Latest / The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers / From Alcoholic Trial Lawyer Afraid to Get His Mail to Helping Lawyers Thrive - with Gary Miles

Transcript

From Alcoholic Trial Lawyer Afraid to Get His Mail to Helping Lawyers Thrive - with Gary Miles · The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Wellness Esquire podcast.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Ariella and I'm so excited to share this conversation with Gary Miles.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Gary practiced as a trial lawyer for over 40 years, building and managing a successful firm.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: But behind all those external victories, Gary spent many of those years practicing as an active alcoholic, a secret he carried while maintaining that high-performing exterior so many of us are familiar with.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Now, with 44 years of sobriety, Gary has transitioned from the courtroom to coaching, helping lawyers move from surviving to flourishing.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: In this conversation, Gary talks about the crushing weight of lawyer burnout and anxiety.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: He talks about being, in my words, a kick-ass litigator who was simultaneously too paralyzed by anxiety to even open his own mail.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: We discussed the perfectionist trap that keeps so many of us stuck, the limitations of traditional lawyer assistance programs, and why reaching out for help is often the most courageous legal strategy you'll ever employ.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: And we talked about how lawyers can build a life in law that doesn't require you to sacrifice your soul.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is a very relatable conversation for all of us.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm so grateful to Gary for his openness and for the work he does now so that other lawyers don't have to struggle the way he did.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Enjoy and remember to subscribe.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Really lovely to chat with you.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: How are you?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: How are you feeling today?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm doing great.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing great.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: And um just to let you know, I have sort of a hard cut at about 9.55 because I have people coming in my house and they'll be noisy, not because of anything on my schedule.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um and totally fine.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh how long have you been doing your podcast?
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: So um I it's not it's not um launched yet.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't launched yet.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: I actually started uh initially, I started recording podcasts, uh, episodes a couple of years ago.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I hit pause because I start after October 7th, because I've been involved in a lot of advocacy work and I just didn't have the bandwidth.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I was planning to, you know, keep keep recording and launching probably like November, but I just had to shift.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then, but you know, the this being a value in both part of my life and important to me, I in the last few months was like, all right, how are we how are we gonna get back to this?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: How do we do all of the things?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh and how do I bring these conversations to more people?
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I only recently, uh in the last maybe month, month or so, month or two, um, got back to recording.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I'm getting a bunch at a time so that I can uh launch kind of and and stay ahead of the game a little bit.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's the plan.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Gotcha.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, amazing.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: So okay, 954, we will be done.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Somewhere between 954 and 954.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of a different point that I can't imagine what you've been through in the last um going on two years now.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's just so horrible and so tragic.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess I am very naive.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: I have a lot of Jewish friends.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up working in a Jewish club.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm was born Irish Catholic.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm not Catholic anymore.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's neither here nor there.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: But the trauma it must be for you.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just so appalled at how the world, particularly our country, not our government, but our pe some of our people have reacted to this whole thing.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like it just boggles my mind.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, just give our hostages back and the war's over.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like, what the heck?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, like how are we the bad guys in this?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I just I just it it and I really had thought after everything happened, World War II, and there might have been some remnants of anti-Semitism among some people, but I never thought it was as profound and actually transparent as it is now.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I I just um didn't know of your background, and I'm just uh want to express my sympathy and affection and support.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: I I I really can't adequately express how meaningful it is to hear that because it, you know, I I um that's not what everyone says, you know, and so I'm very vocal.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: I I was involved in zero Israel or Jewish advocacy before October 7th, um, and started, you know, after, um, pretty immediately after.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and since then I've been very vocal about who I am and what I believe and you know my values and all of those things.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but you never know who you're talking to.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and it's incredibly meaningful to get on calls with people, to talk about something else, and for that to be for that to be your viewpoint, and I and I'm I'm I'm really so grateful because it it it's been a it's been a really hard nightmare.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in a nightmare nightmare.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh and one of the things that I really enjoy sharing with my um with my community and with my network is these kinds of conversations that I have where you know people who I didn't specifically connect with or didn't specifically connect with me because of Israel or or anti-Semitism share our viewpoints and our values here.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so many Jews um have just felt so left behind and so astonished at what's happening.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: I bet.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: So to hear other people say, yeah, we see this and we see it's insane and we're not okay with it.
• 5:55
  unknown: Right.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: It it's hard to find the words to express how how how much it means to hear that.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: What are you doing?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Are you are you still practicing law?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: I have a law firm.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: I actually launched my own firm after October 7th.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: I I'd been looking to do something different.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was thinking about going in-house.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then in part of it was just the the way I wanted to direct my time and energy shifted so profoundly after October 7th that I wanted, I already wanted more control over how I was spending my time and my energy and what kind of clients I was working, and all of these kinds of things.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: More so oriented around the well-being stuff.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but then there was then, you know, this add-on of, you know, well, I want to make sure that I'm only working with clients that think that I should be alive.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of work do you do?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so my practice is um, I do general uh fashion and general counsel work for the most part, um, and a mix of bit businesses in different kinds of industries.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: My background is FDA policy and healthcare and life sciences, which I still do, but now I'm more across across the board, for-profits, nonprofits, um, you know, startups, uh, um a lot of startups.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I enjoy, you know, being able to integrate into the team more like you would in-house, but also to have the flexibility um of being there for multiple companies that are, in my case, often more mission-oriented or or you know, with people and individuals who are trying to do something at least neutral to positive in the world.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I'm happy to have another call and talk more about me, but I want to get to you.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um so again, thank you so much for for everything you just just said.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's um it's a really nice way to start my day.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would love to start with asking you what led you to law school in the first place.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: So um really it was something that I already always knew I was gonna do.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: My older brother, uh nine years older, went to law school, became a lawyer.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: I always he was my mentor, the person I followed.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: We shared similar interests in sports and the like.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: So going to law school was kind of something I knew I was going to do.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um to sort of take it to the next step.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: My next decision was kind of a strange one.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um I grew up caddying at golf courses, the only job I've ever had, other than being a lawyer.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: I caddied all the way into law school starting in eighth grade.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I met a gentleman at the club where I caddy who had a law firm, and he hired me as his law clerk before I started law school, the summer before I started law school.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: I ended up graduating number one in my law school class.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: I then clerked in federal court, and anyone who graduated number one in the law school class and clerked in federal court would have gone into big law.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone did, all the other 16 clerks did.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um I did it.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: I returned to that same firm where I worked um in law school.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that was out of a sense of fear or loyalty and commitment because I was grateful for the opportunity he gave me.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I'm sort of taking it beyond your original question.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that's okay.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: But you're going exactly in the direction I was gonna go.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: But it ended up, uh, I mean, for a large part of my life, I questioned that decision.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: My best friend, uh law clerk, went with Piper.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Back in the day, it was called Piper and Marbury, and it was a Baltimore firm only, and now it's worldwide.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: And he remains an equity partner in Piper today, you know, just a completely different uh path.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I ended up leaving that firm after about two years, after I finished my clerk, because I really wanted to do litigation.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I joined a small boutique litigation firm, and it worked out great.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was trying cases in my first year.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there were two older partners, a generation older.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: I became a partner there after three years.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: And even then, and there was a partner nine years older than me who just was not into management.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't his skill set or desire.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: So as the youngest partner in the firm, I sort of started managing it in the mid-80s and continued to grow into owning it and managing it the rest of my career.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: So you practiced for 41 or so years, right?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then you moved on to become full-time a wellness coach for lawyers.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Can you walk me through what led to being a focused and you know high-performing attorney running a firm to first, you know, bringing on this wellness coaching, it looks like part-time, and then shifting your focus entirely to basically take care of lawyers.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: How'd you get there?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so kind of a personal part of my story, but really as part of it, is I I practiced law as an active alcoholic for about 11 years.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: I got sober in 1991, recently celebrated 34 years of sobriety.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: And um I worked with the lawyers' assistance program beginning shortly after I got sober, and then I chaired the committee in Baltimore County and was on the state um lawyer assistance committee.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And Baltimore County had the most active local committee.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: We would meet every month.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um folks would be referred to us, perhaps by a spouse, perhaps by a judge, perhaps by a partner.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: That is, they were anonymously reported to us that they might need help.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I love doing that work.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: There were several amazing stories of attorneys and judges whose lives were kind of saved through that work, but there wasn't enough.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: There weren't enough lawyers who um both needed help but were willing to accept help.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and and and it became a passion of mine to support lawyers.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um in 2021, I moved from Maryland to Pinehurst, North Carolina.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, had a home here, always loved the area.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's a golf area.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: I've been a golf nut most of my life.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we ended up coming here a couple years sooner than we planned on because of my wife got a great job here.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: She's a director of nursing.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And when I came here, I was still I owned my own firm.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was a majority partner.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: I transitioned the firm to the junior partner, became his, and I remained of council with an understanding that my commitment to the firm would reduce over time.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then earlier in this year, 2025, I uh stepped down from being of council.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was at most a part-time job, 20-25% of the time, and I had a lot of time on my hands.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought I could just play golf and relax, but it wasn't fulfilling.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized that that passion I had for helping lawyers went much further than helping those who were so far gone in either clinical depression or substance abuse that it was difficult to help them.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And the analogy I draw is earlier this year I planted some flowers, and when you plant them, you should give them water every day in the beginning, but I kind of forgot that part.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I went out one day and they looked awful, straggly, fallen over.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I drowned them with water, and some of them didn't make it, they were too far gone, and others were not too far gone, and they blossomed and flourished.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the analogy I draw of what I want to do.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: I want to help that lawyer who is struggling, um, limp, defeated, overwhelmed, and nurture him or her and help him to truly flourish.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I I love what I do.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Can you talk about, are you comfortable talking about what your experience as being a functioning alcoholic looked like, how it impacted your personal life, your your daily work life?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you were clearly, you said you were high functioning and and you were running a firm.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: Did people have awareness of what was going on with you?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: What what do you feel like led to this?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and what did your days look like?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if I can say what led to it.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of those mysteries.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm wired differently than other people.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and how it manifested itself mostly.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I did not miss any time from work.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I literally did not ever miss a single day from work being present at my desk.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I would be so hungover, um angry at myself, that I spend hours arguing with myself about needing to stop and I can't stop in that sort of cycle.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, didn't have internet in those days, hardly, to really escape on my phone.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Phones hadn't been invented yet.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, phones hadn't been, but not cell phones.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um I couldn't really escape into that.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think the biggest symptom to me was fear.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: It was overwhelming and irrational.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I was a trial lawyer, and it's very hard to try cases when you're full of fear.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: But my fear extended beyond that to irrational things.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't like to get the mail out of the mailbox.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, not much good comes in a mailbox anyway, but it's also not the end of the world stuff.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't, if you were an acquaintance of mine and I saw you walking down the street, even though we have a friendly relationship, I crossed the other side of the street so I wouldn't have to speak to you.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: I isolated a lot.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was very, very good at hiding it.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: To answer the question about who knew, no one really did.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: My parents probably did.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: My dad was sober, my mom was an Al-Anon for my dad.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think they knew, but I kept it very well hidden, um, other than alcoholism.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Not always, but often is a very secret and alone kind of thing.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what it was, you know, for me.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: And through my recovery, my whole obsession and compulsion was fairly quickly lifted.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I didn't do that.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: It it it's part of my program of recovery.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: And now I have no interest in alcohol and haven't for many, many years.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we can my wife and I can go out and have dinner with you and your spouse, and you guys could have a glass of wine.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: We wouldn't don't care.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Just don't care.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Just doesn't matter to us.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's an incredible miracle.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it really um transformed my practice.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: I then was full of faith instead of fear, hope instead of anxiety.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, all those negative emotions were replaced by positive ones, you know, tolerance, um, acceptance, gratitude, and and they influenced how I practiced law and how I ran my firm.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I write about a lot of the struggles that lawyers have in firms, and I'm blessed that I didn't experience a lot of those.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Not because I ran it, but just it wasn't our style.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: We were were truly a team.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, when I came down to when I signed off from my firm earlier this year, there were two staff people working for us, a part-time bookkeeper who'd been there since 1998, 27 years.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: And my paralegal started with us in the late 90s, but came back to be my she left for a couple years, came back.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: I need a paralegal and worked with me since 2008.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that's just the kind of place that you know that it was.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: The way you're describing your experience with alcohol um sounds to me, and correct me if I'm mistaken, like it it wasn't it.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people's stories who I that I I hear from, it feels very led by the legal industry and the expectations and things like that.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like with you, it was less perhaps about that, but connected and a lot.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um is that in an adequate way to describe or it's certainly true that the legal profession has overwhelmingly more mental health issues than any other profession.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you're probably familiar with the A Bay study.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm not familiar, I couldn't quote right now the exact figures, but something like 25% to 33% of lawyers self-reported as having a problem with substances.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: 11.9% had suicidal reported, they had suicidal thoughts in the prior year.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: So clearly, the legal profession creates stresses beyond what is typical in other professions, and they affect our mental health.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: I would not say that was my case, though.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think I got here all on my own.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, alcoholism runs in my family.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm just wired differently.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and really my practice the the two older gentlemen in my firm, Dick Lurch and Joe Hughesman, nicest people in the world.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, never any issues about money with anybody, or workload, or complaints.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: They were nice and gracious and kind.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I really didn't uh it's stressful being a trial lawyer, but um sometimes stressful dealing with worse, but my workplace was as healthy as any I've ever seen.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, at least there's that.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Did you find there to be one or two things that stood out from your recovery process that were most helpful or most immediately helpful?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I think the two characteristics that I think were helpful in the beginning and and a huge part of my life today are gratitude.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because often things in our life aren't what we want.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: There are a couple circumstances in my life now that are not at all what I want.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: But when I think of all I have to be grateful for, they pale in comparison.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and and the most important thing, I think it's really so helpful for lawyers, and and gratitude is for sure, but the other one is what I call acceptance.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many things in our life that we have no power over.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Things in politics, things in the world, things in the economy, things in our work environment.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: We may not like our managing partner, our client may be difficult, the other lawyer may be a jerk, but we have no power over those things.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um we can't, we can't control how our client speaks when he calls to us.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: We can try to manage it, we can try to respond appropriately and talk about the right way to say things, but the reality is we can't change other people's personalities or the circumstances.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: But so often we resist and focus on those very things that we don't like in our life.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: We think about how our partner is just too demanding and how our client's never happy, and how that lawyer doesn't keep his word and raises his voice.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: We think about those things and we magnify the stress they cause.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of saying, look, that's just what it is.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: How do I want to respond?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how do I want to respond to that difficult lawyer?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: How do I want to manage that client?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I don't want to represent the client anymore.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I need to set it back, whatever it might be.
• 22:00
  unknown: Be.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I think those are two characteristics I think are very, very helpful to the practicing lawyer.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: You had a really phenomenal post about uh having a panic attack in court that no one saw.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Can you talk about that and the impact it had on you?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it um and that was earlier in my career when I was still kind of developing some of these skills.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it had a lot to do with that fear that I felt.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and you can't be a you can't be a lawyer and go into court and be afraid.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I just felt overwhelmed.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And no one sees it, it's it's an internal feeling.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: But um some of the characteristics I've talked about now that I help my coaching clients with help them to manage those things without feeling such anxiety and fear and worry.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think we we all could use the improvements in all of those areas.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you also speak about uh mental prisons.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Can you talk about that?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote a book called Breaking Free, and I talk about the 12 prisons of our mind.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and for each of them, I give tools of how to overcome them.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess I picked 12 because it was a round number.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: It could have been 10, it could have been 15.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: But there are things like comparison, comparing ourselves to others, um, people pleasing, um, perfectionism, um, all three of which I suffered from particularly.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: When I was a kid, I was very, very heavy.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I wore nerdy glasses, I wasn't particularly athletic, and I was brilliant.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the combination of those made me disliked by everybody because no one likes a smart kid who makes their 68 look bad when the smart kid got a 98.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I grew up being bullied, picked on, not a wealth of friends, and so I grew up wanting to prove myself, wanting to be the best, um, so no one could criticize me, and people pleasing.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd act one way with you to curry your favor, act a different way with a different person to curry their favor.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: And um, for me, they were very prominent.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the other one that for trial lawyers that I highlight in there is um worrying about the outcome of cases or might be circumstances in our life.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: We have no control over the outcome, you know.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think of a health thing, I've been through a couple of health things, and and they're particularly hard because you you want to be healthy, you know, you don't want it to go the wrong way, but we we really are powerless over it except to do what's recommended, see the doctor get the test, whatever it might be.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: So in my book, I talk about those 12 mental prisons and ways to kind of manage them, perfectionism and people pleasing, and comparing and worrying about the future and being influenced by our past.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've learned how much my past um influenced how I behaved at certain times, um, like with people pleasing.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: How is how's your definition of success changed over time?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's interesting.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I think success, it might have had to do with a stage of my life.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in the beginning had a lot to do with stuff, not so much ostentatious stuff, but building a retirement account, you know, funding school, uh, making sure we had a nice home, um and just making those things bigger, um, you know, making the retirement account bigger.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and that was sort of where I was for most of my life.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I realize now it it's just completely different.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I'm at a stage in my life where I can't do a whole lot about where I am with stuff and financially, but more than that, it's how do I want to be remembered?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I love the book Everyday Legacy.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because it he was Cody Schoen wrote it.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: He actually was in the funeral industry, and then he was motivated to kind of look at his life, and how do I how do I want to be remembered?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what relationships do I want to have with my family members and my loved ones?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and and now that's my focus.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: How do I want to be remembered?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and I want to do things that are fulfilling.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: When I sort of stepped away from the practice, came here, I could I could play golf every day.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: I live in a beautiful place, a lot of golf courses, I belong to a nice place, but it it wasn't really fulfilling.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, nice to do now and then, but um, that's how I got into coaching because I want to be as helpful to other lawyers as I possibly can.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: I I want to help them overcome the many obstacles I've had to overcome in my career and teach them, show them, support them, wrap my arms around them, lift them to get to a place where they feel happy and fulfilled rather than stressed and overwhelmed.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: I want to dig into the happiness part.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think we we often, a lot of us tend to not really give a lot of uh thought to the role of happiness in our lives and in success.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: When did you start thinking about happiness and how has your view on happiness uh and its role in success also shifted over time?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's a good question about when, because it was a process rather rather than an event.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we're all we're always working process, we're always growing, we're always changing.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't know when, but um so I guess one thing that was another kind of transformation in my life.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: I spent the first 30 years doing mostly insurance defense work, although I handled some other litigation matters of my own choosing, mostly in the trucking industry.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I would represent trucking companies and truck drivers through specialized insurance.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: I liked it, I was good at it, but I got to a point where it just didn't do it for me.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't fulfilling.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what happened in my cases didn't make a huge difference to anybody.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was just a matter of, like Dick Lurch would say to me, it's only money and it's not our money.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and that was true.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: That was a great way to rationalize something that didn't work out right, but that's not really the view I wanted to have of what I wanted to do.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I moved into doing family law.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: I completely changed my area.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: I left doing that, and I became a divorce lawyer.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: And one of my primary motivations was well, there were a couple.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to choose who I could represent in insurance work.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: You have no power over who you represent.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I didn't want to represent a jerk.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: That was kind of my saying.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: I want to represent a jerk.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't matter who was right and wrong in the marriage.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want someone who's living in blame and attack and hurt and anger.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there are a lot of those feelings that I could help them get over.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I also just wanted to be of service.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to help my client who was full of fear and worry and uncertainty get clarity and get to a place where they were safe and comfortable and happy and free of whatever the problems were in the marriage.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I switched to that and I found that very fulfilling.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized now when I started coaching, I never ever have a bad day coaching.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: I never have a day that is stressful.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Never.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: I've not felt a stress um since I started doing this.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Everything is positive.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking to you about this today is fun, it's enjoyable, it's freeing.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Working with a lawyer is that way.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, writing a chapter for a book or writing a blog or having my own podcast are enjoyable.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: And none of it is stressful.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's all fulfilling because even if I don't work with someone, I'm doing whatever I can to be of service to them.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Every time I talk to someone through LinkedIn, I say, what can I do to help or serve you, support you with where you are?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, they usually say nothing.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I just say, look, I want you to keep in touch if I can ever be of support to you.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just very fulfilling.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think that many of us, when we get out of law school, choose our first job based on what has the best name, biggest name, biggest paycheck.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not illogical.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: We work hard to get a good class rating to get a nice job offer.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: And when we get that job offer from the largest, we we pick usually the firm that's the largest that pays the most is where we start.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that may not be a bad decision initially, but we may find five or six years later we're miserable.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and the problem is we didn't really think about what our values are.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: What do we really want?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: And there are a lot of different values that are important.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: It could be prestige, it could be power, it could be income, it could be independence, autonomy, flexibility.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, my decision to go to that small firm in hindsight was absolutely the right one because I wanted independence and autonomy.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I was given cases, they were mine to handle.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: I tried a case in my very first year there.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: That wouldn't happen in other firms.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: So for those who are feeling stuck or unhappy, my question is, what do you do this week that makes you feel energized, that you like doing?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Find a way to do more of that.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: What is it you did this week that you can't stand that annoys you, that frustrates you?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Find a way to do less of that.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe that means you need to work in a different place.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think you recently started your own firm, and I've developed sort of a niche helping unhappy lawyers develop their own firm.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: I've had three lawyers recently who've left their firm and I've helped them create their own firm.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing is more fulfilling to me than that, because they have found the freedom to make the firm what they want it to be with their set of values, um, and they've developed the flexibility in their schedule to be with their kids or whatever it might be that's important.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe help help an older parent.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and it's just that's very, very fulfilling.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, for those of you who feel stuck, think about what your values are.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: What is really important to you?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: What would you like if you could create your dream five years from now?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you want to be?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: And set up a plan to make that happen.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because you can.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: You can.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: With all of the coach, the lawyers that you coach, do you find that there are a couple of factors that stand out as being kind of a common denominator amongst you know those in our industry that often stops us from doing the thing that we kind of know would make us happier or that we we do want to do, but we're terrified, or we don't know how to set the boundaries, or we're afraid of you know the external expectations.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Or does anything stand out to you across the board?
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think many, many lawyers are overwhelmed, but they're hesitant to, I guess one is financial.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they might be in a in big law or in a good-sized firm make a really nice salary that their family needs, or at least as they develop, they need that salary.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the first step to doing something else, if you move in-house, typically you make less money, not always.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you work for the government, you pretty much always make less money.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: And if you create your own firm, it takes a while for it to take off.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that's part of it, what some people call the golden handcuffs, I guess.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing is fear, um, lack of confidence, worry, um, thinking, you know, how can I create my own, you know, my own firm?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: And where will my clients come from?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: I did family law, I coach a family lawyer now, and she always says, you know, I don't know who I'll be representing in three years, because whoever I'm representing now won't be representative in three years.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: The divorce cases tend to not repeat.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and so, you know, but I said, look, you know, I don't know who they'll be, but you will have a full book of clients three years from now, just be different clients.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's just how it works.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and so I think a lot of it's fear, money, and not knowing how to create a firm.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's where I come in.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: I show them how to create the firm.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: I help them set up systems.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I when I work with my clients, I don't um have a set plan, I don't have a set module.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's no right way to run a firm.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: There are some companies out there who support lawyers in managing firms, but they have a program.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is how you're to do it.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is how we do it, this is how you should do it.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's not me.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: I try to figure out what my client wants their practice to look like, and then I help them create it.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: How do you help your clients learn how to set and maintain boundaries?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's a common discussion.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we are in the service business, and I think sometimes we get carried away with being of service to our clients.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like you wouldn't call your doctor and expect your doctor to answer the phone.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's okay.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: We don't need him to answer the phone.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: We can talk to the nurse or the support staff and say, can you, this is my concern?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: Can you have someone get back to me?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that's understood.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: But in our profession, we feel like every time the phone rings, we have to answer it.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: And technology has become an amazing gift, but it's really become a prison of its own because I knew I suffered from this.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Once email came into existence, I was I was hooked.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: And if you sent me an email, no matter how important I was working on it, once I saw that email, I was going to answer it.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'd interrupt what I was doing all the time to answer it.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: And um, a lot of that comes from setting boundaries.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I did a course recently on productivity, and I asked the lawyers in the room, how many times do you look at your email in a day?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: And the number was like 50, you know.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was just it was crazy.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: I said, why not look at it three times in a day?
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Look at it 11, 2, and 4:30.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what email comes through that is so urgent it can't wait an hour for you to look at it.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you're trying a case, you're in a mediation, you're in a client meeting, you wouldn't be looking at your email or you shouldn't.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so, and obviously it can wait, but we we've gotten bad habits of looking at it all the time.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: So part of it is training ourselves, part of it's training our clients.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I encourage uh my clients who set up their own firm if you talk to your client, tell them this up front.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very devoted to you, I'm very devoted to my other clients.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I need periods of focused work to work on your file and their files.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so I will not be available to answer your phone calls whenever they come in or to answer your emails whenever they come.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: What I promise you is I will answer them uh the same day.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: I will get back to you.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, great.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you even I even encourage having a time of day, like say 10:30 when you return emails and calls, and then maybe 2:30 when you return emails and calls.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: You can actually train them to expect the call back at one of those two times.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it really works.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: But everyone's afraid to do that.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I shifted to having an approach more like what you're describing, so much changed for me.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember being part of environments where it felt like, you know, we were in competition to be the first one to respond.
• 37:52
  unknown: Right.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I have to tell you, your the quality of your response when you're racing for it is just not going to be as good as if you're focused, not doing other things, and you know, you're not overloaded and overwhelmed.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: So true.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: So true.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: Are there other things that you find when you're able to get your lawyer clients um uh kind of to a certain point with coaching where you find that you know, if you can get them over a certain kind of hurdle, they just start to soar.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I I coached a young woman, defense lawyer who was one or two years into her practice.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the first time we just had a connect call, she wasn't my client.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: I just asked her a couple innocent, not intrusive questions, and she teared up.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, what's going on?
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: And she just told me she was full of fear and anxiety and stress.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: We worked together for only six months.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the last call I had with her, I said, How are you doing today?
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: She smiled, she laughed, she said, I'm wonderful.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: She was an entirely different person.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, part of it is um, I as a coach help my clients see in them their positive traits that sometimes they lose sight of.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we're so hard on ourselves, we see only our weaknesses and our failures.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: And part of it is not really giving ourselves and enough compliments for all the good things we do.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: But it just was amazing the transition her, you know, a lawyer would send her a nasty email and she'd fall apart.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: A partner would say something constructive, not really nasty, and it would it would bother her.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: And she realized to take all those in stride.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: When you were practicing, were you as comfortable as you are now being so open and vulnerable about perfectionism and imposter syndrome and you know, making mistakes and all these sorts of things that I think a lot of us, I certainly had to grow into being open about that stuff.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: Did it come easily to you?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: Or it did not actually.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think um the real growth since I started coaching was uh being more vulnerable.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, I shared with people one-on-one about my recovery as part of my recovery service.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: But other than that, my ego was such I wanted to look, like so many lawyers do, I wanted to look like I had it all together.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: And and um and I and I didn't.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: I've never had it all together.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: I still don't have it all together.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I've learned in my coaching that I want my clients to be transparent, authentic with me, because that's the only way it works.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I owe it to them to be as transparent as I can.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I I know I I went to a last church we went to when I lived in Baltimore, they would always preach from a position of humility and their own failures and what they did to overcome them.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a much better way to convey a message than to say, well, Ariola, this is how you ought to do it.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's better to say, this is what I did wrong, and this is how I fixed it.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then you say, oh, well, maybe that would work for me too, without me being preachy.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I think being transparent and authentic is something I've really learned only in recent years because my ego was such it was hard for me to do that.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: That makes a lot of sense.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's for me, it's in it's particularly helpful and valuable to look at other people who um, you know, have sort of made it, if you will, in whatever way that looks for that individual.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: And to hear from them how they've made mistakes and how they've gotten through them.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's so much more helpful than just looking at someone and wondering, man, how do they do that so perfectly without any floundering?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't help anyone.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and actually one of the one of the uh exercises that I'll sometimes go through is I I enjoy, I find it beneficial to acknowledge and take in when someone I respect or someone senior to me or someone who you know looks quote unquote successful, uh, I'll note when they've done something imperfect and I'll recognize for myself, wow, I don't care.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um if you could, if you had a magic wand and you could change one thing in an instant about how the legal industry operates, what would you change?
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: More of a focus on on wellness and and having workplaces where they honor um the personal needs of the people who work for them.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, there's some firms who've been created like that, um, where they recognize people need flexible schedules, whether it's due to children or activities or training for a marathon, whatever it might be, and and create a sense of team instead of competition, collaboration instead of competition.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think our industry's done made steps towards recognizing wellness, uh, but we're so far to go, and it often doesn't penetrate into the law firm.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um some of the leaders of our some of the traits that make us great lawyers make us terrible leaders.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: Supreme confidence, um, not questioning ourselves, um being invincible, whereas a good leader is is humble and open and authentic and accepts responsibility and doesn't live in blame or attacking or things like that.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not easy to be a very good lawyer and a very good leader, um, but it is possible.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting point.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: So for those lawyers who have those skills and that helps them to really operate well in their practice, and they want to be A good leader, how would you help them, you know, make those steps to be able to really do both and um and manage those skills, but in different ways depending on the context?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that's exactly it.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: If if you go to the courtroom, you have to come across one way.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you're running your firm, you have to come across a different way.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: But but to be honest with you, I think uh humility and authenticity, that that would end up being my style in the courtroom.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I at times tried to emulate the real aggressive attorney.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: That just wasn't me.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I found my honest, authentic approach actually worked very well because juries liked it.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the thought we have to be is powerful and invincible isn't really true.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think our clients like authenticity.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's okay to tell a client, well, I'm not sure.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let me let me look into that.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: I gotta tap into someone else and find the answer because I'm not sure what the next best step would be.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Clients aren't offended at that.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: They're not gonna think we're stupid attorneys.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: They think, well, you know, I appreciate that.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's I think such a critical point because, you know, we are sort of trained and led to believe that we're supposed to be all-knowing and always have the answers, even if we've never seen this fact pattern before.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's a new, you know, and we're we're so concerned of is anyone gonna think I'm stupid, whether it's colleagues or clients.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, certainly I know when I go to a doctor and they say I don't know, I think, oh, I can I can trust you.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well said.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: Same same thing with lawyers.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: We we gotta get better at that.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, are there any particular um well-being practices that you uh uh engage in on a daily basis, a regular basis, that just help you show up the way you want to?
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: I know you talked about you know things like gratitude.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in terms in terms of gratitude, I have all my clients uh do a couple things.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: The first is for 30 days, write down, and then when you wake up in the morning, three things you're grateful for, but you can't repeat them.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: So you can't have a nice dog.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: My husband's wonderful.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: You can't repeat those.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: So after 20 days, you've written down 60 things and you're having a hard time coming up with the 61.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so what you do instead is you go through your life looking for things that day you can be grateful for.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: And when you go through life searching for something good, you'll be in a much better place.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: I also have clients every day at the end of the day, write down the things that day that went well, the people that supported them, helped them, said something nice, things they did well.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because too often we go to bed thinking of all our troubles and our stresses.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe in visualization before a difficult client meeting, emotion, hearing, whatever it might be to try to visualize a successful result.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like a diver who stands on the board for 15 seconds before they dive, they aren't falling asleep, they're getting their focus, trying to visualize the perfect spin and turn and twist and entry so that they can perform better.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I also believe in breathing.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm not an expert in it, but I know when I'm under stress, if I take some deep breaths, sort of close my eyes and get reconnected with the present versus anxiety about the future, I'm in a better place.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing advice.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything else you'd like to share?
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: No, I just I'm grateful for you for you know having this opportunity, inviting me to join you, and and grateful that our profession is is coming along.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I'm certainly with you on the gratitude for you know our profession moving in the right direction and really grateful to be able to, you know, for all of us who believe that we can bring you know wellness and well-being into law, that we're finding each other.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's so many more of us out there, and the bigger we understand our community to be, the easier it's gonna be for everybody, and the more progress we will make.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for being here, for talking to me, and also just for all of the work you're doing, spreading your wisdom around and and um and guiding lawyers to be able to build healthy practices.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: We need it.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Ariel.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: I really, really appreciate it.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and thank you for all the good work you do as well.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you for having this amazing podcast.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: All right, take care.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you got a ton of value from this conversation, and that you will check out the links in the description to learn more about the guest and the wellness esquire.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope you take even just one minute to do something for yourself today.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe right now.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: Drink more water, say no, call a friend, do something that makes you happy, have a 30 second dance party, find something to make you laugh.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: Also, be sure to subscribe and send the podcast to a colleague.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: And if we're not yet connected on LinkedIn, please fix that.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to know you.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: See you next time.