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Entire Psychic Changes · Not a Doorknob

• 0:00
  [upbeat music] Hey there, welcome to Progress and Perfection, a recovery-themed, Christian-flavored daily reflection. Join us now for episode three of the deep dive into the Big Book of AA. My name is Amon.
• 0:13
  I'm joined with my buddy, John, and we're gonna talk about a bunch of stuff from Zima to Miss Chloe to Dr. Limits, mental control, and the classification of alcoholics. It should be fun.
• 0:24
  You can find more info about the show at progressandperfection.com. Uh, good to see you, friend. Likewise. Always a pleasure. We're back. We're back. Uh, I don't have any idea where we left off. I was wondering that too.
• 0:38
  I had full intentions all week of getting the book out, reviewing what we had done- I saw that... and then prepping for what we're about to do. You know, when I thought about that- [laughs]...
• 0:47
  I was reminded of that mental note that I made for myself- Yeah... when I got out of the car at your house. Yes. Excellent.
• 0:52
  And then I was like, "Oh, yeah, that might have been a good idea," but, uh- Coulda, coulda helped. Now, that's where we left off- Yeah, I think that's where we left off... 'cause now we get into the meat of it.
• 1:00
  That's where we left off. Ba-bum. All right. Right on. All right. You wanna go? Sure. Read it. All right. "Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol." Shocker. Yeah.
• 1:12
  "The sensation is so elusive that while they admit it is injurious, they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false. To them, their alcoholic life seems the only normal one.
• 1:25
  They are restless, irritable, and discontented unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks, drinks which they see others taking with impunity."
• 1:37
  All right, let's just pause there for a second. Yeah. Okay? 'Cause, like, I feel like that's just absolutely loaded. Um, that sensation that it's talking about, like, first of all, let's just be honest. Um,
• 1:51
  I love the feeling I get when I drink a beer. Yeah. Like, it's great. Ease and comfort. Yeah. I mean, it's, that's the perfect description. Loosen up a little bit- Yeah... you know, take the edge off a little bit.
• 2:04
  You know, I'm not too exaggerated, but I feel a little bit more comfortable in my own skin. You know? Like, I don't know. The, uh, it, it's a wonderful feeling. Yeah. You know?
• 2:13
  And so I think, like, uh, I like the way he phrases it, "Because they like the effect produced by alcohol." Mm-hmm. I mean, I think that's true. In my s- in my experience, that was 100% true.
• 2:24
  Um, even as it pertained to, like, I get it, like we're talking about alcohol, but even as it pertained to, like, my crack addiction- Yeah...
• 2:30
  like, dude, the freaking first hit of crack was like the greatest thing of all time. Your face goes numb. Your ears ring. Maybe you get a little nauseous.
• 2:39
  You know, it's this full-body just almost orgasmic experience that comes with that first hit. Yeah. Um,
• 2:47
  you know, and then, like, that, that second sentence there, "The sensation is so elusive that while they admit is, is, is injurious, they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false."
• 2:57
  So I love that part, um, because, like, yeah, I'm not gonna admit to myself that, uh, that this is problematic, that the way I feel is problematic.
• 3:09
  And, and I wanna hear from you also on this, but, like, as I would move from, like, the first drink into the second drink, or the first to the third drink, or, or fill in the blank, whatever drug or whatever it is, as I slowly moved from off of the first
• 3:24
  to the second or to the third, uh, like it said, you cannot dif- differentiate between the true from the false. Like, I would become this false self. You know what I'm saying? Like, early on,
• 3:39
  yeah, one beer allows me to loosen up and maybe, like, take the edge off, but all of a sudden, if I'm like three, four, five deep, suddenly I'm becoming someone that I'm not. Mm-hmm.
• 3:49
  It's not just this exaggeration of who I am. It's literally, like, this false self that's, that's beginning to emerge. Yeah. I don't know. How did you experience it when you would use? Mu- much the same.
• 3:58
  Like, there's, when you first said that sense of ease and comfort from the first drink, my immediate thought was, and then the second one, that's even better. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 4:07
  And there is, like, a happy, uh, I'll use the word happy 'cause I think it's appropriate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's, like, a happy middle ground- Right... at, you know, somewhere in two, three, four, where- Yeah...
• 4:17
  you become an amplified, you know, the sensation is an amplified version of yourself. Right. Where I do kinda just, [sighs] "I've arrived somewhere." Yeah. I, I'm okay in my own skin. But then
• 4:33
  at some point you crest this hill, and I did too. And almost from the beginning, I mean, I remember the, like, the first drinks I ever had, we were drinking Zima. You remember with Zima? [laughs] Oh, my God.
• 4:43
  And I drink Zima- I saw the fu- I saw the funniest meme... [laughs] I don't know. I'm sure it's out there somewhere on the interwebs. You could find it. Yeah. Um, but it's, it's got, like...
• 4:51
  It's, it's a Scooby-Doo thing. Yeah. And it's got, like, one of the pictures is like, "Let's find out who you really are," and it's, like, a can of White Claw.
• 4:58
  [laughs] And it, hold a White Claw up, and it's a Zima bottle underneath. [laughs] That's great. So yeah, it's classic. That's great. OG Zima drinks. Yes, yes. It's hilarious.
• 5:06
  But, but those were, like, I remember the very first ones where, you know, we got a six-pack probably or something. It's like, "Oh, okay, let's drink." Yeah.
• 5:14
  And you get through one, and it's like, "Okay, nothing's going on much. Kind of feel a little, I think I feel something." And, and then you keep going, but then you crest, and it's like,
• 5:25
  okay, this is, I start getting hazy and fuzzy. You know, the, the drunkenness- Yep... starts to set in. Yep, yep. And I did, I think that's a great description.
• 5:35
  You start becoming something that is not the version of yourself that you're meant to be. Right. Right. Um, and to me, the next morning is like a reset. I mean, I think that's the way it is for a lot of us.
• 5:49
  It's like, okay, reset. I can cut off who I became at the end of last night. Right. And then I'm right back to not admitting- Right... that it was injurious. Right. You know. Yeah.
• 6:00
  And a lot of times it wasn't as, you know- Sure... got through the night in high school- Sure... party and then on to the next day. Yeah, yeah. Sure. But immediately- It's like, "Oh, okay. Well,
• 6:10
  I, I think I, I can find that spot in between two, three, four again." Yep. Yep. And, and I was anxious to. Yep. You know, so- Yep, and you're, you're chasing that spot. Absolutely. Yeah.
• 6:20
  Right, with all the ones that come after that- Absolutely... you're chasing that feeling of like after three or four, you know, and you're, you're drinking more and more 'cause I wanna get back to this place.
• 6:27
  You keep adding two thinking that you're gonna- Yeah... subtract yourself back to where you wanted to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which just never works. Yeah. It's, it's, it...
• 6:34
  Yeah, and I think, like, the other thing I was, I was, um, that stood out to me is, like, his use of the word injurious. Because even- Mm... as a, as a doctor, um, I mean, all alcohol is is poison. Yeah.
• 6:48
  You know, and it's like the inability to recognize that I'm drinking, like, literal poison. Yeah. You know, that this is actually injurious behavior. Even ingesting one is injurious behavior- Mm... to a certain extent.
• 6:59
  Mm-hmm. Um, but to drink copious quantities is, it's ridiculous, I mean, what it does to your body. You know, it's, I don't know. It's just, it's, it's crazy. It's nuts. It's insane. It's insane. It's insane.
• 7:11
  And, you know, we're gonna come back to this idea of restless, irritable, and discontented- Mm... uh, again and again and again. I think that's just, like, that's part of the, part of the deal.
• 7:23
  Well, and, and last thing I'll say here is, is there's, there's was such an amplification of...
• 7:31
  It, it was a realization of the fact that I was looking for something that wasn't there when I began those first drink, first drinking days.
• 7:40
  I didn't realize that I was restless, irritable, and discontent until I had some alcohol or some fill-in-the-blank drugs, whatever. Yeah. And then I get to the reset to the next day and realize, oh, I,
• 7:53
  I was seeking something there, and I did find it for a minute, and I'm gonna go back to it. Right. And, and that just became uber amplified- Yeah, yeah... out of the gate for me. Yeah.
• 8:03
  No, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's great. All right.
• 8:06
  Uh, "After they succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful with a firm resolution not to drink again.
• 8:20
  This is repeated over and over, and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change, there is very little hope of his recovery." [imitates punching sounds] Smack in the face there. Yeah.
• 8:31
  Um, you know, and I have, like, over here quoted on here, it's like binging. Mm-hmm. The idea of binging, um, repeating it over and over again as the quantity just continues to increase. Um, and I mean, that just, like,
• 8:47
  you know, I mean, that resonates with me 100%. How long do you think it was before you started making these firm resolutions not to drink again? Oh. 'Cause that's, that's kind of hazy for me. That- Yeah...
• 9:01
  that was not super early. Right. But, but it didn't take a long time either for me- Right... to realize, okay, I- Right... they maybe not have been firm resolutions in the beginning. Yeah.
• 9:12
  But- Yeah, I can remember, like, being in high school, drinking- Mm...
• 9:16
  at parties and binge drinking and just getting freaking hammered and puking my brains out and waking up the next day and being like, "I'm not doing that again." Yeah.
• 9:24
  Um, with, I mean, I'm sure at the time it was, had seriousness attached to it, but probably no real seriousness. Um, but it's interesting, you know, I don't know that I ever had that
• 9:40
  experience when I became, let's say, a professional addict. Hmm. Um, you know, my, my using, it's, you know, it's so weird. Like, I had this, I don't know.
• 9:51
  I was talking to a colleague today briefly about this, but this idea that, like, no one really sets out to become what they become in addiction. And I can remember being a kid
• 10:03
  watching Miami Vice, uh, and watching this commercial. This was back in the freaking '80s.
• 10:11
  You know, as a kid, but watching this commercial and, and it said, like, "Nobody ever grows up to say they want to be a drug addict." Yeah.
• 10:18
  And I can remember, like, making, like, a vow with myself at, like, this young age of, like, 10 years old- Mm-hmm... of like, "I want to be a drug addict when I grow up." Hmm.
• 10:27
  Having no real com- like, no real idea of what I'm saying. Yeah. Um, and I think, like, once I became, like, a professional drug addict, I don't know that I ever had a problem with it.
• 10:41
  You know, and I think that speaks partly to the spiritual experience that I incurred in my using also, because, I mean, I was very much in touch with, like, the demonic- Mm... you know, and the occult at the time.
• 10:54
  And, and, and so I was inviting all of this sort of self-destruction in and w- with real no cause to stop it. Yeah. Um, so it was, it was weird. Like, man, when I was using up until the time I went to COPAC, uh,
• 11:12
  I mean, I, I don't know that it ever entered my brain, like, "I'm not gonna do this anymore. I'm gonna stop."
• 11:17
  It was more just like full board, like- So you had crested that becoming and then just started to invite it in. Yes. Like, "Okay, I'm, I'm there. Let's keep going." Totally. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
• 11:29
  It like, as it pertains to substance use, but also, like I was saying, as it pertained to the more, like, sinister, black, evil- Yeah... sort of stuff. Yeah. I was more than content to be the worst
• 11:43
  person that God had ever seen- Yeah... on the planet, and it was kind of like, "I'm gonna prove this out to me." You know, it was weird.
• 11:51
  It was weird just thinking about, like, those, those, that, that experience as a kid and really sort of making that declarative statement over myself- Hmm...
• 11:57
  not really understanding the consequences of what I was, uh, tying myself to, the vow that I was tying myself to. Wow. Yeah, it was wild. So that, yeah, like, no, I d- I don't know that I ever did. How about you?
• 12:10
  Like, did you hit these points in your using where you were like, "I'm never doing it again"? Yeah, I, see, I did. Yeah.
• 12:15
  And it was a constant, I don't know how firm of resolution I had either, but throughout my- You know, post high school for me it was like a year-and-a-half window until I went down to COPAC and sobered up.
• 12:29
  And I started really heavily drinking end of high school, kinda senior year, and, and I think the alcoholic tendencies were established there. You know, did pot and other stuff a- a little bit.
• 12:42
  But then it was really full-fledged into that next level of addiction, if you will- Yeah... post high school. Yeah. And it was during that period particularly, like in high school I was like, "What- whatever."
• 12:55
  I was, you know, giving the finger to my parents, you know, not, not really wanting to have anything to do with, uh, all, all the things. Uh, but during that second phase of the addiction for me,
• 13:07
  I, I reme- it was like a cyclical thing almost daily- Yeah, yeah...
• 13:12
  to where, okay, I'm gonna go get screwed up, I'm gonna get this, get that, get alcohol, get drugs, get pills, and then just become real remorseful by the end of the day. Yeah. Praying, like praying before I go to bed.
• 13:25
  Right. The classic foxholes, uh, stuff of- Right, yeah... you know, I don't wanna do this. Not every day, but, but I remember that as like the pattern and just being caught in- Mm-hmm...
• 13:35
  the vicious cycle of I don't wanna do this. Yeah, yeah. But I wanna do this. Right, right. And I, I can't imagine doing this again- Right... tomorrow. And then tomorrow comes, I can't imagine not doing it again. Yeah.
• 13:49
  Uh, what's the alternative? What am I going to... I, I need to become something. Mm-hmm. So I think there is a transformational aspect- Sure... that can lead to a dark place. Yeah, for sure.
• 14:00
  Or that can ultimately what we're being called towards- Right... lead to who we're supposed to grow into and become. Yeah.
• 14:08
  And I think, you know, I was, I was young, we were both young, but I do think the seeds of the, that, that good aspect of it were just rooted enough- Mm...
• 14:19
  in the surface level to where I, I knew that I was, I should- Yeah... try to cling onto this. Right, right. And I just, I just couldn't. Yeah. And I, and I will say like I think that's a much more traditional- Mm.
• 14:33
  That's the much more traditional pattern that occurs with most people who are addicts and alcoholics, is they do experience this shame and guilt post-use. Mm-hmm.
• 14:45
  You know, that, that typically produces some level of unmanageability that gets their attention. Yeah. You know, that does lead them to these thoughts of like, "Man, I've gotta do something about this.
• 14:54
  I've gotta like relent. You know, something's gotta give here." Right? But then you're caught with the mental craving the next day, you know, and it's just like the obsessiveness takes over.
• 15:06
  Um, you know, the, the, the ritual kicks in and then it's off to the races again. Mm. Man, this, this stuff is crazy. Brutal, man. People that do drugs. What about this, uh, psychic change, man?
• 15:18
  Like this, this statement I think is just power. Entire psychic change. Yeah, power, right?
• 15:22
  Uh, repeated over and over, "Unless this person, and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change, there is very little hope of his recovery." That's a serious statement. It's a big statement.
• 15:37
  And I've used it almost flippantly throughout my sobriety at times- Yeah... because it's become such a normal like aspect of what the process entails and requires. Like you gotta have a psychic change.
• 15:49
  You gotta have a psychic, you gotta work the steps so that you may have a psychic change, so that God can do for you what you can't do. All these things that- Yeah... kinda become mantras.
• 15:59
  I mean, they are mantras, uh, for, for better or worse in our heads. Uh, but I still think this is true.
• 16:07
  Like I don't think that an alcoholic, that a drug addict that I've seen can actually get better without this psychic change. Yeah. We talked a little bit about kind of the moral aspect of stuff- Mm-hmm...
• 16:20
  last week or, or week before. Mm-hmm, yeah. And, and I think that's wrapped up in this to a degree. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so like what's a psychic change? Like what does that, what does that even mean?
• 16:31
  So it's, the way I was explained this is it's a spiritual change that takes place as a result of the steps, where we're replacing our drive basically to become something and fill this hole in ourselves with the desires of the flesh, and we're replacing that with something else.
• 16:54
  In, in our case, it's God. It's a spiritual, uh, a spiritual way of life that somehow through the practical workings that the book details- Right...
• 17:04
  uh, gives enough ti- enough release, enough relief from just that constant, you know, the, the psychic part of it for me that needed changing first was I need to stop the gears turning up here that reset every morning and make me go want to get a fix.
• 17:21
  Yeah. And I need to put something, anything in there- Right... that's not all about me. And so it's, it's almost a redirection type of thing- Yeah...
• 17:32
  to where I, I really gotta get misdirected away from what I want and onto anything else, you, him, her, what- whatever. Yeah.
• 17:43
  So that hopefully I can, I can seek the ultimate power, the solution, God, to come in and, and change this, um, I mean this desire to, to, to become something that I'm not supposed to be. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 18:00
  Um, that, just, uh, that word is like, so part of that word like just reminds me of Miss Cleo. You remember Miss Cleo? No. Y'all remember Miss Cleo out there, Google her if you do. [laughs] Uh, she was a psychic.
• 18:12
  She was like one of those phone-in psychics. Oh. Miss Cleo. I was thinking- Call Miss Cleo... COPAC or somebody. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. Gotcha, gotcha. She was a, a, a phone-in psychic. It was hilarious.
• 18:20
  At one point in time, an apartment I had, the, uh, the neighbors when they moved out left their phone lines on. I don't know who you were. If this was you, I apologize. [laughs] Call me, I'll repay your bill.
• 18:31
  Um, but we, [laughs] we plugged into their phone line 'cause it was still active- Yes... and pulled the phone over into our apartment- Yes... and would sit there for hours calling Miss Cleo. Yes.
• 18:39
  And Miss Cleo charged like by the minute You know what I'm saying? [laughs] And, but, like, we'd be calling Miss Cleo. But that, that term, like, psychic change- Yeah... I think can be very, um... I don't know.
• 18:49
  Let- I'll just say it. I think it can be very confusing. Mm. And I think it can be very misleading, and I think it does have the potential to lead people down a path that, um, could potentially be dangerous. Mm.
• 19:01
  Because I think the way that you're reading into that idea of psychic change is how I would read into it, which is, like, a spiritual awakening, which I think the book references also. Yeah.
• 19:13
  Um, but this initial imprint of an entire psychic change, I think it's an interesting way to set the precedent for that. Mm. Because I agree with you.
• 19:21
  Like, to me, it was a spiritual change, you know, and, like, the Holy Spirit had to zap me for me to be able to, like, wake up and, and see the potential that the Lord wanted me to, to see.
• 19:32
  You know, to, to, I don't know, actualize the, the thing that I was to become. Mm-hmm. I had to be able to see it, and the only way I could see it was if, like, the indwelling Spirit allowed me to see it.
• 19:43
  Um, and so, like, when I read that, that's how I read it. You know what I'm saying? It's kinda like how you read it. Mm-hmm. Like, yeah, I need an entire psychic change. I need a spiritual awakening.
• 19:53
  Like, I need the Spirit to dwell in me so I can wake up with this stuff. Um, but I think, yeah, I don't know. That, that... I, I think that's a little bit, um,
• 20:02
  a little bit misleading, just the, the, the choice of word there. Um, but I, I, I do agree with this. Like, whether it's a psychic change, a spiritual change, or whatever kinda change, the second half of that's true.
• 20:16
  Uh, there is very little hope of his recovery. Yeah. Uh, I, I agree 100% with that. But that's...
• 20:22
  I guess that's my double jeopardy there, though, is if it's just a psychic change, there's still very little hope of recovery- Mm...
• 20:28
  in terms of, like, becoming that person that you desire to be or becoming that person that the Lord desires you to be. Um, yeah, you might get clean and sober 'cause I had a... I called Miss Cleo.
• 20:40
  You know, [laughs] she- [laughs] She helped me out, and I got clean and sober. Um, but do I have hope? Yeah. You know? I don't know. I don't know. What's that old-timey hymn?
• 20:54
  My hope is built in nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness. I don't know. I guess that's where I go with the whole thing. There's gotta be, gotta be some sustenance underneath- Oh, yeah...
• 21:02
  that psychic change stuff. I think so. I think so. This kinda... The, the other thing it kinda makes me think about is, like, brainwashing. Mm.
• 21:10
  You know, and you remember people, like, "Oh, hey, he's just brainwashing you." And of course, the comeback to that is, "Well, it freaking needs... I [laughs] needed a brainwashing." You needed a brainwashing.
• 21:19
  Um, a- among other things. Like, that's a starting point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but, but not an ending point to. Yeah, that's the type of language that, let's say, maybe two, three, four decades ago- Mm...
• 21:32
  the church would've latched onto and been like, "These guys are a cult." Yeah, yeah. You know, because they'd see a term like that and just be, to your point, like, "You guys are just being brainwashed," and- Mm...
• 21:43
  we would call 'em Miss Cleo all the time, the [laughs] get sober. Miss Cleo. Miss Cleo. Google Miss Cleo real quick. Yes. That was incredible.
• 21:49
  [laughs] Uh, on the other hand, [sniffs] and strange as this may seem to those who do not understand, once a psychic change has occurred, the very same person who seemed doomed, who had so many problems he despaired of ever solving them, suddenly finds himself easily able to control his desire for alcohol, the only effort necessary being that required to follow a few simple rules.
• 22:17
  Let's freaking go. Go, go. Let's freaking go. The s- the steps, baby, right there. Right? Um, I don't know. I feel like... Let's see. Yeah, that... I, I, I think that's... This is the hope. Mm. You know what I'm saying?
• 22:32
  I guess, like, you know, I'll sit with a lot of, of parents of, of addicts or alcoholics, or spouses of addicts or alcoholics, and I think, like, this is sort of the, the hope
• 22:43
  that, that I try to give to them, is that despite what it may look like, es- despite how doomed or hopeless or how bleak of a situation, that there is a solution. There is a way- Yeah...
• 22:58
  that this person can be helped, that not all is lost. Uh, and so I think, again, like, that's a... I don't know.
• 23:04
  This whole dang thing's chocked up full of good stuff, but I think that's a very important, uh, statement that can give a lot of hope for families.
• 23:11
  So despite all appearances to the contrary, because you've seen it, I've seen it, the people that you don't think are gonna last- That's right... at all- Oh, yeah... end up having psychic spiritual change,
• 23:24
  complete rearrangement of- Yeah... of their lives. Yeah. Provided... Now, this is a, a short sentence. Provided that they follow... What does it say?
• 23:33
  The only effort necessary being that required to follow a few simple rules. That's a short phrase with a world of meaning. Yeah.
• 23:42
  Like, to follow a few simple rules, to follow through with the steps, I mean, basically saying, "I... You gotta do this every day, one day at a time- Right... marching in that direction- Right...
• 23:54
  uh, to become a new creation- Yep, yep... and inviting him in to allow that to happen. So it's not like, it's not like it's just gonna pop, but- That's right... but the hope is there- Right... to your point. Right.
• 24:05
  And, and, you know, and we've also seen the flip being true of people. Okay, what, what's going on? They're still drinking. They're going back out. They look from the outside looking in- Mm-hmm...
• 24:17
  like, oh, everything's okay. Mm-hmm. But something has not occurred- Right... on the inside. Right. That's right. [laughs] I had a chick tell me, uh, years ago, um, she probably had... She was in the AA community.
• 24:28
  I for- I forget her name, uh, but, uh, knew her when I first started going to meetings, uh, down in Jackson. Mm.
• 24:36
  And, like, a few years went by and, and ran into her, and she's like, "Oh, I-" You're still, I, I figured you out [laughs] in the last- [laughs] It's like, "What, what the heck?" Yeah, yeah. That's funny.
• 24:48
  Um, but I mean, you case, I was casing prime. Right. Like, uh- Yeah, right... it, it'll work for even, even little old me. Yeah, yeah. No, agreed. I think, um, I mean, I can, I can certainly look at
• 24:59
  m- myself, my younger self, and be like, "There's no way that that would work." Yeah. Um, I think also, like, people can bucket this. Mm. This idea of, of, of rules. You know what I'm saying? For sure, for sure.
• 25:16
  And I, and I, I'm not trying to like, you know, rewrite the book by any means. Um, but there are plenty of personalities, there's plenty of people who would read that line and be like, "I'm not following these rules."
• 25:27
  Yeah. Says who? F that. You know, they've been, they've been maybe abused by rules, whether through the system or whether by the church or whether by their parents.
• 25:35
  [clears throat] You know, where they've run into these real authoritarian, like, do what I say or else type of- Mm-hmm... rules. Um, which has probably led them into their, their [laughs] drinking and using careers.
• 25:47
  Yeah. You know? Just sort of taking autonomy and taking control where they can, and being like, you know, "F you guys," right?
• 25:54
  Um, and so I think, like, that's a, that's a place also for, for us to be mindful, those of us who are trying to help people out, either through sponsorship or counseling or coaching, whatever that might look like.
• 26:06
  Um, that if we are too, I don't know, authoritarian with the rules, uh, it can really be off-putting. That's why I like the term steps. It's much more palatable. Well, interesting, right?
• 26:19
  Because we're hearing the doctor's opinion with verbiage like that. Yep. Where a little bit later we're gonna get into the step work- That's right... and, uh, the, their suggestions. Right.
• 26:29
  Like, I forget the exact wording- Yeah, yeah, yeah... and how it works, but I mean- Right... his suggestions. Right, right. They're good suggestions. Yeah. They're not even steps at that point. You ought to take them.
• 26:36
  They're just suggestions. But, but yeah. That's- Yeah, that's more-... that's kind of the attitude that- That's more palatable. Mm. I think. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 26:41
  Uh, "Men have cried out to me in sincere and despairing appeal, 'Doctor, I cannot go on like this. I have everything to live for. I must stop, but I cannot. You must help me.'
• 26:51
  Faced with this problem, if a doctor is honest with himself, he must sometimes feel his own inadequacy. Although he gives all that, although he gives all that is in him, it often is not enough.
• 27:02
  One feels that something more than human power is needed to produce the essential psychic change.
• 27:07
  Though the aggregate of recoveries resulting from psychiatric effort is considerable, we physicians must admit we have made little impression upon the problem as a whole.
• 27:16
  Many types, many types do not respond to the ordinary psychological approach." Yeah. My, my man Silkworth just reiterating- Yeah... his right place here. Yeah. You know, seeing the hope of this program- Right...
• 27:29
  but not overstepping, like, yeah, there's gonna be hospitalization- That's right... needed, like we talked about. Yeah, yeah. But it's, it's not gonna- Yeah... not gonna cure the problem. Yeah. Well, yeah.
• 27:38
  Just to, to touch on that briefly, um, you know, I'll, I'll work with some alcoholics who, who are that guy that's crying out, like, who's looking at me like, "I can't go on like this, but I can't stop." Mm-hmm.
• 27:50
  And it's, like, legitimate. You know, they've reached the level of dependency where they've, they, not just, like,
• 27:56
  not just the physical ramifications of dependency, but the psychological ramifications of it also, you know? And, and, and I, I firmly believe them. And sometimes
• 28:07
  the physician plays a essential role in that, either through detox, but also through drugs like Antabuse. Mm-hmm. You know, that, that, you know, cause you to get extremely sick when and if you choose to drink, you know?
• 28:19
  But I think if that's the only implementation to get the person sober, uh, they miss out on everything else that they're trying to gain. Yeah.
• 28:29
  Sure, they've stopped drinking, but like, yeah, they, they, they lose out on, like, recovery. Yeah. [laughs] You know what I'm saying? Like, they're- The, the substance of it. Yeah. Yeah.
• 28:39
  They're, they're, sure, they're sober or, or- To, to what end? Yeah, but not sober-minded. Yeah. You know? So yeah, just I, I don't know, thought that was kind of interesting.
• 28:49
  [inhales] Uh, "I do not hold with those who believe that alcoholism is entirely a problem of mental control.
• 28:55
  I have had many men who had, for example, worked a period of months on some problem or business deal which was to be settled on a certain date favorably to them.
• 29:04
  They took a drink a day or so prior to the date, and then the phenomenon of craving at once became paramount to all other interests so that the important appointment was not met. These men were not drinking to escape.
• 29:16
  They were drinking to overcome a craving beyond their mental control. There are many situations which arise out of the phenomenon of craving which cause men to make the supreme sacrifice rather than continue to fight."
• 29:29
  Where, where have you seen that occur in, in your career, your, your using career? Uh, suicides, man. Mm.
• 29:37
  You know, I had a guy I worked with, uh, and he was sober when he took his life, and, uh, I was working with him as a sponsor-sponsee relationship maybe 10, 15 years ago, and he was maybe a year or two sober.
• 29:53
  Um, and just- Mm... you know, he, he, he was not- Mm... not willing to go get honest about something. Yeah. Not willing to go through entirely with, with what the process requires. Um, and, you know, not the only one.
• 30:09
  That was the closest one to me- Yeah... uh, the, that made that supreme sacrifice. Right, right, right. [clears throat] Yeah. It's a very creative way of self-sabotage. Mm.
• 30:19
  You know, in the extreme situation like you're referring to, where there may be this thing that's unaddressed that's out there that the person has just been willing, unwilling to address. Mm-hmm.
• 30:28
  And it just reaches this, this just tension point that becomes unbearable to the poor guy- Mm... where he feels as though there is no other way, there is no other solution rather than, you know, taking the out. Mm-hmm.
• 30:43
  And then you also see it, uh, in like the self-sabotage in these very creative ways. Like, I'll see it in marriages. Hmm.
• 30:50
  You know, where there's this thing that could potentially be fixed in the marriage, but the person just sabotages- Yeah... it through their acting out or, or, or they're using- Hmm...
• 30:58
  or they're drinking, you know, even after they've put together some clean days. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, I mean, the reference of business, a business deal, I don't know that I've seen that exact one. Yeah.
• 31:08
  You know, but it's very, you know, we're, I mean, that's the cool thing about alcoholics and drug addicts, is that we are very crafty. We are. If nothing else. You know what I'm saying?
• 31:16
  Like, we're very, very crafty, and we get very, very creative to avoid things that we want to avoid.
• 31:23
  You know, and we can fool ourselves with all kinds of rationalizations and justifications and polarizations and minimizations and all the -izations that we want to in order to avoid the thing
• 31:35
  that we need to be confronting. You know? It's, it's the lying when the truth is easier situation. Yeah. Constantly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
• 31:44
  Just get, yeah, just d- but unknowingly or maybe even knowingly digging the hole- Mm-hmm... even deeper, you know? I dunno, it's, I don't know. We're creative. [laughs] We're creative people.
• 31:56
  [lips smack] Uh, all right, one more paragraph? Yep. "The classification of alcoholics seems most difficult and in much detail is outside the scope of this book.
• 32:05
  There are, of course, the psychopaths who are emotionally- Okay... unstable." I got lots to say about that. Mm-hmm. "We are all familiar with this type. They're always going on the wagon for keeps.
• 32:15
  [lips smack] Uh, they're over remorseful and make many resolutions, but never a decision." Um, let me, let me read this next paragraph too- Yeah... 'cause it, it ties right into that.
• 32:25
  "There's, there is the type of man who is unwilling to admit that he cannot take a drink. He plans various ways of drinking. He changes his brand or his environment.
• 32:34
  There's the type who always believes that after being entirely free from alcohol for a period of time, he can take a drink without danger.
• 32:41
  There's the manic depressive type, who is perhaps the least understood by his friends, and about him a whole chapter could be written.
• 32:48
  Then there are types entirely normal in every respect except for the effect alcohol has upon them. They're often able, intelligent, friendly people."
• 32:58
  Uh, I think that's a beautiful description there of lots of different types of, of, of- Hmm... of drunks. Uh, I mean, [lips smack] the one that I was
• 33:07
  that's got me into plenty of trouble over the course of my life, uh, there's the type who always believes that after being entirely free from alcohol for a period of time, he can take a drink without danger. Yeah.
• 33:19
  Uh, I mean, that's what got me back. Like, went at a COPAC, I'd convinced myself, like, "Oh, well, you know, I went to COPAC for drugs." Yeah. It's, well, this thing ain't a problem. Yeah. You know?
• 33:29
  And, and quickly turned my life into a, a, a tailspin of absolute turmoil. Um, you know, but then I think, like, it's interesting, like, he references the psychopaths, uh, who are emotionally unstable.
• 33:44
  I mean, I, I do believe that there are some people who cannot get sober. Hmm. Tell me I'm wrong. Uh, but I, I, I believe that. Um, I believe that you could give them every type of program,
• 33:58
  drug, pill, whatever, um, even psychic cleansing and spiritual experiences, and they couldn't get cleaned. Hmm. Um, you know, it's tragic and it's sad, but I think, like, I've, I've seen those types of guys before.
• 34:14
  Um, I can remember one I worked with in Mississippi who ended up drinking himself to death. Great guy. Super intelligent, super bright, super creative, wife and kids, you know, and he ended up dying in a hotel room,
• 34:29
  um, from vodka. Like, literally from vodka. Hmm. Not suicide, but drank himself to death. Um, and he's one of those guys that I think, like, he wasn't a psychopath. He just couldn't stop. Hmm. You know what I'm saying?
• 34:43
  He just couldn't stop. Um, and I think it, like, you know, that always impresses upon me, like, the seriousness of this, of this whole deal,
• 34:54
  you know, that there are plenty of people who wish that they could stop who cannot stop, for whatever reason.
• 35:00
  Uh, and you know, anytime we choose to go back out there, we're playing Russian roulette 'cause there, by the grace of God, go I. [lips smack] And you think it comes down, and I do, to honesty. Hmm.
• 35:11
  You know, that, that whole statement about constitutionally incapable- Hmm... of being honest with themselves. Hmm. The, those who don't recover- Mm-hmm... are constitutionally incapable of being honest. Mm-hmm.
• 35:21
  'Cause I think at the, like at the end of the day, if I'm, if I'm able to honestly take stock, maybe by myself, maybe with the help of counsel- Hmm... from friends or others- Mm-hmm...
• 35:32
  and, and actually honestly look at the state of things and the state of how, how they've gone so far off kilter. Yeah.
• 35:41
  Like, for me, that was, like, that was my treatment experience really, is, is that for the first time honestly took stock of things, accepted that they were completely screwed, and yeah, maybe I don't know everything.
• 35:54
  Shocker. [laughs] And, and start, like, making a bunch of wrong decisions, but roughly going in the right direction toward recovery. Yeah. Versus, um, I don't know if I...
• 36:06
  It's hard for me to swallow, like, there are people who cannot. Mm-hmm. Like- Mm-hmm... I, I think I've got too much optimism today to, to co-sign that, so- I'm here. [laughs] That's why I'm here.
• 36:18
  But, like, there's always- I mean, eternal optimist... like, there's always a, um, a chance, but I do, like, I do agree that, you know, at a certain point there's not. Yeah. Like- Yeah.
• 36:27
  And I think, like, so maybe, [sighs] maybe it's, like, a declaration or a vow. Hmm. Like, to your point, maybe there is this, this moment in time when the person is capable of being honest with themselves.
• 36:44
  But their life literally is dependent upon that moment and their ability to be honest. And if they choose not to be honest in that moment- Or even recognize the moment... sure, yeah, yeah.
• 36:55
  Even see it Or even recognize that moment and how crucial that moment is- Yeah... um, then I think, like, yeah, they can sort of be given over to their drink. Mm-hmm. You know? Or to their drug.
• 37:07
  Um, because, like, they were presented this, this momentary op- opportunity.
• 37:11
  I'm just thinking about the guy I was referencing a second ago, and, and yeah, I, I, I think there was probably a time in his life where he could have stopped- Mm... if he had been honest with himself. Mm.
• 37:22
  But by the time, uh, I met with him, by the time- Too late... he came to treatment- Yeah... uh, I mean, his skin was yellow. Yeah. You know? And, and, and his eyes were yellow and, and I mean,
• 37:34
  like his liver was basically gone at that point. Yeah. Uh, and so like he was faced with like, I don't know, the unfortunate reality that death is right around the corner.
• 37:47
  The moment [laughs], the moment for honesty may have passed him by. Yeah. You know? I mean, it's tragic to think about and it's sad to think about. Um, but s- but maybe there is sort of this like
• 37:59
  moment in time that the Lord gives to us where w- we decide, uh, not to take advantage of that opportunity and, and there could potentially be, uh, lifelong ramifications for that afterwards.
• 38:15
  Now let me just say as a quick point of clarification, this guy was a believer. Yeah. And I'm not referencing his salvation. I think his- Yeah... salvation was intact. Yeah. Um, I think he just died by his sin. Hmm.
• 38:24
  You know? And, and Christ's blood washed it away each and every day he was alive and, and I have no doubt he's sitting in eternity, and I can't wait to see him.
• 38:33
  Um, b- but yeah, and God, I mean, he's probably up there right now being like, "You're wrong, you moron." [laughs] Maybe. I don't know. Or, or I don't know.
• 38:41
  I, I, I think it will be an interesting conversation that I can have with him- Yeah... uh, when I get there of, of like was there that time?
• 38:47
  Was there that moment that you can reflect on now and go, "Yeah, that was my chance." Hmm. "That was my opportunity, and I fucked it. I fucked it up."
• 38:57
  'Cause I kinda think, looking at my shorter stint, I kinda think that, 'cause I went to treatment here before I went down to COPE HA- Mm-hmm...
• 39:05
  and so just in this conversation like, well, I, I guess, I guess this is, this is kinda tracking 'cause I had a pause. Mm. I had an opportunity, and then right back on, and another pause, and then it took- Right...
• 39:20
  so to speak. Right, right. And I wonder if there's just finite amounts of opportunity. Sure. I mean, there are, right? Yeah, for sure. It's just a matter of how many, who gets and- Sure, yeah... how far you progress.
• 39:29
  And maybe it doesn't even have to be like I died by my alcohol, but like all of a sudden I got in a car wreck and died- Mm-hmm... 'cause I was drunk. Yeah. Or I OD'd 'cause I got some bad dope. Yeah.
• 39:39
  Or, or whatever it is, you know, but, but your, your, your sort of like your end of life is directly correlated to your, uh, substance- Yeah... you know, and your substance use. So yeah, I don't know. There's a lot.
• 39:51
  I don't know. Whatever. It's interesting. Speaking of end of life. Are we done? Are we done? Are we done with the podcast forever? [laughs] Are we gonna do it again? Are we gonna come back? Absolutely.
• 40:02
  Please tell us about it. We will, we will come back- Please tell us about it... from the dead. All right. We may even do a voice, a phone call in on the next one. Yeah. Our schedules are gonna be- Yeah...
• 40:10
  a little bit tight for a couple weeks. Yeah, I think that will be very interesting. Yeah. Stay tuned. Yeah, yeah. Ladies and gents- Just wait. Just wait...
• 40:16
  for the surprise that could potentially be occurring- [laughs]... next time we meet. All right, always a pleasure. Awesome. Enjoyed it. Thank you all. [upbeat music] Hey, thanks for listening.
• 40:24
  You can find more information about this show as well as the daily newsletter over at progressandperfection.com. Have a great one.