Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / Justice Denied: A Child’s Voice Ignored: | Marita Murphy

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Justice Denied: A Child’s Voice Ignored: | Marita Murphy · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Appoche production.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: This podcast contains references to the sexual assault of children
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: and domestic violence. It's not recommended for younger listeners, and
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: discretion is advised. Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, Adam Shand. Since beginning this podcast, I've
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: been approached by a number of women seeking justice for
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: historical sexual assaults that have occurred, sometimes decades ago. My
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: sense of outrage and justice has moved me to advise
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: and to take their.
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: Cases to police.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: I've said this based on a perception that police are
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: more ready to pursue offenders.
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: Even after many, many years.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: Today's case we're discussing makes me think twice. In nineteen
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: sixty eight, seven year old Marita Murphy was gang raped
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: by two teenage boys, a crime witness by a third.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: She was discouraged from making a police report of the
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: time by her family and suffered in silence until twenty fourteen.
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: The policeman said to me, lady, I don't know what
• 1:12
  Speaker 4: happened to you, but you need counseling.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: The police investigation went nowhere, and so Marita was left
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: to bring a civil suit against the perpetrators.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: She lost that case and is.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Now one hundred thousand dollars out of pocket.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: My childhood was over at seven. It wouldn't matter how
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: much money someone gave me. Now I can't go and
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: buy a new childhood.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: This is a cautionary tale that suggests the odds are
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: still stacked against the victims. Maurita has told her story
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: in an award winning documentary called You Be the Judge,
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: which you can find on YouTube. Breita keeps fighting for
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: justice and it's my pleasure to welcome her to real crime.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: I'm Marita, my pleasure. It's a long story. Start at
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: the beginning.
• 1:59
  Speaker 4: It's a lifetime. My father died first of July nineteen
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: sixty eight. I lived in a Catholic community up in Gippsland,
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: past Pakenham and Nagoon, and it was a pretty sheltered existence.
• 2:14
  Speaker 4: But Mum got sick and I was the youngest of seven,
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: so she had a fair bit on her plate and
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: I was home with Gran, who I worked out was
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: eighty four at that time and Mum had been an
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: only child, so Gran was quite frail and not used
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: to lots of children. But I was picked up and
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: taken to Melbourne by a family. There I was suffered
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: very serious sexual abuse that was life altering and continues
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: to plague me to this day.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Now, your memories are very clear about what happened, and
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: that's the difference to many other cases I've covered.
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, I know it's painful, but.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Do you want to share a little bit of a
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: story so people can get an idea of what you suffered.
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: I think you know a lot of people have repressed memories,
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: and I don't think I ever fell into that categree.
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: You're not trying to remember, you're trying to forget, but
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: you are imprinted. And the adults knew because I told
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: on these youths, and so my voice had power at
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: the age of seven, and Mum supported me because when
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: she got me back, she knew what had happened. And
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: I reported to the police in May twenty fourteen, as
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: the Royal Commission was into childhood sexual abuse was running
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: in Australia, with Ballarat featuring very highly and I kind
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: of just wanted to purge it. But when the police
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: found the main one, what's hard to say I was
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: the main one. He wasn't the main offender, but it
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: was his family's home that I was at. I had
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: this sense of relief that, oh, thank Heavens, this is over.
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: But to be the truth of it was that was
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: the beginning, because he said to the police when he
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: was interviewed, that he did not know me, and he
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: did not know his foster brother, an Aboriginal youth that
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: was staying with them at the time. His name was
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: Eugene Samuel Lovett, and I'm grateful to his mother to
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: this day that she blessed him with an exotic Greek
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: name meaning well born, because if he had a just
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: been called Fred or Barry, possibly we wouldn't have been
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: able to identify him. But I grew up with the
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: imprint of that was the first Aborigining I'd ever met.
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: He was a juvenile delinquent, he was a criminal. He
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: went on to become a serial predator. And if they're
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: not stopped, and he obviously wasn't stopped with me, and
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: he probably didn't face any consequences, that is the thing.
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: They just keep on reoffending. But to his credit, he
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: did the right thing. And when he passed away, I
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: think in February twenty twenty, him and I had made peace,
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: and it's his support that's enabled me to speak freely.
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: I haven't been sued. The other party was a very
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: wealthy Melbourne entrepreneurial businessman and he's lied. He's committed perjury
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: in the EFFI David to court for the civil case.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: He signed.
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  Speaker 4: One of the questions he signed was that the two
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: families weren't known to one another. Well, why would my
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: sister have his home address and his parents' details in
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: her address book if we weren't known to one another.
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: But he's faced no consequences for his lies and I'm
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: out a pocket over one hundred thousand dollars.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: That rankles a lot.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: I'm sure it does.
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  Speaker 2: We won't name him so he can't cause more financial
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: damage to you or I. You named him previously and
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: we won't do that again. But it was a simple
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: matter for him to deny this for so long as
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: you were left with few options with the police.
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: What did the police tell you?
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Well, they were hot and cold.
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: Initially I reported in Ballarat and the detective here did
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: no good, and I hadn't included anybody much else. I
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: just purged this what was within me, trying to get
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: rid of it. And he asked if he could ring
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: and speak to my sister. She was the oldest of
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: the family by eleven years to me, and he rang
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: her in wa and she pulled out the address book
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: and gave him the address. But as a detective, he
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: didn't actually asked her to spell the surname. And it
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: can be pronounced and sound the same and have three
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: different spellings. I've seen three different spellings. My brother on
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: mum's obituary had spelt it wrong and that's what he
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: was dealing with. It was incorrect. So when he saw
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: that it was indeed a bayside suburb in Melbourne of Elstenwick,
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: it went to Morabin and the socket detective that took
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: it up there. I've never even met him, Adam. I've
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: traveled from Ballarat to Morabin on three occasions. He rang
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: my sister and she's obviously spelt the surname and he's
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: got him straight away. So he rang me very excitedly
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: and said I've interviewed him and the response was that
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: he's never heard of me, and he's never heard of
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: the Aborigine, his foster brother. But surprisingly then he went
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: one step further, this detective and he said that he
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: was a chance to go to Perth for something, and
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: he interviewed his younger brother, who was the witness to
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: the gang rape, and they wouldn't have been expecting that.
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: And the younger brother said that I didn't exist, but
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: Eugene did exist. So if I'm a seven year old
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: little girl from up in the country, how the hell
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: could I know they had an aboriginal juvenile delinquent staying
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: with them. So I just said to the police, well,
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: I'm going to approach this wealthy individual myself, and they
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: said you can't do that, and I'm like, who's going
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: to stop me? I'm an adult. He has a public place,
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: so I went there. He wasn't there, which was probably
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: a fortunate thing because I was getting angry. Howdare you
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: treat me in this manner? Callous? Just so sorry, just
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: do the right thing.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: But I left some.
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: Information there for him, and his lawyer rang me and
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: set up a meeting in Tuaq. I went alone, but
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: my then husband and my sister, some people from mary
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: in Ole and the police knew, so they felt that
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: I was safe enough and I went met them with
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: them for an hour, where the end of it, they
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: threatened me and vacated the boardroom and he'd said to me,
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: I know David Hayes, and I'm like, oh, this is
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: excellent news, this is great. So I rang David Hayes,
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: you know, famous racing dynasty in Australia. I worked for
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: his dad for three or four years at Flemington because
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: I had no education. And David's now leading trainer in
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: Hong Kong. So I rang David from the boardroom and
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: we talked for twenty minutes. Obviously I didn't make any
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: accusations to him. But then I do this man for rape,
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: And as I say to people, why would you see
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: someone for rape. I'm just a stay at home mom
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: from a little country town in Victoria. Like I don't
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: have those kind of resources. It's absolutely crippled me morally.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: I've won.
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: Their names are now online put there by the Supreme
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: Court of Melbourne. But I haven't even been compensated for
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: you Gene, and he signed a confession of sorts and
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: he's in my documentaries and that happened.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: Wow, make it up?
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: Well, you didn't make it up.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: And I think when I see the elements of your case,
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: the recollection is very striking. You remember the individuals. You
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: can see the textbook impact on a young child where
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: you go from being good at school and suddenly your
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: grades crash, you become uncontrollable, you have all kinds of
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: issues because you're not being listened to. You're being asked
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: to sweep this tragic or it was traumatic event under
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: the carpet.
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  Speaker 4: Crimes, crimes that went on for a week to ten days,
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: and I reported to the police when I reported three
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: instances was actually a week to ten days of me
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: being the honeymoon child of unprotected sex. My brother told me,
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: and it's assigned Affi David now that they actually rape
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: me with a stick as well. So when you start
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: becoming sexually active and you're not stopped, you know, it's
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: like I wanted to eat chocolates, isn't it. If you've
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: got a box at chocolates. I mean, you're gonna eat
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: them till you feel sick of them. And I was
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: their victim. They were crimes and a child shouldn't be
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: expected to suck up serious criminal life altering offending. It's
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: not wrong. And if reporting in the systems that we
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: have in place worked at and we wouldn't have needed
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: a raw commission into childhood sexual abuse that ran in
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: Australia for five years and not being sexist, just being
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: factually it was fundamentally called for boys. The statistics will
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: show there are more girl victims than boy victims. But
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: society and I understand it, have great empathy towards a
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: young boy that sexually views because it interferes with his
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: natural masculinity as he's growing up. But to a child
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: of seven, it doesn't matter whether you're a girl or boy.
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: The damage is just it doesn't matter that your gender,
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: The damage is just horrific. And I know because I
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: have the lived experience, and I call myself a sexpert.
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: I've done this, I've had an interest in this, and
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: I'm very passionate about it. Since the age of seven.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: I've been calling out for people to come forward with
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: these stories since I spoke to Fleur.
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: If you remember from another episode.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: I do that, yes, and the stories are strikingly similar.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: Young women, young girls being sexually assaulted, their families, not
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: wanting to cause a fuss, not wanting to get the
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: police involved, the victims holding off getting any police action
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: involved for decades, and then later on going what the hell,
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: why have I kept quite all these years?
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: And then going to the police.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: For somebody else, to protect somebody else, and particularly when
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: it's protecting a mother or a father, or the church
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: congregation or the next or neighbors, whoever it is, and
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: then trying to get justice, being told that yes, we
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: take historical sexual assault cases seriously, but then coming up
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: against all kinds of roadblocks and people say, why did
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: you wait so long?
• 12:46
  Speaker 5: And I think that's the answer, is that this is
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: always what's being asked of people, and I think it's
• 12:51
  Speaker 5: so frustrating. And you're right, young men, boys have had
• 12:56
  Speaker 5: a lot of coverage of this wordas I think it's become.
• 12:58
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think if we were at a survey
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: of young women, I mean, god knows what the percentage
• 13:03
  Speaker 5: would be, but it's very high, particularly of your generation.
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: Maybe it's getting better, I don't know.
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: As an advocate, I would say it's every second woman,
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: because I'm having these conversations on a daily basis, online,
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: in person, and I'm really honored to hear the stories
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: that I've heard, personal stories of people who've never said anything,
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: but they've never had anyone bowl up to them and say, oh,
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: I'm a child's six abuse aweness advocate.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Here's my card and.
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: Then again, you know, I'm just full of all this
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: trauma and stories to the point, and you would find
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: the same that you start to see patterns. You just
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: see patterns of behavior, actions, in actions and regarding people
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: not reporting or keeping it in the family. I say,
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: take the personalities out of it. It's crime because it
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: enables this criminal behavior to just continue unchecked, which is
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: what happened with Eugene. I know for a fact that
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: he had other victims, and he was known on the
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: street as a perpetrator. Why would you stop if you
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: don't face ramifications from and I mean because he'd been
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: in Tarana, I've got no doubt he would have been
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: a victim himself. So it's breaking the cycle by speaking
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: up about it. But what irks me is that I'm
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: mad a pocket. I'm mad a pocket. It's destroyed my marriage.
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: I've got no superannuation and somebody needs to step up,
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: because if I'm not going to be compensated for the
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: wealthy one, why aren't I being compensated for the Aboriginal
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: water of the state of the Victorian government, stolen child,
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: a person they couldn't control. He was the only one
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: that my investigation showed escape from not one but two
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: Romand centers in nineteen sixty eight. Why am I having
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: to investigate my own case, which is in the end
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: pretty much what I've done. What are the police get
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: paid for?
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: Let's work through what happened in the criminal investigation into
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: your case.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: What happened I.
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: Reported on the fourteenth of the fifth twenty fourteen, and
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: honestly it was the first time in detail that I've
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: actually spoken about what happened to me. I've just reiterated
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: that I only stated three cases of digital rape, sexual
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: abuse by Eugene on the first night, and a gang rate.
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: I remember the policeman said to me, you know for
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: the gang rap, did they penetrate you? And I grew
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: up in this really holy I'm a prude, Adam. I
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: was never promiscuous, and I remember just thinking, I'm not
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: going to answer that question.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: I was seven, I was a child.
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: I'm not going to sit here with a grown adult
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: man and answer that question. I just pulled the blind down.
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: I didn't answer that question. I just didn't want to
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: talk about it. Why would you? At that point, I
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: hadn't had any counseling or therapy, so I wasn't practice.
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: You get quite emotional, and he said to me, what
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: do you hope to achieve? And I couldn't answer him,
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: but in my head I just thought, jeez, it'd be
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: nice to talk about this without sucking, because I literally
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: couldn't have a normal conversation because it was so traumatic.
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: I'm kickings, aren't I? Because now I can just talk
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: about it. This happened to me. I'm sharing what happened
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: to me. All victims, when they speak, will tell you
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: the same thing that they don't want it to happen
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: to other children. And if their voice and their lived
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: experience helps, well, I'm putting it out there because young
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: children getting through their childhood safe and sexually safe is
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: more important than my little feelings. So yes, the investigation
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: went to Perth from the detective in Morabin, and then
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: it all just completely went dead and quiet, and I
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: was even thinking, you know, dark thoughts, like has this
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: wealthy person been able to make this go away? Because
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: they're just hot cold with their investigation. One minute it's shut,
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: the next minute it's open. Next minute he understands that
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: I'm starting to do stuff, and then he reopens the case.
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: He took him a year and a half nearly to
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: find Eugene. I wasn't active on social media by choice.
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: I was a private person, and I got on Facebook
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: pretty much found him in ten minutes.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Adam.
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: That just sickened and disgusted me. It was just a
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: very clear we're just pretending to investigate, We're not actually
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: really going to do anything.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: But so in the end the case goes no further.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: It's sort of closed, is that right?
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: No, well, it was closed until he realized that I
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: was doing stuff, and then he reopened it and in
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: the meantime I had started legal proceedings. So after the
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: Royal Commission, one of the recommendations was it's an average
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: of thirty three years of children speaking up.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Mine was a little bit longer.
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: I still had young children at home and it impacted
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: on my parenting, and it impacted greatly financially because I
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: was still at school. I had to sell a unit
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: to pay my police identified perpetrator and they called it
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: my income and I had to pay seventeen thousand dollars
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: of what the children had received for schooling, part A
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: tax and part B. So the financial bird was immense
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: and it still is today.
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: You paid that to the perpetrator, yeah, in.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: A personal check.
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: So how well I sued him unsuccessfully, so even though
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: they'd changed the statue of limitations laws and turns.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: Out I was the test case.
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: He appealed and a county court woman judge looked at
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: it and ruled that we go on to trial. And
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: because he had the money, he appealed to the Court
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: of Appeals in two parts, one to get it thrown
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: out and the other one to get his identity hidden.
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: And I couldn't afford to fight both and lose both,
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: so I just fought to get him into court. And
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: I had empathy for the fact that they were only fourteen,
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: even though I was only seven.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: And there was two of them.
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: I wasn't out to crucify or dirty his good name,
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: whatever may be. But when the judges ruled in his
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: favor that I couldn't sue him, they said it would
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: be an abusive power. The real abusive power was two
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: fourteen year old with a seven year old and I
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: had a bill of one hundred and twenty thousand payable
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: to him and his lawyer, who threatened me in person
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: and online. He hired a law firm to pursue me.
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: I just opened up my emails one day and there's
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: a bill for one hundred and twenty thousand from this
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: other law firm, and I just rang them and said,
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: I want to speak to the principal who I got
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: and I just said, you've just sent me a bill
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: for one hundred and twenty thousand. If you don't know
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: what it's for, I suggest you google it and do
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: not contact me again. And he didn't. They didn't pretty
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: decent of them, really. I just said, cease and desist.
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: Even though I'm uneducated, I've seen these things. I've heard
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: this terminology.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: So you left school at the age of twelve, Maria
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: because of this abuse, didn't you?
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, twelve midterm And mum had taught hsc VCE when
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: she was twenty one. Clearly a woman who believed in
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: education for girls who leaves school at twelve, you know.
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: And when I went to core for I went and
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: worked with racehorses. When I went there, I realize now,
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: And not only do I realize now, Adam, but it's
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: coming out constantly. I was surrounded by abuse, young people
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: finding solace and soothing themselves with working with horses. And
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: there's been two cases recently from Corfield at that time.
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: Historic cases just pop up, people that I know. You
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: get perpetrators, you get victims, and the perpetrators are always bigger, stronger, older, wealthier,
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: more powerful, etc.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: That's how it works. But victims are fighting back.
• 20:46
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yours is a caution retail, Marita, because I've spent
• 20:51
  Speaker 6: years telling people they should bring these historic sexual assault
• 20:55
  Speaker 6: cases to police and to fight them.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: And that's every fiber of my body says justice should
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: be done. But when you look at the statistics, it's
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: one or two percent of these cases come to a conviction.
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: And so you flip that that's a guaranteed ninety nine
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: percent fail.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so you're one of the few that continues
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: to fight. You make a civil action which breaks the bank.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: And I mean, would you do anything differently now, I mean,
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: is a silly question.
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: Yes, I'm glad you asked me that I would have
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: hired a private investigator. And that's what I would recommend
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: people do. And of course, now we've got the power
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: of social media, so I tell people, whether it be
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: religion or social media, take the best and leave the rest.
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: Because people are very hostile about the damage it does
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: to children. But the flip side is it can also
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: give victims the voice, and it also is great entrapment
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: for perpetrators. Like we had a case here in balorat
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: high school not long ago where our children went. Lovely man,
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: lovely teacher and the day the police knocked on his
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: door for inappropriate relations with the student, they seized his devices.
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: She was all over over. He resigned that day. The
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: victim families tied ribbons at the school and the school
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: left them there. The school took full ownership. They made
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: a statement, I mean, you look at the other Elstenwick case.
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: She's facing seventy four charges and the school board helps
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: her flee in the middle of the night to protect
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: their good name. Well, actually, if you had any brains,
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: your good name would be to frog march her down
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: and ander over.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: To the police.
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: It's ridiculous. And then the law didn't bring her back.
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: Her victims board her back. They used their civil payouts
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: to film her secretly, and the victims do all the
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: heavy lifting. That story has just been released on a
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: documentary on Netflix. But as a victim, I've had to
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: make my own documentaries. Nobody's stepped up. I've had to
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: go out on a limb big time.
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: Well, you're full of dash.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: You made that documentary You be the Judge, which is
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: one awards, and it's a stark tilling of this tale.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: And I was particularly interested in your fellow victim advocate,
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Ingrid Irwin, I believe her name is, who said she's
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: a lawyer. She's a lawyer, and she said, don't bother
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: with the legal route. You're better off looking at counseling route,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: the medical route.
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: What do you think of that?
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Now?
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: Well, it's really heartbreaking because again I go back to
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: if you're reporting and you've got a one percent conviction rate,
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: that's a guaranteed ninety nine percent failure rate. And if
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: you look at it and do the work, this is
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: a worldwide You know, you've got Bill Cosby, You've got
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: six decades, sixty victims, and I think he's free now.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Now why is he freeze? Because he's wealthy.
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: I mean his enablers were medical practitioners allowing him to
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: purchase drugs for his date raping. And you know you
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: could be giving them to your daughter, Adam, and she
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: might be on medication for epilepsy.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: Now they're saying, oh, release the list, release the list
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: for Ebstein and I'm like, dam bat lists. Just lock
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: up perpetrators because miners cannot consent. Oh, it's just ridiculous
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: when you look at it, you know. And you had
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: the premiere at the heart of the Royal Commission saying
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: we see.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: You, we hear you, we believe you. How does that help?
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: What struck me in your documentary was the extent you
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: went to to get to the perpetrators you found, Eugene
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: love it.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: How did you do that?
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: I went on Facebook co covertly, just putting little posts
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: up and it happened really quickly. Three women from various
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: backgrounds just.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Got behind me. I didn't know them.
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: Somebody local asked me to meet them at the local shop,
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: and I didn't know who I was going to meet.
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: They had an alias on and I just had put
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: enough out there for people that she was beautiful. Actually,
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: it's been some really wonderful parts, heartwarming that while these
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: women were on the street in Collingwood discussing what's the
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: best thing to do because they knew him as they
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: were a little bit frightened of him, he was in
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: a mobility scooter and while they were discussing the best way,
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: and they were liaisoning was someone that knew him who
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: was in Werribe, and that person was offering to come.
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: In which case we do have to stand in the
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: street and wait while this person came. And while they
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: were discussing what's the best thing to do, I just
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: went to him and he was parked in front of
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: a tab and I've got a photo of that, and
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: it's just so weird. And he used to follow Gary
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: and Sebastian Murphy, so he was pretty excited.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: To meet me.
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: But there was a hidden agenda and he came my way.
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: He didn't know about the court case. He'd been interviewed
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: by the police. And when I said to him, I've
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: publicly named you as raping me as a child, and
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: it's online and it'll be online forever, he just came
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: my way. I just felt he was like butter. He
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: was a really smart person. And his former wife had
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: lived in a car with her family growing up and
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: become Victoria's first registered Indigenous female barrister.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: It's that amazing, it is.
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: And he freely admitted. He freely admitted his involvement in
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: the offenses.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Yes, and I've been seeking.
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: I went and met a lawyer last year in Melbourne
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: from a different law firm, and he said, if you
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: can get his criminal record and his juvenile delinquent files
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: and I look at them, I might be able to
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: bring a case on your behalf. So I emailed my
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: socket detective that day immediately and straightway he responded and said, no,
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: can't help. So I contacted Anthony Carbine, so he's the
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: Minister for Police, Crime, Prevention and Racing and his aide
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: i'd met who had previously worked at the ballot at
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: Turf Club and they've just stonewalled me.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: I've just been down.
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: Every rabbit hole, I've chased every and of to date
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: nothing I think.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: You've done more than going rabbit holes. You've dug your
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: own tunnels. You've done your best. And I wonder why
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: why wasn't Eugene then charged. If you've got someone that
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: you've got him on tape confessing.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: To so weird, it's so weird. And it was so
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: good of him, you know.
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: It really warmed my heart and it helped heal the
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: private racial vilification that I hid within me, him being
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: the first Aboriginal that I'd ever met. I also read
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: a book called Jackson's Track, and it allowed me. When
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: you're just internalizing everything, you're kind of not healing. So
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: in that way, even though I kind of poohood therapy
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: and I am in therapy, I went yesterday funded by you,
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: the taxpayer, my pleasure, thank you, by the Melbourne Magistrates'
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: Court to the tune of over six thousand dollars, which
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: I was pretty annoyed because given that my trauma now
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: is mostly financial, and I am grateful that they have
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: helped definitely. And I mean even if you're just using
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: the system as an advocate to know how to help others,
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: that's useful as well.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: And you say you had rejected the idea of therapy
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: before this, why was that?
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: Well, I was busy and I couldn't afford it. I
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: still had children at home. When all this, you know,
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: the body keeps the score and the trauma comes back,
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: so as much as people try, often when it comes
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: back and it resurfaces, people have a breakdown. So it
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: all kind of goes hand in hand if you read
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: the stories like Blood on the Rosary is a perfect example,
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: which was based at Rupertswood's Alesian College and my brother
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: Bernard had been a border there as dad was dying,
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: so we all kind of put our heads together and
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: wonder if he was abused.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: But he denies it.
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: But often people will deny it because you're not trying
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: to remember, you're trying to forget.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: In your documentary the Judge, there's sections that you're there
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: with your husband and he's explaining the impact it's had
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: on him. I think at the time of the documentary
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: you were sort of living in the house together, but
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: your marriage was effectively over. And he looks like a
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: nice guy for all I can see, and it's just
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: taken a massive toll on him and you, Yeah, I'm
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: very sorry for that.
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: Well, I owe him fifty thousand dollars and I won't
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: stop until I get it back, and pain like he's
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: worked very hard, diligently, well respected for forty years in racing,
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: followed by two ambulances getting up at three and four
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: in the morning as I have, and that money's not
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: easy to come by when you have to work for
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: it seven days a week like that.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: So it really irks me.
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: And I hope that this guy's family and I've had
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: people contact me convertly.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: They're frightened of him. I'm not.
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: You know, the truth hurts some people. So if he
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: doesn't want to admit it and fix the situation, maybe
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: the next generation will say, well, that happened at Grandma's house,
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: and obviously the woman's telling the truth, and it's a
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: women's rights issue. It's bigger than me. I'm just the
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: bunny bringing it forth. What's the point in changing the
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: statue of limitations laws for child sexual abuse to then
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: say it's too long ago. If I go to court
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: and my evidence is given and I've failed due to
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: the passage of time, at least you've had a hearing.
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: But to have to pay to not be heard, that's
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: a gracious courage of justice.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: And as my life, the whole thing is, And you
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: can talk about advocating for other people, but it's still
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: your life, your situation. And you've in a situation where
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: the police investigations effectively ended your loss of civil cases,
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: put you well behind the appall financially. What is left
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: for you to do to get justice in your case?
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: Well, Eugene backed me into the redress scheme and absolutely
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: busted my boiler. I got a public petition for that
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: and I've probably got nearly twelve thousand signatures, and now
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: I had under on a paper copy including eugenes, and
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: when submitted it was denied and an appeal was put
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: in about a year ago, and I haven't heard anything.
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: And the top amount of money you can get you've
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: got to have penetration, which I had through digital rape,
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: is only one hundred and fifty thousands, and nobody gets that.
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: If I got any compensation from that, it stops any
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: other legal avenue and it would only be my own
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: money back, so there'd be no compensation. It would just
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: purely be my own money back for speaking out. So
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: it's a smelly, smelly redress scheme. Why do they call
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: it a scheme? You know it's just insulting to victims.
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: But maybe, you know, if the family feel heat from me,
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: maybe someone's somewhere along the line will do the right
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: thing and give back my money and maybe even some compensation.
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, if I can
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: live an ease and function, it's only money. I would
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: like my money back. I shouldn't be able to pocket
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: for merely telling the truth. And if the opp aren't
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: going to bring a case on my behalf, and that
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: that is beyond reasonable doubt. Well, let me go civil,
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: which is in all probability. Nobody. I've been shunned in
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: lots of areas, but nobody's called me a liar.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, I don't think you're going away, Mariata. And I
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: really appreciate you telling your story, and I wish I
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: could give you more comfort or solution or some advice.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: But you've done everything you possibly can, including the redress scheme.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: I've heard of boys who were in Taranta and was
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: simply it he said, versus he said, and they got compensation.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: But you're somehow tonight, even when you've got the perpetrator
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: signing your petition.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: What else do you want me to do?
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: I have no idea.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: I have no idea him when and Eugene is now deceased.
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: Yes, I thought when he passed, I thought, well, he's
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: gone to meet his maker with a pretty clear conscience.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: Though it was pretty good of him too.
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: He had a young boy, and I'd found the photo
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: of him and his son, and I took that and
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: put it under his nose, and you could see he
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: sort of melted. And I said, you love that little boy,
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: don't you, and he said yes, And I showed him
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: picture of me with mum and I said, well, my
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: mum loved me too, but something awful happened. And as
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: a child, and the stress that she had with nursing
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: her husband and then him dying and then leaving her
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: with children and other stresses like having five boys, getting
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: cars and licenses and driving and what have you.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: I watched her as a child.
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: She was so upset about what had happened to me
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: and that she felt like she hadn't been able to
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: protect me, that she had a complete nervous breakdown, Adam,
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: and I was the witness to that. No child should
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: have to go through that either.
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: The trauma goes on and on and on. Thank you
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: so much for sharing a story to that, Marita.
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: Oh, thank you for amplifying it on my behalf and
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: gutting me speaking and naming names and potentially opening myself
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: up to litigation while there's another way into court. But
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: he said he was innocent in the press. But he
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: hasn't countersued me, which that's good because that would have
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: been pretty stressful. But I cannot legally threaten him, but
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: I can threaten myself if it just gets too hard.
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: I think that they should do the right thing and
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: try and find a solution which allows me to get
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: on with the rest of my life. It's heartbreaking, and
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: I imagine if a me and dollar's compensation came into
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: the home as opposed to a deficit of one hundred thousand,
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: everything would have been hunky dory.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: That's Ruda Murphy as a cautionary tale historical sexual assault
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: that goes unpunished. And this really gives me a dilemma
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: because I've always advised women police are now listening, go
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: and bring your stories to them, seek justice. But Marita's
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: story gives me second thoughts, and you should watch her
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: documentary on YouTube.
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: You be the judge.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: It may well be that you need to consider other avenues.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's counseling, but there are so many more people
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: out there, and I think the best thing we can
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: do is to have these discussions, and maybe there are
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: lawyers out there who can find a way around this
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: in the commercial sphere to make these perpetrators pay where
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: it hurts from their pocket. If you can't jail them,
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: at least take their money and compensate the victims.
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: Like Marita Murphy, if.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: You are a victim of this kind of offense or
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: any others, do call crime stoppers when they're under triple three,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: triple zero. You don't at the cops, so they're not
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: helping you. Send me an email Adam Shanner, writer at
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: gmail dot com, and I'll do my best to advise you.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: I don't want to give you false hope, but I
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: think the first thing is to find your voice and
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: tell the story the way Marita has.
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: Thank you for listening today. This has been Adam shanned
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: for real crime. Thanks for listening to this episode and
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: supporting this story.
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: Independent storytelling that shapes the world is what podshape really
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: cares about.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: Right now, There's thousands of people listening to this show
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: and our other.
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: True crimes, and they're completely engaged. More than ten million
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: Australians listen to podcasts each week.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: If you've ever thought about advertising your business in a podcast,
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: there's a link to reach out in the show notes,
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: or head to podshape dot com to book a free call.