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Mothering a Transgender Child | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 6 · Motherhood Uncut

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Motherhood Uncut.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: We are so glad you're here.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: In this podcast, Deb Ruben and I talk about all the things motherhood related, the things that people don't usually want to bring to the table.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: The messy, the hilarious, the ugly, the challenging, the amazing, the beautiful, the really effed up, all that stuff.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: We've got it here for you.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: We bring to you our own personal experience as moms, as well as some research and data that might help you along the way.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for being here.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Bring your friends.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: We've got you.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Come mother with us.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: Hey all, Deb here.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: This week, Kate and I had an opportunity to interview Jen Egbert.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: Jen has been living in Boulder for a very long time.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: She's a badass realtor.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_03: She's kind of crushing it in so many parts of her life.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: And we brought her on to learn about her mothering journey as she mothers a transgender child.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: She shared with us the trials and tribulations of this process and just gave us so much important information about what it's like to be in the trans world.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: The biggest takeaway though was how she really was attuned to her kiddo.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: She listened, she learned, she paid attention, she stepped up, and it was just really amazing to learn the ins and outs of her process.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: I hope you enjoy the show, and there's some good show notes afterwards with information of how to support your trans child if that's something you're going through.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: And just to be more knowledgeable in the world.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for listening and have a wonderful day.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Hey you all, it's Kate.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: As you know, I am passionate about long-term sustainable maternal mental well-being because as moms, when we feel good, when we know how to stand steady in the midst of all the chaos that shows up for us, we show up in a different way for our kids.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm releasing a couple of one-on-one coaching spots for those of you who are ready to dive deep.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to partner with you and help you access that.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: So go ahead and head over to my website, katecripkee.com, to learn more about my one-on-one coaching opportunities.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: I am so excited to announce that I am hosting a two-hour workshop just for dads that are parenting adolescent girls and those who identify as girls.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: Please join me in person at Boulder Country Day School or virtually on February 8th from 6 to 8 p.m.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: I want to help you increase your knowledge about what's happening for them and give you some awesome strategies to parent with confidence.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: All the info is on my website at motherdaughterjourney.co or debruben.com.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_03: I can't wait to see you.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Deb.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Kate.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Happy Podcast Day.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: Happy Podcast Day.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: We have such an important conversation today and such an amazing guest.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually, let's let Jen introduce herself in entirely.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I will just say, I will start by saying that Jen Eggbert has been a Boulder resident for 31 years.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, she's like the mayor of Boulder.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: She really is the mayor.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: She's the mayor of Boulder.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: And Jen is a powerhouse real estate agent here who many of us have known for a very long time.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: She's also the mom of a transgendered kiddo.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: And in this podcast, we are so committed to bringing all the different mothering journeys to the table.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And while of course, no one is an expert in anything.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: We really feel like, Jen, like you have a lot to share about your journey and what it's been like for you.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um anything you want to add to this little Jen Egbert intro?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just so excited to have you in this space.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you for being here.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Hold on to that mic, Jen.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna say thanks for inviting me.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna maybe we could just launch off by you.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: You could start wherever you want, but just sort of telling us who you are and how you would how you would st start us off on your mothering of James and your mothering journey.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll just we're gonna riff and we have some really important questions to ask you.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, we've had some back and forth before pressing record about this, but let us know who you are and tell us a little bit about your family system.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh huh.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: You mean between Skye and me?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: You and Sky and James.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, she's 12.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, pretty early on she started presenting.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: She was born uh or the hospital, how do you say this?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: She was assigned male at birth.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: And um we it's so funny.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of like I think your kids are about the same age, right?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: She she's a little younger than my kids, but they played together.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they were all little.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: We had you over for a play date.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: I remember that.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: But our kids are two days apart, isn't it?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, we had the same midwife and we were pregnant together, and we had newborns together.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was, I don't know if you guys remember this, but that was like very much the advent of the Pinterest mom.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Do you remember that?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like everything was curated and all that kind of stuff.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so I that is one thing that I do remember was it was 2010, and we started um recording uh journeys like with our children foot photographically.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I had lots of pictures and all this kind of stuff.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And Jay, when she started, when she started talking, which wasn't until she was two, because she was signing up until then, she just started to let us know that she was a girl.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know anything didn't know anything about early childhood development, but my mom did.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: She was an educator, and so I was she was like, Oh, that's just dress up is a huge part of early childhood development.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's awesome.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and we were like, cool, go for it.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that was kind of our our like foray into you know playing around with gender roles.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and then I was having drinks one night with a woman that I kind of know, and she's a therapist, and she was like, How long has this been going on?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I don't know, like a year or so.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like by then she had been like three or four or three-ish.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh she was like, you know, insistent, consistent, persistent is a thing, Jen.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And oh, say that again.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Insistent, consistent, and persistent is something that parents of trans children can often hark like right back to and say, like, oh yeah, this this was a thing from the get-go.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to pause you for just a minute because I heard you say from an early age, as soon as she could begin to talk, she started letting you know, communicating with you that she was a girl.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you talked about dr I heard you say that your mom mentioned dress up, right?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: What other what other things were you noticing?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Was it just the dress-up?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: When you talk about those three, insistent, persistent, and consistent.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: What were the other early ways that James was communicating with you?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, she would go into my closet and get my shoes and then get a tank top, ask me to make her a dress, ask me to make her look like a bohemian bride, you know.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: She would ask for scarves to be put on her head so she had hair, because her hair didn't grow in until she was about four.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: And um those were really the things, you know, and you're a lot of a lot of Katy Perry.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of Katy Perry.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I'm like it's interesting because I'm hearing you describe a lot of what my girls were doing when they were young.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: We interviewed, um, our last interview was with these two fabulous moms of boys, and one of the things that we were addressing was how we can socially like unintentionally raise boys to quote unquote just be boys or raise girls to show up in a certain way.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: But part of what I hear you saying, Jen, is that a lot of what was coming from James was sort of innate.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't about you guiding anything.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I mean, I feel like with her, it was so it's so interesting.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, she it took us a day to wean her, you know.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: It took us a day.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, here our potty training experience was Mom, I don't want to wear a dip anymore.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Okay, well then that means you have to use the toilet.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: And she's like, fine.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that was it.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: That was how we potty trained.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so we did everything kind of at her pace.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like the day that she started crawling, she never once like practiced crawling.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know how kids like will do the rocking, and she didn't do that.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was getting a pedicure and she was laying on the floor and she did it, and then she got up, and then that was it, and then she crawled.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, she just is an observant person, and so and I think she's a bit of a perfectionist, so she was just kind of doing these things like at her leisure, right?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like I definitely gave her space to, you know, I wasn't like it's potty training weekend, like that.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Just I I don't think I have the bandwidth for that, and then also it just wasn't her personality, and I think both Skye and I were very like attuned to that.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um that attunement is profound.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_03: I just have to say, it is it is what we are looking for all the time, whether it's through parent-child relationship, couple relationship, like letting letting someone be seen for exactly who they are and meeting them where they're at.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: And it sounds like you did that so intuitively.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: It felt like it.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and you're talking about you're talking about that, but with curiosity.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Letting them be seen but with curiosity and wonder versus projection and direction, which I guess that's an oxymoron, of course, in order, right?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it, but that's sort of what I'm hearing from you, Jen, is like and I knew you back then.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: It was sort of a state of huh, watching and wondering and waiting versus reacting.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: I want to let our listeners know that we have two microphones between the three of us.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: So we are we are passing them back and forth in case you we're just gonna make this all work today.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_03: We're just messy and human.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: Go on, sorry.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, so I think that was the biggest thing.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think our family system at that point, you know, Skye started acupuncture school a week after I had her.
• 10:46
  unknown: Excuse me.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so he was busy, and then I was running a business from the sofa, you know, with a because I had an emergency C-section.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had three weeks of bed rest after that with an infant, and you know, it was the middle of the recession, like or just the tail end of the recession.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's so interesting to think about um our journey into becoming mothers, into getting to know our children and all of the muck that happens, regardless of what kind of birth you have.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: It like it's so complicated, and just really I'm hearing you describe this way in which you know, James from the get-go, she knew what she wanted.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: She knew what she needed, and she knew the timing that she was going to do those things, even sleeping through the night, right?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like she was on it.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and just really thinking back about sort of your journey of becoming her mom.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us if you're open to it.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: When you when you sat with that therapist friend who who said consistency, persistency, what was that third one?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Consistent, insistent, persistent.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Consistent, insistent, persistent.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh, that's so useful actually.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: And and what was that like for you to sort of begin to open up to the possibility that James, who was born and on her birth certificate said gender boy, was beginning to show you that she was gender girl.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: What was that?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to us a little bit about what it was like for you to begin to open up to that.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: So there's there's a second part of this story because that conversation wasn't, I guess it was significant enough to mark it.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I'm saying?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was like, huh, interesting.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: But she was such a toddler at that point.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so call that, like, call that she was probably like between two and a half and three at that point, right?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: But sh there were things like she would wear sparkly shoes to school and stuff.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: But so really my reaction to that was like, huh, okay, you know, and I that's when I talked to my mom about it.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the thing that really was the landmark for me, because it kept going on, right?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, she would do shit, you guys like she would run around naked for a long time.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: I I've not seen her naked since she's been seven, because that was the first bullying incident.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: So now she's very like she wears a sh uh swimsuit when she showers, things like that.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like she is private.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but she would run around naked and she would come in and she'd go like, Mom, I'm just a girl with a penis.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Okay, cool.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like things like that.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like three years old, and you're like, I got it, you know, like, and I think I was just very much like, okay, this is the journey that we're on.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't like overthinking it or anything like that.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I wasn't like, oh my God.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: But then you start doing the research.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so somebody who gave me this book.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know who gave me the book, but they gave me this book called Becoming Nicole, and that's the one that I recommended.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: I think it was me.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: Did you give it to me?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah, because it was fantastic.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was you.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: It was.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: That is.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you were like, Jen, you need to okay.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: So Dad gave me this great book called Becoming Nicole.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it is this journey of this girl who must be now 25 years old, 26, 27 years old, and from birth to uh her like 18, so birth through confirmation surgery.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: And she had a conservative father who was a marine, and it was great because the way that it's written, and I recommend it for anybody just who's curious, first of all, but also who is starting this journey, is that the the way it's written, it's written by the doctor, Nicole's doctor.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're getting the medical layer along with the story that's going on, and it's really, it was just really an easy read.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was something that I gave to like family members who had all these questions because I'm not a doctor, I can't answer those questions.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that was a big one.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then Marlo Mack is a woman who's got a transgender child and who's the same age as James.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And she would turn on her iPhone and just record conversations.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually need to go listen to it again because I was sitting there in tears because it was so in alignment with what we were going through as well, you know, where like I really felt heard and seen and not alone and like, oh my gosh.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that the the after listen, I listened to that on a Tuesday mid-morning while she was at, you know, rock climbing camp, and she had just done this haircut to herself and all this kind of stuff, and um realized she was having some identity crises.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so when she got home that night, she was four and a half years old, and I said to her, we said to her, hey, do you want us to be saying that you're a girl to other people as well?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like she and her, and she was like, Yes.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, you know, and it was we went into the c camp the next day, we said, because it's a longer story, but we told them that um her backpack, you know, she's gonna put it in the girls' bathroom with all the other girls, and everybody there was like, Hi five, it's about time, and blah, blah, blah.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, Oh, really?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna parent for me.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, like you're you're really wanting to, we were really wanting to make sure that this was a space that she felt completely, completely okay with, you know.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: Well I don't know if I were touched by your story.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just like, I'm like holding back tears right now.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, seriously, like uh both Kate and I were watching you from a distance.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, we had no idea what was going on.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: All I know on the inside, all I know is that you always kind of had this um comfort around it.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I think what I'm hearing right now is that that was coming from a place of like surrender is too strong of a word, because what I actually hear is it was just you were pretty neutral around it all.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, what I hear is that you had her back from the get-go, which of course is what Deb and I are talking about on this podcast in every episode is what is what is requ what how what do we need to do to take care of ourselves so that we can have our kids back?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't mean say yes to everything, but that means really thinking about how do I advocate for what's in my child's best interest in the long run, not just in the moment, but in the long run, right?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we talk about being their ally all the time, and especially in the teenage years, that their kids need an ally, they need it from an adult whom they trust because it's really hard to find a peer ally because so often peers are complex and and and inconsistent and their brains are under construction too, so it's just not really you know some reliable.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess I actually kind of want to segue a little bit into your experience with allyship because I think it's a really important word, and I want if you wouldn't mind helping me understand what that's been like I have uh an in-addition question to that, which you can either answer all in one or come back to.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you just mentioned you mentioned that when you listened to that recording, you were in tears because you felt so seen and heard, right?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess at some point in this conversation today, I would really love if you're open to it to hear more about what was it actually like for you behind the scenes.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because Deb just mentioned we see you as like, we've seen you as like, oh, she has got this, right?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: She's got I love that you just laughed.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: She has got James's back, she is steady, she's neutral, and of course there were must have been all kinds of shit happening behind the scenes.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, and maybe this is a is a question because I think Al we're asking you a this is a hard question, right?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: So well, I'll tell you, I'll tell you how I learned about allyship because it was a fucking eye-opener for me.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my friend Brad Inman is married to a transgender woman, Yaz, and Brad runs this huge, used to, he sold it, huge real estate conference that I've spoken at a few times, and it's like 5,000 people go.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so somebody in my peer group there got to him and told him our daughter was trans, and she was probably like five at the time.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: And Yaz is like amazing.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: So they've become really dear friends, and they are fabulous.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like the pictures of them online are like she was a model, you know.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so, anyway, so somehow Brad found me in this, it was in New York in she was five, so seven years ago, and um said, Yaz really wants to meet you, and I'm like, awesome.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so we sat down and she is like fabulous, like head to toe Chanel, like six foot eight, because she didn't transition until she was 16, and you know, you bro.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and she's like from Morocco, and just everything about her is amazing.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so she was in fashion and she's sh I didn't ask a single question.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: She sat there and just was with me.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the questions she asked me were, Do you have any transgender friends?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I don't.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: And she goes, now you do.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so then I was like, oh, and so, and she really, you know, we see each other, we try and see each other once a year.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and she is very out and you know, or talks about it, but it's not even a thing, you know, it's not even like for her, it's she's been doing this for so long, she's 60 something.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, you know, um, I'm gonna show you pictures of my ex-husbands.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: There are all these like fucking hot fashion photographers and all this stuff, and Brad's like super, you know, because there's these things that you go through as a parent.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is the one thing I've learned.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's every parent.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Every parent has a thing.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just me, it's not just you, it's not just you, it's not just, you know, somebody with somebody, you know, who's got a kid who's got a disease.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like everybody has a thing, and I would never take away from anybody else's experience knowing what I know now, right?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was so we had this wonderful conversation, and um, you know, and then I really set out to like be get into more groups of other parents, and and like I hooked up with Marty Moore here at Outboulder, and that's grown into this whole other like amazing relationship.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh But after the women's march, I don't know, you guys probably wouldn't have like because it wasn't in your like vernacular, but trans women and women of color were really upset, right?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I and Yaz introduced me to her friend Mika, who is a climate scientist and teaches at Loyola.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: And Mika didn't come out until she was in transition, until she was 28.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: She presented as a gay man until she was about 28 years old.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: You should see this woman.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: She's like stunner.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And she um, so she's a professor of climate up at Loyola and Chicago, and she did a presentation at one of the conferences I was at.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And we were, she did a post on Facebook, and um, and this is where the allyship conversation got heady.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like, uh-uh, we're not seen, we're not seen.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is the whole thing.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you're sitting there and you're calling yourself an ally.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not calling you an ally.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Fuck you, lady.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and it was this incredible conversation via Facebook that we had about how, you know, it's not our place.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: We don't get to say we're allies.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: We have to act like allies.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and that was a huge eye-opener and how people are feeling, you know, excluded from this thing that we call gender, right?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: That we call being a woman.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, a lot of folks who are in non-white female groups felt very excluded from the women's march.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the conversation has got because of social media, has gotten way better around that.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I learned a lot that day.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know what, Jen, it's so interesting because the question I've been sitting here with as you've been speaking about sort of some of the things you've noticed is in your journey mothering James, what have you learned about yourself as a mother?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean or about yourself in general, right?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: What has mothering her taught you about you in general or about you as a mother?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a really much bigger conversation because it goes into politics, but again and white privilege.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it is one of those things that we spend a lot of time.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: We're being a white woman in America is a very interesting space because and a white liberal woman in a liberal town is a very interesting space, and it has taught me like to be way more socratic when I'm talking to my non-white friends and when I'm talking to non-cisgender people, and like the norm is this huge, huge number, right?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: And when we're talking about the transgender community, we're talking about one percent of the population.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I hear you with without sort of I appreciate what you're saying, without going into political discussion, what I hear you saying is one thing that it's taught you is that you, the mother of a transgender child, which isn't isolated to being the mother of a transgender child, but you are not simply mothering in the four walls of your home.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: No, right?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: That that mothering James has become a much bigger, wider, diverse, multi-layered uh role, identity for you, process for you, right?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: That it really is, it's requi I think what I hear you're saying is it's required you to get so curious about so many systemic things because those sim systems directly impact your kid.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: And for many of us, our kids aren't impacted by those systems because they don't have to be.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that's interesting, right?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because we can't ignore it.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we can we can't ignore it, of course.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and in light of sort of wanting to bring the conversation back to you, not because I don't think these other topics are important, but I really want, I guess I'm wondering.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: How do I want to ask this question?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm wondering, yeah, but I'm wondering what I'm wondering in mothering James, I'm gonna come back to the question I asked you earlier.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: What have you needed to do for yourself that has allowed you to show up with her in the grounded, steady, neutral, advocacy way that you want to?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: What has that process been like for you inside of your own skin?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's very interesting.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, from a social standpoint, like people just take themselves out of my social circle.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: They don't realize, I don't think they realize they're doing it.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, again, I just want to come back to this important question because I think we can learn so much from you.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's stressful, that is turbulent.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: What did you need to do to take care of yourself during that type of a really stressful social experience, right?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, really help us understand.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because behind four walls, you are yelling and throwing pillows and crying and whatever shit you're doing.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: But somehow when you walk out of the house, you are able to stay steady.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the question I have for you.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um Sky and I have a really great partnership.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And Sky is more of a social introvert than I am.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you've noticed that, right?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: But he's also a big guy in stature.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it was things like I just knew that if anybody came at me, that he would be able to stand in the way and kind of be a little like a protector in a way, right?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like that was one part of it.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: The other part that I had to let go of was like uh creating the social circles that I wanted because that wasn't gonna be the case.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: So lots of boundaries.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of boundaries.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: And not like I'm likable, I can get people to like me, you know, that kind of thing.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: But there is that extra element that comes into play of having somebody who's different, and it's I mean, being transgender is being so vilified in the news and in legislation right now that it is a topic of a lot of people's conversation.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody has an opinion, not everybody, people have opinions about it, and I just have to there are cues you just start to listen for, you know what I mean?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think really like really decreasing the size of my social circle was huge.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was great for a lot of things, and it has definitely and very intentional, hard for me, because I like people, I want to be out in the world, I want to be doing things, but I it has been such a gift on the other side of that.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_03: Are you saying that you made your world smaller because that actually helped your nervous system stay more settled, and it was not putting you in a position.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you felt uncomfortable.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, my job is so weird, and this has to do with it, because my job is this you have to be social.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be in flow with people.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if I'm out there teaching realtors, I'm like, you have to be in flow, you have to do that, you gotta do the thing, and then and then I have this life where it's like you can't be in flow with everybody because everybody isn't okay with your journey.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and so my not was it my nervous system?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: I would say it was like the analogy would be like if you took a jigsaw puzzle and it was all together and you swipe swiped it off the table and all the pieces are there, then you pick up the other pieces and you have a smaller, more manageable jigsaw puzzle.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like a picture within a picture kind of thing.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was probably my nervous system, probably like I don't know about you guys, but I had a lot of like social anxiety in the middle school because of like the passing of notes and things like that.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I always wanted to be like included, and so I had to let that go.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: Were you feeling excluded with the parent again?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, just in your in your like mom world.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Not until she got a little older, which is actually a great segue.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like how has how have things changed as she's gotten older and hormones are kicking in and all the things with puberty?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not it's not so much about hormones kicking in and things like that, it's people's perception of middle schoolers.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: And when we were dealing with this family who was really terrorizing us, is my analogy of it.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: The child protective services person that we were talking to um let us know that this happens all the time, this kind of stuff, like the the trans kid getting dragged into a drama or getting accused of something, you know, that kind of thing.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: And just wait until middle school.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so now we're in middle school, right?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: And sh so what I think is cool, and and what um Terry, Nikki, her fourth and fifth grade teacher, who's also like an uncle to her, said to me was they were he was so relieved that it happened, that bullying scenario happened when she was eight because it gave her this high level of discernment.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that kid does not care about being popular, she cares about her four friends that are there in the school with her.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: She's got a couple other that are out there, like she herself like has her own small but like really tight social circle, and those kids will go to bat for one another, so it's way different than like my experience with middle school.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, which is actually what we want so often for our kids to find a safe, secure, small group of friends that they can rely on.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: So I have a question what has it been like for you and James around kind of training her if she even needs it to advocate for herself?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: She doesn't need it.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: She doesn't need it.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, I I will tell you, I will tell you the thing.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: This she's a good listener.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when she was about three, and I remember driving her up to preschool, and we we were, you know, we were in this thing, and she was definitely saying, I'm a girl, I'm a girl, and you know, I'm wearing a skirt to school today, all these kind of things.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Listen, if anybody messes with you, if you at all ever feel unsafe, you have my permission to tell them to fuck off.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: And she goes, Mom, I'm not supposed to swear at school.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, and I just repeated myself.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: I said, if anybody is ever messing with you and you feel unsafe, you have my permission to tell them to fuck off.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like, Got it.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like those are the kind of conversations we have.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like social, emotionally, she is really, really advanced, like not advanced, but mature.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: She's been through it, she's seeing what it's going on, she sees what it means.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: She even has stuff come up right now where like people who are coming out way later than her, she's like kind of jealous of because they're having this whole like, oh my god, this is so cool.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and she's like, I just look like a normal cis girl.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even look like part of my community.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just some tall blonde, you know?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like, doesn't suck, Jay.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: Which brings me to another question.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um do you feel like you have found trans community in this town where she feels a sense of community?
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: She has, she has a ton of trans friends.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: And do you have to seek it out or is it easy?
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's been part of kind of I'm gonna just kind of go off what Kay was saying before of the this mom journey for you is you and this I think is kind of what you were saying before that it's hard to separate your mothering with politics and all of it because you have to work a lot harder than me.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: Right as a mom.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's bodily autonomy now, so there's that.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: But like, do you know what I'm saying?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, I'm uh I don't have to seek out community in that way for for that person.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like you're if you're going to school with somebody and you like them and the kids like each other, you're gonna hang out and you're gonna become friends.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_03: So you I guess that's something I want to reflect is that you have taken on that job very seriously and beautifully and become and have become an advocate.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that is modeling James how to be your own advocate.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to say anything else about that?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, and that's the thing is you have these folks with you gotta, I mean, you have to vet everybody that comes your way because you don't know how they're reacting to it.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: Even when they have kids who are coming out, like the kids now, they're coming out, they're older, they're gonna do that.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't know if their parents are supportive, you know, so it's things like you know, I look at some people, I'm like, are you getting them on blockers?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: Have they had their period yet?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, because it's gonna be a shit show when he has his period, you know.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: And the you know, you can just they're still deering headlights because it's so new.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm it a decade into this, you know, so it's a different thing.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to remember to be a little bit softer.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's always such a journey.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: I I wanna um I wanna kind of bring us back full circle as we wrap up here today a little bit, and maybe we do a part two, because I really don't wanna I I think there's so much here, Jen.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so much here that's specific to being a mom of a transgendered kid.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: There's almost so much here that also so much here that's specific to being a mom of a kid who beats to his or her own drum in many ways, or who falls outside of the quote unquote norm.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And this this is this is the case for many mothers, even if their kids aren't transgendered, and I think there's so much here.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: I want to just reframe a few things that I've heard you say that I think are super valuable.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and which also it's so interesting.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like clocking back in my brain the other podcast episodes that Deb and I have done where we have actually addressed these very things, right?
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: One is that you have really been able to and really trusted your capacity to take James's lead, right?
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than needing James to show up a certain way for you based on your agenda, you've really allowed, you've you've given yourself permission and brought into your mothering your ability to follow her lead, which is really interesting.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing I heard is that you are really seeking out community, as Deb was just reframing again, in your process of learning how to go through all the different chapters of parenting James, right?
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many different chapters, and we're not meant to parent alone.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's no way that any of us can mother alone as it is, let alone when there's a specific piece to mothering that we need extra support around, right?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing I heard you say, which is so interesting, is really needing to set up boundaries for yourself around other people's opinions around how you are mothering your child.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that can look a million different ways.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: In one episode, Deb talked about having, you know, her baby bundled up in the cold and some woman being like, You shouldn't have your baby in the cold, right?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: It shows up so many different fuck off.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: It shows up in so many different ways, but really learning how to like set up the boundaries so that you're you're you're knowing who to let in and who not, whose opinion to trust and whose opinion not to trust.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um I love that.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and just the final thing I'll say, which is sort of an open-ended reflection, is man, this journey is really start.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how old is James now?
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: So she's 12.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: So your journey is you're like just starting.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're starting the medical journey too.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: So like puberty blockers, she's supposed to be really tall, so like female hormones being introduced a little bit earlier because they're like her height potential is like six, eight.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: And like, okay, so we're gonna start.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: So like you start doing female hormones, and that fuses the growth plates, right?
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like things like that, you know, and like she, you know, unless she adopts, like she'll never have a kid.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like all of the stuff that you go through that I go through, that's none of my business, you know, it's her business kind of thing.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: So you it's a lot of letting go, yes, of expectations.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um I guess the last little question, and this is not a little question, I do think we probably need a part two, is um if you could offer one word of wisdom to our listeners around how to do this with ease or grace or even just integrity.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, what would it be?
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh god, one thing.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like I said, and we we briefly touched on Skye.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: I have a really supportive partner, and he is on his own, like, you know, mending of trauma journey, you know.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's like you've got to it when this starts coming up, just start asking questions.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is great you're doing this because this gives somebody you know, somebody an anchor to start from.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think like the Marlo Mack series, she's great, you know, she's talking about things, um, reading the book, like the book that you gave me, like Becoming Nicole, and if your child is uh, you know, presenting as male after being assigned female, there's a book called George.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: But there's so many books too.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's great sex ed books, like that's the other thing is, you know, you know, don't watch euphoria.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: I love that show.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, that threw me into a panic, like looking at Jules' journey.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just because she had supportive parents in that role, you know.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I think there's just like get Socratic, start doing research.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's there are, if you're in Boulder, where we are, there's a group called TIES TYES.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's a private group, Ties Colorado, and apply to join it.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: That has a bunch of parents in there that are in the area.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: That has been a godson for me.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: We have um Women's Wilderness Institute accepts everybody but yeah, I love that.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: My sister did too.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so they will take everybody but cisgender boys.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: So you can have a transgender boys, non-binary kids, transgender girls, they will take them everywhere, but it's here out of Boulder, and that's incredible.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, there are good Facebook groups.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: We so there's a lot of support.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: So you can, yeah, you can.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you guys share socials on here, but parents can always reach out to me.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: Put that in the notes.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I can't tell you how awesome this conversation has been.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for showing up so authentically and with so much courage and just letting it all hang out for us.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_03: I learned so much today about you.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_03: I learned about the process so much more, and I'm just really grateful that you were on the show.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then I I guess I'll just add, because it's always I I feel this way after every podcast interview.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: There is so much unique that you're sharing about mothering a transgender child, and there's so much interconnectedness between the things that we need to be considering and thinking about and addressing mothering any child, right?
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's the both and it's like, oh, this is a unique journey, and all these journeys overlap, you know, all the things we need to think about self-care and how to stay neutral and how to find community and how to advocate for our kids and how to all those things, right?
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Where were you guys 10 years ago?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean this.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: We were like home, we were babies.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: We were we were lost in the shit.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: And this is great.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is great that you're doing this for moms because I like you said, like the it's the resources, the subtle things that every you know, I something that I probably said today hit somebody the way that I don't expect it to.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's right, you know.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: And these are hard, complicated topics.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: So we appreciate our listeners staying steady.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's important to be hearing these conversations too.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Jen.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Until the next time.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: See ya, Deb.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: Hey you guys, it's Kate.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: We really hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: And if you did, go ahead and share it with a friend.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: It also would mean the world to me and Deb if you would take a minute and write a review.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: If this podcast makes you laugh, it makes you cry in the best of ways, helps you feel less alone, it gives you information that's useful to you in your mothering journey.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: If you write a review, it will make this more accessible to other mothers like you.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: So take a minute.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: We'd be so grateful.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for being here.