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Should Artists be Paid for Social Dancing? (S05 Ep60) · ZoukNerds • Learn | Build | Belong

0:00
I remember one time I was in Indonesia, in Jakarta and I went
0:03
to a social and then at one point this lady came and she
0:07
asked me, hey, are you allowed to dance with me?
0:10
And I was like in shock. One of the main arguments
0:13
against paying dancers to social dance is that they will lose
0:17
their desire to social dance or that they will social dance for
0:20
obligation. In festivals, there is a certain
0:23
issue with the expectation that the artists are there to dance
0:27
all night. This needs to be at the social
0:29
with the body tile that would otherwise go to rest.
0:31
That's when the obligation kicks in and that's when sometimes it
0:34
goes to social like I got to be here.
0:37
Five days of work, 4 hours paid. Would anybody do that in your
0:41
right mind? Nobody communication.
0:43
They said that the word should is the most violent word in the
0:46
English language. You're hiring people to social
0:49
dance disguised as teaching. Should artists be paid for
0:55
social dancing? Is it a service?
0:58
An obligation or a passion? This is a hot topic that
1:03
resurfaces every year, but can we find a clear answer?
1:08
Well, let's find out. Hello.
1:11
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Zuck Nerds.
1:14
In this episode, we are tackling the disconnect between what
1:18
artists are paid for and what they're expected to deliver.
1:22
We'll discuss the intense demands on artists and explore
1:26
why the current expectations for free social dancing can generate
1:31
resentment for some professionals.
1:33
It's time to seek clarity and the solution that benefits both
1:37
attendees and artists. So let's go.
1:49
Hello, hello everyone and welcome back.
1:52
My name is Alison Sanji and today we have our amazing and
1:55
beautiful Co host once again. Gee, brother.
1:58
Hello, Gee. Hello, Alison.
1:59
Hello everybody and welcome back.
2:01
In today's episode, we are going to approach a hot topic that has
2:07
resurfaced in the interwebs of social media, which is to talk
2:13
about the fact that some people do believe that artists may or
2:19
should be paid to social dance, and other people don't believe
2:23
that there is a place for that at all.
2:26
What is right? What is wrong?
2:29
What should we do in this topic? I'll be very clear about this,
2:34
guys. This is not a new topic
2:37
whatsoever. This is a topic that I remember
2:41
in my first few years of teaching being brought up
2:45
constantly for multiple reasons that we're going to bring later
2:50
in the episode. But let's just start with this
2:53
guy. What do you think about this?
2:56
Does it make you feel any type of way?
2:59
Right. Wrong, Positive, negative.
3:01
Oh man, that's a very interesting topic.
3:04
I have lots of opinions about it, especially because of my
3:09
history as a social dancer. I would say I don't see a
3:13
problem with it. I'm going to say right away that
3:16
I don't see a problem with it. Depending on how it's done, I
3:21
don't think the matter of paying a teacher to social dance, I
3:26
don't think that's a problem. I don't think that's something
3:28
that we should avoid. Not necessarily, you know,
3:31
depending on how it's done. Like everything, we have several
3:36
pros and several cons related to this topic.
3:40
Considering the current state of affairs in the partner dance,
3:45
social dance world, I can only speak for Brazilian Zook at the
3:49
moment. However, I listen.
3:51
What's the people that I know that belongs to the bachata and
3:54
to the salsa world, to the tango world?
3:58
I hear some of the things they share with me about the same
4:01
topic. There are some variations, of
4:04
course, because of the culture attached to each form of social
4:08
dancing, but in the end the concerns and the arguments for
4:15
paying a teacher to social dancing, the arguments against
4:18
be a teacher to social dancing are pretty similar.
4:22
O say right now right away that I don't see an issue with it.
4:26
Depending on how we approach depend on how we do it.
4:31
And what about you, wise? Well, for me, I think I want to
4:35
clarify that there are different ways to approach this, right?
4:39
So for example, bringing back to Brazil, we have contract
4:45
dancers, that's kind of how we call it, right?
4:49
Where some teachers or very experienced dancers or very
4:53
influential dancers in the social scene, they are paid by a
4:58
certain lead or by a certain follow to dance with them,
5:02
either the whole social or part of the social, which is
5:07
something that I discovered later when I started traveling,
5:11
that it's common in other areas in the world.
5:14
I remember one time I was in Indonesia in Jakarta and I went
5:19
to a social club. There was a social happening in
5:22
this hotel with live band and all of the things.
5:26
It was super fun and I was asking people to dance.
5:30
And then at one point this lady came to me and she asked me,
5:36
hey, are you allowed to dance with me?
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And I was like in shock. I'm like what?
5:41
What is going on? Yes, let's have a dance.
5:43
So I danced with this person and then afterwards I asked my
5:48
friend, hey, why did this person ask me if I'm allowed?
5:52
And she said, oh, Allison, I forgot to tell you.
5:55
You see, most of the people here that are dancing, they're
5:58
getting paid to dance with their client because it's common.
6:03
It's normal. Yes.
6:05
Granted, majority were followers asking leader teachers to dance
6:12
with them. So yes, it's not equal.
6:14
OK. But you got to understand, some
6:17
countries, some areas in the world, there is not this balance
6:22
between leaders and followers. Some communities are very heavy
6:26
on followers, much, much heavier than what we see in Europe or
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what we see in North America or even in Brazil.
6:34
So there's that way to pay for a social dance when you hire
6:39
somebody for an hour or for the whole social.
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And then there are things that I've heard from other
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communities where they sell tokens, where you can exchange a
6:50
token for a social dance. I'm not sure if that exists in
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Brazil or multiple places, but I've heard of that being a thing
7:00
as well. Whatever the reason is that
7:03
exists. And Guy, you might say that in
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Brazil there is. Right.
7:06
So we call it Bailey Jefficia. So this token.
7:10
How does that work? Is exactly that the person gets
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to the social and they buy a certain amount of tokens and
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each one of them is one dance. So there are several people
7:22
there available to dance. And like Alison said, the vast
7:25
majority are leaders who are available to dance.
7:29
And the vast majority of people that look for the service or
7:33
used to look for the service in my time were the older ladies.
7:39
And they would go buy several of these tokens and then each dance
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you have with them, they give you 1 token and the end of the
7:45
night you go and you exchange that token for a certain amount
7:50
of money. So each token was a small
7:53
amount. So I remember for us to do like
7:56
150 highs I think or something around that, we needed to have
8:02
danced almost every song of the night.
8:06
If we danced every single song of the night, we would make
8:10
between 150 and 200 highs. If we just got one token per
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this first song, because sometimes the ladies really
8:19
liked you and you dance one song with them and they'll give you
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like 3-4 tokens because it was much more common.
8:28
You dance one song and you change partners.
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So it was easy to keep track. It's one song each partner.
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And then because several of the guys dance in there, that was
8:40
sometimes one of their main sources of income.
8:43
They were there to dance the whole night.
8:46
Yeah. So that was their work.
8:50
And that's something really interesting because one of the
8:52
main arguments against paying dancers to social dance is that
8:57
they will lose their desire to social dance or that they will
9:00
social dance for obligation. And I met several of these boys
9:07
back then. I was one of them for a little
9:09
while. And then I realized that this
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was not for me. It was normally in Rio was on a
9:14
Wednesday. On a Wednesday, I would go to
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Copacabana after work. You know, it was like a late
9:20
social and dance there and need to go back.
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But it was a Wednesday, Thursday, I needed to go to work
9:27
again. So it was too much.
9:28
So it was not for me, but for a lot of the boys it was, I mean,
9:32
important source of income. And I connected with several of
9:35
them. And of course we always want to
9:38
know if they are doing this with joy or if they are just going
9:43
because they need to go. And some of them were doing
9:46
because they needed to or because it was one source of
9:49
income that they found. But there were others that liked
9:53
it. There were others that really
9:55
enjoyed doing it, you know. So this is something that I find
10:00
important to share because even though they were doing it for
10:04
the money or they started doing it for the money or they ended
10:08
up doing it for the money, they still enjoyed dancing.
10:13
They like dancing. They created a relationship with
10:17
the ladies that used to be regulars in these socials, and
10:20
you would see them interacting and you would see that they
10:23
became friends. So it was a service that they
10:27
were providing, and it was a service related to partner
10:31
dance, which ideally is something that you don't need to
10:34
pay to receive. Now, that's in the ideal world,
10:38
however in that circumstance, the ladies found that that was
10:43
the place that they would for sure get a dance.
10:47
So the certainty of dancing for them was more important to
10:52
whether or not the person who was dance with them was dance
10:55
with them because they wanted to.
10:57
And that's something really important to consider, guys, for
11:01
a big number of people in other countries and in Brazil, in Rio
11:06
de Janeiro, to be more specific, because that's the experience
11:08
that I had. They made an assessment and they
11:12
realize it's more important for me to social dance, to be
11:16
outside, to see people, to move my body, to connect with
11:21
someone. That's more important than
11:25
whether or not the person dance with me really wants to dance
11:29
with me, you know? So that's really important, I
11:33
think, and I think really beautiful to consider as well
11:37
the reason why someone is at the social for these ladies.
11:42
I just want to dance, you know, and I think it's important for
11:45
us to understand and respect that.
11:49
Absolutely. So summarizing what we've talked
11:52
about so far, there are the contract dancers that dance for
11:56
multiple hours with one person or maybe two people hire that
12:00
dancer and they share. They are the token dancers that
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they're being paid through tokens by the amount of dancers
12:09
that they have. And then there is the other idea
12:14
that has surfaced with paying like a donation base or paying
12:21
with like a part of your entrance fee of the party to be
12:26
towards that thing. Then I want now pivot to the
12:30
reality that we live in, for example, as teachers in a
12:35
festival or teachers that are local or teachers travelling for
12:40
weekenders, more specifically to festivals because I think that
12:45
is where the biggest issue is from the attendees perspective
12:50
and from the artist perspective. So let me talk from the artist
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perspective first. OK, So paint the picture, you
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are being hired and taking away from home for five days.
13:02
All the event is only three days, yes, but there is the
13:05
travel day and a lot of the times that travel day, you can't
13:08
do much about your life. You're travelling, you're going
13:10
through airports, you're doing connections or you're going to
13:13
another country. So five days out of your home
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and you're teaching for four hours over those five days and
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you're only getting paid for those four hours.
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Let's say somebody makes $250 an hour, €250, whatever currency
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you want to put this, that's 1000 for five days of work, OK,
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when they could be home and get that same amount over one day,
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sleep in their bed, sleep 8 hours a night, eat their own
13:44
food and be with their family if they have one or be with their
13:48
friends, OK, or just be alone sometimes that's all you need.
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So then in festivals, there is a certain issue with the
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expectation that the artists are there to dance all night.
14:01
I think from the artist's perspective, I can speak for
14:04
myself and I think Guy would agree.
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We love to social dance and as long as we are not extremely
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tired or in pain, we will be there.
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We'll be social dancing with no expectations.
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But as we have seen over the last few years, especially since
14:22
after the pandemic, there's been a change in the community that
14:27
some dancers, they are teaching at events, but they are dancers,
14:34
OK? They love to dance, they love to
14:37
train, they love to create. Did they start traveling the
14:42
world and became a teacher because they wanted to become a
14:46
teacher? No, a lot of them do it because
14:50
they love to dance and they're great at doing that one thing,
14:54
dancing. Now, when you look at that,
14:56
that's not a social dancer by love.
14:59
That is a dancer by love. Somebody who loves to express
15:04
their art. Social dancing may not be their
15:06
passion. Other dancers became famous and
15:10
became a teacher because they were social dancers, and that is
15:14
a different path. And for myself and for Guy, we
15:17
were social dancers and both sisters for so many years before
15:23
we even tapped into teaching, before we even tapped into doing
15:27
a demo or having people looking at us.
15:31
So there's different types of motivations.
15:35
I am not saying one right and one is wrong.
15:38
All I'm trying to paint the picture here for you guys is
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that we do have different types of artists.
15:44
We've always had, but I think it's more obvious nowadays.
15:49
OK, sidetracking a little bit. Some of you may be familiar with
15:54
RuPaul's Drag Race, which is a show that I love and I'm a super
15:58
fan. Since the first season, there's
16:01
been a lot of discussion on that talent show.
16:03
For those of you who don't know, it's a talent show for drag
16:06
Queens. OK, let's put into picture
16:09
talent show for supermodels, talent show for dancers.
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A lot of these people, just like in our community, they came from
16:17
the ground up. But others, they are the new
16:21
generation. They came from social media, so
16:25
they don't have the skills from the ground up of being able
16:30
sister, being a social dancer, being all of this for many years
16:34
and teaching beginner's class night after night for years
16:38
before they got to being famous and traveling the world.
16:42
And that is OK. There is a space for that now,
16:47
whether those people want to be at the social every night,
16:50
social dancing with everybody for free or not.
16:53
That is a point that we want to discuss.
16:56
Whether we that came from social dancing would like to maybe
17:01
receive something as a compensation, as a gift for
17:05
being at a social and dancing either early in the middle of
17:09
the night or late. That's what we want to discuss
17:12
here. For example, talking about the
17:14
token, right? I was discussing with some
17:17
friends and I thought about some ideas because I'm always
17:20
thinking about charity or thinking about the community on
17:23
how we could do this in a way that hopefully can be
17:28
productive. So if we were to paint a picture
17:31
where paying for dancing becomes the norm or become something
17:37
that is acceptable by most people in the community, I see
17:40
that this can be done in a positive way.
17:43
So let's say we do one hour of the social, people can buy a
17:48
token to get a dance with somebody.
17:51
It can be a teacher, it can be a guest, it can be somebody in the
17:55
social. And that token can be donated
17:58
either to charity. So whatever that person paid,
18:01
the money goes to charity. Or if it's an event that is
18:05
trying to embrace the community and be more inclusive, that
18:09
money can be towards subsidizing full passes for people in the
18:14
community that cannot pay for the event or to buy food for the
18:19
volunteers or to provide something back to the community.
18:26
So in that case, I see a something like, you know what,
18:29
I'll be happy to give my one hour and dance with as many
18:33
people as possible and get the tokens.
18:35
And then those tokens, I know that will not come for me.
18:38
It's OK, but it will go towards something back to the community.
18:42
That's one thing. The other thing, like I said,
18:45
back in our days we did this kind of things because it was
18:49
our source of income. For some it was supplementary,
18:53
for some it was the only income because the competition in
18:58
Brazil to become a teacher is huge.
19:02
So some of these people in Brazil, they are teacher level,
19:07
but they don't have the opportunity to teach.
19:09
So what do they do? They go to socials and they get
19:12
paid to social dance, OK. And that is a reality that I do
19:17
see happening outside of Brazil. There's so many amazing
19:21
beautiful dancers that dedicate their lives to social dancing
19:25
across the globe that work 2 jobs, work however they can and
19:30
they sleep in friends place and all of that just to afford the
19:33
passion. So wouldn't it be nice if those
19:36
people could also get something out of their social dancing?
19:41
Now, I don't necessarily like the idea of if I don't get paid,
19:47
I'm not going to the party personally, that's not for me.
19:51
But, and I'm going to call the shot here, I see that becoming
19:56
something that will be normal in the future.
19:59
I just see that because I already see that in other
20:03
communities. There are other dance
20:05
communities or arts communities. That the talent that came to
20:10
teach and came to perform, they don't go to socialize, they
20:14
don't go to the party. They came to teach, they came to
20:16
perform. Back to the hotel, beautiful
20:19
night of sleep tomorrow. They teach, they perform again.
20:23
So I see that there is a space for that level as well.
20:26
OK, so with this conversation here, Guy and I, we really just
20:30
want to open the mind of how we see this instead of just seeing
20:37
it from a personal side of like, if I ever have to pay for a
20:41
social dance or if I ever get paid for a social dance, I think
20:44
it's wrong. Well, like I mentioned with my
20:48
examples, I think there is a positive way for either whether
20:54
you're a social dancer receiving the dance or whether you're a
20:57
talent, an artist providing that service.
21:00
Because in the end of the day, this is a service industry, OK,
21:04
Service industry anywhere in the world.
21:06
You have to pay something to get something.
21:09
Right. Yeah, exactly.
21:11
And it's a very good point. We are providing a service,
21:15
right. And one of the most important
21:17
things I think to keep in mind is that the service that we are
21:20
paid to provide and speaking as a teacher now is the class.
21:25
So we are explicitly paid to provide a service of teaching a
21:30
dance class. With teaching a dance class come
21:34
all these other expectations and that includes social dancing.
21:38
So on paper we are paid to teach the class.
21:43
But on the expectation side, we expected to social dance, we
21:48
expected to do the teacher presentation, we expected to
21:51
dress in a certain way in the theme of the party.
21:54
So there are all these other expectations attached to what
21:59
you being actually paid for. So there is a part of me that
22:03
thinks that if we bring more clarity, if we bring more, like
22:09
we are being explicitly paid for more than teaching, I think he
22:15
brings a Peace of Mind to my people.
22:17
I don't think you can like understand the Peace of Mind
22:21
that I think that that would bring because several artists,
22:24
several teachers, they struggle with the idea that they are
22:30
being paid for this thing while having all disorders
22:33
expectations attached to it. You know, So we might think that
22:38
by paying them to social dance, they might lose.
22:41
Like this is spontaneous joy of social dancing, I think will be
22:47
the reverse. Actually.
22:48
I think if you make explicit something that is implicit, I
22:53
think that this person will dance with more desire to dance
22:57
because there is an incentive to do something that they already
23:01
are doing, but they are already doing without the full desire to
23:07
do, without being paged. They are already dancing by
23:10
obligation, you know, and I'm not talking about everybody
23:13
here. Yeah, I've talked about people
23:15
that I know, people that I have talked to because like Allison
23:19
said, Addison, I think that was a very good point.
23:22
Some of those who are teaching at the moment, they are dancers,
23:27
artists that came into the role of teaching.
23:31
And with the teaching comes the social dancing and there are
23:36
social dancers, hardcore social dancers that came to the role of
23:40
teaching. So for one group the social
23:43
dancing aspect comes more easily than for the other group.
23:48
So I was a Bosista in Xiaomi for six years and then I was able to
23:53
see this other place for two more years than two more years.
23:55
So 678910, I was a Bosista for around 10 years until I started
24:01
paying for classes that I paid for classes two years.
24:05
And in all this time I was a dance escort.
24:09
I danced with the same lady for six years.
24:13
Yeah. And I would dance with all these
24:14
other ladies from time to time and would go to the socials
24:18
where most of the people in that social, like Alison said, were
24:22
hired by someone to dance with them.
24:24
And there was a relationship between the people.
24:28
There's, like we said with the tokens, the same happens when
24:31
you were hired by the same person for a very long time.
24:34
So imagine I did six years with the same person.
24:38
We know a lot about each other's lives.
24:40
We talked a lot. The things that for a long time
24:44
I was providing a service. The service was social dancing.
24:48
And because I was providing A suffer, it doesn't mean that I
24:51
didn't want to be there dancing with her.
24:53
On the contrary, sometimes I would look forward to dance with
24:57
her until we got to the point that we take the money out of
25:01
the transaction. Then I started this with her
25:04
because I wanted you in the sense that you don't need to pay
25:09
me anymore and I still want to dance with you.
25:12
And we kept going out to dance on Fridays, going to our tango
25:15
social in Lapa, you know. So I think this relationship
25:20
that is done with the payment to the lack of desire to dance, or
25:24
does that dance by obligation, it simplifies something that is
25:28
actually really complex, you know, the reasons why somebody's
25:32
doing what they're doing, the reasons why somebody's dancing.
25:35
I think because of my long history as a social dancer
25:40
before becoming a teacher, the environment of the social has a
25:44
very particular meaning to me. So I'm able to switch gears in
25:49
my brain and social dance without the thinking that I have
25:53
to until I'm tired. If I'm really tired, I thought
25:58
the whole day and the social starting at 10 or at 11 and
26:03
comes this thing, oh, I need to be at the social.
26:06
This need to be at the social with the body tired that would
26:09
otherwise go to rest. That's when the obligation kicks
26:12
in. And that's when sometimes I go
26:14
to the social like I got to be here.
26:17
So more than I need to be here or I'm willing to be here versus
26:22
I want to be here, you know, so far they want to be here is
26:26
there when I'm rested, when I'm fed, when all these things are
26:31
good, I really want to social dance.
26:33
It's no obligation whatsoever on the body's tired.
26:36
It's a very different story. So everything is malleable.
26:41
It has so many different aspects for us to keep in mind, to keep
26:45
into consideration. So yeah, I think nails on this
26:51
relationship of, oh, now because we have to pay, we are losing
26:55
the nature of the social dance to people shouldn't be paid to
26:59
social dance. I think it's simplistic.
27:01
I think it's a simplistic point of view that doesn't consider
27:06
the high complexity that exists in this field of ours.
27:12
Yeah. And talking as an organizer now,
27:14
OK. So I think so far I've organized
27:17
what, 1516 festivals and I see the value of hiring somebody
27:26
just to teach or hiring somebody just to social dance.
27:30
There are teachers that I would happily pay and tell them, hey,
27:34
guys, this is how much is your class.
27:36
OK, cool. I'm just gonna pay for your
27:39
class. No socials.
27:40
Don't worry about it. If you wanna show up, sure.
27:43
But there's no expectations for the social at all.
27:46
And then other artists that are like, hey, Allison, I wanna come
27:49
and teach and social dance. I'll be there every night.
27:51
And I'm like, OK, what's your fee teaching fee?
27:54
Is this social dancing? Is this cool?
27:56
I'll pay for both because I know they will do it.
27:59
I know that they love to social dance and they always bring a
28:03
huge value for the attendees. Once again, guys, I'm talking as
28:08
an organizer because this is business, OK?
28:12
People paid for a full pass. They want certain services.
28:16
They have certain expectations. So as an organizer, I'm trying
28:18
to meet those expectations. And then yes, I would probably
28:23
either pay or comp and give free passes to a few dancers and go
28:28
like, hey, I'll give you a free pass or I'll give you this much
28:31
money and your task is 2 hours every night.
28:35
You go social dance with as many people as possible, especially
28:38
those who are not dancing with anybody else.
28:42
If you see somebody who's been sitting down for 5 or 10
28:46
minutes, go there and ask that person.
28:48
If somebody asks you for a dance and you see that they've been
28:50
dancing already, say no, I'm sorry.
28:52
I'm I'm gonna ask that other person first because they
28:55
haven't been dancing for a while.
28:57
This is what I want to do or this is my job tonight or for
29:01
the next hour, whatever there is.
29:03
So there are ways that we can actually see this as a benefit
29:09
to the attendees and to the community instead of thinking
29:13
that this is a cash grab from the artist perspective.
29:17
Oh, the artist just want to make some more money.
29:19
Oh, the artist just want all the money in the world.
29:22
OK, let's backtrack. 5 days of work, 4 hours paid.
29:27
Would anybody with a professional career of being
29:32
self-employed and having no guarantees that if you break a
29:35
foot you're going to get paid or you're going to get sick leave
29:38
if you're sick, would you do that in your right mind?
29:41
I think dancers are the only crazy people who do that.
29:44
I do that because I love it. And you know, like I know I'm
29:48
the crazy one, but just put yourself in that shoe.
29:52
And the other thing that I want to mention here is that I've had
29:56
this conversation with other people and they're like, well,
29:58
but if they're only teaching like one hour a day, why are
30:01
they so tired? Shouldn't they just be resting
30:03
for the rest of the day and just, you know, social dancing
30:06
all night? I'm like, sure, but remember 5
30:10
days that they could be getting paid at home.
30:13
They're not. So what are they doing?
30:15
Teaching private lessons? They're trying their best to
30:18
complement their income because festivals don't make money.
30:23
Festivals don't have a lot of money to throw around.
30:26
So most of the times teachers do charge a lower or a reasonable
30:32
fee, like counting on some private lessons to supplement
30:37
that value and go like, OK, the event is going to give me this
30:40
much and I'm going to make the other 50% with private lessons
30:45
or with any other thing. OK, so there it is.
30:49
You know, you have to somehow make it work financially as an
30:54
artist. So talking as an artist now
30:57
going back to talking as an organizer, I really see the
31:00
value on providing different experiences for attendees.
31:06
So there are attendees who barely get to social dance.
31:10
Maybe they would be happy to enter this one hour or two.
31:15
I'm not somebody who would like to do or defend that this should
31:19
be done all night. I'm just going to put it out
31:21
there. I do support the idea with
31:24
certain parameters. OK, so two hours of the social,
31:29
one hour of the social. We have that thing happening.
31:33
And then before and after that, it's a fruit for all.
31:36
Do as you wish. OK, So I think that as an
31:40
organizer, this could be a beneficial thing for the
31:43
attendees. Now, what happens to the money?
31:47
That's a separate thing. It's a separate conversation
31:49
that you can have with the community.
31:52
You can have with the organizers or you can have with the
31:54
teachers. You know, like there are events
31:57
that are more charity or community focus, so they would
32:01
do that thing. There are events that don't have
32:05
enough money to pay the artists, so they will go like, hey guys,
32:08
we're going to do this and this is going to be part of your
32:10
payment. Some artists may be OK with
32:12
that. And there are events like Gay
32:16
mentioned in Rio that that social is specifically called
32:21
the token social. Token social biology Fisher.
32:24
Yeah, OK. Biology Fisher token social so
32:28
if you're going to that social, you know how it works, but also
32:32
you know you're going to get what you want and some people
32:35
are very happy with that and that's exactly my.
32:37
Point. You know what you're getting.
32:39
It's very clear. You know, if you buy the thing,
32:42
you're going to get a dance. That's all.
32:44
Yeah. For example, I choose to pay
32:48
more for a massage whenever I go for a massage because I don't
32:52
book. If I book and it's a certain
32:54
time of the day when they're very much booked out, it's
32:59
cheaper. But because I need the
33:01
flexibility in my life and I prefer to have the flexibility,
33:04
I pay more. But I get what I want.
33:06
I get to have a massage when I want, but I'm going to have to
33:10
pay more. OK, so this may not be so
33:13
relatable to everyone listening or to people who understand the
33:19
community from a different perspective, such as a student
33:23
or social dancer. But looking at the community
33:26
through the lenses of being in every seat over the last 20
33:30
years, I do think there is an opportunity for a conversation
33:35
because at this point, it's not that.
33:39
Is it going to happen for me at this point, what I see is that
33:44
it is going to happen. Now, how we go to that, how we
33:49
get there is something that I think we can do better.
33:52
You know, how whatever people complain about the community
33:56
today, we could have done a better job maybe 5 or 10 years
33:59
ago to not be in a negative situation today.
34:03
So if we think about how we can incorporate this in a way that
34:08
makes sense for both parties, I think it's something that people
34:13
will not see it as negative as it is right now in the social
34:19
media as the conversation is happening this week, which is
34:22
the week of mid-october. But as well, like this
34:26
conversation has been part of the community forever.
34:30
At least once a year this thing explodes.
34:32
Same topic every year. Yeah, it's been around for a
34:35
while and I think I'm more skeptical than you.
34:38
I saw a little bit about how early this is going to happen.
34:41
I don't think in the residence zoo community it's going to
34:43
happen anytime soon to be honest from what I see.
34:48
Mostly maybe not from the social dancers, but I can tell you that
34:52
for at least I'm going to say close to 15 years, but at least
34:56
the last 10100% full confidence. For the last 10 years I've heard
35:02
of multiple top travelling couples saying look guys, I'm
35:07
going to start charging for social.
35:09
Yeah, no. I'm going to start charging for
35:11
social. I'm going to put that in my
35:12
contract. Yeah, I heard it too.
35:14
It hasn't happened. It hasn't happened.
35:15
I mean, it has happened maybe a year or two, but there was a
35:19
huge backlash. But you know, that's why I'm
35:22
saying like we just need to have a better conversation about it
35:25
instead of doing it and seeming like you're selfish person who
35:31
just wants to make a lot of money.
35:33
I think the main issue for me is that when I see some of these
35:38
conversations happening, I see a lot of shoots.
35:41
You know, there's a lot of the shoulds being thrown around.
35:44
This should be like this because we should dance with this in
35:47
mind. We should, should, should,
35:48
should. And one of the most revealing
35:51
things that I learned when I learned about Novato
35:53
communication and other forms of communications, that this
35:57
should, the idea of a should is the most complicated.
36:00
There is Novato communication. They said that the world should
36:03
is the most violent words in an English language because implies
36:08
that something's obvious, implies that something has to be
36:12
in a certain way, and if it's not in that way, it's wrong.
36:16
Coming from the Brazilian culture and in the tango culture
36:18
as well, I know the ballroom culture has some of these things
36:21
and concerts like Philippines and Indonesia that you have
36:25
people that are paid to social dance.
36:28
Are you going to say that all these people that are paying to
36:32
social dance or they are being paid to social dance are not as
36:35
engaged in the social dancing as those who are not being paid?
36:39
Can you say that? You know, I don't think we can.
36:43
And it's impossible to say that because in my experience we are
36:47
as engaged in the social dancing as we would be paid or unpaid.
36:52
I was paid as a taxi dancer for a marathon once.
36:58
I was going to dance anyways, you know, But I danced even more
37:03
with the joy, with the excitement, with the engagement,
37:06
and I was being paid for it. So the payment didn't alter the
37:12
nature of my soul when I was engaged in social dancing, you
37:18
know what I mean? Because what is the issue when
37:21
you are hiring someone, when the artist is there, who is being
37:24
paid to teach? Like you're saying, hey, Alison,
37:28
five days, sometimes more, sometimes a little less, is
37:31
dedicated to be at that place and there is an expectation to
37:35
social dance. This generates resentment.
37:38
You generate sometimes resentment that piles up over
37:41
time. There are places, my people, and
37:45
you know this. If you are as deep in the
37:47
Brazilian world as we are, there are places in which the dancing
37:52
with the teacher is the whole reason why somebody's going to
37:57
that weekend or to that event. They are not going for the
38:00
classes. They are going to dance with the
38:03
teacher. There are people that only come
38:05
out to social dance when there is a visiting structure.
38:09
You know, again, that person is there to provide the teaching
38:13
service. Of course, by the nature of our
38:17
activity, social dancing is what we do.
38:20
We are teaching people how to social dance.
38:21
So we social dance to be reference points with social
38:25
dance because that's our thing. We like to social dance.
38:30
The thing is, when people are going just to dance with you,
38:34
regardless of the class, what is the main activity, The class or
38:38
the social dance clearly is the social dance.
38:42
I went to a place once and the organizers send the feedback
38:46
forms. When I travel, I have a no lines
38:49
policy. I don't want people to line up
38:51
and I don't respect the line. You know, I want you invite
38:55
people to dance. I want to be a little bit more
38:57
random because the people who are more shy, they don't get in
39:00
line, you know. So then we want to invite those
39:03
who are sitting who are shy and don't want to bother the
39:06
artists. So I have a no lines policy and
39:09
people respect that request that I make in the beginning, but in
39:15
the feedback form that we received, it was negative
39:18
because the person came from far away just to dance with me.
39:23
And because the no lines policy, they didn't get in line and they
39:27
ended up not getting a dance. So they pay the tickets, they
39:31
travel, they danced the whole night, they took the classes,
39:34
but they didn't social dance with me.
39:36
So the overall feedback was negative.
39:40
You know, and some other places they hire teachers, but the
39:45
point is not the class. Again, the point is to social
39:47
dance. So they have a line system of
39:49
some sort. It's either a number or a list
39:53
or a memorize. Again, what is the main
39:56
activity? Is it the class or the social
39:58
dance? So I think that's the
40:00
conversation that we need to have.
40:02
What are you hiring people for? You are hiring people to social
40:06
dance disguised as teaching. You know, and then it's so
40:11
interesting because when I present this idea to some
40:13
organizers, you see their minds glitching.
40:16
You know, because we are so used to the idea that a teacher comes
40:20
to teach that considering that you bring someone just to social
40:24
desk, impede that person just to social dance, so absurd in some
40:29
people's minds that they cannot even compute.
40:32
But then I ask what is the main thing they're coming to do?
40:36
They say to social dance. So like, OK, so why don't you
40:39
take the classes away? And the big feature of your
40:42
Weekender is social dancing. You do a some sort of like,
40:46
quote UN quote, like a mini marathon, which the feature is
40:49
the social dance. And the teacher is there
40:52
available for four hours, the same amount of time that they
40:55
would teach, teach for four hours, social dance for four
40:58
hours. So swap one for the other.
41:00
I'm pretty sure the person will be there, happy, engaged to
41:05
social that I would be, you know, so sorry, I got a little
41:09
hit it up here. But I think in the end, guys, we
41:12
are being completely hypercritical about the reasons
41:16
why we go to an event in Portuguese.
41:19
We have this thing. Put your hand in your
41:20
consciousness. Yeah, boy, Amo Nacon Ciencia,
41:25
put your hand in your consciousness and ask why do you
41:28
go for the weekend there? Why do you go for the festival?
41:32
If you say I'm going for the festival to learn, I'm going for
41:36
the festival to dance with my friends, and if God wants, if
41:40
Buddha allows, I'll dance with one of the teachers.
41:43
Amazing. Could you go?
41:45
But if you ask the same question and say, Oh no, I'm actually
41:48
going to dance with the teacher, you know, So know that this
41:52
person is being paid for something else entirely.
41:55
You know, again, everything is malleable.
41:59
Everything is complex, like we're saying we teach social
42:02
dance, so social dance is our main thing and we do want to be
42:06
on the floor showcasing how social dance can be, can look
42:11
like, can feel like the energy 100%.
42:15
The thing for me is that we are mindful of the expectations.
42:20
What is the expectation that you are creating for that person
42:24
over there? Because Alison and I, we've
42:26
heard so many times people also social media going hard on the
42:31
teachers because they are not social dance.
42:35
You know, everybody, they should be social, they should shows up
42:38
again, they are social dance teachers.
42:39
They should be on the floor. You know, I agree that is good
42:44
for the person to be on the floor showcasing what he or she
42:48
is saying in class now demonstrating what they are
42:51
saying class live in front of you.
42:54
But then if you have that as an obligation, he changes
42:58
completely. You know what I mean?
43:00
So keep those things in mind. My people, you know, I was a
43:04
lawyer and I was paid to be in the firm.
43:08
But then there was an expectation there will be
43:11
outside of the firm replying to the emails.
43:14
We needed to put the app of Outlook on the phone.
43:18
It was a requirement for us to be responding to emails outside
43:22
of the office. But we're like, no, but I'm
43:25
being paid to be at the office, you know, But there's this
43:28
obligation, this expectation. And then if you don't reply the
43:31
emails outside of working hours, you are not seeing with a good
43:36
eye sometimes because we're not putting too much effort.
43:40
So it's kind of similar to us here.
43:42
We are being paid to teach, but there is this expectation for us
43:45
to do these other things, you know, So it's very complex,
43:50
guys. It's very complex.
43:52
So I really think it's not very healthy if we go into this
43:57
should be like this, this should be like that before having a
44:00
more ample conversation with all people involved.
44:06
And taking into consideration each location situation, each
44:11
community situation, each event. Some events more about learning,
44:16
other events are more about social.
44:18
OK. So when you go for a learning
44:20
event, an event that is all about two hour classes or one
44:24
hour and a half classes or long afternoon classes, all of that,
44:30
that's the main thing. The social is a place that
44:33
you're kind of going to practice what you've been working very
44:35
hard all day. But then if it's an event that
44:38
you're just going and it's party, party, party, party, then
44:41
that's the main thing of the event.
44:43
But like I said before, I think nowadays we have a lot more
44:48
artists that are being featured globally that didn't come
44:54
through the usual path from being a social dancer to being
44:58
an assistant, to being a local teacher to them being a
45:01
travelling teacher. They came from social media,
45:04
they came from being amazing dancers and they might actually
45:08
be happier, give better classes and give even more attention and
45:13
possibly social dance with a little bit more passion.
45:18
If they're not expected to social dance and they're just
45:21
getting paid to teach and perform, and then they decide to
45:25
go to the social because they're craving that social.
45:27
They go and they dance all night.
45:29
But then if you make them come on the Thursday night, the
45:31
Friday night, the Saturday night, the Sunday night, and be
45:33
there for four hours, every hour of those four hours will be
45:38
with, you know, not that excitement and maybe some
45:42
resentment. So I think there's a space for a
45:45
conversation. I think there's a way to
45:47
accommodate the desires of the attendees or let's be more clear
45:53
here, the clients. And also there are ways to have
45:57
a conversation and please also the artists, the talents, the
46:02
people who are being hired to come to an event.
46:05
And that's what we want here. We want to start this
46:08
conversation to open up this book that a lot of people maybe
46:14
don't even know exists. Maybe you didn't even know this
46:17
was a thing in Brazil as a community.
46:20
But let me tell you, it's not just a thing in the Brazil as a
46:22
community. It's a thing in any dance
46:24
community. And the reason why a lot of
46:27
people actually don't like the dance community or stop social
46:30
dancing because there are many things in the dance community
46:33
that is not going to be how you want it.
46:36
But with us here, having this open conversation with you guys,
46:41
hoefully this can give you a perspective and understand a
46:45
little bit more and make better conscious decisions.
46:48
And actually, if you're organizing an event, maybe you
46:51
can change a little bit of how you run things.
46:55
If you are an attendee, maybe you can think differently on
47:00
what events do you want to attend, for what purpose you
47:03
want to attend, and kind of like frame your expectations a little
47:07
bit better. Organizers can frame their own
47:10
expectations and requirements a little bit better and the
47:14
artists to also understand their obligations and expectations a
47:18
little bit better. That's all we want here.
47:21
And that's what we hope that we did today in this episode.
47:25
Yeah, I think the main point for me my people is that we provide
47:30
clarity. If we can increase clarity,
47:32
there will be so beautiful and already make a big difference.
47:36
Like some contracts, for example, we received the
47:40
contract and there is a part of social dancing.
47:42
We expect the artist to be X amount of hours in these many
47:47
socials of the event, beautiful, amazing.
47:51
We know what is happening, we know what we're going for.
47:54
There are some events that have, for example, the teacher hour or
47:58
the instructor hour, the power hour that participants know that
48:03
for this hour they will find all the teachers in the room.
48:06
And that was agreed upon. And that's all, guys.
48:09
If we have more agreements and more clarity, you'll be so
48:13
amazing already, you know, And then we can move to the payment
48:16
thing later. But with this clarity, Oh my
48:20
gosh, life can be so much better.
48:23
And with that in mind, we thank you once again for being here
48:26
with us and we hope that you've enjoyed another episode.
48:30
And please don't forget to subscribe, follow, like, share,
48:35
send this to a friend that maybe don't know Zook nerds yet.
48:39
And hopefully we can continue growing and doing this.
48:43
Sometimes tough conversations, but other times educational or
48:47
inspiring or just sometimes when we go to the moon, you know, all
48:53
of that that we love to do here, Zook nerds, and we're looking
48:56
forward to being here with you on the next episode.
48:59
So thank you. Thank you once again bitches.
49:02
Bitches, everybody abrasos and Ciao.
49:06
Everybody to next time.