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Killer Thriller: The Capture of the Green River Killer · Legally Brunette

0:06
Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ.
0:07
Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan.
0:13
Speaker 1: Hey everyone, Elisa Donovan here back with a new episode
0:17
Speaker 1: of Killer Thriller, where we examine the crossroads between the
0:22
Speaker 1: true crime dramas that we find ourselves addicted to and
0:25
Speaker 1: the real stories behind them. So today I'd like to
0:30
Speaker 1: report I am in beautiful Maui with my family on
0:34
Speaker 1: a little getaway, quick trip vacation. But my priority is
0:39
Speaker 1: to deliver this episode to you all. So I look
0:43
Speaker 1: a little crazy, but I think we're going to have
0:47
Speaker 1: an incredible, incredible episode today because we are going to
0:52
Speaker 1: dive into a true crime story that wow, it just
0:57
Speaker 1: stays with you long long after the credit role. And
1:01
Speaker 1: this is one of the most chilling serial killer cases
1:06
Speaker 1: in US history. And this story is told not just
1:09
Speaker 1: through the search for the killer, but through the lives
1:12
Speaker 1: caught in the middle of it all. And our guest
1:14
Speaker 1: today I am ecstatic to announce is Sharon Lawrence, actress, singer, dancer,
1:22
Speaker 1: best known for her iconic and Emmy nominated role as
1:26
Speaker 1: Adya Sylvia Costas Sipowitz on NYPD Blue. You may also
1:31
Speaker 1: know her from roles in Desperate Housewives One Tree Hill
1:34
Speaker 1: for voicing Scarlet Reynolds an American dad, but today she's
1:39
Speaker 1: here to talk about her role in the capture of
1:42
Speaker 1: the Green River Killer. This is a two thousand and
1:45
Speaker 1: eight mini series that follows the nearly twenty year hunt
1:50
Speaker 1: for Gary Ridgeway, the man responsible for the murders of
1:53
Speaker 1: dozens of women in Washington State, and the detectives who
1:58
Speaker 1: just refused to walk away from the case. Sharon played
2:02
Speaker 1: the mother of a fictionalized character that was created to
2:06
Speaker 1: honor the real victims, and today she's talking with us
2:09
Speaker 1: about stepping into a true crime story with real weight
2:13
Speaker 1: behind it. We're going to get into what she knew
2:15
Speaker 1: about the case before, what it was like telling this
2:18
Speaker 1: story while the killer is still alive, and how working
2:21
Speaker 1: on something this dark can stay with you long after
2:26
Speaker 1: the camera stop rolling. So please welcome Sharon Lawrence.
2:31
Speaker 2: Hi, Alisa, So nice to be with you.
2:34
Speaker 1: So nice to see you. Thank you so much for
2:37
Speaker 1: spending your time with us today. This is one of
2:44
Speaker 1: the most disturbing cases, probably that I have ever heard of,
2:51
Speaker 1: and I'm just really excited to dive into this with you.
2:57
Speaker 1: So let's just start with how much did you actually
2:59
Speaker 1: know about the case before you signed on.
3:03
Speaker 2: I didn't really know much. And I was interested in
3:09
Speaker 2: playing this because I knew the lead actress, Amy Davidson.
3:12
Speaker 2: We were friends, oh colleagues. We had done something years,
3:18
Speaker 2: probably just a year prior or so, and I was
3:24
Speaker 2: very impressed by her desire to evolve her artistry. Yep,
3:31
Speaker 2: and Amy, if those of you who aren't familiar with her,
3:35
Speaker 2: was one of the daughters on Three Simple Rules, Yes, Quoco,
3:40
Speaker 2: who was also a friend of mine. I played her
3:42
Speaker 2: mother in sitcom and that show, Three Simple Rules was
3:49
Speaker 2: a sitcom and Amy had great theatrical chops and a
3:54
Speaker 2: play that we did together, So I knew her taking
3:57
Speaker 2: on this challenge of playing a character that really gives
4:02
Speaker 2: us an insight into the psychology of not just a
4:05
Speaker 2: victim in this tragic serial killer truth, but also young
4:13
Speaker 2: girls that choose a path of prostitution, of being on
4:18
Speaker 2: the streets the way that we don't understand, and her
4:22
Speaker 2: her capacity for honesty and vulnerability and somebody that you
4:29
Speaker 2: just trust inherently was a great choice for cast casting.
4:35
Speaker 2: So I thought, Wow, how great to be part of
4:40
Speaker 2: this to watch her. I also loved that the director
4:43
Speaker 2: of this was a woman. Norma Bailey, one of the
4:47
Speaker 2: most established directors in the Canadian film world. Uh. Norma
4:55
Speaker 2: was one of the first directors that had come through
4:59
Speaker 2: the the ranks in Canada's burgeoning film industry. And my
5:05
Speaker 2: history as being part of Women in Films Leadership, the
5:09
Speaker 2: US networking and advocacy group for Females in our Business
5:16
Speaker 2: had drawn me to say yes to working with women
5:20
Speaker 2: at any level, every level. So that's another Those two
5:25
Speaker 2: reasons were what compelled me more so than the story.
5:28
Speaker 1: Frankly, right, I love this so much because, first of all,
5:32
Speaker 1: I was going to say, you and Amy actually look
5:34
Speaker 1: as though you could be mother and daughter. And I
5:38
Speaker 1: really understand that desire for her to break out of
5:43
Speaker 1: what you've been known for. And that's something that as
5:47
Speaker 1: actors in general, but certainly as younger actors, we these
5:53
Speaker 1: sorts of films, the TV movies at the time especially,
5:58
Speaker 1: really allowed you to explore a whole different area where
6:03
Speaker 1: you might not be able to do that in sort
6:06
Speaker 1: of your certainly, and you're in a TV series sort
6:09
Speaker 1: of life or in another kind of film. So I
6:13
Speaker 1: love that, and I also you know you and I
6:15
Speaker 1: both know it is still a very small pool of
6:19
Speaker 1: women that are directing television and film. And I remember
6:23
Speaker 1: very distinctly the female directors that I worked with in television,
6:28
Speaker 1: never in Canada, but American TV, and it's you know,
6:31
Speaker 1: they're few and far between, and it's I love that
6:35
Speaker 1: those are the reasons. That is not what I would
6:37
Speaker 1: have expected. So do you think that having Norma as
6:41
Speaker 1: obviously being a woman directing this, what sort of impact
6:45
Speaker 1: do you think that had on the actual storytelling?
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Speaker 2: So many ways? And let's also consider and I'm sorry
6:53
Speaker 2: that I don't know who is responsible for this, but
6:57
Speaker 2: I bet that we can find this out who it
7:00
Speaker 2: was that chose to green light this story in the
7:04
Speaker 2: way that it was told. And this is a good
7:07
Speaker 2: time to examine the fact that it's a two part
7:12
Speaker 2: mini series. That's important because not only was Gary Ridge
7:19
Speaker 2: at Rain decades long? Right, was it close to thirty
7:25
Speaker 2: years that he was Yeah?
7:27
Speaker 1: Over twenty over twenty yeah before they Yeah, that.
7:32
Speaker 2: Deserves more than ninety minutes streetelling if you take out commercials,
7:38
Speaker 2: two nights of this, and that's important whoever said yes
7:43
Speaker 2: at the studio and network level, because it's a big
7:46
Speaker 2: commitment for a network.
7:47
Speaker 1: Yes, instead of trying to truncate it or get it
7:50
Speaker 1: done as quickly as possible, and you lose so much nuance.
7:53
Speaker 1: That's something that I really appreciated about this that well,
7:57
Speaker 1: first of all, let's make sure everybody knows that you're
8:00
Speaker 1: your character is fictional and created, as is Amy's, but
8:03
Speaker 1: you're really there to represent the lives and the souls
8:08
Speaker 1: and the spirits of all of the victims. So that's
8:12
Speaker 1: one of pretty big you know, wait to carry there,
8:18
Speaker 1: And how did you feel about did you personally feel
8:22
Speaker 1: that as Okay, I really need to do justice to
8:26
Speaker 1: this for these people, of.
8:29
Speaker 2: Course, of course, and the script compelled me so much
8:34
Speaker 2: because it was written with the homage to that wonderful
8:40
Speaker 2: and heartbreaking novel The Lovely Bones. Yes, yes, yes, And
8:44
Speaker 2: so if you aren't familiar with that, the storytelling of
8:48
Speaker 2: the woman who the young woman who lost her life,
8:52
Speaker 2: I want to call her more than just a victim,
8:55
Speaker 2: because that's what that novel reveals, as does John peel Meyer,
9:02
Speaker 2: the screenwriter's take on The Green River Killer. It's told
9:08
Speaker 2: through the eyes of the women, one in particular that
9:12
Speaker 2: Amy's Davidson's character is focused on. We learn about her,
9:19
Speaker 2: we don't just see the result of this time. We
9:25
Speaker 2: learn about all of the choices and the steps along
9:31
Speaker 2: the way that put her on this path with this monster,
9:35
Speaker 2: and the sensitivity within this story, paired with the horror
9:41
Speaker 2: of the truth, I found so rewarding and moving when
9:45
Speaker 2: I went back to watch it based on your invitation
9:48
Speaker 2: to be be a guest, because we understand through the
9:54
Speaker 2: narration of philosophy that a young woman who feels discarded, yes, disvalued, abused,
10:05
Speaker 2: discarded by society in a way that doesn't give her
10:12
Speaker 2: and all of those women in Seattle at the time
10:16
Speaker 2: who were taken a real I think importance in this story.
10:21
Speaker 2: The news stories, whereas they always are sensationalized, they were
10:26
Speaker 2: sex workers. That's an important thing to talk about in
10:29
Speaker 2: this particular story. You might have mentioned it in your intro,
10:32
Speaker 2: but that's who he prayed he was targeting. So it's
10:37
Speaker 2: easy to think, well, these gals had it coming, But
10:40
Speaker 2: why were they there in the first place. Yes, that
10:42
Speaker 2: character is examined through a tenderness and an inner monologue,
10:49
Speaker 2: an evolution that John peel Meyer gave it. John peel
10:54
Speaker 2: Meyer is an amazing playwright. Agnes God is one of
10:58
Speaker 2: his most famous plays and that is an examination of
11:03
Speaker 2: nuns in a cloistered culture who are experiencing psychological trauma
11:13
Speaker 2: and abuse at the hands of the men in the
11:19
Speaker 2: Catholic leadership, priests and even the women who are protecting them.
11:24
Speaker 1: He's really a feminist writer that people. I don't feel
11:27
Speaker 1: like he's ever characterized that way, but he truly is
11:31
Speaker 1: one of the og feminist writers.
11:34
Speaker 2: Yes, he's a man. And here's something else that your
11:37
Speaker 2: viewers and listeners may not know. He plays Gary Wridgwell
11:43
Speaker 2: in this mini series. The man who wrote it plays
11:47
Speaker 2: the Green River Killer, and his performance is staggering.
12:06
Speaker 1: You know, I've watched a lot of the documentary footage
12:10
Speaker 1: of this man and it is uncanny the you know,
12:16
Speaker 1: the sort of the I was going to say the
12:19
Speaker 1: soul of the character, but or the lack thereof he is.
12:23
Speaker 1: He really captures something that that that was in this
12:28
Speaker 1: man in real life. It's so.
12:31
Speaker 2: Well, you know what I think it is as is
12:35
Speaker 2: very potent when you're examining the profile and how interesting
12:42
Speaker 2: this story was that the FBI expert got it all wrong.
12:46
Speaker 1: Got it all wrong, got it all wrong.
12:49
Speaker 2: And they were searching for you know what is it?
12:52
Speaker 1: Text? Some big guy who was, you know.
12:55
Speaker 2: A capacity, the physical.
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Speaker 1: Loner, didn't have a wife, didn't have any of the things.
13:02
Speaker 2: It was literally the opposite, right, And who did get
13:05
Speaker 2: it right as Ted Bundy. They spoke with him and
13:08
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy nailed it.
13:11
Speaker 1: Yep. That's one of the most bizarre things that they
13:15
Speaker 1: go to speak with Ted Bundy in prison to get
13:18
Speaker 1: his input on how to find this serial killer. And
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Speaker 1: I also know you're talking about just going back to
13:25
Speaker 1: what you said before. You know, one of my questions
13:28
Speaker 1: was going to be how much agency do you think
13:33
Speaker 1: that TV movies should have over changing the truth and
13:38
Speaker 1: not exactly being true to the facts. But you said
13:43
Speaker 1: it so beautifully that this story, the way it's told,
13:46
Speaker 1: it actually is enhanced by not only using the facts,
13:51
Speaker 1: by creating these women, you have the ability to tell
13:54
Speaker 1: a fuller story actually and make it not just about
13:58
Speaker 1: the numbers and the the violence and the actual crime itself.
14:04
Speaker 2: Yes, and to see the family dynamic that was created
14:11
Speaker 2: in our particular family, the lack of resources, a family
14:20
Speaker 2: living on the edges where any moment that a paycheck
14:25
Speaker 2: doesn't come through, they live in a mobile home that
14:33
Speaker 2: those while it the set the artists, pardon me, the design,
14:39
Speaker 2: the production design. I remember walking in net that set
14:46
Speaker 2: and seeing the care. If you look at at Amy's
14:51
Speaker 2: character's bedroom, the lonely vintage lamp and her rooms, it's
14:58
Speaker 2: a girl's room. Her mother is trying. Her mother wanted
15:02
Speaker 2: to give her a sense of home. And as Amy's
15:07
Speaker 2: character says, this mother chooses men badly. She goes through men.
15:13
Speaker 2: And it's not about sex with her, this mother. It's
15:17
Speaker 2: about security and a man in their lives, even a
15:24
Speaker 2: bad man who rapes her daughter in their home. And
15:31
Speaker 2: this mother refuses to believe it. You know, she knows
15:34
Speaker 2: it's true, right, but she punishes her daughter for saying
15:39
Speaker 2: the truth. She defends this man because that's her survival.
15:46
Speaker 2: She's a waitress and living on the edge. And it's
15:50
Speaker 2: an existential moment for this mother that she chooses something
15:56
Speaker 2: that is unconscionable. But I think we all know that
16:03
Speaker 2: women without agency often make decisions yes are tragic. And
16:10
Speaker 2: then sadly, her daughter hooks up with a guy who
16:15
Speaker 2: will only use her.
16:19
Speaker 1: Yep, And this reveals how hurt people hurt people, and
16:24
Speaker 1: abused people just go into that same cycle of abuse.
16:28
Speaker 2: And then Na talks about that. The voiceover this young
16:34
Speaker 2: girl is a real philosopher, right right, she is thinking
16:38
Speaker 2: things through and fate is the big theme. It's Greek
16:44
Speaker 2: tragedy in a way. Fate. Are we responsible for our
16:48
Speaker 2: for what happens to us? Or are we merely on
16:52
Speaker 2: the train for the ride and nothing is going to
16:55
Speaker 2: stop it? And how do you reconcile when you realize
17:00
Speaker 2: both things are true?
17:02
Speaker 1: Right?
17:03
Speaker 2: Right, both things are true? And how you reconcile living
17:07
Speaker 2: in a culture where liars like Gary Ridgewell, he was
17:14
Speaker 2: a great liar. You see this in our story, and
17:19
Speaker 2: you see it because they caught him. You know they
17:21
Speaker 2: got him because he's so convincing.
17:25
Speaker 1: Right. And then once he is actually caught in the
17:30
Speaker 1: documentary footage that I've watched, you see this man tell
17:34
Speaker 1: a lie straight to them. His face does not change.
17:38
Speaker 1: And then they say, well, we know you're lying because
17:40
Speaker 1: of this, and he says, right by yeah, and here's why,
17:45
Speaker 1: and then gives an explanation of why. It's what really
17:50
Speaker 1: strikes me about all of these cases, but this one
17:53
Speaker 1: really in particular for both people, for the victims and
17:57
Speaker 1: for Gary Bridgeway himself. It's everybody it's all about needing
18:03
Speaker 1: love and care and mattering right, and the when you
18:09
Speaker 1: don't have that or when you have it in a
18:12
Speaker 1: very twisted and warped way, how that can inform your life.
18:18
Speaker 1: And it's really sort of it's just jarring. It's very
18:22
Speaker 1: moving because it's the simplest thing ever, but it's actually
18:28
Speaker 1: the most important part of being human.
18:31
Speaker 2: I want to read something to you. Amy and I
18:34
Speaker 2: are connected in a lot of ways, and not believe it.
18:37
Speaker 2: She's by one of my dear friends who has now
18:42
Speaker 2: become one of the top acting.
18:44
Speaker 1: Coaches, Lee Lee Hilton Smith.
18:47
Speaker 2: Lee coached Amy, I believe. When I was invited to
18:52
Speaker 2: do this, I thought, let me just reach out and
18:54
Speaker 2: maybe I'll talk to Amy too at some point, because
18:56
Speaker 2: she could speak more for herself than.
18:58
Speaker 1: I love that. Yes, but.
19:01
Speaker 2: Lee, I said, do you remember were you part of this?
19:03
Speaker 2: And she said, yeah, I think so. But and I
19:06
Speaker 2: told her that I was coming to do this, and
19:08
Speaker 2: I even ask you, I want to be on a podcast.
19:10
Speaker 2: I don't know whether she would because she's very protective
19:14
Speaker 2: of the way she walks science. But I'm going to
19:16
Speaker 2: read something to you that is directly related to what
19:21
Speaker 2: you just said. How do we get in their minds
19:25
Speaker 2: what they meaning? The people that are capable of this,
19:30
Speaker 2: I think we know so many people who are who
19:34
Speaker 2: are professional liars, who are compulsive, and they are sociopathic, narcissists,
19:43
Speaker 2: and they are at the highest levels of everything, certainly
19:48
Speaker 2: in our culture yep. But someone who is who will
19:54
Speaker 2: be led to murder and the kind of murder that
19:57
Speaker 2: this man dies did is worth noting to figure out
20:03
Speaker 2: the psychology that what they were saying to themselves to
20:07
Speaker 2: justify their actions. She at least worked on a couple
20:11
Speaker 2: of these, so again she may be worth checking in with.
20:16
Speaker 1: That.
20:18
Speaker 2: Even people like Ted Bundy, they to figure out their
20:21
Speaker 2: psychology and what motivates the parts of themselves that were
20:25
Speaker 2: broken that needed validation, and as Li says, it's fascinating
20:31
Speaker 2: for me to figure out, not to figure out, but
20:34
Speaker 2: to realize in research that they are bearing levels of
20:39
Speaker 2: personal accomplishment.
20:42
Speaker 1: Yes.
20:43
Speaker 2: Yes, depending on how someone murders another person, Strangulation is
20:49
Speaker 2: one thing because it's usually done from behind, which is
20:52
Speaker 2: what the Green River killer did yep. And there are
20:56
Speaker 2: other other modes of killing that you know are even
21:00
Speaker 2: more personal because they have to do with being face
21:03
Speaker 2: to face right, and not with a weapon that is
21:09
Speaker 2: close and personal. When someone is feeling small and so
21:14
Speaker 2: many aggressive crime scenes are moted by a feeling or
21:19
Speaker 2: a fear of being inconsequential, there is a connection there.
21:24
Speaker 2: If they feel inconsequential, then they can use this action
21:30
Speaker 2: to feel consequential. It's not just hunting, right, success.
21:34
Speaker 1: Yes, success actually being acknowledged for yeah, their achievements. It
21:42
Speaker 1: is you know, this is why I'm so fascinated by
21:47
Speaker 1: these things. You know, people can say this is like
21:49
Speaker 1: a morbid fascination. It really is about the human condition
21:54
Speaker 1: and right, what we are capable as capable of as
22:00
Speaker 1: human beings, of beautiful, great grand things and horrific things.
22:06
Speaker 1: And I always think, you know, it's shortsighted for us
22:11
Speaker 1: to kind of say put people in these bockets that,
22:16
Speaker 1: oh that person's just crazy. You know, they've done horrible things,
22:19
Speaker 1: they're just crazy. It's really how did we get there?
22:23
Speaker 1: We are all human beings, and so this is again
22:27
Speaker 1: why I really feel like this particular series really aims
22:33
Speaker 1: to focus in on that how did we get there?
22:38
Speaker 1: How did these women come to this decision to be
22:42
Speaker 1: where they are? Or oftentimes you know, they don't have
22:46
Speaker 1: any they have no other way to go.
22:50
Speaker 2: Yes, I as I was watching it. What also rang
22:54
Speaker 2: so true is they were in this story manipulate by men.
23:00
Speaker 2: This young this young gal is abused by the man
23:03
Speaker 2: that her mother brings in the house.
23:06
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. And she has no other reference, right.
23:09
Speaker 2: That's and then she chooses. She falls in love with
23:13
Speaker 2: a very charming, sexy young guy who you think, well,
23:17
Speaker 2: they're they're they're they're matched in ways that makes sense.
23:22
Speaker 2: And he's a drug addict, and he he pimps her
23:26
Speaker 2: to get drugs. He sleeps with somebody else, not somebody
23:31
Speaker 2: that she cares about, not somebody who forces themselves upon her.
23:35
Speaker 2: But she makes a choice to give up her body
23:39
Speaker 2: for the sake of a guy who who she does love,
23:43
Speaker 2: who she does trust, and who is also hooking her
23:46
Speaker 2: on drugs and the manipulation of men. The killer to
23:56
Speaker 2: make these young women think that he's safe. He's on
24:00
Speaker 2: a suite, he talks about his kids, he talks about
24:03
Speaker 2: his wife.
24:03
Speaker 1: I was so struck by that that that is really
24:06
Speaker 1: it's so diabolical to carry a picture of your child
24:13
Speaker 1: to put these women at ease. So did you once
24:16
Speaker 1: you didn't? I know you said at the start that
24:20
Speaker 1: you didn't know much about the case before you started
24:23
Speaker 1: the series, but did you do research on it at
24:26
Speaker 1: that point? How much did you learn? Did you want
24:29
Speaker 1: to know more or did you want to keep it
24:32
Speaker 1: more about just the story of you and your daughter
24:35
Speaker 1: in a script?
24:36
Speaker 2: Of course, I read the script, so you know, you
24:39
Speaker 2: never don't do a movie without reading the script. And
24:42
Speaker 2: that script was enough for me to understand I'm serving
24:48
Speaker 2: something dark, but my role in it is about that
24:56
Speaker 2: the average person miss saying what's going on right underneath
25:04
Speaker 2: their eyes, and the desperation that people who are on
25:12
Speaker 2: the edges of security or insecurity with your economic status
25:20
Speaker 2: walk through all the time, and how you have to deflect.
25:24
Speaker 2: You can't let all of the threats come in because
25:28
Speaker 2: you would be worn out. Yes, I was playing during
25:32
Speaker 2: that time. I'd been playing and I still do a
25:36
Speaker 2: lot of polished women, women of privilege, women who had access,
25:42
Speaker 2: women who were strong, who had their own agency. This
25:45
Speaker 2: character doesn't, and that was interesting for me. I'm the
25:48
Speaker 2: character actress, so I always am grateful for the opportunity
25:53
Speaker 2: to explore something else, and I don't think at that point, Yeah,
25:58
Speaker 2: I hadn't started playing being killers myself, and now I
26:01
Speaker 2: have played quite a few killers.
26:17
Speaker 1: This is another question I wanted to ask you. You know,
26:20
Speaker 1: I don't think I have ever played someone. First of all,
26:24
Speaker 1: I've never played somebody who's a real person who existed
26:27
Speaker 1: in history. But nor have I played someone who is
26:31
Speaker 1: so like the circumstances are so dark and so bleak.
26:36
Speaker 1: So how did that? How did it or didn't it
26:41
Speaker 1: stay with you on the on the daily, both while
26:44
Speaker 1: you're on set, but then in the aftermath, like, how
26:47
Speaker 1: did it impact your.
26:49
Speaker 2: You possibly shooting this, I remember, I remember the pain
26:56
Speaker 2: of hurting Amy, and my character hurts hers physically and psychologically.
27:07
Speaker 2: And I remember in that mobile home the tenderness with
27:13
Speaker 2: which it was decorated, the homeliness that was there, and
27:17
Speaker 2: the compression of the size of the space and how
27:21
Speaker 2: trapped they felt. And then at the end when she's gone.
27:27
Speaker 2: We worked hard on my character going from presentational and
27:32
Speaker 2: going out into the world and trying to look younger
27:35
Speaker 2: than she is and dressed up for her waitress job,
27:40
Speaker 2: chose frosted lip gloss that I chose to put on
27:46
Speaker 2: while she wants to tell me something really hard and
27:49
Speaker 2: I'm rushing and I'm so self involved that I never
27:53
Speaker 2: even I ask what's wrong, but I don't take the
27:55
Speaker 2: time to listen. I don't really want to know. And
27:59
Speaker 2: by the end I see this woman who has is
28:02
Speaker 2: paying the price for her ignorance, for her willful ignorance.
28:07
Speaker 2: And we chose to have me sitting on the outside
28:12
Speaker 2: of the trailer on a step which you want here
28:16
Speaker 2: come in and out of. She's she's on the outside
28:19
Speaker 2: of her life now and once again she's putting something
28:23
Speaker 2: to her mouth to silence the thoughts, to soothe, and
28:29
Speaker 2: it's this time it's a long nick yep beer.
28:33
Speaker 1: The feeling that I got in watching that was this
28:38
Speaker 1: this woman who comes out of that tiny space and
28:42
Speaker 1: now is sitting outside with this expansive world around her,
28:48
Speaker 1: and she is downloading. She doesn't really have anything now,
28:53
Speaker 1: like she's lost so much and all of that space
28:58
Speaker 1: is just the vast us around her and she doesn't
29:03
Speaker 1: she doesn't she's lost her child. It's a really poignant
29:07
Speaker 1: it's a very uh. Yeah, I think it's just a
29:11
Speaker 1: great choice.
29:12
Speaker 2: That was normal, right, you know, normally it was Yeah.
29:15
Speaker 2: I don't know whether it was. I can't can't remember
29:17
Speaker 2: if it was in the script that way. But Norma
29:20
Speaker 2: saw it and we shot on a day we were shooting.
29:23
Speaker 2: We shot in Winnipeg, Canada, which is the That's the
29:26
Speaker 2: Prairie if you don't know, Yeah, Manitoba, it's the prairie.
29:35
Speaker 2: And there it was the summer and there was a
29:38
Speaker 2: huge storm coming up and you could see the clouds,
29:43
Speaker 2: the gray just rolling in. And she knew that light
29:49
Speaker 2: because that's where she's from. She knew the lights exactly right.
29:54
Speaker 2: It was foreboding, It was heavy, and it's the mood
29:59
Speaker 2: that we all need to wrap this thing up. And
30:04
Speaker 2: it also looks like the Pacific northwest, right, it doesn't hit.
30:07
Speaker 1: Oh, definitely. Yeah.
30:09
Speaker 2: The ions in the air are.
30:11
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, dense right, that dense green and yeah, yeah.
30:18
Speaker 1: How did it feel too, be shooting this and knowing
30:24
Speaker 1: that this man is still alive that while you're I mean,
30:30
Speaker 1: there are so many parts of this that just must
30:33
Speaker 1: have been a lot to metabolize.
30:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I hadn't seen John's portrayal at that point,
30:42
Speaker 2: so I wasn't. I didn't feel as connected to Gary
30:48
Speaker 2: Killer as I did to the Green River and the
30:51
Speaker 2: people who live there whose lives he affected. They are
30:56
Speaker 2: really smart, smart in sit into the narrative about how
31:02
Speaker 2: many lives this man's actions touched. The families, of course,
31:10
Speaker 2: of those who were lost to his actions, but the
31:14
Speaker 2: teams of detectives and the judicial system members who were
31:20
Speaker 2: working and failing and struggling and obsessed. I just want
31:25
Speaker 2: to shout out. Every performance in this movie is so anchored.
31:31
Speaker 2: It's again because we have the luxury of storytelling time
31:36
Speaker 2: that you see, they can the camera can rest with someone,
31:40
Speaker 2: the camera can reveal how they're haunted in the middle
31:43
Speaker 2: of the night wondering why can't they crack this, why
31:46
Speaker 2: can't they figure out? Tom Cavanaugh is so beautifully honest.
31:52
Speaker 2: He plays the lead detective, Yes, lead detective who was
31:57
Speaker 2: as a father. He's a religious man. You know, faith
32:01
Speaker 2: is a big part of this story. Yes, he refers
32:05
Speaker 2: to his faith. His daughter, his wife says at one
32:08
Speaker 2: point when he's brought these pictures home, and she says,
32:11
Speaker 2: you said you weren't going to bring this into our home,
32:14
Speaker 2: into our house. They have young kids, and she says
32:18
Speaker 2: that with a question. He said why, and she says,
32:22
Speaker 2: you need help, And he says, I pray every day
32:26
Speaker 2: and it's just it's sincere honest, and she said, I'm
32:29
Speaker 2: not talking about that you need to get a new computer,
32:36
Speaker 2: but he is relying on his faith. He needs help
32:41
Speaker 2: and he's going to faith for that.
32:44
Speaker 1: And I also felt it was really interesting how you know,
32:49
Speaker 1: as you say, this man has children and small children
32:52
Speaker 1: in the home, and so how do you Number one,
32:54
Speaker 1: you can't separate at a certain point, work and life,
32:57
Speaker 1: home life, they are always going to mesh in some regard,
33:02
Speaker 1: but also this idea of how do you share horrific
33:08
Speaker 1: things with children? Right? You can't completely shield them from it, right,
33:15
Speaker 1: and then at a certain point you have to be
33:17
Speaker 1: able to And I know this from my own experience
33:20
Speaker 1: of friends having very very tragic things happen that we
33:24
Speaker 1: have had to share with our daughter. And you know,
33:29
Speaker 1: you can't just shield it and act like everything's fine,
33:32
Speaker 1: because kids know. Kids understand instinctually when something does not
33:36
Speaker 1: feel right, so you can't lie to them. But you
33:39
Speaker 1: also don't want to just dump all of this information
33:42
Speaker 1: on them. And I loved that scene where his daughter
33:45
Speaker 1: comes up to him, you know, and says something to
33:48
Speaker 1: the effect of Daddy, like, I'm proud of you are
33:52
Speaker 1: I understand what you're doing and you get this says
33:54
Speaker 1: that this child knows he's doing something very very challenging
34:00
Speaker 1: and very dark, but it's important. And I thought that
34:04
Speaker 1: was beautiful.
34:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it makes me think of the series
34:07
Speaker 2: that I'm called Joe Picket. It's about a game warden
34:13
Speaker 2: in Wyoming who ends up solving crimes and murders. And
34:19
Speaker 2: it's a it's a wonderful best selling novel series, and
34:23
Speaker 2: we did two seasons on Paramount Plus. And he's a
34:29
Speaker 2: family man and crime ends up coming to his to him,
34:34
Speaker 2: to his family. You think about what kids who are
34:40
Speaker 2: exposed to crimes see, and in this story Joe Picket,
34:49
Speaker 2: what draws him to being a protector is that he
34:52
Speaker 2: himself grew up in an abusive household. Right, And that's
34:56
Speaker 2: the same thing.
34:56
Speaker 1: That's the same story with Tom.
35:00
Speaker 2: So we we know kids live it now. I mean
35:06
Speaker 2: the media exposes them all the time, everything, right, you
35:09
Speaker 2: know the world. How do you protect the innocence? I'm
35:15
Speaker 2: not sure? But what you what you get in this
35:18
Speaker 2: story is someone who grew up with that wound, that damage,
35:27
Speaker 2: and and how that becomes his secret now his superpower,
35:32
Speaker 2: not secret, but his superpower, right, right, And we need
35:38
Speaker 2: those heroes. We need the broken, the wounded warriors.
35:42
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I think that that gives so much. Those
35:48
Speaker 1: are the things that I'm interested in, is you know,
35:53
Speaker 1: what we all go through as human beings and the
35:55
Speaker 1: You know this certainly in American culture also, we don't
35:58
Speaker 1: like to talk about difficult things, and we like everything
36:01
Speaker 1: to be very tied up and pretty and young and petite,
36:07
Speaker 1: and you know, life is just simply not that. And
36:11
Speaker 1: when we don't incorporate all of the good and the bad,
36:17
Speaker 1: you know, there's great hope and going through challenge and
36:21
Speaker 1: seeing someone who can overcome that, not only overcome it,
36:25
Speaker 1: but actually use what they went through in order to
36:32
Speaker 1: inform their life in a positive way and to influence
36:35
Speaker 1: other people, like to actually use the difficulty to come
36:40
Speaker 1: through the other side. I think it's just a beautiful
36:42
Speaker 1: message and an important one.
36:44
Speaker 2: And it's what fairy tales, the good Ones, grit Ye did,
36:49
Speaker 2: and those Greek tragedies Esophocles, Eschylus, Euripides, they write about murder, patricide.
36:59
Speaker 2: It's there. It's in all of those stories, these ancient
37:03
Speaker 2: stories when our humans were were gathering to understand themselves.
37:13
Speaker 2: What catharsis is used and meant to do. And then
37:19
Speaker 2: Grim's recognized it. You know, the European culture new to
37:25
Speaker 2: put it in the context for children, right, right, we
37:31
Speaker 2: find it now in a lot of ways in Marvel.
37:35
Speaker 1: Right.
37:36
Speaker 2: We keep telling these stories. We need to keep telling
37:39
Speaker 2: these stories. And AI. I just was seeing something on
37:43
Speaker 2: my today about AI chat bots that come into the
37:52
Speaker 2: lives of young people, sayteen fourteen, fifteen, Yes, at the
37:57
Speaker 2: time when they need to be able to explore the
38:05
Speaker 2: flaws in their judgment, to prepare them to make decisions
38:10
Speaker 2: on their own. Yes, not maybe prior to that age,
38:14
Speaker 2: but that age. As they are developing independence and thinking,
38:18
Speaker 2: they need pushback, they need challenged. And these AI bots
38:23
Speaker 2: are sycophantic. Yes, you're right about everything.
38:27
Speaker 1: Everything you do is right everything. Yes, oh, I agree.
38:32
Speaker 2: That will handicap them as they grow older. In the
38:35
Speaker 2: real world. It isn't about protecting all the time. Sometimes
38:39
Speaker 2: it's just exposing and exploring and managing consequences with them.
38:45
Speaker 2: That's why it's such a tight rope to be a
38:48
Speaker 2: parent now. But we are uncharted territory with our younger
38:55
Speaker 2: members of our culture being shielded in a way that.
39:00
Speaker 1: Does not serve is handicapping them. I think that it
39:03
Speaker 1: was exactly the right word. I boy, do I think
39:07
Speaker 1: about this on a daily basis. And my daughter's thirteen,
39:11
Speaker 1: so she's right in the heart of it. So just
39:14
Speaker 1: a last couple of questions, So, how do you what's
39:20
Speaker 1: your feeling on closure? So in terms of you know,
39:27
Speaker 1: so the detective has said recently because Gary Ridgeway now
39:32
Speaker 1: is apparently very close to death, but he's still in
39:36
Speaker 1: prison obviously. And I think someone asked Dave Reikert, the detective,
39:45
Speaker 1: you know, how does he feel about closure? Does he
39:48
Speaker 1: think that's going to give the victims family's closure? And
39:51
Speaker 1: I mean he says no, I agree. How do you
39:56
Speaker 1: feel about this idea of closure after some thing like this?
40:01
Speaker 2: I had two Yeah, I have two thoughts. Vengeance is
40:06
Speaker 2: a very satisfying emotion. It is very It's as human
40:10
Speaker 2: as any other that we have, right, I mean, road rage,
40:14
Speaker 2: we get it, We understand you. You want to protect
40:19
Speaker 2: these people will not get it. And he pled guilty.
40:25
Speaker 2: He turned himself and and and and he he solved
40:28
Speaker 2: the he helped answer the questions. So there's that at
40:32
Speaker 2: least they know the rights, loved ones knew and they
40:36
Speaker 2: needed to.
40:36
Speaker 1: Know which was we should say, I'm not sure in
40:39
Speaker 1: case some of the listeners don't know they they gave
40:43
Speaker 1: him that particular plea in order to give some of
40:48
Speaker 1: the victim's family some sort of, if not closure and
40:52
Speaker 1: understanding of what happened to their loved one.
40:55
Speaker 2: So they knew their loved one was indeed the victim.
40:58
Speaker 2: This is where they died, This how they died. That
41:00
Speaker 2: sounds horrific, but also I think we know through psychology
41:04
Speaker 2: not knowing can be worse. Yes, rest, yes you never
41:10
Speaker 2: get to rest, so that I don't think it was
41:14
Speaker 2: a wrong call for the judicial system to offer that.
41:19
Speaker 2: What I also know from my psychiatrist's husband is that
41:24
Speaker 2: many people who are behind bars will never have Those
41:27
Speaker 2: who are guilty will never have remorse. It's not possible.
41:31
Speaker 2: They do not live there. There are people who will
41:35
Speaker 2: never feel that. The sociopathic narcissist again that we have
41:43
Speaker 2: populated with we make decisions for the rest of the
41:49
Speaker 2: world currently currently remorse, they have no empathy. They We
41:54
Speaker 2: will never change that about them. Our job is to
42:00
Speaker 2: foster empathy, to foster understanding, to foster healthy environment so
42:08
Speaker 2: that young people that are perhaps on that path may
42:12
Speaker 2: have an intervention right earlier, sooner rather than later. I
42:17
Speaker 2: did a movie, a true story, crime story that I produced.
42:22
Speaker 2: Giancarlo Esposito and I starred in a television film called
42:26
Speaker 2: Five Desperate Hours, a true story of a man who
42:31
Speaker 2: invaded a woman's home while she was there. He was
42:33
Speaker 2: running from the law. He held her captive in Durham,
42:37
Speaker 2: North Carolina. She was a duke professor. She just happened
42:40
Speaker 2: to be home. He chose the door that he was
42:44
Speaker 2: entering not because he knew she was there, because he
42:47
Speaker 2: was running from the cops. He had stolen a car
42:50
Speaker 2: and was being chased. And they got to know each
42:53
Speaker 2: other in that five hour period, and she not only
42:57
Speaker 2: helped him surrender, but was there through his trial. She
43:06
Speaker 2: wasn't the one who was pressing charges. It was the
43:10
Speaker 2: person whose car he had taken and the robbery that
43:13
Speaker 2: he had committed prior to He was desperate. He was desperate,
43:17
Speaker 2: and he tried to take his own life in their home.
43:21
Speaker 2: In that home, it was the anniversary of his brother's
43:24
Speaker 2: suicide that was creating this storm within him on the
43:29
Speaker 2: day that he committed this crime, And she herself had
43:32
Speaker 2: understood that because she herself had tried to take her
43:35
Speaker 2: own life at one point they bonded this And we
43:39
Speaker 2: tell this story because the conclusion to it is that
43:43
Speaker 2: they stayed close even while he was wow prison sentence,
43:47
Speaker 2: which wasn't long, but significant, and that understanding these two
43:52
Speaker 2: people were so vastly different, had something in common.
43:56
Speaker 1: Yes, that humanness, the ability to actually connect with another
44:00
Speaker 1: human being, is what is the saving grace of life.
44:06
Speaker 2: And these I wonder if the people who lost their
44:10
Speaker 2: fam their their loved one to the Green River killer,
44:13
Speaker 2: if they found each other through the trial, if they
44:16
Speaker 2: stayed in touch, if they were able to share the unspeakable,
44:20
Speaker 2: the horrific that nobody else will understand. That may be
44:23
Speaker 2: where the healing understanding comes far more than a sense
44:27
Speaker 2: of closure. That that Gary Rittel will ever feel anything.
44:33
Speaker 2: Him being gone may not shift for anyone nearly as
44:38
Speaker 2: much as sharing an understanding of loss right somebody who's
44:44
Speaker 2: been through it.
45:00
Speaker 1: Sharon, you're just the best.
45:02
Speaker 2: I'm so pleased to be part of this. Thank you
45:04
Speaker 2: for inviting me. My role it is not big, but
45:07
Speaker 2: my examination, my appreciation, my understanding of this is increased
45:12
Speaker 2: by your interest in this. And I tell you, people
45:16
Speaker 2: should take some time and watch this because it is
45:22
Speaker 2: it's human nature and tenderness, the good and the bad
45:28
Speaker 2: in a very very poetically told story. And I give
45:32
Speaker 2: all credit to the people that wrote it, John Pielmeyer,
45:35
Speaker 2: that directed it, Norma Bailey, the actors who phenomenal cast
45:41
Speaker 2: allround life into it and took in a real hard truth.
45:49
Speaker 2: Give it back to us with the humanity that helps
45:52
Speaker 2: us understand each other.
45:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, people can check it out at streaming on
45:58
Speaker 1: several different platforms. The capture of the Green River Killer.
46:02
Speaker 1: Sharon Lawrence, your sparkling star. I am so happy that
46:07
Speaker 1: you spent this time with us today. And is there
46:12
Speaker 1: anything where can people find you? Is there anything else
46:14
Speaker 1: you wanted to put out there?
46:18
Speaker 2: Well, I mentioned Five Desperate Hours. You can find that
46:21
Speaker 2: on YouTube. Benjeane Carlo Weisposito.
46:24
Speaker 1: Well he is amazing.
46:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, what else do I need to say? And I
46:29
Speaker 2: talked about Joe Pickett because that's a wonderful show. Michael Dorman.
46:33
Speaker 2: If you know Michael Dorman, he was in for All Mankind,
46:35
Speaker 2: he was in Yes Patriot on Amazon hit playing a
46:40
Speaker 2: reluctant serial killer. He's on I think it's called Frontier
46:44
Speaker 2: and Australian series. He's great. David Allen Greer is in
46:48
Speaker 2: that series.
46:50
Speaker 1: I love David. Yes.
46:52
Speaker 2: Julianne Gwill Skywalker Hughes, who you'll hear more about. She's
46:57
Speaker 2: in the New Little House on the Prairie, but she's
47:00
Speaker 2: Miild in ours. She's a tween now, a child in
47:03
Speaker 2: ours who who goes through some interesting stuff as as
47:07
Speaker 2: I was saying, you know children who witness hard things
47:11
Speaker 2: and how that's processed. I'm in a play in New
47:14
Speaker 2: York and January called pen Pals Loving Story, a very loving, loving.
47:18
Speaker 1: Story, beautiful ware. What theater.
47:20
Speaker 2: It's at the Daryl Roth Theater. I'll be there January
47:23
Speaker 2: seventh through the eighteenth. Marie McCormick and I are starring
47:26
Speaker 2: together in this story of women who were connected as
47:31
Speaker 2: pen pals. They were fourteen years old in nineteen forty
47:33
Speaker 2: eight and they stayed pen pals four a long time.
47:37
Speaker 2: One is in New New Jersey and the others in Sheffield, England.
47:40
Speaker 2: So we bring oh beautiful truth to this and it's great.
47:43
Speaker 2: The hallmark of it all is wrapping up now, but
47:46
Speaker 2: you can always find some good comfort in Hallmark's. Mine
47:50
Speaker 2: is the Grand Old Opry Christmas, we filmed the one
47:53
Speaker 2: hundred year anniversary of the Grand Old Opry and I
47:56
Speaker 2: got to live at the Opry basically for a week,
47:59
Speaker 2: and we featured that that very American institution. So well.
48:06
Speaker 2: And then I'll be doing Steel Magnolias, a play at
48:10
Speaker 2: Playmaker's Repertory Theater in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. That's my
48:15
Speaker 2: alma mater. You unc Chapel Hill.
48:17
Speaker 1: Oh really, yes, wait when are you doing that? My
48:20
Speaker 1: family is now in North Carolina, so they live in Pinehurst.
48:23
Speaker 2: Fantastic. It's an easy drive. We run April the eighth
48:27
Speaker 2: through the twenty sixth. Beth Grant, who you may know,
48:30
Speaker 2: oh greatest character actress. Yes, I art, will be in
48:34
Speaker 2: that play.
48:35
Speaker 1: Fantastic.
48:36
Speaker 2: And I will continue to do a solo play about
48:39
Speaker 2: Catherine Graham that I've been doing for a while called
48:41
Speaker 2: The Shot. It's an important story about the publisher of
48:46
Speaker 2: the Washington Post who was publisher during the Watergate eras
48:50
Speaker 2: and the great but it's the story of her personal life,
48:54
Speaker 2: the struggles that she had. Her husband had bipolar disorder
48:57
Speaker 2: and took his life six three and three days later,
49:01
Speaker 2: she took over the Post, but she suffered a great
49:04
Speaker 2: deal with his his suffering, and we understand how she
49:09
Speaker 2: became the woman that she is, a reluctant but powerful
49:13
Speaker 2: leader because of the struggles that she faced. So I'm
49:15
Speaker 2: very proud of that. That piece, which well dates, will
49:19
Speaker 2: be determined for Okay, I've been doing it for five
49:21
Speaker 2: years now, so great. It's out there.
49:23
Speaker 1: And you'll put it out. Your social media is at
49:26
Speaker 1: Sharon E. Lawrence.
49:27
Speaker 2: Sharon E stand for Elizabeth. That's that's my name, my mama.
49:31
Speaker 2: Every once in a while when she was calling to
49:34
Speaker 2: be from back of the house to come home, it
49:37
Speaker 2: was Sharon Lisbeth.
49:42
Speaker 1: Oh, well, thank you again so much. This has been
49:45
Speaker 1: an absolute pleasure. You're such a pro and a lovely spirit,
49:49
Speaker 1: and I am honored that you are here today with me.
49:52
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, and I love that we have
49:53
Speaker 2: Lee Hilton Smith in common. She's be worth worth talking to.
49:58
Speaker 1: She I'm going to contact her now.
50:00
Speaker 2: Congratulations on this.
50:02
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you so much.
50:04
Speaker 2: I enjoyed our time.
50:05
Speaker 1: Love hate me too.
50:07
Speaker 2: Bye.
50:09
Speaker 1: I want to hear what cases you all are interested
50:11
Speaker 1: in hearing about. What are you watching that you want
50:14
Speaker 1: us to talk about? What actors or producers or directors
50:17
Speaker 1: do you want to hear from, Hit us up in
50:19
Speaker 1: our DMS at Killer Thriller Pod on Instagram and TikTok
50:24
Speaker 1: and let us know and make sure to follow the
50:26
Speaker 1: pod on socials and subscribe to Amy and TJ Presents
50:30
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to podcasts. And that will wrap us
50:34
Speaker 1: up for today until next time.