Latest / South Asian Trailblazers / Neerja Birla: The Matriarch Building India's Mental Health Movement

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Neerja Birla: The Matriarch Building India's Mental Health Movement · South Asian Trailblazers

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: You are a leader from one of India's leading families.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_03: You could have chosen any issue.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: Why mental health?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: Stigma is so much.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: The language for it is missing.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_03: One can't really explain what one feels.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know, made me realize that there is a lot that can be done in that space.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure when you were approaching people, they were like, how has someone like you struggled with mental health given everything you have at your disposal?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Mental health does not discriminate.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: Could happen to anybody, any age, any gender.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: So easy to just jump to conclusions.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Today you've partnered with Mumbai police, and I imagine it was very challenging.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_03: Mental health awareness was so lacking even amongst the police personnel.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: When we were going to workshops, they kind of understood that they themselves were going to issue it.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: What is your take on AI in this space?
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of people are using ChatGPD as their counsellors.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: If you're going to start consulting it for everything, then India has come a long way in the mental conversation.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you feel like they have still to go?
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: The needle has really moved a lot.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: Anything that needs a mindset shift needs a lot of work.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: We're asking for a lot of cultural change.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: You have to have mindset shift before you can have systemic shift.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: What do you wish more people understood about you and your family?
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think what do you want your individual legacy to be?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think legacy is something that you leave behind.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: I think legacy is what continues after you've left.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: Values that are lead behind in my community, and what they make of it that would be my legacy that I'm going to leave behind.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Today's guest is from one of India's leading families, but she has created a legacy all on her own.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Me, Mirja Virla of the Verla family.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Mirja Virla is the founder and chairperson of the Vithia Beirla Education Trust, the force behind her organization Empower, which is dedicated to mental health advocacy and care in the global south.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: To date, they have reached over 180 million lives and delivered over 300,000 clinical care sessions.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: She's a mental health advocate around the world, serving as the first Indian representative on Headspace's global advisory board, as well as the chair for the Mental Health Trust globally.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Earlier this year, I had the privilege of sitting down with her daughter, Ananya Beirlum.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm so excited to welcome yet another member of the Beirla dynasty to the pod.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Up next.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you could have chosen to take on any issue.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Why mental health?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: So lovely to be here, Simi.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, I'm asked that question quite often, especially when I'd started out.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: I think it was, you know, intriguing people, and people were quite curious why mental health.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: A part of the answer lies in that.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: Because the fact that it was so stigmatized that people were actually asking me why mental health out of all things.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: So many causes why mental health.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: But that's the fact.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's the reason actually.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: It was so it's so stigmatized.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's such a taboo.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I had my trist with mental health, both as a caregiver and uh one who went through it myself.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: So I've seen it from both sides.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know, through both the experiences, I realized that the language for it is missing.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: One can't really explain what one feels.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the stigma is so much, so you know, you sort of lack support and it's such an isolating feeling.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_03: And then, you know, you're kind of struggling to understand whom to go to for help.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: So I think all that put together, I I thought that, you know, why not make it make mental health care more accessible for other people?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I realized that if, you know, having resources and still one could find it so difficult, or you know, having general, I mean, being educated and yet lacking awareness, um, you know, made me realize that there is a lot that can be done in that space.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: And uh that was how, you know, empower happened.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: I it's interesting that you say that because I feel like people here often say that mental health, you know, it has no class, it has no geography, it can impact anyone, to your point.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that lack of awareness, super interesting.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people in your position could have just chosen to give money to organizations and support organizations.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Why did you choose to start your organization in power?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: What did you feel like you could do differently than what was already being done?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: Because, you know, mental health was not really being addressed at all.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: So we didn't have any organization back then.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we we had psychiatrists and we had psychologists, everyone was working in silos.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: There was no one organization that was looking at the entire ecosystem and which was looking at mental health care as a continuum.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there was no roadmap, there was no kind of lessons to learn from anybody because nobody had done that kind of thing before.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_03: And also, you know, I wanted to make a difference myself.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I knew, like I like because I had experienced it and I knew about it from both sides, I knew what was missing.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, and I thought the easiest is to just dive right in and start creating solutions.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Today you've partnered with, you know, the Mumbai police and massive organizations in India.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: I imagine it was very challenging initially to get big groups like that on board, especially when it's so stigmatized and not part of the conversation.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: Can you speak tactically to how did you start working with these organizations and bring them along with the mission?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I have to say that some of the government organizations have been uh, you know, supremely supportive.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, the CISF, for example, they approached us.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: By then, we had actually done quite a lot of work, and I think, you know, again, they realize there's no other organization who's kind of doing this kind of work.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: And um, so they they approached us uh to come on as their mental health partners.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the police actually we started working, I wanted to work with victims of rape.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: So we approached the police if we could do that.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, as it happened, and as it happens with a lot of other communities and institutions, when we started work in that space, we realized that the mental health awareness was so lacking, even amongst the police personnel.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: They didn't, they were not even aware of how to approach a woman who's a victim.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: So we had to start from the brass tag.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: So, first explaining about mental health.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, very often, like you you must be knowing that in our language, in Hindi, for example, there's no word for anxiety.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: So when there's no language, and language is such a barrier.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: How do you express that?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: So it was always expressed in terms of feelings.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: Then we started working with them, they realized that you know they need the awareness.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: They they've and well, when we were going through workshops, they kind of understood that they themselves were uh going through issues and concerns.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, that's the work, that's how we started working with the police at a much larger scale.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, it's been a it's been a couple of years.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: I think they're obviously seeing the difference.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: Uh right from screening to creating referral pathways to them taking counseling, uh, really creating an entire systemic change.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: What are some of the early roadblocks you faced in taking this on?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, lots of them.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: It was very challenging.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: Stigma being one of them.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Did you feel that, especially in your position as you were saying, people said, you know, you could have taken anything on?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Did you feel sort of that the impacts of that on your personal pride?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't actually.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: That I I don't think that really ever came in the way.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I think people were, of course, very pleasantly surprised I had taken it on.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, which in a sense, you know, worked in the favor.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_03: But just getting people on was very difficult because, like, you know, when we approached corporates to offer them workshops, right?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: This is in the initial days, they didn't want to take the workshop because they didn't want the word mental health in it.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the stigma was that much.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_03: Or when we approached schools, they refused to take it because this they didn't want to let people know that there is a mental health issue.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: So there was an elephant sitting in the room, but they were not wanting to acknowledge it.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that was the biggest barrier.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: Really, how do you get people on board?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_03: And then we also realized that when we when we started working, like say when we were working in schools, we realized that just working with the child was not enough because the child was going back to home or there were teachers, and so it was an entire ecosystem that we had to really work with.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: We had to work with all stakeholders.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: So it was a learning, you know, as we went along.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we also I also realized that uh very often they didn't know what was mental health.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: So we had to start from actually first creating the need for it.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and then came the then came actually educating people about it.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: How did your experience, even in the generational gap in your own home, right?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like you had experienced it postpartum.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Ananya, when she came on our podcast, spoke about her experiences with mental health.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure even in that relationship, you saw the differences and how you both speak about it.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: How did that help you sort of bridge that divide for this whole ecosystem of the parents and the kids and the counsels, et cetera?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_03: So I think in our case, with Ananya and me, because uh, you know, fortunately I was able to understand the situation, though I was, you know, lost about what to do.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: But at least uh I did not resist the situation, which made it much easier.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I realized that for a lot of the children, if the parents or the parent is just non-judgmental and is receiving it well, that's actually half the battle won.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_03: Because, you know, in her case or in anybody's case, the person going through is already going through a tough time.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: And then if you don't have support and if you're if it's so isolating, it just you know, it just makes it so difficult to get the help that you really need.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: What are the failures you've seen and experienced in building in power that have impacted you?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: So I wouldn't call them failures.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I think they've been good mistakes.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's been a learning along the way.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: You know, just the way we approached it right beginning, right in the beginning.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_03: I think, you know, it being such a passion project, it didn't follow any kind of business norm, if you know what I'm saying.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't sort of do the usual, you know, find the white space, then do the research, then come up with a strategic model, uh, you know, all that to start at business school.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't do any of that.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't have any kind of my education was not in that.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_03: I had no sense of business whatsoever.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I just so surprising though, just being in the family that you are in the incredibly successful businesses you've all built.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but you know, I've never been a business person in that sense, if you know what I'm saying.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, of course, it's all there's always conversation, there's always, you know, uh dining table conversation around it, but not into the nuts and bolts of it, if you know what I'm saying.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, there were a lot of learnings along the way.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: And um, maybe if I were to do it differently, maybe I'd, you know, now have the idea, first create the how to go about it, and then get into it.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: That actually resonates a lot because I started Trailblazers as a passion project, and so I didn't go about it as clinically either, right?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: I was just like, there are stories and I want to tell them, and I understand that I think there's a lot of beauty that emerges when you build something from passion in the raw authenticity that people feel, but it also can set you behind in other ways.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Super interesting.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Did you ever feel like there was an expectation of you to go work in the business rather than working on something like this?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: No, that was never the case.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: So, again, in my generation, I don't think that women really went to office.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_03: It was just um, it was an unsaid rule, if I may call that.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, I don't think that it would have been well received if I would have said I want to get into business.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but things have changed.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, uh, it's not like that now.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, even for your daughters.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_03: So I wanted to make it different for my girls.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: In that respect, was it a little bit taboo that you started building something like Empower?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: You know, because it came into the space of social impact and a social initiative and like uh seen as a philanthropy, I think it was okay.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know, of course, the family's always been into philanthropy.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_03: Of course.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: I think because it was it had that lens, it was sort of all right.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: What do you believe now about building social enterprises?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: Or what what did you believe 10 years ago about building in social impact work that you no longer believe today?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so you know, when I started out, actually it's been so organic that I didn't even know that I'm going to be building a social impact enterprise.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm saying, it was just such a passion project, just started with it, and it's literally just been such an organic growth.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it's just it's kind of just evolved into what it is today.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I know you've also built Ujas with your youngest daughter, Advaitesha.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, Empower was inspired in your relationship with the Nanya.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: What are the dynamics of building things like this with your daughters?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's great actually.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: So, Ujas, actually, my young Advaitesha, it was her idea.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, we brainstormed a lot, and then we thought, you know, this would be a nice thing for her to do, and she was really excited about it.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: It was her idea.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: She started it when she was 17, uh, before she started undergrad.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's just great because you know, you get to sort of work together, it's a very different dynamic, you see a very different side of each other in that space.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of um sharing that happens, um, and especially when it's around passion.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, it's a common shared goal in a sense, and that just makes it even more special.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: Do you ever clash heads or fight on this or otherwise?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Or even on this.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Not on this so much, but otherwise all the time.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, interesting, interesting.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: You are so uniquely positioned to build this, not just in the resources that you have, but your own personal experiences.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure when you were approaching people, they were like, How have how has someone like you struggled with mental health, given everything you have at your disposal?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: How did you forge that relatability?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Did you feel like people were a little bit doubtful?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: So nobody has ever actually asked me that upfront.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, wow.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm sure people think about it.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm so sure because it's such a myth, right?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and that's what I've been trying to sort of in in everywhere, initially, especially.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: What's the myth?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_03: That people uh who have who have all the resources materially can't go through a mental health concern.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, or highly functioning individuals can't have depression, for example.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think these are myths, right?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, mental health does not discriminate, right?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it could happen to anybody, any age, any gender, any economic background.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_03: It really doesn't matter.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody knows the struggles that really go on behind, you know, behind the face.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: You don't know what the stories are.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I almost feel sometimes everyone is wearing such a mask.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: You don't know what's the truth.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's so easy to just jump to conclusions, right?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: That, you know, what's the what what could be her problem?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: She just has everything.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: But people just very loosely categorize just having having everything materially as having everything.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: But that's not uh everything, right?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, so, so interesting.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, in the last decade of building in power, India has come a long way on the mental health conversation.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you feel like they have still to go as a country?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: A lot, actually.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, you're s what you're saying is absolutely right.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: The needle has really moved a lot, and uh, we've really come a long way.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: The first um press conference that I had when we were announcing uh the launch of Empower, there were two journalists.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody was interested.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: It was such a taboo, we didn't have any journalists doing that beat.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, nobody wanted to pick up that story, it was of zero interest.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_03: COVID happened.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_03: In a strange way, it got mental health into very sharp focus.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: People started recognizing that white elephant that was hitting.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody wanted to push it under the carpet anymore.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: That kind of gave it a jump start.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, after COVID, things kind of settled down again, the dust settled, but conversations remained.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: And now we have mental health as a very center-stage conversation.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: So things have really moved a lot.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: But I think a lot more needs to be done in awareness.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: A lot more needs to be done to make mental health care more accessible.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's it is more accessible in the you know urban pockets, for example, but not so much in rural.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, so there's a lot that needs to be done on accessibility, uh, on people, on making people aware what really is mental health.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: Because, like I'm saying, since words don't exist for certain conditions, you're only relying on the expression of the feeling.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have a particular story or experience that sticks with you in building?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh just the fact that how it was so stigmatized earlier, uh, where people were not even willing to take on any kind of workshops.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: We went, we approached so many schools in the beginning, nobody was willing to take it, corporates were not willing to take it.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's a story that has really stuck because it also tells me how much the needle has moved and how much we've moved ahead.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_03: So it it kind of instills hope also.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: It also tells me that anything that needs a mindset shift uh needs a lot of work.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's it's a huge paradigm shift.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: We're asking for a lot of cultural change.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: You have to have mindset shift before you can have systemic shift, is what you're saying.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Very interesting.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think the West gets wrong about India in this regard?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's a tough one to answer.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, there are certain parameters where India can do uh, you know, more to kind of catch up with the West, uh, especially where research is concerned.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: Not enough evidence of you know what is working, what is not.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think um we can do much better on our monitoring frameworks.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um having said that, I think some of our community programs are very good.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: The government partnerships are very good.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, the entire uh the the step-up process of reaching help via the Asha workers, I think that works really well.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: So there is a lot that is working, and I think there's I think in some of the areas and some of the parameters, I think there is a lot more that can be done.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: How have you seen yourself evolve as a leader in building in power for the last 10 years and working on this issue?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's an interesting question, and I've never really thought about that.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe somebody who's been working with me would be a good one to answer.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: But do you feel any like changes or differences in how you approach leadership or this issue?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_03: I think I'm beginning to see it more from a macro level because I've also been meeting other people from around the globe.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: That gives a very different perspective.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: You get to know what's happening, you know, in the digital space.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: How else is innovation happening?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: How are they looking at problems?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: How are they looking at like say monitoring frameworks?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I think, you know, taking on a more macro view to it, I think that's one big difference.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_03: And also I feel that, you know, when you start out, uh everything that doesn't go right makes you nervous.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you just feel that, you know, it's the end all and be all.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but but I think you realize that things find a way.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you know, things solutions do come.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I think I've learned to be more patient.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: You know, something like this does need time.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and sometimes to see the results of what you're doing also needs time.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I think I've just learned to be a little bit more patient and to be with it.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, rather than expecting things to turn around very, very quickly.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_03: How has it impacted your own mental care?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_03: So it is very challenging, there's no doubt about it.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I sometimes feel I'm on a treadmill.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, it's just uh never-ending.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um which is a good thing as well.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because as a person, I think I am just that kind of person.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: I just like to be stepping out of my comfort zone every single day.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just made like that.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: I think that keeps me going.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: But the downside of it is that you're always feeling you're on a treadmill.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: And you're always on.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: You're always on.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just always on.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: So that of course does, you know, does take its toll, there's no doubt about it.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: But then you also start, you know, sort of putting in things for self-care.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I think self-care looks very different for different people.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, for me, self-care would be, you know, being more consistent and being more particular and more regular with my workouts, for example.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know you enjoy summiting mountains and cycling very much.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I do.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: I really do actually.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's my sort of go-to.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, or it could be just playing paddle in the evenings.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: So that's my self-care.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: You know, just going for coffee with my children, for example.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: That's my downtime.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, meeting up with friends, that's something that I really look forward to.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I catch up with a lot of reading when I'm traveling on flights.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: What are you reading right now?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I've just finished a very interesting book called uh Things People Don't Say.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I think it's called that.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: Very interesting.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um Slice of Life.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_03: I like these books which are very nuanced on relationships.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: Uh very sad book.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: I felt very sad after reading it, but very nice.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'll have to check it out.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm right and right now I've just started a book called Strangers.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: I've just started it.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Very exciting, very cool.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard of strangers.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Someone just recommended it to me recently, actually.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: You must reach a read correspondent if you haven't.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I mean, it sounds like up my alley, given what I do.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: Very, very nice.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: Really nice.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: Very, very, very different.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: The entire book is, the entire narrative is through letters.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, wow.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: And through that, the way she's portrayed the characters, uh, it's I think it was really nice.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: I just couldn't put that book down.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, I love that.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's interesting, even as you were just saying, like getting coffee with your kids or meeting up with friends.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think what's so beautiful about India and the global south broadly, and what I wish we had brought with us, or my parents had brought with us, is just this nature of community and how much we can alleviate mental tension and stress that we feel by being in connection with others.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: But we're not, America isn't built that way.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's very interesting to your point of yes, there's clinical practices and monitoring frameworks that probably can be brought there, but there's still so much we have to learn here.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: To that, I want to double down on the global perspective that you're focused on now.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you sit on, you know, you go to Davos, you've sit on the board of Headspace, and from my understanding, you're the first Indian representative on the advisory board.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: What has being in these international forums given you perspective on with respect to building?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: And what perspective do you feel like you bring to them?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's just interesting to see that I think the challenges around mental health are just universal.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's geography agnostic.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, how we approach it, what what the challenges are.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: For example, it could be again, in some places the stigma is more, some places it's less, awareness.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: So the metrics being the same everywhere, it's just in varying degrees.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so that's the universality of it.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um but the way they approach it, so for example, um India can do a lot more in digital innovation, okay.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: Having interventions digitally to scale up.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: I think that is something that is, you know, missing yet, uh, which is happening a lot in the West.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, innovations of different kinds, which don't are not there so much in India, it's a more um a more straightforward method.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um that is something that's happening in the West.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: So just these kind of global perspectives, the way the monitoring and evaluation is done, I think the frameworks that are there in the West are just very nice.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, it's it's been years and it's taken them a lot of time to come to those frameworks.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: We don't have that as yet.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: Not to that extent and not that polished.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think it's gonna take to get that level of polish?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: Just a little bit of time, and that's it.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I don't think that there's no reason why we shouldn't have it.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: It was just about being aware that, you know, there is this exists, and it's just about adapting it.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: And that's it, that's the beauty of these global conventions, that you kind of understand what's happening across the world, and you sort of marry the practices.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: You take what's happening in one part of the world, uh, you know, problem statement being the same.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: And if the solution has worked, you adapt it somewhere else.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: What is your take on AI in this space?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, I have to ask that, but but my my question rooted in this idea that a lot of the world has iPhones, even in spite of not even having access to clean water.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so they can access these LLMs.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: For some of them, they have someone to talk to.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: But as we've seen, the consequences of talking to platforms like these can create more mental harm than help.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is your take on the space given it is sort of providing that entry point to these digital solutions, but you know, without guardrails in some cases?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think the guardrails, exactly, the guardrails are really important.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: So I think AI is here to stay.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think we should wish it away because there is a lot of, you know, goodness that it brings, also.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of learning, um, you know, it's obviously shrunk the world, and there's a lot of information at the at the tip of your finger.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: But I think putting the guardrails and knowing how much to use, I think is the key in it.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_03: Even for uh I do know that a lot of times a lot of people are using Chat GPD as their counselors.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: Now, as the first layer and as a first level, I can understand that.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: But if you're going to start consulting it for everything, then you know you're only you're you're probably going to land up even more lonely than you are.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: Where any case grappling with loneliness as a pandemic.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think it's just there everywhere.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then resorting to tools, digital tools, is only going to increase it.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I think knowing how much to do and how much to use, and then having those guardrails, I think is the key.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Has learning all of this impacted how you parent your kids?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: About AI?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like AI, building in mental health, seeing all these global interventions?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think more than that is just the interactions with the kids on a regular basis that teaches me that day in and day out.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think every day has a learning.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, just, you know, the way one approaches conversations, uh, you know, how much to say, what not to say, what to say.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, all that has changed a lot.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: When we were growing up, we were not with our parents.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I mean, our parents could tell us anything, and we just had to be okay with it.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: But I think things have changed now.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, that's also because, you know, the younger generation, you're y'all are far more vocal, far more expressive, and I think that's amazing because uh there are a lot of times, even till today, I may not be able to be that expressive as I wish I could be, because we've just not been like that.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so you know, one we have to respect that about your generation, and we have to know how to receive that in the right manner, not be judgmental, and not always jump to fix things.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, as parents and as a mother, I think one is always trying to fix things.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think that is something that we have to, you know, sort of step back and uh, you know, know when to let go and how much to let go.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's that's phenomenal advice.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you've obviously raised three amazing kids who are who are trailblazing in their own right.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think what's so fascinating about your journey is you were married so young.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: You and Mr.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: Brill have been together, I think, what, 37 years now?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: You got married at 18?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's right, yeah.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what have you seen evolve in your partnership and in yourself over that 37 years?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, 37 years really does sound a lot.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's a whole lifetime.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: I think like with all marriages, I think the relationship just evolves.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: I think people grow.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you just you just grow, you know, as people, and uh therefore the interactions also just evolve in that manner.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: You don't necessarily have to be, you don't, you can't actually have the same relationship that you had when you got married.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_03: Because the people you're not you are not who you were when you got married.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_03: Of course.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_03: You're not who you are today.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, from that point of view, I think, and also having parented kids together, that also adds its own element of uh responsibility in a different manner.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: What do you wish more people understood about you and your family that they don't?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: The fact that, you know, all of us have our own struggles, we all have our challenges, and we're not uh we're as human as everybody else, and our struggles are also for real.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and a lot of times uh that's not seen.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: What is seen is just um, you know, what you see on social media, for example.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, or one just sees the successes, but one doesn't see the journey behind the success.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_03: One doesn't see the trials and the challenges and you know the difficulties that have come along the way.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um so yeah, I think that is that is something that I I I wish sometimes that people would really know that about me, also, that it's it's not been that easy.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, and it may seem that, you know, I had everything, I have everything on a platter, but I don't.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I mean I think that's so beautiful, even in just you sharing that, you know, and when you were coming up and growing up, it wasn't normalized for women to go to the office.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and to see where you are today is a very beautiful evolution.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: You're obviously here visiting the United States.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: What is your goal in educating partners here about India and your work?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: Basically, like I was saying earlier, want to I want to, you know, identify problem statements in the global south, identify a few of the problem statements mainly around women's mental health and youth mental health, um, and then get people on board who can then come up with solutions, see what's working in which part of global south, and what is it that we can adapt and adapt it to another part of global south?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, trying to do away with the redundancy that exists because funds are so limited.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: How do we make better use of the funds that we have?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, how do we make mental health care more efficient?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: How do we make it more accessible?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: And and how do we not reinvent the wheel?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: So if there is something that has worked in one part of the global south, can it work in another if the problem statement is the same?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: And just trying to amplify that impact uh and just trying to uh you know galvanize effort from across.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like something that I see even in my work building here around the South Asian community and talking about the global south is it we're still so early stages in people here understanding the global south.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: Do you feel any responsibility around that education and how do you go about it yourself?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: So I think when we started talking about it about two, three years ago, I think it was just not known at all.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: But now I do feel happy because people do know that you've seen the difference in power, yeah, which is doing good work in India.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: And that makes me really proud.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so people are waking up and people are sort of cognizant, getting cognizant of that now.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: If you weren't focused on mental health, what would you what would you be building in what space?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: Or what would you be doing with your time?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_03: So I also work a lot in the space of education.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um maybe I would have, I mean, so I gather you're you're considering in uh education and mental health already.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, yes.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: So other than that, I think I'd probably be doing something in sport.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, lots of exciting developments in your family around sport with RCB.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've been following.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: Eriman's been a cricketer all his time.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, of course.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_03: He was always also into sport.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: So it's, I mean, I think it's like a second major.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I love that.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, the Birla family's legacy is so tied even to India's own history.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Agnostic of the family and that history, what do you want your individual legacy to be?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I don't think legacy is something that you leave behind.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: I think legacy is what continues after you've left.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_03: And is there because you were a part of it.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I think, you know, the values that I leave behind for my children and what they make of it and what how they become as individuals, I think that would be my legacy that I want to leave behind.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, the work that, you know, we are doing through Empower in the space of mental health, the impact that it's going to create, and the change that that will create for the next generations to come.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's the legacy that I'd like to leave behind.
• 33:38
  unknown: Okay.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, our fingers are crossed.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: I want to end this conversation on a rapid fire, if you'll indulge me.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'll say a sentence and I just want you to fill in the blank.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: My children would describe me as hyperactive.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: India will lead the world in just about everything.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I was better at singing.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: XYZ walked so I could run.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Melinda?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: The greatest film of all time is oh gosh, I'm bad at remembering films.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_03: Sound of music.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Something I'm learning is how to stay calm.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: A hot take I have is never say never.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Summiting Mountains has taught me resilience.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I define trailblazing as leaving a legacy.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Miss Burlet, thank you so much for being here today.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's such an honor to have you, and thank you for sharing your work.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Ami.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: Really appreciate it.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for tuning in today.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you'll join our community at SouthAsianTrailblazers.com.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: Be sure to subscribe to our newsletter and follow us at South Asian Trailblazers on LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and any major platform.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Here at South Asian Trailblazers, we're dedicated to elevating, leading South Asians.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time.