Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / Exploring the Legendary Tour History of the Mahavishnu Orchestra: 1971-1973 [Episode 255]

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Exploring the Legendary Tour History of the Mahavishnu Orchestra: 1971-1973 [Episode 255] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

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  Speaker 1: We're totally booked rock and roll.
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  Speaker 2: I think I'll leave you.
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  Speaker 1: You're reading little hands this, It's time to rock and roll.
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  Speaker 1: Roll Up, I totally booked. Hey guys, welcome back to
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  Speaker 1: Booked on Rock, the podcast for those about to read
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  Speaker 1: and rock. I'm Eric Senich. Find the podcast onlineup Booked
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  Speaker 1: on rock dot com. Every episode there in both audio
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  Speaker 1: and video. Exclusive video segments from episodes, a blog the
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  Speaker 1: latest rockbook releases, and check out the all new Booked
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  Speaker 1: on Rock store. First time guests to the show, we
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  Speaker 1: have Walter Kuloski here to tell us about his new book,
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  Speaker 1: Mahavish New Memories, The Remarkable Tour History of the legendary
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  Speaker 1: Mahavish New Orchestra. The author of the acclaimed Power, Passion
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  Speaker 1: and Beauty, The Story of the Legendary Mahavish New Orchestra,
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  Speaker 1: Kuloski spent years researching and digging deep behind the scenes
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  Speaker 1: to bring us this remarkable tour history of the Mahavish
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  Speaker 1: New Orchestra. He tells the remarkable tale with the help
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  Speaker 1: of fans, journalists, musicians, and the crew who traveled with
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  Speaker 1: the band. You can find a playlist of Mahavish New
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  Speaker 1: Orchestra in this episode's show notes, Thanks for being here.
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  Speaker 2: Walter, thank you Eric, and thank you for having me
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  Speaker 2: on board.
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  Speaker 1: Prior to this book, you released Power Passion and Beauty,
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  Speaker 1: the Story of the legendary Mahavish New Orchestra, that was
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  Speaker 1: August of twenty twenty four. It's an in depth looked
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  Speaker 1: at the band, but can you give those listening not
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  Speaker 1: familiar with the band's history a brief overview? How and
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  Speaker 1: where did they form? The first incarnation had a short
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  Speaker 1: but very influential run before some lineup changes.
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  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, First, I want to go back to a
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  Speaker 2: Power Passion and Beauty. What I released in twenty twenty
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  Speaker 2: four was sort of a print on demand version of
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  Speaker 2: the book, and it was updated. The original book came
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  Speaker 2: out way back in two thousand and six, okay, and
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  Speaker 2: it has sold ever since. There's a lot of Mahavish
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  Speaker 2: New fans out there, a lot of fans at are
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  Speaker 2: Discovery Mavish New and that book, Power Passion and Beauty.
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  Speaker 2: It's not necessary to purchase that book to enjoy my
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  Speaker 2: new book, Mavis New Memories, but it wouldn't be a
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  Speaker 2: bad idea because it gives you a lot of background
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  Speaker 2: of the band as far as I'm concerned. I first
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  Speaker 2: became aware of the band back in nineteen seventy three.
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  Speaker 2: There was a show on ABC Television on Friday nights
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  Speaker 2: called in Concert from eleven thirty to one o'clock, and
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  Speaker 2: it was broadcast in stereo over your local stations. What
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  Speaker 2: a concept is the first time and you hope that
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  Speaker 2: the TV picture matched what youured out of your radio.
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  Speaker 2: It generally did not, but you could record the show
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  Speaker 2: and you'd have really good audio. So I was watching
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  Speaker 2: the show one night, and I was pretty bored, to
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  Speaker 2: be honest with It wasn't one of the better shows
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  Speaker 2: for me. And around twenty minutes to one o'clock, this
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  Speaker 2: band comes on, and MY first reaction is, what the
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  Speaker 2: hell is this? Because I see a guitar that has
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  Speaker 2: two necks, and the guy playing it's all dressed in
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  Speaker 2: white and he has very short hair. Is a violin player,
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  Speaker 2: which I wasn't really used to in rock music at
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  Speaker 2: that time. The bass player had a see through bass.
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  Speaker 2: It was just the visual of it was stunning right away,
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  Speaker 2: even though I only had a twelve inch black and
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  Speaker 2: white TV set. Then Eric they started playing and I
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  Speaker 2: didn't understand what I was hearing, but somehow it was
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  Speaker 2: attracting me and in fact capturing me. You know. Later
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  Speaker 2: I would learn that they were playing different time signatures
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  Speaker 2: at the same time, things you just didn't hear in
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  Speaker 2: jazz actually that you just didn't hear in rock music.
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  Speaker 2: And this combination prevented me from sleeping that night. Could
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  Speaker 2: not sleep. The next day, I woke up, I went
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  Speaker 2: to the local record store and I found a Bird
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  Speaker 2: of Fire, which was my Vision New's second album. I
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  Speaker 2: didn't even know they had a first album. I would say,
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  Speaker 2: within a month of listening to that music, I swore
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  Speaker 2: off all my rock music, and I decided that I'm
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  Speaker 2: going to try to find out more about this music.
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  Speaker 2: We now call it jazz rock fusion. It didn't have
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  Speaker 2: a name back then yet. Jazz rock fusion is sort
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  Speaker 2: of a marketing name. And I learned about Miles Davis
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  Speaker 2: this way, and John Coltrane and all the people that
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  Speaker 2: had come before that had served as precursors to this
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  Speaker 2: type of music. Tony Williams's lifetime, which was event that
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  Speaker 2: John was in an elite sixties sort of an offshoot
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  Speaker 2: of Miles in a way. Because of the drummer Tony Williams. Eventually,
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  Speaker 2: of course, I repurchased all my rock records as CDs
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  Speaker 2: many years later, when I realized there's no need to
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  Speaker 2: get rid of some music just because I like some
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  Speaker 2: other music, and a lot of that stuff was great.
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  Speaker 2: It's best to be a well rounded listener. But Marvis
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  Speaker 2: knew for me provided sort of a guideline for the
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  Speaker 2: type of music that I was going to listen to
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  Speaker 2: at least for the next ten years, and only listen
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  Speaker 2: to that music for the next ten years.
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  Speaker 1: Full transparency, I have just started listening to this band
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  Speaker 1: because of the book. I mean, honestly, I had seen
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  Speaker 1: the name Mahavish New Orchestra over the years and just
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  Speaker 1: never listen to him. I just one, It's kind of
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  Speaker 1: a funny name, you know, and I've heard so much
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  Speaker 1: about him. That's one of the reasons I love doing
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  Speaker 1: the show is to learn about these bands that I
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  Speaker 1: really don't know much about. And I had the same
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  Speaker 1: reaction as you did in nineteen seventy three, like what
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  Speaker 1: am I listening to? I mean, it blew me away,
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  Speaker 1: But also what am I listening to? Whatever it is,
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  Speaker 1: I can't stop listening. I pulled and thanks to Spotify,
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  Speaker 1: I was able to sample so much of this. But
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  Speaker 1: some of this stuff gets really cool, like on the
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  Speaker 1: way home to Earth, what is McLoughlin doing there? Is
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  Speaker 1: it McLaughlin? I've heard people ways.
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  Speaker 2: Well, there's three questions there, even though you don't know
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  Speaker 2: this three.
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  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm so excited to talk about this band.
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  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, it just warms my heart that
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  Speaker 2: the book made you go listen to some music, So
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  Speaker 2: that's that's fantastic. And one of the catchphrases that I
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  Speaker 2: use is that this is a book for those that
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  Speaker 2: saw the Mavish New Orchestra live and in person, and
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  Speaker 2: for those that wish they had. I'm going to say
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  Speaker 2: about twenty five percent of the people that read my
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  Speaker 2: books on this type of music are young people because
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  Speaker 2: a lot of them, especially musicians, they test their metal
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  Speaker 2: with this music. Even young pre teenagers in schools of
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  Speaker 2: rock all over the world play Mavish New music, which
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  Speaker 2: is really bizarre. If you ask me, I forgot the
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  Speaker 2: question because I was aswing the others.
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  Speaker 1: But well it's McLauchlin, McLoughlin.
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  Speaker 2: That's question number two. It is both ye know, John
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  Speaker 2: pronounces his name McLoughlin when he's in the United States
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  Speaker 2: because he believes that's how people pronounce it. So if
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  Speaker 2: you hear him sometimes at the end of concerts, thank you,
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  Speaker 2: and I'm John McLoughlin. Other places around the world, he
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  Speaker 2: might say I'm John McLaughlin. Depends on where he is
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  Speaker 2: I asked him. It's an argument that goes on forever
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  Speaker 2: because it's pronounced differently at different times. Now, the third question.
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  Speaker 1: Is I forgot what the third question on.
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  Speaker 2: The way Well, there's a lot to cover on the
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  Speaker 2: way home to Earth.
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  Speaker 1: Oh God, yes, what it's doing there.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you what he's doing. But that is
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  Speaker 2: the version of the obvious new orchestra that is not
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  Speaker 2: in this book. So you have to remember there's four
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  Speaker 2: different versions, really of this orchestra, and I cover the
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  Speaker 2: first version in nineteen seventy one, two, nineteen seventy three,
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  Speaker 2: which is the really what i'd say is the legendary
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  Speaker 2: part of the band because it was the first band.
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  Speaker 2: And you've seen the book. It's not a small book.
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  Speaker 2: It's five hundred and forty pages in a six nine book,
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  Speaker 2: one hundred and thirty five thousand words. I cannot imagine
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  Speaker 2: how much time it would have taken me to write
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  Speaker 2: about the second version, the third version, in the fourth version,
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  Speaker 2: the book would be two thousand pages. If I remember,
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  Speaker 2: he's sort of using some form of ring modulator on
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  Speaker 2: that tune. And that tune from that album Visions of
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  Speaker 2: the Emerald Beyond was sort of a precursor to directions
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  Speaker 2: they would take in the next album called Inner Worlds,
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  Speaker 2: in which they used more I don't want to say tricks,
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  Speaker 2: but sound effects, and they were pushing their instruments and
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  Speaker 2: synthesizers and everything they could as far as you possibly could,
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  Speaker 2: sometimes past good taste, you know, to me, I love
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  Speaker 2: that album, but can listen to it once a year
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  Speaker 2: because some of it offends me. Other parts of it
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  Speaker 2: are unbelievable. When people generally talk about the Movious New
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  Speaker 2: Orchestra generally talk they're talking about the first version that
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  Speaker 2: said I think you tend to like. Let's say you
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  Speaker 2: pick an artist John McLoughlin for instance. McLoughlin for instance.
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  Speaker 1: Depending on where people are listening, we can do we
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  Speaker 1: can do both right.
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  Speaker 2: And it also depends on the first time that you
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  Speaker 2: hear him. If you heard Jah mcglofflin in the second
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  Speaker 2: Mahavish New Orchestra. First, that would be your favorite version
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  Speaker 2: of the orchestra, which seems to me to be pretty reasonable.
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  Speaker 2: If you heard him in the Guitar Trio in nineteen
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  Speaker 2: eighty one, that might be your favorite type of John mcgloffin,
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  Speaker 2: And you know, so forth and so on. So I
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  Speaker 2: once listed, I said, if you had five top fusion bands,
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  Speaker 2: the top two for me would be Mavish New one
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  Speaker 2: and Mavish New two, and then these other great bands afterwards.
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  Speaker 2: That's how I would rate it. But for reasons of
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  Speaker 2: space and also this concept of you can only be
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  Speaker 2: new once, Eric, you can only be new once, and
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  Speaker 2: this applies to everything, and that's why I chose to
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  Speaker 2: feature nineteen seventy one through nineteen seventy three in this book.
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  Speaker 1: Well, let's focus on that. So the early lineup, that
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  Speaker 1: first lineup, Billy Covm on drums, Jon Hammer on keyboard,
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  Speaker 1: Jerry Goodman is on electric violin, and then Rick Laird,
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  Speaker 1: who I believe is the only member who has passed right,
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  Speaker 1: I think all of the other.
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  Speaker 2: That's correct, That is correct. He passed one in July fourth,
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  Speaker 2: three years ago. I get a basis not long. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: he was the basis and he is given credit for
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  Speaker 2: sort of holding everything together because the band itself they
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  Speaker 2: were traveling to space, if you want to put it
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  Speaker 2: in a simple way, and he needed to rain them
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  Speaker 2: in and that was his job on bass, and so
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  Speaker 2: he did that. He was actually quite a virtual also player,
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  Speaker 2: But not until the end of their run, when things
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  Speaker 2: were running down, did he start displaying that generally. You know,
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  Speaker 2: he's a timekeeper, kept the bottom for the band. And
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  Speaker 2: if you listen to a lot of great bass players,
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  Speaker 2: they say it was one of the most underrated players
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  Speaker 2: from that time period, simply because he knew what had
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  Speaker 2: to be done for that band and he did it.
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  Speaker 1: I am fascinated with this sound of the band, as
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  Speaker 1: you refer to it as being four D. Where did
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  Speaker 1: the idea of the electric violin come to play? What
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  Speaker 1: was the inspiration? Was it all John McLoughlin's idea to
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  Speaker 1: come up with this sound?
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  Speaker 2: It was his idea to have it in his band.
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  Speaker 2: But you know, they'd been electric violin players around the
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  Speaker 2: jazz violin players. Now combining the two of jazz and rock,
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  Speaker 2: that was a relatively newish thing. But we had John
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  Speaker 2: Luponti out of France who was doing this with Frank
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  Speaker 2: Zapp and the Mothers, and Jerry Goodman himself was in
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  Speaker 2: a band which you know, in hindsight now i'd call
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  Speaker 2: a jazz rock folk band called the Flock out of Chicago.
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  Speaker 2: But John always wanted the violin, you know, in this band,
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  Speaker 2: and he heard a record from the Flock and was
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  Speaker 2: Jerry Goodman and he wanted him to be in the band,
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  Speaker 2: and that's how that became a thing.
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  Speaker 1: Billy Cobham was he was with Miles Davis.
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  Speaker 2: He recorded with him, as John McLoughlin had, but he
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  Speaker 2: was most known at that time for a couple of gigs.
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  Speaker 2: One he was in Horace Silver's band, Our Silver Jazz Penis,
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  Speaker 2: and then he was in another group called Dreams with
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  Speaker 2: the Brecker Brothers and others, and this was sort of,
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  Speaker 2: you know, a jazz rock band as well. But John
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: met him through the Miles Davis connection, probably for the
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: recording sessions of Tribute to Jack Johnson, very famous Miles
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  Speaker 2: Davis album that really featured John mcgloughlin and Billy Cobham
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  Speaker 2: going at it. And this is the time they became
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  Speaker 2: friends and started jamming, just the two of them sort
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  Speaker 2: of laying the foundation for what would become the Mavish
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  Speaker 2: New Orchestra.
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  Speaker 1: There's some blues in there, some hard rock, I suppose
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  Speaker 1: you get. There's a little bit of everything in there.
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  Speaker 1: That's why I'm wondering where these guys came from and
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  Speaker 1: maybe is it just a melting pot of sounds of influences,
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  Speaker 1: you know the bands that they played in beforehand.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think it's both, and it's truly an international band.
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  Speaker 2: You know, Billy basically from Panama at least family was
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  Speaker 2: from Panama, Jon Hammer from Czechoslovakia, Regulad from England, did
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  Speaker 2: Gerry Goodman us John McLoughlin from England as well. So
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  Speaker 2: you sort of had this pan spam global band together.
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  Speaker 1: Laired from Ireland, yes, right.
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  Speaker 2: Regular from Ireland, and so this got combined with really
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: New York City. The scene was really happening there in
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  Speaker 2: New York City, and that's where these guys all connected.
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  Speaker 2: You know, Jan Hamer had played in in you know,
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: jam with Jimmy Hendricks himself, so he was around it
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: from Berkeley. Regulaired to been at Berkeley, and so when
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: they all met in New York there's an album ahead
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  Speaker 2: of time called My Goal Is Beyond that John did
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  Speaker 2: and Jerry Goodman and Billy Kabner are on that, and
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  Speaker 2: that's when John first played with Jerry. He had played
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  Speaker 2: with Rick but had never played with Leon. And so,
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: you know, lots of times I think back to my
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: youth and we used to have garage and generally what
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: a garage band was a whole bunch of friends got
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: together and formed a band. They ended up breaking up
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: and hating each other at the end. That's basically a
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: garage band. You know. With Maa Vishnu was sort of
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  Speaker 2: the opposite. You got a whole bunch of players together
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  Speaker 2: that didn't really know each other. And then you know this,
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: Stu created the combination that became this this music. They
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: all added to it in the jazz tradition. Now people
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: will argue that this was a rock band, and they're right,
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: and I would argue it to jazz band, and I'm
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: right too. And that's what set it apart was the improvisation,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: which sort of became a little bit of a problem
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  Speaker 2: a couple of years later. Because the band was making
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: a lot of money. They were successful, and jazz bands
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: generally didn't experience that. So when that started happening, you know,
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  Speaker 2: who do you credit the compositions to When everybody's improvising
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  Speaker 2: on a melody that was provided by John mcgloughlin, So
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: you know, some unrest with a couple of the members,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: and you know that sort of spelled the end of
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: the of the first version. But even Jan Hamer said,
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  Speaker 2: even when these things were, when they were having difficulties
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: on stage, they had a great band and for the
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: most part it was one or two exceptions. For the
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: most part, any troubles weren't hurt on stage. You know,
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  Speaker 2: they had a good band. And Jan said, we may
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: as well use.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: It Boo podcasts. We'll be back after this. Surely you
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: can't be serious.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: I am serious, and don't call me.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Surely Mahavish New Orchestra. For those who aren't familiar with
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: the band, just learning about them, I'm sure they're wondering.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: They're probably saying. Eric asked the question, what is behind that?
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  Speaker 1: I think John came up with that, right, John McLoughlin.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Actually his guru Shreechin Moy did it. And the
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: term itself roughly means creator and preserver. That's what it
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: means but mavish new in a whole it means everything.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: You know. It's one of those vague things. But creator
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: and preserver is the definition I tend to use now.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: The band is considered the spiritual band, and this wasn't
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: so unusual. You have to remember at the time the
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Beatles and other musicians were seeking out gurus and whatnot,
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: but not all the members were into this, and a
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: lot of fans assumed they were, and this could cause
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: some problems. But if you've listened to the band thinking
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: about spirituality, and I'm not talking about religion, I'm talking
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: about spirituality, which I think is a different thing. You
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  Speaker 2: can hear that in the music. There's no doubt it soars.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: It has a great drama to it. It's serene at times.
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  Speaker 2: And my feeling was, even if some of the members
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: were in the band that were in the band think
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  Speaker 2: it was spiritual, that they were playing spiritual music, they were,
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: at least to my years and too many other years.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: The album covers themselves would have an aphorism a poem
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: I Streechin Moy on the back of them, and so
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  Speaker 2: it made everything seem, as I said before, very spiritual,
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  Speaker 2: but not everybody was in it for that, but you know,
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: some of the music, even on the later versions of
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Mavius knew. I mean you could envision that being played
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: in a temple, a church, a mosque, because that's where
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: it took you. It took you to some other plane
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: of the band. Both Rick and John were the most
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: spiritual of the bunch.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: So let's get to the book covers the live history
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: of that original lineup seventy one to seventy three. And
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: you say in the introduction that this band would put
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: you through a physical and emotional ringer if you saw
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: them live. What did you mean by that?
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: You've read the book, which is great, and you've read
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: some people say that they would after the concert, they'd
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: be sweating. They would walk out of the place silently
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: because there wasn't as much energy as was being put
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: out by the band, and there was a wave of it.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Just imagine a hurricane coming out at you. But through sound,
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: it could be very punishing to listen to. Sometimes punishment
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: is pleasurable. I don't want to go off in the
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: other areas. But you experienced this with the band, and
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: you know, I've written so much about John mcgloughlin and
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: the mobviious New Orchestra over the years and this type
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: of music in particular. But what I realized was I
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: never wrote about in detail about what they were most
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: famous for, and that was the live performance. What was
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: it like to see Mavishnu live? Because that really you
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: hear it from musicians, you heard from people that worked
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: with them, you hear it from fans in this book,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: especially the first year or so when they were still
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: a surprise, so they would open for some band and
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: it's as if the headliner shouldn't even come out afterwards,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: because what else is there to listen to? Is Carlos
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: Santana explains in the book that you know, obvious New
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: played and everyone left, even though they weren't the headline band.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: Now what John has always said, that was not his intention,
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: but it just sort of happened. But all these musicians,
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: one of the ways I can put it, we're talking
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: about this spirituality and this higher meaning. They were in
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: your face, Eric. I mean, first of all, they were
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: terribly loud, and a couple of the members would regret
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: that later with hearing issues. Right, they were loud, and
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: all the old fogies that talked about rock music being
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: too loud. They were correct, But Herbie Hancock said one
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: time and he went to go see Tony Williams also
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: in Tony Women's Lifetime, also very loud band, and he
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: knew it wasn't good for his hearing, but he stayed anyway.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: And you were just you were so drawn into this
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: music and it was new music that you that you
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: were hearing. That these live performances they could either draw
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: you in or they could scare the shit out of
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: you and people and people literally ran out of theaters,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: they ran out of venues. Jan Hammer has said to
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: me that they used to laugh, you know when this
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: would happen. Now, this book, I talk about every single concert,
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: and when you do a book like this, the most
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: difficult thing is to try to take a different approach
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: to two hundred and fifty some odd concerts. That's very
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: difficult to do. I did my best. But you have
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: situations where bands that are opening for them or following
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: them have either felt like they wanted to fall into
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: a crack in the world or they said, boy, these
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: guys are great, we need to up our game. I'll
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: give you an example of that would be Yes you
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: know prog rock group. Yes, one of their favorite bands
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: was the Maviush New Orchestra. They appeared on a few
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: bills with them, and they would watch them rehearse and
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: play and say we got to get better return it forever.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: A very famous jazz fusion band led by Chick Rea
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: felt the same way. He and Stanley Clark would see
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: a Mavish New concert and say, this is the direction
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: that we have to go into. But imagine back Eric
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: in the days and I don't know how well verst
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: you are in jazz heroes and Oscar Peterson. Are you
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: familiar with Oscar Peterson as.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: A bad name? I don't know. I mean I know
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: the big ones, I know the big ones.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so he's a great, big, famous jazz piano player,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: but of the old school. He would appear on the
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: same bill as the maviush New Orchestra. Imagine that. So
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: when the Mavius New Orchestra in this story in the
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: book about this, they hit their first note and people
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: ran out of the place, you know, because it was
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: so loud. They had no concept of what was happening
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: because they were there for Oscar Peterson, who was you know,
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: one of the world's greatest piano players in that same bill.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: By the way, just to give you an idea how
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: eclectic things were back then, was the Steve Miller Band.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: So it's Oscar Peterson, the Mahavish New Orchestra and the
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Steve Miller Band all on the same bill. Unheard of today,
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: But people were a little more open to music back then.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Even the ones that ran away, they just hung out
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: outside and came back in. Those that still had their hearing,
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: they came back in to see Oscar Steve Millen.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: That might be what because you said only Maha Vishnu
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: could only exist in its time, Is that what you meant?
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: Well, that's right. It's time included beyond just what we
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: were hearing on stage. It had to do with the
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: Vietnam War. It had to do with energy crisis. It
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: had to do with colleges unrested at colleges. It had
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: to do with electronics entering music. I mean a few
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: years before that, Bob Dylan had turned electric and that
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: was controversial. And believe me, this was controversial in jazz
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: music as well. You know, do you have to be
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: so loud? I know, one of the one of the
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: critics talked about how the band had Indian influences, but
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: he didn't really hear the Indian influence, and he said,
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: the only thing that this music has in common with
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: India is that maybe they can hear it there. That's
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: you know, that's how loud the band was. Later on,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: by the way, I heard some louder bands, bands that
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: were louder than others, believe it or not, but they
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: would go into some venues which I talked about, and
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: they would be people inside that were afraid pieces of
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: the ceiling were going to fall down, or the movie
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: screen that was in the place was going to fall
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: down because it was so loud. But that's not the
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: only thing. The other thing is the Indian influences. We
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: talked about the rock music, the poly rhythms, the exploration
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: going on, and that I've heard. Let's say we can
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: pick a tune Meeting of the Spirits, which was off
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: the Inner Mounting Flame, the first Mobish New album. I've
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: heard one hundred and fifty different versions of that tune.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: They're all different, and this is because of the jazz element,
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: or the sound of the hall, or somebody has an
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: extended solo. That night, that they normally don't have. So
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: you know, a seven minute song on the record, it
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: can be twenty minutes in concert.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you get a bit of a jam band
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: feel to some of these, especially the live stuff?
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: That's right, So I would say the jam band gets
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: a bit of my Vishnu feel they followed so many
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: years later exactly. But a lot of these bands and
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: that we hear today, the jam band banders and whatnot.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: They are influenced by this type of music, even if
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: they don't know it. Now. One of the remarkable things
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: about Mavius New is that there are so many tribute bands, Eric,
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: and I assure you there aren't nearly as many tribute
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: bands for any other jazz rock band, or fusion band
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: or jazz band or few rock bands for that matter.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: And all you have to do is go on YouTube
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: and you will see twenty thirty forty fifty different bands
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: playing Mavis New music. As I said at the beginning,
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: to test their metal and Mavish who tested themselves, and
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: to a certain degree, maybe toward the end, you know,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: you sort of get a sense of burning out, perhaps
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: because you can only push yourself so far. And this
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: particular band of course, was exhausted, as I go over
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: in the book, exhausted because they just had too many concerts.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: They didn't have enough breaks. Elliott Sears, who was their
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: road manager, called it one long, two and a half
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: year tour. That is not the way it was supposed
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: to happen. You know, rock bands back then would play
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: for three months, take six months off to recorde an album,
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: get rest, then go back out in the road. They
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: never did that, and when they were learning new pieces,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: they did it at soundcheck. Their manager just believed they
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: needed to get out Eric. I do need to mention
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: a couple other things about the book that I'm very
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: happy with. First, the ford is written by the great
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: musician Gary Husband, who is a Marvish New fanatic, but
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: I'm going to call him a scholar about Mavish New
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: music and John McLoughlin music in general. And he wrote
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: the forward to the book, and I'm very honored that
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Colin Harper, who is a well known European journalist music
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: journalist across several genres, but has written about Mavish New
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: a lot. He's very you know, he has a lot
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: of knowledge in this area and he was involved in
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: the editing. In fact, just the Mate is the master
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: editor of the book, so I'm very happy that they're
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: involved in this book as well.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Then you've gotten some great reviews. Steve Rosen sid Smith
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: for Prog magazine said some great things about it. Fame
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: jazz critic Brett believe it's pronounced primac premac.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: Walter should be proud of this work. This is an
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: excellent book and an excellent read and very important, very
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: important documentation. I'm glad he did it. Book on Rock podcast.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: We'll be back after this, I mean.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Out come out wherever you are.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: The very first show is interesting. You talk about interesting
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: artists that Mahavish who played with I just interviewed John
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: Lee Hooker Junior. So we were going back and forth
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: and I said gently, you know, I'm just reading a
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: book on Mahavis New Orchestra, and your dad was the
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: I think he was the headliner. New York City, July
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: twenty first, nineteen seventy one. A couple college students recorded
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: summer most of the show with a portable cassette record
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: or both shared their experience from that night in the book.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: They knew they were watching something special. The band's transformation
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: happens right during that first show.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they were a little ragged to begin with. I
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: mean they just got together. John says. By the second
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: set they were humming and I think I used the
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: phrase and they never looked back or something of that nature.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: They went into overdrive. I'm sorry, I never shifted back
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: after that time, because that's really John mcgloughin really puts
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: a lot of emphasis on live performance. And every time
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: you perform live, whether it's in front of one person,
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: fifty or fifty thousand, it is a performance. And the
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: way that band looked at rehearsal, it was a concert.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: And so they pushed each other even in rehearsal, and
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: this was really a major part of that band. Now.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I mean, I'm a fanatic, so I would put
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: on a modish new album and I'll say, I am
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: only going to listen to Rick Laird this entire album.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: This listen and you learn things that you never noticed
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: before when you do that, and you sort of get
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: all the elements together. When I've listened to hundreds of recordings,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: some of the recordings mostly from soundboards and what not,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: and some of them are defective, and so you don't
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: hear one of the instruments as much, but this allows
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: you to hear the others more and you say, wow,
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: I never realized that Rick was playing, for instance, chords
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: on this tune and other times, because I've contacted people
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: that were there hear You hear these concert tapes and
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: you say, something's going on here, What the heck is
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: going on here? This isn't normal this section. And I'll
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: talk to Elliott and he says, well, that's because when
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: John went to go look for his acoustic guitar, we
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: forgot to put it out there, and so the band
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: is vamping while they try to get the guitar, which
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: they never got out there. But that vamping section is
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: interesting to listen to. And now you can go. I
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: think that concert is on YouTube. You can go and listen.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: You said, oh, that's what was going on here, or
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: you hear some technical difficulties, and so I tried to
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: find out what was going on at the time. A
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: lot of this has to do with the rigors of
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: the road in being a musician at the time. I
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: also interview a lot of people, road crew people, people
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: that work with the band, people that did light shows
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: for them. What was it like to be part of
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: this and lots and lots of fans. And that's the
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: thing that I want people to understand. This is why
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: I call the book Mobbish through Memories. And you've read
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: the recollections of kids that just had their life changed.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: Some kids, maybe not all kids, some adults too. They
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: had their life changed by this concert. And what's great
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: by these concerts. And what's great is to read what
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: became of those people. A lot of them became artists,
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: well known artists who became artists, musicians, teachers, you know,
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: all sorts of things across the board. And that's really
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: my favorite part of the book is to through the
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: ears and eyes of those people that were at those shows.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: They give you the flavor of what it was like.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: You know, some people saw McLoughlin as a god, which
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: I don't think is not healthy, but they did. You know,
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: some people started as a guru, and some people, of course,
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: they had their favorite person in the band. A lot
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: of people loved Billy Cobblem or Jerry Goodman, and they'll
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: argue that those were the people that made the band. Really,
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: but you had three main purveyors of the melody in
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: this band. You had Jan Hamer, Jerry Goodman and John McLoughlin,
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: and they all pushed the boundaries of their instruments, every
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: one of them, and of course Billy Cotton did as
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: a drummer too. These guys were instrumental in changing the
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: way people looked at those instruments.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: That's where I want to go next. John McClean was
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: the band's manager, engineer, personal assistant, tour accountant. I mean,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: he was a jack of all trades for the band.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: And the tensions that developed within the band members as
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: far as getting the spotlight on stage, I mean, how
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: much of that was true? Because he says right from
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: the start the biggest challenge in those early gigs was
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: that they were all trying to outperform each other. How
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: were they able to handle that?
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Jock was never the manager, but he definitely was
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: the sound engineer at the beginning and the road crew
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: chief at the very beginning. Well, they had to get
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: their act together after a while, you know, as it
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: became more popular, they had to hire more road crew
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: and Elliott Sears became the sound engineer. But to be honest,
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: especially as an opening band back in those early days,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: you didn't have much say on what the audio was
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: going on into the hall. It was mostly for the
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: league bands, And in fact I talked about the Kinks
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: in there, who they were always screwing with everybody else
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: and making sure their sound was good and making sure
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: allegedly allegedly that the sound from the other bands was crap.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: You know, those are some of the battles you had
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: to face. The key was trying to get the best
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: sound that you could. When they became more popular, Dinky
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: Dawson came in with this great sound system that the
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: band could now afford, and he was doing the shows
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: along with Elliott, and he got a much more balanced sound.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: It doesn't mean you didn't run into problems because you
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: would go into huge auditoriums and the sound would just
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: be bouncing off the walls. It would be so muddy.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: The way I describe that type of stuff or the
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: way I think about that in a way, I also
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: described a part when they had a couple probably their
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: worst concerts, when they weren't getting along. Even when the
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: sound is bad, even when one of the players is off,
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: even when they're not speaking to each other, Listening to
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: the turmoil is interesting I like listening to the struggle
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: of a jazz player. When you see John mcgloughiner hear
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: him playing, lots of times critics will say, geez, you
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: know he's you know, it's dissonant, it's it's out there.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: You know, he doesn't have to sound under control. They
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: don't understand Mavis new Eric Okay, because marvious New was
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: really about battling with your limitations. And so John is
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: such a skilled player, and they all were and all
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: are that are still with us, that would they would
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: try to push against those limitations every night. And sometimes
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: it's a hit, sometimes it's a miss. Most of the
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: times it was a hit. But when you have players
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: like that, you have many high moments during a show,
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: and hopefully during each tune, you know they reach, you know,
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: an apex like this tune can't go any further. I
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: once read somebody talked about the intensity of my Vishnu,
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: about how bands generally they start slow and they they
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: reach a certain intensity, and he described my Vishn who
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: was starting at the intensity and then going from there,
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: and I think that's a pretty good description.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Again, going back to the jam band thing, I wonder
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: how much of a fan guys like Jerry Garcia were
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: and I think Jerry was on a bill with them
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: in the book. You mentioned that, But that's the similar
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: to the jamband thing of on any given night, something
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: could happen, some magic could happen, but on any given
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: night it made just fall flat.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot too, Eric, depends upon the listener. There's
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: a two way communication going on here between the player
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: and the listener, and you could be in a group
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: of five thousand people, but that musician, the communication is
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: just going to one person at the time, and every
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: person is hearing it slightly differently. So I'm I'm honored
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: and this I'm honored to hear that, to hear a
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: person struggle, or maybe they're not struggling. They're so facillo
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: that they can play anything, and they play it casually,
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: but it touches your heart some way or your mind.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: And I'm honored during those nights, and it can happen anytime,
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: any night, any place. There are these very special moments
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: that become ingrained in your brain. We have quite a
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: few people in there in this book, and not I
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: didn't use this for all of these stories, but that
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: told me that they saw a Movist New Orchestra, and
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: in a way it's sort of ruined them a bit
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: because they've never found anything as good again. It's like
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: you're in a search for the perfect pizza slice that
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: you're hav in Greenwich Village in nineteen eighty one, which
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: I still am. It's a version of that, or the
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: best Chinese food you ever had. You want to match
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: that in your life in this music. And ironically, as
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: virtuoso as these players were after Mavish, they were better players.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: Naturally they were. They had to be better players. They
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: were more experienced. But it was that combination, as you
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: had mentioned earlier, at that time and in that place
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: and in the place listeners were, that made all the
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: difference in the world for the Mavish New Orchestra.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: Booked on rock podcasts, We'll be back after.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: This now might be a dandy town for that recess.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: Did they have a whole set list planned out or
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: did they just decide, let's start with this song, let's
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: start with these few songs.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: They did have it planed out, and every once in
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: a while they they'd change it up. In the early days,
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: not at the earliest earliest days, but in the early
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: days when they started going on tour, Meeting the Spirits
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: almost always opened up right with the gong?
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Uh No, is that the one?
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: Well the gong? The gong was used for Birds of Fire,
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: right however, uh, you know, as the band proceeded, sometimes
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Billy would use it for Meeting of the Spirits, not
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: at the beginning, but as the bandit because even that
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: gong sort of set a mood for the crowd, and
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: so maybe that gong was used for the opening piece,
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: you know, the opening piece would be just a couple
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: of different pieces really be Birds of Fire or Meeting
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: of the Spirits as a general rule. When I found
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: that that didn't take place, I note that in the book.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: So you don't have to be a mobvioush New fanatic
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: to enjoy this book. But there's tons of stuff in there.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: If you're a fanatic, you know they would care about
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: what you just asked. You know, is a gong played
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: on any of the song maybe somebody else wouldn't. But
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: you know, I found out that they didn't always have
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: the moment of silence, which they used to open up
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: every show with. And I found this out from Elliott.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: I just thought that was the thing from the beginning,
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: but it was not. It was one of Jerry's friends
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: passed away and the cons After that, John had the
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: moment of silence and then decided to continue that way
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: through the rest of the life of the band, even
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: though it would be interrupted many times by cat calls
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: because many people's drugs were just hitting in. You know,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: they had timed it. They had timed it from McLoughlin
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: in Mavish news set, so it was hard to keep
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: them quiet. And of course on mixed bills, not everybody
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: was there to see mabrus news, so sometimes you know,
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: they might start this whistle scream out and stuff like that.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: There's one story where John I think this was at
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: Yale and he just really got upset because they weren't
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: giving him any moment of silence at all, you know, nothing.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: A minute goes by, two minutes go by, three minutes,
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: four minutes, five minutes go by, and they're still having
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: their moment of silence because the crowd won't shut up.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: And one of my questions that's in the book.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was gonna he was gonna make them
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: and this night he decided, I'm gonna make him wait
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: because some nights they might scream out, but they'll play.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: But this night he's going to make him way. And
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: I cannot remember the name of the person who narrated
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: the story for me there, but he said, and then
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: there was a split second of silence, just a split second,
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: and then they went into it. And he said, the
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: rush that went through the crowd when that happen was
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: just amazing.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about when the band breaks really is with
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: a specific tour. You're writing the book quote. Prior to
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: mega mergers and before the digital age came and swallowed everything,
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: there were still visionaries who believed in the artist and
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: the art. Great music, if promoted the right way, could
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: be heard in lots of tickets and record albums could
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: be sold. One of those visionaries was Bruce Lundvall. So
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: tell us who Bruce is and how he's he able
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: to help promote the band and break the band with
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: a tour with Blue Oyster Cult opening for the Birds.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: Well, he was a record executive and the idea that
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: he came up with, which sounds like such common sense
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: to us now, is you promote different times types of
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: music in different types of ways. Believe it or not,
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: they didn't do that before. If you saw an ad
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: for records, the opera stars and the jazz stars and
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: the rock and rollers, they'd all be advertised the same way.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: There was no distinction between the genres. Bruce Lumbrell said, hey,
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: listen to this rock music, in this case jazz rock music.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: And he said, there has to be a better way
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: to promote this band. They're not going to get any
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: radio airtime because the tunes are way too long, there
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: are no vocals and whatnot. Let's put them together with
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: some other bands that he wanted to push and put
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: him out on college tours. So you have the first
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: big college tour of the mobvious New Orchestra and they're
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: on a triple bill in nineteen seventy one with Bluoys
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: to Cult and the Birds. The Birds were the headliners,
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: of course, and they were the big band, and they
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: were the draw, and that's what at the beginning people
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: were paying attention to. You know, most people were there
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: for the Birds still, but toward the end of that tour,
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: some of the people that had seen malevis Snewen earlier
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: in the tour they came and started showing up, so
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: they became bigger and bigger part of the crowd. Bloyer's
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: The Cult is one of the bands who I used
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: to call him the poor man's Black Sabbath. I always
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: enjoyed Blue to still do the early stuff, the rough stuff.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: I quote some of the guys in the book, I
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: mean they were I don't want to say embarrassed. They
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: weren't embarrassed, but they felt like nothing with ma Vishnu there,
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: they didn't feel as good again. They had the same
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: same idea as others. They used mavish New's appearance and
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: they could see how dedicated they were because you had
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: to work a lot to play that type of music.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: And they became a better band and a much bigger
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: and famous band as years went on. But some writers
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: were following Mavishnu early early on on tour, and as
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: each night progressed, Mavishnu was getting more and more accepted.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: Eventually a lot of record executives showed up to see
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: one of the shows and said, everybody's digging this music.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: We don't understand that in many cases, and some of
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: them claimed they did when they didn't, but you know,
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: they wanted to be with it, and so they put
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: ma Vishnu out with a combination of all sorts of
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: different people on these college tours. And that's one of
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: the things about the early nineteen seventies. It was happening
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: in the sixties too, and through most of the seventies
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: was the college concert scene. Colleges had entertainment budgets and
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: things of that nature, so they could bring big bands
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: in in many cases, you know, so the Alburnd Brothers
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: would play with ma Vishnu at a college, the Eagles
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: would play at a college with Mavishnu, Taj Mahall, you know,
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: and some jazz players. You know. Some places would be
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: a azz players in Marvishon. Of course, the most famous
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: tour that mabys Shnew was probably on was with Frank
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: Zappa and the Mothers, which was late April and early
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: May of nineteen seventy three. It's sad in a way
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: because this college market disappeared years ago. Back then, concerts
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: existed to sell records. It's totally opposite now. And back
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: then you could go see marvish New Orchestra for two
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: dollars three dollars.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: I wrote down here I'd noted some of the interesting
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: acts that they played with. You mentioned some of them,
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: Jered Garcia, t rex All Brothers band. You mentioned maybe
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: Billy Joel.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: I think there's one. No, there's there's two shows ones
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: and maybe the other's definite.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, Billy Preston, Harry Chapin, the Doors, the Eagles, you mentioned, Aerosmith,
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: the Pointer Sisters, Frank Zappa, comedian George Carlin. There was
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: another comedian I think that they opened four Martin Moule.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: Martin Moll.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: Let's talk about the two comedians. You know, Jay Lenno
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: used to open for rock shows. Again, it wasn't an
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: unusual thing, but what was unusual to me. Just think
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: about George Carlin, he was very famous. He opened for
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: ma Vishnu. That gives you an indication of how popular
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: Mavishnu was becoming, and that was only in the band's
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: second year. On that same bill was Todd Rundgren, who had,
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: you know, a big hit song at the time, the
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: Martin Mole. He came out. You can't be more different
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: than Martin Mull when you walk out in your mavish
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: New Orchestra and Martin Moule does his I don't know
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: if you're familiar with his comedy back then, but he
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: would set up sort of his living group on the stage,
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: and he'd have a little guitar out there and he'd
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: tell stories and play. Perhaps though the most famous concert
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: involved comedians was when they did open for Cheachin Schoen.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: I can only imagine you go to see Cheachin and
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: the opening act is the Mavish New Orchestra. This is
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: a very famous concert. When a whole bunch of Chiach
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: and Chong fans saw that this band was coming out
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: to play, they decided, Uh, what need I don't want
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: to watch them. I'm gonna leave, probably go get high,
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: get ready for Cheaching Chong. They left planning to come back,
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: so they left. Mavishnu played for about two hours, which
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: was much longer than they were probably scheduled to play,
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: and there was some criticism from one of the critics,
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: But when you get behind the scenes, they played that
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: long because they had to. There was something going on
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: and Chiach and Chiwing weren't ready or whatever the situation.
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: Maybe you come to your own conclusion. I came to
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: mind it in the book. But they played for about
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: two hours, so it was finally time for Chichin Chong,
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: so all the people came back, and all the people
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: who came back into the theater looked, and all the
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: people that would had stayed for ma Vishnu all sitting
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: in their chairs like.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: This, stunned.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: It was stunned. They were dazed. They didn't know what
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: hit them, and you couldn't communicate with them. And there's
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: stories like that throughout the book where the concert's over,
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: and I've talked about how they leave quietly. Sometimes people
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: don't even leave their chairs. Their friends had to go
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: back and say come here and oh. And the great
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: Dennis Chambers once said he saw Mobis's new orcasto where
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: he's fourteen years old. I said, what did it feel like?
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: And he said it felt like I stuck my finger
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: in a light socket. That's how he described seeing Mobis's
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: new live.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Booked on rock podcasts, We'll be back after this.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: Don't go away, gentlemen, we may need all of you.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: The t Rex story in the book February eighteenth of
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: seventy two at the Spectrum in Philadelphia. The t Rex
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: audience were lost at first, according to one review, but
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: once they caught onto the band after a while, they
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: didn't want them to leave, and then they some of
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: them even booed t Rex. I mean, what was the
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: overall scope of responses from audiences to the band in
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: those early days with all those different types of we
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: mentioned a lot of the Aerosmith, Pointer Sisters and funny.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of elements discussed in the book.
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: One of the elements is geography.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: That was another question I was gonna ask you, Yes,
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: certain parts of the country.
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: That where you were Mavish New music in the South though,
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: was not accepted as well as the band's, say Marshall
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: Tucker that were on the same bill. So let's say
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: Marshall Tucker and ma Vishnu on the same bill. They're
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: north of the Mason Dixon line and ma Vishnu is
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: a tremendous hit. They go a little south and they're
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: all there to see Marshall Tucker. Depended upon where they
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: were at. Now, sometimes they were misplaced. They'd beat some
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: big festivals, say down in Florida, again down south, where
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: they were met with relatively disinterest, you know, because they
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: were there to see the Alman Brothers or Tim Lizzie
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: or wherever the heck was playing. You know, these heavy
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: metal bands that they had scheduled along with them, and
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: they were ignored. That happens, but they weren't ignored by
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: the musicians. You know, even in those types of shows,
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: you know, you hear all sorts of stories about the
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: other musicians going up there and watching them, or watching
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: them from the side. There's a story in a book
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: about rod Argent noticing the Mavish New Orchestra watching them.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: And there's another nice interesting mix Argent hold your Head
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: Up and ma Vishnu on the same bill. So that
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: happened down you know, Billy Cobbon was taking pictures of
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: the drum and the drummer got all nervous because he thought,
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: you know, Billy Cobbham, you know this great drum I
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: can't compete with him or compare to him, even though
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: they're playing different music. But even though that was a
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: different genre. Rod Arch Colsmovish New Orchestra the greatest band
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: that they ever played with, you know, they ever on
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: the same thing.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: But yeah, West Coast audiences were they were they more
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: open minded like San fran or things like that.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's true. They never played in Mississippi or Louisiana.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: You wouldn't play those places a lot.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: Of Connecticut shows. I noticed. Yeah, well I'm in Connecticut.
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: You lived in Connecticut for a while, so those venues
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: I'm very familiar with. Some are still around, like Wesleyan
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: and Middletown. Yeah, still there a lot of shows.
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: They did a lot of shows up and down East.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: Coast, Bushnell and Hartford.
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Bushnell and when Bushnell.
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: Was funny it was the one because they were so
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: unknown at the time. They played at the Bushnell hart
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: Ford July seventy two build as Man of Vish New Orchestra.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: So Manavish Space and you orchestra, and then they there's
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: a new Hampshire newspaper they said would be directed by
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: John mclafflin, so they actually thought it was an orchestra.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: I thought it was a real orchestray. Yeah. Yeah. Apparently
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: back then you didn't need to know how to spell
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: to do ad copy. That's all I mean, you know,
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: mana Vishnua. Yeah, I mean, you see everything. And in fact,
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: I was going to include a whole section of just misspellings,
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: you know, because they said, but you know, the book
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: could only be so long, and in fact the book
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: is two pounds. In hindsight, I wish it was less
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: than two pounds because it creates a shipping problem cost
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: It has to be shipped as if it's three pounds.
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: That's the way the post office works. But I was
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: going to include all of those. There's a couple. There's
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: one from up in Detroit that's an all time classic
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: is Arrowsmith and MALAVISU And I mean every band is
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: spelled wrong A R R O W Smith right, you know,
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: and just say, boy, how did they how did they
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: do this? How did they get people there? Now? Sometimes
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: because mom USh new play, they took their manager that
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: wise took every opportunity to find a gig, even when
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: they were big, they'd take lesser gigs, even back a
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: few bands up that they were way more famous then,
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: but just to get the extra money on the way
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: to the next place. So when this type of stuff
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: would happen, sometimes sometimes you'd have this huge band and
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: it'd be playing a small place, or more times than not,
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: there'd be no advertising there's a show in Pittsburgh or
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: outside of Pittsburgh that literally, you know, with the exception
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: of maybe some radio ads and at the last minute
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: and a poster in a local music store, there are
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: no ads, and you wonder how did people find out?
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: It was just word of mouth, you know, all of
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: a sudden, a thousand people show up, but two thousand
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: people show up.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: Wow yeah Internet.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But sometimes I'm gonna say, even a year in
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: you know, they might show up and there's a gig
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: at Vanderbilt University and the best I could tell about
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: fifty people were there. And you know, this was a
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: band that was attracting thousands at the time. But as
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: I said earlier, they'd play their heart out. There's another
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: story about John mcgloffin who years later there was some
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: type of snaff foo. He had another band called One
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: Truth Band, and they were playing a big venue I
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: want to say in New Jersey. I can't remember the
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: name of the place. And they had two shows, but
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: there was some snaffoo in the advertising and whatnot. So
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: they played a sold out first show and they came
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: out for the second show, not a set, an actual show,
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: another concert, and they were like twenty twenty five people there,
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: you know, instead of thousands, and they just played the
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: whole show. You know, they're getting paid. We have a
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: good band, why not use it? Type of feeling I've
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: always believed this to be true. Great musicians are greater
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: than you think they are, and if you get to
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: know some and spend some time around, you realize the
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: dedication and how great they are. They're greater than you know.
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: And oftentimes you can go to a concert and I've
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: had the great opportunity to go back stage many many
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: times after a great concert and see a band that
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: cannot be consoled. They think they did so poorly when
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: they were great, but they know how great they can be,
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: and so they're bothered by it. You know, an average
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: musician doesn't give a shit if they're not up to park.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: A great musician, and a great artist for that matter,
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: across you know, all forms of art. It matters to them.
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: That's what that's what sets them apart.
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you've heard the Buddy Rich tapes on the bus, yes,
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: talk about perfection.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, Rick Laird played with Buddy Rich.
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: He did play with him, Okay, yeah, but.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: He fired him four or five times.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah, he's ripping into his band for
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: not being absolutely perfect.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's said, that's that said. He's a great drummer,
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: he's a great musician.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: Hell yeah, there's this theory.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: A friend of mine. I don't use this name because
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: I don't want him to have to defend it all
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: the time. He said, all great artists, and this applies
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: to you know, any type of art, whether it's writing
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: or music or painting, anything. God. If there's a god
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: or human or a being or something that gives you
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: powers in this life. If there were ten elements, he claims,
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: if there is ten elements that forms a total human being,
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: the greatest artists have nine. They don't have ten. They're
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: always missing something because what was going to be used
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: for that missing element is used in the art part
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: of their life. In that so you might find a
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: great musician I won't name him, but he's in the
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: book who is amazing, like an amazing musician, but does
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: not understand money, doesn't know it, has no clue of
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: budgeting or anything else. And that's the weakness that that
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: musician has because it's been taken away or never given
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: to him. That's why a lot of you know, sometimes
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: you meet these geniuses, but they're a little off the gift.
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: It doesn't go in these ten elements. It could be
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: five elements, it could be twenty elements. Whatever that number
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: is they are lacking in some of those elements to
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: form the complete human being.
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: That's a way to look at an observation.
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: Well, how do you separate How do you separate Miles
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: Davis from his behavior or some others or some artists
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: that were not nice people, painters that were not nice people.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: How do you separate it? I do? That's my tech guy.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: I separated. That's what I've determined to do. I haven't
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: had to make many decisions because you know that's few
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: in number generally, But I have to do it. I
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: have to separate the art from the person. And when
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: the person is fantastic, that is great, that's I sing
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: on top of the cake. But I but you have
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: to separate the two.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: Book on podcasts will be back after this. It's intermationing time.
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: Talk about those Japan shows. This was a challenge for it.
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: There were shows in Japan and seventy three. It's the
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: most difficult for you to research. Talk about that challenge
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: and how are you still able to put together this
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: part of the book because you couldn't skip over.
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: It, so you had to Yeah, I mean.
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: Why was it so difficult too? I guess I'm curious,
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: as you know.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: I went to many libraries and also visited them in
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: a digital way and contacted librarians and archivists all over
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: the world fans. Not much available in the Japanese press
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: reviews of that nature of this time, even though the
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: concerts were very popular, they sold out, and the Buddha
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: Con it's fourteen thousand people. Now, finally, Japanese music journalist,
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: you meet Kudo. She did find a book that had
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: something about one of the shows in there, and so
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: I was able to use that. But this very complicated
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: that last tour that they had, well I won't say
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: last tour, but the last foreign tour that they had,
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: and that they were breaking up because of an article
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: that appeared in a music magazine. There was unrest in
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: the band and they couldn't It's a lot involved here.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: For those people, they should read my book Power Passionate
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: Beauty that want to find out everything about the breakup
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: and everything. This book doesn't go into all that. This
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: is just concerts, live events. But John read the article
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: on the plane and he was mad, and people weren't
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: speaking when they got to Japan, and they had a
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: press conference right away, and you see all these pictures.
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: I think I have a picture in the book of this.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: They really weren't speaking, and Elliott Sears sound engineer, and
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: the road manager and some of the other roadies were
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: afraid of what was going to happen in Japan, and
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: sure enough, the first show, by their standards, was not good. Again,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: I enjoyed it because I'm listening to the turmoil. I
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: know what's going on, what was going on behind the scenes,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: and I said, boy, this is fascinating. You know, Rick's
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: generally two minute solo is eleven minutes, you know what
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, because you know something's going on. But Elliott says,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: by the time the tour ended, they were firing back
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: again on all cylinders. They were great for the last show,
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: but the archives were just not there. I contacted the promoters,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: they never contacted me back, and so I had to
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: do as much research as I could from Elliott. I
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: did find references, I did find some images, and it
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: was a tough tour to chronicle, but I think, you know,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: I did the best I could in that particular sense.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: One of those shows, I believe, is the one Carlos
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: Santana points out the solo on the piece I wonder
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: as being his personal favorite I was in Japan.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes you're surprised by the knowledge of musicians. Carl
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: Santana is one of them. I would also call him
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: a John mcglofflin scholar or a Mavish New Orchestra scholar.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: And he followed the band around. He, you know, years
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: before the rest of us had access to all these tapes.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: He was collecting all these bootlegs of ma Vishnu and
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: he can point out solos and of course that solo
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: took place in that Japan tour and things weren't going well.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: That solo was John mcglofflin's solo that he talked about,
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: and he said he could feel John's discomfort in that solo.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: And that's something I understand, and you understand it more
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: if you listen to more. You know, if you listen
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: to more music, can you understand what type of mood
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: is the band in tonight? People would be mistaken to
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: think that funny things didn't happen in the music. Funny
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: things happen in jazz all the time, even if it's
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: inside just to the musicians. And some times, you know,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: I you know, there's a little lick that's played and
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: you go, oh, that's interesting, you know, because you know
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: where that lick comes from, and you know that must
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: have made another player chuckle, you know, things of that nature.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: The title of Power Passion Vieto is the Greatest Band
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: that ever was the subtitle on this book, I said,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: And I got some pushback on that, obviously, because it's
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: my opinion. So this book I changed the subtitle a
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: little bit. I said, the greatest live band that ever
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: was because I think they can be less argument with me,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: especially since you can go back and listen to a
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: lot of it.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: And they did come back from Japan and played a
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: few more shows before that lineup ended. October seventh, seventy three,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: they played the Colden Auditorium at Queen's College in Flushing,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: New York. That was the first show after the decision
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: to end things. Geraldo Rivera the MC at one late
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three show We Go Back to Connecticut, Fairfield, Connecticut,
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: December eighth, eighteen seventy three at Fairfield University's University Jim
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: and then their very last show, It's an interesting piece
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: of trivia right Detroit, Michigan was the very last show
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: from that lineup the Masonic Temple Auditorium, December thirtieth, nineteen
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: seventy three. No signs that the band wasn't getting along,
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: certainly not on stage. They played a great show.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: Right, they did. They played a great show, great ovation.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: John wished everybody a happy New Year, and as I
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: end my book, and then when they went backstage, they
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: went their separate ways, never to be in the same
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: room ever again.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: And John formed different incarnations of Maha Vishnu Orchestra.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, at the beginning, I think a lot of it.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: He had a vision that he did see it as
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: an orchestra. After the first version of the band, and
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: so he formed a larger band with Nardamichael Walden and
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: John mcponi and Rolph Armstrong and Gail Moran, Bobby and Knapp,
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: Steve Kimbler, I even on and on and on. It
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: was big. You know, it was a bigger band. Marshall Westbrook,
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: I'm going to forget somebody, Phil Hershey, sorry if I
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: forgot anybody. And that was a bigger band. But then
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: the economy of scale didn't work and he had to
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: break it down to a quartet. Well, first he had
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: to call that band a little bit. Then he called
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: it even further so at the very beginning on we
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: talked about inner worlds a little bit. And that was
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: the last version of the Movish New Orchestra.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: There was one that was produced by George Martin.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he produced the Apocalypse, which was the first album
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: of the second version. It's interesting what you end up
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: listening to. Now. I've probably heard Birds of Fire, meaning
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: the tune or Meeting the Spirits. I've probably heard both
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: of them over a thousand times. I would have to say,
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: you know, there's just the regular recording itself, not any
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: live versions. But when I go for pleasure, when I
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: go to put records on, I listened to Apocalypse now
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: from the second version a lot. It's very symphonic, obviously
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: with the London Symphony Orchestra and George Martin as the producer.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: And I also listened to the live album between Nothingness
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: and the Eternity. Of the first three albums. To me,
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: it's sort of the weakest album because it's sound issues.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: But for whatever reason, and maybe it's my affinity, I
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: enjoy live recordings above studio recordings, especially with jazz players.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: There's something about that I can put myself in the audience,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: and when I do that, it brings me a great pleasure.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: And so it's interesting what you listen to. You find things.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: I was in the photography business for many years. I
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: used to take a lot of pictures. I used to
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: be into photography until I went into the photography business.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: You're dealing with pictures and photography all the time. So
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: in your spare time, instead of taking hikes taking pictures,
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: you no longer do that, you know, And I think
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: it's the same when you write about music, and it's
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: just going to sound strange to people you listen to
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: less music. It's this dichotomy. I mean, I would love
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: while I'm writing these books to just have the music
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: on all the time and you list and that. But
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: it's hard to write that way if you're really trying
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: to concentrate, because the music can sort of lure you away,
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: at least for me. But just like with cameras and
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: using them less when I worked in the camera industry,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: when I'm writing, I hear less music. One of the
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: things I'm looking forward to after the promotion for this
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: book is over, is I'm going to start listening to
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: some more music.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: Well, they have Yale University show from October of seventy
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: three available now, and then the Berkeley College show from
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: November seventy two. I've listened to both of those. Those
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: are amazing shows. Yeah, any standout shows like there's the
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: one that you say, yeah, that's their best.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: There's many shows, there's many, many generally accept it. Is
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: that that show from Cleveland, which is sometimes called wild Strings.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: It's a live show from Cleveland.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: Is that an official release or bootleg?
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: Bootleg? But it's on YouTube, It's been there for ten
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: years and the announcer are you reading ready for some
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: good music? He goes out, here's the orchestra. Nobody knew
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: really who they were. They came out and blew everybody away. Now,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: from a standpoint of legendary, badly considered that a tune
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: from the Marty Soul Festival, which was a disaster festival
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: in Puerto Rico, and only one tune from that performance
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: was ever released. Also a live you know, it was
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: a live version of the Noonwood Race and it's considered
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: sort of the single greatest live tuned by many Movish
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: New fans that they ever did. Hard to find, but
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: it's around in some places. Now, I did a lot
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: of research and I write about that in the book
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: and about that festival in depth, and I invite people
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: to read the book to sort of learn the whole story,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: because it's many pages long.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: The book done. Rock podcast will be back after this.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's like no way that we can just
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: pause for a minute. You guys just go home and
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: do your stuff, and then tomorrow we can just.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: Like continue Mahavish New Memories, the remarkable tour history of
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: the legendary Mahavish New Orchestra down now find out wherever
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: books are sold. The ebook currently available at Amazon. The
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: premium print version for true Mahavish New fans and collectors
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: is available at Amazon only in the Continental US at
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: this time. The print on demand version printed digitally worldwide Amazon,
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: and then the premium print version book can be purchased
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: from you directly.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if people have special requests, they can contact me
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: at Mahagish New Memories at gmail dot com and we'll
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: see what we can do. The premium print book features
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: high resolution pictures. It's printed the old fashioned way on
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: an offset prus. The reason I decided to offer that
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: is if you're really a true magish New fan and
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: you're into collectibles, that's the book you're going to want
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: to have. I'd also recommend you, know it's self serving,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: but if you're a real big Mavish New fan that way,
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: I would recommend you buy that book and the print
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: on demand. The print on demand book, it's fine, it's
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: perfectly good, same exact book. The pictures are not high rents, however,
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: but those are available all over the world because they
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: can be printed where people are. But that copy, if
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: you buy the premium print version you want to just
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: go into the book every day, you can go into
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: the print on demand while your other collectible item stays
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: pristine up on your shelf. And so that's why I
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: decided to do that.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: I believe there are photos that you sent me that
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: are in the book.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: I think most of them are.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so we'll share those with those who.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: Are There's over two hundred pictures in that book. I'm
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: obvious doing I would say three quarters of them have
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: never been seen before.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, great photos, and so people can watch this interview
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: on YouTube to see some of those photos. I'll put
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: those up and make sure you go out and get
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: this book. I got to get the first book. Now
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: I got to read up on the full history of
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: that early lineup. But get thank you for introducing me
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: to this band. I mean what took me so long?
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: I guess is what I was asking myself, Like why
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: was I waiting? Because I love I love music in general?
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: Like why was I not tell you how happy I
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: am that you discovered the band, because that's the goal
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: not only of this book, but if any time, you know,
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: I meet somebody and they never heard of the Mavish
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: New Workers and I.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: Do you ever plan on doing books on the other
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: versions of the band? I mean, that's a big undertaking.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: I'm Mahavish New Doubt.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: I don't blame you.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it took me five years to write this book.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: I was interrupted a few times by life. This is
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: what happens. Initially it was going to take a year,
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: two years at the most, but it took five years.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: But if somebody wants to use my book as a
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: stepping off point to go to the next band, please
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: feel free. I just can't. I I just can't. I've
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: told a couple of other interviewers, one of them I
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: really enjoy research, but at a certain point when I
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: was digging into research, I discover that I was the
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: source eight years of previous so I'd be tracked something down.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: I said, Oh, I wrote this look familiar, right, I go, Wow,
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: what a great writer of this day.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: That's me.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: That's me in two thousand and nine. And I just
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: spent you know, three hours tracking this down.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: That's a great thing about researching for books, in my opinion,
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: and I will continue to research on other things just
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: for my own entertainment. But it's the love of the
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: hunt when you when you get in there and you
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: discover new things that I never knew. And I, you know,
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: I'm considered an expert and non it is new before
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: this book came out, humbly said. But I learned new things,
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: and I learned something new just the other day. One
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: of the things that is happening. And I'll make this
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: my last point in this great interview that I've really
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: enjoyed one of the things that's happened. And I ask
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: people to do this. If you know what more information,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: send it to my website Walter Koloski dot com. Send
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: it to me there, or if you if you know
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: other ways to contact me. Fine, and I already found
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: the name of one of the opening bands that I
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: could not find, so that in the second printing, and
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: because somebody was there, I tracked the person down and
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: sure enough I got a little all confirmed. I have
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: to confirm everything, and so in the next edition that person,
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: that person's name will be in the book. So all
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: on this enjoyable hunt, and I'm very happy with what
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: I was able to bring home with this book.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for being here, wal Walter Kuloski.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: This was a pleasure to have you on and talk
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: about this amazing band.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I really enjoyed speaking with you.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: I really did. That's it.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: It's in the books.