Latest / The You Project / #1681 Don't Believe Everything You Think - Bobby Cappuccio

Transcript

#1681 Don't Believe Everything You Think - Bobby Cappuccio · The You Project

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: I'll get a team. It's Harps, it's Bobby.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: It's a week after the last episode that we did
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: at seven thirty two in the thriving metropolis of Melbourne.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: In down them the bottom end the bum end of Australia,
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: and Bobby's over there on the West coast in the States.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: In are you in San Diego?
• 0:17
  Speaker 3: Still?
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Is that where you're.
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: At San Diego?
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: What's going on in San Diego? What are you? You're
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: just heading out of winter? In is it?
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: What is it spring?
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: I should know the seasons where we're just flipped.
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: We're the opposite of you, so we are. We're heading
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: into winter. We're kind of an autumn right now.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm sorry here, No, you're coming out of summer.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: I'm a fucking idiot worker. And that's why we get you.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: That's why we get you, because you're the brilliant one.
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: Sought the seasons out. Yeah.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good thing. I'm not Jane Bunn. You
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: don't know who Jane Bunn is. She's very famous weather
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: forecaster here in Melbourne. How's your week been, mister Kabucco.
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: It's been good. It's been you know, bright and sunny,
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: a little bit overcast. I know you weren't actually asking
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: for the weather report when you pose that question, but yeah,
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: it's been all right. I'm doing a lot of rating
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: right now, and sometimes you forget the things that you
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: do that keeps you happy. You get away from it,
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: and I am spending several hours a day with my
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: head and a laptop, and I almost I feel guilty
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: because it's really hard work and it's a lot of research,
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: and you know, sometimes to like say something correctly, especially
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: with my brain, it takes longer than you feel that
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: it should. But at the end of the day, I
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: realize I'm happy.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: What is your I mean, I've spoken about this a
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: few times with a couple of academics, but over the
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: course of six years, so it doesn't hurt to ask you.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: So you're one of the best researchers I know, and
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: you also have this you climb to have a brain injury.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure about that, but.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: Her a bloke with it early in the episode.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: It's her bloke with a brain injury. Your brain is
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: pretty fucking amazing. What's your process? Like?
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Do you do you take.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Do you hear a term or a concept or you
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: hear somebody talk and something gets triggered and you open
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: the door and go, I'm going to do a little
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: bit of a deep dive in that, or how does
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: it work for you?
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: And also is your amazing recall?
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Is that just how your brain works or is that
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: just you know, just going back to the books or
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: going back to the research constantly and keeping updated.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: I just did a Q and A on this with
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: the organization that I work for, the North American part
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: of the organization, where they wanted to find people that
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: have challenges learning and basically say how do you navigate that?
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: So they were looking like, who is the absolutely most unfortunate,
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: screwed up person we have working here in North America.
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: So they invited me to join this panel. And it's
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: a matter of for me understanding that your brain just
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: works differently, and there's a lot of experimentation. Luckily I
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: found out how my brain works and how I learn
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: very early. It was by default rather than by design
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: for me. I always have to be looking for information.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: My intent is up like I am always with my
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: head in the book, my head in a paper, in
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: the literature, listening to podcasts like yours, and when I
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: find things I write them down, and I build on them,
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: I teach them. It is short of the amount of
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: time between I learned something and share something, the greater
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: chance that I'll retain it. I do not have a
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: very good memory, and that's a misconception because I do
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: hear that all the time. I love hearing that because
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: it means okay, I'm doing something right. But for me,
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: it's repid and not just repetition in the same modality.
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: I have to read it multiple times, I have to
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: say it multiple times, I have to hear it multiple times.
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: So I need to use a multi century learning approach
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: otherwise nothing sticks. Like I will look at people that
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: I know and be like, for the life of me,
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: I can't remember your name. I mean, I know who
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: you are right now. So this episode should go rather smoothly.
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: But that's been happening to me increasingly lately, and I
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: don't know if that's a cause for concern, but it's
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: pretty normal, which is why I'm not getting that disturbed
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: or that concerned. Early. My memory isn't great. I've just
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: learned how to saturate myself with things that interest me.
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: If that answers the question.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So when you listen to something like this,
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: like if you were a listener listening to you and
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: may talk about the things we're going to talk about today.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: Are you listening specifically to learn? Do you have the
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: mind of a student when you're listening or are you
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: just listening as a listener And if something comes up
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: you're like, ah, I'll just jump that down and I
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: might I look into that lighter.
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: I think the word is curiosity. I don't go onto
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: a podcast saying Okay, what can I learn? Although that's
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: a definite motivation. If you weren't interested in learning podcasts,
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: it's kind of an interesting venue for you. But I'm like,
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: what am I interested in? Because so a few years ago,
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: I was doing a preconference presentation over at what it
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: was FILEX and it was myself and a couple of
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: our friends. Ode was there, Michaell was there. PT was
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: speaking at this event, and a presenter got on the stage.
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: And when people say things that I vehemently disagree with,
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: I love those speakers because those are the things that stick.
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: And the person said, if you're reading, ninety nine percent
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: of your information should pertain directly to your craft, like
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: don't waste your time going out reading nonfiction, reading novels.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: I thought that is just the opposite, because, especially if
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: you're going to share information, you're sharing information with people
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: with diverse learning modalities, diverse interest backgrounds. I want to
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: take in as much information from as wide of a
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: span of resource as I can find out what interests
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: me and where are the connections, because now you have
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: such a multifaceted ex approach to explaining the same thing
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: in a diversified way to a diversified group of people.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: So when I go on and listen to a podcast,
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: what am I curious about? And when something captures my curiosity?
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: Very often I'll put the podcast on pulse. I don't
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: want to hear anymore because I'm gonna pull over to
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: the side of the road and I'm gonna jop that down.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: My best friend is on my iPhone. You know that
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: notes app that you have. Each one of those notes,
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: I'll have twenty page and it starts out with a quote,
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: starts out with a statement. I'll say, Okay, what's the
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: research to support this? What are some other ideas? If
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: I was going to put this in a presentation, how
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: I organize my ideas and why would that be relevant?
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: And then I'll pay attention. When I'm in a consulting
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: meeting somebody asks a question, Oh my god, that pertains
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: to what I learned the other day. So it starts
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: out with a few lines, I will literally have twenty
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: pages when I transfer that into a word document and
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: start dressing it up. Yeah, make life your lab.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: I love that. You know what I've been what I've
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: been doing lately is I listen to lots of podcasts
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: like you. But I've started listening to a few autobiographies,
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: which I don't normally do, and I think I recommended
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: to you.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: I definitely recommended to our listeners a book by Megan
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: Phelps Roper about the Westbrood Baptist Church. It's cool, unfollow
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: and it's fucking amazing. Like I had low expectations, so
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: I thought it'd be a bit interesting. It was fascinating.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: And then I just finished yesterday listening to Terry Crews.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: You know, Terry Crews is the guy that hosts America's
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: Got Talent x NFL.
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: Player Terry Crews.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm like, uh, like, someone's like, you should
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: listen to this. I think you'd like it.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: I'm like yeah, And.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: I had like four credits on audible.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, so and it wasn't like, oh fuck,
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: that was mind blowing, but it was just interesting to
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: hear somebody's story who is from such a different world
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: to the world that I grew up in. And even
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: though you know, it's not like, oh, here's a profound insight,
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: cray and go and jot that down and then go
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: and open the door on that and research, it was
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: just like I loved listening about someone else's childhood that
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: was nothing like mine, and someone else's school experience that
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: was nothing like mine, and someone else who had parents
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: who with nothing like mine, and just to try to
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: get in the head of another human. But even the
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: way that sometimes I love the way that people explain
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: a concept. It's not even the I'm interested in the concept.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: But you and I both know as teachers and as speakers,
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: sometimes someone will explain an idea or a construct in
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: a way that is better than the way I explain it,
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: and I go, okay, that's mine now, thank you. You know,
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: where somebody will talk about something and so just listening
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: to you know, there's the entertainment value and the wow
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: factor value. But then on top of that, just listening
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: to you know, like I was listening to him talking
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: about some of he he had a rough childhood, rough
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: and it just gives me gratitude for the rough childhood
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: that I didn't have.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: You know, you had a rough childhood.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that to for any you know,
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: reason other than it's just true. And when I've spoken
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: to you over the years that it's not one of
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: the reasons I love you, but it's one of the
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: reasons that i'm I'm I have compassion for you, and
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: I know you don't want that, but it's just when
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: I hear about your shitty childhood or Terry Kruz's shitty
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: childhood or the challenges, and I think, I'm just this
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: privileged kid who grew up in the country, really and
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: it's not like we were it was a Hollywood.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Existence or anything.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I think listening to other people just talk
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: about their journey and their story, even then if they're
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: not expressly making some kind of profound point, but there's
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: so much along the way that you can take on board.
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: See if you're so methodical that lands with me that
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: you're only looking for relevant information to what you think
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: is necessary in the moment, you miss a lot of things.
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: Like all sad goals are extremely important. I'm not just
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: talking about for success and achievement. I really think they're
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: important for fulfilled resilience and a level of happiness. To
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: be fair, but if you're so locked into your behavioral
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: routine and things that either aligned with your goals or don't,
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: you don't have that unbound play and exploration that one
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: allows you to test different scenarios, that allows you to
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: creatively imaginally project yourself into different situations. You don't have
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: all of that, and you kind of miss things. It's
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: like that person that goes to a seminar and they say, Okay,
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: I want you to write down fifty things that are
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: congruent with the person of your dreams, your ideal partner,
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: and they walk around their whole life and it's like,
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: if everyone you meet doesn't meet all fifty things on
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: that checklist, which probably nobody will. I mean, in the
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: seminar they said that you'll attract that same exact person,
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: but someone who is really suited to you could walk
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: through the front door and you will miss them because
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: they don't match your checklist. There's something in life if
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: I believe about exploration, and when you vic it's social
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: cognitive theory, like Abbat Bendura. When you vicariously experienced the
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: world through someone else's situation that you didn't go through,
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: you can kind of learn how you would approach similar situations.
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: And you know, people are very different, but people are
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: also kind of very much the same. So autobiographies and
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: other people's stories. I remember we took we took a trip.
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: We decided to take the car and we drove during
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: the holidays a couple of years ago, and we listened
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: to Will Smith, Trevanoah, Kevin Hart's autobiography All in One Journey,
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: and these are you know, you can say, well, these
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: people are kind of similar, right, because they're all they're
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: all some people who have gone through stuff early in
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: their life, especially when you take a look at Trevoroah
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: first and Foremost and then Will Smith and they turned
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: to calm, So all three of these people have turned
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: to comedy. But they're also very different in their backgrounds
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: and the way they looked at the world. And one
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: of the things that I learned about is one of
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: these individuals created a stick like this persona for himself
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: because he got a lot of laughs on stage, and
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: whilst he was getting a lot of laughs, nobody wanted
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: to book them because there was nothing in this person's
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: personality or persona that was real and authentic and people
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: couldn't relate to it. And then somebody said, hey, why
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: don't you just talk about yourself, Why don't you talk
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: about real stuff that you're dealing with, And he got
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: into observational comedy. And it's not that his career took off.
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: He landed in tons of challenges that most people wanted
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: to have been able to overcome. But eventually it was
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: that authenticity and vulnerability that created a relationship with the
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: audience that he wants to. Everybody can relate to that.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: So I don't care if you're work's an accounting it
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: was Kevin.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Hort, right. Yeah.
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: So it's interesting how there's so much carry over regardless
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: of where you're sitting in your life.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: Kevin Hart is a highly motivated individual by the way,
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: you know, like to your point of like, goals are good,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: goals are good to a point, and then you know
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: it's like sometimes I think like the to do list,
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: or the goal setting process, the structure of the accountability,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: all of that. All of those things are they serve
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: a purpose, but I think there is a point where
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: it can go from you know, motivation and focus and
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: inspiration to obsess obsession and anxiety, where now, if you're
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: not ticking thirty two boxes a day, you feel like
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: a dud.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: You're now you're disappointed.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: Now you're beating yourself up because you're not the high
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: performance seven days a week. And you I mean, there's that.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: And I've seen this a fair bit with self help
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: and personal development for want of better terms, where people
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: kind of go on the you know, the personal growth
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: journey and if they're not kicking goals on an hourly basis,
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: then they then they just morph into this other thing
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: that's worse than the thing they were before they started
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: the journey. And it's like, not everything needs to have
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: a point, Like maybe the point is fucking laughter, or
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: maybe it's you know, like you and I before we
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: start this talk, we talk and there's nothing profound going on.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: It's just two guys bullshitting each other.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: And it's fun and part of my relationship with you
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: and yours with me is that yes we're friends, but
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: like we love laughter and we love having fun and
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: making fun of each other and bullshitting, and you know
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: there's joy in that. Not everything is going to be
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: some profound insight or breakthrough or advancement of the self
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: in the middle of the you know, the life.
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of things in self help.
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: I mean my show is called the self help Antidote
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: for that reason. I think there's so much value and
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: insight that comes out of self help, and then there
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: is so much absolute toxic bullshit that is not substantiated
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: in the research. And a lot of times you get
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: to know these people on a personal level. They say,
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: don't ever meet your heroes, and they are so not
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: the person that is delivering that message. Life is not
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: a straight line. A lot of times you stumble upon
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: an insight because you were playing around and you were
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: taking a break. I always use the example of mend belief.
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: He couldn't complete the periodic table because he was trying
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: so hard to literally find the answers that would complete it.
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: But when he gave up up and I don't mean
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: gave up forever, Like there's something I learned from my
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: wife that I'm actually I'm teaching in a couple of
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: weeks on a municipal government level here with the county.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: But it's called quitting every day. He just said, all right,
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: I'm stuck, and he went to sleep. And when he
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: let go, it's not when he pushed harder, we let go.
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: The answer came to him in a dream and woke up,
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: completed the period on table and thank you very much
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: for that ball the way. But I watched my wife
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: do this where she would work eighteen hours a day
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: because she was a filmmaker, but as an entrepreneur, she
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: didn't have a lot of budget for editing and for
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: video audio, so she became all of that because she
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: was also an IT engineer in a past life. It
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: would be eighteen hours of brutally hard work. And it's like,
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: how do you do that six days a week, sometimes
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: seven days a week when you're make in a film.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: And how she would do it is at the end
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: of the day, in her mind, she'd be like this,
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: I quit, and she sit down, turn on Netflix, pour
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: herself a glass of wine, and then the next morning
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: she would hire herself again. And the reason why this
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: is important is because a lot of times I would
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: take days off and I'd be exhausted after a day
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: off because I would think about work. I would ruminate,
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: and I really wasn't taking a day off. I just
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: wasn't engaging. I might as well have been working because
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: I was worrying about work. Which she did was completely
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: disconnect fire herself. I'm done, wake up the next morning,
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: hire herself, and do that whole cycle again. And I
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: think that's really important if you're going to I don't
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: want to say work hard, play hard. That is so cheesy,
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: but if you are invested in sustainable growth and creativity,
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: you also have to be invested in sustainable rest rejuvenation,
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: but also play an absurdity, go out there and experiment
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: with shit. And sometimes experiment might not make sense because
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: of what you're working on. But I have written so
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: many articles, had so many insights from just noticing stupid
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: little things like watching a film where they're talking about
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: that mind the gap thing when you get off the tube.
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: And then one day I was on my way to
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: a date. I got off at Saint James's place and
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: I heard mine the gap and again I went to
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: the side of the road and started jotting things down
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: because wait a minute, that means something to me right now.
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: And then you know, I went off on my date
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: talked about it, and that created a seminar that got
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: me booked with a major organization. And it's just playing
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: around and being open to things, I believe.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, how good is that?
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: I told this story briefly the other day on a show,
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: but I'll tell you quickly.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: So I did a gig.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: I did two gigs this week for a radio station
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: here in Melbourne called a Lot of Him who do
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: a lot of good work with the community. And I
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: ran these two big events, mental health events, lots of
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: people and one of the knights, one of the knights,
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: I had the most gorgeous hecla. She wasn't really a hecla,
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: but she was in the front row, this little girl,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: and she had a disability, and she was sitting with
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: her mum and she was just yelling out the most random.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Shit, you know.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: And at first You're just like, all right, I'll just
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: duck and weave around this. It's all good, you know,
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: And then I just started engaging her and asked her
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: a name, and it was just like this moment where
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: you know, when you're in the moment, you're like, hmm, well,
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: I definitely hadn't planned for this, and this definitely isn't
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: part of my presentation, but you go. But nonetheless, and
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: I mean it was a big group. It was like
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: about six or seven hundred people. But nonetheless, you're like,
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: all right, well, where I thought I was going to
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: go and how I thought this was going to work
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: out and kind of the energy, and well, that's all
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: out the window now because this is happening in front
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: of me. And as it turns out, I went for
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: you know, it was fine, but then I just went
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: I'm just gonna We're just going to go for it.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: So I just started interacting with her as well as
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: the whole group, and she was a delight, an absolute delight.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: And the funny thing is, I actually think she made
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: the experience better and the moment that I stopped trying
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: to make it all polished and amazing and slick and professional,
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: and I just put my presentation on hold for a
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: minute and I just walked to the edge of the
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: stage and just riffed with Mel. All of a sudden,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: everyone loved Mel. It wasn't annoying not that she was annoying,
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: but it wasn't annoying, it was it was cute. You know,
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: there's that there's something that you can't plan for. And
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying I've always has done it, well I haven't,
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: but being able to go, well, fuck, this is just
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: where we're at right now. This wasn't my plan, and
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: right now my plan is out the window. But fuck it,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: here we are. And sometimes out of those here we
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: are moments comes something that like at the end, I
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: was thinking, I was driving home thinking that was better
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: than last night took because I did two the same.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: Gig essentially in two different places.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: And night one was quite good, but the second one,
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: which was full of mayhem, was better. And I had
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: a line of people for nearly an hour.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Just who wanted to, you know, say lo and talk
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: and ask a question.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: And yeah, it's funny those moments that are completely organic,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: out of your control. But sometimes it's almost like the
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: problem becomes the gift.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: I am going to use that story. I think that
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: is why I'm so indexed on play. Play is my
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: highest value. In the last episode, we talked about don't try,
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: and I think that's the epitome of don't try, because
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: if you've got up there and we're trying to make
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: an impact with the audience, trying to make your point,
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: that would have been quite disruptive. But if you're not trying,
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: you're allowing that session to unfold, well, then things like
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: that are an invitation and you could choose to accept
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: that invitation. A couple of weeks ago, my team of
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: coaches did a presentation for the company and they just
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: they just crushed it right, They hit it out of
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: the park. And because of that, they're invited now to
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: come present for the board, which is very unusual. As
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: you can imagine, a lot of departments don't get invited
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: to present for the board. But they did that well.
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: And when they first got up there, they were so nervous,
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: and you could tell I could tell. I don't know
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: if the room could tell. But it's not what happens
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: to you, it's what you do with it that determines
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: the impression that makes on other people in your audience.
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: And they leaned into it, they laughed about it, and yeah,
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: sometimes when you're up and you misspeak in front of
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: a room, you could see the presenter get flustered and
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: then everybody feels uncomfortable on their behalf and you just
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: lost them versus somebody that laughs about themselves. So you
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: tell a joke and it just doesn't land, does it?
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: And you call that out because it's hysterical that it
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: doesn't land. And they just played with it, and they
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: just embraced it and just flowed right into the presentation.
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: And I was not I was proud because they delivered
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: really well, because they prepared and they earned that. But
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: what I was more proud about is how they just
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: embraced the awkwardness and the discomfort of being scared shitless
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: in the first thirty seconds of that, And I thought, wow,
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: now that's impressive. There's something that's valuable.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I think this is going to sound weird, but
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: I feel like there's this whole thing going on in
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: the room despite me, Like that's got nothing to do
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: with me, And sometimes it's a really good thing. It's
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: got a bit to do with me, but a lot
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: of it not to do with me. And with things
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: like that, where something's happening with this young this young lady.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: I actually don't know how old she was is, but
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: I would say, you know, teenage sixteen to she could
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: even be twenty, I don't know, but anyway, Gordeous, but
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: it was like I needed to get out of the way,
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: like my plan and my ego and my insecurity needed
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: to get out of the way and just try to
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: because she was definitely for ten to twenty minutes, she
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: was the star. It was like I was just backup singer,
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: right and like allowing that to happen and to make
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: her have a good time as well, and to try
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: to bring that all together. But yeah, it was that
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: That's one of those things that you know when you
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: when you do anything which is somewhat organic, you know
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: you can you and I you know how much I
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: don't plan so but I have an idea and I
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: have it. I know what I want to talk about
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: on the night, but I don't have a presentation per se.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: But thank god I didn't have a slide presentation.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: That night, because that just that would have gone straight
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: out the window. But yeah, it gave me food for
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: thought as I drove home thinking about what was it
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: despite the mayhem that went on tonight, that was better,
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: That made it better.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Than last night? And I think it was just that that.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: Vulnerability and that realness and that authenticity and that just
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: that like exchange with another human in front of six
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: hundred or so humans just watching on. All right, So
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: last week we did this thing, and we're going to
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: do it again for around twenty minutes. Now, I'm going
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: to limit you to two or three minute response time. Now,
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: I know that's like, I know that's not easy for
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: you because your default setting is ten minutes rock bottom.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: But I've got to increase my blood pressure. Thanks, I've
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: got about house no what we see, where we go.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: I'd like to get through six to eight, but we
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: might get through two to three. So you do it
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: at your pace.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: All right. Now, Bobby doesn't know what I'm going to
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: talk about. He hand on heart.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: There's been no prep, no pride, discussion about any of this.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: These are just things that I've picked out of your
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: LinkedIn page or your LinkedIn platform over the last few months.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: All Right, tell us briefly about reflective listening. What is it,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: how do we do it? What's the value reflective listening?
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: In a two minute answer? Okay, so a lot of
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: times we think about listening, we think about not speaking.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: Otto Scharmer, who is an expert in organizational and Cultural
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: Development wrote a book Through You, and one of the
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: aspects of Through You are levels of listening. And most
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: people in our population function on downloading, which is, I
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: am listening for something that aligns with my worldview, my
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: cognitive biases, and I'm going to dismiss everything else. When
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: we are taught to listen, we go one level deeper,
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: which is a lot better than downloading, but it's still
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: not connective immersive listening. That's factual listening. I don't know
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: if you're very familiar with the old show Dragnet with
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: Detective Joe Friday.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: To you, yeah, I absolutely know that show, but I
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: don't think I watched it.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: I don't know that I've.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Seen it referred to in movies, but I don't think
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: i've ever seen the show.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: Right, there's a very cerebral detective Joe Friday, and his
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: line was just the facts, man, the fact. Yes, but
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: the facts don't give you context, and very often that's
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: misleading and communication. But you're kind of listening from the outside.
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: And then when you start to listen from within the conversation,
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: from inside that space between you and the other person,
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: you get into emotional listening. And that's where reflections really
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: come in. So if somebody says something to you, there's
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: layers of context and meaning to be discovered, not just
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: by you, but by the mirror you hold up to somebody.
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: They get to see something that's not quite apparent all
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: the time when they're just going through the narrative in
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: their heads. So an example of this is somebody could say, oh,
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: you know my kids, I'm gonna kill them. I'm gonna
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: absolutely kill them. I got If you're listening to just
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: the facts, you should call the police because this person's
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: playing on murdering their kid. It's if you're listening from
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: an emotional level, it's you've got so many things that
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: are on every day sometimes you don't know how you're
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: going to manage it. And when you got home yesterday,
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: just what you walked into was so overwhelming. When you
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: had so many things that you needed to do, but
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: just had there was nothing left. And when you do that,
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: somebody goes yeah. And it's interesting because a lot of
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: times people say coaching, what's about asking really great questions? Well,
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: if you would ask a question follow by a question
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: follow by a question, that's an interrogation. I mean, people
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: do that like after you've been arrested, or when you
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: like when you go to your prefect, your guidance, well
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: whatever you call it, like the head master. That's when
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: you get question after question Usually why when you're in trouble.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: When you reflect, someone learns insights about what they just
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: said that would not have been a parent had you
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: not reflected back. And a lot of times asking question
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: after question is not great because they're going through the
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: same narrative and story that keeps them stuck in the
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: first place. Even a simple reflection like say any sentence
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: to me. I'll give you an example of a very
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: simple reflection.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: Craig went to the supermarket.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: So you went to the supermarket, and it's like, that
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: is a super simple reflection. Yeah, I went to the
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: supermarket because you know, I was out of milk. So
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: you now start to continue the conversation and you start
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: to explore and expand on what you're saying to a
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: much greater degree than if I just simply asked you
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: another question. So there's levels of reflection. There's simple reflections.
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: Then there's a reflection where I'm reflecting back what the
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: emotional con tent was, like, what did that feel like?
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: What was the emotion that I mean, probably hunger is
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: probably prompted that, But in a coaching conversation, what was
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: the emotion that I noticed in there? Or if you
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: go a step deeper, what was the need you just need?
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: You need peace, you need some time for yourself? What
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: was the request you're making of the world. And the
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: deepest level of listening is when you're listening from the future.
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: There's a future that's emerging as a result of the
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: conversational dynamic, and you're able to be here and in
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: that emerging future at once because you know the request
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: that somebody is making, or you're reflecting the request that
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: you are observing, and that is what starts to build
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: bridges between where people are and where they want to
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: be in the conversation and in the context of what
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: the conversation's about. So reflective listening becomes very powerful when
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: you're able to to reflect back what you were observing
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: that in that space you're holding for the person you're
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: listening to.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: So my version of all of that is what are
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: they telling me that they're not saying?
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: Oh see, I could have just started with that and
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: just answered the question. Not very good at these.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: No, no, you're great at that, You're great at strengths.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, I think it's I love that, and
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: it actually makes complete sense that. Yeah, Like people are
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: always telling us something even when their lips aren't moving,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: so it's trying to understand that. I think I love
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: this next one. This is not yours, but you shared it.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Tim Gorway's formula from The Inner Game of Tennis that
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: a lot of people. I don't know if you can
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: remember it, i'll share it with you, but a lot
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: of people have spoken it. Like if there was a
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: hundred books, I would pick this one based on the
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: title last. But so many people have talked about how
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: profoundly insightful and powerful this book is, which I have
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: not read, so I can't endorse that, but I've had
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: a lot of people tell me about this book anyway.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: His formula is capital P equals lower case P minus I,
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: which I think is I didn't write it down. I
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: think it's performance equels potential minus interference.
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, let's talk about I love this. He's talking about
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: removing what gets in the way. Let's go back to
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: public speaking. Yeah, if you go to a public speaking course,
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: very often they'll tell you how to construct a speech,
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: how to deliver a speech, how to stand, had a gesture,
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: how to emote, And that's good, but then other courses
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: will identify who you are in moments when you communicate effectively,
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: impactfully and seamlessly, and it doesn't have to be in
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: front of an audience. Like we all have that friend
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: that when we go out with that friend, we're the
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: funniest version of ourselves because that friend holds a space
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: of openness, generosity, non judgment and they find us pretty funny.
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: We're always that funny. But how come we're more of
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: that version of ourselves with this person because we don't
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: have all of the internal interference of insecurity. Am I
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: doing this right? Is this a funny joke? Is this
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: going to land? Is this inappropriate? If I say this?
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: Am I going to make a connection in this meeting?
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: Or are they going to send me to HR? And
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: I'm going to have to explain myself, which I'm not
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: suggesting you say inappropriate things and meetings, But a lot
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: of the things that gets in the way of our
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: potential is a matter of interference. It's removing what is not,
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: which is why I love that story about the David.
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: I tell that story all the time. We're the unveiling
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: of the David at the Palazzo dela Sonora in Florence,
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: and Don Tello actually writes about this instant where Nichelangel
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: was asked how he was able to create something so
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: lifelike it was it was seems like it was created
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: from the hands of the divine and he explains, in paraphrase,
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: he didn't create the David. He saw the image of
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: the David trapped inside the marvel marble, and he removed
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: everything that was not the David. And that's a very
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: different perspective. And it's like, when you remove everything that
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: is not the masterpiece version of what sometimes shows up,
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: it is far more authentic, It is far more vulnerable,
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: It is far more relatable than trying to adapt a
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: set of practices that make you appear as this person.
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: So interference like like the inner game of tennis. It's
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: not like, okay, stand like this, serve like this. Okay,
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: you're gonna You're gonna rotate your hips in this manner
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: that's instructive. It's a matter of self awareness and what
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: you're focusing on, and by making subtle shifts and those variables,
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: removing the interference that gets in the way of who
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: you are when you're having the best game of your life.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: Because if you had the best game you've ever had once,
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: it was a fluke. If you've done that twice, it's
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: a pattern. What are the variables, Let's get rid of
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: what gets in the way.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: Love it tell me about weaponized positivity. What an interesting term,
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: weaponized positivity?
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: You know, I think that's when somebody utilizes a game
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: like here's Here's another great book, and it's a book
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: that I want to warn people to read with caution
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: because it's almost like those those illusioned images like the
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: old lady and the young girl. Yeah, look at it.
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: You see one verse. Once you see both images, you
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: can never see it. So once you read this, you're
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: not going to be able to unsee this. And this
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: is games people play by Talctor Eric Byrne, and he's
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: talking about transactional analysis, and one of the things that
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: he brings up is people are running a racket. It's
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: when I pretend to be doing one thing, but I'm
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: really doing something else that's not nice and it's not
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: socially acceptable, and there's a deeper motive and that's what
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: I'm disguising, and that's what I define as toxic positivity.
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: When somebody says, I'll give you an example of this
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: from my wife's film, there's a scene where this guy
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: just got broken up with by his girlfriend. He is devastated.
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: He actually asked her to marry him. He was so
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: self obsessed he didn't realize something had changed in the relationship.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: She was having an affair, planning on leaving him. He
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: accidentally bumps into a woman at the supermarket, I mean
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: bumps into her knox or stuff all over the floor.
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: They wind up in her apartment later and they're having
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: this conversation and she's talking about the loss of her husband.
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: Her husband died last year. And he says, but at
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: least you had eight years with someone who loved you
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: and didn't choose to be leave you like happened to me.
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: They were taken away from you. At least you can
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: look on the bright side of that is what he's saying,
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: and that is the She gets very angry because that
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: is the least empathetic thing you could possibly say to somebody.
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: It's filled with self reference and self obsession, a little
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: bit of narcissism. If we're honest, I understand the persons
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: in pain, but that's toxic positivity. At least look at this.
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: But also you could choose to rather than that would wow,
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: you lost your husband, you felt so alone because you
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: didn't know where he ended, and you began it's unjust infuriating.
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: Like again, that's an example of empathetic reflection in a
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: conversation rope. You don't have to interject your own autobiography.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: You don't have to interject a positive interpretation. Sit with it.
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and reflect back what you are observing and
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: what that person is feeling, and you will deepen that connection.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: M Yeah, that's that is.
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: That is why toxic positivity is so insidious to me.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: And also intertwined with, as you said, narcissism and sociopathy
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: and psychopathy and all theopathies. Hey, I remember you saying
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: this to me, and I know you didn't invent this expression,
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: but you were the first to say it to me
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: years ago, and I went, fuck, I love that, and
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: it is don't believe everything you think. And I thought
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: it's so true and it's so obvious, but.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: I'd never expressed that, and now I wheel it out
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: all the time.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: I do credit you, but don't believe everything you think.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: Just give us a few minutes on that.
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: There's multiple levels of reality, right, I mean the sun
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: rising in the morning. Well, whether or not you believe
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: it will, it's going to happen. So there's this absolute
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: reality that operates independent of your thought processes or beliefs.
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: If you never existed, that reality would still take place. Yes,
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: Another version of reality is perceptual reality. And that's very
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: real because it's real to you and a lot of times,
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: you know, we all interpret memories, and memory is very inaccurate.
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: Every time you recall a memory, you have to deconstruct
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: that synaptic pathway to a degree to recall that memory.
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: So recall by its new pal biological nature is inaccurate.
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: And how often you recall that memory and the state
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: of mind you're in, the emotion you're feeling, the intensity,
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: all of that influences the level of distortion of those memories.
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: But you use the interpretation of those past memories to
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: make predictions about the future. So you might feel that
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: you have no agency in a certain area of your life,
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: and it's based on an interpretation. It's real, it's painful,
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: but you might not be aware of the times where
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: you were in tough situations and you acted with resilience
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: and creativity and agency. And like someone who grows up,
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: let's say, in a very violent household, you know, you
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: might adapt certain beliefs that, Okay, the only way I'm
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: safe is when I'm invisible. If I can make myself scarce,
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: I could avoid being targeted. And for a child who
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: has no defense mechanism, once drunk dad, you can almost
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: hear the sound of the heavy footsteps when dad's drunk,
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: versus when he's sober and he's stomping all over the
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: house to find somebody to target because he's infuriated you.
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: Being invisible is a very good strategy. Yet when you
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: grow up and you go out into the world and
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: you need to socially integrate and you have a job
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: in sales, being invisible is not a very good strategy.
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: But you have these thought processes in mind about how
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: life is and how it occurs, and it's true in
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: that context, but it's not really true. And then I
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: don't know, maybe last night I didn't sleep very well.
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: Maybe you know, I ate shit all last week and
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: I disrupted my serotonin production. So I'm creating a version
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: of a narrative this week that's based on biology. It's
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: not rooted in reality. So you have to step back
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: and put a space between stimulus and response and ask
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: a little bit more questions of yourself, like is this true?
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: And if this is true, how do I know? Do
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: I have evidence to dispute it? Because not everything you
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: think is rooted in reality. A lot of times it's
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: rooted in emotional state and interpretation.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: Love it all, right, let's do two more.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: So when I started my PhD, I actually was not
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: doing metapception, metaaccuracy, theory of mind, all the stuff that
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: I ended up doing.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: I actually started three months.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: I did about three months on motivation, and it was
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: such a such a fucking mine field, and it was
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: so it was such a slippery construct, right, And so
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: my version now to I just want a couple of minutes,
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: a few minutes from you on motivation. So there's when
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: a lot of people talk about motivation, especially in the
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: getting in shape, you know, change your life, change your thinking, habits, behaviors.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: People say things like I've just lost motivation, or I
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: am motivated, I'm in the zone on pump. So there's
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: motivation the state, the emotional state or the mental state,
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: and then there's motivation. So that's one, you know, kind
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: of very casual definition is how you feel your level
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: of motivation. And then the other one is your reason
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: your driver, Like what is your motivation? What is your reason?
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: What is your driver? What is your why? I want
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: you just to give us your thoughts around motivation and
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: the role that it plays in helping us or empowering
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: us or limiting us to get where we want to go.
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: I am so glad you asked me this question. Sort
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: of it's a bit contentious for me because a lot
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: of people are really fond of saying motivation is not important,
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: it's this thing you need, and it's like, okay, when
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: you say motivation, what exactly are you talking about? Simply put,
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: motivation is whether it is a social influence, a physiological,
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: psychological influence. It's a reason for doing something or behaving
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: in some way. If you don't have a reason for
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: doing something or behaving in some way, you might not
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: want to do it really. And then there's intrinsic motivation
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: that comes out of self determination theory that deals with
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: autonomy and my freedom to choose and personal relevance. It
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: deals with relatedness and it deals with the development of
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: mastery competence, if you will. Intrinsic motivation has been proven
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: in the literature to be a strong determinant of sustainable
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: behavior change over time. When people say I'm not motivated,
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: they're confusing motivation with enthusiasm. Like we have those moments
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: where you know, when you were a kid and you
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: watched Rocky and it's like, I am so enthusiastic to
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: go out and work out, and then the next day,
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: you know, it's been twenty four hours since you've seen
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: the film, and it's like it's it's cold, and it's
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: early in the morning. It's like, I don't feel like
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: doing this. Well, if you're relying on this emotional precursor
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: or prompt all the time, you're probably not going to
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: have the consistency to bring about any of the results,
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: whether they're extrinsic or intrinsic. So going off of enthusiasm
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: is a really shit strategy for long term behavior change.
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: Motivation is very deep motivations around what is meaningful to me,
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: How does this align with my values? What do I
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: see for myself? In the future, and why does that matter?
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: Right, So you make a really valid point, and motivation,
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: inspiration and enthusiasm as some are typically used interchangeably as
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: meaning pretty much the same thing.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: But it's not.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: Right, not at all. I think one of the things
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: that would help in conversations is instead of arguing over
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: you said something and I don't one hundred percent agree
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: to it, So I'm going to launch into a monologue
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: on the internet maybe just Hey, you know, when you
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: say that, what do you mean, well, you need discipline?
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: Well that sounds reasonable when you talk about discipline, what
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: do you mean by that? And it's a fair question
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: because we use words so ubiquitously and interchangeably. Sometimes somebody
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: is using the same exact word, but it means something different,
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: or it's it's quite different than the context of what
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: they're using it, of how they're using it, and we
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: kind of get into these arguments without understanding what are
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: we really talking about here? Hm?
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: Love it all right now. I don't know if you
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: can tell this story in four or five minutes. This
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: is probably the hardest question just in terms of being
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: able to execute.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: The story of Perseville.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: I don't know even if you remember it, but I
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: saw it on your timeline. I'm like, I'm interested. The
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: story of Personval, a young knight's journey to overcome dogma
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: and embrace his true nature.
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: Pirst of All was the story of a boy that
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: became anate and he was tasked with a great purpose
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: and failed in it initially. And the reason why he
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: failed in it initially is because he rejected his own
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: innate nature. He rejected his own inauthenticity based on a
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: promise that was made to his mother out of context.
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: That's the short of the story. The longer of the
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: story is pirst of All was an old child. His
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: brother and his father were knights and they were all
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: killed in battle, and Perceval, being the youngest, was spared
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: that fate and he's living with mom. So what do
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: you think Mom's main intention around Perceval is at this
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: point having lost all of her sons and her beloved husband.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: And the answer, I would assume to keep him alive
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: and not send him into battle.
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So, whatever you do, you don't want to be
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: a knight, stay away from knights, that is not for you.
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: You're gonna work here, you know, work around the house
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: and make a modest living. Just for the love of heaven,
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: do not engage yourself in things a bottle. So one
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: day he's he's, you know, playing about, you know, a
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: little bit far from his house and he sees these
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: knights riding and he is just mesmerized and he ends
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: up joining them. They invite him on a quest. He
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: goes home to tell mom. Mom's not enthusiastic in the least,
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: but she sees that perst of all will not be persuaded.
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: There's something inside of him that needs to do it.
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: So she knows he's a very curious character, and he
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: always his curiosity inserts him in situations like kind of
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: like the one he's in right now. And she says,
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: whatever you do, don't ask so many questions, please, because
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: she figures, at least if he doesn't go around asking questions,
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: it'll help him stay out of trouble. And he goes
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: along with these knights and he finds himself in the
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: castle along these many journeys of the fisher King and
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: the fisher King. It's never really said what the wound is,
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: but he has a wound that is physical, but it's
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: also spiritual, and he's die like the fisher King is
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: severely inflicted emotionally, psychologically, and physically. He cannot sit, nor lie,
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: nor stand in any position and not be in excruciating pain.
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: And his lands have been laid to waste. Nothing grows,
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: his people are starving, they're struggling, and here comes this,
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: this innocent fool. You know, he's, this innocent fool. He's
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: in the court. But it's prophesied that this innocent fool
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: will arrive in court and with a question, my lord,
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: what ails you? The king and his lands will be healed.
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: And they're waiting for him to ask this question. And
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: he's so curious. He wants to know what ails this king,
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: but he can't bring himself to ask this question because
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: his mother had made him promise, please just don't go
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: around asking these questions. And so he leaves, and the
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: king suffering continues, and so does his people, and he
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: fails in this quest, and he goes on years and years,
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: and eventually he decides to go home and visit his mother.
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: And by that time he hears she has already passed,
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: and he has this revelation that because she has passed,
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: he has kept his promise to his mother. This whole time.
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: And he goes back to the castle of the Fisher
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: King and he says, my lord, what ails you? And
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: because he was true to his nature and he fulfilled
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: his task with courage, the fisher King and his lands
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: are healed. And that is the moral of the story,
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: is about living in authenticity to your nature. And there's
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: a lot of conversation around what is authenticity, and I
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: believe authenticity is when you are living your purpose. You
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: are living your highest values in any situation. Now that's
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: something that we do with great error and inconsistency, but
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: you are acting on intention, if not imperfectly, to live
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: your values in any situation you find yourself in.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: I love that story. I love that story.
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: It's a great story, isn't it.
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: I like this little format with you.
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: I feel like sometimes when you're teaching, I just I
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: forget I've got to I've got to ask a question
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: in a minute, and I just get it a little
• 54:16
  Speaker 4: bit enamored and a little bit like swept up in
• 54:20
  Speaker 4: the moment.
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: Hey mate.
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: So Bobby's podcast is called the Self Help Antidote. How
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: can people find you and connect with you?
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: Well, it's on the self Help Antidote I need to
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: check that email box a little bit more often so
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: you can send us messages there. People do, and eventually
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: I do read them and respond to everybody. So I'm
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: at the self help antidote dot com, I'm at Robert
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: Capuccio dot com. I'm on LinkedIn.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and if worse comes to worst is send me
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: an email and I'll get it to him.
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: Thanks Matte.
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: We say goodbye out there, but mate, appreciate you, love you.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: You're so good at what you do. And I know
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: it's Saturday afternoon over in San Diego when you probably
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: should be out doing something with your beautiful wife.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: So thanks for spending an hour.
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: That's what she said. Thank you, Craig, Thanks everybody. Bye
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: bye mate