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What exactly is the Peter Principle? · Stuff You Should Know

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  Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
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  Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff you should know?
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  Speaker 1: Front House Stuff Works dot Com. Hey, and welcome to
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  Speaker 1: the podcast. There's Chuck Bryant about fall Asleep and I'm
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  Speaker 1: Josh Clark. This is stuff you should know. How's it going?
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  Speaker 1: You just went on? He Hall, I totally did. Didn't
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  Speaker 1: I get the price tag? I'm a little hat. Did
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: you watch that as a kid? No, I never did.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: That was more solid gold guy, Yeah, see that now
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Big Time and Muppets. Muppets Actually I think came on
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: before after solid Gold, cal Burnet schell. Yeah. Yeah, My
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  Speaker 1: mom was a big tribe. Me too. I thought Tim
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Conway was the funniest human being. You're gonna bring up
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: to Tim Conway. Chuck always talks about Tim Conway's assess it.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: It's always about Tim Conway. Tim Conway, This Tim Conway
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  Speaker 1: that you know what? Never happened to Tim Conway. He
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  Speaker 1: never got promoted to a job he wasn't qualified for.
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  Speaker 1: We've been doing this way too long, Chuck, way too long. Together.
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  Speaker 1: You can predict my every move. He can just point
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  Speaker 1: and he knows what I'm about to do. Sometimes I
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  Speaker 1: wonder if I actually do things because he's telling me
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  Speaker 1: to with his mind. Yeah, tell me that power, dude. Oh,
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  Speaker 1: I'd be in big trouble, he would. Yeah, so chuck, Um,
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  Speaker 1: let's talk about the Peter principle. Have you ever heard
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  Speaker 1: of this before? Well, I've read your article when it
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  Speaker 1: was initially published a while ago, But I mean, were
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  Speaker 1: you disappointed with it then too? I actually thought it
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  Speaker 1: was better than I do now. But I see, I
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  Speaker 1: grew up with this, Like my dad had this book
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  Speaker 1: and it was like it was like sixties kind of
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  Speaker 1: like intelligent ha ha ha kind of joke, you know,
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  Speaker 1: like hotail party humor. Yeah, and I grew up around
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  Speaker 1: that kind of thing, so I you know, intelligence. So uh,
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  Speaker 1: this was like the Peter principal to me is something
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  Speaker 1: that like I've known forever. So it's odd to meet
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  Speaker 1: people who don't who hadn't really heard of it before. Well,
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  Speaker 1: my parents were both educators and maybe, um, like I
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  Speaker 1: knew nothing about business in corporate life and that kind
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  Speaker 1: of thing. My dad was an engineer, a train engineer. Yeah, dude, dude, no, no, okay,
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  Speaker 1: Now he's a mechanical engineer. For untrained. Yep. Okay, so, Chuck,
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  Speaker 1: that what we're talking about is based on a uh,
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  Speaker 1: let's see, I think it's a nineteen sixty nine book,
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  Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven, nineteen sixty nine, we'll say, somewhere in there,
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  Speaker 1: and it's called the Peter Principal Why Things Always Go Wrong?
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  Speaker 1: And it definitely was based on an article written by
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  Speaker 1: a guy named Dr Lawrence J. Peter who was a
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  Speaker 1: an educator, and apparently it was an Esquire magazine initially
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  Speaker 1: in January nineteen sixty seven. Yes, there was a huge
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  Speaker 1: response to it, right uh. And basically what it was
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  Speaker 1: it was tongue in cheek. It's an unnatural law like
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  Speaker 1: Parkinson's law, which we'll get to, right sure, or Murphy's law,
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  Speaker 1: which we won't get to. We've already done that one,
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  Speaker 1: I think. Or was that pre Chuck. I think it
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  Speaker 1: was pre Chuck. Those days don't exist in my mind.
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  Speaker 1: Uh yeah. So anyway, Chuck, it's a it's a kind
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  Speaker 1: of tongue in cheek, but it actually does reveal, um,
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  Speaker 1: kind of this this rye observation that you know, all
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  Speaker 1: of us have seen at one time or another that eventually,
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  Speaker 1: if you promote somebody based on good work, you're going
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  Speaker 1: to promote them to a point where they're no longer
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  Speaker 1: they're so far out of their field they've become incompetent
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  Speaker 1: in their current job. That's pretty funny. There's one stertling
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  Speaker 1: example that comes to mind. Oh, I don't know, back
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  Speaker 1: in the heavy days of two thousand five, maybe late
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  Speaker 1: August early September two thousand five, a little thing called
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  Speaker 1: Hurricane Katrina struck New Orleans with a vengeance. And there's this,
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  Speaker 1: um I think it's a federal agency and it's charged
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  Speaker 1: with handling natural disasters or disasters of any kind that
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  Speaker 1: occur in the US. That would be the Federal Emergency
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  Speaker 1: Management Agency a FEMA. Uh And um, it just so
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  Speaker 1: happened that in late August of two thousand five, FEMA
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  Speaker 1: was headed by a guy named Michael Brown who you
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  Speaker 1: may know and love is Brownie. So Brownie was running
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  Speaker 1: the show when herr Kane Katrina hit and basically it
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  Speaker 1: took days for the FEDS to respond. I remember reading
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  Speaker 1: an article or several maybe where Bush was questioning whether
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  Speaker 1: it's even the federal government's role to help out in
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  Speaker 1: this kind of disaster. Right, Well, sure enough, FEMA finally
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  Speaker 1: gets around to helping. I think they got a few
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  Speaker 1: bottles of water down there and truck some people out.
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  Speaker 1: That kind of thing. Uh. And amid this complete cluster
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  Speaker 1: of a rescue humanitarian mission, mismanagement totally and in every
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  Speaker 1: form of the word. Yeah, the good people of FEMA,
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  Speaker 1: and we want to say we're probably working very hard,
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  Speaker 1: but it was missing. It was a top down day
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  Speaker 1: and and just ease off. I'm gonna, I'm gonna. I'm
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  Speaker 1: gonna bail Brownie out here in a second. Um. But
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  Speaker 1: amid this this bungled crisis rescue mission, Bush goes down
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  Speaker 1: to New Orleans and says, Brownie, you're doing a heck
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  Speaker 1: of a job, which he wasn't now and he even
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  Speaker 1: knew he wasn't. No, this is not judgment on our part, right,
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  Speaker 1: I think even while the the rescue operation or the
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  Speaker 1: crisis alleviation operations going on, Brownie famously said, can I
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  Speaker 1: quit now? Why made me feel bad for the guy? Yeah? No,
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  Speaker 1: I agree, he's in over his head. I feel bad
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  Speaker 1: for him. Two And he was in way over his
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  Speaker 1: head why because of the Peter principle, because he was
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  Speaker 1: promoted to a position he was not qualified to manage correct,
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  Speaker 1: he period he was formerly his job right before the
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  Speaker 1: head of FEMA. He was in charge of the Commission
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  Speaker 1: on Judges for the Arabian Horse Association. He's good at
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  Speaker 1: it too. Yeah, he excelled in that position, right. That
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  Speaker 1: was part of the reason why I think, you know,
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  Speaker 1: maybe a little bit of helping your buddy out I
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  Speaker 1: had to do with it. So, which which everybody does?
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I got this job because of a friend,
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  Speaker 1: So that did you? Really? I got this job by
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  Speaker 1: my own blood sweat and tears, pal, blood sweat and tears, Josh,
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  Speaker 1: great band agreed, So is earth wind and fire right,
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  Speaker 1: But earth wind and fire won't get you a job.
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  Speaker 1: Blood sweat and tears as well, agreed? So well, cool
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  Speaker 1: in the gang. Okay, so Chuck um, you're right there.
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  Speaker 1: There is a certain level of nepotism or I'm not
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  Speaker 1: sure what it's called when you get friends jobs. Is
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  Speaker 1: it still nepotism relatively familiar? Yeah? Yeah, I'm not sure
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  Speaker 1: that we'll figure it out. Um so yeah. So, but
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  Speaker 1: Brownie doesn't fit the classic definition of the Peter principle
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  Speaker 1: because he got his job in large part because he
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  Speaker 1: knew the president right, Is it usually someone who's promoted
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  Speaker 1: from within? Is that the distinction? Yes? Okay, yeah, So
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  Speaker 1: what happens is you, I use the example in this
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  Speaker 1: article of a web designer. Think of when a guy's
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  Speaker 1: in DEBV right, right, So you're just excelling at your work.
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  Speaker 1: You're you're you're working your tail off. Everything you do
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  Speaker 1: is just golden. You're born developer. Right. Well, if you
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  Speaker 1: do that long enough, and you get to know the
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  Speaker 1: people around you long enough, you'll probably get promoted to
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  Speaker 1: a position of of manager where you're still over the
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  Speaker 1: dev department, but you're now telling the dev department what
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  Speaker 1: to do. Conceivably, if you're of a certain ilk, you
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  Speaker 1: you would be able to kind of carry that out. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: if if you're capable of doing that. But let's say
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  Speaker 1: that you are kind of good at that, and you
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  Speaker 1: excel at that, but you're still really you're doing you're
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  Speaker 1: walking behind other people and fixing their mistakes, that kind
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  Speaker 1: of thing. You're still doing developing. Let's say you excel
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  Speaker 1: in that managerial position and you get promoted eventually out
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  Speaker 1: of development, and maybe you're over development like you're the
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  Speaker 1: ct O R, but you're no longer developing. Oh, you're managing,
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  Speaker 1: You're working with budgets, you're hiring people, you're firing, completely
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  Speaker 1: different skill set. You're likely going to be incompetent unless
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  Speaker 1: you're a born manager and you're good with budgets, you know, um,
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  Speaker 1: dealing with CEOs and CEOs and stuff like that. Right,
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  Speaker 1: that actually happened, same exact scenario at my last job,
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  Speaker 1: a web developer, and he was great at that. They
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  Speaker 1: promoted him, and um, he was not a good manager
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  Speaker 1: of people. No, I think. I think it takes a
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  Speaker 1: certain kind of person. It's like sales, right, I can't
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  Speaker 1: sell anything. Come on, come on, I think dude. Uh no,
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  Speaker 1: I I can't. Like I'm no good at sales. Um,
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  Speaker 1: I also suck at serving. I was a terrible waiter. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I was a decent waiter. I sucked at it. That's good. Thanks, Um,
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  Speaker 1: so thanks? Why is that good? Well, because that means
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  Speaker 1: you don't have to be a waiter. That's true. Well,
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  Speaker 1: you were good at it, and you're not a waiter.
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  Speaker 1: Well true, I'm a writer. It's only one letter different. Agreed. Um.
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  Speaker 1: So let's say you you you do get promoted to
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  Speaker 1: CTO and you're doing hiring and firing. Now here's where
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  Speaker 1: the Peter principle, which has just occurred because you've been
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  Speaker 1: promoted to your level of incompetence, Here's where it becomes
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  Speaker 1: a vicious cycle. Right, right, do you want to take where?
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  Speaker 1: Because okay, uh, the the since you're hiring and firing people,
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  Speaker 1: you're probably also likely promoting people. So if you're an
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  Speaker 1: incompetent manager, then you are probably going to make terrible
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  Speaker 1: decisions on who to promote. So the problem with it
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  Speaker 1: is that eventually, in a hierarchy which all businesses are
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  Speaker 1: based on, or it's a top down, top down process
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  Speaker 1: for pyramid, most of the work is being done by
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  Speaker 1: the lower levels the base of the pyramid, and then
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  Speaker 1: you go further and further up, and the least amount
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  Speaker 1: of work is being done by the people at the top. Supposedly,
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  Speaker 1: I hear. Uh, So eventually the top of the hierarchy
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  Speaker 1: becomes populated exclusively by incompetent people in a worst case
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  Speaker 1: Peter principal scenario. But if this is what I found
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  Speaker 1: most interesting is that it um unless you are what
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  Speaker 1: he called uh super incompetent quote unquote, then you won't
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  Speaker 1: get fired. No, you'll just continue along and basically what
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  Speaker 1: happens is is mediocrity takes hold. Doesn't mean you're awful
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  Speaker 1: and that you're gonna make decisions that will destroy the company,
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  Speaker 1: but your mediocre. And since there isn't a process of
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  Speaker 1: demotion in this country, or maybe there isn't in any country. Uh,
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  Speaker 1: and the corporate structure at least you, you can't be
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  Speaker 1: demoted without it looking like failed, defailed exactly. Yeah, Like
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  Speaker 1: they can't just say, you know what, this is quite right,
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  Speaker 1: you're you're better at your other job, so why don't
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  Speaker 1: we just put you back there? Um, And you'll even
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: make more money doing so well that that's a real
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: solution to the Pewter principle. Is number one, installing a
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  Speaker 1: mechanism where you if it if you're not working out,
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: you get to go back to what you're doing, but
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  Speaker 1: without the stigma failure. The other the other, this is
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  Speaker 1: the one I subscribed to, is UM offering increased compensation
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  Speaker 1: without promotion. I subscribe to that as well. Think about it,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, like most people accept promotions and uh be
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  Speaker 1: based on the increase in salary, right right. I just
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  Speaker 1: really want to manage somebody. Usually I really want to
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  Speaker 1: go make more money. Yes, but those are probably people
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  Speaker 1: who are born managers. Yeah, but I would say the
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  Speaker 1: prestige and the title and the money is even above that. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: the money's at the top, right, Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. Um. So,
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  Speaker 1: if you could, if you could set up your business
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  Speaker 1: in such a way that you are paying people, you're
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  Speaker 1: giving them increased pay, vastly increased pay, like the kind
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  Speaker 1: that you would get if you got a promotion without
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  Speaker 1: promoting them, then you're going to avoid the Pewter principle altogether.
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  Speaker 1: The problem is that that you basically create a a
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  Speaker 1: class structure where there are just people out there who
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  Speaker 1: are you know, executives and that's what they do, and
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  Speaker 1: then you have people out there who are just developers.
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  Speaker 1: It's actually very socialistic in nature, it is, you know,
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  Speaker 1: uh Parkinson. Yeah. So there's another dude, an English historian.
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  Speaker 1: His name is C. Northcote, c Northcote Parkinson, great name,
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  Speaker 1: thank you, uh. And he wrote in the Economist magazine
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  Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty five his first law, which was work
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  Speaker 1: expands so as to fill time available for its completion.
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  Speaker 1: I think most people have heard this, and I think
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  Speaker 1: I might agree with the guy. Oh yeah, if you
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: give somebody a week to do a project, they'll take
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  Speaker 1: a week. If you give them two days, they'll get
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  Speaker 1: it done in two days. Same project too, Yeah exactly. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: so like Murphy's law. Yeah, it's an unnatural law. Exactly. Um.
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  Speaker 1: So yeah, what the white chuck just mentioned that is
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  Speaker 1: because um, one of the there's actually a contrary theory
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: to um, the Peter principle. It was this lazare. Yeah, okay,
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  Speaker 1: that's the he wrote, I'm sorry, an article not a book,
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  Speaker 1: called the Peter principal a theory of decline, and he
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  Speaker 1: put the uh the onus uh for responsibility onto the
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  Speaker 1: employee rather than an incompetent manager who incompetently promote somebody
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  Speaker 1: who shouldn't be right. He said that what happens is
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  Speaker 1: you have your average employee who's looking for that promotion,
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  Speaker 1: probably because they want more money, right. Probably, so they're
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  Speaker 1: they're working, work and work and working like you know,
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  Speaker 1: eighty hour weeks and um, just putting in all this time,
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  Speaker 1: neglecting family, all that. Um. And once that, once that's noticed,
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  Speaker 1: after a certain amount of time, usually they will get
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  Speaker 1: a promotion. The thing is, it's not that's not sustainable. Behavior. Right, Well,
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: that's when the trouble hits. You rest on your laurels
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: once you finally hit that promotion. Yeah, and once you've
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  Speaker 1: gotten the salary. Because again, businesses don't have any kind
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  Speaker 1: of fail safe put into knock you back down. When
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  Speaker 1: you do do that, right, you either get fired or
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: you just keep doing the same job. And most likely
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: you're not gonna get fired, just gonna do a mediocre job.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: But Lazarre Lazier said that it was the employees basically
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  Speaker 1: creating a deception that made people who shouldn't be promoted
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  Speaker 1: promoted because they're being promoted based on their work ethic.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: That was actually an artificial work ethic. Right. That's kind
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  Speaker 1: of cool too. I like all this stuff. I thought
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: you hated this article. Oh, I was just pulling your leg.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: You shouldn't toy with me. It's much it's much more
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: interesting when we talk about it than when I read it.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: To be honest, I agree. I agree, Chuck. We've taken
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: some kind of fluffy articles and done some things we
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: should you know we should do. We should start a podcast.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: What a good you like talking about? I don't even
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: know what a podcast is, dude. Uh, you know, the
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: Peter principal also doesn't just apply to employees, right, it
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: applies to innovation as well, right buddy, Yeah, it's it's
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: the same exact principle. And this was an essay called
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: the Peter Principle of Innovation by Nitton. I've never heard
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: that word. Nitton Bore Bore one car. Yeah, what a
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: great name. And um he basically said, the same thing
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: applies to innovation young he or she um proposed as
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: the a young company has room to innovate, producing new ideas,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: advancing old ideas, and the same thing happens. At some point,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: the innovation turns stagnant. Yeah, but then the reason why
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: it turns stagnant is because eventually you hit a home
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: run and you say, okay, well this one thing we
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: just did just made us a billion dollars, let's keep
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: doing it over and over again, and everything else kind
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: of falls to the wayside. So yeah, innovation becomes stagnant.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: What happens is the people who are still innovators go
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: off found their own company and do the same thing,
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: and it just keeps happening exponentially, this cycle of innovation
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: and stagnation. Like I think Google will probably a good example.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: It's like they've completely mastered search on the Internet at
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: this point, seemingly, and they've innovated their company structure in
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: their company model to a point where people have left
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: Google and started their own company. Sure, I I don't.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: I don't know that it's a lack of innovation, though
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: they do a lot of I don't think they've hit
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: stagnation yet. You don't think so? No, man, They're throwing
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: so much money at new ideas, and um, They've got
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: like the Google Reader, where they're trying to scan every
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: book in existence and right on the web for free.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: There's the Google take Over the Planet project, where in
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: they're all going to put microchips in our brain while
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: we're sleeping. Star Yeah, the Death Star. Yeah. Um, so yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I think they're still innovative now, they are in different directions.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: I think I was probably just thinking of the base
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  Speaker 1: Google basement. But yeah, you're totally Chuck. We were talking
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: about ways to fight the period principle, and there's actually
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: one more way and that's actually, uh the up to
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: the employee what to just have to go get them
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: to uh to do good work. No, No, it's to
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: have the smart and wherewith all to actually say, you
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  Speaker 1: know what, this guy is about to promote me into
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  Speaker 1: my level of incompetence and I'm not gonna do it.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: Think again, buddy, So you can just turn down and promotion. Yeah,
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: but it's so unheard of in the state. It goes
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: back to the money thing. Now, if it was the
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: kind of thing where they would give someone raises with
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: out the promotion, I think people might be more inclined
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: to do that. Well, yeah, he has to go hand
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: in hand with the companion piece, which is living without
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: as much money as you could have did. I'd be
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: all over that more money and less responsibility. I think
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: that the Peter principal actually did speak to my debt
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: because he loved drafting. He loved drawing h V A
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: C aspects right, that was his thing, and actually towards
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: the end of his career he got tired of h
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: V A C. So he went over and learned refrigeration,
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: which was apparently totally different. I would have thought that
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: had fallen and fall into the same category, but I
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: guess not um. But he after like thirty forty years,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: he got bored with h V A C. But he
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: didn't try to move up. He just went to refrigeration.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: And he actually I don't know if he ever turned
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: down a promotion or not, but he made it very
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: well known that he was quite happy doing what he
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: was doing. He did well for himself. Um, and he
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: never became an executive. He he just didn't want to. So,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, it can be done. And I'm wondering just
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: how much of an effect or impact the Peter principal
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: reading the book had on. But yeah, this is called
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Peter's perry, which is basically turning down a promotion. If
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: you don't have the guts to turn out promotion um,
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: or if your spouse would murder you if if he
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: or she found out that you turned down to promotion, UM,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: you can actually self sabotage. Yeah. Do you want to
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: hear a couple of examples that Peter gives, Yeah, I'd
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: love to. One is, um, basically wearing too much Perfumer cologne.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Really nobody wants to be around you like that, you know,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: but it's not so it's not such an obvious uh
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: social miss grace, disgrace. They're gonna say anything I love. Yeah,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: I know what you're gonna say. Go ahead, parking in
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: the company president's reserve parking space. Yeah again, you're you're
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: just showing like I don't really care. I'm not going
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: to look out for you unnecessarily. My favorite one is
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: to kind of subtly give the impression that you lead
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: a morally questionable personal life. Yeah, which we do every
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: week twice a week. Actually, I might have a bit
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: of self sabotage and you think me too, So, Chuck,
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: either one of us want to manage anyone. You know.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: I was avoiding that because you know, I I the Perry.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: I fell on one side. I did I go to
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: the self sabotage side. I don't want to manage anybody either, Chuck. Now,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: I have a hard hard time managing myself and you.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: So there you got Peter principal. Peter principle. It's done.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: If you want to learn more about it, or if
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: you basically want to read the article, Chuck it I
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: just covered a hundred and ten percent. You can go
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: to how stuff works dot com, our beloved website and
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: type Peter principle into the handy search bar, which means,
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: since I just said handy search bar, that it's time
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: for listener mail. Listener mail, Josh, I'm gonna call this
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: one frightening listener mail. Oh yeah, I don't know if
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: you've read this one, because you usually email me and
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: say did you read this one? And I didn't get
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: that on this one, Okay. I I'm writing to share
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: an experience I've had in this related to the Dejabu episode.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: And this is from Drowsy Doug and his Dreadful Dreams
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: in Portland, Oregon, Grove Doug So Doug says, at times
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: when I'm sleeping, my mind wakes in the middle of
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: the night, but my body does not. My eyes open,
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: and I can see the bedroom from a sideways angle,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: the dark shadows of the dresser, of the tree outside
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: the window, of my arms and legs curled up below me.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Yet I cannot move. The frightening thing it's already frightening,
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: to ask me. The frightening thing about this is that
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: though my mind is aware of the reality of my situation,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: it vacillates in and out of the subconscious, creating visions.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: It seem all too real. So he goes on for
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: a minute here, but I'm gonna skipped down one particular moment,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: which stands up my mind is this. I opened my
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: eyes in the middle of the night. I was lying
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: in my bed on my back, paralyzed, watching the image
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: of someone standing at the foot of my bed in
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: a pig suit. What yes, in a costume animal. I
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: was waiting for that, because he actually put that in parentheticals.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: I know that I had my eyes open because I
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: slowly came to consciousness the pig man fading into the
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: darkness like a blurry image, and I hadn't closed my
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: eyes the whole time. It was as if my mind
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: just projected and imagine image onto what I was actually seeing.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Once I even got up from my own bed, walked
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: into the bathroom, and in the darkness, the reflection of
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: my own face was stretched and contorted, and I was
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: bleeding black liquid out of my mouth. But then I
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: woke up and I was fine. So drowsy Doug says, Now,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you get lots of weirdos writing you, but
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: I assure you I'm a pretty normal guy all except
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: for this terrifying waking nightmare syndrome. I don't believe in
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: possession or ghosts or anything like that, so I'm not
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: supposing the supernatural yet. The occurrence of these dreams both
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: fascinates and terrifies me. I've come to recognize the exact
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: creeping feeling of it coming on. Yet by that point
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: there's nothing I can do but try to talk myself
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: in the waking. Is this common? Have you ever heard
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: of this? And why can't they be about Hollywood hotties
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: and not strangers and pig suits? So like, why can't
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: I see Giselle at the Yeah? Some he actually does
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: suffer from a recognized condition, and sadly I don't know
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: what it is. Yeah, it sounds called but when you
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: when your mind wakes before your body does, this is
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: pretty bad conscious of of your surroundings. It is a
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: recognized condition. Seeing first suitors, um is, I don't know
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: what that is. And seeing yourself bleed like black ooze. Yeah,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: it sounds like there's a lot of self loathing. It's frightening.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: Such your arm chair psychotrop Yeah, I literally have my
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: arm on a chair right now. Um. And then I
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: asked him if you've seen the movie Donnie Darko, because
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw that, but it was
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: very reminiscent of that. So a guy in a rabbit
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: suit and Frank the Rabbit, which is one of my
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: favorite movies. That's a great movie, is so well done
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: and so drowsy. Doug, dude, good luck. Wish we could
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: help you. I wish we could help Doug too. If
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: anybody out there has any clues to Doug's mystery, any
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: suggestions on maybe what Doug do eg drink Balerian root
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: key and hope for the best, that kind of thing, um,
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: just email us at stuff podcast at how stuff works
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works dot com. Want more how
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: stuff works, check out our blogs on the how stuff
• 23:23
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• 23:28
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