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Back in Session · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: In therapy today, we had a lot to talk about, and this has unfolded that we are writing in the notebooks again. So when we walked into therapy and had a notebook to turn in and to actually process, not just avoid or put away, that was so huge. So huge. So carefully, gently, slowly, we're just letting it happen. No expectations.
• 1:33
  No pressure. Not trying to work hard or trying to work fast. Just letting ourselves be. This is where we are. I don't know how long this will last or what that means about what we're learning because when you're in the middle of learning, it's so hard to see what it is you're learning.
• 1:51
  But in every area of our life, we are in this place of just acceptance. It is somehow more than tolerance. It's not just that I'm tolerating my feelings. It's that I'm honoring them. Like I'm accepting them, I'm honoring them, and I'm responding to them in a way never before.
• 2:15
  And when I have thoughts, I express them or filter them intentionally rather than it just happening to me or invading me. And in my interactions, to be authentic, but also respectful of my own boundaries and the boundaries of those around me so that the passive influence of others or impulses that I feel because I'm being aware of myself and my feelings and my body, that these get to be expressed in ways that are safe and healthy, and it has just been an amazing experience. I don't mean that I'm perfect at all this. I mean that I'm new to tending to myself in this way, to being aware of myself in this way, to letting the notebooks happen in this way and processing them in therapy in this way, which is different than just handing it over or only letting the therapist read. But to actually talk about things and process things, this is brand new.
• 3:28
  Like everything is changing. That being said, the transition for this was actually perfect timing because as we've said, we have spent almost the last year going through the podcast with our therapist that we have now. Totally a Linda. Love her. She's amazing.
• 3:53
  So grateful to have her. And she has been beyond patient and tolerant and willing to work with us in the ways that we needed, which was first to get on the same page about what our experience actually was. So we had trauma therapy to process. We had all these podcast episodes. And so now for the first time, we have listened all the way through the podcast, the episodes of the podcast, talked about them in therapy.
• 4:28
  Some of them we listened, like, a handful between sessions and then processed in therapy. Others, like Iris, for example, we had to listen to in therapy together and then kind of process for several weeks or more. And some of them, the layers are so deep and raw that we keep circling back to it just like you do in therapy. Right? So finally, finally, we are really moving out of doing therapy for therapy, meaning therapy for trauma with previous Kellys to actually therapy for me, like real therapy, except my therapist reminds me that all of it counts.
• 5:15
  It's all real therapy. But you know what I mean. But what we had to process today, and by had to, I mean, have, like, possessive have, what I brought to therapy, what we had to talk about, not because I had to, but because it's what I brought to the session, were the episodes about the book in session. Now when I recorded these episodes, it was almost exactly a year ago, which is uncanny to me that these episodes were from a year ago, and now I'm processing them with a whole new therapist. It's amazing because it's like the first time I can really see progress.
• 5:58
  It's so hard to see your own progress when you're in the trenches. Right? But I'm seeing progress, and this is fantastic. But, also, there are three in session episodes. If you go back and look in 2021, there's three episodes, and they're about this book that someone had sent me.
• 6:16
  And at the time when I got the book, we had not started the community yet. I couldn't remember who this person is. But now this person is a friend, and I know it was Dee. And so I wanna give a shout out to Dee who has also since graduated their postdoc. So congratulations to Dee for your postdoc, and we also have Kate from the community that we're celebrating and honoring for their hard work.
• 6:41
  And these kinds of milestones really matter to those of us with family trauma drama. Right? So I just wanna give them a shout out. We're super proud of you. Well done.
• 6:51
  So stinking proud of you. And thanks to Dee specifically for the in session book. So over the last week, we've listened to all three episodes and then we brought notes in the notebook to talk about in our therapy session with our therapist. One of the first things that comes up in the first episode session is about the therapeutic relationship itself and how it isn't real. Now at the time I recorded this, this actually made a lot of sense to me because we were going through the experience of finding out that the therapeutic relationship we thought we had with our previous Kelly was not actually a real life relationship.
• 7:41
  It was like an illusion we made up in our own head. I thought there was this sacred space between us, and maybe that part was real, but she was not who I thought she was. And that came out because of boundary issues, that came out because of politics, that became out because of the pandemic. So it's all very, very tragic. I don't mean she's a bad person.
• 8:06
  I don't mean to talk badly about her. But my experience of the trauma of that nearly cost me my life. And I don't say that lightly. And so it is appropriate for me to process in therapy with my therapist about how difficult it was and some of the confusions and issues that led up to that because I don't want it to happen again. It's not just about what I realized '19 or the grief I experienced in 2020 or the impact it had on me all the way through 2021.
• 8:42
  These three years were so brutal, and it nearly just destroyed everything, my system, my access to my system, my access to hope. Like, all of these things, it was so devastating what happened, and I was unsafe because of it. So that's why it's really important because I don't want that to happen again. But because that unfolded for me in a way that was a betrayal and violations, to me, this made sense at the time when I read it in the book when the author was talking about how the therapeutic relationship isn't real. But now in talking with my therapist, she was like, no.
• 9:30
  No. No. No. I don't actually agree with this. And so she gave the example about how anyone in any job could just show up and do their job.
• 9:41
  So if they're just a warm body in the work place and on their phone and not making eye contact and not trying really hard and not actually putting forth any effort and only giving, like, 3% of themselves to their job, that's just showing up for your job. And that's not real in your job. Right? But if you really care about what you're doing and set up your life and your own self care and in the case of therapy, things like supervision or consultations, if you do the work that you need to be able to pour yourself into good care, that relationship is very real. And if you are coming to the relationship very present, that relationship is very real.
• 10:31
  And so we talked about how in therapy, the relationship with your therapist is very real even if it's confined to the four walls of their office or Zoom or whatever app you use for telehealth. Right? And that it's still very real even if you only work on your content rather than it being a mutual relationship, like a friendship where you both work on your content, like sharing and taking turns, all of that. So we'll talk about that in a minute. But she was very insistent of like, I do care about my clients and I do pour myself into my job and I do the care and the work that it requires to do that well and safely.
• 11:23
  And I agree with that. Not because she's telling me, but because we have tracked the marbles of what feels good, what feels safe, taking out the marbles when something isn't safe or when something feels like a rupture, putting one back when we feel like something's been repaired. Like, we see the evidence literally can hold it in our hands to help us know that we're okay to keep going because of this. Here is the evidence. Right?
• 11:52
  And so between that and good boundaries, she's been very clear about what she can offer, what she can't offer, what our relationship is, what our relationship is not, and very clear about when and how boundaries flexible and when they're not. And so all of these things have structured not our sessions, but our relationship to be very safe. And that's what makes it real. So when we function within a relationship, that is what we call transference. And that is when things in a relationship bring up patterns and wounds from the past from other relationships.
• 12:36
  And it doesn't have to just be with a therapist. It can also happen with a friend or in the workplace or in a romantic relationship. It can show up in all kinds of ways. When it shows up for the therapist in the relationship with their client, that is called countertransference. And so one thing that came up in the book that we talked about in that first episode, we had to write about in our notebook because it was such a big deal for us.
• 13:06
  And that's about how we realized we had given so many pieces of ourselves away trying to earn safety to maintain that therapeutic relationship with our previous Kelly and not understanding what we were doing, not understanding yet about fawning, which is being good to be safe. And when we were trying so hard in that relationship and with those friends at that time in our lives, it was like trying to earn redemption. It was like making that therapist God. And so when that fails, when there's a betrayal or a violation or a rupture that is not repaired or tended to, and you are left alone in that space, that is what our friend Laura Brown called the death of hope. When you cannot get redemption, that implies condemnation.
• 14:14
  Like, no wonder we wanted to die. When we realized that the redemption we thought was coming that would heal us, the safety that we thought we had because it was connected to that therapist, our orientation in time and space was connected to that therapist. And when we lost all of that, we fell apart because we could not do it on our own. It was associated with her. It was not associated with ourselves.
• 14:48
  And so that was something we learned from that, that we can't do that. That's not healthy. But what it felt like was that redemption was taken away and the condemnation is that we will not be loved. We will not be helped. We will not be cared for, we will not be responded to, and that is the death of hope.
• 15:12
  That that is collapse. Our therapist said that all of those efforts to try so hard was a cat cry. All of the reaching out, the giving away of pieces, the trying harder and trying harder and trying harder, all of that was a cat cry. And when they did not respond and when we realized and when we realized we were not chosen back, it was like footprints. Right?
• 15:44
  We thought that what they were talking about was being offered to us, but that's not what was happening. They were just doing the talking. They were not actually offering, and we did not understand that. And when we did realize it, it that's what was devastating. And so 2019 and then 2020 with the pandemic, there was no repair for that.
• 16:07
  We were completely isolated in it. And so attached cry shifted to collapse, which ultimately was like the Iris episode. Right? That is collapse. And so our therapist explaining this to us helps make so much sense of what we were going through and finally having words to express and explain what happened to us because it really was a very desperate situation.
• 16:36
  And in collapse, like neurologically, your body actually prepares for death. That's how serious this is. My therapist was like, people don't come back from collapse. It is very, very difficult to come back from collapse, which is why it has taken me a year of therapy for therapy. And by what I mean by that is therapy for the trauma we experienced with our previous Kelly and a year of physically tending to my body through movement, through sleep, through nutrition, to neurologically be able to even get my body restarted again.
• 17:22
  Because what happened was that traumatic. But understanding this and those steps that attach, cry, and collapse are every bit a trauma response just like flight, fight, or freeze, and that my brain was doing what my brain needed to do, that lifts the shame for me because this was not my fault. I was biologically, neurologically in crisis as a trauma response to what I was experiencing. And so what was happening to me and inside me makes sense, which is different than just drowning in shame. And this is part of why it's so important to understand transference and countertransference because just because stuff comes up, that's not a bad thing.
• 18:16
  That's a human thing. Relationships bring stuff up so that we can see them. It's why we need each other. It's why there can only be healing through connection. So it's not always bad, but you have to understand what it is so that you know which stuff is your stuff and which stuff is their stuff.
• 18:37
  So in the context of therapy, what's different is the content discussed is only your stuff. So the therapist doesn't bring their stuff into the room for processing with you the same as you would if you met your girlfriends or your BFFs for lunch. Right? The therapeutic session is focused on your own content. And so in some ways that can feel out of balance when you don't understand its purpose.
• 19:11
  It's actually very balanced because your therapist is pouring care into you so that you have the space to speak the unspeakable and so that you can express your deepest feelings. And so they really are giving us something very valuable and offering a great deal. And so even though what they are offering looks different than the content that we pour out, it's still entirely valid and very mutual. And this was really helpful to me because otherwise it can feel very one-sided. So this was super helpful to me because it is different in session.
• 19:54
  You can't take turns and there's not that mutual sharing of content. It's also hard because even if it feels safe and good, because it is this specific context for sharing, it also means that that relationship will end or change shape at some point. Right? And so this is a panic that I have that makes me very anxious quickly if I think about it too much that, like, I don't want to pour myself into therapy when I know it's going to end. Like I cannot go through that again.
• 20:34
  So I fight this with her. I don't mean I fight with her, but in anytime I start to feel a relationship connect or I start to feel connected to my therapist, then I fight against that because I don't want to feel that and it be taken away. Because last time I did that, I almost died. But what my therapist says is that it won't happen again like that. Now I don't just take her at her word because that's too big of a statement for me to just believe while I'm still raw from the pain that I carry from my previous therapist.
• 21:13
  But what she points out is the evidence in that. In 2019, when I realized therapy was not safe anymore, I did get myself out of it. It broke my heart. It was awful. And because of the pandemic, it got way messier than I ever intended.
• 21:35
  And because of the podcast, I talked about it more than I ever meant to, but I did get myself out of it. And so I did keep myself safe. And in a more neutral way, when I had that really good dream therapist and I loved her and I was connecting really well with her, but then she had the pregnancy complications, I was like, okay, This is a time where their content is coming into my session, not because she was doing anything inappropriate. We only talked about it for planning purposes because she was going to have to be off work. But I could not process in me that stuff of hers.
• 22:15
  And that's okay. She wasn't putting it on me, but also I could not take it on. So in my own right, I had to stay away from that. And it was not safe for me at the time because collapse, but I understand that now in a way I didn't then. I could not just wait until the other side.
• 22:36
  And the other side did not feel safe for me because I have my own medical trauma issues that I need to process a bit before I can even hold space in my head for my therapist having pregnancy complications. Even though she wasn't putting that on me at all. It was just for me an emotional mental boundary. I just couldn't, I couldn't. I didn't have the spoons for that, even though no one was intentionally doing anything wrong.
• 23:04
  And so when she left because of her pregnancy complications, I found a different therapist. And that was an ending that was not bad or because of any drama. It was only circumstantial. But even in that, I did a good job taking care of myself. So my therapist now says that the same thing will happen, that someday that therapeutic relationship will end with her, but it doesn't have to be bad.
• 23:35
  And even if I'm sad, it doesn't have to be harmful to her or to me. And that as far as we know, without circumstances changing, that won't happen until I'm ready for it to happen, which means when it does happen, it will be okay. That's a lot to talk myself through it, but I can in that way. That's different than what the incession book talks about where losing a therapist because of betrayal or violation or boundaries becomes a loss that is not acknowledged. And so there's this disenfranchised grief and rage that goes with it because you have literally lost the person who would tend to your loss.
• 24:32
  So it's not just that you are grieving, it's that you are alone in grieving. And that was absolutely true to my experience two years ago. I feel that. So I appreciate understanding how that comes, and I appreciate the care that I received over the last year. Like, we've talked about our previous therapist with our current therapist for almost a year.
• 24:58
  Like, that's a lot of tolerating talking about somebody else in a relationship. But there were so many big feelings and so many false conclusions and so many painful thoughts. Like, there was so much to sort through, and I'm so excited to see people writing in the notebook. And as embarrassed as I am about extra people popping up on the podcast, to see that bike episode and to hear the bits that I could listen to, hear John Mark processing his experience of things because his heart was so, so broken. Like, if all of that was the death of hope, I feel like this is the birth of hope for the first time in a long, long time.
• 25:51
  So then in the second episode about in session, it opens with this killer line. It is so, so true. I can't even with myself. It talks about how when you get a new therapist after a therapist's betrayal or violation, that you fight that transference with the new therapist, quote, like a relapse of the flu, end quote. I can't even.
• 26:29
  I can't even. That is so true. And so now I have this new therapist. And like I said, anytime I start to feel connected with her, I fight that because it was so painful to lose that. So as soon as I start feeling that now in like any of my relationships, there's this painful grief of, I can't engage this because I don't want it to be taken away from me.
• 27:04
  And I said in that episode, we cannot be detected because if we are detected this is when banishment happened. Right? This is when banishment happened. We cannot be detected because if we are detected, meaning internally, someone externally even noticing us, much less connecting with us, then our lives will be in danger. That's the impact from betrayal trauma, from relational trauma, especially in the therapeutic setting.
• 27:42
  And in processing all of these feelings in that episode a year ago, we said this, quote, I will go to therapy. I will show up. I will learn things. I will do the work I am supposed to do, but I am not pouring myself out into you. I'm not giving you any pieces, end quote.
• 28:07
  Oh my goodness. Here's what's funny is that it's true. That's exactly how I feel in therapy even now. I'm gonna show up to my appointment. I'm gonna work hard.
• 28:22
  I'm gonna learn things, but I'm not giving pieces away. Now, obviously, the hard part of that is that you kinda need to share pieces to be able to make progress in therapy. So even now, we are, like, literally in the place where we have two options. Number one, we're either gonna have to quit therapy because we can't bring ourselves into it, so it's not gonna do any good. Or two, I'm gonna have to jump off the cliff and dive in.
• 28:57
  Like, there's no more middle ground left. We have processed around all the edges of this for the last year, and now it's time. We have to go in and give ourselves to this if we want to heal. It's like my child running around with a splinter. I think we talked about this on the podcast before.
• 29:20
  It's like my child running around with a splinter, but not letting me pull it out. I have to go to therapy and get close enough to let her pull it out. But here's the thing. Here's what my therapist said. When I talked about not being able to give away pieces, She said that actually makes a lot of sense.
• 29:45
  She said in healthy relationships, you're not supposed to give pieces of yourself away. What? Now a year ago, I didn't know the word fawning, and I didn't understand what it meant. Okay? But for her to say this, like, I had to literally ask her to repeat it.
• 30:07
  And she said, you don't give pieces of yourself away, not even in a therapeutic relationship. Like, even if you're talking about friends or or romantic relationships, I'm talking about in therapy, you don't give pieces of yourself away. She said, anytime in a healthy relationship, there is a piece of you or a part of you that you want to share or express. That's what you're doing. You're sharing or expressing.
• 30:39
  Expressing. When you offer that, you are sharing. And in a healthy relationship, the other person, if they are receptive and ready to receive those pieces, they will meet you there and that is part of the sacred space of the mutual sharing and receiving. But she said, when you leave my office, those pieces that you have shared, you take with you. You get to keep them.
• 31:11
  They are yours. These pieces, these parts are mine. And I don't mean in a possessive way that I'm better than other parts, so all the parts belong to me. I don't mean that. I mean that all of who I am is me, and I get to keep that.
• 31:31
  I don't have to give away pieces of myself until there's nothing left of me to give. And people who love me also share pieces of themselves with me, but I don't take from them either. My therapist said relationships are not about taking, they are about sharing. And so, because they are sharing with me and I am sharing with them, I still get to have the skin that contains me. I still get to have the boundaries of what I'm comfortable with.
• 32:12
  I still get to choose my own pacing of how things unfold, but, also, I'm not emptied out because all of me gets to stay. And this reminded me about the word perfect. It's something I think about a lot because I feel like I make so many mistakes. And because of things like the podcast, any mistakes I make are so public. But being perfect is not about not making mistakes.
• 32:47
  We make mistakes because we're human. We make mistakes because we're learning. Mistakes mean that we are trying. Mistakes mean that we are still in process. Mistakes mean we are exactly where we're supposed to be, learning exactly what there is to learn.
• 33:11
  What the Greek word perfect means is whole and complete. And where I am in life is wanting to be able to have the capacity to remain whole and complete as I share pieces of myself in my relationships and also when I go back home so that I am still fully me, but have also offered authenticity. And so what this looks like, because I'm not perfect at it yet, but I am practicing in a new way with new awareness of the others. Because sometimes my avoidance of or phobia of or anxiety about others, our parts or alters, means that when I have those impulses, either because of passive influence from them or biologically biologically because I'm a mammal, because I'm a human, that when I have those influences or thoughts or feelings, that I either try to push them away or squash them down or ignore them like they didn't happen or filter them out of fear. And then what I'm offering are only pieces of authenticity.
• 34:51
  Now I'm not talking about breaking boundaries or crossing lines I don't need to be crossing or, like, my mouth, deaf culture is very blunt, so I have to learn some tact and be careful about how I say things. All of that is true. But if boundaries and healthy relationship dynamics are part of what I have capacity for, then that is part of the filter. But what I want to offer is whole and complete me. What does that look like when there are others involved either internally or externally?
• 35:30
  How do I offer what I see is needed or welcomed or unique to what I can offer? Like, are some things that I am not good at or not in my skill set that other someone else might be gifted at. That's where that sharing, the mutual sharing comes into play. Right? But there what is it that I have to offer that I can give that is only fully authentic when I just let it be?
• 36:07
  When I let go of trying to control and contain the others and just let it be so that something like co consciousness, for example, isn't just about us communicating inside or knowing the same things. Like, there's there's a depth to it that is more nuanced of how can I listen to them and them listen to me for us to be me offering to an external other or even to myself something that I have to give that I wouldn't even notice if I'm ignoring parts or dismissing parts or trying to squash them down? Does that make sense? Another way to look at it is like I want to own my presence in the world for better and for worse with all the humanity that is in me, for all the progress I still have yet to make, but also the progress I have already made and just be myself without playing other people's games or without fawning to be safe or without giving up or without running away or without pushing away or without shutting down? What does it look like when I stay and fight for me and those I care about.
• 38:11
  And so at the end of the in session episodes, one of the stories I tell is about the hunger games. Because it's such a random metaphor. It's also super violent, I know. So when I do watch Hunger Games, I watch most of it on fast forward, which would not take as long as you think. So I I have to just skip through those parts.
• 38:36
  But here's the story, the point. The point is when Katniss started seeing through the illusion and decided she was done playing the game, not just that she didn't like the game and not just that she was mad about the game and the injustice of the game, but when she was done and saw through the illusion, right, that's the metaphor of the dome, she shot that arrow to the sky and it shattered. It shattered the dome and everything started falling around her when that lightning hit. For me, that's what this moment in 2021 was. When I realized I couldn't go back to those friends.
• 39:32
  I couldn't go back to that therapist. When I realized they were not waiting for me. When I realized I was only fawning, even though I didn't have the word yet. When I realized that my attached cry had been met with silence. When I realized I was in collapse and I'm going to die if I keep waiting for them.
• 40:03
  When I realized that what I thought was friendship was only footprints. That's when this book for me was the arrow in the sky. And that's when for me, the illusion was broken. And even though I didn't have the words yet to label everything that happened, much less to understand it, That's when my pain was validated by me, myself, and that I knew it was me who could get out of this, that I had the power to do so. When I realized that therapist did not care and was not going to keep me safe, I think she wanted to care, but I was the one on the wayside.
• 41:07
  I was the one cast aside. I was the one left behind, and that is not care. And when I realized that, I also knew it was up to me to keep myself safe. And when I realized that they were not offering me friendship, what I realized was friendship is important to me and I was going to find it. And so now to be in therapy a year later and read these notes and listen to those episodes from a year ago and see how far we've come, that I do care about myself, that I can keep myself safe, that I have found my own friends who also care about me and keep me safe.
• 42:07
  And I care about them and want them to be safe. That's when I got my fight back. That's when I was ready. That's when it was time. And the timing is perfect actually, because what we have left of the podcast to go through together next week are the two dreams, foster therapy and the chicken rescue, which was not a dream, but we did process with our dream therapist like a dream.
• 42:40
  And after that, the episode when our therapist died of COVID. And that's everything. Our therapist is caught up to when we met her, We will have processed the entire podcast and all of the episodes I have now listened to and processed with her, except for the four episodes about the English teacher, which we have intentionally put off along with the roomies and hallelujah episode about what happened in college because those six episodes, even though they recorded two years apart, go together. And so that's my transition plan. As we move from therapy for trauma that happened with our previous Kelly, to slowly, carefully getting back into therapy from memory time.
• 43:45
  And so this is big and it's heavy and it's scary, but also because I have my fight back, because I'm ready, because my fight is against what has been done to me, not against relationships. And my fight includes letting go, softening, being still, reflecting, and even journaling again in the notebooks. Those six episodes that will be the last ones we listen to together with our therapist, because everything else has happened in real time with her. Those six episodes are not just about college. They're also about memory times before that and memory times since, including our previous therapist whom we've known since we were young adult, which I think is part of why the wound was so deep.
• 44:59
  So am I excited to transition back into actual therapy for memory time things? No. Can't say that I am. But also, am I ready? Yeah.
• 45:15
  And am I choosing it? Yeah. So what is collapsing? My giving up. I'm done giving up.
• 45:26
  Giving up has collapsed. What is attached cry? It's being alone when I need connection. An attached cry is done because I have lots of good, healthy connection. And so it's time to just relax into connection and see what that means.
• 45:52
  And freeze. Freeze is done because walls are coming down and because it's time to start responding to them the same way someone should have responded to me. And flight. Flight is done because I'm not running away this time. I'm staying.
• 46:20
  I'm staying to care. I'm staying present. I'm staying here with myself. All of me, whole and complete. And fight?
• 46:38
  I'm fighting for me, myself, my own healing, my healthy relationships, my life as I choose to create it, my relationships as they unfold.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing.