Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / Neeraj Sagar on Why 50 is the Half Time of Your Professional Career (#061)

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Neeraj Sagar on Why 50 is the Half Time of Your Professional Career (#061) · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: The paradox of India is we have one of the lower median ages in the world with the second largest population in quantity over the age of 60.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: We have 150 million people today who are over the age of 60 in India.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: By 2050, this will become 300 million people.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, these people are not dying.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: The healthcare systems are making them live.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: So then this whole so that's the now.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: What do we do?
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: We essentially, our initial purpose was that we are going to bring both the sides together, organizations and people.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: What we have realized in the three years of doing this is that there are way many more people who want to work, meaningful contribution, than there are organizations that want to leverage them.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we started with the idea okay, we're going to do three things.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to help organizations leverage this talent pool.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: The second one was I said, look, how can I create a million teachers post-career professionals?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Third is social impact organizations leveraging this segment.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we you know it's free for people to come sign up on our platform.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: We call this group the wisdom generation.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: We say, look, it doesn't matter what age you are when you sign up.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: Hello everyone.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to another edition of Contraminds.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: In this episode, I'm talking to somebody who is redefining workforce thinking and hiring frameworks.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: He is somebody who believes there is a new emerging workforce post-career professionals.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Post career professionals are people who are over there.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: He believes they bring a huge amount of experience.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: You need to be the four into your retirement.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: You will need to be independent free agent.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: And you will be giving your organizations.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: Your expertise will be free.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you'll be able to really work and deliver for these organizations in their strategies, in their operations, and in their planning for the future.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: Neer shared with me his experience of building the organization, and he list it with a lot of examples and anecdotes, which I thought was interesting and extremely valuable.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: Let's dive in into my conversation with Neerj.
• 4:29
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• 4:33
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• 4:41
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• 4:51
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• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: Which is a very interesting piece of work that you do and that's also very closely related to the company that you run.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to really understand what does Stanford Center of Longevity work on and how is it relevant to today's work and career?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, again it's I can well I think you're asking questions which are making me think something.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: So let me so let me start by why I joined Stanford Center on Legity.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: And and then I think I you know I would also realize that I'm not a very I have more simple answers to complicated questions.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe I'm not sure that what your audience will like, but my simple answer is I joined Stanford on Nagetic because I could.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: So someone recommended my name, they said you guys are doing some of this cool work for the last 13 years.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Neiraj is uh someone that you should consider as an ambassador because he is an ambassador already, it'll be nine plus he's from Stanford, so that would be good.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And um so the reason a bunch of so we have a second cohort of ambassadors for Stanford Centre of Longevity.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: The first cohort uh was Stanford's way of saying, Look, we've been doing some cool work, but we have no way of getting feedback back in because, in a way, everything we are doing is us telling everybody what it should be, but at the end, the reality is it has to be implemented.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: The reality is that it has to have real-world impact, not just theoretical stuff that we talk about, um, and so they now then came up with the second cohort, and the second cohort came by asking the first cohort who would you like to recommend who's working in this space.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how I think 15 of us got picked, um, and we sort of showed up.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the first time we all met was we did some online stuff, but they have something called the century summit every year, uh, which means, and again, it's linked to a hundred-year life, so that's why it's called Century Summit.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, you've talked about the new map of life, which is what they've come up with, which is the basis of what we do.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: But that's how we got in now.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: After we all got in, we realized now we've got to do something also, and but you know the the cool thing about Stanford is they allow you to explore, find out, and and do things together.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, what has happened is uh, and then I'll answer your question specifically on on work and life and all of that.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: But what has happened is we've all got together, we've created small teams on different aspects, and now we are working on those aspects to bring it to the real world as an example.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, I am a part of what they call the workforce team.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are seven or eight of us, and I think eight of us on this team, we are all in different parts of the world.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we bring our perspectives of what we are learning.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: We take what we can from what we've heard from Stanford and say, Okay, now what does this mean?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and honestly, the Stanford um umbrella allows us more access, um, which allows us to come together and do things and then go back to organizations to say, Look, this is what you should be doing, and this is how if you do this, this fits in better with the new map of life.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, and so, for example, I'm a part of two work streams, one one tiger team is this workforce tiger team, and for some reason I've gotten pulled into the media tiger teams, right?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we call it, where we are exploring how do we leverage uh uh media personalities to enhance or strengthen narratives for longevity.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: Why longevity?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's a I think that's the the theme, right?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: The Stanford Center on Longevity.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I I think you asked a much more pertinent question, so which in a way links to why I started Wisdom Circle.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm actually now because you asked this question on longevity, I'm now going to take a step back and then answer those questions around how I see work, and you know one of the things that I realized about four years ago, four or five years ago, was everyone I spoke to was talking about longevity, right?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: And in this or so, whenever you talk about aging, people are talking about how to live longer.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of investment going on in science, there's a lot of investment going on in multiple areas on how do we make humans live longer.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Not enough work was being done on what you will do if you live longer, and while you're doing that in the middle comes AI.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Now, AI is saying you don't even whatever you are doing, even that you don't need to do.
• 10:45
  unknown: Right?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: So now we have a double-edged sword, and literally people are saying universal basic income.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what will people do?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: How do you restructure humanity?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: At one level, Stanford is working on how do you get younger people ready to live, like what they're basically saying is any kid that is being born today has a very high likelihood of touching a hundred, right?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Without much changes to uh, I mean, except you know, health and diet and you know how you sort of take care of yourself, etc.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: But it's a very real problem that is gonna face humanity.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we are giving better health care, there's better medicines, there's better knowledge, uh AI is gonna tell us what to do.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're all gonna live longer.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: But then we'll be like, so let me define what that future looks like.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: We will be depressed, um agers who um the only thing we will be able to do is look at other ages and tell them what you know it's I'm just saying I can't even imagine, it's gonna be crap.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you want to die, but nobody is letting you die.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you still have to live.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now the question is, yeah, what you know, how much television, how much what?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, and then you start working backwards.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Which now answers now.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Let's answer your question about the role of, and I think how did you define it?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Work, learn, and earn.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, where do you want to start?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: So let's start with work because the way organization uh look at uh workforce today, uh given longevity, there's going to be fundamental changes that they even need to rethink about employees and employability, right?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, can you talk about that?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so um you know so at the let me start with the extreme end.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: So you heard of DAOs, BAOs and all that, right?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Distributed autonomous organizations.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you have that level of uh disparate way of working or several versus the traditional corporate way that exists today.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: My view is the current big organizations are going to struggle with readjusting because to change them is more difficult than starting a new company and having the new company do something differently.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually think this is again my view, that we'll have as time goes, we'll have newer companies and newer models come up, then existing companies and existing models changing to adapt to this new way of working.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and the example is like you know, when I go talk to people, and it's a simple example.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: When I talk to organizations to say, look, um, can you create roles for experts who want to work part-time?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: The current HR systems are so ingrained where to move one piece, you have to move ten other pieces.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you know, our orc chart doesn't have this.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: If someone comes, who will they report to?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: How will we pay them?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: How will we hand over if they only work two days and the other three days someone else works?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I think you know, it's like how India bypassed um you know landlines in a whole way to actually get to digital because you know, the yes, we had landlines, yes, we had the weights, but you know, at the end we still progressed much more on telecom than the uh than the US did, for example.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: So my view is um there will be a significant shift in newer age companies adapting to this new way of work as opposed to current big companies changing it.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, and I can see that in my own startup, the way we work is very different from how how I work in the traditional companies.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have any set time of coming in or leaving.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot more flexibility on on leave and when people come, when they work, what they do.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think we have um we have rituals.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, a Friday lunch ritual.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody shows up.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually think you know organizations will become ritual-based to bring people together, but at the same time adapting to what individuals need and how they want to work.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: So the role of HR shifts, the role of expertise shifts, the role of management shifts.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Then you are now, and and by the good part is during COVID, we've actually seen a lot of this happen already.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: So the the base has been set of what is possible that you can get productive organizations without actually having people there.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, you know, there are these questions around culture and this and that, and um, so again, the change will be and and now all we approach it from an organization.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Organizations are coming to us saying, look, we want 10% of our workforce as flexible workforce.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: I I have had this is a signal, this is a 40 billion dollar company that we are working with, which has told us in measuring terms, saying 10% of our staff, senior staff, should be on flexible payroll, which means they can work when they want, plus we can fire them when we want.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: So this whole notion of, you know, and again, so that is going to change.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the other thing which we are already seeing, right, the ability of older people to continue working has increased and will continue to increase.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are many more people who are older or post-retirement who want to continue working, then there are roles for those people today.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there is also that shift of desire to continue working.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now, whether the desire is for continuing to make money, and I have a view there as well, I actually think the desire is to stay relevant and be respected.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: And to stay relevant, which then you know talks about learn and we'll talk about that, but there will be pockets.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, right now, even in my friends, I still people talking about, you know, I wish I had taken you know 10 years off when my kids were between 8 and 18.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's the time I want to spend with them.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because after 18 they'll go their way, I can then come back.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I think building in flexibility into work, women anyway do it, or or rather sometimes are forced to do it by themselves andor by the nature of society and how it's structured.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: But now I think it'll become a lot more prevalent, however, it's not in the horizon.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we see it's we know it will happen, but it's not happening.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I just want to pull back for a minute and talk about your startup wisdom circle, which I found very interesting.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so talk to me about wisdom circle and what you do at Wisdom Circle, and then we will plug in what you're talking about.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to plug in the Stanford Center of Longevity along with the changing workplace that you spoke about.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: So uh talk about Wisdom Circle first, and then I'll probably plug in some of the points and we will connect those points as we as we gather our thoughts.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let me tell you the genesis of wisdom circle.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: The genesis of wisdom circle was uh I stopped colouring my hair, suddenly all my hair was white, and suddenly I realized that people started looking at me different.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I was in my early 40s then, right?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm 54 right now.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's when I realized there's something going on here.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was getting a lot more respect.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now, there is in the Western world, there is ageism.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it was working the other way.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm getting my driver's license renewed in 15 minutes, I'm always getting a seat on the indigo bus.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: I take the metro, someone older than me stands up for me and says, Sir, please sit.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking, and you know, and even client, like I think the client facing work, I would go to meet very senior people.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Earlier, I would be made to wait outside with the reception available.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now I was ushered into the boardroom, given better cutlery to drink tea, and I was thinking, man, this is something wrong, right?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Suddenly the white hair is is um uh but then at the same time, people are like, Oh, he's done.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I there were people older than me in my own company asking me how many more years I had to retirement, and I had 20 years for retirement left.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: I was 42, and retirement was at 62.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: They're asking me when are you retiring?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, you know, again, so that is the other side of it.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, so then that is what got me started uh on studying the subject.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: So during COVID, I read a lot about longevity and aging.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: I probably have about 60-70 books on the subject.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how the journey started.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Me trying to understand you know what is what is going on, which I don't understand.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because most of us understand is as we get older.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: In my view, I started understanding it when I was being I treated and those, but I don't didn't think I was old.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so so again took a lot of courses, learned.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um then what happened was because now I started looking a little more wiser, a lot of senior people started approaching me to say, Neeraj, can you advise us what we should do if we retire?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when I realized that the problem was much, much bigger.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in the years that I was there were probably hundreds of people I've spoken to who would say, Neeraj, you're retiring, don't know what to do.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I would ask them, I do have enough money, what do you want to do?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And most people were lost, right?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because life was, you know, life the way it was, pre-retirement was purpose enough for them.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, bring up the kids, buy a house, uh, you know, become a CEO or become a CXO or become an expert.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: And suddenly, you know, India still had 58, and that had become 60, and there's some companies still have 58 to say, okay, you're done.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that got me thinking again to say the world we are all solving for younger people, but this this massive demographic issue that is literally in this case on the horizon, that we are closing our eyes to to say it's not my problem.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: When it is my problem, I will look.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the genesis of wisdom circle.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then when we started, we realized this is not an India problem, it was a global problem.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: The manifestation of it is very different.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: How it manifests in South Korea is different from how it manifests in Singapore, in the US, in Europe, in the UK, uh, in Africa, you know, in the Middle East, because everybody, so there's in some cases.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: We have younger population, older population, but India itself.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: The issue, the paradox of India, is we have one of the lower median ages in the world with the second largest population in quantity over the age of 60.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: We have 150 million people, Swami, today who are over the age of 60 in India.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: By 2050, this will become 300 million people.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now, even if you take a sliver of that to say, oh, I'm only going to look at white collar, I'm only going to look at uh you know people who are doing the, you know, are working for someone, and I look at uh Provident Fund data and I come up with even that is so big.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, these people are not dying, right?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: The healthcare systems are making them live.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: So then this whole, so that's the now.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: What do we do?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: We essentially, our initial purpose was that we are going to bring both the sides together, organizations and people.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: What we have realized in the three years of doing this, that there are way many more people who want to work, meaningful contribution, than there are organizations that want to leverage them.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in a country like India, we worry about, oh, will they take away younger people's jobs?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, so therefore, why should we, you know, the old people have lived their life, let them be this focus on younger people.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: What they don't realize is there is so much wisdom, knowledge, experience, skills sitting with this group that is getting sidelined that can be used for the betterment of economies, countries, intergenerational upliftment.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: So we started with the idea, okay, we're going to do three things.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to help organizations leverage this talent pool.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: The second one was I said, look, how can I create a million teachers out of retirees?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, the other word we've sort of now built in many countries, they don't like the word retiree, so we've come up with post-career professionals.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Don't ask me what it means, but I think it means something similar.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, but we're trying.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: I I still say, you know, because the word retirement means stop, but we're saying you have to continue working.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not anyway, you you get it right.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, perfect.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: So we and so the second is this, third is social impact organizations leveraging this segment.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we you know it's free for people to come sign up on our platform.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we call this group the wisdom generation.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: We say, look, it doesn't matter what age you are when you sign up, so we don't restrict anybody because I we we say, look, you're gonna get everyone's gonna get old.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: Come sign now or come sign later, you can see.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: But we prefer people to be over 50 or at least in that second half of their uh biological uh age limit if you look at a 0 to 100, um, and we help organizations tap into this this pool for short duration and part-time opportunities, so that's what we do.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: And in your platform today, how many people have registered themselves?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: So as of this morning, we have 101,000 people, my goodness.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's it's just not stopping, and we don't market ourselves too much.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm saying.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's a huge gap, and we've only been able to list like 2500 odd roles, you know.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: So there is a one is to 40 gap, right?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, for every 40 people who want to work, there's only one opportunity.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's on us as well, but you know.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: Very brilliant.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, clearly uh there is this post-career professional looking for opportunities, and therefore, that's one uh important trend that you are seeing.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: At the other end, uh you're talking about organizations wanting flexible workforce, and therefore, uh at least the fact that they should change the way they uh hire, uh there needs there needs to be a new way of thinking where what percentage is flexible.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: So, can you talk about that and how do you really uh you know connect and plug in this need?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I it's so again a very insightful question.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Swami, there is this is the idealistic scenario, right?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: The idealistic scenario is organizations want to do this, people want to work.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the reality on the ground.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: The reality on the ground is change is difficult.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Change is very, very difficult.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, the gig work economy, so in a way, what we are doing is we're doing gig work for seniors or you know, more seasoned professionals.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Gig work for younger people has finally been accepted, right?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want a UIUX designer, you want this, that people will plug in and get these people, you'll go to the Upworks and Fivers of the World and you sort of find people and do it.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: But there is no nothing that exists for this larger segment.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: People want to, but they don't know how to.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: So they default to what they know, therefore, changing this.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: So if you go to any organization and you tell them, look, I can get you this expert, um, and they know exactly what to do, but they they will not become full-time.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: They'll be like, Oh.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so the reaction is so when the rubber hits the road, they'll be like, Okay, I don't know what to do.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, my view is it's gonna take longer, so it needs a narrative change, it needs a you know, like we have you know, mutual fund sahih, right?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Sort of a narrative change, and similarly, you need a narrative change that look, it's okay to actually have wiser people on your um payroll to help your organization do better things.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so but you know, the case is a very value-driven case.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: I actually, in fact, initially, when we started, um, you know, some people suggested look, this is a diversity inclusion situation, right?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: You should, and this is that question you'd asked me, I think, before we started recording, on this intergenerational piece.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: So here's what's going on in the world, right?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: In the world, and of course, you know, uh in a president of a country has actually changed the the definition of a diversity and inclusion, but um DEI started getting age diversity as a part of diversity and inclusion.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um what we have found out in talking to hundreds of people, if not thousands, is this segment does not want to be treated as a diverse segment.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: They're saying hire us for what we know and what we are good at.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Don't tell me I'm a part of diversity quota because I'm old.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: So there is ageism, but you know, let's not overly play out the ageism scenario and give us inclusion because of ageism, right?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: So they say, so therefore, our pitch to organizations is here's the value that they add.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: So again, this is you know a Niraj metric, which is the per unit cost of wisdom is lower as you get older, right?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: And no, it's valuable, but what I'm saying is the actual cost for a company is lower because people are not driven by money only, they're driven by respect a lot more, relevance a lot more.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think we are seeing the change happen.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: There are, like I said, you know, we've we've actually already worked with more than 250 organizations, so we're we are actually quite positive that this is picking up, and but what we are also finding, Sami, is the aspiration that we have doesn't exist, right?
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's hardly any company in the world trying to attempt doing what we are doing at scale.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: There are companies who've tried who basically said, look, again, the same logic, supply is there, but getting demand is difficult.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I tell people, you know, we our real job as Wisdom Circle is more from what we said earlier, which is a platform, you know, everything to we are evangelists to create jobs for this segment, to create meaningful work opportunities for this segment.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: So the conversation I've had with or I have with everyone is are there roles in your organization where you feel a problem can be solved by good people or good expertise and you need it now.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's the pitch.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what we are doing.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we are uh again because now we are in different markets, we can actually do a lot of cross-border.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, the the other learning is there are wisdom pockets in the world that need to get connected.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, there's a pocket of engineers sitting in Germany, there's a there's a pocket of mining folks sitting in Chile, there are uh people who are good at you know finance and commercial stuff a lot more sitting in London and New York.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um so how do you connect wisdom pockets of expertise to countries, companies, spaces, functions that need the expertise?
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we so we are thinking from you know equalizing the world kind of perspective.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not possible, right?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: This wasn't possible pre-COVID.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you know, remote work is possible, payment across borders has become possible.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh of course, you have to you know make sure labor laws are covered and you're doing the things the right way.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's what we do.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: Contraminds is a podcast dedicated to decoding people, minds, strategy, and culture.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: We interview and learn from high performers so that you can apply these lessons on your journey to becoming the knowledge worker athlete you are meant to be.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: The Contraminds Podcast is available on all leading podcast players.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if you are interested in revisiting past episodes or taking a look at our show notes from this episode, please visit us at www.contraminds.com.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: And now back to the show.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: So, which then brings me to the next aspect of uh longevity, which is really uh the way you learn, right?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: So if I am a say middle manager, middle manager today, where you know I have probably I'm in my 30s and 40s, uh you are going to be somebody who should become an expert when you uh age, right?
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: Therefore, your ability to learn uh becomes very important, and therefore the way you learn also probably needs to change, right?
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because uh so how do you really how do you think uh people should approach it?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because that is becoming more critical, because if I want if I have to be relevant when I'm 50, uh I need to learn when I'm in my 30s and forties, right?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: So and I need the flexibility and adaptability to be ready in my 50s and the 60s to actually work.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, what should I do in the interim decade or you know, say two decades that I should be a how should I prepare myself to learn?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very deep question, and I I don't think I am qualified to answer the question the right way, but let me tell you what I think.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I think that the people who will adapt in this changing world are people who are inherently curious.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if you are the kind saying, tell me what to do, I'll do it, you have limited runway.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now, curiosity is very difficult to learn as you get older.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, this is one of those things that has to start much sooner.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: So the advice I would give to my children, or rather, my children, of course, don't listen to me, but to my friends' children, would be is you know what what what Tim Cook used to say, right?
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, not Tim Cook, which uh Steve Jobs used to say is be curious.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's something about curiosity, and curiosity is of two kinds, and this is what we learned at Egon is there is curiosity of the outside world, and there's curiosity about the self.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so, therefore, curiosity means a mix of both.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: You have to know who you are and what are you good at and what you like and what not like and what gives you joy, what is your flow, you know, all of that scientific stuff.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: But you also have to be curious of how the world is changing.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now, can it be learned?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, of course it can be.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: But the first thing is you have to find joy in being curious because so that's one piece.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: The second piece, uh, and this is a very close friend of mine who now runs a very large AI company that uh that he started at the age of 57.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um used to tell me, and and I in fact he was he's one of the smartest people I know.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, one of the questions I would always ask him is what should I be teaching my kids?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right or what should my kids be learning so that they can adapt to this changing world?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: And he made a very profound statement to me, which has stuck.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: He said, Teach the kids how what did he say?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: He says they need to learn how to learn.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: That was his statement.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because in their lifetimes, they will have to unlearn and relearn many times.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, so that notion, and I think it links well with curiosity, this ability to to continue learning and unlearning and learning again.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, while that is on, I think you actually also talked about the expertise part.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: What we are finding in today's day and age is that the value of depth is way more than the value of general management.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: So in India, what happens at least is actually most part of the world, you know, India especially, right?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: You ask anybody what do they want, they want to be a manager.
• 35:43
  unknown: Right?
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: They want you want to be CEO, you want to.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: I actually, and right now we're seeing it on our platform.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: If you are damn good, like the other day we got a call, can you help us find a supercritical boiler expert?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll pay whatever we have to pay.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we're like, he says, yeah, because everybody's become general manager, nobody knows the engineering and the science and the subject.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, which is by the way, a country-level problem in many countries, whereas there's some countries like in Europe which are much more deeper in a subject.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually think, and my view, therefore, is I'm not saying like you know, I look at myself and this whole story I told you about going to business school and becoming learning many things.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the curiosity part, but you have to get deeper.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, the example is the 15 years of doing the same thing over and over again and getting good at it is what gives me the confidence today that I can handle anything in this subject area.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: But if tomorrow AI takes over the job, I'm like, okay, I gotta learn something new, and I have to get good at something else again.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so that's my uh my my take on this.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: Very nice, very nice, Neirach.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: Which then big uh takes me to the next pillar, which is really uh so let me let me pull back a bit.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: So what we said was uh I think the longevity of careers are increasing, yes, therefore, the way we work is changing, the way we learn uh we have to change, and the way we earn is going to change, right?
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, how do you see the way we earn changing?
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because uh you know the fact that uh you know lifelong employment uh you know increments year after year, uh you know sustained uh jobs uh are there uh you know changes that you are seeing, and therefore, if I were moving in my uh life, how should I approach the way I earn?
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: My swami, you asked me very difficult questions.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think I wish there were some simple answers.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: There is no simple answer.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I am going to attempt to take a stab at attempting it.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: No, the reason the reason I am asking that near just you got about hundred thousand people in your platform.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: Now the way they look at how they want to earn is an indicator for me on how I need to prepare when I when I actually reach there, right.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: So, because that is something that I think uh we all have to be ready for, which means that even at the age of say 30 or 40, my ability to look at flexible, my ability to look at uh gig work, my ability to look at uh you know uh expertise, all that needs a change, and that is the reason I am asking that question.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's a it's a very good question.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe I'll answer this a little differently and then please uh bear with me.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um the way I am going to answer this question is what does today's 65 a happy 65 year old today's seven-day week look like?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um so again, what does a happy 65-year-old's seven-day week today look like?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it'll answer inherently the questions you asked on today's situation, which is it's a portfolio life, which means they do multiple things.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um so if you take the seven days, the first two days are earning by doing things that you're really good at.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: So if I'm a very good marketing person, I work for two days a week with different companies, one company, multiple companies, to do to transfer my marketing skills to the benefit and of value creation and then earning money.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: The money I earn in those two days is enough for me to sustain my week and not dip into my savings.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: So there's an element of savings, right?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: So which we'll also talk about.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: So that's my two days.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: The third day is a day of teaching.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you had asked this question about intergenerational connections.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: What we have found in research is the ability to stand up and teach, literally, get up and teach younger people is such an important part of no matter what age you're at, of feeling very relevant.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now you may or may not get paid for it, but that's your third day.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Your fourth day is a day of giving.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Where you work for a non-profit, social impact, all you know, because again, in the research that we have done in these hundred thousand people, is a lot of people want to see these are things, and and and when we've asked people, um, are you happy?
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: and then we kind of understand their portfolio life, this is what we find.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, this is what 80% of the and there were always edge cases, but 80% of the people have this fourth day of social uh impact, right?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: So you got four days.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: The balanced three days are a mix of learning, a mix of family and travel.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever, you know, spiritual, whatever you put it's these are those three days are your days of staying relevant.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is the broader context of a happy 65-year-old today.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, portfolio life, earning and giving, teaching, and learning and spending time with family.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you start working backwards.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: When you are 55, you're learning, so in a way, you're playing around with this, right?
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you're uh teaching maybe on the weekend, you're giving maybe on the weekend, and it may be four days of working or five days of working, but that starts shrinking, right?
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: And but the underlying thing of this is the is you still need to save money.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now, now let's work backwards on the bigger question you ask.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: Earn.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think my advice in and what I've learned of all people who are happy as they get older have a much better handle on their own finances, right?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, this whole notion that we see, and I see this in in younger people today, is let me spend what I earn.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, even in my team, I have people okay, I don't want to uh save for my retirement yet.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but you know, we'll so a lot of us push out the future part, and I I think if you want to have a better life in the future, you have to save more sooner, and you have to work as as Morgan House uh says in his uh book, you know, you have to let compounding work for you because if you don't do it early on, so that's one piece.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: The second piece is is health insurance.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of people miss even it's a small, I mean, we think health insurance, you know, we'll see right now.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have any problem.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: Health insurance, life insurance, these costs go up as you get older.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: The the I tell people a lot of people who are uniting, I said, you know, if there's one thing that will drain your finances, no matter how much you have saved, is not having enough health insurance and and getting stuck with a health problem.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, to come back to your question on earning, I think opportunities to earn will increase.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: Commitment of organizations to individuals is already reducing.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: You have to take care of yourselves.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: If you take care of yourself, the money you earn, make sure you don't spend it all and save it.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure compounding works for you sooner than later.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: And now the question on learning, which I think is something I missed, it all goes in tandem, right?
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you're learning, earning, unlearning, learning, earning, and so all so it's a and you have to be prepared for it mentally.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: This whole notion that, oh, I did this and I'm going to be dependent for the rest of my life on something I did, it's not going to work.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: So the fact that be ready for volatility, be ready for uh change, be ready to have a portfolio in life.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think you've you you have really put it very well.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're and and have the money to last.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because so I was talking to somebody just yesterday, and he he was leaving at 55, and you know, he asked me, okay, you know, I'm thinking of having this portfolio.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he didn't phrase portfolio life, but that's what he was saying he wanted to do.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: He wanted to be a coach, he wanted to be a mentor, he wanted to help startups.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: I just asked him one question.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: I said, if you don't make money, how long do you think you will last?
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: He's like eight months.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Look, you have bigger problems to worry about.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, make sure you get back into a full-time job or whatever and save the money for you to do other things.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because by the way, the portfolio life does not pay as much as a full-time job does.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore, you know, unless you're really good at something where people say, Look, I want this and I'll pay whatever, you know, and now in this world of AI, so I'm saying there's lots of these complexities coming, but the more important part is you in your own head should know what is coming.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: So the first thing, and Tommy, you said it very well, you need to know what is coming and therefore be prepared for it.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: Very nice.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: And uh when you look at some of these experts, uh uh, you know, uh which uh I think uh you have a unique blend of having run an executive search uh firm and now you're looking at Wisdom Circle.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh when you look at these experts uh and when you when you really dissect uh them as experts where companies say, you know, I need that boiler expert kind of a point that you made, right?
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so what do you see of them and when you actually talk to them, uh what is it that they have acquired over their you know 15, 20, 30 year work experience that makes a difference at this stage?
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: Which means that I need to prepare all of that in the last 20 years, right?
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: Which is very, very important.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I it's a good question.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: I so I tell you what I see in good experts.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: Good experts, no matter what their age, are still learning about the same thing that they've learned.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: They don't stop learning, they're still reading the journals, they're still reading the they're in touch with what is going on.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: And right now I'll tell you, I mean, we are building a semiconductor vertical, and I'm I'm learning a lot about semiconductor expertise, and I'll share that with you if that makes sense because that's what India needs.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: But what we are finding is they're passionate or they've found an area which gives energizes them.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, and that has taken time, right?
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: And like I tell you, the first few years you don't finally finally you do find what you're good at, right?
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: And you say, Look, I'm good at this, and I'll continue doing it.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: So the continuous learning piece is a big piece, but at the same time, also knowing so good experts know what not to do.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because we always talk about good experts know what to do.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, AI will tell you what to do.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: Good experts know what not to do, right?
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and they're all good experts know shortcuts.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: Good experts know who to call when you need help.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: Good experts are not compliance, I mean they're not, they're not, I mean, they're the sort of you know, if you in in finance terms you would say, okay, good experts are follow the rule, cover compliance.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: But traditional good experts, like a good expert in a boiler, a good expert is, they will, I mean, it's the wisdom of experience that says no one, it's not written anywhere, but if you do this, these are the five things that can go wrong.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't do this, these are the ten things that can go wrong.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so to me, and it's people who find joy in that.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: I like and again, I don't claim to be a headhunting expert, but um you know, I spend way less time than uh most of my colleagues have, you know, only 15 years versus people who done the 20, 30 years.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: But there are things you can pick up when you talk to an individual, which you know that there's something wrong here, or there's something un you know, the it's like when you say, No, my gut says this.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: Good experts have a gut that is has a has a title written on it, semiconductor gut, or a you know, um a podcaster gut.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I mean you've done so many podcasts, you kind of know you know what is going to work in this podcast, whatnot, what might because you've done it so many times.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, fantastic.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think uh beautiful.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think uh the way you defined an expert uh was very interesting, staying relevant, doing it with uh on a repeated, repeatable basis, on a daily basis, being energized by it.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think uh it's a lovely, uh lovely definition of an expert.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I'm kind of coming to my last set of rapid fire questions.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so the first uh question I want to ask you, Neraj, is uh what does success mean to you?
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's changed over over time for me.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh success early on always meant uh financial stability, uh the ability to do what I wanted.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it had a lot to do with money initially, and and stature, titles, uh how people look at you, etc.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um and for some reason I think you know, once and most of us, I don't know, but once you cross 50 and you kind of realize that mortality, you know, has a definition and and there's only so much.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think success for me, in fact, I don't even use the word success anymore.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: I I say what gives you joy, what gives you happiness?
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: What I think it a lot has to be with uh for me it has to do with impact.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um I know it sounds too the same, but like and I've seen a lot of people, right?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen so many happy people doing non-profit work, I've seen so many happy people um you know teaching, I've seen so many happy people giving.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I used to always think, yeah, what's wrong with them?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: How can they be happy doing this?
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but then as you get older you realize, you know, it's only so much.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like at the end, taisadam you have to have, you have to, you know, you there's only so much you can you can eat, right?
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: What will you have?
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, fancy food, or been that done that.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now, today if you have fancy food, you have to go, you know, sit in the toilet for longer, right?
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you at the end your body balances out your needs versus wants.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: So impact, impact, and uh I think that's the important point that you're making, right?
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: And in my case, it is impact on people much more, and therefore impacting organizations through people, impacting people because they are what they are.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think for me that is again it's not success, it's what gives me joy.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: Success, I think I'm at least personally, I think I'm for me, okay.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: I do have a success would be that my children turn out better than me.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's sort of a maybe uh and better than me in any in anything and everything.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: To me, that would be a good measure.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I I look at it because I remember my dad uh before he passed away in December, you know, was always happy.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't have much money, but he was always happy, you know, my kids are doing well, right?
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you kind of at that you don't understand this when you are younger, but you understand it as you get older.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: What would be your advice to an 18-year-old in a university today?
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: So one of my sons is that and he doesn't listen to my advice.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I I'm I'm like putting him in my mind saying, Well, what will I tell him?
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: He'll be like, I know that, don't you know uh you know AI, I know chat GPT, I'll ask him the question.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, I don't know, Swami.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: I you know I what I can do is maybe if I was 18, what would I do?
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's the that's the way I can answer that question.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_02: Please, please do.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_02: Please do what you're comfortable with and what you are able to uh you know say with conviction.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_02: That to me is more important.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: So if I was 18 and I had to re-look at the future, I would actually do a lot more hands-on work to get ready for what is going to come in the future.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: I would go, you know, intern in a mechanic shop, I would go um, you know, work at McDonald's, I would uh, you know, uh I would mow lawns, I would, you know, I would do things, I would be a gardener, I would go work in a printing press to see how you know um thing books get printed.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: I would so I would do things a lot more hands-on because you can in a way there's a thematic thing here.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: I would expose myself to a lot more things, um, because for someone who's 18, you know, they've got at least another 82 years to go.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you might as well one experience things that are gonna get outdated because then you can look back and say, Oh, I at least knew how a book used to be printed.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, I think you would also then navigate, be able to navigate the future uh much better because you can look back on the past and your experiences in the past uh and not rely only on technology to tell you everything.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's the only advice I would have.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_02: Great, great.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_02: If you were to invite uh a couple of people for a dream lunch, uh who would you invite and why?
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_02: And they can be living or dead.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I would invite the founder of Egon Zender, he actually recently passed away, uh, and his assistant.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been fortunate enough to know both of them a little bit, at least as a listener.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um but you know they are the so the assistant was uh so Egon Zender's assistant was his assistant for life.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: She joined and she, I mean, literally 50 imagine 50 years she was an assistant.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and you had Egon Zender who built this company in 1964, died at the age of 9293, and built a company that I'm so proud to have been associated with.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um and to me the question the dream lines would be about how what kept you going.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: Both became experts in their area, and and very different, right?
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: One as an assistant, one as a uh as the founder.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and both had harmony in how they worked and liked each other and and did everything, and um and I think it's so the two and and understand from them what you know, and I I wish I can even get a little bit more of that to do because I keep telling that Rhythm Circle I'm on a mission, and there are days when you always think about am I doing the right thing, and you question, but there are people who just keep going, going, going, and in spite of the ups and downs, and I'm human, I you know, downs make me feel down, right?
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just thinking, how do you convert the downs into thinking positive?
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I would do.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I haven't thought about this, but I think that's that's what immediately comes to mind.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_02: What's one piece of advice?
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure you would have got a lot of advice, but what's one piece of advice that's remained with you which you continue to cherish even today?
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: One um this is around um authenticity.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think there was a uh uh me and a friend of mine were doing some research on authenticity and what does it mean?
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because we would always talk about you have to be authentic, you have to be authentic.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a piece of advice that stayed with me was something that both of us sort of came up with together, which was you are who you are when no one is looking.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think just staying true to that um you know, again, I I am not that, I'm not perfect, but that's the one that is sort of the the post, the lamp post that we work towards that look, um that's what you need to be because and I think you know age in a way does that as we get older, we actually don't care about what others think.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe it ties in with this whole longevity pieces as people get older they care hoots about what others think.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_02: What's one uh thing that you believe in that others don't agree with you on?
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_02: What's one thing that I believe in that others don't agree on?
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I again maybe I'm answering this thing, but I have a lot of beliefs, and I actually don't care what others think about it.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I I you know I I I don't think there's anything I never thought of it that way.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_00: I've just said this is my belief.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: And whether others believe it or not, that's their problem.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, this question around free will, and you can always you know get into these philosophical questions.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: My views, your views are your views, as long as you're happy with them, um, you know, it just don't worry about what others think about it.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's my answer.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's a good question.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think maybe I diverted the answer, giving you a gumperage answer, but uh I think.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: No, but I love the I love the word that you said, which is don't worry about what others think.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, I was not like this, right?
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Swami, I think you know, growing up in middle class India, pursuing a career, pursuing dreams, pursuing this thing, you always think about what others think because you you get judged by others, you get evaluated by others.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think finally, and maybe it is, and you've been through this journey, the moment you're doing something on your own, you actually can be yourself a lot more.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because you don't have anyone judging you or evaluating you, and if people are, you know, they are.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because at the end you are doing what you think is right.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I wish I was this uh sooner, but then I was thinking if I was this sooner, then you know I probably would have got fired, I probably would have so there are these cultural norms and social norms you have to, you know, you know, you have to get be evaluated, so you have to do what your boss wants, you have to do and and maybe you know I think you you've touched on something which in the future maybe what it will mean is that we will all be much more self-aware sooner, which will create a lot more disharmony in the world, but at least we will all be authentic.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_02: Nice, nice uh, nice way of putting it.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, on that note of authenticity, uh don't worry about what others think and your definition of uh success and harmony at work.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it was a lovely conversation, extremely engaging, and uh the depth of experience and uh the way you uh you know put it out there was very very good, and thanks a lot, uh Neeraj for talking to us today.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a lot to take, I'm sure the audience are going to find a lot of takeaways in this conversation.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks a lot.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: My pleasure, Sami, and thank you for for having me.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you for making me think.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, it's again, and maybe this is one of those things as we get older, right?
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like right now, a lot of people don't make me think as much.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think you made me think a lot today.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I now need to like go drink some chai and and sort of get get back into routine.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening to this episode.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: For selected links and detailed show notes, visit www.contramines.com.
• 59:52
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