Latest / Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute / 91: Why Empathy Breaks Down After Betrayal (And How to Fix It)

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91: Why Empathy Breaks Down After Betrayal (And How to Fix It) · Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute

0:00
Everybody welcome. OK, so you got a little bit, we
0:01
got a bonus episode, something extra for you this week.
0:04
Very exciting. Alana is going to be starting
0:06
our helper Heal group. We have our helper Heal
0:08
intensive coming up with Holly and myself and other
0:12
professionals and so excited to have you guys hopefully be a
0:16
part of it. Don't delay and make a jump.
0:19
Check it out. So we're going to talk a little
0:20
bit about what Helper Heal consists of, about some of the
0:23
things that come up as a part of the relational healing.
0:26
So that's what today's episode's going to be about.
0:29
So anyway, we're going to have Alana here with us.
0:35
Welcome to Beyond the Facade podcast.
0:37
I'm your host, Luke Gordon, and I'm thrilled to have you join me
0:40
in the space today. What we're going to be doing is
0:42
diving deep into the trials and triumphs and truths of seeking
0:46
authenticity. Becoming your true self isn't
0:48
about a single action or a moment.
0:50
It's a relentless pursuit, a commitment to self that reveals
0:54
a rich connection and meaning that our life has to offer.
0:57
So whether this is your first time tuning in or you're a
0:59
regular listener, know this. What you're building here goes
1:03
beyond a conversation. You're here to challenge, to
1:05
change, and to celebrate the incredible journey of becoming
1:09
your authentic self. Because when you dare to show up
1:11
fully, the rewards are immeasurable.
1:13
So welcome to Beyond the Facade. Let's get started.
1:18
Hello and welcome. Today specifically, we have the
1:22
men's helper heal. Two things coming up with that.
1:25
We have the intensive coming up and then also I am starting a
1:29
new men's helper heal group on Thursday nights.
1:31
And so as I'm just ramping up for both of these, I'm really
1:37
thinking about what the barriers are that really prevent people
1:42
from doing this well, and especially prevent them from
1:46
doing it on their own. And when I think of healing from
1:51
betrayal, this piece right here, the relational aspect to me is
1:57
probably one of the greatest challenges in healing and
2:01
repairing is the challenge of the individual who's betrayed
2:07
really being able to hold the pain of their partner.
2:11
And then as a couple, the two of them being able to navigate it
2:15
with all of the triggers and with all of the pain points.
2:17
And sometimes I think when people hear podcasts like this,
2:22
they're they almost think in their mind that there is just
2:25
this way to do it and there is an answer.
2:28
And I'm going to speak for B trade partners for a minute.
2:30
And if the other person isn't holding their pain right, that
2:34
they're doing something wrong and that the relationship won't
2:37
heal. And so that becomes a barrier.
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And then for the individual who is trying to help their partner
2:45
heal, I see this deep desire to do it.
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But then when it doesn't go well, a lot of hopelessness show
2:53
up. So let's dive into this.
2:57
But let me just start with you, Luke.
3:00
You work with a lot of men. You've also walked to this path
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and I know for you individually, you've had times where you have
3:08
felt very successful at this and you've had times where you feel
3:11
like you fall flat on your face, whichever route you want to go,
3:14
whether you want to go your own personal route or the guys you
3:17
work with. But can you just talk to us
3:19
about what you see with the challenges?
3:23
And I'm going to genderize today.
3:25
Usually I try not to, but because my intensive is men's
3:28
help her heal. And it's a group for men.
3:31
Help her heal. So in the men you work with and
3:35
in your own story, what do you see?
3:39
I see a deep desire to heal and repair the relationship with an
3:47
immense struggle to in the moments not get flooded
3:51
emotionally and wonder how to move forward.
3:55
Like most of the consults that I have are exasperated men that go
4:00
my my partner says that I don't have empathy and I'm either
4:04
confused because I agree with that and I don't know how it
4:08
feels like a different type of language and I think I had I do
4:12
have empathy but I don't know I don't understand why she doesn't
4:16
think I do. And it's probably a combination
4:18
of both. But deep desire for the
4:20
relationship to work out with a lot of hopelessness of going.
4:23
It doesn't seem like it is and I don't know what to do about it.
4:26
Yeah, I would agree with you. Anytime I'm doing a console, I,
4:31
I the relational piece, if they're still in the
4:34
relationship, undoubtedly is one of the big focuses because this
4:39
is where the most pain is. Your primary attachment between
4:44
the two of you has this Grand Canyon of pain and injury.
4:51
And I'll just say for B trade partners, you want that person
4:55
who should be the one to take care of you, to hold you, to
4:59
comfort you. They're the ones who hurt you.
5:04
And many times they don't have the skills or the capabilities
5:08
to hold your pain in the way that you need it.
5:11
Sometimes it's almost like betrayed partners need more
5:15
truth, need more processing, need more talking about it.
5:18
And then for the person who's betrayed, a lot of times I see
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their brains wanting less talking about it, less being in
5:26
the pain and more of just, I want to move forward.
5:28
So even right there, there's this tension of what both of
5:32
them are wanting and needing in that given moment.
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And I think it's interesting measuring too, is am I stuck to?
5:41
Am I progressing? And also, I think measuring
5:45
things differently for each person.
5:47
He'll often go, I feel like I'm having some success, but she
5:50
says I'm not. Again, genderizing and being
5:53
confused about what a success look like is a really big
5:56
missing piece. Measuring the good days and
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being so excited about those and going.
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I feel like progress is being made and then moments or days
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later, going like all is lost. I think we're at the same way,
6:08
or I think we're even farther backwards than we used to be.
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And for those who have listened to us for a long time, this
6:13
isn't going to be a new concept, but I think it's really
6:15
important and worth repeating. Is like progress in which area?
6:20
Because I will see a man being able to get some individual
6:25
progress. So his therapist is going, yeah,
6:27
there are some good things happening, but relationally, it
6:31
hasn't caught up yet, right. And so even that can feel
6:35
confusing to him that I am making progress.
6:40
And for her, she's going, but you still don't have empathy,
6:44
but you're still not doing this. And so for her, it feels like 0
6:47
progress is being made because the relationship and how it
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impacts her isn't shifting. I think it's important.
6:55
To hand on that, yeah, hand on that.
6:57
And I've noticed that she does notice that he there is marked
7:01
improvement, but not relationally like it is seeing,
7:05
yeah, I can see he's improving, but our relationship that's not
7:07
improving. So she can.
7:09
I've watched her see that improvement, but knowing that's
7:12
not going to ultimately help them stay together.
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I think I want to just really highlight for B trade partners.
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And by the way, there can be more than this, OK?
7:21
I'm not speaking on behalf of all B trade partners, that many
7:24
of them, one of the really huge pieces they need foundationally
7:30
is truth and understanding. They need to know what happened.
7:35
They need to know why it happened.
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They need to know whether it's going to happen again.
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They're always looking and waiting for the shoe to drop.
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They need to understand what truly went on which side note,
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why I think a Full disclosure is really beneficial, but I think
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right there, OK, I'm going to hold that thought.
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OK? They need the truth and
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understanding. They also need the validation.
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They need to feel seen. They need to feel heard.
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They need to know that their pain matters.
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And then the last thing, not the last thing.
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There's many things they need, but the last one I'm going to
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highlight is safety. So they need the transparency,
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the consistency, the empathy, the accountability.
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So if they need those three things, and I know that if
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you're listening to this and you're a person who's betrayed,
8:25
I'm going to give you the benefit of doubt that you
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desperately want to give that to her.
8:30
And what you want versus what is happening or reality doesn't
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always align. So Luke, what do you see that
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gets in the way of him being able to and maybe even you can
8:44
slow it down and say, like just the first one, what do you see
8:48
that really blocks him and being able to explain what happened,
8:53
why it happened and whether it could happen again?
8:57
Emotional regulation, his ability to be able to regulate.
9:00
I think often you have partners that Co regulate.
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He wants to Co regulate with her, wants her to be able to say
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hey, I'm calm him down, make him be able to feel like he's
9:10
enough, reassure him. So his ability to be able to
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show up when she's dysregulated and that's not happening.
9:19
His ability to be able to stay grounded inside of himself.
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That's usually what gets in the way.
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The lack of ability to be able to do that and because he's
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doing that outside of only give, let me say this is what's
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happening, OK, which isn't always the case.
9:34
For someone who's doing their work is what you're about to
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explain. Yeah, for somebody that is the
9:40
therapist is saying, hey, I can see you that can see Mark
9:42
progress, you're able to utilize these tools outside of session
9:45
and you're being grounded and regulated relationally.
9:48
That's the greatest impact of the greatest room for
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dysregulation because what we want from that of the partner or
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what we need are just the triggers that exist.
9:57
So shows up in that relationship and it all goes S, it all goes
10:01
sideways because that's the scariest place to go because it
10:06
felt like the most is on the line.
10:08
Yeah, that higher level vulnerability.
10:10
Well, and and that I'll just say, and this will come up in
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all of these different categories as a shame, right
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When that shame gets triggered, I'm not enough, I'll never be
10:22
enough. I'm broken, something's wrong
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with me. Shame blocks connection.
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And so if, and I'll see this like you're talking about, they
10:33
show up grounded, ready to go, but the longer they're in the
10:37
conversation, that wears down until they do get dysregulated.
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They get flooded with chemicals and then they're not even
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thinking clearly. Their own body is going into its
10:48
own fight or flight response. And this, I think sometimes can
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really get the two partners looking at each other like the
10:56
other person's the enemy, she's feeling like he's not doing it
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right. He can't hold her pain.
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He caused all this pain and the least he can do is hold it.
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So she's looking at him, mad at him.
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He's feeling. I see a lot of the victim
11:12
mentality coming up. A lot of I am trying and she
11:16
can't see it and she won't understand it.
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She won't validate it. So they're both looking at each
11:21
other and frustrated with each other when ultimately they both
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have the same goal, which is they both want to be connected,
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they want to heal, and yet they're turning against each
11:34
other versus being able to figure out how to work through
11:37
it. And this is where I just have
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all the empathy in the world for partners going through this.
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And I say partners and both partners.
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And I'll just say really quick, for my betray partners,
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sometimes you even hearing me talk about the person who's
11:52
betrayed and talking about them having pain in it and their
11:55
discomfort can be triggering. And I just want to say, yes, I
11:59
know. And I'm not saying that their
12:01
pain is equal to yours. But the reality is, is we have
12:06
two individuals who are in deep pain who both desperately want
12:09
to connect and want to heal. And so we have to put that on
12:12
the table because that's reality.
12:14
Now, this is for people who are trying.
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I know that there's partners out there who have a significant
12:20
other who is not trying, and that is a unique pain that I'm
12:25
not talking about today. But if that is your case, I just
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send you all the love and support and a reminder to keep
12:32
doing your work, whether or not they're doing theirs, because
12:36
you deserve healing. But we're talking about
12:39
individuals who both individuals do want to repair the
12:42
relationship. And I think I was doing a
12:46
console the other day and he was talking about this exact
12:48
situation of being able to have empathy and hold her pain.
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And he was. And then me as a professional
12:56
working with him, I was, I was grateful that he was in a
12:58
relationship where his partner wasn't offering to show up and
13:02
support him emotional like she done for a long period of time
13:04
before. Why are you happy she's stepping
13:06
out of that role? Because every partner that I
13:09
meet with says, Hey, how can I better support at the end of the
13:11
call? We're like, because I'll often
13:13
meet with a partner and I'll, when I do an intake and I'll be
13:17
like, OK, I want to meet this significant other and see what
13:20
she's experiencing. And she'll always end the call.
13:23
Often, not always often goes, Hey, how can I better support?
13:26
What can I do? And be like, actually, I, if you
13:30
could just let me have him for a while, that would be amazing.
13:33
Because him not leaning on you and you providing emotional
13:37
support for him would be great. Because if we could have him
13:41
working inside of himself to get regulated.
13:43
So what I always what I think when I meet with him and he's
13:49
going to her and needing her to Co regulate to feel better, is
13:53
it be like actually, I want her to be able to express what she's
13:57
feeling and what she's thinking and whatever it is and him to
14:00
come to this place ready to stay inside of himself, ready to be
14:04
able to regulate himself. Can I interrupt really quick on
14:07
this then? Because what you're talking
14:10
about, and this is where I see people get confused, is a
14:14
dependency looks different than Co regulation.
14:18
So what most likely was happening before, which I see in
14:22
a lot of relationships, is her being in a fixing or rescuing
14:26
state. And we don't want that pattern
14:29
to continue, right? So he's turning to her to make
14:33
him feel better because he's not actually dealing with his
14:35
emotions. He's going and putting them on
14:37
her and she's rescuing and fixing.
14:40
We don't want that dynamic to continue.
14:42
And So what I hear you say, like the therapist in me is like,
14:45
yeah, we don't, we don't want that pattern anymore.
14:48
Like I was the queen fixer. I still struggle and have to
14:51
catch myself of not jumping in and rescuing and fixing.
14:55
And that's different than Co regulation because Co regulation
14:59
is when 2 individuals each are able to hold their own emotions,
15:03
but they're coming together and they're with each other.
15:07
I'm able to see you and you're able to see me and our bodies
15:10
are able to Co regulate together.
15:13
And but if we have somebody totally dysregulated and they're
15:18
just coming and dumping it on the other person is going to
15:21
rescue, fix it at a sacrifice of themselves and a sacrifice of
15:25
their own healing, which I see a lot of partners do.
15:28
That's what's really problematic and that's what we want those
15:31
partners to step out of. So what you're saying of that
15:35
pattern 1000% is I'm the same way when I see a woman who's
15:42
stepping out of that rescuing role.
15:45
You can support somebody, but let them have their own journey
15:50
and let them hold their own feelings and let them work
15:54
through it. And you can still be supporting
15:56
and loving and there you can still be an anchor without
16:01
holding it for them. And I think that piece that's a
16:05
whole nother episode of like how to support without the rescue in
16:09
the fixing is, yeah, I'm going to put that on my list.
16:14
Yeah, it's an important piece. If you take a look at the window
16:17
of tolerance. So when I'm working with a man
16:19
wander his window of tolerance to be able to increase, to
16:22
widen, which basically means that he does experience outside
16:28
of the window of tolerance. Emotions fight, flight, freeze,
16:32
fawn. And what he does, he becomes
16:34
tolerance of those feelings inside of him.
16:37
He becomes OK, I feel that I see that that's happening inside of
16:41
me and actually staying present with himself inside of that
16:45
dysregulated partner. So I'm not, if you're the
16:48
betrayed partner, I'm not saying, Hey, you need to bring
16:50
dysregulation to the the relationship.
16:52
Like I'm going to be careful of how I phrase this because but I
16:56
do recognize that I need to put him in a place where he does
17:00
experience fight, flight, freeze, fawn.
17:03
It's not even putting him in a place that's allowing the
17:06
natural consequences that are already happening.
17:09
Natural consequences. Exactly.
17:11
I love that Alana. So he's sitting there going OK
17:14
wow. I can feel myself in this
17:15
moment. I want to leave this
17:17
conversation. I want to shut down.
17:19
I want to people, please, I want to defend myself and going.
17:24
I can feel that inside of me. Right.
17:26
So we can only do so much of this in session.
17:29
We can only it's going to be a safe environment right in
17:32
session like I'm not threatening to them for the most part.
17:36
So for them to be in a relationship with somebody else
17:39
who is dysregulated because of yeah, like you said,
17:42
consequences of their choices is an excellent opportunity for
17:45
them to practice become tolerant of those emotions that typically
17:49
have maladaptive ways of responding to.
17:53
So I want that it's a tremendous blessing to be in that bless my
17:58
hearts of the men that I work with that are single, that don't
18:01
have that in their relationships.
18:02
There's a piece there that doesn't exist that and you know,
18:06
that's not as the fire isn't as intense, it's not as hot, so.
18:11
You know what you're making me think about?
18:13
I watched a video one time where he was talking about the
18:17
importance of pain. And our brains are hardwired to
18:21
avoid pain, right? And yet we go to the gym, like I
18:25
was at the gym this morning, and you're lifting weights and it's
18:30
hard and it's heavy. And then the next day, there
18:33
might be some soreness. And I don't know about all of
18:36
you, but when I have that soreness, I'm like, yeah, I got
18:39
a good workout in. And there's some being proud of
18:41
myself for stretching my muscles and allowing them to break down
18:46
so they can grow stronger. I really like lifting weights.
18:49
It makes me feel very empowered. But he said we need to start
18:53
thinking about that. Emotional pain is the same
18:58
thing, like life is a gym. And when you have that pain
19:03
where you're feeling sad the next day or you're feeling that
19:06
shame or you're feeling that, whatever it is, actually looking
19:11
at that as value and looking at that of, OK, I did some work
19:16
there. I stretched myself and let that
19:20
be a repairing healing process and seeing value in that pain.
19:24
Because I think a lot of times, especially those who have had
19:28
compulsive behaviors, their brain has been running from
19:32
pain. And we really have to start to
19:34
learn to shift that relationship with pain and see the value of
19:38
sitting with your emotions and the value of pain in your own
19:41
healing and learning and growth. Yeah.
19:43
Let me just let's talk about the difference though between
19:46
exposure to emotions that are healthy, that you want to become
19:50
tall, you want to develop that tolerance for those difficult
19:53
emotions versus endless hours and hours of staying in that.
19:57
And then like the. Wallowing.
19:59
Mostly, I'm thinking about our Full disclosure process.
20:01
This is an example of in our full disclosures, we don't do
20:05
full disclosures the last 8 hours because a human can only
20:09
stay. Actually, let me compare
20:11
something different. If I'm like, OK, I want to get
20:13
in shape. You know, I'm going to go for a
20:15
run. I think I'm going to, I'm going
20:17
to run 12 miles today. There is a difference where all
20:21
the sudden you stretching your muscles to a certain point
20:23
become become valuable to where it becomes destructive.
20:27
And I've seen a lot of men stay there past their muscles being
20:32
being the appropriate amount of stretching versus now it becomes
20:35
destructive. And we see this in relationships
20:37
all the time because relationships are trying to stay
20:38
together. They stay in that space and then
20:41
the muscles are exhausted and then it's just destructive.
20:46
Yeah. Can you break that down and what
20:47
does that mean in like everyday terms?
20:49
What does that look like? Middle of the night
20:51
conversations, hours upon hours of whatever it might be, just
20:55
fighting for the relationship, what feels like in the moment.
20:59
If I give up, then everything's doomed.
21:01
I don't want to leave my partner to where that's your muscles are
21:03
broken down. It's gone at that point.
21:06
It's the now destructive. Yeah, that I see that too.
21:10
Like I see this like we have to talk till we feel better
21:13
sometimes and talking for three hours to where both people are
21:16
completely dysregulated. And I put limits on clients
21:21
before and there is this piece of it.
21:25
Running is a great analogy. If I've never run before, when I
21:28
started running, even running for a minute, like one minute,
21:32
60 seconds felt like a lot. And then I got up to like 3
21:36
minutes and that still felt like a lot, but one minute didn't
21:40
feel like a lot. And then I was able to get to 5
21:43
minutes and then I was able to go a mile and then I was able to
21:46
go 5 miles. So there's this building of
21:49
endurance as I practice being in that discomfort.
21:53
But you're right, I see individuals who just go, well,
21:58
I've done this much damage, therefore I have to go run a
22:02
marathon, have to. And yet they can actually cause
22:06
more damage by going and running the marathon then allowing us to
22:12
go slower to be able to go faster.
22:15
And I don't think that the emotional tolerant piece.
22:19
Let's want to clear something up here real quick.
22:22
I think the most the reason why conversations go all through the
22:25
night is because she, if I genderize, is searching to find
22:29
him and is searching to get connected to him and he's still
22:32
walled off. If he can pretty quickly be in
22:35
touch with his emotions and say, I see you, I hear you.
22:38
I'm not put up a defense. Let me tell you what you're let
22:41
me tell you what I hear you experiencing.
22:43
The conversation doesn't necessarily have to be bad for
22:45
three hours. It can be.
22:48
You can really connect to your partner and do that fairly
22:51
quickly in the conversation. And I think the three hour plus
22:54
conversations go on. I don't know why I'm picking 3
22:57
hours. Kay, that's ridiculous.
22:58
So please don't measure 3 hours. Because we've had tons of three
23:01
hour conversations in our beginning of our.
23:04
Healing, yeah. I want to just say, if you're
23:07
having all through the night conversations, if you look at
23:10
the person who did the betraying, can you, are you, can
23:14
she touch you? Can she see inside of you?
23:16
Are you open? Were you ever, instead of making
23:20
it be a problem of, well, I guess we need to stop the
23:23
conversation because my muscles are sore.
23:26
Just start in the right way, start open, start connected.
23:30
And then often the conversation will just, it'll take a
23:33
different trajectory. It'll take a different, it'll
23:35
take a different. There'll be a different fork in
23:37
the road of attunement. I, I'm going to say everything
23:40
you're saying is a yes. And some people don't know how
23:44
to do that. Some, sometimes I'll have an
23:47
individual sitting in front of me who will say I'm open, I'm
23:51
open, I'm open. But the reality is they aren't
23:54
because they actually have never had enough internal safety to be
23:59
open. And This is why doing individual
24:03
work in conjunction with a couple repair is so essential.
24:09
Because if you don't know as an individual how to feel safe
24:12
within yourself, it makes it pretty Dang hard to open up
24:15
yourself and then let somebody in and let them feel safe.
24:19
If you don't know how to have empathy and love for yourself,
24:23
it's hard to hold that empathy and love for somebody else.
24:26
We're going to take a quick break for a moment.
24:28
I want to let you know of some things that we have coming up at
24:30
Choose Recovery Services. One of the hardest areas to heal
24:35
after betrayal as a couple and as an individual is around
24:40
holding the pain. The individual who is betrayed,
24:43
holding the pain of their partner.
24:46
And I see so often somebody has betrayed their partner.
24:51
Both are in a place that they want to try to repair the damage
24:56
that has been done, which in and of itself is a tall order.
24:59
But then a lot of what happens is when they go to try to hold
25:05
the pain that they caused their partner, their own shame comes
25:10
up, their own insecurities, their own unhealed trauma comes
25:14
up and puts a block on their ability to be able to hold their
25:17
partners pain. So with that being said, choose
25:21
recovery services has a group called help her Heal.
25:24
And in this group, it's a little different than some of the other
25:28
Helper Heal groups out there because we deep dive into a year
25:32
of content where we really help you see and understand what is
25:38
blocking that ability to help your partner heal.
25:41
So join us. We have groups on Monday nights
25:44
and Thursday nights for Helper Heal and we would love to have
25:47
you with us. Let's get back to our episode.
25:55
I'll give you an example of this to illustrate this point that
25:58
I'm attempting to make. OK, Alana, if you bring
26:01
fierceness to them this way, if you're like, hey, you know what,
26:04
you seem off. I don't like the how this went
26:06
down. Whatever it is like it.
26:09
It takes a lot of work inside of me to not have my ego defenses
26:12
pop up my protective act. But guys, if Alana cries, if she
26:18
shares that emotion that that I got this other part of me that
26:23
takes control and takes over and like wants to hug her and is
26:26
like, I'm so sorry. I, I will just I have no, it
26:30
feels like I have less of a problem showing up with all my
26:34
defenses coming down if tears exist.
26:37
But if it's something else, it's harder for me.
26:39
So I think what will happen is when Alana's tears come up, she
26:43
senses a different part of me show up, which is a tune and
26:46
connected and it it shifts everything.
26:49
Now it's not appropriate for you to cry every single time to you
26:54
should be able to enter our relationship in another way
26:56
besides tears and have me be able to stay connected to you
26:59
when that's because of work that I need to do.
27:02
So I think that our partners spend a lot of time trying to
27:07
reach us when they sense that we're not available.
27:10
So if your partner just is showing up and is trying to, the
27:13
conversations go on and on. Reflect inwardly about how am I
27:17
not open? Reflect inwardly about what
27:19
guard exists. Not making it about this is a
27:23
trauma response. As more as it is, it's a lack of
27:26
her being able to be attuned to me or us being able to attune to
27:29
each other. And I just want to put like a
27:32
quick disclaimer the that part of you that softens with tears
27:37
is you. And I've had many clients where
27:41
that's not the case, where I've had a betrayed partner sitting
27:44
in my office crying and their significant other gets more
27:49
walled off or continues to be walled off.
27:51
So we're not saying that something across the board, but
27:55
humans protest disconnection. All humans do it.
28:00
And whether they recognize it or not, it's subconscious.
28:04
Sometimes it's conscious that we've brought it to our
28:06
awareness, but when we feel that there's a disconnection, we
28:10
protest it. So some people protest it with
28:12
walling off, some people protest it with chasing, some people
28:16
protest it with tears. And it can vary from time to
28:19
time, but that's what we do is we protest that disconnection
28:23
because we do have this instinctual drive to connect,
28:29
especially with our primary attachment.
28:31
There's that drive to be able to connect, and then we also have
28:35
that drive for safety and we have that instinctual drive for
28:40
protection. So when that significant other
28:43
has been the person who's hurt you, you have these conflicting
28:47
internal drives which can make you feel crazy.
28:51
Yeah, maybe maybe the thought comes up for me is, is I believe
28:55
that the men that I work with all have a protective instinct
28:57
that kicks in at some point. Like I, I haven't seen very many
29:00
men that if they see to see their partner being like if
29:03
somebody would come at them in real life, they're out in public
29:05
and their partner would be in danger.
29:07
There's like an instinct there to protect.
29:09
So different things trigger it. Yeah, right.
29:11
Alana. There's men that their partners
29:13
cry and they actually shut down further.
29:14
So what is your protective instinct that exists that you
29:18
can access notice upon your wiring?
29:21
And it really is. I love that you say that it's,
29:23
we protest disconnection. So what signals our brain that
29:26
this is disconnection? And what are my patterns inside
29:30
that disconnection? What causes me to come forward
29:32
and what causes me to disconnect?
29:34
And when I have one of the partners, the person who's
29:39
betrayed so numbed out, whether it be through acting out through
29:47
alcohol, through drugs, through pouring, like I don't care what
29:50
the substance is, when they are so numb that that ability to
29:57
access that protective part is very far away.
30:02
Which comes back to why I think this individual work is so
30:07
essential. Because if you can't access
30:09
yourself, you won't be able to be available there for your
30:12
partner. And that's why you did a really
30:14
good job pointing out earlier, Alana, there are partners that
30:17
and so sorry for those of you who don't have partners that are
30:20
working and are fighting. If you have a, if you're a
30:23
partner that would trade you, that's not putting in the work.
30:25
And I think that's where more or less often want to talk about
30:27
protective instinct for as a partner that is doing the work
30:29
that can act about protective instinct.
30:32
Well, and if you can't, that would be a really important work
30:36
to go figure out why you can't. Why I can't?
30:38
What's? Blocking it and it's usually
30:41
your own protector part that's trying to keep you safe.
30:46
And now it comes to, OK, so I was going to go into each one
30:50
individually, but like the emotional validation, the where
30:53
she needs to be seen, understood and know that her pain matters.
30:58
And then safety. She needs a transparency, the
31:01
consistency, the empathy, the accountability, the same things
31:05
block that we already talked about.
31:08
We have the same blocks. And that internal emotional work
31:15
for him is going to be really important when we do the men's
31:18
helper heal. A big piece of it is, hey, we
31:22
got to figure out how you can have empathy for yourself.
31:25
And a lot of times there's resistance to that, of how in
31:29
the world can I take time and be thinking about me?
31:34
When my selfishness got us into this place, I got to just figure
31:37
out how to have empathy for her. But we have to go.
31:41
I hear where you want to go, but to get to where you want to go,
31:46
we actually have to start with you.
31:48
And even that concept I feel like takes a while to
31:51
breakthrough to individuals. And I just want to speak to
31:55
partners that this is painful because a lot of times we'll
32:00
have partners show up and they just want to be like, fix him.
32:03
He needs someone to be accountable to.
32:04
You need to get after him. You need to make sure that he
32:08
does it right. And they want us to kind of like
32:11
knock him upside the head and get him into shape.
32:14
But the reality is, is that's not actually how you have long
32:18
lasting change. Long lasting change doesn't
32:22
happen by knocking them around. It actually by helping them
32:27
learn how to feel safe in their own bodies, to be able to really
32:32
go internally and see those vulnerable parts and heal those
32:35
parts. And so for partners, it's really
32:38
painful when they hear that he has to learn how to have empathy
32:42
for himself, to have empathy for you.
32:44
That's really painful because it.
32:47
Yeah, actually men do respond to that because you get to do the
32:50
power of the and you did hurt her.
32:53
You did 'cause her. I mean, she is in this mess
32:56
because of your choices. You guys are here because of
32:58
what you did. And also what you were doing was
33:02
maladapted, but was a way of survival.
33:04
So we need to understand why that was your way to make it
33:08
through. And so you get both worlds to
33:10
exist, which tends to be compassion, right?
33:15
As we're talking about this, why would a man take a week off of
33:21
work and lose the financial money pay for an intensive like
33:27
what would actually benefit him? Here's what this I'm not liking
33:31
how the question is coming out. But let me just say, you were
33:36
going to do inpatient. You did inpatient, right?
33:38
And you had all of these hesitancies before all of these
33:43
internal blocks. And the big question you had is,
33:45
is this really going to make a difference?
33:48
Is this really going to matter? A is it actually helpful for a
33:54
guy to sign up for a group like this or sign up for an
33:57
intensive? Does it actually make a
33:59
difference? Is this something that he can
34:03
learn? Is this a skill?
34:06
Is this he just has to wait it out?
34:09
Does it get better with time? Like if he's in this place of
34:14
pain right now, he's listening to the podcast.
34:16
He's going, yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's some individual work.
34:19
But then he's questioning, do I do this helper heal group?
34:23
Do I do intensive? What would you say to him?
34:25
I would say there's this part of recovery.
34:32
What's step one of the 12 steps? Alana surrender.
34:36
Surrender. Yeah, and admit that it's bigger
34:38
than you. Admit that it's bigger than me
34:40
and recover doesn't list in isolation.
34:43
I think for me whether it was going to impatient, whether it
34:48
was attending an intensive, doing a disclosure, doing a
34:51
polygraph, I always, always like some level of control for me,
34:56
some level of isolation, some level of wanting to figure it
34:58
out on my own. So these intensives exist to be
35:02
able to pull men out of isolation and be able to pull
35:06
men into greater community so they can have further awareness
35:10
and come out of denial in areas that they can't do on their own.
35:13
And just recognizing something's going to hit for your hair, it's
35:17
not something's going to hit for your partner, it's not.
35:20
And what are, how are you doing it on your own?
35:23
How are you trying to figure it out?
35:24
Low level control exists on your own.
35:27
So can you step out of that level of control?
35:29
Can you let go? Can you surrender noticing?
35:33
I don't know. For me, it's accessing some
35:34
spiritual part of me that I have some help that's bigger than me
35:38
that led me and guided me to today and the experience to move
35:42
out of isolation and move into an invitation and not do it by
35:46
myself and to let go of control. And even if all I do is is let
35:51
go of control and it's serving my recovery so well to let go of
35:56
control and I'm putting my foot, I'm putting my recovery first in
36:01
front of other things. And I don't know where you all
36:04
are at, but controls the my controlling things is the reason
36:08
why I got me in a tough spot. So when I let go of control,
36:11
usually it pays off pretty well for me.
36:12
Usually it pays off pretty well. I think about an intensive.
36:17
I really like that with the connection and how that's so
36:20
essential and needed. And I think about an intensive
36:23
gives you hours and hours of therapy that you would take six
36:28
months or a year to get it. So I think that there's just
36:31
that benefit too. But I will say the reason I like
36:35
a group is I like week by week being able to have time to
36:41
internalize it. So you go to intensive, you get
36:45
that kick start, which really puts you on the right path and
36:49
puts you further forward. And then you get that weekly
36:52
support and that continual connection.
36:54
And Luke, I love that you said because you and I were talking
36:58
about this group and I was saying, hey, what are some
37:01
things that you see beneficial in groups?
37:04
And you said, I really like the question of who have you reached
37:09
out to this week and gotten healthy connection from?
37:12
Which ones of these other guys have you gotten support from and
37:15
have an accountability around that?
37:16
And I think that's so essential because I think you're right, we
37:20
get a lot of islands out there trying to manage and do it, and
37:25
it really is the hard way. I know I want to speak to those
37:30
of guys who are listening here today along.
37:32
I'm going to speak about you. You have a very beautiful brain
37:35
when it comes to seeing both sides of this experience.
37:38
The betrayed side and the compulsive behavior side.
37:42
Not only use the word attic side and be able to hold space for
37:45
both. I've seen you so beautifully
37:47
sitting in disclosure anywhere else and be able to help both
37:50
people see where they're at. So I was surprised to find out
37:54
that you were going to be open to running a helper Hill group
37:57
because of everything you have tackled, you're tackling in your
37:59
life. So for you all, I will strongly
38:02
encourage you to have the opportunity to sit.
38:04
And I know I'm biased. I know I'm biased and sit, sit
38:08
in a group with Alana and be able to have her help you
38:12
process through and articulate the why your partners where
38:15
they're at and and help you understand where you're at.
38:17
It's a big deal. Yeah, I will be bold in saying
38:20
that because I've watched it. This is where my CSAT training
38:24
and my ABSATS training really do go hand in hand.
38:28
And ultimately anytime I'm working with a man who has
38:32
betrayed his wife, I am looking at what he needs as an
38:36
individual to heal. And I'm constantly holding her
38:41
in my mind and the impacts of her and balancing the need for
38:47
his healing to be able to learn these skills to support her.
38:51
Because this is skills for a lot of these individuals, and I
38:56
would say for most humans, they were never taught this.
39:00
They were never taught a how to heal and recover from betrayal.
39:06
They were never taught how to repair, especially at this
39:09
level. They were never taught how to
39:11
hold emotions, how to recognize their own, how to know what's
39:15
happening in their own body and be aware and have awareness
39:19
around it. They're just not skills that
39:21
they were given. And so really in this journey,
39:25
it is learning these skills and it is expanding your own window
39:29
of tolerance and it is increasing in capabilities and
39:33
doing your own healing work. And the deeper you go in your
39:36
own healing, the deeper you're able to connect with your
39:39
partner and relationally to be able to go deeper and further
39:43
together. So it's hard work.
39:46
I'll tell people this type of work is Olympic level emotional
39:49
work. And it is absolutely possible.
39:54
But you have to be willing to be consistent and put 1 foot in
39:59
front of the other and take out one day at a time and finding
40:02
others who can help walk you on this journey so you don't do it
40:04
alone. Yeah, that's it.
40:07
Any final thoughts for you as we wrap up today?
40:10
No, just don't give up. I'll speak to the betraying
40:12
partner. It's a long haul.
40:14
It's like a long journey. It can feel.
40:16
There's some days that are so dark, so like, man, I feel like
40:20
we're doing circles in this or I feel like I'm doing circles,
40:23
feel like I'm losing hope, I'm losing steam.
40:25
Don't stop fighting like cry emote, like just be angry for a
40:32
moment. Have all those feelings.
40:34
Do it in a safe environment. Don't do it with your partner.
40:36
Don't be angry at her. Don't be angry in a way that can
40:39
be destructive, but fill everything.
40:41
I heard of the guy the other day and he was talking about I just
40:43
want my car. I just broke down and I cried
40:45
and I was like, hey, like you need that.
40:48
Have those tears. That's emoting.
40:50
That's lack of emotional is you're not emotionally
40:53
suppressing. This is a heavy journey.
40:55
Like it is hard and you get to feel that and then you get to
40:59
stand up later. You get to rise up and say I've
41:02
just felt that way for long enough now watch me stand up and
41:05
fight. Yeah, beautifully said.
41:10
Thank you. Thank you, Luke, for showing up
41:13
today and talking about this. I know for those of you
41:15
listening, it can feel like a heavy topic because there's such
41:19
hope and desire for healing and repair and there's been so much
41:23
damage caused. So I'm sending you the love and
41:27
the support and the reminder that healing is possible.
41:30
It takes the relational healing, takes 2 individuals who are each
41:35
willing to put in their own work and then come together.
41:39
And remembering that both of you have your own barriers to the
41:43
relational repair. So both of you do have your own
41:46
individual work to do to support the relational work betrayed
41:50
partners. You can't just wait for them to
41:53
do the work and fix it because it won't work.
41:55
And for the person who has betrayed, for that individual
41:58
seeking recovery, keep going even when you get discouraged.
42:02
Every time you get knocked to your knees, remember to brush
42:06
off, get back up and keep trying.
42:08
And that consistency is where the relational repair really
42:11
happens. So as always, thank you for
42:15
hanging out with us this week and we look forward to seeing
42:17
you all next week. If you're a man who's trying to
42:23
show up differently for your partner after betrayal, then
42:25
listen closely. The Helper Heal Intensive is a
42:27
four day immersive experience built for men who are ready to
42:31
take responsibility, build emotional skill and become safer
42:34
partners. This isn't talk therapy.
42:37
It's a hands on training and how to regulate, listen and respond
42:40
without getting defensive when things get hard at home.
42:44
You'll work alongside other men who are also serious about
42:46
change in a focused, confidential setting, so you're
42:50
not trying to figure this out alone.
42:52
My name is Hallie Roderick, and I'm both a professional and
42:54
someone who's lived through betrayal recovery.
42:57
Our team is here to give you the structure, the tools, and the
43:00
feedback you need to show up with consistency and integrity
43:03
in a way that supports real safety for your wife.
43:06
You'll leave with a clear plan for how to act differently,
43:09
communicate better, and continue rebuilding trust when you go
43:12
home. Check out the show notes For
43:15
more information or how to register.
43:17
If you're serious about helping her heal, this is where you
43:19
start. Hey, thanks for joining us
43:26
today. If this is something that you
43:28
connected with, I'd love to meet with you more and talk about it.
43:31
So what you can do is go to chooserecoveryservices.com or
43:34
check the show notes and there what we can do is set up a quick
43:37
conversation. Thanks so much for listening to
43:40
Beyond the Facade where we unmask the authentic self.