Latest / The Death Of Journalism / Episode One Hundred Fifty Six: Back On Team Trump

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Episode One Hundred Fifty Six: Back On Team Trump · The Death Of Journalism

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Welcome to episode number one hundred and fifty six of the Death of Journalism podcast.
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My name is John Zigler. I'm your host on today's show. Political
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consultant and my friend Steve Cortes returns to the podcast for an extensive interview about
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the polling he is conducting on the twenty twenty four elections and a discussion about
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the sad state of the sport of football. Now, before I did the
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interview with Steve Cortes, what you're about to hear in a moment, I
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had anticipated doing about an hour or so of a normal Death of Journalism podcast,
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But the Cortes interview is so good and went longer than I expected that
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I decided that I was going to call an audible since we talked a lot
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about football, and I would run this interview as basically the entire episode number
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one hundred and fifty six, understanding that we're heading into Memorial Day weekend and
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that there's not likely to be a whole lot of news knock on wood,
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because if there is, that probably means something really bad has happened between now
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and our next episode, which would be just after Memorial Day. So what
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I'm going to do is I'm going to table what I had planned for episode
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number one hundred and fifty six, and that will be the essence of our
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post Memorial Day podcast. And instead we'll just play the Steve Cortes interview for
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this particular episode, which will actually work in a number of different ways,
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because a lot of one I wanted to talk about, news wise, is
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discussed in the interview, specifically the developments in the Trump trial, which appears
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to be coming to a close, and who knows, we may even have
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a verdict in the next few days. We don't know that yet, but
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the testimony in the case has ended. There was a lot of controversy about
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all of that, and Steve and I did talk about that about two thirds
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of the way through this particular interview. So if you're unfamiliar with Steve,
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Steve is a political consultant who has worked for both Donald Trump and the Ron
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De Santis Political Action Committee. He is strongly supporting Donald Trump. Used to
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be a very close advisor to Trump. That obviously ended when he decided to
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go work for rond De Santis, something that I actually urged him not to
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do because I did not think that DeSantis was going to win. Unfortunately I
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turned out to be right about that. But Steve is very much involved in
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this presidential campaign independently, because he has been the director of this very well
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funded effort to pull the key states in this election, and he's already done
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a lot of polling in the swing states, and he has a couple polls
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that are outstanding, including in Nevada and in Nebraska's second congressional district, which
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should be out any day now. We had hoped that maybe those results would
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be in before this interview. That did not happen, But I'm pretty certain
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by the next episode of the podcast, I'll be able to give you the
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results of the most recent polls that Steve Cortez has been directing in the field
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on behalf of his allies as political allies and donors, and so that will
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be very very interesting to see what happens there. We do discuss that in
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this interview and the importance of the second congressional district in Nebraska and how it
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could theoretically even determine the winner of this presidential election. So, without further
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ado, here is about a two hour interview with Steve Cortes on a whole
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bunch of different topics related to the twenty twenty four presidential election, the senatorial
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elections, and then a pretty interesting and unique discussion about the state of football,
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both from the pro side as well as the college perspective. So here
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was my interview with Steve Cortez. Steve Cortes, Welcome back to the Death
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of Journalism podcast. John. I'm thrilled to be here. I think I'm
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your first guest to be on three times, and the reason I know that,
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by the way, is because I listened so diligently to every single episode.
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What you do is incredible. I'm your biggest fan and I'm honored to
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be I guess you are the first three time guest. You're also the first
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subscriber to be a guest, so you get the privilege of paying to hear
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yourself in the next episode of the podcast. So we appreciate that very much.
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There's a lot to get to and one of the reasons why I asked
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to come on is that I have referenced on the podcast as I'm sure you
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know that you are still engaged in this race, even though you're not officially
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with Ron de Santas or Donald Trump. Anymore. You have been participating and
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basically managing a series of polls that have been focused on both the presidential race
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and the Senate races. Give us a sense of what you've been doing and
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how you got involved in that. Yes, So since I left the Ron
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DeSantis effort, I am fully on board with Donald Trump. I wrote an
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hotbed saying as much. You know, literally, I published it the day
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after the Iowa caucus, and that was my promise to the Dessanta's campaign,
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is that I would effectively go quiet for a while, which I did in
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late twenty twenty three, but that I would endorse the who I thought at
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that time would be the nominee, and of course has become the nominee,
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Donald Trump. So I'm working on behalf of Donald Trump. I'm not working
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for Donald Trump, but I'm working on behalf of him, and there are
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organizations and donors who believe in this effort and what we're doing more than anything
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else. We're doing a lot of things, but we're doing more than anything
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is extensive pulling of the battleground states and really drilling down on what issues,
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what metrics, what is going to move voters in the states that will matter
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to win this election for Donald Trump. So I'm doing that full time,
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and folks out there who are listening in the audience will see a lot more
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of me in the coming months on the air. I'm getting back on TV
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more and talking about my polling and how we can use the polling. Number
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One, we want to find out where voters are, so we're using it
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in terms of intelligence. Okay, where are voters and how can we move
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them if they're not in the place that we already think they should be as
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far as the issues. But then number two, how do we use this
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polling as a messaging tool, as a messaging device to convince persuadable people to
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get out and vote for Donald Trump. And obviously you and I have different
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views of Trump, but I am and look, I hope I have credibility
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on this issue because I took enormous personal risk, enormous personal angst, quite
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frankly, in going against him in the primary after having worked for him for
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seven years prior to twenty twenty three. A sycophant. As a matter of
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fact, I'm the opposite of that. I think I'm somebody who takes a
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very rational look at Donald Trump. I think my history. I hope my
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history proves that. But I'm also somebody who wants the best for this country,
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and I believe that the best for this country in November is to elect
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Donald Trump. All right, Now, your polling basically the same states that
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everybody else is. What have you found that is similar to other polls that
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we've seen, And what, if anything have you found that is different?
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Yeah, no, listen, it's so it's a great question. And by
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the way, this is a pleasure for me because I've been a consumer of
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polls for forever, not forever, but since I got into politics, you
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know, with Trump since twenty sixteen, and a voracious you know, reader
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of polls and you know, and student of polls. Now I'm actually getting
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to direct the polls. This is something I haven't done before. So I'm
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learning a heck of a lot as we go, and it's it's fascinating and
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wonderful to have budget, to have the ability to pull and to do it
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correctly, by the way, I mean, and believe me, these are
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not push polls. I'm not trying to cook the books. You know,
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we are getting representative samples in all of these states, We're using highly credible
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polling firms to do our polling. We want to know where things are,
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not where we want them to be in terms of the polls. And but
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to directly answer your question, what we're what we are finding that that coincides
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or you know, corroborates what's being broadly out there, you know, uh
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messaged through corporate media, is that Trump has a substantial lead in all of
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these states. He either has a lead I shouldn't say, let me qualify
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that. Yeah, he has a substantial lead in the sun Belt states and
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he is tied in the Upper Midwest. That's what we are finding. And
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but I'm going to give us credit. I'm gonna give myself credit quite frankly,
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John, I was ahead of that. Okay, we were early on
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that game. And I just put an article up folks want to see,
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you know where I give sort of the receipts on this. And it's a
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bit of a brag piece, to be honest, but I think deservedly so
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we were ahead of this in terms of our polling. And now, for
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example, CBS polling New York Times, Siena, which is really kind of
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the gold standard as far as mainstream media polling goes and look, I hate
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the New York Times. Okay, I will not say, you know,
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you'll have to press me to say something nice, but New York Times,
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but they do their polling pretty well. They're coming to the same place where
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we have already been for quite a while, which is that in the Sun
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belt states of Nevada, Arizona, Georgia, North Carolina, Trump's lead is
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large. I mean, it is substantial. It's a commanding lead in those
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states, and then he's at least tied in the upper Midwest states the matter,
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which are Wisconsin and Michigan and Pennsylvania, where I will tell you where
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we are different, so that we're the same as mainstream media on those polls.
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I would argue that we were early, and I'll boast that we were
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early, But where we are different is in terms of the subgroups. What
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we are showing, and this is really fascinating to me, is a massive
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move move towards Trump among both Hispanics and young voters. And Hispanics matters a
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ton to me. Hispanic It's what I did for Trump, largely for the
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seven years that I worked for him, you know, either officially or unofficially
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was was voter outreach to the Hispanic community. Trump made fantastic gains in that
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regard, but more broadly than just Trump, the America First Movement, the
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Republican Party has made fantastic inroads with Hispanics. I have not seen that broadcast
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other places besides the polling that I'm doing, and for example, what we
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saw let me be you know, specific on this, just in the state
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of Georgia, where we showed Trump up ten. A few days after we
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published our number, New York Times posts their number which was also Trump up
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ten. That overall number is super impressive, of course for the forty fifth
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president, but we actually showed among Hispanics he's up thirteen. And we don't
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expect him to outperform among Hispanics. That has not historically been the norm.
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He's done great among his Spanis, but he hasn't outperformed you know, the
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broad total. And by the way, a lot of folks out there might
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say, well, it's Georgia very Hispanic, believe it or not, it
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is. Yes, the Southeast. I live in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Right
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now, the Southeast is becoming increasingly Latino because where the jobs are okay,
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and my people were workers, okay, and the Hispanic go where the jobs
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are. And so Georgia, for example, is ten percent Latino. There's
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almost one point one million Hispanics, which I think would probably shock a lot
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of people. In the state of Georgia, there were almost none. Thirty
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years ago, there were fewer than a half million. The year two thousand,
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it had doubled by twenty ten and now nearly one point one million.
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So anyway, my point is really important group. There obviously crucial group in
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places like Arizona and Nevada. So that that's one big difference. And then
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the other big difference, which I mentioned is young voters and John I'll be
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honest here, I'm not sure we can sustain this until election day and we'll
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see. But my Georgia polling and we again we pulled a sample universe that
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was exactly evenly split between Trump and Biden twenty twenty voters. We showed Trump
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up seventeen among eighteen to thirty four year olds. Now, some of that
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clearly is dissatisfaction with Biden on Gaza, and our polling did show that as
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well, but it gets much bigger than that it's just that. Look,
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I think we're becoming increasingly in economy unfortunately in this country of the haves and
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the have nots, and in general, the halves are older people, are
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people who own substantial stocks in real estate, and this is a great economy
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for them. But that's a relatively small slice of America. And for the
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strivers, which includes almost all young people, this is a terrible, terrible
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economy, and they're fleeing and drove from Biden and my poland Chelson. As
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you know, Steve, I'm always looking for, Okay, what would be
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the reason why Trump would be leading in twenty twenty four in a place where
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he lost in twenty twenty And I have a theory, which I'm pretty sure
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you know about, involving Nevada and Arizona dealing with migration from California. I
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want to get to that in a moment. But that obviously is not a
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major factor of a factor at all in Georgia. So in Georgia, the
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only rational explanation would be minority groups flipping towards Donald Trump. And while the
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Hispanic community is, as you say, probably more significant there than perceived,
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obviously the black community is much much larger in Georgia are seeing Are you seeing
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any indication that this narrative that Trump is making inroads with black voters to be
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real? And is that part of why he's gone from basically a dead heat
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in Georgia in twenty twenty to as I've already said months ago, as you
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probably remember, I gave him Georgia barring a black swan event. And now
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the polling is panning out exactly as I predicted, with him up ten points
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in most not all. There's a new Bloomberg poll out that I think it
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has him up by five if you include RFK Junior. But he's up in
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every single Georgia poll. He hasn't lost a Georgia pole in the entire cycle
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yet. Are you seeing that in your polling with regard to black voters?
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Well, John, first, let me congratulate you. You did call Georgia
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very very early for Trump. Obviously I think you were correct. Then I
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hope you're correct on election date. You know, we'll see, but you
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are very prescient in your commentary and your predictions. Let me answer the questions
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specifically, thought, No, we are not seeing a big uptick among black
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voters. So that's interesting. And by the way, the upticks that we
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are seeing in my polling are among black men who historically really don't vote or
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you know, don't vote in the frequency that we would need for that to
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move the new So there's a lot of folks on the political right who continue
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to believe that we're going to have massive gains in the black beauty. I'm
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one person who say that's not I do not believe that. Okay, I
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don't believe that, and my polling does not show that that is accurate.
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We are making massive gains among Hispanics, massive games. That is moving the
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needle, the gains that we are making, and we're gaining, but the
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games that we are making among black voters tend to be almost exclusively black men,
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and historically they don't vote. So I don't think that's going to be
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the decisive difference. I will tell you this, here's what I so.
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But okay, so, how do I explain Georgia? Then you know it's
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it's one name Lake and Riley that explains the difference. And we pulled this
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and I did this very specifically. I pulled because we sort of go west
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to east in our polling so we had previously pulled Arizona, Wisconsin, and
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then we went to Georgia. And my thesis was, let's pull the Lake
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and Riley story. How much do people know about it? And my thesis
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was outside of right wing people, most citizens frankly don't know about it because
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the media, quite purposefully, the corporate media sat on that story, ignored
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that story you always talk about. You know, it's not just get what
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gets reported, it's what gets repeated. Right, if they did report the
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Lake and Riley story, they sure as heck didn't repeat it because it was
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terrible for their narrative right that an illegal alien in this country who was twice
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arrested not just committed the crime of trespassing in the United States, but twice
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arrested in so called sanctuary cities New York City and Athens, Georgia, that
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he, in the middle of broad daylight, brutally murdered a young, beautiful
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American girl, Lake and Riley, who was jogging on the campus of the
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University of Georgia. My thesis was that story was not known, and my
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polling in Arizona and Wisconsin showed that to be the case. Outside of right
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wing voters it was not known. Now if it is known, I think
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quite rightly blame Joe Biden for her death. In the state of Georgia,
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not surprisingly because it happened there. That story is known far, far more
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than the other swing states, and they do blame Joe Biden for it.
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So I believe that that is the key difference as far as Georgia is specifically
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and John, I think there's a lot of women, particularly mothers especially,
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who quite rightly believe, Look, I may not love Donald Trump, you
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know, to put it mildly right, they might have massive problems with Donald
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Trump, but they also recognize that what Joe Biden is doing is literally putting
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my family at risk. And if I have children, if I have college
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children, if I have daughters who are teenagers or in their twenties, they
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are literally at physical risk. They are in physical danger because of Joe Biden,
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and that is moving the needle. And again, I think that's one
17:57
way that Trump wins an election, even though he is admittedly a very flawed
18:03
candidate against somebody who I actually ran a gather real supported running against in the
18:08
primary. But I believe it's one of the foundational reasons that he will in
18:12
fact win in the fall. All Right, So North Carolina and Georgia right
18:18
now seem to be very solid for Trump. It's not gonna be blowout,
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but they're very solid wins under today's circumstances. And you know, I've always
18:27
said that if he doesn't win North Carolina, he went in the election anyway.
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So if North Carolina is competitive, nothing really is super competitive. It
18:37
doesn't really matter anyway. So let's go out west to the other two key
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swing states in Nevada and Arizona. Obviously geographically very similar. Demographically they're somewhat
18:47
similar. I have positive a theory that part part of why Trump is doing
18:52
so well in Nevada and Arizona is that there was a migration of moderate and
18:57
conservative voters out of California during the COVID panic. You also suggest that the
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Hispanic vote in those two states has shifted in Trump's direction. What do you
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make of those two factors when it comes to those two key states. Oh,
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listen, I think they're huge, you know, regarding the great sorting,
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as I referred to it, as of people leaving blue states. And
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by the way, I'm one of these people. I was born and raised
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in Chicago. I raised a family in the city of Chicago for twenty five
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years, and the lockdowns for me were the last straw. I couldn't take
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it anymore, and I had to get out of that incredibly leftist and oppressive
19:37
jurisdiction. And just you know, a quick side note, like for me,
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the last sort of moment or the eye opening moment that I couldn't ignore
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was my son was playing basketball with a mask on. And just knowing your
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history and what you have done, and you've been magnificent, by the way,
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and I give you so much credit for what you have done to reveal,
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you know, the treachery and the lack of scientific rigor, the just
20:03
the abuse of children in our society. So thank you for everything you've done.
20:07
But to me, I was watching my son and I said, you
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know what, this is abusive, Like, we can't be here anymore.
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And thankfully I had the option to get out. Now, a lot of
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people don't, right, they don't necessarily have that option. So I say
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that as a preface to I'm one of these people. Okay, I'm one
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of these refugees. I now live in Tennessee and understandably a lot of people
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here in Tennessee are worried, are you know, are these refugees going to
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change us? You know, are these Northerners going to come down here and
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turn us blue? And perhaps that's a realistic worry as far as the pre
20:40
COVID migration, because it was just about jobs in economy, right, just
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okay, Nashville's hot, a lot of jobs, a lot of California's moving
20:47
there, a lot of Chicagoans, and that probably was a very valid concern.
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But the post the during COVID and post COVID lockdown panic people like,
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not only are we not changing things, We're going to make you way redder
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right. And that's what I kind to tell people. And I think people
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here, at least in Tennessee are waking up that they're like, holy cow,
21:06
this this crowd. Bill Cortes and his buddies like these guys are are
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you know, are way more right wing than we are right And I think
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to your point, very similar uh phenomenon going on in Nevada to a lesser
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cent in Arizona. But you know, but really in Nevada where you know,
21:23
not as big as states as Arizona, and they can move the needle.
21:26
So I think when you combine that aspect of great sorting political cultural refugees
21:36
plus Hispanics moving big time to the right, that those two factors put both
21:44
of those states, I believe, solidly into Trump's camp. And now listen,
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let me tell you this though, too, John, Let me play
21:48
Devil's advocate, because I don't want to. I'm not Pollyanna. As you
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know, I don't think you know everything's fine. Here's my worry and here's
21:56
I think the biggest risk. And I saw this in my it's not just
21:59
my into but what I see him polling. Trump is a convicted felon,
22:04
even however ridiculous we may think the case is, and of course I think
22:08
it's a complete sham that can absolutely change the calculus. So I think he
22:15
still wins all of these states. But I think that we're talking about Georgia,
22:18
Arizona, Nevada. But they can get a lot closer if he's suddenly
22:22
a quote convicted felon. I agree with you, but I want to hold
22:26
off on the trial for just a second because I want to go along somewhat
22:30
of a logical line here with regard to your polling and where the president's race
22:34
currently stands now, And I've never I'm glad you said that about the migration,
22:41
because I've never understood this logic the people that left blue states during or
22:45
after COVID would somehow be liberals. Were If you were liberal, you weren't
22:51
going to be leaving. You were, You weren't offended, you were actually
22:53
happy with what's happening. The people that would be leaving, and a lot
22:59
of them from Californi and you went to Nevada and the Arizona and the Texas
23:02
and to Florida, and all those states are trending redder, not bluer.
23:07
You know, I do think that there's correlation and causation there, but there's
23:11
a lot of other factors. Now you are currently in the field in Nevada.
23:17
I think you're gonna have results in Nevada fairly soon. Is there anything
23:19
you can tell us about what you think is going to be the current situation
23:22
there? Now? I wish I had data to tell you there, you
23:26
know, I don't yet. But by the way, to that point too,
23:30
of making the destination states and jurisdictions redder, we're also making the places
23:36
we left bluer and let me give you a data point on that, which
23:38
is Chicago again, a place where I was born and raised, where I
23:41
raised a family for twenty five years in the city. The fact that Chicago
23:45
went from Lori Lightfoot, who was you know, by any measure. You
23:49
know, I believe the worst mayor not just in the history of Chicago,
23:55
but perhaps you know, in the history of America quite frankly, and went
24:00
to a worse right to Brandon Johnson, a worse, more radical, more
24:06
openly Marxist mayor, I believe, and he narrowly won. But I think
24:10
one of the reasons that he won is that people like me had all left
24:14
right in other words, as we leave, you know, and again,
24:17
so this is this is accelerating that bifurcation. You're making the destination places we
24:22
go much much redder, and we're making the places we leave, you know,
24:26
much bluer. But anyway, unfortunately, no, I don't have data
24:30
yet on Nevada. But look, I anticipate that we will have a large
24:34
here's my guess, and midtally it's just a guest, but we'll have a
24:37
large single digit lead. I don't think it'll get to double digits, but
24:41
we show. My polling shows in Arizona trump plus five. As I mentioned,
24:45
in Georgia, we show plus ten. We're also pulling North Carolina.
24:49
So I've got a lot of polls out there right now in the field.
24:52
The indications, I can tell you this indications in Georgia, excuse me,
24:56
in North Carolina, is that we're going to be in the low teens.
25:00
So I think in those states, which are admittedly more obviously conservative in the
25:03
American South, you know, we're getting into a level where they're almost not
25:07
swing states to some degree. I anticipate that we're going to get probably a
25:12
plus seven plus eight kind of number in Nevada, but I can't say that
25:17
I defenditive all right now. So as we're going through state by state,
25:19
I think you probably know where I'm going with this. You're outlining pretty much
25:25
what I have been saying for many months now, which is that Trump could
25:29
easily win all of what I refer to as the southern swing states Nevada,
25:33
Arizona, Georgia, and North Carolina, but that he could lose all of
25:37
the northern swing states Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania because they're on a razor's
25:44
edge based upon all the polling right now, though Trump does, to be
25:48
clear, seemingly have about a one or two point lead in most polls in
25:52
those three states. If that happens, we're now staring down the barrel of
25:57
a potential sixty nine electoral College tie, which gets us to Omaha, Nebraska.
26:06
Now, you and I have discussed this. I urged you quite emphatically
26:11
to see if we could get a poll in Nebraska District number two, Omaha,
26:15
which could theoretically determine the entire presidential election. I know you're in the
26:19
field there. I know you don't have results yet, but take us through
26:23
the thinking in polling. Nebraska's the second congressional district, and what you feel
26:30
might be happening there. Yeah, and John, by the way, I'm
26:33
with you. You know, look, if I had to bet money today,
26:37
you know, sort of gun to my head. Okay, you know
26:38
what's going to happen if the election were today? I think Trump wins all
26:42
of those what I called, you know, the sun Belt sweep right.
26:45
You know, we do win Nevada, Arizona, Georgia, and North Carolina
26:49
today, I don't think we win those every Midwest states. So three you're
26:52
talking about, and that means you're exactly correct that that gets us to sixty
26:56
eight for Trump, which means that the Omaha seat, the Nebraska two,
27:03
gets into two sixty nine, which is a tie. And that is hardly
27:07
an implausible scenario at this point. As a matter of fact, today I
27:11
think it's a likely scenario. Now, can we win that seat? I
27:15
have not gotten the pulling back yet, so I don't know what the pulling
27:18
says. Of course, it does have a Republican congressman. Now granted he's
27:21
a total rhino squish who I don't like at all, Congressman Bacon, but
27:26
that tells me, you know, it is a winnable seat. It was
27:29
Biden plus six last time. That's not great. But the seat has also
27:33
been redrawn because of redissecting. And my understanding, and I don't claim to
27:38
be an expert in Nebraska politics, but my understanding from people who are on
27:42
the ground there in Nebraska is that the district is slightly more trumpy, is
27:47
slightly more sort of American First, and a bit more blue collar, which
27:52
the more blue collar in general, the better we do in the America First
27:55
movement, and certainly in Trump pulling, So I'm anxious to get the pulling
27:59
back. I would hate for it to come down to that. Obviously.
28:03
You know, my goal, as somebody who's now working at least unofficially for
28:06
Trump, my goal is to win at least one of those three Upper Midwest
28:08
states. But if we don't pick off one of them, You're exactly right,
28:12
it could come down to this. And again I don't think, you
28:15
know, it's not a crazy scenario that it would be two sixty nine,
28:18
two sixty nine. And people need to realize, and I've been pretty public
28:23
about this. I think that the GOP is going to lose the House.
28:26
I do. I just I don't see the roadmap. I hope I'm wrong,
28:30
but I don't see the roadmap for the Republicans to win the House.
28:33
But hear the Constitution, that vote, when it goes to the House is
28:37
not a majority vote, is a state delegation vote. And it appears at
28:41
least we don't know because it will be the new Congress, but it appears
28:45
at least to the new Congress will have more we'll have twenty six, you
28:48
know, at least Republican delegations to then elect Donald Trump. The president.
28:52
But I'll also say this. I mean, look, if you think this
28:56
country right now is disputatious, if you think we're polarized, wait until we
29:02
get into a fricking tie for the presidential election. I don't even I mean,
29:07
I'm kind of laughing because it's it's almost crazy, but it's not funny.
29:11
The scenarios like it could be truly terrible for this country. So I
29:15
really really hope that we can and I think we can win one of those
29:18
northern states. And our polling just you know, like so the audience also
29:23
knows like I'm not again, not some sick of fin I'm not just kissing
29:26
Trump. Our polling has this effectively tied in all three And this is the
29:30
only place where I diverge. My polling diverges from New York Times. New
29:34
York Times had in Michigan, I believe was Trump plus eight. I think
29:40
that's crazy. I think they got a bad sample there. We show him
29:42
plus one. In any case, I think we're in the ballgame in all
29:47
those states, but by no means are we leading. You know, Steve,
29:51
I'm actually right there with you. I think, gun to my head,
29:53
Trump loses all three of those states. I mean, you have that
29:56
Wisconsin Supreme Court race lack year where the Democrat won, which I think was
30:03
a litmus test. You have Governor Whitmer incredibly popular, bizarrely so in Michigan.
30:08
You got a Shapiro in Pennsylvania ridiculously popular, again beyond my comprehension.
30:15
You have special elections in the suburbs of Philadelphia going very democratic. I'm just
30:22
not buying this polling in those three states where Trump ends up pulling out a
30:30
tiebreaker type victory. I could be wrong about that, but I'm just I'm
30:33
going by my gut what I'm seeing on the ground. I think that there
30:37
could be a pro Trump bias in some of the polling, not dramatically.
30:41
It only takes one or two points, and they're talking about a Biden victory.
30:45
And so I want to go back to Nebraska for just a second.
30:48
Do you agree with me? Not just because this would be such a potentially
30:53
catastrophic event. I refer to it as the Civil war scenario if we do
31:00
down the barrel at two sixty nine and two sixty nine, but also because
31:03
it is fairly likely. I mean, it's not over fifty percent chance.
31:07
This is going to happen. But of all the potential scenarios right now today,
31:11
I think this is the most likely scenario that we're looking at Omaha Nebraska
31:15
design in this election. Are you as surprised as I am that this is
31:19
not getting nearly enough attention and that you're one of the few people even polling
31:25
the second International district in Nebraska, John, I'm shocked. I'm honestly shocked.
31:30
And I don't know if it's just because you know, the corporate media
31:33
is so lazy, or you know, a lot of politicos are so lost
31:37
in their New York Washington world that they can't sort of see this. I
31:41
don't get it quite like. I don't have a good explanation. But as
31:45
far as I know, you and I are the only two people that have
31:49
any kind of platforms who are talking about this. And I'm the first person
31:55
to do a real poll. There's been a little bit of polling, but
31:57
I'm doing a real, rigorous, scientifically valid pole Again, I wish I
32:01
had the numbers for you. I don't yet. You know, we'll see
32:04
what happens there, but I'm I don't have an explanation of why people aren't
32:09
paying more attention to this. Maybe on the here's my only, my only,
32:14
you know, sort of explainer or disclaimer would be on the on the
32:17
Trump side, maybe there's just a lot of confidence that we're going to win
32:21
one of those three states, right And by the way, it's not you
32:24
know, it's not crazy confidence to believe that we could win Michigan. Particularly.
32:30
I think of those three of Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, I think
32:32
Michigan is the most winnable. And I say that not necessarily because Trump is
32:37
the strongest there, but because Biden is the weakest there. You've talked a
32:40
lot of your podcasts about his problems with the Muslim community, which is significant.
32:44
There's three hundred thousand Muslims in the state of Michigan. It's also a
32:47
huge university state between m s U and UM and uh you know, between
32:53
East Lancey and Arbor. Is there going to be are there going to be
32:57
enough people who are super angry at Joe Biden about the situation in Gosa,
33:02
Not that they're going to vote for Trump, but they that they don't vote
33:05
for for Joe Biden. You know, I think it's it's that's an incredibly
33:12
reasonable thesis to have right now. So to me, Michigan is the most
33:15
winnable of those. And and perhaps the Trump folks are just saying, you
33:20
know what, We're gonna win Michigan, so Omaha is actually not going to
33:22
ultimately matter. But I'll tell you this, one of the reasons I'm pulling
33:24
this is, John, what I'm doing is I don't learners speak to President
33:28
Trump on the regular basis as I used to. He's, you know,
33:30
as you might imagine, not happy with me for my advocacy for Ron DeSantis
33:36
in the primary. But what I'm trying to do in a public way now
33:39
in a private way. Now I used to speak to him privately all the
33:43
time, but now in a public way, what I'm trying to do with
33:45
my polling and with my you know, focus on Omaha is say, hey,
33:51
President Trump, by the way, pay attention to this and get there,
33:53
have a rally. Let's get to Nebraska too, like we need to
33:57
focus there because it may come down to that. And if it does,
34:01
like holy Cole, let's invest their time and money, you know, between
34:06
now and election day. And again I put it aside my partisanship, John,
34:10
as an American, I think it'd be terrible if it comes down to
34:15
that, Okay, But to your point, it's entirely within the realm of
34:20
possibility. And if I you know again, if I had to bet money
34:22
today, I think it will come down to Omaha. When do you expect
34:27
the Omaha Nebraska results to be public? You know? I hope this week,
34:32
late in the week, if not by next week. Polling. One
34:36
thing I found out, and look, I'm learning a lot about polling.
34:37
You probably know a lot more about this, you know, than I did
34:39
before I got into it, is it's way easier to pull a state than
34:44
it is a congressional district, right, and so it's expensive. It takes
34:47
a lot of time combination of online and UH and phone. But here's the
34:52
other thing is it's expensive and tedious, but we're doing our polling in a
34:58
rigorous way like and I again, I believe my polling will stand up against
35:01
anybody. I'm very glad to see you York Times, CBS, and I
35:07
just wrote an article about this. People could see in my social media.
35:09
They basically have caught up to where I am already in terms of my polling.
35:13
So I'm not doing polling for the purposes of propaganda. Now, we
35:17
might use parts of the polling, uh in a way that you know,
35:21
we're we're campaigning, you know, absolutely, but we're doing the polling in
35:24
a legitimate way. And then we're going to select slices of the polling that
35:29
we think are the most helpful to us in terms of our you know,
35:31
our messaging. Well, I'm very eager to hear the results in the basket.
35:36
I'm glad that you decided to go there, because I think this isn't
35:39
a ridiculously under a reported story. Does Trump have any kind of relationship with
35:45
Warren Buffett, who lives in Omaha, Because I can tell you I can
35:50
totally see a scenario where Warren Buffett decides the selection. Yeah, I mean
35:54
he's lived there forever so liberal I can't imagine, you know, And and
35:59
particularly for war about it. I have no regard at all for Warren Buffet.
36:02
Quite the opposite. As a matter of fact, I believe he's the
36:06
biggest single donor to Planned parenthood. Ever, I am totally pro life.
36:09
So I well, I can you know what, I can also love you
36:13
know what, I can also see. I can also see if the polling
36:15
stays as it is. I can see Taylor Swift flying in for a freak
36:19
concert in Omaha, Nebraska, and it's over, and it's over. I
36:23
mean, I'm telling you this. I mean, you know, lots of
36:27
things can happen between between between now and October November, but right now we
36:31
are on the same page that Nebraska's the second congressional district is the epicenter of
36:37
this campaign. I'm very curious as to what your polling is going to find.
36:40
One other thing on polling that I have been totally confused about on the
36:44
presidential side, and I'm curious what your take on this is. I have
36:49
never seen a situation where there is more data in different directions when it comes
36:55
to the impact of RFK Junior and the other independent candidate dates on whether or
37:00
not it hurts Trump or helps Trump. And I've seen polls all over the
37:07
map. Now, there has been a tendency for the last couple of months
37:12
for RFK Junior to actually help Trump by a point where two sometimes three.
37:17
That trend seemed to have reversed itself, and then this morning there was a
37:22
Bloomberg pull out showing that RFK Junior actually does help Trump and all of these
37:27
swing states by a couple of points. Where are you on this issue of
37:31
RFK Junior and the other candidates as to whether or not they help or hurt
37:37
Trump or Biden. John my polling and also just my read, my gut,
37:42
my intuition on this is he is pulling equally from both. But my
37:45
polling has been really clear on this, and so just you know, there
37:49
has been you know, we've been doing this now since November, and again
37:52
we keep we're rotating through all of these swing states, and he has taken
37:59
almost exactly evenly from both, slightly more from Joe Biden, but basically evenly
38:06
from both. And to me, that actually makes intuitive sense as well.
38:08
It's not just that the pulling data tells me that there's a certain segment of
38:14
the right who is still understandably very frustrated with Trump about the COVID panic of
38:21
twenty twenty, and some of that crowd, the people who feel most fiercely
38:24
about those issues, they are gravitating to RFK. On the left, we
38:30
have a lot of people who are very anti war, who believe that that
38:36
Biden is not sort of sufficiently left wing on a number of different issues,
38:40
and they are gravitating to RFK, so he is pulling equally from both right
38:46
now. And I have been a big proponent and I although you know,
38:50
as I mentioned, I don't speak to President Trump anymore, but I do
38:52
speak to a lot of his senior team on a very regular basis, and
38:55
I have message to them very clearly, you know, offline that we need
39:00
to take our FK seriously. Okay, this is not only a problem for
39:04
Biden. He is a problem for Biden. He's not only bien problem.
39:07
He's our problem too, And we need to start convincing our voters or our
39:12
potential voters on the right that you know, while while he says some things
39:15
that are great and I love him on medical privacy, I love him when
39:20
he talks about Big Farmer, when he talks about Fauci, that there are
39:22
a lot of things about RFK that are incredibly leftist, radical and that our
39:28
voters need to know about that. You know, for example, totally anti
39:31
Second Amendment, has never been a gun guy, you know, quite the
39:36
opposite. H Totally anti energy, he's nuts, He's insanely radical on energy
39:43
issues. He's anti fracking. I mean, can you imagine being anti fracking
39:46
in today's world. I mean, holy, Kyle, like to me talk
39:50
about an unsellable position even to an independent, forget about to a right leaning
39:54
person. So and I've noticed, and I'm not saying that I caused this,
39:59
but I've noticed, you know, certainly, that the Trump campaign has
40:01
amped up its and sort of Trump surrogates have amped up attacks on RFK on
40:07
these issues. And I think that's significant and needs to continue. Look in
40:12
the end, here's my take on RK. He's significant, right, He's
40:15
pulling in the teens, and every one of my swing states he's pulling the
40:19
teens. That's a big deal, right, it is, and it can
40:22
be conclusive in these states that are going to be super super closed. So
40:27
far, though he's not breaking one way or the other, he is he
40:30
is equally attracting sort of disaffected right wing people for their own reasons and disaffected
40:37
left wing people for their own reasons. And those reasons are not similar at
40:40
all, but they're sort of ideologically miles apart, you know. I mean,
40:45
in other words, he's attracting right wing people who are still angry about
40:51
the COVID panic, and he's attracting left wing people who are generally mostly angry
40:57
about the war in Gaza. You know, those issues aren't related. Those
41:00
crowds are not you know, inner spurts. There's no intermingly, so we'll
41:02
see where it goes from here. I will also say this though, one
41:06
word about RFK. I think that his decision on a running mate. You
41:10
know, I understand that she's a billionaire, you know, by divorce,
41:14
and she's got a lot of money, but it was absurd, I mean,
41:16
and I think that to me ruined his chance to be taken seriously in
41:22
the election. You know, the idea that he can actually make a run,
41:25
right, and his whole thesis is I can get to thirty three percent
41:28
and that's all I need. His selection of Nicoll Shanahan, somebody who,
41:32
by the way, I'm in this game full time. I had never heard
41:36
of her until he picked her. Okay, So that alone tells me,
41:39
okay, this isn't serious. Again, you can be decisive. I'm not
41:43
saying it's not serious platorally, but his candidacy is not actually serious in terms
41:46
of him Ray all right, let's talk about the Senate because you know,
41:51
as you know, I'm not going to vote for either Biden or Trump.
41:53
Not that I might vote banners in California, but I care a lot about
41:57
the Senate, and I'm very, very very concerned that Republicans are once again
42:01
going to blow a cycle that is set up for them, and that I
42:05
think there's a pretty darn good chance that Republicans end up with a fifty to
42:09
fifty Senate, maybe fifty one forty nine Republican if they get lucky in Montana
42:15
or somewhere else. And you've done a lot of work on the Senate.
42:20
In fact, that may be more of a focus on where you are than
42:22
even the presidential race. I have put forward a theory on this podcast which
42:29
I think I even said you agreed with, but I want to make sure
42:31
that I let you talk about it instead of me speaking for you that instead
42:37
of having co tails, Donald Trump actually has what I call reverse co tales,
42:42
because he is running in these swing states exceedingly ahead of all the Republican
42:47
senatorial candidates. And one of the things that the swing states have in common
42:52
almost all of them, which I think is being very underreported by the media,
42:58
because I think this has a massive impact on the presidential race and the
43:01
Senate race is that there are competitive Senate races in almost every single swing state,
43:07
and right now the Democrat is winning in every single one of those Senate
43:12
races. And so there's this question, how is it that Trump is running
43:15
so far ahead of the Republican senatorial candidate in these key states. And my
43:22
theory is that effectively, it costs a lot of political capital for moderate voters
43:29
to vote for Trump. They don't like Biden, they don't like an eighty
43:32
one year old running for four more years. They may have somewhat nostalgic views
43:37
of the Trump presidency. They're willing to bite the bullet on Trump, but
43:42
then when it comes to the Senate race, they have no Republican capital left
43:45
that they feel like they have to vote for the Democrat. Otherwise they're going
43:50
to feel like they're a maga Republican and everything that is involved in that that
43:54
they're not a serious person. They want to check on Trump and k you
43:59
know, so he doesn't go crazy, whatever it is. They just want
44:01
to feel like they're a rational person. So they're going to vote against Biden
44:05
on the presidential level, but they're going to vote for the Democrat incumbent on
44:09
the senatorial level, and that this is the one of the explanations for the
44:14
massive gap between how Trump is doing and how Republican Senate candidates are doing.
44:20
What is your take on my theory, John Listen, I think you're mostly
44:23
correct, I really do. And I'm glad you said though, too,
44:25
that they want to feel that's important. And this is one thing that I've
44:29
tried to, you know, preach since I got into electoral politics with Trump
44:34
in twenty sixteen, and you know, when I worked for Trump and twenty
44:36
twenty, particularly where I ran a you know, fairly big staff is you
44:39
know, remember, voting is largely about emotion. It's about feelings. It's
44:44
not about necessarily the logical or intellectual choice. Right, how do you feel?
44:50
Right? You know? Who moves you? And in that regard,
44:53
I think to your point, there are a substantial number of people who will
45:00
vote for Trump not because they love him, but because they hate what Biden
45:05
is doing to their life. But they feel guilty about that. There is
45:08
still a lingering guilt in voting for Trump. And even though he's now you
45:14
know, dominated American politics for almost a decade, right, there is still
45:19
a stigma to voting for Trump. And I think some of us who are
45:22
who are deeply in favor of Trump have a hard time seeing that, right,
45:25
because of course there's no stigma to us or those stigma to me.
45:29
But believe me, I see it in the polling. I see it in
45:31
an anecdotal way. It is hard for a lot of people in America.
45:37
If you don't live in Alabama, or you don't live in eastern Tennessee,
45:40
or you don't live in you know, rural Arizona, it's hard for a
45:43
lot of people to say, oh, yeah, I voted for Trump and
45:45
I'm really happy about it. Okay, that's just it's a hard social construct.
45:50
And because of that, I think a lot of people out there,
45:52
and I think the polling is showing us that there's a lot of people out
45:55
there who and they may not be conscious, you know, I think this
46:00
is important, John. It's not that they're saying to themselves, you know
46:02
what, I'm gonna self balance. I'm going to balance my ticket, you
46:05
know, right, and I'm gonna do X y Z. It can be
46:07
subconscious, and I think it's very emotional in a lot of ways, saying
46:12
Okay, you know what, I'm going to bite the bullet, don't love
46:14
Trump going to vote for him because Biden's making my life really hard. I
46:17
can't afford my fricking groceries. Don't want, you know, my kids being
46:22
taught pronouns in schools, right, I mean, all the lunacy of the
46:25
left right, it is just insane. A lot of sensible people, aren't
46:29
necessarily right wing, are saying, I'm not okay with this, right,
46:31
my life's getting worse Underbiden. I'm going to vote for Trump, but I'm
46:37
not voting for the Trump acolyte, you know what I mean. I'm not
46:39
going to vote for the Trump echo down ballance. So I think you're absolutely
46:45
onto something now. And our polling has absolutely shown that so far, every
46:50
Senate candidate is significantly underperforming Trump. Here's my message to them, in case
46:54
any of them are listening, is don't try to be Trump, is right,
47:00
I mean, run your own race. Don't don't run against Trump,
47:04
but run your own race. You know, prove why you should be elected
47:07
and run against Biden. Don't run as Trump light, run against Biden.
47:13
People despise Joe Biden, and that is empirically true. That's not my opinion,
47:16
Okay, empirically, he is far far more despised than any president was
47:22
at this point in their presidency, any in history. Okay, again that's
47:27
empirically true, not my opinion, So run against him, but do not
47:30
try to be a Trump echo. And there's a few things about Trump that
47:35
are fascinating, or there's so many things, of course, John that are
47:37
fascinate about it. But one of them is that nobody else can be Trump
47:39
right like you just can't. And I always strive to do this. When
47:44
I was officially working for Trump and I was his spokesman, one of my
47:47
jobs, particularly in the twenty twenty campaign, was sort of to coach other
47:51
surrogates and other media people, and a lot of them would sort of try
47:54
to be Trump's right. They try to be sort of meaning Trumps. I
47:57
would say, no, don't do that. I mean, number one,
48:00
Sue Gennaris, I mean, he's one of the kinds like you can't,
48:01
you can't mimic him. But I'm like number two, don't try. It's
48:05
it's crazy to try. Because here's the thing. As as persuasive as Trump
48:09
can be and to certain people, as compelling, this he is, you
48:14
know, he's also obviously incredibly abrasive to a lot of folks, incredibly garished
48:19
to a lot of people. I'm like, go the opposite way. So
48:22
I always tried very hard in my media appearances to be the opposite that.
48:27
Okay, I have the exact same philosophy of Trump. I'm totally America first,
48:30
Okay, on all these issues. I'm a populist nationalist, but I'm
48:34
going to be sort of the smiling face of this rather than the Trump face
48:37
of it, right, And I think I was very effective in that regard,
48:42
and I would encourage Senate candidates, you know, to follow that that
48:45
rule. But he listen, also to your point, the Senate is totally
48:49
in play, and it shouldn't be, but it is. Well, here's
48:52
my fear on that last point. And then this is the John Zigler e
48:55
wor pessimist. Here's where I think we're could be we could be heading.
49:01
So we go through this presidential election, and it's perceived that Trump is winning,
49:07
even though we just outline that this is basically a tie ball game.
49:13
Trump might be up, you know, by a very small margin, but
49:15
from an electoral college perspective, there is still a clear path for Joe Biden
49:21
to win, but the perception is Trump's going to win. And because that
49:25
perception is that Trump's going to win, there are people who decide to cast
49:30
their Senate ballots to check Trump, and then Biden wins a tiebreaker election and
49:38
Republicans don't have the Senate because they lose three or four very close Senate seats
49:45
from people thinking they were checking Trump when they should have been checking Biden.
49:50
You see what I'm saying. No, I get it. And by the
49:52
way, just let me be clear here too. As much as I told
49:55
you that I think that the tie is totally plausible, Okay, I believe
50:00
ultimately you know today, I believe we're gonna win Michigan. Okay, I
50:06
believe that Trump side is gonna win. That's fine, But that you don't
50:08
know that, Steve, I mean you don't know that. Well, we
50:10
don't know anything. But yeah, I'm just saying I just want that to
50:14
be out there in case you know, I don't want I don't want get
50:15
attacked by Trump people saying, oh, Cortestas, we have no chances.
50:19
Okay, I got I believe we're gonna win Michigan. I do would we
50:22
win it today, But addressed my fear, address my fear. No,
50:28
you make you make a very valid point. And also, look, I'm
50:32
super super worried about the House. I think that there's there's two factors there
50:37
now the House. One on the House is gone. I'm well, there
50:38
is there is no way that all the the redistrict thing is going Democrats a
50:44
way. They're gonna win a bunch of seats here in California that have been
50:47
on the razor's edge. The New York and Florida post COVID Republican pushes over.
50:57
You know, they're all the change and speak. There's too much chaos,
51:01
nothing getting done. I just don't see any way Republicans hold the House
51:06
now. How much they're going to lose it by I don't know, but
51:07
they're not going to They're not going to retain the House. So that makes
51:10
the Senate even more important. And I'm curious based upon your polling, which
51:16
has been this has been your focus the Senate, I think we both agree
51:22
that fifty seats in the Senate is a lock because Republicans are going to win
51:25
West Virginia. They're not going to lose anybody. I don't I don't even
51:29
you know Ted Cruz ain't going to lose Texas, so it's fifty Republican seats.
51:34
But that doesn't matter if Biden wins, because then the vice president,
51:37
you know, is the tiebreaker there, and that'll be Kamala Harris. So
51:42
you need at least fifty one. I would argue you need fifty two so
51:45
that you know, you know, can't have anyone go rogue like Murkowski or
51:50
whatever and screw up the whole thing. Where do you think is the most
51:57
likely place Republicans get that fifty first, fifty second seat in the Senate.
52:02
I believe Ohio and Pennsylvania, so right next door to each other, I
52:06
think those are the most likely. And that's where Pennsylvania. Yeah, I
52:10
do. I think McCormick has a shot there. I really do. And
52:14
I know, look, I know you're in a Pennsylvania native, and I
52:15
know, you know it seems crazy to say, you know that a state
52:20
that just elect to the senator who's comatos right, although increasing the right wing,
52:25
you know that even if Pennsylvania is the best shot. And I'm even
52:30
more depressed than I was to begin this, Well, look I think two
52:35
Okay, that and Ohio. Look I think Bernie Mariana also has a shot
52:39
there, and look, neither's easy. Both are heavy lifts. Let me
52:46
tell you this, One thing I don't believe, in which a lot of
52:49
Republicans do, is that Larry Hogan is gonna win Maryland. I just I
52:52
don't see that in the end. And I understand all the sort of pro
52:54
Larry you know, rationale, very popular governor, you know, all of
52:58
that, very moderatepublican, you know, barely a Republican. I think ultimately
53:02
he's running against a pretty dynamic black woman, you know, in a state
53:06
that is super blue and that is super black, And I just I don't
53:10
see him winning ultimately. What about Montana? Why aren't Why are you down
53:15
on Montana? Yeah? You know, I've only done one poll, but
53:19
the one pole we did there was not positive. So willing to look at
53:22
it again, of course. But here's the thing about John Tester. He's
53:24
a dang good politician, Okay, I mean I hate him as a you
53:28
know, ideologically, I think he's a fraud. When I say good politician,
53:31
mother, I'm not saying he's a good person, you know, just
53:34
be clear. Not a good leader. But I think he's a good politician.
53:37
He does a good job when he needs to pretending, you know,
53:40
I've got a crew cut and I'm a you know, chubby farmer and I'm
53:44
one of you. He does a good job of playing that stick in Montana.
53:49
So he's he's hard to beat. He is, uh And the Democrats,
53:52
while the map is sort of, you know, strategically against them,
53:57
they have the advantage of some pretty good, totally flawed, totally dishonest incumbents
54:02
who are good at fooling hometown voters that they're not crazy radicals, like John
54:08
Tester, like Shared Brown in Ohio, right, I mean Sharon Brown.
54:12
If people again, this gets back to my you know, talking about it's
54:15
about feelings, It's not just about the intellect, right, I would argue
54:19
political decisions are more about feelings than they are about intellect. Ohioans who are
54:23
feeling terribly about their lives, understandably because everything's harder from them right now in
54:29
their life, they objectively should vote for Donald Trump, and then they should
54:34
vote for Brindan Marino or at least vote against Sharon Brown. But will they
54:39
We'll see, you know, it's not going to be easy because they have
54:42
a good feeling about Shared Brown and Montana's have a good feeling right now about
54:47
John Tester. But look, I'm gonna be honest with John. I don't
54:52
know you're exactly correct. West Virginia is an automatic pickup. You know,
54:57
where from there do we pick up? Is in Nevada. I don't know
55:00
what. I'll tell you this. I'm going to be pulling the heck out
55:01
of it, and we're going to decide which race we think is the most
55:06
winnable. You know, we meaning my allies and I and we are going
55:08
to pile in and I will be there a lot personally campaigning, We will
55:13
be investing money, We'll be doing everything we can to make sure that that
55:16
you know that plus one or possibly plus two, if we can identify two
55:22
people that we think can actually win as a Nevada I don't know. The
55:25
only place that I think it is definitely not is Arizona. I don't think
55:29
Carry Lake has a shot. Georgia is the only swing state that has no
55:32
Senate election, and so all of the others the Senate races that are in
55:37
play, you know, gosh, we'll be watching them. And I wish
55:40
you gave you a better answer, John, I don't have no I'm more
55:44
convinced than ever it's going to be fifty to fifty. Well unless you get
55:46
it, Unless you get a great Pennsylvania Senate poll. Do not waste your
55:51
money in Pennsylvania on the Senate. Just don't do that. I think you
55:54
got a better shot in Ohio. I still think there's a chance in Montana.
55:59
I'd like to see your Nevada data because I think there's a chance in
56:01
Nevada because of the migration issues that I have already referenced. I want to
56:07
reference. I want to talk to you quickly about Arizona because you worked for
56:10
Carry Lake and and you know, I was a Carry Lake fan for a
56:15
while. And then when she claimed to win a seat that she didn't actually
56:20
win and she disparaged John McCain voters, uh, and that may have been
56:23
why she lost. I was out. She is like the poster child for
56:29
this this phenomenon that we just referenced, where Trump is way out pulling the
56:35
republic Senate candidate. And I'm curious, do you think there's any chance at
56:39
all that Trump pulls the rugout from underneath Carry Lake and she does not actually
56:45
get the nomination Because she is doing so poorly in those the polling on the
56:51
Senate side, is there a chance of that, you know, I don't
56:54
think so. And and listen, you know, to your point, I
56:58
absolutely supported Cary Lake for gumn her. I think that if she's going to
57:01
get competitive and win this race, she has to run her own race,
57:06
stop sounding like a Trump echo and and and get an entirely different path.
57:13
My polling, as well as we're seeing in public polling, does not show
57:15
any any strength in her race right now. And and by the way,
57:20
I'm most concerned with Trump. So I also hope you know, on the
57:23
other side, on the national side, that President Trump and his team,
57:28
and I've certainly conveyed this to them, that they realize that, and that
57:30
they do not attach themselves too much to to a lot of Senate candidates.
57:35
But you know, but particularly in Arizona, to carry Lake and and run
57:38
a pro Trump anti Biden candidacy there and campaign there rather than a campaign that
57:44
has anything to do with the center race and going This may already be clear,
57:47
and it wasn't, you know, I'll make sure it is now.
57:52
Part of my reverse coattail theory is that Trump actually benefits from a carry Lake
57:59
being a bad Senate candidate, because then if you're a moderate voter who realizes
58:06
that your your state's going to put out a Democratic senator, then I think
58:10
you're more likely say, well, i'll vote for the Democrat on the Senate
58:15
side, I'll vote for Trump because that way, I'm having a you know,
58:19
they're checking each other, and you know, I don't feel like I'm
58:22
a hardcore Republican or a hardcore Democrat. In a weird way, like if
58:27
if the Republicans had a really good senatorial candidate, I think it might actually
58:31
hurt Trump in Arizona. I think you're stretching it there, John, I
58:37
mean there. I think you're at you know, look, you and I
58:37
are in this game. You know, full time hardcore. You know,
58:42
is the is that moderate? It's some superb steve. It's subconscious. It's
58:47
subconscious, and I think it's real. And I think I think Trump benefits
58:52
from having crappy Republicans senate candidates don't like like like Carrie Lake. I think
58:59
it absolutely goes the other way, as I've already stated to you, right
59:01
in other words, I do think there's a certain factor of people who are
59:05
willing to vote for Trump, but then sort of self balanced subconsciously. I'm
59:09
not sure it goes in the other I think maybe there you're being too too
59:14
political, too analytical. I'm just not sure that merit coopa moderate, you
59:19
know, college educated, you know, suburban woman. Is she really making
59:22
that? You may be onto something? And I think find that we disagree
59:29
on something otherwise this gets boring o'bout you often, but I doubt you on
59:32
that. All right, it's fine. Let's talk about vice president and what
59:36
impact they may might have, because that's, you know, a little bit
59:38
of the elephant in the room here that that gets talked about. And I
59:43
personally believe that, you know, it seems like every few weeks there's a
59:45
new story out Trump team list of who's going to be on the you know,
59:51
who could be the VP. And before we get to the specifics of
59:54
names, do you agree with me, Steve that a lot of these stories
59:58
are just utter bull crap, they're just clickbait, that there is no substance
1:00:02
to them. Is that your view? Yes? And I think often planted
1:00:07
right by those people themselves or their teams. Yeah, one hundred percent.
1:00:12
Okay, And we saw that recently with Axios claiming that Nikki Haley had a
1:00:16
chance. You and I texted about it very quickly, and then like within
1:00:20
fifteen minutes, Trump put out a statement saying, Yeah, that's not going
1:00:22
to happen, which we both knew there was no chance Nicky Haley was going
1:00:25
to be the VP, even though I think we both agree that politically she
1:00:30
would bring some things to the table no one else. Would you have said
1:00:32
previously on this podcast that you thought it was going to be Ben Carson,
1:00:36
or that you were hearing it was Ben Carson. We don't hear his name
1:00:39
quite as much anymore, which I think is smart because I think it would
1:00:43
be a colossally stupid move to And even though I like Ben Carson as a
1:00:47
person to have as your VP, a seventy two year old gaff machine,
1:00:52
when you're running against an eighty one year old gaff machine in Joe Biden,
1:00:57
that makes no sense whatsoever. I send that you have shifted your view,
1:01:01
and I know want to put words you amount, but you get to tell
1:01:05
us what you really think. Since you're a JD Vance guy, are you
1:01:07
in the JD Vance camp when it comes to who should be Trump's VP.
1:01:14
Yeah, and I will not equivocate at all on that it should be JD.
1:01:16
Vance. I believe it will be JD. Vans. And by the
1:01:20
way, just to be clear, the Carson thing, I was just telling
1:01:22
you, reporting to you what I was hearing from Marilago. I was not
1:01:25
saying that I thought that was a smart choice. As a matter of fact,
1:01:28
I don't think it's a smart choice, even though I love doctor Carson,
1:01:31
and for the reasons you cite, you know, an older, sort
1:01:34
of lower energy guy like No, that doesn't make any sense to me.
1:01:38
He's as as incredible a person as he is. I just I was hearing
1:01:45
that at the time. I'm still hearing it a little bit, not as
1:01:47
much as then. What I'm hearing now is it's between Marco Rubio and JD.
1:01:53
Vance. And look, I don't know, I mean, who knows
1:01:57
what. Here's the thing about Trump too, And you know, I can
1:01:59
say this with some authority, as somebody you know at least was very close
1:02:02
to President Trump. You think you know exactly what his decision is going to
1:02:06
be, and then the second he goes on social media or on an interview,
1:02:10
it ends up being something entirely different, even though you know there had
1:02:14
been sort of days and weeks of planning into a you know what you thought
1:02:17
was a different outcome. So who knows? All right, just with that
1:02:21
major caveat, that major disclaimer of no one, no one can truly predict
1:02:25
where Donald Trump will land on these things. I don't understand. I don't
1:02:29
understand. I like JD. Vance, and I used to really like Mark
1:02:32
Rubio until he sold out the Trump But you obviously Vance is a Trump guy
1:02:39
too, but he never pretended to be anything other than that. So but
1:02:44
but I don't have a problem with Vance or Rubio. I don't understand the
1:02:49
logic behind either of those two possibilities. It almost feels like that's a two
1:02:53
thousand and two thousand and four equation, Like when Ohio and Florida were the
1:03:00
states that determined elections. We're not that world anymore. Ohio and Florida are
1:03:04
are in the Republican camp. So what do you do? What are you
1:03:07
gaining from that? And you're in Ohio and maybe Florida, you're jeopardizing a
1:03:14
Senate See what is the logic behind Van Sarubio? By the way, no
1:03:19
and John I'll disagree with you on that. And you've mentioned this on the
1:03:22
podcast a few times, like, no, we're not jeopardizing the sense.
1:03:24
See, you know they both have Republican governors, in the case of Florida,
1:03:29
the best Republican governor in America. I'm talking about, there's going to
1:03:30
be you lose an incumbent, so eventually there's an election, right, No,
1:03:37
in two years, correct, But my point is they're both You're going
1:03:39
to get a Republican you know, interim, both are going to like Republicans
1:03:44
in two years. So what wait a minute, Wait a minute, hold
1:03:47
on, Right now, there's a Senate race in Ohio where the Democrat is
1:03:52
winning. Okay, so how can you say that, because that John,
1:03:55
because that's an incumbent. But come on, you know the power of inguregency.
1:04:00
So you're giving up and then you know how diffic you're giving up an
1:04:03
incumbent, John, We would then we would then have a Republican incumbent.
1:04:11
Come on, John, I mean come on, no, no, no,
1:04:14
hold on. First of all, you trust Mike d want Mike I
1:04:20
fucking as you might imagine, you and I are so on the same page
1:04:27
on COVID, the wine was the worst Republican governor on COVID. Absolutely right,
1:04:32
So but my point is you would have a Republican incumbent, whoever that
1:04:39
is, who would then be running in two years. And in the case
1:04:42
of Florida, and I trust Ronda Santa Is with my life, okay,
1:04:46
you would have the best Republican governor in America appointing a senator for two years
1:04:51
who would then be an incumbent who would then win re election. So I
1:04:55
don't buy that, but listen to your bigger point, and I take this,
1:04:59
you know seriously, you're correct that neither of those two bring a sort
1:05:03
of natural electoral advantage. All right, Yes, I'll concede that, right,
1:05:09
like Ohio and Florida are not in play. But I guess two questions
1:05:15
I'll pose back to you is like number one, like should that be everything?
1:05:19
Or should we actually pick somebody who could be the president right and will
1:05:23
be the presumptive nominee for twenty twenty eighth we pick a young man of incredible
1:05:28
character and ideological alignment, you know, number one? And then you know,
1:05:33
I guess I would also you know, say number two is you know,
1:05:39
looking at the map, is there anybody out there who does add a
1:05:42
lot, who could be, you know, potentially added you know, like,
1:05:46
I mean, what are yours? I mean, you and I have
1:05:48
talked about this before, and you are You're the most objective maga person on
1:05:55
the planet. But I think I'm even more objective because I don't have the
1:05:59
maga thing in my my DNA. And I think that if he really wanted
1:06:02
to win this election, Nikki Haley would be the first choice. I mean,
1:06:06
she's proven that she has a core of voters. She helps with him
1:06:11
with demographics, specifically suburban moms where he's wet. I can't stand her,
1:06:15
but I agree, Okay, so if he wants to win, but I
1:06:18
realize his ego was never going to let that happen, so she's not going
1:06:24
to be the nominee. I'm again, if I'm asked who does he pick
1:06:29
to win the election? To win the election, I actually think if he
1:06:34
picked Tulci Gabbert, he would win. Now, she she causes all sorts
1:06:39
of problems for people like you and me who are politically conservative because she's not
1:06:43
conservative. She's a lifelong Democrat, but Trump was a lifelong Democrat. She
1:06:47
is clearly aligned with him philosophically. In a lot of ways. She would
1:06:53
crush Kamala Harris in a debate. Crusher. She's a female, and you
1:06:59
know, she's attractive, she's different, she's young. You know. To
1:07:02
me, he wins the election if he picks Tulsi Gabbert. Do you agree
1:07:06
or disagree with that? Gosh, I don't know. I'm not saying no,
1:07:11
but I'm just saying I don't know. But you make a compelling case,
1:07:14
like there are there are certainly great reasons to have her. I am
1:07:17
probably you and I probably would disagree on this. Like I am way more
1:07:20
anti war, anti foreign policy, establishment of the United States than most Republicans,
1:07:29
the most conservatives. So I love Tulsi on those issues. I think
1:07:31
she's super super strong. I'd much rather her though, having you know,
1:07:38
given that lane of hers, I'd much rather have her be Trump's secretary of
1:07:42
Defense. She'd be great for that job, right and to basically dismantle the
1:07:45
Washington war machine from the inside. As a as a veteran and a very
1:07:49
sort of unconventional veteran, because she's not your typical veteran, right, you
1:07:54
know, she's a woman. To your point of television, she's attract of
1:07:56
all of that. Like, but gosh, I don't know. You make
1:08:00
an interesting point, and John, one thing I've learned in television, I
1:08:02
am just broadcasting generally. Like I'm never afraid to say I don't know.
1:08:06
I don't know. I'm not sure what she I can see the upsides,
1:08:10
I can see the downsides. I don't know where that was. I don't
1:08:13
think. I don't think one Republican voter would would would go away from Trump.
1:08:17
One current Trump voter who's a conservative would decide, you know what,
1:08:21
I don't like Telsea Gabbard. Therefore, I'm I'm not gonna vote. I'm
1:08:25
going to vote for Joe Biden. That's not going to happen. That person
1:08:28
doesn't exist. John, to the point, let's be clear on that Trump
1:08:31
could select Pence again and no voter would leave him. Okay, right,
1:08:36
So so my point is they therefore, therefore the pick has to bring something
1:08:42
to the table. Okay, Fance is wonderful. He brings nothing to the
1:08:47
table except on, hold on, hold on, except he's an unbelievably exceptional
1:08:55
thirty nine year old man. Great will be one of the best presidents in
1:08:58
American history. I'm talking about weaning, I'm talking about winning. He brings
1:09:02
but does not also to the table when it comes to winning. Okay,
1:09:09
it's nice to have someone the actually do the job. I'm talking about winning.
1:09:14
If that's Trump keeps saying, we lose the Republic, if he loses,
1:09:17
we may lose in either direction. But if that, if you really
1:09:21
believe that, if you really believe the Republic's on the line, you got
1:09:26
to pick somebody who's gonna help you win. And I don't see how Rubio
1:09:30
or Vans do that. Here's my hope, and maybe I'm maybe I'm giving
1:09:33
too much credit to the American voter. My hope is the American voter once
1:09:36
they get to know jd. Vance, let's say he's the pick, which
1:09:40
I hope he is. I think he's going to be, but we'll see.
1:09:43
Well, you know, what do I know right in the end,
1:09:45
I mean, again with Trump, what does anybody know? You never can
1:09:47
tell. But my hope and belief is that once they see this incredibly powerful,
1:09:55
persuasive young man, right who rows from such a crazy, you know,
1:10:00
troubled background to become you know, a marine, a Yale law graduate,
1:10:02
a United States senator, you know, and at that point a vice
1:10:05
president's nominee, I think they're going to say, Okay, regardless of what
1:10:09
he brings electorally to the table coming from Ohio, which Trump's going to win,
1:10:14
doesn't matter, Like, Wow, what an understudy for Trump and what
1:10:17
a you know, if we're going to elect an eighty year old to have
1:10:21
a forty year old has somebody half his age right in his ear and as
1:10:27
his number two, it would be incredible. And I hope now convince people
1:10:30
maybe I'm being Pollyanna there, John, and way more cynical leasonally than I
1:10:35
am. At least Rubio potentially brings in the Hispanic narrative, which you've already
1:10:41
outlined is very important demographically. I can at least see that. And I
1:10:45
but I have nothing against Jadie Vance. I just don't understand taking an incumbent
1:10:48
senator that brings you nothing from the standpoint of actually winning. All right,
1:10:53
let's talk about the Trump trial, and let's talk about the trial itself first,
1:10:59
and then the potential political implications. I'm going to presume you agree,
1:11:03
but just for the sake of argument, my sense here is that this thing
1:11:08
has largely turned out from immediate perspective to be a dud. That it's obvious
1:11:14
that the American people are not that interested in this the media coverage itself,
1:11:18
you know that they you know, basically, they thought this was going to
1:11:20
be the trial of the century, and it is not panned out. From
1:11:25
a factual perspective. While there has been some damaging testimony and documents against Trump,
1:11:30
based upon what you and I both agree as a bogus case, it
1:11:33
should never been brought, especially in this timing. There have also been a
1:11:39
lot of moments that have been very bad for the prosecution. But the jury
1:11:43
pool is such that Trump getting acquitted seems to me like a long shot at
1:11:47
this point. It's to me, it's looking like a hung jury. I'm
1:11:51
curious, do you agree with most of that, if any of that,
1:11:55
What is your take on what I just said? No, absolutely, that's
1:11:58
my Here's the thing, you know, I think anybody claiming to have special
1:12:01
insight into what this jury is going to do, it's just ridiculous, Like,
1:12:04
how do we know, right, we don't know who they are.
1:12:06
They're anonymous people. We know based on the demography of New York City that
1:12:12
it's incredibly unlikely for him to get into acquittal. Can we get a hung
1:12:15
jury? Gosh, you know, watching the testimony, I think any reasonable
1:12:18
person would say it should be at least a hung jury. But you know
1:12:23
what, We'll see where it goes. But I'll say this get into I
1:12:27
think the more important point. And again, this to me is the biggest
1:12:30
vulnerability for Trump. And I've been very public about this, so I'm not
1:12:33
giving you just you know, special insight here, but regarding my polling,
1:12:38
the one aspect, the one area of Trump's vulnerability is are the are the
1:12:43
trials? Are these prosecutions? And even in really pro Trump places like Georgia,
1:12:48
when we ask about it, and I try to ask in the most
1:12:50
objective ways possible, you know, so for example, in Georgia, I
1:12:54
specifically said, are these prosecutions politically motivated? Or are are they a quest
1:13:01
for political punishment? Is? You know, basically how we asked it,
1:13:04
and I asked these different ways in different states, but trying to be very
1:13:08
fair, you know, in these uh in these polls, and what we've
1:13:14
gotten repeatedly is it breaks down along party lines, and independence tend to break
1:13:17
against Trump on these issues. In other words, I think there's still a
1:13:21
lot of regard. There's still a lot of respect for the American legal system
1:13:26
out there. I think it's ill placed because I think that particularly blue jurisdictions,
1:13:30
I think the the legal system is totally corrupted, and I think these
1:13:35
SOORLS backed prosecutors are you know, just absolutely derelict in their duties. But
1:13:41
the point is most Americans still basically believe in sort of the law and order,
1:13:46
respect for American jurisprudence. And having said all that, if he does
1:13:50
in fact get convicted, it's gonna matter. Now. Is it going to
1:13:54
you know, losing the election. No, I don't think so. But
1:13:56
I think it's going to make the road tougher and the climb a little steeper
1:14:00
for people like me who are trying to get him elect well as you know.
1:14:03
That to me is the part of this trial that the media and I
1:14:08
honestly don't know. Are they this dumb or are they just not this naive
1:14:12
or do they just purposely don't want to talk about it but talk about the
1:14:15
elephant in the room. I agree that this is going to have an impact
1:14:20
on the presidential election. How can you possibly have an objective jury in any
1:14:26
jurisdiction, but especially in New York City, when they have to know that
1:14:30
their vote is going to have a massive impact on the presidential election, not
1:14:36
just a man's life and freedom and whether or not, you know, he's
1:14:41
convicted of a crime. It's it's an inherently absurd concept that the media is
1:14:46
just ignored, like we're just pretending that this is this is all happening in
1:14:50
a vacuum, and that these these twelve jurors aren't going to have a ridiculously
1:14:55
outsized impact on what happens. I agree with you that a conviction is gonna
1:15:02
hurt Trump. Now there's the theory of a conviction, and then there's the
1:15:06
reality of one. I could see where that polling could be off, you
1:15:12
know what I'm saying with it, where people might tell a poster, well,
1:15:15
I can't vote for a convicted felon, and that would be insane.
1:15:18
But then when they actually see it happen, and let's say, you know,
1:15:23
Trump isn't in jail and exactly like everything's normal, and you know,
1:15:27
no one really believes that the jury got it right. I could see a
1:15:30
scenario where the impact isn't catastrophic on his polling. You are you in that
1:15:35
same quote. Listen, it's certainly not a positive. Okay, how big
1:15:41
a negative it? We'll see our polling at least shows it is a very
1:15:45
slight negative, but it's a negative. I mean, look, the fact
1:15:47
that they will be able to use the phrase convicted felon in an accurate way,
1:15:51
as crazy as we may think, that is. Okay, it will
1:15:55
be an accurate description that we will hear a fin item you know that is
1:16:00
that is definitely a challenge for Trump. But yeah, to your point,
1:16:04
this is why prosecutorial discretion is so important. Prosecutors are some of the most
1:16:10
powerful people in American society, right because, particularly because of how expansive criminal
1:16:15
law is. You know, certainly at the federal level, but even at
1:16:16
the state level. You know, most people could be charged with the crime.
1:16:21
And I think a lot of Americans don't want to acknowledge that, right,
1:16:25
but they could. Even if you think you're a very upstanding person,
1:16:28
there's probably something that a prosecutor, if they set their sights on you,
1:16:31
that they could prosecute you for believe it or not. And you know,
1:16:34
I hate to admit that that's his reality, and prosecutorial discretion is super important,
1:16:40
so like they have to be some of the most moral and upstanding people
1:16:42
in our society. And what we have seen and George Sorows did is very
1:16:45
you know, evilly. What he did is he made sure that in these
1:16:50
major blue jurisdictions, he installed unbelievably I mean they were elected, of course,
1:16:57
I mean I say installed, but that he installed unbelievably biased prosecutors who
1:17:03
will ignore the crimes that matter to regular people, the violent crimes that make
1:17:08
our lives hell and that are turning our cities into healthscapes, but weaponize the
1:17:14
full power of the state or the federal government it comes to us attorneys against
1:17:17
political enemies. And you know, that's what we're seeing right now in New
1:17:21
York. But again, most Americans don't share my view there, and I'm
1:17:26
very aware of that, right. They do not have that cynical, totally
1:17:30
you know, biased view of not biased, but you know, convinced view
1:17:36
that that the legal system is corrupted in the United States. And if you
1:17:40
don't have that view and you still give regard to the legal system, convicted
1:17:45
felon is going to matter. He's going to lose the election. No it's
1:17:46
not going to lose in the election, but it's a challenge for sure.
1:17:50
Let me ask you one other aspect about one other aspect of the Trump trial.
1:17:55
And I want to ask you this because I don't get it from I'm
1:18:00
a non maga perspective. But so you're the maga guy, You're the big
1:18:03
Trump guy. So I see so many Trump supporters online that are thrilled that
1:18:12
Michael Cohen has been exposed as a fraud, as a liar, as a
1:18:15
guy who stole from the Trump organization. You know that, you know,
1:18:20
David Pecker is a complete fraud and a liar, and of course Stormy Daniels
1:18:26
is a former porn star and is not to be believed. And I'm like,
1:18:29
I agree with all that these are terrible, terrible people and incredibly corrupt.
1:18:34
But when I look at it, I go, these are all people
1:18:38
that Donald Trump chose to associate with intimately and to trust implicitly. Trump allowed
1:18:46
himself to be potentially blackmailed by David Pecker, the head of a terrorist organization
1:18:53
called the National inquir He had an affair with a former porn star. He
1:18:59
had had his personal lawyer and fixer, a guy who was a perjurer,
1:19:03
a liar, a scumback, and who stole from him. That's not the
1:19:09
kind of judgment I want as my president of the United States. How does
1:19:15
that not make any impact on the Trump voters? Deeed? Look, John,
1:19:21
I think you bring up a very valid point, which is that Trump's
1:19:26
personnel decisions in the past, both before he was president and while he was
1:19:30
president during his first term. That to me is the is the most significant
1:19:34
weakness of the case for Trump. Okay, I don't want to get too
1:19:40
deeply into it, but I will tell you that I think that is the
1:19:43
biggest weakness. Now has he limbed his lesson? I believe he has,
1:19:45
and I think that there is a crew ready, that there's a team ready
1:19:50
to make that very different in a second term. But I hear what you're
1:19:55
saying, Boy, I'd love to know who this crew is because I know
1:20:00
the first time around there was a rally around the flag of fair not me.
1:20:04
Right. Well, See, that's the thing, if you're not even
1:20:06
in the crew, it really scares the hell out of me. The thing
1:20:10
who is in that crew, Because the first time around we got some incredible
1:20:14
people who rushed the rally around the flag and make sure this thing had guard
1:20:17
rails. None of those people are coming back for a second term, and
1:20:21
that should That scares the hell out of me. And it's it's a topic
1:20:25
that even the news media is not focusing enough on. Some people are,
1:20:30
but I just it's to me, it's a it's a deal breaker. This
1:20:32
guy is terrible at figure. I mean, he claims to hire only the
1:20:36
best people, and yet his personal lawyer, who is a guy who stole
1:20:43
from him right from out from under his nose and is a lying sack of
1:20:46
crap, and that's supposed to be the best part of his defense. It's
1:20:53
just insane. I mean, anyway, I don't want to put you in
1:20:56
a tough spot on that one. Let's let's go from politics to another topic,
1:21:00
which unfortunately has political overtones, and that is football, a subject that
1:21:05
you and I both feel very passionately about. You played football at our alma
1:21:10
mater, Georgetown University. Yes, we had a football team, still do.
1:21:15
And you have a son who's a star high school player in Tennessee and
1:21:18
is being recruited to play in college. So you have a lot of insight
1:21:21
as to the state of football and I want to separate this into two.
1:21:28
First, I want to deal with the issue of the sport in general and
1:21:30
maybe specific to the National Football League, because they basically dictate everything else that's
1:21:36
going to filter down when it comes to the sport. So the sport is
1:21:40
basically run by the National Football League. Everything else that happens on the college
1:21:44
and the high school level is basically filtered down from there. What is your
1:21:48
take on my assessment of where we are in football, which is that we
1:21:53
are fast approaching a sport that is no longer recognizable to the sport that,
1:21:58
for instance, you played in high school and college, and then it's only
1:22:01
going to get worse in the future and will, in my view, be
1:22:06
some sort of flag football in the next ten to fifteen years. Do you
1:22:11
agree or disagree orre you not sure about that? No, listen, I
1:22:14
mostly agree with you. I share your concern. I absolutely agree with you
1:22:17
on the trajectory of things now. It is very different here in the American
1:22:20
South. Okay, I will be with that major, major caveat in the
1:22:25
American South, at least at the high school level, I can tell you
1:22:29
youth football, high school football is still very much like it was in the
1:22:32
nineteen eighties when I was playing high school football. It is just that rough,
1:22:36
just that wonderful. Now, well that change because of what's going on
1:22:41
at the collegiate NFL level. You're probably correct that the trend is, you
1:22:45
know, away from hard, nos tough football, and that that has implications
1:22:50
way beyond football. Like again, I'm so on the same page of view
1:22:55
about this that you know, football is uniquely it's a uniquely American sport.
1:23:00
It's incredibly important to who America is as a country and as a country,
1:23:03
we have become less and less masculine, and me saying that even as controversial
1:23:09
it shouldn't be okay, but we are. And part of the masculinity of
1:23:13
America, and part of the masculinity that made America great was embodied in the
1:23:17
sport of football. It's how we formed young boys into young men. It's
1:23:23
a large part of how we made them tough and diligent. And also,
1:23:29
there's no team sport in the world in my view, I'm obviously super biased
1:23:31
because I love the sports so much, but there's no team sport like football
1:23:36
just because of the peculiarities of the game. And so there are so many
1:23:41
reasons to worry about this, not just because you know, you and I
1:23:45
happen to love football, but because we love America, and football in America
1:23:48
to me have been you know, peat, butter and jelly for a heck
1:23:50
of a long time. So I agree with you, but I will also
1:23:53
again with that exception of I will tell you this in Tennessee, an SEC
1:23:58
country right now doesn't mean it can't change. But right now, high school
1:24:02
football, youth football is strong, rigorous, played the way it was played
1:24:09
decades ago. But I hear you, and I believe me. I pay
1:24:14
John when you prognosticate, you're almost always correct. So I pay great heed
1:24:18
to what you're saying. And it does worry me a lot. And it
1:24:23
worries me as somebody. Football has dominated my life, all right. I
1:24:26
mean, you know, I played at my entire youth. I coached like
1:24:28
you. I coached high school football when I was a young man. Now
1:24:32
coach my son all through youth football now, basically a fan watching him once
1:24:35
he's done playing, which I hope isn't for five more years because he's gonna
1:24:39
play in college. You know, I'll go back to coaching football at some
1:24:42
level maybe you know middle school kids, who knows what, but huge,
1:24:45
it's impossible for me to exaggerate how important football has been to my life.
1:24:49
And that's probably true of a heck of a lot of American men. And
1:24:54
if we lose that, boy, we're losing a lot in this country,
1:24:57
and it's it's worrisome. Well, I love what you just said there,
1:25:00
and I agree that it's different in the South, at least most of the
1:25:04
South, and that's why the SEC dominates college football. And I think it's
1:25:11
also an indication is I don't want to get deep in the weeds here,
1:25:14
but I think it's an indication that we're going to separate as a country because
1:25:17
I think we're going to have football for real that will stay somewhat as it
1:25:24
always been in the South, but elsewhere it's going to basically disappear and it's
1:25:29
going to become a regional sport. That's my view. I also think the
1:25:33
high school and college are going to have a tough time with what happens at
1:25:36
the National Football League, because how do you justify even in the South,
1:25:41
Steve, how do you justify having real tackle football at the high school level,
1:25:45
These young, vulnerable boys when they're not willing to do it at the
1:25:49
professional level. See, I think that's what's going to kill high school football
1:25:54
in the South. It's not going to come from the bottom up. It's
1:25:56
going to come from the top down, where the National Football League is going
1:26:00
to eventually say, you know what, you know, we just can't do
1:26:02
this anymore. It's just too dangerous and we're going to change with the times.
1:26:08
And let me tell you, there's so many factors working in this direction.
1:26:12
And this may take us off on a side topic momentarily, but I'm
1:26:15
fine with that. You know a friend of mine who's a subscriber to the
1:26:18
show, who's a big business guy, Dave pa Truco, who sent me
1:26:21
an article about how private equity is now looking to dominate NFL ownership and it
1:26:30
is no longer going to be families that will own NFL teams, and that's
1:26:35
always been the trend. But if it goes total private equity, football is
1:26:41
done. Because, as you know better than NYE, private equity is unbelievably
1:26:46
vulnerable to political correctness and wokeism and everything else. And so when the National
1:26:54
Football League becomes run not by families but by private equity, it's over.
1:27:01
They cannot withstand any sort of controversy. And let me take that out of
1:27:05
the theoretical into the practical. The Harrison Butker thing, you made a you
1:27:11
know, you had a tweet that went viral about the reaction to the Hunt
1:27:15
family, the daughter of the Hunt family effectively supporting Harrison Butker, the Kansas
1:27:19
City Chiefs kicker. If the Hunt family doesn't own the chiefs, that doesn't
1:27:27
happen. Correct, Yeah, And and Butker is toast at this point.
1:27:31
You see where I'm going with this. He would have been fired that day
1:27:34
if some you know Blackstone or whatever, you know, blackwater, black rock
1:27:39
on the Kansaity chiefs. No, you're exactly correct. Look, safetyism,
1:27:44
I think you know the bigger point here that you're getting at is, you
1:27:45
know, safetyism is just an absolute menace to American society. And I think
1:27:50
you know, if this experiment of America dies someday, you know, the
1:27:55
post mortem, the obituary will be it was because of because of safetyism.
1:28:00
Because you know, we decided that you know, safety overall, right out
1:28:04
of caution, out of an abundance of caution, and football is representative of
1:28:10
that. You know, certainly. And yeah, and by the way,
1:28:13
to that point too, of this young woman, of this Gracie Hunt.
1:28:15
I mean, holy cow, I could not have scripted a better response to
1:28:21
the online haters of Harrison Bucker. Then you have this incredibly smart, super
1:28:29
pretty young woman who happens to be playing pickleball, right, who gives,
1:28:32
you know, in twenty seconds, sort of the perfect response. I just
1:28:35
you know what, I'm so glad that my stay at home mom was able
1:28:39
to raise me. I know everybody can't make that choice, but gosh,
1:28:41
isn't it a wonderful choice if you can. I mean, it was just
1:28:44
fantastic. And I respect you know, Harrison's Christianity was she was fantastic And
1:28:47
you're exactly correct that would not happen in a black Rock owned Kansas City Chiefs.
1:28:54
And look, you may be right. And about the top down punishment
1:28:59
of foot and what that means beyond football. And again, I hope that
1:29:03
folks out there who are listening to this, I hope they realize even if
1:29:06
you hate football, if you're not a sports fan, doesn't matter. Like
1:29:10
believe me, this matters to American society. It's been a key ingredient of
1:29:15
what has made America great. America used to be a really masculine society,
1:29:20
and I don't again, I know that's super controversial to say, and maybe
1:29:24
somebody will even you know, chop this up, and you know Stevecret has
1:29:27
some misogynist I'm not. But the point is we were a masculine society in
1:29:30
the best ways, and we are losing that very quickly. And a big
1:29:35
part of that is the attack on football, not only football, but that's
1:29:41
that's part of it. And the NFL, unfortunately, which used to be
1:29:45
just an absolute institution of Americana. I mean, if you look at the
1:29:48
end of the NFL shield, John As, I'm sure you're aware, is
1:29:51
literally the American flag, right, I mean, it's you know, it
1:29:55
used to be just Americana personified. It was sort of the the best of
1:30:00
America. And I also agree with you you've made this point. In the
1:30:02
seventies and eighties, Honestly, probably the game went a little too far in
1:30:08
terms of violence, you know, at on field risk, probably did.
1:30:12
So maybe that's part of it is the pendulum had to swing back a bit
1:30:15
because of just how brutal the game was. But boy has it swung back
1:30:20
to a point where it's not even fun or realistic anymore. And life is
1:30:28
about, you know, taking this out of football. You know, life
1:30:32
and a structured and just society should be about analyzing risk in a realistic way,
1:30:39
right, And what are the cost benefits of our life? Right?
1:30:43
We know that there would be no traffic accidents if the speed limit were ten
1:30:45
miles per hour and it was completely adhered to. Right. We know that,
1:30:49
however, there's a massive cost to that economic and otherwise. Right.
1:30:54
We have to take the same approach to all aspects of our life, including
1:30:57
sports, and we know that are the risk of fo Absolutely there are are
1:31:00
the risks worth it. I think they are more than worth it. And
1:31:03
in this case, is it important for our whole society? Is it important
1:31:08
for who we are as a people, who we are as Americans? I
1:31:11
think it's vitally important. And if we if we diminish that attribute of America,
1:31:17
gosh, I think we're gonna lose a lot more than just the cool
1:31:20
game of football. Extremely well said, and just to point one more point
1:31:26
on it, and to me that we were heading in this direction since the
1:31:29
seventies or eighties, but that the COVID panic was an accelerant, both from
1:31:33
a practical standpoint as well as theoretical because I believe in the COVID panic,
1:31:39
we lost our own medical autonomy. Society got this idea that we could make
1:31:45
decisions for other people, to instill for them medical safetyism as you put it,
1:31:51
or or you know, we could make their own risk reward ratio decisions
1:31:57
for them. And that's you can't have foot You can't have real football in
1:32:00
that society, because football is based in the idea that human beings, individuals
1:32:04
can decide, you know what, I'm going to take a medical risk.
1:32:08
I'm gonna do something that's risky, but because I think it's worth it,
1:32:12
and that is a decision that's respected. And sometimes it doesn't work out.
1:32:18
You know, most of the time, I think it does, but sometimes
1:32:20
it doesn't. But once that decision, society subconsciously took it away from the
1:32:26
individual, you cannot play real football, especially when the organization that's running football,
1:32:32
the NFL, has become so corporate, so pc so woke that it's
1:32:38
now in their DNA, and so therefore they're going to do everything they can.
1:32:43
Ironically enough, the more money the NFL makes, the more woosified.
1:32:46
The game will become because they become more and more risk adverse because concussions are
1:32:54
you have this unbelievable cash cow. The National Football League is literally keeping television
1:33:00
in business. Right literally, without the National Football League, there would not
1:33:05
be television networks. So no correct and so so therefore no one's going to
1:33:12
do anything to risk this last great dash cow. There is no live TV
1:33:16
outside of outside of the NFL. There's none. I mean college football to
1:33:19
a minor degree. But you're exactly correct. No, And here's the you're
1:33:24
right, And here's the paradox is, the better football does, You're exactly
1:33:28
correct, the better the NFL does, the more uh entrenched and you know,
1:33:33
sort of held hostage. It is by the ruling class and by you
1:33:38
know, the corporate elites. And this is this is a bigger problem,
1:33:41
of course than football is. Big business in the United States is incredibly intrinsically
1:33:46
and extricably tied to the Democrat Party. And I don't think enough people want
1:33:50
to realize this. And this is part of the America First movement, this
1:33:54
is part of the Trump movement, is to try to break that that all
1:33:59
the I don't believe we have a republic right now. And I know I'm
1:34:02
getting way, you know, far far field now from football, but like
1:34:05
I don't, but I think football is part of it, and I think
1:34:08
is representative of this as this reality in America. I don't think we have
1:34:12
a republic in many ways. I think we're ruled by oligarchs. The oligarchs
1:34:15
so big tech, big media, big pharma, football, the NFL is
1:34:19
hat in hand. Is really hand and glove would be the better analogy.
1:34:24
It is hand and glove with those oligarchic figures, and because of that,
1:34:30
the better they do, the more in mess they become. And if we're
1:34:33
going to get this country back, I think we need a massive populist uprising.
1:34:39
Now you clearly don't agree with me that that uprising is going to be
1:34:42
led by Donald Trump, But I'll tell you this, I think you would
1:34:45
agree with me on this point, whether Trump was the right vehicle or not.
1:34:49
The uprising, the populist revolt, political revolt emanated from this place of
1:34:58
a cronyism that has been super damaging to the fabric of American society. I
1:35:03
have no problem with that. I you know, we can we'll table the
1:35:08
what's wrong with Trump discussion for another podcast appearance, But I want to go
1:35:13
back to the football for a second. I think, just to expand on
1:35:15
your point about, you know, the corporatization of football, and the more
1:35:18
popular it becomes, the worse it is for the sport. I actually think
1:35:23
Taylor Swift's involvement hurt football dramatically because now the NFL looks at and goes,
1:35:29
oh my gosh, we have a brand new demographic from last year, and
1:35:33
what do we have to do to keep that demographic? So they focus on
1:35:38
these fringe young female fans and the core fan guys like you and me,
1:35:43
we don't matter anymore. So the more popular football becomes, the less it
1:35:49
becomes football. Now that's the big picture of football. Let's talk about a
1:35:55
subject, another one that within football that you and I are both passionate about,
1:35:59
and you have actually played a very big role in a lot of different
1:36:01
ways, and that is college football. Not just as a player, but
1:36:05
you also helped Donald Trump in his effort to have a football season during the
1:36:11
COVID panic in twenty twenty. I don't think he got nearly enough political credit
1:36:15
for that. We can talk about that if you like, but I'm very
1:36:20
curious as to your view of the state of college football. And you know
1:36:26
that I have been predicting doom for college football for a very long time from
1:36:31
a lot of different perspectives. I said everyone was going to be naive about
1:36:35
nil and the transfer rules and what that was going to do to the essence
1:36:39
of the sport, That the radical realignment was going to destroy the essence of
1:36:44
what made college football great to begin with. And I think I've been one
1:36:48
hundred percent vindicated in fact that a lot of this stuff has happened way quicker
1:36:53
and more dramatically that even I thought, what is your view of the state
1:36:57
of college football? Is it as bad as I have predicted it would be?
1:37:01
And are you as pessimistic as I am as to what the future holds?
1:37:05
Well to the first part, you've been one hundred percent spot on.
1:37:10
Absolutely, I'm not as pessimist about the future. Let me you know,
1:37:13
so, I'll get to that, But first, uh, you know,
1:37:15
regarding the current state, Yeah, you're you. You've been incredibly prescient on
1:37:20
this point and totally correct. The magic of college football, right is that
1:37:27
it's not pro football, and most of that magic revolves around regionalism. Right,
1:37:32
and you have been so eloquent about this on your show that you know
1:37:36
it mattered a lot to everybody who lives in the state of Arkansas what the
1:37:41
Razorbacks do on Saturday, even if they have no connection to the University of
1:37:44
Arkansas, Right, it mattered to them. And it mattered to them when
1:37:46
they played you know, next door Old Miss that Hey, you know what,
1:37:51
not only is it about the Razorbacks you know are better than Old Miss,
1:37:56
but effectively, and you know you pointed this out, like our men
1:38:00
are tougher and better than your men. It mattered. It mattered a ton
1:38:04
to America. And it's part of the magic and the and the beauty really
1:38:10
of college football is that regionalism. And the more college football unfortunately has become
1:38:15
sort of a you know, watered down NFL. We lose that real that
1:38:19
that pageantry, We lose that regionalism. And the combination right now of what
1:38:25
we have currently of basically open free agency with the transfer portal and an unlimited
1:38:30
no salary cap pay structure through NIL is insanity. As you pointed out,
1:38:34
no pro league could ever survive with open free agency and no salary cap,
1:38:40
right. It would bankrupt any league in a matter of a couple of seasons,
1:38:44
and that's unfortunately where college football is now. Having said all that,
1:38:48
I think I'm a little more optimistic than you about the future because you know,
1:38:53
we have indications and I wrote an article about this American great is that
1:38:56
people want to see sort of the specifics and all the links that I put
1:38:59
in there. But we had at least indications that the major college programs are
1:39:03
at least considering and the granted this was a leak, but I think it
1:39:06
was probably a purposeful link leak. You're in the media business, John,
1:39:11
and I think that that certainly seemed like this wasn't a you know, a
1:39:14
true leak. It was. It was a personal leak that the major college
1:39:18
programs are at least considering a move completely away from the NC double A,
1:39:24
a return to basically regional conference structure, and then limits on transferring and il
1:39:30
if all of that happens, you know, restart the game. Oh my
1:39:33
gosh, we're back, Like you know, let's wave the flat like we're
1:39:38
back. We're going to get this game back that we love. Now it
1:39:40
won't have it for at least a few years if it happens at all.
1:39:43
I have advocated very publicly, and I sent this to President Trump. I
1:39:46
don't know if he read it. One of the reasons John I've been a
1:39:49
prolific writer of editorials over the years is Donald Trump, when he was president,
1:39:54
always read every op ed that I wrote. And you know, I
1:39:57
knew that for a fact, because he would cite them to me. I
1:39:59
don't if he's still reading them, but I hope he is. But part
1:40:01
of why I wrote this op ed was for him, quite frankly, because
1:40:04
I think there's a political role here. Unfortunately. I wish politics didn't need
1:40:08
to get involved, but it does, and not just because it's important to
1:40:11
America, which I think it is culturally. But I think a lot of
1:40:13
people don't realize because some folks again listening might be like, hey, coritests,
1:40:15
I'm not intoccoege football. What the hell? Why should Trump care?
1:40:18
Why should this be a federal government issue? Well, here's the thing.
1:40:20
You are paying for these colleges, whether you know it or not. We
1:40:24
are massive subsidizers as tax payers of these universities, including the private universities.
1:40:30
And by the way, we actually subsidize the private ones more than the public
1:40:32
believe it or not, once you really start looking into it. For example,
1:40:35
Harvard, who was a fifty two billion dollar endowment, gets more federal
1:40:40
money than any other university, even though it doesn't need a dime. So
1:40:43
point is, you're already invested, whether you know it or not. Because
1:40:46
we're paying for them. We should have a say in how they operate in
1:40:49
a lot of ways, but including their football programs. So I think there's
1:40:55
a federal role here. I hope if Trump wins that he takes this up.
1:40:59
And to your point earlier in twenty twenty, and this is John,
1:41:02
you know, if I never accomplished another thing in politics, I'm going to
1:41:05
go to my grave proud of this. And I did it in a quiet
1:41:10
way at that time, although I've talked about it since in the fall of
1:41:13
twenty twenty, when I was really late summer, Whichjuly in August of twenty
1:41:16
twenty, when I was working for the Trump campaign, and it was very
1:41:19
much in doubt whether or not we're going to have a college football season.
1:41:23
At that point, only the SEC said that it was playing. The IVY
1:41:26
League said it was not playing. All of the major Power five conferences,
1:41:30
the other four. Besides, SEC were in flux, and really the Big
1:41:33
ten was the decider. At that time, I was still living in Chicago.
1:41:36
I have a ton of Big ten friends, big donors, people who
1:41:40
are intimately involved in those negotiations. I knew they were not going well,
1:41:44
that the Big ten was at that point likely going to decide to not play
1:41:47
football. And I went directly to President Trump, and to his great credit,
1:41:53
he saw, number one, this is an important message for the country
1:42:00
that we're going to have a college football season. It wasn't perfect, even
1:42:03
if crowds weren't allowed, it was important to play. And number two,
1:42:08
he saw the political benefits of Hey, these are Midwest swing states, Wisconsin,
1:42:14
Michigan, Pennsylvania. These are places that are college football nuts, and
1:42:16
we can earn some political benefits, hopefully from saving the season. And he
1:42:21
went to work. And when I say, he went to work too.
1:42:24
And he did this in a very non Trumpian way because I advised him.
1:42:28
I said, mister President, you can't be seen as the face of leading
1:42:30
this or these universities, particularly the university presidents are going to actually get more
1:42:34
obstinate right against playing. Let's do it. Via Fauci So This is one
1:42:40
John, probably the only time that I thought Fauci was valuable and where he
1:42:44
did something for the country. These universities had such regard for Fauci that the
1:42:49
President and my urging used that Fauci task Force to convince them, hey,
1:42:55
here's how you can safely play football. Of course, by the way,
1:42:59
when I say safely, point is they should have just played freaking football and
1:43:00
not worried about anything. But you and I are, you know, way
1:43:04
off the mainstream, at least at that point right in July. I see,
1:43:10
and Steve, if I commend you and I to lesser degree, I
1:43:12
commend Trump for what he did there. But you kind of implied my view
1:43:16
on this, which is, yeah, you know, he did the right
1:43:21
thing, but I actually think if he had really done the right thing,
1:43:26
it could have won him the election. Not because of college football fans directly,
1:43:30
but to me, what happened with college football in the fall of twenty
1:43:35
twenty was the smoking gutten that the entire COVID reaction was political because to me,
1:43:45
if I was Trump, if I had been advising Trump, not that
1:43:46
I would have listened to me at all. I'm glad he listened to you
1:43:49
to to whatever extent that he did, I would have been out there going,
1:43:53
you know who's not playing football? The liberal Ivy league is that the
1:43:58
world you want to live in. Is that the world you want to live
1:44:00
in. You want to live in a country where the supposedly smart people think
1:44:03
that it's somehow dangerous to play an outside football game. Meanwhile, the real
1:44:09
Americans, the Southeastern Conference and the Big Ten, they want to play football
1:44:14
because they understand what the reality of the world is. They understand what we're
1:44:18
really facing here. They understand that this is not a danger to young athletes
1:44:24
and sitting in stands outside watching a football game is not gonna make you vulnerable
1:44:29
to die of a virus. That should have been the messaging, not this,
1:44:33
well, g we're gonna play this bullshit or limited schedule with no fans
1:44:39
so that we can say we had a season in twenty twenty and it's better
1:44:43
than not having any football at all. To me, was a big solution,
1:44:47
and if it had gone all the way, I think Trump could have
1:44:50
used it to win the election. John I lost a lot of these arguments,
1:44:55
okay, which were internal, I did not have them in public.
1:44:58
Let me give you an example very much related. The entire senior campaign team
1:45:04
was dying for Trump to appear in public with a mask. Okay. It
1:45:09
was a huge argument internally, right that he needs to put a mask on,
1:45:13
right, And where they where they came down was okay, he's going
1:45:15
to go to a hospital, and he went to Walter Reed I think,
1:45:19
or you know, to one of them in the Gospels, and you know,
1:45:20
and wear a mask there because it's like, well, okay, there's
1:45:23
at least sort of a pretense of it's necessary. John, I was the
1:45:27
lone voice saying absolutely never, one thousand percent, he should never put a
1:45:30
mask on he and he should never make an appearance with the mask on.
1:45:36
I obviously lost that argument. Okay, So John, just you know,
1:45:40
like where things ended up is not necessarily where I wanted them to be.
1:45:45
And I hope you can appreciate that I was fighting Mike. I'm not blaming
1:45:47
Steve, I'm not blaming you. I'm I just think that it was a
1:45:50
lack of foresight and frankly a lack of balls. You know, I was
1:45:56
told that there would be balls in the Trump presidency, and and to me,
1:45:59
he showed a complete lack of balls there, and that's why he didn't
1:46:02
get any real credit for there being a semblance of a college football season in
1:46:08
twenty twenty. Now, who knows whether or not it all would have changed
1:46:12
that outcome the election. It could have, I mean, because obviously Michigan,
1:46:15
Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania are our big college football states. And I'm not
1:46:19
even saying that this would. I think this went way beyond college football.
1:46:24
That's good right here to the issue of what kind of a country we're living
1:46:28
in. Unfortunately, as we both know, Trump got caught between these two
1:46:34
worlds of was his response to COVID too strong or too weak? He wanted
1:46:41
to ride the fence. He wanted credit in both directions. We saw that
1:46:44
on the vaccines, where he wants credit for the vaccines, and a lot
1:46:47
of his base doesn't understand that to this day. I mean, you could
1:46:51
put a montage together of Trump's statements about COVID that would make him look like
1:46:56
a complete schizophrenic. I mean yes, I mean it's almost on a daily
1:47:00
basis. One day he sounds like Ronda Sandus, the next day he sounds
1:47:02
like doctor Fauci. I mean, it's maddening. But anyway, look,
1:47:06
I want to go back to college football more specifically for just a second and
1:47:10
where we are in this because to me, why I'm more pessimistic about it.
1:47:15
It's not just because I'm a dinosaur and a traditionalist and I love the
1:47:18
college football the seventies and the eighties and even into the nineties, and then
1:47:23
since then it's been drifting away from the game I fell in love with.
1:47:28
To me, the essence of college football is that in a large part of
1:47:31
the country, especially where you live, it is a religion. Right.
1:47:35
You cannot treat a religion as a pure business and not eventually have people stop
1:47:44
treating it as a religion. Sure you do, you agree with that as
1:47:47
a guy who lives in Tennessee. I mean, you see where I'm going
1:47:50
with that. To me, once that golden goose is killed, it might
1:47:56
take a while. I'm not naive. I think that this play system,
1:48:00
which I fucking hate. I hate this playoff system. I think for the
1:48:04
first year or two it's gonna be popular. I think the ratings will probably
1:48:09
be pretty good. The people are gonna say this is the greatest thing ever.
1:48:13
It's gonna take a while for them to all for everyone to figure it
1:48:16
out. The fervent fan to figure out. Wait a minute, what's the
1:48:20
difference between this and pro football? As you just said, why do I
1:48:24
still care about this? These guys aren't even going to our school because they
1:48:28
care about our school, and we don't even know if they're gonna leave next
1:48:30
year because of these ridiculous transfer rules. And the reason why they're coming here
1:48:35
it might be because some booster decided to pay them a lot of money.
1:48:40
It's not because they have any connection to the school, or they grew up
1:48:43
love being a fan of the school, or they liked our coach. It's
1:48:46
a pure transaction financially, and it has nothing to do with who we are
1:48:50
in the state. It has nothing to do with who we are. Is
1:48:54
Ohio State playing Michigan. There has nothing to do with that. People are
1:48:58
eventually gonna figuring this out. You know, you mentioned the toughness, the
1:49:02
masculinity aspect. People forget. I find this to be someone ironic but also
1:49:08
telling. College football began after the Civil War because, hilariously, in retrospect,
1:49:15
society thought men were getting soft, and so after the Civil War football
1:49:21
began, and football was College football was based in regional rivalries that came right
1:49:28
out of the Civil War. To this day, I believe the South Southeastern
1:49:32
Conference dominates college football in some ways as a result of the Civil War.
1:49:38
I mean, it's really going back to all of that. It hasn't changed
1:49:42
all the game is jage totally has our culture improving, Like, Okay,
1:49:46
we lost this war, but we're tougher than you exactly, totally. Okay.
1:49:51
You know, not that even consciously thinks of that when they step on
1:49:55
the football field in twenty twenty four, but that is absolutely where the culture
1:49:58
of football in the South flowed from one hundred percent, and we see it
1:50:01
on the high school level and clearly on the college level. Once that is
1:50:05
gone and they're doing everything they can to possibly destroy it, I don't see
1:50:12
how you get it back, John. I think there's going to be,
1:50:15
whether it's five, ten, fifteen years, somewhere in that range, there's
1:50:18
going to be a collapse in the passion that fueled the wire engine. John,
1:50:25
you're kind of convincing me here, you know, in the show as
1:50:28
we talk. But honestly, and this is admittedly me just being emotional,
1:50:32
I don't want to envision that world because I just don't want to believe in
1:50:35
it, and gosh, you know you're probably right, but I'm just going
1:50:40
to hope you're wrong. And I again, admittedly that's an emotional response to
1:50:43
me, that's not an intellectual one. But I don't want to live in
1:50:45
that country. And if we are headed there, damn that sucks. Well.
1:50:50
Look, I mean when when USC and UCLA are suddenly playing in the
1:50:55
Big Ten's mean, it's just a complete insanity. And when Nick Saban,
1:51:02
when Nick freaking Saban can't get his team to respond and he decides, screw
1:51:08
it, I'm retiring. I think the Saban retirement it was more than the
1:51:13
Canary and the coal mine. I mean, it was the canary in the
1:51:15
coal mine on steroids? Where my god? How can I mean, Steve,
1:51:20
you know better than I as somebody who's been a player and a coach.
1:51:26
You used to revere your football coach. You may have hated him at
1:51:29
times, but you revered him. You had fear and respect. And now
1:51:34
even Nick Saban can't get players from Alpama to pay attention because they're living in
1:51:40
a completely different culture and they all think they're superstars and they're getting paid and
1:51:45
they think they can go transfer anywhere else they want to go to on a
1:51:48
time. If Nick Saban can't do it, how can anybody else? His
1:51:53
comments at that congressional it really wasn't testimony to that congressional roundtable, you know
1:51:57
that he took part in, talked about this eloquently. His testimony was crushing
1:52:02
to those of us who love the game and love this country. Right when
1:52:05
he said that after losing the you know, a chance of the national championship,
1:52:10
and I was with my daughter who goes to Alabama at the Rose Bowl.
1:52:14
You and I barely miss each other that day, but at the Rose
1:52:15
Bowl, you know, they were a couple of plays away right from winning
1:52:18
another national title. And he said that, you know, days later,
1:52:23
all the players wanted to talk to him about was how much money they were
1:52:27
going to get for the next year. Nick Saban, to your point,
1:52:29
who you know, would have been a previous era, been almost godlike,
1:52:32
and players would have you know, approached him and almost bowed, you know,
1:52:38
right. And you know, but again, let me give you the
1:52:40
counter. And I'm not saying it's likely, John, but let me give
1:52:43
you the counter. Let's say Trump wins. Let's say that this this reform,
1:52:48
which apparently is already happening, is you know, has Wheels has some
1:52:53
momentum. And by the way, part of what I put in my article,
1:52:55
which again I don't know Trump read, but if I get a chance
1:52:57
to talk to him, believe me, I'm going to talk to him about
1:52:59
this. Put Nick Saban in charge of the Federal Commission to Reform college sports,
1:53:03
not just football, all college sports, right because nil and open transfer
1:53:09
is rooming all college sports. And again, we have a stake in this
1:53:12
because we're paying for it, not just a cultural stake, but a financial
1:53:14
stake. That's not impossible. I'm not giving you a one percent scenario like
1:53:19
that could happen. Okay, and if that happens, let's save this sport
1:53:24
and save college sports broadly, save college football. Particularly. If we do,
1:53:30
then we probably no matter what the NFL does, we probably saved college
1:53:32
football at least in the American South, and we have young men who you
1:53:36
know, get to enjoy this sport for decades. I'm just giving you the
1:53:40
optimistic view. I'm not saying it's likely because again you kind of won me
1:53:44
over, unfortunately to your cynical side. But it's not impossible that that could
1:53:47
happen. Well, I'll make I'll make you this deal. If this is
1:53:50
obviously fictitious and theoretical, But if if I knew that Donald Trump was gonna
1:53:56
do what you just said, and he was going to appoint Nick Saban and
1:54:00
and you would be Nick Saban's top assistant, and they were actually going to
1:54:03
have the power to save college football and college athletics, that would actually win
1:54:08
me Trump's vote. I would vote for Donald Trump. I would vote for
1:54:11
Donald Trump under that scenario, even though you know that's not likely to actually
1:54:15
happen. But that's how strongly I feel about the issue. I would be
1:54:19
able to overcome all of my loathings and fears and concerns about a second Trump
1:54:25
term if I had any confidence that he would have the ability and the power
1:54:30
to actually change that, because it's a travesty I mean to me. You
1:54:35
know, I'm a big believer, Steve that one of the weaknesses of many
1:54:39
in humanity is that we tend to look at everything great and try to destroy
1:54:45
it, either consciously or subconsciously. And if you look at the history of
1:54:49
humanity, you know there are many, many, many, many examples of
1:54:54
this and I can think of no worse example in modern American society than what
1:54:59
we done to college football. College football was the greatest sport we ever created,
1:55:04
as you said, purely American, uniquely American, and we have dismantled
1:55:11
and destroyed virtually every aspect of it far more quickly than even I thought was
1:55:15
possible. And in fact, that's my only source of hope. My only
1:55:20
source of hope here is that it could be so catastroctically bad that we go,
1:55:25
whoa, whoa, wait a minute, wait a minute, we got
1:55:29
to do something drastic to fix this, because this is just terrible. My
1:55:31
fear is that this playoffs system is gonna, you know, is going to
1:55:36
work in the short run, and people are going to think, well,
1:55:39
actually this is all fine and good. We kind of like this, you
1:55:42
know, change is good. This is the modern era. Young people like
1:55:45
this kind of whole deal, and it's you know, it's liberating and freedom
1:55:49
for players to be able to go to whatever school they want and get paid
1:55:51
and blah blah blah. So that's where I think we're heading. But a
1:55:56
lot of me is hoping for complete and total chaos and destruction so that there
1:56:00
will be at least some pushback and maybe, just maybe some of this can
1:56:04
be saved. I'm not a delusion lump to think we can ever go back
1:56:08
to where we were in the seventies or the eighties when you and I were
1:56:11
growing up. But it's got to be something better than where we currently are.
1:56:15
And you know, I don't know. I mean, I'm hopeful if
1:56:18
Donald Trump could be part of that, that would be that would be fantastic.
1:56:24
Where do you see last question for you, Steve, where do you
1:56:26
see your situation going with regard to this race? And do you think there's
1:56:31
any hope of you returning to the Trump camp? You know, I don't
1:56:36
know. As the honest answer, I am hopeful that I can be useful
1:56:41
to him on television, and I think right now there is a dearth of
1:56:45
credible persuasive television people. Frankly advocating on Trump's behalf. I think the Democrats
1:56:51
have a far more robust surgut operation than the Republicans do. I think Biden
1:56:56
has very capable, very good television sits. When I say good, not
1:57:00
that I agree with them, of course, I'm just saying, you know,
1:57:02
good at their at their skill in terms of their craft. We do
1:57:05
not have that on the on the right, and we don't have that on
1:57:09
team Trump. Is Trump going to sort of get over my desantists departure enough
1:57:15
to say yes, Steve, we need you, you know, and sort
1:57:17
of reanoint me. Frankly, I don't know. I hope that happens,
1:57:21
because I think it's important for him. I think it's important for the country,
1:57:24
and I'm ready and willing to do so, you know, at a
1:57:27
second's notice. But long winded way of telling you, John, I just
1:57:32
I don't know fair enough. Well, Steve, thanks so much for your
1:57:36
time. You've been very generous as always, It's always fascinating to talk to
1:57:40
you. Obviously, we'll keep in touch and I'm sure we'll have you on
1:57:44
the podcast again before the election. Thanks so much for your time. Fantastic.
1:57:46
Thank you, John, Thanks so much to Steve Cortez. Thank you
1:57:50
for subscribing to the podcast. Thanks for listening. Have a great Memorial Day
1:57:55
weekend. We'll be back on our normal taping schedule, hopefully starting next week
1:57:59
after the Memorial Day. Until then, this has been the Death of Journalism
1:58:01
podcast. And my name is John Zigler.