58:25
Right. And if we if we incarcerate so
58:27
many people and have all this stuff, we need to understand
58:29
what what do your, you know, what your taxpayers are paying
58:32
for and what's going on in there?
58:34
And how you rehabilitate people and how you get them back on
58:37
their feet? Because there's a lot of sad
58:38
stories in prison, there's no doubt about it.
58:41
Terribly sad stories. Hard days.
58:45
Well well I I I mean I I really appreciate and and and and
58:49
getting your book and and that's obviously go to Amazon that's
58:52
stolen without a gun if you want to check out my book that's also
58:55
on Amazon. Nightmare.
58:56
Success. I've love you guys.
59:00
I've had a surge of new reviews on Apple, which is awesome.
59:04
That's that just puts some show on steroids.
59:06
So much appreciated. You're doing good.
59:08
You're you're doing good work out there too.
59:10
I mean you know look you're you're you know not only you're
59:12
telling your story but you're looking at you know your the,
59:16
you know reflections of your own story comes out in every
59:19
interview, right. I mean you're you're looking
59:21
questions that that you you. You, you know, you pose to
59:24
yourself, I'm sure, and you and you find a lot of commonality
59:27
across all of our stories. Oh, I, I, I and I love it, Walt.
59:31
And and I appreciate you saying that, 'cause I love doing it.
59:34
I I feel lucky to be able to sit in this chair and if I didn't
59:38
have this program, we would have never been connected and we
59:41
would have never been able to talk.
59:43
So it's it's been a great situation to have a platform
59:47
where people can share their stories and hopefully learn
59:49
something from it, because I always get something from it, so
59:51
I I. Love it.
59:52
No, that's great. You know what?
59:53
I I you were just telling saying to your your your audience.
59:55
I don't realize that, you know, these go, these podcasts go into
59:58
prison. So that's awesome.
59:59
You know, that's a full cycle for me.
1:00:01
I love that. Yeah, yeah.
1:00:03
No, that's great. If anybody wants to get in touch
1:00:06
with me brentcassidy.com that's where the Ty not a DYI wish I
1:00:10
was Sean and David but it's aty no that's great as.
1:00:16
As I used to say when I was writing my emails back and forth
1:00:20
from prison, stay strong and I'll do the same.
1:00:22
Walt Pablo, thank you so much for being here today.
1:00:26
Great guest. Thank you.
1:00:27
Great. Thanks for having me on.
1:00:29
Nightmare. Success in and out.