Latest / The Reverse Aging Club with Meredith Oke / 123: Anders Bolling - Escaping Misery Bias: How This Journalist Found Truth Beyond Mainstream Media

Transcript

123: Anders Bolling - Escaping Misery Bias: How This Journalist Found Truth Beyond Mainstream Media · The Reverse Aging Club with Meredith Oke

5:00
Meredith Oke: Welcome to the QVC podcast. I am really looking
5:04
forward to this conversation.
5:07
Anders Bolling: Thank you for having me. Me too. I'm also looking
5:09
forward to this conversation.
5:11
Meredith Oke: Yeah. So we had a delightful discussion when I
5:15
was on Mind the Shift recently, and I sent that
5:18
link out to my audience and they were all very
5:22
excited to find your show, the type of thing that
5:25
they all really appreciate. I wanted to dive into
5:30
your story because on this podcast we. We talk to
5:35
a lot of doctors and we, you know, health
5:39
professionals who have broken out of kind of the
5:43
mainstream, you know, infrastructure that they
5:47
came up in, whether it's. In whether it's
5:50
allopathic or even alternative. Right. There's
5:52
just so many new paradigms of health opening up
5:55
that we tend to talk to people who are more
5:57
breaking out of whatever it was that's no longer
6:01
serving them or answering their questions. And
6:03
you have done a similar. You've been on a similar
6:07
path, but in the area of journalism, which I
6:11
think is crucial because that is how we learn. We
6:15
get all of our information, most of us. So tell
6:19
me a little bit about what kind of journalism you
6:21
did when you were a, quote, unquote, regular
6:24
journalist and then we'll start sort of explore
6:26
where you are now.
6:27
Anders Bolling: Sure. Thank you. Yes. Well, I trained to become a
6:32
journalist when I was in my 20s and I really
6:37
looked forward to doing that. I had been looking
6:39
forward to becoming a journalist since I was, I
6:42
guess, 15 years old or something like that. When
6:45
I was a kid, I read these comic books with the
6:50
hero was called Tintin. I don't know if you have.
6:53
You do, I guess. It's a Belgian, serious. Anyway,
6:57
he was a journalist, but he was all. Always on
7:00
all these fantastic adventures all over the
7:02
world. So it looked really cool. And he never
7:05
wrote anything that I can remember, didn't write
7:09
any articles. So it seemed like a very
7:10
interesting life. And when I was like, you know,
7:14
seven or eight or nine or something, I wanted to
7:16
become a discoverer of the world. But then I
7:19
realized, oh, every landmass has already been
7:23
discovered. So I can't. I can't do this. I have
7:25
to do something else. Anyway, so that's the
7:27
background. And I wanted to become a journalist,
7:29
but I took a couple of, you know, gap years to
7:33
travel before I studied. And then I became a
7:38
journalist and I got this job at the biggest
7:40
newspaper in the biggest morning newspaper in
7:44
Sweden. I'm living in Stockholm, Sweden, Northern
7:47
Europe. After having had brief sojourns at other
7:55
outlets, I ended up Douglas New Hatter Daily News
7:58
biggest Newspaper. So I was there for 22 years
8:02
as. As full time with a full time job there. I
8:07
had been there a couple of times before, just
8:09
briefly, but then 22 years. Okay. From 1998.
8:13
Meredith Oke: So you were employed full time as a newspaper
8:16
journalist for over 20 years. Okay. @ a major.
8:19
Anders Bolling: I had.
8:19
Meredith Oke: Major Swedish publication.
8:21
Anders Bolling: Exactly. I had different kinds of jobs. I was a
8:24
reporter, I was an editor. I did different
8:27
things, but. But I was there for 22 years. Yes.
8:32
Meredith Oke: And so did you cover all kinds of different
8:35
things like politics, culture, all the things.
8:39
Anders Bolling: I was always. As we might come back to. I was
8:42
always interested in the deep questions in life,
8:45
you know, the big questions, where, who are we?
8:47
Where do we come from? And all that. And I had
8:49
spiritual streak, a spiritual orientation already
8:52
from childhood. But I kind of kept that under
8:55
wraps because I kind of sensed that that wasn't
8:58
really what you could talk about openly. But I
9:02
was all I was. I've always been interested also
9:05
in what's happening in society, foreign policy,
9:08
economics, science, all kinds of stuff. So I
9:12
wrote about all kinds of stuff. And when I was an
9:14
editor, I had edited. I. I was working with other
9:18
reporters, writing about these different kinds of
9:20
things, the environment. I also wrote some
9:25
columns, more personalized things where I shared
9:33
my look on things, my worldview. So that was kind
9:37
of nice. Then I had a blog for five years. I ran
9:42
a blog called the Progress Blog, which was aimed
9:47
to describe the world in brighter colors than we
9:52
normally do in news journalism, because it's. And
9:57
it was tied to a book that I wrote in 2008, and
10:00
it came out in 2009, and it was called the Cozy
10:04
Darkness of the Apocalypse. So that's where I
10:06
kind of my first, you know, kind of. What's the
10:12
word? When I dealt with. With news journalism,
10:16
and I had struggled with it within. And so I had
10:21
many things to say about it. And I was critical
10:22
to the. To the misery bias that is kind of in the
10:29
dramaturgy of news journalism. So I wrote a book
10:33
about that and where I also displayed so many
10:39
facts, waves and waves and waves of facts,
10:41
showing that the world is not as bad as we think
10:43
it is. And it was about the environment, about
10:46
violence and about poverty broadly. And then it
10:52
was kind of in detail as well. And I also
10:54
speculated what this misery bias is, what the
11:00
causes are behind this misery bias, and there are
11:03
all kinds of explanations for it. It's a human
11:06
trait, because I think we have in the lizard
11:08
brain this tendency or we're prone to search for
11:16
a scan for danger. And that was probably a useful
11:22
trait 10,000 years ago or 100,000 years ago when
11:26
our ancestors lived in caves and there were
11:28
different dangerous animals are around and
11:32
wildfires to keep track of and all kinds of
11:35
stuff. But it's not really useful in our day and
11:38
age in this society where, I mean day to day life
11:41
is hardly ever lethal. I mean, the dangers are
11:45
not lethal, but we still have this tendency.
11:47
Meredith Oke: But if you just read newspapers and that's it,
11:51
you stayed alone in a room, you never went out,
11:53
you only read newspapers, you would not know that
11:56
we are not, generally speaking, on a day to day
11:59
basis under threat. It would feel.
12:01
Anders Bolling: Exactly.
12:02
Meredith Oke: The newspapers make us feel that. Misery bias, I
12:05
love that term. That's absolutely what it is.
12:08
Anders Bolling: Yes. And I also think about the misery threshold.
12:11
The threshold over which we, I mean, where we put
12:16
the, where we start talking about misery and bad
12:19
things, it gets lower and lower all the time. If
12:22
you go back to 300 years, it was probably a much
12:25
higher threshold before people actually thought
12:28
that something was a big problem. Probably, you
12:30
know, it had to be large catastrophes, big worse
12:33
and stuff like that. We still have that, that's
12:36
for sure. But I mean, newspapers can make war
12:41
headlines out of things that are far, far less
12:44
dangerous today. So we lower the misery threshold.
12:49
Meredith Oke: It's interesting, I really noticed that living
12:53
overseas because I lived in places and a few
12:57
different times there were major, major events
13:01
happening that were in the area that I was living
13:05
in, that had headlines, global headlines. And I
13:10
would get messages from people like, I lived in
13:14
Paris when or near Paris during, when there was
13:18
that attack in the nightclub in the Bataclan.
13:22
Anders Bolling: 2015, I think.
13:23
Meredith Oke: Yeah, it was 2015 because we just moved there.
13:26
And it was a terrible, terrible incident. It was
13:30
major terrorist incident. However, I had people
13:35
for days and days reaching out, are you okay? Are
13:38
you okay? And outside of the, the one block
13:43
radius where that terrible event occurred, I was
13:46
like, yes, I'm, I'm at, I'm in the grocery store,
13:49
I'm buying my groceries. And so, you know, life
13:52
was going on. But it was interesting to me
13:55
because the entire perception of all of, you
13:59
know, oh, you're in France, you must be living
14:01
through this terrorist event. And it was like.
14:04
Because that's what everyone's focus was on,
14:09
their attention was on and they connected those
14:11
two things. And I just thought, isn't this
14:13
interesting? Like, how often have I done that
14:15
where I've just painted an entire region based on
14:18
one incident that's getting my full attention and
14:22
the attention of the world.
14:24
Anders Bolling: Yeah, it's very healthy to be out abroad
14:27
sometimes and see it from that perspective and
14:29
also read foreign newspapers, what they write
14:32
about your own country. Because as you say, I
14:35
mean, when I was at this big newspaper in
14:37
Stockholm, we wrote stuff about, you know, what
14:41
was happening. There is a narrative. We don't
14:43
have to go into the politics of everything, but
14:45
there is a. There is a certain narrative that is
14:47
told that we are told in the Western world. And
14:50
there's a slightly different narrative about the
14:52
world told in Eastern Europe and in Russia and in
14:55
China and as we all know, so different
14:57
narratives. And I tend to think that there is
15:00
some truth to all of them, but they're not. None
15:03
of them is entirely the whole truth, so to speak.
15:05
So there was a lot of, you know, kind of self,
15:10
from our perspective, self evident things to say
15:13
about Hungary and Turkey and countries like that.
15:17
But then it's interesting to read or get to know
15:21
what they, the newspapers in those countries
15:23
write about Sweden and things that are happening
15:26
in this country. And it's kind of, you know,
15:29
people get. They feel attacked, you know, because
15:36
I mean, personally when they read these things.
15:38
But no, that's not me, that's not my country.
15:40
That's not what's happening. You don't know
15:41
what's happening here. It's nothing, nothing
15:43
dangerous. But. But they are focusing, of course,
15:45
on certain things that are happening in this
15:48
country and that are in some countries. That in
15:50
some countries get to be very big headlines. Like
15:54
we have this gang violence, you might call it
15:57
groups, gangs of youngsters, mainly young people
16:02
who have come from other countries, from
16:04
countries in the Middle east and Somalia and
16:05
stuff like, and places like that. And there's
16:08
some kind of a turf war around, you know, the
16:13
cocaine and the drugs trade. And for some reason
16:17
they've started using guns here. It's really
16:20
bizarre. And I'm not denying that this is a big
16:23
problem. It is a big problem, but it's not
16:25
affecting everybody here. I mean, if I didn't
16:27
read about it in newspapers, I wouldn't know it
16:29
was going on. I'm living in Stockholm. I know
16:32
there have been many shootings in this area in
16:36
the suburbs of Stockholm. I've never heard a shot
16:38
being fired once. So I mean, it's the same thing.
16:43
But then if you think about it, I mean, why
16:46
wouldn't these countries, the newspapers in those
16:48
countries write about Sweden in that way? It's
16:50
logical if we write, I mean, if we pick up some
16:54
problem that's happening there It's a bit. Both a
16:58
bit sad and a bit funny and a bit ridiculous that
17:00
we look upon each other in this way. How we
17:03
cannot see the whole story and the whole truth
17:06
and just try to be neutral about things. And
17:10
there's a lot we could say about, for instance,
17:12
what's happening in Ukraine and all that. I don't
17:14
think we should dive into that, but it's
17:18
fascinating. I try to stay. I try to stay as
17:22
neutral as possible in all these matters. I'm
17:26
still interested in the news. I try not to follow
17:28
the news as much because I kind of was marinated
17:30
in it for so many years. So, I mean, to stay
17:33
sane, I need to stay away from the news. I don't
17:37
listen to it 247 like I did, but I kind of check
17:41
the headlines and read a couple of articles every
17:44
day. So I know what's going on. The big, big
17:47
picture. And you can't miss the big things, of
17:49
course. But I try to stay neutral. And it's,
17:52
It's. It's incredible how people, you know, crawl
17:56
into their different boxes and. And just see the
18:00
world from one perspective. It's. It's so
18:03
polarized. I don't know. And that's something
18:05
that. I mean, my credo. Credo has been for many
18:09
years that the world is better than we think. But
18:11
this is actually something that's accentuated as
18:16
being accentuated lately, this polarization. I
18:18
wonder what it. Why, why that is. Because I would
18:22
say that these, These opinions, that some people
18:25
are shocked that they exist now, they have always
18:30
been there. That's. I would say that I think they
18:32
have always been there, but they haven't been
18:33
able. They haven't. People have always had
18:36
different views on things, but now they are so.
18:39
It's so easy, you know, to express them by way of
18:43
social media and all kinds of alternative media
18:47
and all that. So we can see it. We can see it
18:50
being said and being expressed. And I don't think
18:55
people should be so shocked about that because
18:58
we're different. We're 8 billion different angles
19:02
on reality and we should respect each other and
19:06
listen to each other. And we don't have to agree
19:09
with each other. Absolutely not. But we should
19:13
kind of be better at listening to each other and
19:16
trying to understand what the other person means
19:19
when he says or she says certain things. Because
19:21
it's sometimes like people are just shut down
19:23
when they hear that somebody is on a particular
19:28
political spectrum. They just shut down all, you
19:32
know, ability to.
19:34
Meredith Oke: I think we've been encoded in Some way to trigger
19:37
a shutdown. Upon hearing certain words, the names
19:40
of political parties, the names of certain
19:42
politicians. I tend to avoid saying them because
19:47
I. I want this podcast to, like, transcend
19:51
politics. Yeah, everyone has. Everyone's in the
19:55
quantum field, right? Everyone has mitochondria.
19:56
We all deserve to know. So. And I feel like as
19:59
soon as you say certain things, we've been
20:01
programmed, Right. You hear a certain word, a
20:05
certain name, or someone says that they're
20:08
affiliated with a certain party, and it's like,
20:10
boom, the mind closes and you feel almost
20:16
triggered, like, oh, like a betrayal. Like, here
20:19
I was listening to this. It just happened to me
20:21
yesterday. I was listening to this coach who I
20:24
really like. She's. You know, she was sharing all
20:27
this stuff, and then she said something about her
20:29
feelings on a political situation, and I just
20:32
felt myself go, and I felt betrayed because it
20:35
was different than mine. And I thought, oh, my
20:37
goodness. Oh, we have all these programmed.
20:41
Anders Bolling: Yeah, we're programmed. It's. It's sad, but it's.
20:44
It's also very interesting. But I think it has.
20:48
It's part of the. Sorry, part of the health. It's
20:52
part of our health, actually. I mean, your
20:54
podcast is all about health and quantum health,
20:58
which is wonderful. And I think what we're
21:01
discussing now is actually part of that, because
21:03
being healthy is also about being able to see the
21:11
whole world and also to be able to dare to
21:17
question things and speaking your own truth and
21:20
all those things without fear and not being so.
21:26
You know, we're so scared of being on the wrong
21:28
team or being on the wrong side or. It's not that
21:32
we're only humans and we're only people, and it
21:35
has to do with our health, because if we kind of
21:38
block ourselves from certain parts of this
21:41
reality, I think we end up blocking also energy,
21:49
energy lines, energy fields in our bodies. And I
21:54
think it's bad. I think we should be open.
21:56
Meredith Oke: Yes, no, I completely agree. And that's why I
21:59
wanted to talk to you, because we don't. I think
22:03
even the categorization of physical health and
22:09
mental health, I think those categories are
22:11
fading away. Just like politically, the left and
22:13
right is starting to be meaningless. You know,
22:15
like these. These compartments that we've been
22:19
trained to put everything in are no longer valid.
22:23
They're no longer useful. And so if health is
22:26
just health, spiritual, mental, emotional,
22:28
physical, psychological, then how we process
22:32
information, which is in large part through
22:36
media, whether legacy media, traditional media,
22:39
social media, we need to understand how to do
22:44
that without going crazy, without Getting
22:49
triggered and with a level, as we were talking
22:53
about before, with a level of discernment as we
22:57
were. So we're moving into this new media
22:59
landscape and you've been on the forefront of
23:00
that. You were traditional newspaper then you did
23:03
a blog, now you have your YouTube channel where
23:08
you get to cover whatever you want because it's
23:10
yours. But thousands and thousands of people are
23:14
doing that. So it's become a very busy media
23:19
landscape. We used to have four choices and now
23:22
we have 4 million choices. So talk to me about
23:29
that word discernment and how in this new
23:32
landscape where there are so many more choices,
23:38
there are so many people like yourself, right.
23:41
Who have been trained to deliver information and
23:45
are choosing to do it in a new way versus people
23:48
who just are like, I'm just going to turn on the
23:50
camera and start talking. I've never done this
23:51
before. That's all good too. It's all good. But
23:54
how do we make sure that we are. I know we can't
24:01
really make sure of anything, I guess, but how do
24:03
we practice discernment in this very crowded
24:06
media landscape? Would you say?
24:08
Anders Bolling: Very, very. Yeah, very good question. I'm not
24:10
sure I have a wise enough answer to that
24:14
question. But it is, as you say, I mean, the
24:17
landscape is so broad now and, but it's also,
24:20
it's like everything that happened, the big
24:22
changes that happened, they contain both
24:24
opportunities and threats. It's like the, the old
24:28
saying that the Chinese sign for crisis comprise
24:33
is comprised of the sign for or the character
24:36
for. What is it now? Threat and opportunity. I
24:42
think it's threat and opportunity. This is the
24:44
definition of a crisis. So there's always an
24:47
opportunity in this myriad that we see, myriad
24:51
new outlets that we see and can access. But I
24:59
think the Internet in general is such a big
25:02
opportunity. I tend to think of it as kind of the
25:06
approximation of the akashic Records, the 3D
25:09
version of the Akashic records. It's kind of a
25:11
nice try, but we're not really there. But I mean,
25:15
because for real, it is actually very, very easy
25:18
now for people. I mean, despite the attempts at
25:23
censoring people and stuff like that, it is very
25:26
easy to find very, very interesting information
25:29
about things that you will never actually learn
25:33
in the, the legacy media or very seldom, at least
25:37
you can, you can hear about them out about those
25:39
things in, in alternative media perhaps. But I
25:43
think it's actually, of course people say, I
25:49
don't have time to check everything up. I need
25:51
the media to tell me what's true and what's not
25:54
true. But I think that time is over. The time
25:56
when we could rely on authorities to tell us what
26:00
is true and not true. The time when we rely on
26:03
authorities to tell us what's happening and not
26:05
happening and what we should do and not do and
26:08
what we should vote for and not vote for. I mean,
26:11
if you go back 50, 60 years, people were. People
26:14
tend to romanticize that time and say, oh, it was
26:16
much more calm, the society was calm and
26:19
everybody agreed on everything. But I think
26:22
that's actually a false narrative. I think it was
26:25
more like people just assumed that authorities
26:28
were trustworthy, they were to be trusted,
26:32
because people didn't think for themselves as
26:35
much. It was more hierarchical in that sense. And
26:38
you went to a doctor and the doctor told you what
26:40
you were sick of and you just accepted that.
26:43
People don't do that anymore. They kind of want a
26:45
second opinion and they think for themselves and
26:47
they're skeptical. And that's a good thing. It
26:50
makes the world a messier place and a more
26:53
complex and confused place. But I think that's a
26:57
necessary process. And same with what you read in
27:00
the papers and here on the TV news or whatever.
27:04
Check it up for yourself if you can. If you have
27:07
the time, just go to the Internet and search. Try
27:10
to find the. The primary sources for everything,
27:12
if it's possible. Because it's oftentimes not as
27:16
simple as you were being presented it to be. When
27:21
it comes to science, for instance, or health or
27:23
the ua, the UFO phenomenon, which I've lately
27:27
been very interested in, or there are so many
27:29
things happening, so discernment, that's one
27:35
thing. I mean, that's the practical way of, of
27:37
looking into things for yourself. But also trust
27:41
your own judgment because we are all, if I am to
27:46
be a bit esoteric now, we are all aspects of
27:50
source, if you will, and we have much greater
27:57
capacity than we are led to believe. If we just
28:02
listen to our inner voices and our higher selves
28:05
and sit in stillness five or 10 minutes now and
28:09
then and just let things sink in and don't think
28:12
actively about them with your brain, but just let
28:14
them sink in. And then oftentimes when you come
28:19
out of that still little period, you have better
28:22
discernment actually just by doing that, just by
28:25
meditating a little bit or just by not doing
28:27
anything for five minutes, it helps. I think
28:31
that's a good practice. I try to meditate every
28:33
morning, or I do, but not every meditation
28:36
session is extremely deep. But most of the time
28:41
it's really, really good. It makes one start the
28:45
day on a much better and calmer note than if you
28:52
don't do it.
28:52
Meredith Oke: So, yeah, and I think that's really wise to
28:59
approach the media that way. And for myself, over
29:03
time, I can now it's super clear to me when the
29:09
headline has an agenda of some sort. And so then
29:13
it's like, okay, well, take that with a grain of
29:15
salt. Take that with a grain of salt. And then
29:17
you finally find someone who's covering it in a
29:21
somewhat neutral, or at least maybe with a
29:24
different agenda, so they're highlighting a
29:27
different aspect of it and really have to like,
29:29
put all these puzzle pieces together and see the
29:33
voices that come through who are most often
29:39
dedicated to really just wanting to know what's
29:41
happening and not to as driving a bias in some
29:47
sort of direction. And yeah, it's a journey.
29:51
Anders Bolling: It's a journey. It's also, we, you have to also
29:55
respect, I mean, everybody. We are all human.
29:58
We're all human. And I've been, As I said, 22
30:00
years at this big newspaper. And I can add, by
30:03
the way, that the blog that I had was actually
30:05
within that newspaper. So that was my thing that
30:08
I was able to have it on there. But so I know, I
30:13
know how, I know the drill, so to speak, and I
30:16
know how people tend to. And this is natural. It
30:20
happens in every workplace. There is a certain
30:23
amount of groupthink and it's, it's, it's, it's
30:27
not very good, but it's natural. I mean, it's
30:30
explicable, explainable. It's, it happens. So
30:34
it's not that. It's, if you, if you, if you find
30:37
certain media outlets being not trustworthy, not
30:42
reliable, especially not reliable, certain media
30:47
outlets, perhaps you have to respect that people
30:50
working there, or most of them are not, I mean,
30:53
they are convinced that they're doing a good
30:56
thing. And so it's, it's just, you know, hard to
31:03
just go against the stream sometimes. And. Well,
31:07
there are certain narratives and there is,
31:09
there's a lot of narratives. I mean, science, for
31:12
instance. I'm also now engaged in an organization
31:16
called the Frontier Journalists Network, which is
31:19
something that your listeners might be interested
31:21
in checking out, perhaps. And we are, it's a very
31:25
small organization still, but we want to convey
31:28
to journalists around the world the science, the
31:34
research that is happening at the interface of
31:37
the, the nexus, if you will, between science and
31:42
spirituality. And there is a lot of things
31:44
happening there, which is exciting, actually. Not
31:49
least the Research on consciousness and what
31:52
consciousness is. And it's getting closer and
31:54
closer and closer to, I mean the mainstream
31:56
science there, there neuroscientists are getting
32:01
closer and closer and closer to, to spiritual
32:06
traditions that have been there for thousands of
32:08
years. And it's really exciting. And this is
32:10
actually happening. It's not, I mean it's peer
32:12
reviewed papers, but this has not sunk into the
32:16
mainstream media yet. It will, it will. I've
32:20
written a couple of articles and I'm very
32:22
grateful that I've been able to publish one big
32:25
long read in a mainstream news magazine here in
32:29
Sweden about the latest findings in consciousness
32:33
research. And, but there is a going back to this
32:38
group think and, and the narratives that we're
32:40
being told for decades and decades. This is a
32:43
good example of that because journalists are,
32:46
they tend to, you know, stick to the, what is the
32:49
mainstream view in, in certain, all kinds of
32:54
areas. A few of them can sometimes take it, take
32:59
a detour and write a, you know, a column about
33:02
some new woo woo. But you know, news articles are
33:07
mainly following the mainstream path. But, but
33:13
that is actually moving now. It's a moving
33:16
target. But most journalists don't know that yet.
33:19
So it's, but I mean it's difficult to, it's, it's
33:22
not really fair to blame the journalists for not
33:25
being on the front, you know, the cutting edge of
33:29
this development here because they will
33:31
eventually. But there is an inertia.
33:34
Meredith Oke: Yeah. Well, it's interesting you say that because
33:37
I really think, you know, we get so mad at the
33:41
bureaucrats and the, the politicians and the
33:46
journalists. But I'm not sure, you know, I don't
33:49
think it's the people who are terrible. I think
33:51
it's the systems that are, have terrible
33:55
incentives. So you know, I, someone was saying
33:59
like, why are, who are all these incompetent
34:01
people? Like why can't they hire better people?
34:04
And I'm like, they're probably fine. They
34:06
probably have the potential to be highly
34:08
competent. But bureaucracy incentivizes
34:10
incompetence. Right. And politics incentivizes
34:15
corruption and the medical system incentivizes
34:19
treating symptoms with drugs.
34:22
Anders Bolling: Yeah.
34:22
Meredith Oke: And that's, and we just kind of lean into it. And
34:26
so what I hear saying for journalists it's like
34:28
you're incentivized to stay in the boat and not
34:32
rock it. And is the punishment for that losing
34:37
your job, losing your reputation? Right. Because
34:40
I know people who are like viscerally terrified
34:43
of touching a woo woo subject because they really
34:46
think it will destroy their credibility they want
34:48
to.
34:48
Anders Bolling: They don't want others to put the tinfoil hat on
34:50
their heads. Yeah, they're terrified of that. I
34:54
can understand that. But I'm out of that now. I
34:56
don't, I don't care anymore. I care a little bit,
34:58
but not too much because I haven't. I mean, I've
35:00
been a freelancer for five years now, and I've
35:03
been out there so much. And I know that I have. I
35:06
have a soul family all over the world.
35:09
Meredith Oke: Yeah.
35:10
Anders Bolling: That thinks and feels the same way that I do. So
35:12
I'm, I'm, I'm fine. But if I were still in that
35:17
situation, I would probably feel a bit scared
35:20
about that. Yeah. Because everybody wants to be
35:22
in the group, on the right side, on the, you
35:25
know, the sane side of things. And this is. The
35:30
UFO phenomenon is the same thing here, actually.
35:35
But what's, what's good about it is that, that
35:38
it's been discussed in Congress. I mean, these
35:43
are.
35:44
Meredith Oke: Let's unpack that one. What do you see happening
35:47
with that topic right now?
35:48
Anders Bolling: Well, people who have been working in, you know,
35:52
with. Both in the private sector and in the
35:55
public sector with security on a high level,
35:58
they've been working in the military. They are
36:01
trained officers who have worked for many years
36:04
in the military special operations, and have come
36:10
to work with these very secretive, These covert
36:15
operations that have to do with retrieving
36:19
unidentified anomalous phenomena, craft et craft
36:24
probably, and transporting them to certain
36:28
facilities where they have been. Certain special
36:33
people have tried to reverse engineer those
36:36
craft. And this has been going on for probably 70
36:40
to 80 years. And this is what you hear in
36:42
congressional hearings now. There have been,
36:46
there have been two of those, one in 20, 23 and
36:49
one last year with people who are.
36:52
Meredith Oke: You have members of Congress sit and listen to
36:56
the testimony of people participating in the
36:59
activities you just described.
37:00
Anders Bolling: Yes.
37:01
Meredith Oke: Okay. And so this is on the record.
37:04
Anders Bolling: This is on the record.
37:05
Meredith Oke: All right.
37:05
Anders Bolling: And it's been. And some of the mainstream papers,
37:08
they have written about these hearings, of
37:10
course. I mean, that otherwise would be really
37:13
strange. They have, but it's, it's like they kind
37:16
of. They don't really believe it anyway. It's
37:18
like it's too, it's too far out. So they had to,
37:22
you know, add some kind of. They have to
37:24
formulate it or word it in a way that it's a
37:26
little bit tongue in cheek sometimes, perhaps, or
37:31
always end the articles with a little bit of
37:33
skepticism. But it's coming out there more and
37:36
more, and I don't know about this latest
37:39
administration that is now in place in the United
37:41
States. It's very early to say what's going to
37:44
happen with many things around that. But anyway,
37:48
this is one of the things that they have said.
37:49
People in that administration have said that they
37:52
will disclose what has been going on in this
37:55
area. And so it's very, very interesting,
37:57
interesting times. And if you're really into the
38:01
woo woo stuff and listen to people who are
38:04
channeling and stuff like that, which I do
38:06
sometimes, I find it very fascinating. I can't
38:08
say that I am convinced that everything that is
38:11
actually an extraterrestrial entity that
38:15
communicates through a channel, but doesn't
38:17
really matter because what is being said is often
38:19
very wise and often very interesting. And some of
38:21
those people have been saying that this is the
38:24
time of disclosure and we are soon going to see
38:27
actual craft hovering above cities and people are
38:31
not going to be able to deny that they're
38:33
actually there. So we will see. We had these, you
38:35
know, so called the drone crisis in New Jersey
38:39
and some other places, mainly over New Jersey.
38:41
And they were. This is still a very, very
38:44
unsolved matter. It's been, you know, dismissed
38:49
by, by the authorities as. No, no, it's totally
38:52
fine. It's just drones. But there are a lot of,
38:56
there is a lot of video footage from not only
38:59
civilians but from mayors and from police
39:02
officers that show, you know, that this is not
39:06
just ordinary drones. Some are probably, some
39:11
are, but not all of them. There is something
39:14
strange going on there and I don't know, maybe,
39:15
maybe it's all man made. But then they have to
39:18
because these craft are moving in such strange
39:22
ways sometimes that they have to. In that case,
39:25
if FAA has, has, you know, authorized all these,
39:31
these operations, they have to explain what's
39:33
going on. Otherwise we don't. It is something
39:38
fishy going on. Maybe it's not ETs, but it's in.
39:41
Meredith Oke: This case it's something at the very least, it's
39:43
advanced technology that nobody has. And
39:45
knowledge exists, whether it was made on this
39:50
planet or somewhere else.
39:51
Anders Bolling: Yeah, maybe on this planet, but with technology
39:54
that we have retrieved from reverse engineered
39:57
from retrieved. Did you hear this? Or these
40:01
interviews and these episodes on News nations
40:06
with the journalist Ross Coltheart who
40:08
interviewed Jack Barber.
40:11
Meredith Oke: Yes, you did actually. It's funny. Bring it up. I
40:14
just listened to it two days ago.
40:15
Anders Bolling: Okay.
40:16
Meredith Oke: Because I heard someone on YouTube talk about it.
40:20
Anders Bolling: Yeah, it's fascinating.
40:22
Meredith Oke: It was. They did. I thought. I didn't really, I
40:25
hadn't. Wasn't familiar with News Nation as an
40:27
outlet. I thought they did a beautiful job
40:32
covering that story and respectfully and treating
40:37
all of their interview subjects respectfully, but
40:39
also not, you know, sensationalizing it and
40:44
jumping to conclusions, just staying with the
40:47
facts as they were being related and what they
40:49
could back up with video. And I thought they. I
40:53
thought they did a really nice job.
40:55
Anders Bolling: Yeah, me too.
40:56
Meredith Oke: Journalistically speaking.
40:58
Anders Bolling: I understand Ross Coulthard had, you know, vetted
41:04
this man, Jake Barber, and some other people that
41:08
were on his show as well for a couple of years.
41:11
So he really, really. Yeah, he really worked a
41:14
lot beforehand to make it possible because he. I
41:18
mean, he's a serious journalist. And this is a
41:20
good thing with journalism. It should be like
41:21
this.
41:22
Meredith Oke: I think that's what I was picking up on. Like
41:24
these. This just has a depth to it. These people,
41:28
these producers and these journalists have done
41:31
their homework. They really, really. It felt
41:33
connected to the material. They had researched
41:37
every piece of everything that they were
41:38
presenting to the audience. It was. And so now
41:41
you're telling me it was years of research.
41:44
Anders Bolling: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
41:45
Meredith Oke: Wow.
41:46
Anders Bolling: And Jake Barber has also requested to be
41:52
testifying before Congress as well. So he's
41:56
working on that. And he has this group of people
42:01
who. In an organization called Sky Watcher, I
42:07
think, or Sky Watchers.
42:08
Meredith Oke: Yeah.
42:09
Anders Bolling: And they are people like himself who have been
42:12
working in these covert operations concerning
42:15
these UAPs and the retrieval programs. And they
42:19
are. They say that they will try and they are
42:24
certain that they will succeed also to summon
42:29
these craft within that. Within that. Within the
42:32
confines of this organization, Sky Watcher, and
42:36
be able to retrieve them and to. Because that's
42:39
also. That's. You heard the interview. Part of
42:41
this actually has to do with consciousness. And
42:46
this is where. This is the part. As Ross Coltort
42:48
pointed out, this is probably the part that
42:50
people have the hardest time wrapping their heads
42:54
around because they're not used to talking about
42:56
consciousness, and especially not in combination
42:59
with practical things like technical things and
43:02
science and all that. But it all goes together.
43:04
Of course. Consciousness is part of it. And as
43:07
far as I understand, Jake Barber and his. These
43:10
teams that are working with these retrieval
43:13
programs, they have certain groups that are.
43:19
Psyops. No, not psyops. They're psionics. They
43:23
work with psionics. So it's.
43:25
Meredith Oke: Right.
43:26
Anders Bolling: Yeah. Parapsychologically, you know, they have
43:30
extra sensory.
43:30
Meredith Oke: They have like a team of psychics.
43:32
Anders Bolling: Like a team of psychics. Right. Yeah. Thank you.
43:35
I was trying to find the right words there.
43:36
Meredith Oke: No, but that's not what they call them. You're
43:39
right. They call them psionics. They had a
43:41
special military word. So that doesn't sound like
43:44
team of psychics, except that's what it is. Okay.
43:47
Anders Bolling: But they actually contracted these crafts by way
43:51
of consciousness in some way. So they, they,
43:53
that's why. Because you can, you can maybe think
43:58
that, well, if they're so advanced and they come
44:00
here from another star system and why would they,
44:02
I mean, why would they do something as stupid as,
44:05
you know, crash their. Why would they craft crash
44:08
on Earth Sounds really, you know, not very
44:11
advanced. But maybe that's not what's happening.
44:14
It's more like they are being summoned. So
44:18
anyway, if this group, Skywatcher or organization
44:21
or whatever it's called, I think it's a company
44:23
really, but it doesn't matter if they're able to
44:25
do that and then to present these parts of craft
44:31
or whatever they get hold of, that would be
44:35
really, really interesting. Pretty difficult for,
44:37
I guess, journalists to just dismiss. So we'll
44:42
see. I think this year is going to be
44:44
interesting. More things are going to be
44:46
revealed, I think in that, in that area.
44:49
Meredith Oke: Yeah, I think so too. I get my information from a
44:55
similar way you just described a little bit of
44:57
this, a little bit of that.
44:58
Anders Bolling: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
44:59
Meredith Oke: Okay. What are the. And that seems to be a common
45:06
thread is that these next couple of years are
45:11
just. There are going to be so many shifts in how
45:16
we see things. It's just going to be impossible
45:18
to maintain the status quo. And I feel, and I'm
45:24
curious what your experience has been. I feel
45:27
that a lot of us have been called to step into
45:32
these alternative spaces and start laying the
45:37
foundation so that when these shifts do happen,
45:41
there's some projects, some place to go for the
45:46
people. Yeah. Something in place for people for
45:50
all of us to grab onto. Like, do you feel that
45:53
sense or what's your experience been like.
45:55
Anders Bolling: Yeah, I feel the same way. May sound a bit
45:59
pretentious, but it's not. I don't think it's
46:01
that. It's just because in many ways it would
46:03
have been easier to just stay in the mainstream
46:05
and do what everybody else does. But I never
46:09
really felt at ease or I didn't feel comfortable
46:14
and I didn't understand what it was because I had
46:16
this fantastic job at this fantastic workplace,
46:19
this big newspaper. But something told me that
46:24
I'm not sure I'm supposed to be here. And then I.
46:30
It's a personal thing also because me and my ex
46:34
wife who's now still my best friend. We meet all
46:38
the time and we discuss these kinds of things
46:40
also a lot. So it was a very beautiful, loving
46:47
divorce that we decided to have there five years
46:52
ago. And so all this happened at once. We
46:56
separated and I quit my job. My father died and I
47:02
started this podcast. And so it all happened at
47:05
once. So there were a lot of things happening. So
47:07
there was some kind of a. Maybe it was a Saturn
47:10
return in my life, if you know about that, every
47:13
29 years. So I was 58 then. Was I 57 or
47:18
something? I don't know, something like that. 56
47:19
maybe. But somewhere around there, there was
47:24
something telling me that if I don't do this now,
47:27
then when. Because I got an inheritance. And a
47:30
little bit like that, when we sold our house, we
47:32
made some money on that. So I had some. Some
47:35
extra money and I thought, so if I'm going to
47:38
quit, I better do it now because this is the best
47:41
time. So I did it.
47:41
Meredith Oke: It's like, there's no more real world reasons.
47:45
It's like, oh, I need the paycheck, I need to pay
47:47
my mortgage. It's like, okay, Exactly.
47:51
Anders Bolling: And then, yes, during that period, I was very
47:56
grateful that there were people like yourself and
47:59
others on YouTube and on Alternative platforms
48:02
that could talk about deep stuff that I was
48:05
pondering at the time, that I didn't find anybody
48:09
talking about that on Swedish national radio or
48:12
in the newspaper. So I already. Back then, I
48:15
mean, it's not very long ago, but it's growing
48:20
even more so. I think you're right to your point
48:23
there, that people like you and me, I think we
48:26
have a role to play there. When it's going to
48:31
become even more confused and chaotic out there,
48:36
which I think it will in many ways. I don't think
48:39
we're going to have violent, more violence and
48:43
stuff like that. People are scared of that. I
48:46
don't know. Of course, I know as little as
48:48
anybody. But my sense is that it's going to be
48:52
kind of messy but not really dangerous, if you
48:55
see what I mean. So people are gonna perceive
48:58
things as dangerous, but they're not really. It's
49:02
just that things are handled in a different way
49:06
than they used to be handled. And old paradigms
49:10
are shattered and old ways of organizing science,
49:16
nations, economies, politics are changing and
49:22
people always get scared when this happens. I
49:25
just think it's from the place where I am now. I
49:28
just think it's very, very interesting, actually.
49:32
It's not going to be easy, but it's Going to be
49:34
very interesting.
49:35
Meredith Oke: I think it's true. We. What's that? I think it's
49:39
also a Chinese proverb, may you be born in
49:41
interesting times. But it's kind of. We're in it
49:46
because. Yeah, I think messy is a good word.
49:48
That's the sense I'm getting. And that's what
49:50
I'm. I'm starting to see. Like a maelstrom. Like,
49:55
there's just. It's. It's like the Zone is being
49:59
flooded with messages and information and this is
50:03
happening. No, that's happening. No, that's
50:04
wrong. No, this. Wrong. And it's becoming. Yeah,
50:08
it's. It's not clear. And that part of us that
50:11
wants. That wants it to be clear was this. Is
50:16
this disinformation or not? It's like, what. But
50:19
what you always say is, there's a golden thread
50:21
of truth in everything. It's like. Well, it's
50:23
kind of. Kind of misinformation, but there's
50:25
something true about it. Right? It's like.
50:27
Anders Bolling: Exactly.
50:28
Meredith Oke: That seems to be what we're coming up against
50:30
over and over. And navigating through that, for
50:34
those of us, like, oriented towards truth, is.
50:38
Yeah, it's. It's. It's exciting.
50:42
Anders Bolling: It's exciting. Yeah, it's exciting. And golden
50:46
thread of truth is. Is a very good thing here to
50:50
think about, because when you see that, if you
50:53
can. If you can see all. All the pieces of
50:55
information that you glean with a neutral, with
50:58
neutralize, you. You. You will discern, you will
51:01
be able to discern that there is, as I say, a
51:03
golden thread of truth in everything, even the
51:05
things that the mainstream might call
51:08
disinformation. But then you also realize that
51:11
what you have thought for 30 years was the
51:15
absolute truth was not either. Not the absolute
51:19
truth, but it had a golden truth, a golden,
51:22
golden thread of truth in it. But it wasn't the
51:25
whole truth. I mean, take history, for instance.
51:27
It's kind of obvious these days that, I mean,
51:29
more and more things are coming up about what's
51:31
happened in history and we haven't been told
51:36
everything. Of course, it's not strange, of
51:39
course. I mean, if you take wars, for instance,
51:42
that have been fought over the course of history,
51:45
the winner writes the history. So there's another
51:49
side to it, always and has always been. So it's
51:52
not. It's not. There's nothing strange in it.
51:56
Some people might get nervous and feel uneasy
52:01
when they realize that there is no such thing as
52:05
one absolute truth, because there isn't. But to
52:09
Me, it makes life much more interesting and much
52:13
larger. And it also has to do, of course, it ties
52:19
in with what kind of worldview or life view you
52:23
have. Because if you're a materialist and you
52:26
believe that we are only biological robots with
52:29
no purpose, we just have to do the best we can of
52:33
this physical life and then we die and it's all
52:35
black and there is nothing more, then you might
52:37
get nervous about it. But if you have a different
52:41
view and you realize that the essence of us, the
52:44
core, can't die, it never dies. It's, I mean,
52:49
consciousness is eternal. We're just part of,
52:52
we're all together, we're all part of the same
52:56
all encompassing consciousness. Then it's, it's
53:02
just, I mean, this may sound almost preposterous
53:07
to some people, but it's, it's all good. When you
53:09
see it that way, it actually is all good. I mean,
53:13
in essence then you can, of course, on the
53:15
surface, when you day to day life and decisions
53:19
that are being made and events, you can, of
53:21
course you can have opinions about them. That was
53:23
bad. That was good. That was bad. That was good.
53:25
That's how we operate, that's how we are human.
53:27
But I mean in general, the big scheme of things,
53:32
it's all good. That's the big secret of the
53:36
universe, is that everything's going to be fine.
53:40
Meredith Oke: Yes, yes. And we, and we get to participate, we
53:47
get to contribute to the type of consciousness
53:53
that we're living in, the type of reality that
53:55
we're living in. So your decision to leave
53:57
mainstream media and start your own is
54:02
contributing to a timeline where that, that
54:09
exists. And then everyone who chooses, whether
54:11
you do it in a public facing way or you just
54:14
choose to put your energy on different types of
54:17
things. Like we're building, we're building the
54:21
reality that we are then going to be experiencing.
54:25
Anders Bolling: Yeah.
54:27
Meredith Oke: Or are experiencing.
54:29
Anders Bolling: Yes, yes, I agree. I wonder what people,
54:35
colleagues, old colleagues of mine from the
54:37
newspaper are thinking about what I'm doing. Or
54:39
maybe they're not thinking about it at all. Maybe
54:41
I'm just, they have just forgot about me. That's,
54:43
that's fine. But because I think I still, I think
54:50
I'm a person who's pretty difficult to pinpoint
54:52
for, for people because I'm still writing, you
54:54
know, pieces that are kind of, you know, normal
54:59
about science and about the environment. And I
55:03
get the thumbs up for that from the old guard.
55:07
Meredith Oke: Oh, thank God he did something that we can talk
55:10
about.
55:11
Anders Bolling: All of a sudden I write an article about the UFOs
55:13
phenomenon or about consciousness. And then I can
55:15
imagine that some people go, whoa, he seems to
55:18
have lost it. What's happened?
55:20
Meredith Oke: He's gone off the deep end again. Yeah, it's so
55:25
interesting to me because. And I noticed this,
55:29
doing research on all of these different
55:32
scientists and physicists over the last few
55:34
years. Psychologists. And so many of them were
55:39
considered brilliant and they won all the prizes
55:43
and they were like, all the medals and they were
55:46
the towering figure in their field. And then so
55:52
many times in the bio I would read, it would be
55:54
like. And then in the last like 10, 15 years of
55:57
their life, they went on like, they got all weird
55:59
and they went down this weird woo woo track.
56:02
Nobody, they must have just got old and crazy.
56:05
And it's like bio after bio after bio has some
56:09
version of that. And I'm like, at what point do
56:11
we say maybe all of these towering figures of
56:14
intellect saw something once they, you know,
56:20
accrued all of their achievements and no longer,
56:22
you know, saw the end of their life coming and
56:24
were ready to accept a larger truth. But every
56:27
time, nope, they just went, they just got old and
56:30
crazy and they write off the bigger esoteric,
56:33
more difficult to explain conclusions.
56:36
Anders Bolling: Yeah, yeah, I know. I've also seen what you're
56:41
describing, especially on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is
56:44
terrible when it comes to describing the
56:47
scientists that are interested in esoteric
56:50
matters. It's the worst. You know that there is a
56:53
group called the guerrilla skeptics on Wikipedia,
56:59
gsow I think it's abbreviated and they are.
57:07
There's a guy in California, journalist I know a
57:10
little bit, Craig Wyler, he has taken it upon
57:14
himself to kind of expose this group because it's
57:17
an active group and you can look it up on, also
57:20
on Wikipedia actually, because they're proud of
57:23
what they're. And they are, you know, materialist
57:27
skeptics who are really, you know, in this
57:30
physicalist box. And they have, I think they're,
57:33
they actually, actually believe that they are
57:35
doing a very, very good thing for humanity. And
57:37
so they, they go into all these articles about
57:41
people like Rupert Sheldrake and Dean Radin and
57:45
Pim Van Lommel and they just change things
57:49
because they don't want, they want to depict
57:56
their research as pseudoscience. That's their
58:00
task. So it's terrible. It should be exposed.
58:04
Meredith Oke: So Wikipedia is intentionally framing any of
58:07
these more esoteric thinkers?
58:10
Anders Bolling: Yeah, well, yeah, right, but Wikipedia is not
58:14
this group. But the thing with Wikipedia is that
58:17
it's kind of user operated. So I mean they are
58:22
Kind of. They have become admins of it. And you
58:25
can become that. You can. You can apply for that
58:28
and. But I think the founder, Jimmy Wales, is
58:32
himself a materialist. I don't think he has
58:35
openly said that. I support this group and I like
58:38
what they're doing, but I think he silently
58:40
approves of what they're doing. That's. That's my
58:43
guess.
58:45
Meredith Oke: No, I think so, based on my experience with
58:48
Wikipedia and hearing stories of how political it
58:51
is to even be able to edit on there. I mean, I
58:57
know. I know people. There's a journalist called
58:59
Alex Berenson. He. He does a lot of. He covered a
59:02
lot during COVID and on the vaccines and
59:05
everything. And I saw him, he wrote one time,
59:08
he's like, I just gave up. My Wikipedia bio is
59:11
garbage, and there's nothing I can do about it. I
59:13
can't get in there. I can't change it, I can't
59:15
fix it. It's filled with lies. And so I guess
59:19
that goes back to what we were talking about
59:21
earlier, cultivating discernment, and especially
59:25
when there's these intentional forces muddying
59:29
the waters. Because what you were saying and what
59:32
your work covers is that there is a lot of quote
59:37
unquote hard science behind so many fascinating
59:41
things, you know, quantum biology, consciousness,
59:45
and all of it. But then there are forces that are
59:50
intentionally making it seem unfounded.
59:54
Anders Bolling: Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's. It makes you, of
59:59
course, then become suspicious towards other
1:00:01
topics as well, if you know that they're
1:00:04
manipulating or doctoring information when it
1:00:07
comes to science and spirituality stuff. Maybe
1:00:10
they have other groups doing the same thing on
1:00:13
other topics. Probably. Probably.
1:00:15
Meredith Oke: Right. Probably. And then this comes back to
1:00:19
something else I wanted to ask you more about,
1:00:21
because what happens then, and I see this very
1:00:24
often in the health sort of ecosystem. People
1:00:30
become kind of bitter. They feel that they're
1:00:35
being lied to. They feel that they're being
1:00:36
betrayed, and they are. And it's just sort of,
1:00:40
you know, forget everything sucks. Everyone's
1:00:44
terrible. These people are terrible. And it can
1:00:48
create a. Yeah. Like a bitter, unhappy kind of
1:00:54
way of life. And so I'm curious. Your book was
1:00:59
the.
1:01:00
Anders Bolling: The Cozy, Cozy Darkness of the Apocalypse.
1:01:03
Meredith Oke: The Cozy Darkness of the Apocalypse. Right.
1:01:05
Which. The point of that being that sometimes we,
1:01:08
like, we. We feel more comfortable saying, like,
1:01:12
oh, everything's terrible.
1:01:14
Anders Bolling: Yeah.
1:01:14
Meredith Oke: Is that.
1:01:15
Anders Bolling: Yeah.
1:01:15
Meredith Oke: What is. What was your premise there?
1:01:17
Anders Bolling: Kind of the background to the title there.
1:01:19
Meredith Oke: Okay.
1:01:20
Anders Bolling: Trying to describe how we kind of. What's the
1:01:25
word? Wallow in the Misery in a way because I
1:01:32
mean we can all relate to. And it's probably ages
1:01:36
old. You can, you can imagine people sitting
1:01:39
around a bonfire outside of the cave 20,000 years
1:01:43
ago and there's some person in the, in the, in
1:01:47
the group there telling horror stories about
1:01:51
saber toothed tigers that he met on his, you
1:01:54
know, hunts and things like that. And everybody
1:01:56
was, oh, tell me more, tell me more. So we love
1:02:00
that. And people love also thriller movies and
1:02:05
horror stories in novels and it's, it's very,
1:02:09
very difficult to write. I've heard of Swedish,
1:02:13
Swedish author talked about this once and said
1:02:16
that it's so sad that it's extremely difficult to
1:02:19
write a truly happy story because nobody really
1:02:24
wants it or nobody really is really interested in
1:02:26
it, which is, I don't know, there's something
1:02:31
about the human condition. But then people have
1:02:36
often also had these visions. They've talked
1:02:39
about the global village. And I remember when I
1:02:41
grew up, quite a few people who were kind of
1:02:45
visualizing a world in peace and a world where we
1:02:49
didn't have any borders. And I mean that's still
1:02:54
possible. We're not dead yet, we're here. So why
1:02:58
can't people have these visions? I don't really
1:03:00
understand that. It's strange to me. It's like I
1:03:04
can sometimes kind of wake up in my waking state
1:03:07
and be surprised that firstly I'm still here.
1:03:12
I've been here always. Because I mean that's this
1:03:16
sense that you have when you, when you're in this
1:03:19
life and you. I think it's kind of a, kind of an
1:03:23
evidence or indication that you are eternal.
1:03:26
Because there's this sense that I've always been
1:03:29
around, of course, anyway, that's one thing. And
1:03:31
the other thing is I kind of wake up and look
1:03:35
around and think what are we still doing this? We
1:03:38
have nations, we have even, we even have wars, we
1:03:42
have money, we have what's. What is this? I mean,
1:03:46
I've been having this, you know, since I was a
1:03:48
kid and back in the 70s idea that oh, it's soon
1:03:52
going to change dramatically and maybe I'm very
1:03:55
special. Then I might be strange because to me
1:03:59
it's been natural to think that way. That this
1:04:01
world is one day we won't have any borders, we
1:04:03
won't have any this or that, no races and not
1:04:07
even any money. Eventually we're just going to be
1:04:10
here and do things because that's why we're here,
1:04:12
to do things and experience things together,
1:04:15
invent things, you know, have feelings that's the
1:04:21
reason why we're here. We're not here to build
1:04:24
borders and governments and bureaucracies and
1:04:29
civil servants and, you know, install these kinds
1:04:32
of jobs that people have, meaningless jobs.
1:04:36
That's not why we're here. It's crazy. Can't you
1:04:40
think that, can't you feel the same way sometimes
1:04:42
that it's strange that we're still doing this?
1:04:46
Meredith Oke: Yes. Especially on the bureaucracy front because
1:04:50
it just seems to perpetuate itself and it's never
1:04:53
going to solve. Bureaucracy doesn't solve
1:04:55
problems. It doesn't.
1:04:57
Anders Bolling: No.
1:04:58
Meredith Oke: You know, it doesn't have any vision. It's just.
1:05:01
And it's self generated, it's functionary and it
1:05:03
just, it just exists to expand itself and take
1:05:08
over. And I. Yeah, but at the same time, I feel
1:05:12
like there's always where we are in our conscious
1:05:15
evolution. We, we need a little friction. I mean,
1:05:18
I have, I've been pushed to do some of my best
1:05:21
work when I've come up against really annoying
1:05:23
people.
1:05:24
Anders Bolling: Yeah.
1:05:26
Meredith Oke: And then I break through with an idea I wouldn't
1:05:28
have had without that person.
1:05:30
Anders Bolling: Yeah.
1:05:30
Meredith Oke: Or even the work we're doing now if we didn't
1:05:32
have that old way to push back on.
1:05:35
Anders Bolling: Yeah.
1:05:35
Meredith Oke: But. Yeah, then at what point does it. Do we not
1:05:38
need that anymore? We can just sort of exist.
1:05:41
Because I think, you know, we can wrap up on this
1:05:44
topic. I just, I think it's super interesting,
1:05:46
like what's happening in the United States right
1:05:48
now. So I'm Canadian, I live in the US So I have
1:05:51
this kind of front row seat. But I'm not, I'm not
1:05:55
involved. I can't vote. And I see just in the
1:06:03
area of health, there's a new Health and Human
1:06:08
Services Secretary in the United States who five
1:06:12
minutes ago was public enemy number one. Talk
1:06:16
about jumping from mainstream to alternative.
1:06:19
Anders Bolling: It's happened fast nowadays.
1:06:21
Meredith Oke: You never know what's going to happen. But now I
1:06:23
feel like, okay, we're in this place where we
1:06:26
were just so angry, pushing back on the
1:06:28
establishment. Like, oh, they're so terrible.
1:06:30
They're doing this stuff. They're doing that to
1:06:32
us. And now it's like, okay, now we have the. Now
1:06:34
we have the floor. It's like building or making
1:06:39
the change or supporting people and it's gonna be
1:06:42
messy. Cause that person is right about food, but
1:06:45
they don't know anything about this. And this
1:06:47
person's talking about vaccines, but they don't
1:06:49
know anything about light. And everyone's got
1:06:51
there becomes territorial and it gets really
1:06:54
messy. And it's like, okay, now we, now we are
1:06:58
out in the, you know, in the ring, so to speak.
1:07:02
We're not no longer on the sidelines. And what
1:07:05
are we going to do? How's it going to go? I don't
1:07:09
know.
1:07:09
Anders Bolling: Like I said, it's very interesting. It's
1:07:11
fascinating that it's happening. And I think
1:07:14
that, like, exactly as you're describing it,
1:07:17
these people that are now being placed in
1:07:20
different positions in this new administration,
1:07:22
they're being vetted and they're being checked
1:07:25
and they're being scrutinized much, much, much
1:07:28
more than they would normally be in normal,
1:07:32
quote, unquote, or ordinary administrations, be
1:07:35
it from the left side or the right side, doesn't
1:07:38
matter. It's been, I mean, it's been more or less
1:07:40
the same, regardless of party controlling it for
1:07:45
50 years or something like that. But now it is
1:07:47
something different. It is something completely
1:07:49
different. And people are freaking out because
1:07:52
they don't know what's happening. They don't
1:07:53
understand these people. They don't understand
1:07:55
how people like this can be placed in these
1:07:58
positions. So they're being vetted a lot. Maybe
1:08:00
it's a good thing that they are. But anyway, it's
1:08:03
really. And speaking of the secretary that you
1:08:07
were just referring to also in this country and
1:08:11
in Europe and I think all over Western Europe and
1:08:13
Americans should realize this, that what's
1:08:16
happening now in the United States is so, it's so
1:08:19
many people are watching this and it's polarized
1:08:21
here as well. Many people are freaking out and
1:08:24
thinking that this is the beginning of World War
1:08:27
Three or something. And they're just horrified.
1:08:30
And they are only reading the newspapers that are
1:08:35
depicting it in that way as well. So they don't,
1:08:40
you know, get to really understand what could be
1:08:45
said about it from the other side. But also a lot
1:08:49
of people are hoping, putting a lot of hopes
1:08:53
around this figure in HHS now. And because there
1:08:58
was also a lot of controversy around the
1:09:01
pandemic, the vaccines, the lockdowns, face masks
1:09:06
and all of those things here in Europe as well.
1:09:09
Sweden was one of the few countries that didn't
1:09:11
have lockdowns, which I was very grateful for.
1:09:14
Meredith Oke: That's right.
1:09:15
Anders Bolling: Yeah. That was a good thing. So we could, we
1:09:17
could.
1:09:17
Meredith Oke: Yeah, your poor guy who made that decision, he
1:09:20
was like getting hammered. He stuck to it, didn't
1:09:23
he?
1:09:24
Anders Bolling: Both. And I mean, but he was also very, he was
1:09:28
also very adamant that the vaccines were the best
1:09:33
thing that had happened since sliced bread. Since
1:09:35
sliced bread or something like that. So, I mean,
1:09:37
he was. It was. I think he kind of felt that he
1:09:41
had to be that and he had to say those things.
1:09:43
But when it came to lockdowns and face masks, he
1:09:46
just followed the science because it's common
1:09:48
sense. We can't close schools. Why would you
1:09:51
close schools when we have this infection that is
1:09:54
a thousand fold or 2000 fold more dangerous for
1:09:57
people over 70 than for kids? It. It's not
1:10:01
dangerous for kids. Might be dangerous for 70
1:10:03
years olds. And I mean, they should have the
1:10:05
vaccine perhaps, but. Or whatever, whatever you
1:10:08
should call it. The, the medical intervention,
1:10:11
the experimental medical intervention. So. Yeah,
1:10:15
but people are, as I said, also watching this
1:10:19
very closely, even in Europe. So what is
1:10:21
happening?
1:10:22
Meredith Oke: Yes. No, there is an energy ball unfolding in the
1:10:32
United States right now that is super fascinating
1:10:36
and I think will have ramifications around the
1:10:41
world and who knows what's going to happen or how
1:10:44
things are going to play out. But I do feel like
1:10:47
it's our time to step up. And you know, I. What I
1:10:52
hear you saying too is like, be flexible in. In
1:10:56
how we take in information. Be discerning. Trust
1:11:00
our. Trust our own intuition. Like, how does. How
1:11:03
did this land? How did this make me feel? Am I
1:11:07
feeling outraged or am I feeling like, oh, okay,
1:11:11
that's good to know. Like all these different
1:11:13
things.
1:11:14
Anders Bolling: Yeah.
1:11:14
Meredith Oke: So is there anything that you would like to share
1:11:17
before we wrap up? Anything that's coming to you?
1:11:21
Anders Bolling: No, just that emphasize what you just talked
1:11:25
about here, that trust your own judgment and your
1:11:29
discernment. And don't follow the news 24 7. You
1:11:33
can follow it a little bit if you want to know
1:11:34
what's happening, but not too much because it's
1:11:38
not good for your health. And also check things
1:11:43
for yourself if you have the time and think for
1:11:48
yourself and take some time off just to do
1:11:51
nothing once in a while. 10 minutes here, 10
1:11:54
minutes there, meditate or just do nothing. It
1:11:58
will be good for you and you will have better
1:12:00
discernment of what's going on out there in this
1:12:02
messy time.
1:12:05
Meredith Oke: All right, thank you. Very good advice. And I
1:12:10
encourage everybody to check out anders podcast
1:12:15
and YouTube channel. It's Mind the Shift on
1:12:19
YouTube and on all of the podcast, all the places
1:12:23
where podcasts are. And your website is anders,
1:12:29
anders bowling.com. okay, so that's. We'll put
1:12:34
that link in the show notes as well. It's A N D E
1:12:37
R S B O L L I N G dot com. Thank you so much for
1:12:43
being here. We'll have to do this again.
1:12:45
Anders Bolling: It was really fun, Meredith. It's been true Joy
1:12:49
speaking to you today.
1:12:50
Meredith Oke: Yeah.
1:12:51
Anders Bolling: Thank you for what you're doing also with your
1:12:54
podcast and the other work that you do.
1:12:57
Meredith Oke: Appreciate it.