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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Suicide by Overdose or Something Far More Sinister - The Murder of · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. You know, I guess since
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: about twenty thirteen twenty twelve, I've appeared on various television
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: networks over that period of time, and one of the
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: things I've taken great pleasure in is the fact that
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: I wear ties on air. I love it. And the
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: reason I love it is that I buy my ties
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: at thrift stores. Because so many people spend so much
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: money to look really good on air. I go out
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: and I find the coolest ties I can find, and
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: I wear them on air. I think part of it
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: just has to go with the fact that I grew
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: up with not a lot of money, and I like
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: to kind of display that on air, that you can
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: look good without spending a bunch of money. But the
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: case I'm going to cover today actually talks about a
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: favorite tie. It talks about a favorite tie that a
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: gentleman like to wear on a regular basis. It talks
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: about an overdose involving Fentnel, and it talks about a
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: relationship gone bad. Today we're going to talk about the
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: home side of Francis Kelly. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: this is Bodybacks. Joining me today is my friend Jackie Howard,
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: executive producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie, I
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: don't know about you. When I was a kid, you
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: had to get all gussied up to go to church,
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: and part of that was wearing a tie, of warning
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: to tie my entire life. And you know, it's hard
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: for me not to wear a tie, I think when
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: I go out in the public and that sort of
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: thing to do appearances and whatnot. People are more casual
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: about it. But some of us guys just like our ties.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: And in this particular case, this poor fellow had a
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: tie that he loved, he loved, and he apparently wore
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: it on a regular basis, and interestingly enough, this tie
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: actually led to his death. Well, I'm going to tell you, Joe,
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: while I did get gussied up to go to church,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: I can categorically tell you I did not wear a tie.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: We're talking today about forty six year old Francis Kelly.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: When Francis Kelly's body was discovered, police found him on
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: his couch in his home and a bag of cocaine
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: underneath him. But at the time they did observe some
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: bruising around his eyes, elbow's knees, and hand. However, there
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: was no evidence to suggest that foul play was involved
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: in Kelly's death, so initially before the autopsy they made
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: some assumptions that he had in fact odd because he
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: had this bag of cocaine. The autopsy discovered that Kelly
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: was strange and sustained blunt force trauma to his head,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: and it wasn't cocaine that was found in his system,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: but as you mentioned, fentanyl. So let's talk first about
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: the difference between fentnyl and cocaine and what each would
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: do to you having that in your system. Yeah, you know,
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: you're not going to see a lot of differences, I
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: don't think externally as a result of cocaine abuse versus
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: fentnyl abuse. There are certain things that you can look for.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: People that use cocaine many times will have a real
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: wasted appearance. I guess as a result of you know,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: kind of hyperactivity. They don't keep weight on them very well.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Back in the eighties, when people snorted a lot of cocaine,
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: you'd have spontaneous nosebleeds. I've actually worked workcases of snorting
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: cocaine where individuals have eroded the septum in their nose.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: You know, that cardilaginous separation that you have between both
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: of your nostrils, and it kind of aulterates that sort
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: of thing, and those are things that you look for,
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: and you look for needle tracks as well. But you
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: know you can have needle tracks associated with the use
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: of a fentanyl and cocaine as well. You know, they're
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: both rendered down. You can put it in a liquid
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: form and essentially injected, So you're not going to see
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: a lot of differences necessarily just upon initial observation of
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: subjects at the scene. So you know, what do you
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: turn to, Well, you turn to any kind of changes
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: that might have happened internally, and that's one of the
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: things that we do. You know, at autopsy with cocaine
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: in particular, you might see signs of particularly those individuals
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: that have long term abuse of cocaine, you'll see hypertensive
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: changes in the heart that you get a condition called
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: left ventricular hypertrophe, and that's just kind of a fancy
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: term for saying that the wall of the heart thickens.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Say that again, left ventricular hypertrophe, and so you begin
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: to see it with the the actual wall of the
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: heart began to thicken, and it's as a result of
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: individual's drug use. Sometimes it can be a natural event
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: as well, and there'll be the thickening that occurs, and
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: we do measurements on the walls of the heart at
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: autopsy to give an idea if it's it's what they
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: refer to as it's normal anatomical configuration. And you know,
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: if you see some kind of anomaly like that, you
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: might say, well, you know what, maybe this person has
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: just got severe hypertension, maybe they've got something else genetic
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: that you know, will genetically predispose them to some of
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: these things, or it could be a drug related event
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: like them utilizing cocaine, particularly on a regular basis. Cocaine
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: is actually a stimulant. It's going to increase the metabolic
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: activity in our body. It pushes your blood pressure up,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: these sorts of things. But fitting along the hand, it's
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: a synthetic opiate. That means it's created an a laboratory
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: and it depresses the system. So, you know how we
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: talked about the heart relative to the cocaine. If you
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: begin to think about the lungs relative to fentyl, that's
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: what really is hammered in the body. And many times
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: when you have an individual that has died, particularly of
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: what's referred to as acute OD and acute you know,
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: just so we understand, acute is like a sudden event
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: as opposed to chronic, which means long term. But if
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: you have an acute event involving an opiate like this,
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: you'll have people that have very very heavy lungs at autopsy.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: That means that they'll be heavily congested. They'll weigh more
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: than they normally should. Because we weigh each organ in
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: a scale. And I don't know if people know this,
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: but it's kind of a horrible thought. The next time
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: you go to the grocery store and you see a
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: scale that that's in the produce aisle, that is exactly
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: the kind of scale that's used in the more to
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: weigh individual organs. And there are certain parameters that we
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: look for for organ weights, and anytime we have an
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: organ that is over the expected weight for that particular age,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: that'll make a scratch our head a little bit and say, well,
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: what's causing this heaviness or if it's lighter for instance,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: which most of the time you find things that are heavier,
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: and in the cases of opiates like this opiate OD,
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: you would expect to find the lungs being heavier, congested
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: with fluid and blood and that sort of thing, and
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: sometimes that's indicative of ad. One fascinating thing that you
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: see at crime scenes relative to individuals that have overdosed
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: on some type of depressant like an opiate, is you'll
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: have a presentation of what's referred to as a frothy
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: edemitius cone is what it's called. And you'll see this
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: kind of white foam looks like the head of a beard.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: And we've actually talked about this before on body back
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: that's issues from the nose and from the mouth, and
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: it'll be tainted in a pink, kind of a pink color,
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: and again that's as a result of this kind of
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: hyper congestion that's going on where the people are really
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: struggling to breeze. And because with this drug in particular,
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: you begin to think about, you know, what does it
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: do systemically, How does it affect a brain, How does
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: it affect your motor functions? These sorts of things. You'll
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: see these individuals that cannot move around because folks might
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: not realize. Fentnyl was actually originally developed as a partner
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: for surgical anesthesia with other drugs, So it is meant
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: to put an individual down into this kind of deep repose,
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: if you will, to get them manageable for surgery. It's
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: also used for pain relief for years and years. Kind
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: of interesting. They developed fentnyl and placed it in a patch.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: People have seen nicotine patches for instance, that people wear,
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: you know, to quit smoking. Well, people have had fentnyl
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: patches as well. And the patch itself is essentially populated
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: with a dosage of fentyl, and then it's what's called transdermal.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: You put the patch over a prescribed area and that
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: medication kind of seeps in through the skin and goes
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: into the system and gives pain relief. People that have
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: things like crowding, back pain and hip pain and all
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: those sorts of things that people develop over time as
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: a result of age or injury can get relief with it.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: So it's a very very powerful drug. And then when
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: it's out on the street and it's being manufactured, say
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: for instance, in a clandestine lab, because fentyl is one
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: of those things that is just the absolute scourge of
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: our society right now. One of the many drugs it's
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: made and not very well controlled environments. It's made in
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: other countries, for instance, and then people smuggle it in
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: and you don't really know what's in it. It can
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: make for a very very lethal cocktail. What you're telling me, Joe,
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of experience in what you're
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: talking about. So if I understand you, what you're telling
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: me is one is an upper and one's a downer. Yeah,
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: And i'd also like to say, as your friend, I'm
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: glad you don't have a lot of experience into Jackie.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: So but yeah, yeah, you're right. One is an upper
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: and one is a downer. And when you begin to
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: think about the fentanyl in particular, it essentially sends the
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: victim into respiratory failure. We hear a lot about cardiac failure,
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: but the lungs become so heavy as a result of
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: this congestion that's going on. Oh so it's it's not
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: that they absorb anything, it's that they can't function, so
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: they're congested with fluids. Right Yet, I had an old
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: doctor one time actually referred to it. It's like the
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: patients It's the equivalent of somebody trying to run in
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: mud and it's it becomes so labored and they're struggling
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: so hard, and they don't have an awareness, you know,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: to kind of you can't you can't fight fight your
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: way out of it at a chemical level, because it's
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: hammering the body so hard it would be very difficult
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: to kind of pull back from it. That's why nowadays,
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: you know, they they carry nark. You know, we have
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: many number of agencies out there that apply a narkin.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: They have the ability and it kind of counteracts this
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: kind of depressant event that occurs with a subject that
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: has been found down. There's so many people that just
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: kind of fall over as a result of being an
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: exposed nyl. There. They're even cases out there and this
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: dangerous and how insidious this drug is. Our law enforcement
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: officers can go inside of the cabin of a car
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: many times, okay, then think about how horrific this is,
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: and they'll open up a bag that might contain this
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: finnyl that has been made in some clandestine lab and
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: suddenly this kind of cloud comes out and this is
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: almost in a histamine like form. It kind of spreads
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: into the air and the copstant note it's there. You know,
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: they're just kind of searching the area. It's not like
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: they have a gas mask on or a ventilator on
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: or something, you know, like you see with firefighters. So
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: they inhalate this stuff and my gosh, you inhalate this
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: stuff in a powdered form and it gets right into
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: the mucous membranes and it's absorbed and this is going
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: into the lungs. So how much more so, for instance,
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: if an individual has it mixed, and you'll find people
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: that are mixing it in cocaine, which is kind of interesting.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: You know, you think about cocaine, which is in fact
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: a stimulant, being mixed with fentnel, which is at present
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: kind of takes us back to the days of you know,
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: you think about how Belushi died. He died of what
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: was called a speedball, which was a combination of cocaine
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: and heroin and that was directly injected and it just
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: really wrecks the system. But just ventell by itself can
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: even send somebody that's in a passive status that are
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: seen like a police officer that's just kind of looking
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: around that that kind of histamine that they can inhalate
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: it can kill you. You've mentioned a couple of times now, Joe,
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: that fentyl is man made. So is this what we're
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: hearing all the time about in the same vein that
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: methamphetamine is Maine. Where people are pulling things out of
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: cold myths. Yeah, well, you know, fentnyl itself is you know,
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: it's based on the molecule that's you know, that's originally
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: an opiate, you know, which is a naturally occurring depressant.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: We've had, for instance, we've had like morphine, you know,
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: for a long long time, and morphine is a natural
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: derivative that you know, you go all the way back
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: to the Civil War and you begin to think about
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: people were trying to use painkillers, if you will, where
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: you know, they were able to essentially draw out that
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: element of the poppy plant for instance, which is you
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: know where heroin derives from, and applied this agent in
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: order to reduce pain. And it has been effective. I mean,
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: it's it's given a lot of relief. Famously, you know,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: you can think about our troops out in the field,
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: you know, in any number of movies we've seen from
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: World War Two, where the troops used to carry serets.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: They call them serets, the little ampules with the built
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: in needle of morphine. These guys would be in terrible
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: pain after sustaining some horrific wound. Their fellow soldiers would
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: take the serette and jam it into their leg and
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: apply the morphine, and it gives instant relief to a
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: certain degree. It stems the pain because it acts on
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: the pain centers and it mutes that pain. I just said,
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: the person is not suffering, but you know he's Here's
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: the key when you're talking about a trug like this
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: and in its synthetic form, which now you take that
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: original naturally occurring molecule and you synthesize it and you
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: make it a man made substance where the molecule is
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: very similar to that that is occurring in nature, and
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: you adjust it. You know, it's said, for instance, like
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: fentnyl is, just hold onto your hat for this is
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: it's like a hundred times more powerful than heroin. Just
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: let that sink in just for a second. One hundred
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: times more powerful. That means it requires less of the
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: substance to get the same high that an individual might
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: get from heroin. But if you adjust that dosage just
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: slightly and you apply just a bit more, the person
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: will essentially flattening. Don you know the thing about medical
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: with that investigation that I've always tried to drum into
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: any investigator that I train or those just to give
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: props with them those that train me, is it is
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: always essential as an investigator you go to the scene,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: you take a look at the body in its context
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: in which it is found. And in this case with
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Francis Kelly, it led to some serious, serious questions that
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: the police had. So here's my question. The autopsy found
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Kelly had fentnyl in his system, and yet there was
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: cocaine underneath him. So how did he get the fentnyl?
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: We know that he ingested it. Now is that a
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: normal way of getting fentnyl? Is that going to have
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: a different reaction in the body. We know that he
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: was ultimately given fentnyl three times. It was in his
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: oatmeal and put in his me so soup, and I'm
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: honestly I'm not sure about what food it him. The
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: third one was in, But would he have taken it?
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Would he have known that he was eating this? And
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: does ingesting it offer you a different kind of effect.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: Those are valid questions in sense that. And I'll go
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: ahead and tell you what mister Kelly had remarked. At
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: one point in time, he had made a remark that
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: he had taken a bite of food and it tasted funny.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, how many of us in the audience have
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: ever eaten something somewhere and it had an unnatural taste
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: to it? If it's prepared at a restaurant or something
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: like that, it almost has a chemical taste to it.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: A great example for me, I don't like to use
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: a dishwasher him, so I'll just use like, you know,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: dish liquid and scrub things out. And do you ever
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: have the experience where you didn't quite get all of
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: the dish liquid out of some type of vessel that
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: you're cleaning, and then later you go back and you say, wow,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: this tastes like dish detergent. Well, think about that. It's
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: it's got something that is unnatural to taste. Yeah, he
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: was aware of it. I think he was aware of
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: one of these times that someone had attempted to actually
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: give him some type of agent, which you know, of course,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: turns out to be fentyl in his system, and yeah,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: there's an awareness, and a lot of it has to
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: do with how much is applied. One of the great
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: questions you hear about, if fentyl is applied, or any
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: kind of drug is applied, how's it going to get
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: systemically into the system the quickest? And boy, I mean
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: I've got some incredible stories from over the years where
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: people have placed any number of different types of agents
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: in their body in different locations certainly, and all have
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: a variety of different effects. And how long it takes
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: for them to kind of be absorbed into this system
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: and will they totally be absorbed. You think about an individual,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: for instance, that has something like cocaine or fentnyl or know,
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: people have smarted heroine. That's something that has been done well,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: it goes into the mucus membrane. Well, when you absorb this,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: where's it going well into the mucous membrane, it's also
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: going directly into the lungs, and so the uptake of
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: this is going to be really quick. Another quick way
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: is through IV injection, which I'm not talking about like
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: an ivy bag hanging in a hospital. I'm talking about
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: interveniously where an individual. You've seen movies where people will
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: will tie off essentially and they'll render down whatever it
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: is that they're injecting into their body with a spoon,
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: heating it, rendering it down, and then they draw it
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: up and inject it. They tie off with a tourniquet,
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: the vessel pops up and they go directly into the vein. Well,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: that's very quick as well. There's something else that's kind
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: of interesting. People also do something called skin popping, which
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: is very it's really quite disgusting actually, but they will
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: take an injectable that they've rendered down and they'll go
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: directly in their skin, not searching for a vessel. They'll
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: they'll go into what's referred to as into the sub
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: q fat, which means that layer fat directly below the skin.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: And it's called skin popping. And you have people that
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: skin pop and those drugs are injected and there they
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: absorb a little bit slower. But what occurs is these
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: drugs that are clandestinely made. They're cut with things like
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: heroin traditionally has been cut with things like quinine, talcum powder.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: It's been cut with baby formula, all kinds of things
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: over the years, so that the dealers can extend their
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: supply of the drugs, so they'll cut it so it's
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: like a sixty forty cut. It won't be in a
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: pure state. And what happens is with the skin popping
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: is that these areas will actually ulterate because when they
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: skin pop, for instance, if an individual is injecting something
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: like quinine or talcum powder, it's not metabolized. It just
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: kind of sits there, eat the skin. It becomes irritated,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: and then you get an ulcerated area. And you'll find
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: many people that skin pop will have these huge ulcerated
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: lesions all over their bodies. And that's types of things
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: that you've seen. And then you have people that have
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: particularly in poisonings because that's that's the easiest way to
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: get it into a non suspecting person's system. You know,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: you approach somebody with a needle and you inject them
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: or attempt to inject them, they're going to fight you
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: off most of the time if they haven't awareness that
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: this is happening. So many people will clandestinely put items
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: into into food and stir around or mix it up
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: and then try to get the person to ingest it
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: and then of course, you know, you have stories of
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: people that mule drugs in from you know, from various countries,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: and they of course insert a variety of different types
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: of drugs into their backside for instance. And you know,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: I had I know one kid that came up from
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: South America at one point time, from Bolivia specifically, and
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: he had twenty condoms that were clipped with surgical staples,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: and he had pure cocaine in each one of these condoms.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: It's about twenty I'm sorry, it was about ten grams each.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: And one of the condoms erupted and he got a
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: ten gram dosage of cocaine into his large intestine and
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: it like immediately he just fell over dead. It was
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: absorbed that quickly into the intestinal lining. I'm giving a
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: long answer here, but it's you never know how it's
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: going to be absorbed. And also, you know, if you're
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: talking about, you know, having it passed through the digestive
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: track in the form of food, If it's mixed in,
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: the absorption is going to take a bit longer. It
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: might even require higher dosage than it would, say, for instance,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: if it was being injected directly into a vein. So
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: what we're seeing in this case, when Kelly was found,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: he was still alive. So what you're telling me is
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: due to the method that he was given the drug,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: it's not enough to kill them. Yeah, or it could be,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: you know, the progression of the metabolism itself, the progression
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: of the metabolism. You're gonna have to school me, but yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, okay, let me let me back off a
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: little bit, because that's not that's not entirely accurate, but
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: just okay, let's just put in common terms relative to
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: people ingesting food, certain types of food make you feel different,
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: you know, and um, you know, depending upon whatever it is. Say,
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: for instance, people that don't have necessarily a real tolerance
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: for sugar. For instance, you might eat a candy bar
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: and then it might taste really good initially okay, and
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: then maybe ten fifteen minutes later, your body starts to
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: uptake everything that's in the candy bar and your body's
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: not processing it okay, and you start to feel really bad. Okay.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: Maybe people that are pre diabetic or diabetic and they
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: eat this and it makes them feel really really bad, Well,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: that's part of the metabolic uptake of that particular substance
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: as somebody has applied some type of agent like funnel
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: into a food source and the individual ing the food source, well,
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: it passes through the mouth, down the esophagus and drops
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: into the stomach. Well, the stomach sits there and kind
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: of churns this food and it's absorbed through the stomach wall.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Just because it is being absorbed and nutrients are being
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: taken out of it, doesn't mean you're getting everything out
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: of it. Say, for instance, if you took the pure
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: substance and injected it directly into a vein, all right,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: So you would either require more in order to facilitate this,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: or it would be a matter of the type of
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: agent that you're mixing it with, whether it's soup, for instance,
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: versus a oatmeal or grits or something like that that
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: might be a bit more dense. It might kind of
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: shield the individual from ingestion of it totally and uptaking it.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: And so the longer your body goes along it has
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: a higher probability of been jesting it, and maybe you
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: can make it through safely. But if this is being
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: done to you over and over and over again, sooner
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: or later you're going to die. There's nothing as an
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: investigator that will make you stop cold in your tracks
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: than an unexpected result at autopsy. It's something that makes
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: you question your abilities. It's something that makes you question
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: the care that you took with the case. Because this
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: is this is key. Once the scene has been left,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: once the body has been removed from the scene, you
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: can never reset, you can never do it. You get
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: one shot at doing it right. And in this case, Jackie,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: when they got into this autopsy, they found something completely
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: unexpected that is true, and that was the fact that
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: Kelly was strangled and did not od as they initially suspected.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Kelly's body was found by his former girlfriend Heidie Marie
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: Littlefield and her adult daughter Logan Marie Runyan and Runyan's
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: boyfriend Robert Walker. Now, the two women had secretly got
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: into Kelly's house and poisoned his oatmeal and some soup
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: as I told you, with fentyl. But when they went
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: back to the home, Kelly wasn't dead. He was still
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: grasping for breath. He was unresponsive but trying to breathe,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: and at that point they decided to finish him off
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: and they used a tie, specifically his favorite tie to
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: strangle him. Why was that not originally obvious? Because, as
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: you've talked before, usually ligature stranglings leave a mark. So
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: why didn't they look at him, the investigators when his
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: body was reported, Why didn't they look at him and go,
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: oh wait, there's marks there. That's key. I want everyone
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: in the sound of my voice to envision a male
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: necktie right now. Just envisioned kind of a standard necktie.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: Not talking about like a you know what, tiny little
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: string tie or something. I'm talking about a regular necktie.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: They're why they're two to three inches maybe four inches,
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: dependent upon the particular cycle that you point through, immense fashion,
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: and generally they're smooth. Many of them are made out
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: of either silk, the really expensive ones, or maybe some
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: kind of synthetic version of a silk or the it's
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: the appearance of a silky fabric. And you know, with
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: that type of construction of this tie, it's not like
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: a rope, and it's not like an electrical chord. Do
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: you think about a rope or an electrical chord? How
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: kind of narrow they are they create when they're used
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: as a ligature, they create a very narrow furrow. It's
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: called a furrow, just like a furrow in a field
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: that's being plowed, and they're deep. They're very deep with
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: rope in particular, because folks will think about rope, it's
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: kind of woven many times. Most of the time it's woven,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: and it's made out of a lot of different materials,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: but it's woven. It has a very specific pattern, you know,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: you think about like a herring bone pattern, or if
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: you have a twist like a baling rope. It's very
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: rough to the touch and when you apply it, the
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: more tension that you put on this thing, the deeper
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: the furrow, and it's going to leave behind an area
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: of abrasion or we call it an abraided area where
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: the skin is kind of burned beneath it. Depend upon
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: how long it's been, it will have almost a dry,
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: kind of a dried out appearance if you will. And
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: sometimes if you're very very careful and you examine it
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: very closely, particularly with like a magnifying glass or a
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: loop like you use to examine photos with, you'll see
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: the pattern actually manifesting itself of the surface in the entry.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: And that's really good for us because in forensics, because
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: if we find a rope, for instance, or an electrical cord.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: Sometimes we can match those things up at least get
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: in the ballpark with it, but with a tie. Because
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: it's so broad you're in, it's so soft, you're not
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: going to leave that kind of a braided area on
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: the outside. And you know, as was mentioned Francis Kelly,
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: he's got ventnyl in a system. Remember what we had
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: discussed earlier. Ventyl is a system depressant. It reduces our
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: ability to fight back in any way. You think about
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: the genesis of fentyl. Fentyl is a precursor for anesthesia
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: or what happens when you go under. You know, anybody
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: in the audience that's ever ever had surgery, you know
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: they tell you to count backwards and you never get
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: past about ninety five. It's meant to relax you. It
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: sedate you. It puts you in a position where you know,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: you can imagine, I don't care how big you are,
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: if you've got fentyl on board, you're not going to
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: be able to fight back very well. You might initially,
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: but as it begins to take hold in your system,
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: you're going to become very sleepy and passive. And so
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: you take you and you combine that with a smooth
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: surface of a literature, like a tie that doesn't it's
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: not going to leave this big, bold pattern with a
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: deep furrow. You're not necessarily going to see it at
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: the scene unless that tie has been left in place
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: and tied in the rear very tightly, which I've had
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: a number of cases like that in the past. But
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: if the tie is removed, and you might see a
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: little bit of discoloration, it might be kind of red,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: but it's not gonna like just really jump out at you.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: And another thing you have to think about is and
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: I don't I don't know that folks really consider this,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: but when you're out on the scene, when you conduct
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: the examination of a body, you're not in the best circumstances.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: You're certainly not in the best circumstances when it comes
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: to lighting, even if you're you are in somebody's apartment. Okay,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, how many of us have ever walked into
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: a room and it's very dimly lit, depended upon what
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: that person likes in their home. But you take a
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: body and you go to the morgue with it, Well,
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: the lighting in most marks now is surgical grade, and
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: trust me, there are very few shadows in this environment.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: You have lights coming at you from all over the place,
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: and it's to blow out any kind of shadows so
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: you can appreciate and see everything. It's very brightly lead
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: in there. When you get a body back to the morgue,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: you're gonna be able to pick up on little nuances
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: in the morgue. In that environment, you're not going to
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: be able to pick up on at the scene. You're
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: also kneeling over bodies. It might be hot. You're not
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: paying as close attention at the scene as you will,
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: But when you're in the morgue and you have that
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: body laid on that table in front of you, you
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: are fully vested at that moment. We later find out
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: that Kelly's death was a result of a custody dispute
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: between Littlefield and Kelly. Littlefield claimed Kelly was abusive. Kelly
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: claimed that Littlefield would not allow him to see the
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: daughter alone and would try to stay in his home
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: during their visit time. He called it parenting time. Who
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: would want to stay in his house during the parenting time?
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: So the other thing that we find out, which I
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: find very interesting and kind of explains things about the cocaine,
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: knowing that he died from fentnyl and that it was
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: cocaine that was found. We're looking at a good case
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: of staging here, aren't we. Joe. Oh my gosh, you
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: hit it right on the head. You're absolutely right, Jackie.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: You have a group of people, a confederacy if you will,
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: of three that are purposed, aren't they. They're going out,
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: they've entered into an agreement together in order to bring
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: about this guy's death, and they've gone so far as
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: to not just, you know, at the end, perpetrate a
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: homicide here, but to set it up so that it
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: appears as though that this man, this father odeed himself.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: And not only are there drugs involved, but we've got
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: this mysterious bag of cocaine that's found at the scene,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: So that means that somebody was purposed to go out
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: and acquire cocaine. The investigators revealed, you know, in this
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: particular case, that these three went out and look that
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: the daughter running when she's on the stand, she never,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: and I mean never denies the fact that she's got
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: a meth problem, and she's you know, little Phil's attorney
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: you know, ask her directly, do you have a problem
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: with drug addiction? And she never denied it at all,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: never ever, And so she's connected in this world. So
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: you know, what are you gonna do. Well, you go
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: out and you purchase a bag of cocaine at one time,
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: purchase perhaps, and you set this man up because you've
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: been going into his house clandestinely, by the way, and
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: poisoning his food. So you figure you're going to finish
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: him off. And oh, just just to really drive home
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: the point, we're going to have a bag of cocaine
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: We're going to go out and purchase and stick it
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: under his body so that when the authorities show up,
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe the corner. You walk into the room
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: and you start to do the examination of the body,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: and oh, wow, what do we find here? Well, you
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: find this bag of white pa or you don't know
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: what it is, because contrary to what you folks think,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: you know, we can't just look at a bag of
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: white powder and say that is in fact cocaine or
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: whatever type of agent. That we have to test it
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: to confirm it. So you're telling me, you stick your
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: little finger in it and taste it like everybody else,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: does on TV. No, that does not happen. My god,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: if anybody ever, please nobody do that. That is the
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: most ridiculous thing. I hate that Hollywood actually demonstrates that
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: because some people think that they can do that, and
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: it is not something that anyone should ever try to
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: do at all. That has to be tested and you
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: need to handle it with gloves. Fentnyl in particular is
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: nasty in a sense. You know, they remember they put
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: it in patches and we're not talking about fentyl relative
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: to this bag, but there's fentyl involved in this case.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: It's transdermal, which means you can absorb it through your skin.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Method is the same way as well. It is transdermal,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: very dangerous stuff, and so you can actually get a
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: dosage of this stuff just by handling it with your
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: bare hands. And the fact that they went out and
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: purchased these drugs to plant them at the scene relative
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: to this man and to try to paint him in
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: this light that he oedeed. What's fascinating I think to
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: me is that you know, I talked at length about
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: the tie, that a tie was used, and it's it
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: kind of you know, drills down into this relationship that
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Littlefield had with Francis Kelly. I think the fact that
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: it wasn't just a tie, it was his favorite tie.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: And you think about that just for a second. Is
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: this a statement that's being made by the perpetrator? You know?
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: I don't I don't know how many ties Francis Kelly owned.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe he only had one. Maybe it
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: was a tie that at some point in time someone
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: who dearly loved him went out and purchased and gave
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: to him, but it was identified as his favorite tie,
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: and that it was actually utilized as a means to
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: bring about his death. And I think that when you
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: look at this in the final analysis and you think
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: about that, was it used as a statement that, you know,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go to whatever means necessary to keep
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: you separated from this child that you have fathered with me.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: And just to kind of put an exclamation point on it,
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: I'm going to grab your favorite tie. I'm going to
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: wrap it around your neck, and I'm going to choke
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: you until you're deceased, Because not only to have the
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: tie around your neck, I've also got fighting on in
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: your system now, so you're going to be manageable, and
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: there's some indication he may have attempted to fight back
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: because he's got some bruises that were found. It looks
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: as though he's sustained some type of blunt force trauma
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: and maybe initially he did attempt to fight back. But
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: when you're fighting, just think about this. Not only you
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: fighting against this chemical that's in your system that is,
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: by the way, compromising your ability to breathe. Now you've
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: got something wrapped around your neck that's an external factor
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: that is preventing you from uptaking oxygen. He's in a
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: desperate fight for his life at that moment time. A Running,
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: in her statement from the stand actually stated that when
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: they arrived they made entry into Francis Kelly's home, they
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: found him on the floor and he was experiencing labored breathing.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: And you know, it makes you think, did they use
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: that tie on him on the floor in order to
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: asphyxiate him in that position, or did they do it
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: on the sofa which they eventually moved his body to.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: That goes to this idea of staging, when you take
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: a body and you place it into a position that
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: is other than as it was initially found. And you
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: plant cocaine beneath the body, that's that A courses is
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: a sign that there was thought that went into this,
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: that they wanted to make this appear as something other
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: than it was. He had enough drugs on board so
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: that when they did enter the apartment that it had
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: literally knocked him down to his knees and he was
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: laboring to breathe at that time, and I guess it's
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: at that time that they decided to just finish him off. Well.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: The verdict is in on this case. Joe and the
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: daughter Logan Runyan, was charged with murder and conspiracy to
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: commit murder, and her boyfriend Walker was charged with two
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: counts of conspiracy to commit murder. Now Walker pleaded guilty
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: and was sentenced to ten years in prison. Logan Runyan
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: was sentenced to twenty six years in prison and another
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: six suspended, and forty two year old Heidi Littlefield was
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: sentenced to one hundred and fifteen years in the state prison,
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: which included sixty years for murder, twenty years for attempted poisonings,
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: and thirty five years for conspiracy to commit murder resulting
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: in a death. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks.