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Throwback: Reason for the Season! · Tales From Aztlantis

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: This episode is sponsored by Archeo Gato Tours.
• 0:04
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• 0:09
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• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: Or just follow the link in the show notes.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: Now, on with the show.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: You must excuse me.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: But you've learned a lesson.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: A lesson in honesty.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Honesty to yourself and honesty to others.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Lesson must end you in good step on you.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think we've all learned a good lesson.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: I've always heard that honesty is the best policy.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Now I'm catching up why that's some why that's somehow why that's something why that's the same.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: Greetings, dear listeners, and welcome to Tales from Ostlantes, where we take you on a journey through Chicano, Mexicano, and Mesoamerican history and archaeology, and we help combat the spread of disinformation about these very topics.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: We are your hosts, Curly Tlapoyawa.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_04: And Ruben Ariano Tlaka Tecat.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_04: What is going on, my brother?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_04: Just celebrating the season.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_04: It's a wonderful time of the year.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's been wild.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: And you know what?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I have a story to tell.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_04: Oh no.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um we I don't think I know we're gonna share stories.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: Well, bring one.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: Well, maybe mine will be big enough for the both of us.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um I don't know if I've shared this with you before, but so I, like many a young lad, grew up without knowing anything about my biological father.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I didn't even know his name until very recently.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, one of my uncles sent me a letter.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, this being one of my mom's brothers sent me this letter, and it's like this really nice four-page long letter, and we're just he's just talking to me.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: But he ends it with P.S.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: Your real dad's name is Ramon Carrera.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, huh, I never even knew that.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: I never knew the guy's name.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so I poke around online and I can't really find out anything related to that name from like Pueblo Colorado or you know, where I was born or any of that.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: So one day, and this is just man, I'm telling you straight up, like this is like four weeks ago.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm out in the field and I get a ding on my phone.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: And it's one of those moments where you you get service for a little bit.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: So your phone like blows up with a bunch of messages at the same time, right?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: Because we don't really get service where I'm working.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so I pull out my phone and it says, um has messaged you on ancestry.com.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, no way.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so then, of course, I lose signal immediately.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so there's nothing I can do, I can't look up the account, see what the message is or anything.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I work and um I've been working like uh an hour or two out of town, so I'm able to drive back home at night, and I get home and I jump on the computer, and sure enough, I got this message, and so I respond to her and I'm like, hey, because because she's like, hey, we matched on uh on Ancestry, like really, really close.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: It says we're closer than like first cousins, and I'm like, Well, are you related to Ramon Carrera by any chance?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_03: She's like, Yeah, that's my dad.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: So what?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and holy smokes, right?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm still like kind of processing all of this, and so like video messages me, like video chats, and we like talk for like two hours, and it turns out that our shared biological father was deported like 30 years ago, and he's still alive, and he lives in Chihuahua, like his he's from Chihuahua.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: Whoa, and uh that's crazy.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: This is nuts, right?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, wow.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: So uh yeah, that's been just kind of rattling around in my brain for a while, and I haven't told too many people about it, but um, yeah, I wanted to share that with you because it's it's been it's been weird processing it, you know what I mean?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: A bit, a bit, I bet.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_04: So so you you're connecting with your sister, and are you gonna try to connect with your biological father at some point or you know what?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, it's it's one of those questions, right?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like I want to know certain things.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but honestly, what I what's really motivating me right now is I kind of want to get dual citizenship.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I spoke to some friends who've done it, and apparently, like if if I could get his birth certificate or something from him, then the process isn't that difficult.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, thinking of getting Mexican citizen citizenship.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, there's a lot of people that I've been I've been um talking to are having the same thought about maybe getting dual citizenship because yeah, things are kind of uncertain at the moment.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_04: But but at the same time, you know, um word on the street is that old uh Mega Cheeks here is thinking about maybe uh sending special forces into Mexico because you know he's he's the savior of America or some reason, you know, as uh or he believes himself to be.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_04: And so the question has come up in on the Discord channel by some of our supporters and members uh asking the question about uh you know what you know what to do in in those kinds of situations, you know, what's um Claudia Scheinbaum's response.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, she's been responding kind of uh, you know, she's she's trying to be diplomatic about it, right?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, she has said a few forceful things, uh countering some of the statements that um Trump has said, uh, but um when push comes to shove, right?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I was thinking about this too.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't post it on the Discord, but I was thinking, you know, this is a provocation, you know, like it starts with these kinds of uh threats and uh you know antagonisms, and it reminds me of what happened back in the US-Mexico War of 1846-1848, because you know, at the time, you know, we had Manifest Destiny going on in this country, you had a significant amount of people at the time who had bought into this notion that the continent was supposed to be theirs through divine you know providence from sea to sea.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_04: And it just so happened to me that not only were you know Native Americans from the continental US in the way, but also those pesky Mexicans, you know, those uh those uh quote-unquote mongrel peoples from from Mexico and from from that part from Latin America, who were also in the way of this this dream, this favorite dream that a lot of people have.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_04: As we are wont to do.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_04: We're always getting in the way, always getting in the way.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_04: And so it it it starts with with um with Texas, right?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_04: Texas uh when I teach this part of the history and in the first half of American history, I tell students there's just no, and I think I might have said this before on the podcast, there's no way to really tell the story of just at least the 19th century America without telling the story of Texas Revolution and its independence and how that leads into the US-Mexico War, which basically not only um dismembers Mexico, right?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_04: The northern half of Mexico basically goes to the US, um, but it it's also part of the story of Western expansion, and it's also the story of the Civil War, because one of the things that triggers the Civil War is the debate over whether or not slavery is going to be allowed in the Western uh territories as the nation is expanding, as more states are being carved out of those territories.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_04: You know, that's a big debate.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you have the Missouri Compromise, um, and then you know you have um a lot of rhetoric, a lot of people pushing for the expansion of slavery, and even way before the US-Mexico war, like you had people already saying, hey, we probably should just go ahead and invade Mexico.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_04: There was this whole invade Mexico movement that was also kind of in place, and it it it picks up steam during the Texas uh war for independence, and then after that it just kind of snowballs and and it bleeds directly into the Civil War because you know you have those debates about slavery, about expansionism, and then one of the things also with with Southerners is that it the U.S.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_04: Mexico War, besides you know, the the war for uh American independence and the war uh of 1812, the US-Mexico War was basically the first major um international war that the U.S.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_04: had um you know, that had nothing to do with England, right?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_04: It was it was Mexico, it was its first major war, and a lot of the people that end up on both sides, on the north and the south, that end up you know being on the Union side or the Confederate side cut their teeth in that war, in the US-Mexico War.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_04: So the US-Mexico War was kind of like a proving ground for the Civil War.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_04: And so now, fast forward, you know, now we are again kind of in this moment, right?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_04: Like everything's old is new again, almost, not quite, but almost 200 years, right?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_04: Later on, you know, it's like here we go again, here we go again.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_04: So I don't know.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I'm not an alarmist, I don't want to be an alarmist, but as a historian, I do find a lot of parallels, and it's interesting just to because you know, one of the things that I like to say is that you know, there's that old saying, the cliche, that you know, if you don't know your history, you're doomed to repeat it.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_04: But you know, Mark Twain, I think he's the one that's credited for saying that history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes, and this is definitely a rhyme.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_04: This is definitely a rhyme.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: This country is spitting bars right now, as the kids like to say.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_03: Check one two, check one two.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: Well, in the spirit of saviors, since you mentioned the savior of of uh of of the United States, as he likes to think of himself, I think we're going to delve into uh uh a little bit of history today that maybe a lot of Chicanos and Mexicanos are aware of, but you know, maybe they they they don't know the particulars of the story.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: So, dear listeners, it's that time of year again when the mainstream media and their corporate overlords conspire to wage war on the winter holiday meant to celebrate the birth of our Savior and erase our annual traditions.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'm referring, of course, to the birth of Huitzilopochtli, our son reborn, and the associated feast of Panquetza Listli.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_03: But fear not, dear listeners, because here in Ostlantis, we proudly say, Mary Banketza Listli.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_03: We're bringing it back.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_04: So is it ho ho ho, or what would it be instead of ho ho ho?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good question.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but this is the time where we honor Huitzilopochtli as the reason for the season.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: Now, for the uninitiated, you may ask yourself, what is this feast of Panketzalistli?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: And what is this story about the birth of Huitzilopochli?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: Well, dear listener, I'm glad you asked, because for this episode, we're going to delve into the reason for the season.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: The feast of Panketzalistli, or the raising of the banners, is the twelfth month of the ancestral Mexica calendar.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, before all the haters pipe in.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: I know they're not called months, but for the sake of simplicity, I'm going to refer to it as a month.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: It is marked by the celebration of the winter solstice and the birth of the new sun as Huitzilopochtli, the hummingbird on the left, one of the principal teteo honored by the Mexica, the other being Flalok.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: Traditionally, Pankezalisli was celebrated with dance, feasting, music, and a foot race.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_03: An effigy of Huitzilopochli was constructed from amaranth flour and agave nectar and then broken apart and eaten after the race.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_03: Tamales were also made and eaten, and mock battles in honor of Huitzilopochtli were waged between students of the rival Telpochgalis or boys' schools.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: Households were decorated with paper banners, and small fires fueled by Okote burned throughout the celebration, providing a signal to the returning sun.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_03: During the entire twenty days, gratitude was shown towards all the trees and plants that provided fruit, grain, herbs, firewood, etc., and they were adorned with decorations in the form of painted banners fabricated from strips of papel de amateur or bark paper.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: The story of Huitz Lopochli's birth can be found in chapter one of book three of the Florentine Codex.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: And so I thought it would be cool and fun to tell this story, to read the story as it was written by our ancestors, because I know a lot of people are aware of you know the basic idea or the story of the birth, but I thought it would be really cool to actually crack open the Florentine Codex and read it as it was written.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: The story goes as follows.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: This episode of Tales from Ostlantis is brought to you by Ostlantis Premium.
• 16:00
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• 16:05
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• 16:07
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• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: Just visit talesfromostlantis.com and click Go Premium or follow the link in the show notes.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: And now on with the show.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_04: The Meshika greatly revered Witzilopochtri.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_04: They knew his origin, his beginning.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_04: The beginning was in this manner.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_04: In Quatlipec, on the way to Tetula, there was living there dwelt a woman by the name of Quatlique.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_04: She was mother of the Senson Witznawa, the four hundred Tateo of the south, and their sister, who was known by the name Goyol Shaoki.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_04: And this Quatlique did penance there.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_04: She swept, it was her task to sweep.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_04: Thus she did penance in Kwatepec, the mountain of the serpent.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_04: And one day, when Quatlique was sweeping, there fell on her some plumage, a ball of fine feathers.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_04: Immediately Kwatlique picked them up and put them in her bosom.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_04: When she finished sweeping, she looked for the feathers she had put in her bosom, but she found nothing there.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_04: At that moment Quatlikwe was with child.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_03: The four hundred Taleo of the South, seeing that their mother was with child, were very annoyed and said, Who has done this to you?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: Who has made you with a child?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: This insults us, dishonors us.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_03: And their sister, Hoyoshauki, said to them, My brothers, she has dishonored us.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: We must kill our mother, the wicked woman who is now with a child.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: Who gave her what she carries in her womb?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: When Guaatlique heard of this, she was very frightened, she was very sad.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: But her son, Huitilohochli, in her womb, comforted her and said to her, Do not be afraid.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: I know what I must do.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: Guatlique, having heard the words of her son, was consoled.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: Her heart was quiet.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: She felt at peace.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: But meanwhile, the four hundred Teteo of the South came together to make a decision.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: And together they decided to kill their mother, because she had disgraced them.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: They were very angry.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_03: They were very agitated, as if the heart had gone out of them.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: Koyoshauki incited them.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: She inflamed the anger of her brothers, so that they should kill her mother.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: And the four hundred that they made ready.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_03: They attired themselves as for war, and those Sensonwitznawa were like captains.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_03: They twisted and bound up their hair, as warriors arrange their long hair.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_04: But one of them called Kwawitlikak broke his word.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_04: What the four hundred said, he went immediately to tell.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_04: He went and revealed it to Uitilopochtli.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_04: And Utilopochtli replied to him, Take care, be watchful, my uncle, for I know well what I must do.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_04: And when finally they came to an agreement, the four hundred gods were determined to kill, to do away with their mother.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_04: Then they began to prepare, Koyol Shauki directing them.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_04: They were very robust, well equipped, adorned as for war.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_04: They distributed among themselves their paper garb, their anekuyot, or the girdle, the nettles, the streamers of colored paper.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_04: They tied little bells on the calves of their legs.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_04: The bells called Oyo Wali.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_04: Their arrows had barbed points.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_04: Then they began to move.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_04: They went in order, in line, in orderly squadrons.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_04: Koyol Shaoki led them.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_04: But Kwawitlikak went immediately up unto the mountain so as to speak from there to Huitzilopochtli.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_04: He said to him, Now they are coming.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_04: Whitilopochli replied to him, Look carefully which way they are coming.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_04: Then Kwawitlik said, Now they are coming through Sompantitlan.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_04: And again Wechilopochli said to him, Where are they coming now?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_04: Kwawitlik replied to him, Now they are coming through Kwa Kalpan.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_04: And once more Witsilopochli asked Kwawitlik, look carefully which way they are coming.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_04: Immediately Kwawitlik answered him, Now they are coming up the side of the mountain.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_04: And yet again Huitilopochtli said to him, Look carefully which way they are coming.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_04: Then Kwawitlikak said to him, Now they are on top of the mountain, they are here.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_04: Koyoshoki is leading them.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: At that moment, Huitzilopochtli was born.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: He put on his gear, his shield of eagle feathers, his darts, his blue dart thrower.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: He painted his face with diagonal stripes in the color called child's paint.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: On his head, he arranged fine plumage.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: He put on his earplugs, and on his left foot, which was Withered, he wore a sandal covered with feathers, and his legs and his arms were painted blue.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: And the so-called Kochankalki set fire to the serpent of Candlewood, the one called Shukoat, that obeyed Huitzilopochtli.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: With a serpent of fire, he struck Koyoshauki.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: He cut off her head and left it lying there on the slope of Koatepet.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: The body of Koyosauki went rolling down the hill.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: It fell to pieces.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: In different places fell her hands, her legs, her body.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: Then Huitzilopochli was proud.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: He pursued the Tsen Witznawa.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: He chased them off, drove them off the top of Koatepec, the mountain of the snake.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_03: And when he followed them down to the foot of the mountain, he pursued them.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: He chased them like rabbits all around the mountain.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: He made them run around it four times.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: In vain they tried to rally against him.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_03: In vain they turned to attack him, rattling their bells and clashing their shields.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_03: Nothing could they do.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: Nothing could they gain.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_03: When nothing could with nothing could they defend themselves, Witchilopochli chased them.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: He drove them away.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: He humbled them.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_03: He destroyed them.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: He annihilated them.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_04: Even then he did not leave them, but continued to pursue them.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_04: And they begged him repeatedly.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_04: They said to him, It is enough.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_04: But Witchilopochli was not satisfied.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_04: With force he pushed against them.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_04: He pursued them.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_04: Only a very few were able to escape him, escape from his reach.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_04: They went toward the south.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_04: And because they went toward the south, they are called gods of the south.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_04: And then Witchilopochli had killed them.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_04: When he had given vent to his wrath, he stripped off their gear.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_04: Their ornaments, their anekuyok.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_04: He put them on, he took possession of them, he introduced them into his destiny, he made them his own insignia.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_04: And this Witchilopochli, as they say, was a prodigy, because only from fine plumage which fell into the womb of his mother Kwatlique was he conceived.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_04: He never had any father.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_04: The Meshika venerated him, they made sacrifices to him, honored and served him.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_04: And Witsilopochli rewarded those who did this.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_04: And his cult came from there, from Kwatepec, the mountain of the serpent.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_04: And it was practiced from this most ancient times.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_04: That's such a cool story.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: It is.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: That's a badass story.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um the scholarly consensus is that this story represents the birth of Huitzilopochli as the new son of the winter solstice.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: He does battle with the Tsenson Witznawa, the 400 Teteo of the South, scattering them across the sky as he defeats them, and thus turning them into the stars.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: And the disarticulation of his sister Koyoshauki's body represents the different phases of the moon.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: Offerings are made to Witsilopochli at this time of year so that he can travel back across the sky with renewed strength.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I really like the way that the story kind of builds the tension with the little uh like the spy, one of the Tenson Witzinawa, who's like, Oh, I know what's gonna happen.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so he's telling him, like, they're coming, they're coming, and and Huitzilopochtli's having him, you know, give him exact locations of where they're coming from.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I don't know, man.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: This would be a pretty cool movie.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_04: I know.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_04: I'm curious as to when no one's made it.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, maybe in Mexico there's like an animated clip or something, but not like a cool, but something like you know, big, something with a lot of production and a lot of like money behind it.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_04: Like uh, what's his name?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_04: Del Toro?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, Guillermo del Toro.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_04: Guillermo del Toro, right?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_04: Like he's always doing all this cool stuff, but it's it's never really Mexican stuff, right?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_04: Like it's like a lot of Spanish stuff, a lot of stuff like this with the Spanish.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_04: He's very European-centric, right?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_04: Like, dude, it's cool, I like it, I love it.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_04: But I mean, come on, man.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_04: Like, there's a lot of stories in Mexico you can tell, bro.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: So as far as the festivals and festivities of Banque Salistli, we can continue these traditions to this day, right now, through dance, through song, through feasting.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: We can make our own representations of Huitzilopochtli from Amarinth, and we can light the way for the sun's return with bonfires of ocote.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, here in New Mexico, this tradition is maintained to this day through the lighting of Lumenarias and Farolitos, although admittedly, this is done through a colonial Catholic lens.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: One of my favorite parts of the traditional celebration of the birth of Huizilopochtli and of Panquetzalisli is the ritual burning of the Shukoa following a foot race.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: So basically, they have this, you know, they build this effigy or shipla of Huitzilopochli out of Amaranth.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: And supposedly it was massive.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: And they would have this uh foot race with the people who could get to the uh to it first.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: And after the race, there was this ritual of where they took this you know reproduction of the shoe goa and they like danced with it and paraded it through the through the streets.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: And in my imagination, you know, I I could kind of picture like the the Chinese dragons.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_04: I know, I was thinking the same thing being carried around.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um Mark, you know, paraded through the streets with drumming and singing, and then as part of that ritual, they burn the the Shu Goa, they set it on fire.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um the Florentine Codex describes this particular part of the feast, and it sounds pretty amazing.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be back after a quick break.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: Have you picked up your Mexica calendar for the year twelve Flint?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: Or how about a paperback copy of the four disagreements?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: Just visit talesfromacidlantis.com for all the latest merchandise and show some love for your favorite podcast.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: That's TalesFromOcidlantis.com for all the latest merchandise.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_03: Now, back to the show.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_04: Thereupon likewise descended the fire serpent.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_04: It was just like a blazing pine firebrand.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_04: Its tongue was made of flaming red feathers.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_04: It went as if burning like a torch, and its tail was of paper, perhaps two fathoms or three fathoms long.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_04: As it came down, it was like a real serpent.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_04: It showed its tongue.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_04: It was as if it bent back and forth.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_04: And then the priest had brought it to the base of the temple.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_04: He proceeded carefully there to the eagle vessel.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_04: Then he went up to the eagle vessel.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_04: Also he raised the fire serpent in dedication to the four directions.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_04: When he had so raised it in dedication, then he cast it upon the sacrificial papers, then they burned.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_04: And when he had come to leave it, when he went ascending to the top, then shelled trumpets were blown.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_03: And that comes to us from the Florentine Codex, Book 2, Chapter 34, page 147.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: If you want to look it up yourself.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it kind of reminds me, it's reminiscent of this uh celebration that they do in New Mexico.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, don't they burn like some big effigy of some sort in New Mexico?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_04: Do you know what it's called?
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_04: I've heard of uh yeah, the Zozobra.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_04: There you go, the Zozobra.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm sure there's not really a direct connection to it, but it's very reminiscent of that in a way.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: What what I like about that.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like this this burning of old man gloom, right, is what they call it, the Zozobra.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: And what the Chicano community has done here in sort of like response to the burning of Zozobra, because the Zozobra has um its origins are with like these uh Anglo artists who got together and and they were like, Oh, we're gonna create this, you know, this great festivity here in New Mexico in Santa Fe, and and we're gonna, and you know, allegedly they came up with the idea sitting at a coffee shop or a bar or something, and they like sketched it all out.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, one of their artist friends built the first representation of it.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_03: So, what the Chicano community here has done uh in response or reaction to this is we have the uh the burning of the cukui, and in the South Valley, which is where most of the Chicanos live, um, in one of the parks, they build a giant effigy of the kukui, and the kids they invite all the kids, all the you know, all the rasa come out, and they have the kids write their fears down on paper, and they stuff the kukui with their fears.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like a big pinata that's stuffed with the fears of the the children, yes, and then uh there's dansa and music, and uh they they set the the fire um it's in the fall.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's in the fall, okay.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: So in my house, we do our own version of the ritual of the burning of the shuka by creating a small shuka out of amate paper, and basically I just draw one out and color it.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I'd have quetz or somebody color it.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'll probably have my granddaughter color it this year.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, we have our dinner and then uh we burn it.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: We burn the our shuquat, we burn it in our fireplace, and I'll usually sing some songs while we're burning it.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so there are many ways that we as Chicanos can celebrate Bunket Salistli, you know, new traditions that could be uh invented or built upon older traditions, right?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: Revitalized, meaning revitalized, that's the word that I'm looking for.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_03: And the important thing is that we just don't let these traditions fade away, that we maintain them somehow, in my opinion.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: So with that, dear listeners, we say happy salisli, and may your winter be filled with food, family and friends.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_04: Right on.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_04: You know what I like about this?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_04: It kind of reminds me uh at the start where you're describing the the ceremony or the feast or the ritual where they they discuss or they they mention um that there's like some kind of like wrestling match that takes place.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_04: Is that right?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_04: Is that correct?
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_04: Or so it's a um it's like a mock battle.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_04: Mock battle, that's what it was.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_04: And so it kind of reminds me of like um Festivus, you know, the what's the um the testing of the feats of strength?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_04: The feats of strength.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_04: Then the airing of the grievance area.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_03: I have a lot of problems with you people.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, hmm, I wonder someone was reading the Florentine codecs.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and you know, it's it's cool to like elaborate our own versions of these uh of these festivities.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I mentioned that because there's an artist online, he's on Instagram, he calls himself uh Mikorazon Mexica.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I like this stuff.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_03: Really, really good uh uh painter, right?
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: Right, and he actually provided the cover art for this episode.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, nice.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_03: I wanted to give him uh yeah, give him a shout out.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_03: And um, one thing that he's really good at, like, even though he and I use different counts, like the calendar, the calendar, um, he has developed like these really, really cool ways of sort of articulating modern versions of the ceremonies, of the monthly ceremonies.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_03: So shout out to him, um and and Lascamati for for right hooking us up with the artwork for uh for this episode.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_04: So speaking of ceremonies, um, so Quatlique is mentioned in this story, right?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_04: And um without trying to make a parallel or you know insinuate that there's a connection, I mean it it it is kind of coincidental that um this story is about Uchilopochli and the winter solstice, and it happens to fall around the same time as the current uh colonialist um veneration of the Virgin Mary, the Guadalupe, right?
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_04: And how she's conflated with Batlique a lot.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_04: When in fact, um that that we've been saying, so I don't know if we want to say this or now or just kind of briefly touch on it, but maybe I'm thinking we need to like save it for its own episode.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_04: But going back to what we've been saying, right?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_04: That um that the teo who were venerated at the payakak were umekuat and siwaquat.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_04: And uh apparently, and I need to follow up on this because it's only one source, and I don't I don't have a reason to doubt it, but I just haven't had time to really follow up on their sources.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_04: But this source that I found recently is saying that Siwakoat and Guatlique are kind of two sides of the same tateo, one is represents life, one represents death, and that if that's true, then that means that in a way the Tonan Sin that was being uh referred to early on, because eventually over time, Tonansin now means the Virgin, but originally originally it did not, and that's what people missed, they missed that whole point.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_04: That originally our ancestors, when they called when they went to Tepayac to the chapel, and when they revered and venerated and did rituals to Tonansin, the image of the Virgin was incidental.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_04: They were really doing it to Siwa Coat, and by extension, if it's true that Siwakot's opposite is quatlique, then yes, they were also doing it to Quatlique.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it'd be interesting.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: I hadn't heard that.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, that's that's uh that's uh I think that's the merit its own episode.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_04: But I just wanted to toss that in here because it comes up, and and I'm sure someone might have the question or might make the comment.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_04: Well, actually, right?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_04: You know, like so I'm I'm gonna signpost that here.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_04: So let letting our listeners know that we will come back to this, but yeah, I just wanted to point that out.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_04: So stay tuned, dear listeners.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, man.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um I really, you know, this honestly, this is like my favorite time of the year.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I like the cold weather.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I like snow.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: I've all you know, growing up in southern Colorado, I've always enjoyed the winter time and the time spent with family and just the food, the inevitable food, you know, the tamales and the posole and and everything else that comes along with it.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and just spending time with family and friends.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, I hope this episode gives some of our people a way to enjoy this time of year without it being so Catholic-centered and Christian-centered, or New Agey too, because oftentimes, like when we talk about like the winter solstice, it's been so infused with new agey stuff that it um it almost feels kind of weird sometimes.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_04: That's why I don't even like promote it that much.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_04: Like, for instance, uh like on my social media posts, like I just talk about with it's with Tilopochlies of you know night, and like I very minimally will I say winter solstice because I don't want it to be associated with new age.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it carries the baggage with it now, unfortunately.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_04: And so I'll I'll try to be careful to distinguish between what the new age people are doing and what we're doing, right?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_04: Or at least what we're trying to do.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_04: Like in your family and my family, with uh venerating, you know, just the natural phenomena that is the winter solstice.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's what the story is basically explaining.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_04: I remember many, many, many years ago, um back in the old MES days when we had uh the discussion board.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if someone had posted something that that they found on the website that was criticizing something we did or something that we said uh in regards to Huitilopochli and the story of how you know he uh dismembers Coyol Shawkee.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_04: And and the the people who were critical of what we were saying were basically making a feminist argument saying that that the story only um sort of supports the notion that Mexican culture is is machista, right?
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_04: And we were like, but wait a minute, this is before machismo gets even introduced into the culture.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_04: That's something that the Spaniards brought with them, right?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_04: Because our ancestors were more about you know egalitarian society and and you know the feminine uh uh was always revered and given their space and their their due, right?
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_04: And so we were trying to explain to them, like, no, like you don't understand.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_04: The story is not to be taken literal.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_04: It's like it's yeah, it's not about pushing down or oppressing women, it's about Koyol Shauki representing the moon, which I Lupachli representing the sun, and the stars the stars.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_04: Like this is just a story explaining a natural phenomenon called the winter's solstice.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_04: And they weren't wanting to hear it because like they had made up their minds that you know, because it comes from Mexican culture, and it's representing you know, uh a woman being beheaded and being oppressed by uh male uh you know figure.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like okay, but you're I would also like to point out, yeah, I mean, yeah, the point is being missed, but I'd also like to point out that he literally like kills 400 of his brothers.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_04: But that's okay because those are just dudes, yeah, yeah.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_03: Well, my friend, I was thinking the other day about because I've been thinking about my pops a lot lately because he passed away.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I remember when uh you were visiting uh down in New Mexico, and it was during this time of year.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_03: It was, and we were gonna light a bonfire for Huitzlopochli.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: So we like set up all the wood and everything, and my dad just came out with a bunch of gas.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_03: He's like, here, hold on.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, dad.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: Cool dude.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: I'm glad I met him.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_03: One of my favorite memories.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: Seems like now that's a that's a fire.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's a fire, yeah.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: Good memories, man.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_03: Well, my friend, merry panquet salisli.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, merry pankets litli, exactly.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_04: So that's what we're trying to say to our listeners, to each and every one of you out there.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um, whatever you celebrate, you know, just on our end, just uh accept this merry panquet salistli as our way of saying to you happy holidays.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_04: Salute.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: Salute, cheers, and thank you for listening to Tales from Ostlantis, a project of the Chimale Institute of Mesoamerican Arts.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_03: If you enjoy the show, please consider becoming a Patreon supporter.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: You can do this by visiting TalesFromOstlantis.com and clicking Support the Podcast.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: Your continued support will help keep the podcast ad free and independent.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_03: Until next time, Timo Itase.