Latest / Bookies' Favourite / Ghost Driver by Nell Osborne, published by Moist Books | Review | Queen Mary Small Press Fiction Prize 2026

Transcript

Ghost Driver by Nell Osborne, published by Moist Books | Review | Queen Mary Small Press Fiction Prize 2026 · Bookies' Favourite

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Hello, hello, welcome to the club bookies favorite book club.
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We read literary shortlists and award-winning novels.
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We're currently reading the Queen Mary Small Press Fiction
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Prize shortlist, an award that recognizes the art of literature
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and promotes works of high merit which have been published in the
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UK and Ireland. This episode we are discussing
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Ghost Driver by Nell Osborne and published by Moist Books which
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come on as soon as it is grabbing as a publisher.
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I'm broadcast journalist Aaron Rice.
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I never saw my my surname. Well, there you go.
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You have my surname this time. And I I am flirting with a
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waitress. So you.
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AM. I on form.
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I read this book very fast and I I well, I did break it up and,
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but I basically read most of it today for I started on like page
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30 today and and read the next 140 pages.
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I did skim a decent amount of it until it got to the institution
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and then I kind of had to slow down.
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I wasn't a fan of the most of this book until it got to that
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part. How can you say that if you skim
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read it to a point? No, because I I was still
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reading it but I like each paragraph I would get like 3
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lines in and be like OK she's just droning on and on about the
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same thing here. So then I would like skim it and
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then jump to the next paragraph. Like I still understood what was
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happening but I was like OK I don't need.
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Point of reading a book, you could read the Wikipedia article
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about the plot of it. I still, I don't know well, I
2:03
still read the book like I still read every paragraph.
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I just there were parts where I was like, OK, I get the point
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and this isn't exciting for me. If I'm going to complete this
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book, I if I will bore myself to death if I read every single
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word, every single line, word for word, I still read every
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line. I just skimmed it.
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Trust me, I have skimmed other books and it hasn't worked.
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This book I was able to skim up until the institution I.
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Don't understand how you know that though, Like how you can
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say for certain. I'm still excited to jump into
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this conversation. I guess the final point I'll say
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on that is I found the writing was very, it was very easy to
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read. This is probably one of the
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easiest books that I have read. Umm, which is a compliment, but
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I think it then also assisted me in my skimming at points.
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I didn't skim every single thing, but at points.
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Introduce yourself. Umm, I want everyone to know
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who's who's challenging me. I'm Lucy and I'm just currently
3:12
drinking a cup of tea with a slug in it.
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Oh, that's a good one. Be prepared to throw up later.
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Or did she throw up after that? I can't.
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Don't remember throw up and you know why that bit stuck with me
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so much so. Oh.
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No, don't tell me this happened. To you.
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No, no, no, it did not happen to me.
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I don't think I'd be talking about it if it happened to me.
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I would be getting therapy for that.
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But she so like the girl in the book.
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Mallory. Mallory.
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She swallows a slug and she quite traumatized but she's very
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ill. But she describes it like going
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down her throat and being like really slimy, right?
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Yeah. So a couple of months ago I my
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kitten she was kind of going out for the first time into like the
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garden and she eat a slug and the signs coming from her mouth
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for the next like 6 hours were like exactly how they she
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describes. It was disgust every time she
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like licked she was just constantly licking her lips and
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it was like you could really you could hear the slime and it was
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probably one of the most disturbing songs.
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What's going to happen to her? I don't think she properly ate
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it. I think she was walking around
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with it in her mouth. Frages I.
4:33
Wasn't 100%. Sure, what happened because she
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didn't get ill I'll from it and apparently, but she was fine.
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But this so I I read that with just trauma and horror.
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I quite enjoyed the writing and I think this is kind of there's
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a lot of kind of similar books, not similar books this, but a
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lot of books that kind of deal with similar issues.
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And I think in the last kind of couple of years, I've read a lot
5:00
of books maybe that are not too dissimilar to the the themes
5:04
that come up in in this book. I think this is actually, on
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balance, definitely one of the better versions of that kind of
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book that I, I don't know if it would be the massively like the
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kind of book I would gravitate towards.
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But I did think it was pretty well written and I did actually
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really enjoy it. And I still don't think I really
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fully understand it. And also it mixes all, it mixes
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a lot of genres. So I don't really know.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Well, we'll see. We'll see.
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To start us off, here is a quote from.
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Ghost Driver. The antidote was stoicism.
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It was mindless positivity. It was letting the institution
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inside, metabolising the rules as one's own innermost thoughts
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and dreams. Spoiler warning from this point
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onwards, If you haven't read the book yet and you're planning to
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come back to this discussion after you've done so, it's.
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Kind of a strange one because it's I think the timeline
5:59
doesn't necessarily seem to flow perfectly, but basically it's
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about a woman called Mallory who's in her mid 30s and she's
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navigating her work life, which is she works for the institution
6:12
who seem to own a lot of buildings in the area and seem
6:15
to be quite far reaching. But it seems quite futuristic
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and quite creepy. The institution.
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And she is at times in this book going out with a guy called
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John, who is is bit older than her and who also works for the
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institution. And she has a friend called
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Ellie who she sometimes chats to.
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I'm trying to think like, how do you describe what happens I.
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Think I think probably the best way to describe it is that it's
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almost like a coming of age story for a woman in her 30s
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while also dealing with self esteem and like mental health.
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Yeah, I guess so. I it's it's a strange, it's a
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strange book. It says in the back part Horror
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Story. And I think there is definitely
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parts of it where I'm like, oh, OK, what's going on here?
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This is freaky deals with, I guess, issues for women in
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modern life through Malory, who is maladjusted to some degree.
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And I suppose one of the things with the book is you don't
7:19
realize how much of this is kind of her doing or how much of it
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is actually the outside world and things that are happening to
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her. She often at times is an
7:27
unreliable narrator as well, which is kind of a bit of a
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trope, I think, with these types of books.
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I did, actually. I like the way it was done.
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It seems like a lot of it is Mallory examining her own life
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and her own relationships and trying to find out where she
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fits in the world. While at the same time we're not
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100% sure what is happening in her mind, what is happening in
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her dreams, what is actually happening.
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And there's a few like things that seem to and there's a few
8:02
threads throughout that keep we keep circling back to or or keep
8:07
dropping hints back to previous stuff.
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And so to me, basically the entire story is about this woman
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living her life and kind of how she's how women are treated by
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men and how women are treated by systems.
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So whether that's like big businesses and how they treat
8:32
women as employees and kind of disregard them, give them like
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menial tasks that aren't really of any worth while.
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Also, like health systems disregarding them whenever they
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have concerns about their body and what's happening to them and
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at the same time, constantly feeling like you are or like,
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again, I'm not a woman. I don't want to be pretending
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that that I can identify with these.
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But just based off this book, I also get the sense that there's
9:09
almost this fear of men of, you know, you live in the world with
9:14
them. But she's always being like
9:18
watched by them. She's always there's like this
9:25
one and community like volunteer police officer that seems to
9:31
show up randomly and like is like haunting her down like
9:35
hunting and haunting. So to me, the entire thing was
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just basically like the kind of struggles that that women deal
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with. I don't know if you agree you
9:45
you have a better viewpoint on this than I do.
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I think you are, yeah. It's kind of very much this, I
9:51
guess, issues that maybe would be more likely to be faced by
9:55
women. Definitely.
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I think you, you were talking about the, is it the volunteer
9:59
police officer? So it's, it seems like the areas
10:02
that are like run by the institution have like their own
10:05
volunteer police force, which doesn't seem to be regulated and
10:08
doesn't seem to be like an actual police force.
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And she's kind of the start of the story.
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And this is something that we were kind of discussing earlier
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about the confusion on the timeline is that it starts and
10:18
it is mentioned in the blurb as well, which is kind of added to
10:21
the confusion. So it starts off where she's
10:24
leaving a pub and it's when she's in a relationship with
10:27
this guy John, because she's going back to him, though.
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How can we be sure when she's such an unreliable narrator?
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But she basically is getting scared walking home, which I
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think isn't a normal natural, maybe a natural response for for
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women to feel. And, and this volunteer
10:46
placement kind of comes out of the shadows and he's quite
10:49
creepy with the way he's getting on with her.
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And I had a such a so I actually was pretty.
10:54
I didn't like that part. I found it really creepy and it
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really reminded me of do you remember in, was it locked on
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your? There was a girl, Sarah Everard,
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Like the minute I was like, so this, this girl in London was
11:12
this, this police officer who was a real police officer.
11:15
So this police officer told, told her that she wasn't, she
11:19
was this ban COVID drills and handcuffed her and took her in,
11:23
put him in, put her in his car and raped and killed her.
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And really that image really that she kind of portrayed
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really reminded me of that. And I remember because that was
11:33
such a like during lockdown, it was such a stark moment.
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I was like, it really freaked me out.
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It was horrible. It really reminded me of that.
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And I, I felt the genuine like fear for this woman, like
11:44
walking home alone. And I think actually probably
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technically walking home alone as a man might be more
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dangerous. But I think it's so prevalent in
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our media and everything that you I suppose as well, I think
11:54
you could have this horrific death like this really horror
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like this, like that. What happened to her is
12:00
horrific, like, and she was taken, you know, doesn't bear
12:04
thinking about it. I think that that kind of idea
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that that could happen to you just on someone else's whim, you
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know? From what you're saying, I do
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completely understand that. Yeah, it's that is an added
12:16
extra fear. Like I didn't even think about
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that aspect of it. I just thought, oh, there's like
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kind of a creepy man. Because she talks about how the
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root is known for men to basically flash you when you're
12:35
like walking along it. And so I thought that it was
12:38
going to be something like that, maybe like sexual assault or
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something. Which I'm not saying sexual
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assault is any less bad than murder, but I didn't even think
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of the murder aspect in, in terms of all of this.
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But yeah, no, I, I, I think that that adds another layer on to
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all of the experiences that Mallory kind of personifies of
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as, as being a woman. Yeah, she seems to always fear
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like a shadowy man or like a ghost almost.
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That seems to kind of come up in and out of like her kind of
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fears. Why do you think it's called
13:14
ghost driver? Oh, I was thinking about this.
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So I kind of almost feel like she doesn't think she's in the
13:22
driving seat of her own life. She's kind of going along with
13:27
all these things and I kind of, yeah, you just get the the sense
13:31
of like, she really wants to be seen and she really wants to be
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like accepted in certain ways and she isn't.
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And I don't think she knows why or who she is.
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I think that that makes sense that yeah, she, she's a ghost
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driver. She's not in control of her her
13:47
own autonomy or her life or she is, but she just feels like
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she's maybe on a track. And I think that that is
13:55
exemplified whenever she talks about her work and how her work
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is of no use. She's given titles that don't
14:02
mean anything, and the work that she does, no one checks and it's
14:08
already been duplicated by someone else.
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And so, yeah, I think it shows that she doesn't really the lack
14:16
of impact that she feels like she has on the world.
14:19
Have you ever seen Severance? No, but this did make me think
14:23
of severance just based off what I know.
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It's not like, I mean, if you're a fan of Severance, it doesn't
14:29
necessarily mean you're going to be a fan of this.
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There was just one aspect. Well, there's obviously like the
14:33
fact you don't really know what you're doing in your job, but
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there was something else that really reminded me of I have
14:38
only seen like a season and a half of Severance.
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I struggled to watch things fully.
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So sorry. It was fine, I enjoyed it, I did
14:47
enjoy it, but I just couldn't be bothered watching the rest of
14:49
it. But there's a lot of paintings
14:50
in the corridors, and it really reminded me of when she's like
14:55
going past all these different works of art and all, and I was
14:57
like this. This just sounds exactly like
14:59
the Severance. How interesting.
15:01
What did you think of the insects and the bugs and the
15:04
creepy crawlies? Because they seem to come up a
15:06
good amount throughout it. Well, obviously there's the
15:09
slug. Yes, her.
15:12
Wood lights. She really likes wood slate.
15:15
I just call them Slaters. I don't know.
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Yeah, yeah, Slaters. Is that like an Irish thing?
15:19
A Northern Irish thing. I think so, yeah.
15:21
Yeah. Or I know in America because
15:24
Jake, who I host the novel series with, I was trying to
15:28
explain to him that this book is about a woman who identifies
15:31
with what? What lice?
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And he was like, what are those? And then whenever I explained
15:35
them, he was like, oh, Roly polys.
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And yeah, that's just what they call them.
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That's quite cute, Slater is. Really random it is.
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Is it because they're under Slate?
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Kind of look like Slate. Yeah.
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I, I, I kind of relate to her. I really liked insects when I
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was a kid. So like I could see me having a
15:53
little if my mom would let me having a little wood lice, house
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wood lice. There's a part where she gets
15:58
obsessed with a family. She talks with this big fly,
16:01
it's like every time she's on her own, there's a big fly comes
16:03
up and starts whacking itself against her right.
16:06
Yeah, I don't think she. Really mentioned that much
16:08
after, maybe you might have. Noticed.
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I feel like all of these things are just like temporary but she
16:14
always seems to Not always, but often seems to how make some
16:19
note of insects. I'm trying to think there.
16:22
There definitely are other insects mentioned at other
16:24
points. I really like when she's
16:26
talking. So she she has to go to the
16:28
therapist because of the big fly because she started screaming at
16:31
it in work, right? And she's kind of like logically
16:35
through that, she believes that her therapist is an employee of
16:38
the big fly because the only reason the therapist has a job
16:42
is because of the big. So she kind of has this weird
16:44
conspiracy about the fly being some kind of malevolent, like,
16:49
controlling character, like almost like it's the head of the
16:52
institution. Let's talk about the institution
16:55
because she eventually spends an entire chapter, which I mean,
17:00
these chapters are literally like 1 to 4 pages long.
17:04
They're they're very short. But this one specific chapter
17:08
about the institution is maybe like 12 pages long, which then
17:12
felt like a slog link through in comparison because I was like,
17:15
why is this chapter so long? She showed up to the
17:19
institution, went into a room and there was a panel of four
17:25
men, three men, I don't remember how many.
17:27
Also, not necessarily men. Exactly because she also has
17:32
this thing where she keeps talking about men or very
17:34
womanly, and then it kind of blends into where she's like,
17:39
oh, is it a man or is it a woman?
17:40
But it always starts as being a man because even her boyfriend
17:45
slash ex-boyfriend John, she starts describing him as being
17:49
very womanly. When Ellie's introduced, we then
17:51
also get introduced to the fact that the two of them like we're
17:55
kissing each other one night for the not.
17:57
When Ellie's introduced, she made a very brief appearance at
18:01
the start. Oh, does she?
18:04
So basically, your girl Mallory is like her.
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Her therapist tells her that she's disturbed and Mallory,
18:15
like, really clings to this. And she's like.
18:18
Oh yes. She like messages, emails, all
18:21
her friends going. I'm apparently very disturbed
18:23
because she's like totally clung to this thing and then nobody
18:26
messages her back except for Ellie who just goes.
18:29
That's everyone nowadays. Yeah, because from Ellies point
18:32
of view, she's probably like, oh, how do I make this better
18:36
for my friend who has just been diagnosed as being very
18:39
disturbed? Let me tell her that like
18:42
everyone is basically like that. So like she's not really that
18:46
different or, or odd or not normal in quotation marks.
18:52
And then that kind of almost drives a like a female head
19:02
butt. I don't know how to describe it,
19:04
but I am just through media, I kind of get told that women are
19:11
always trying to one up each other and have this like, even
19:14
if you're friends with another woman, you have this like
19:16
conflict with them. So I got that sense between the
19:21
two of them where she was like, why is Ellie trying to like take
19:27
away my individuality? And the fact that I have been
19:31
told that I'm very disturbed, like she's stealing my limelight
19:35
kind of thing. Her relationship with with with
19:38
Ellie is is very strange. It's.
19:41
Like but it's her only friend. Yeah, I, yeah, I think so.
19:45
I think definitely some of the stuff with Ellie just doesn't
19:47
just totally make sense to me because like there's the whole
19:50
dream thing where Ellie just like I have to see you
19:54
immediately. I have this dream where your
19:58
boyfriend, kind of almost ex-boyfriend at this point, John
20:02
is like torturing you and like doing all these weird things.
20:07
And Mallory's kind of just sitting there being like, I
20:08
don't really want to talk about this.
20:10
And she like, you have to meet me right now.
20:12
We have to discuss this. And Mallory trying to change the
20:14
subject and try and act cool and be like, oh, that sounds weird.
20:19
You're describing all these things to me.
20:20
But then. Eventually Mallory is like, we
20:23
need to stop talking about this because you're actually
20:25
affected. It's so strange.
20:26
I don't understand Ellie as a character at all.
20:29
There's a lot of people I don't understand in this book.
20:31
I kind of get the suggestion that Ellie has a thing for
20:36
Mallory because of the kissing thing.
20:38
They seem to be doing it for a man and the graphic designer.
20:44
Didn't get the vibe that they were I really.
20:48
Didn't. Well, he was watching them.
20:50
He was there, but that was kind of incidental.
20:53
I didn't get the feeling. It was like, oh.
20:56
He's for his pleasure. Yeah, no, I didn't, because it
20:58
started when he wasn't there. Oh, OK.
21:02
Well, I I got it that he was sitting in the room and he was
21:07
visibly aroused. Yeah, but I didn't.
21:09
Think it was because of like I don't think that they were doing
21:13
that because of it wasn't. Because of him.
21:16
I don't think. Do you know what you're saying
21:19
Then? Definitely makes sense because
21:20
she leaves and it would make sense if she then left because
21:26
the man was there and has kind of intruded.
21:31
I kind of got the feeling that he was almost.
21:35
So this is how I felt about it. I got the feeling that he was
21:38
kind of incidental to it. And I got the feeling that
21:41
Malorie was like, I don't like where this is going.
21:45
She didn't want to go any further with it, but she didn't
21:47
want to have a conversation. So then she kind of makes an
21:50
excuse and try to get a taxi. But then I think I got the vibe
21:54
from the writing. I don't know if this is me
21:56
putting two and two together and getting 4, but I got the vibe
21:59
that the reason that they were that it was important to point
22:01
out that he was aroused was the fact that she's just left her
22:04
friend in a bed with this man. Yes, you.
22:08
Know and left without saying so. Her friend Ellie doesn't know
22:13
and they never discuss it again. But it is kind of like you would
22:16
feel some level of guilt. That's not a nice thing to do.
22:19
You left this person in a situation that is extremely
22:21
uncomfortable for them and we don't.
22:23
I think. Ellie has any interest in this
22:25
man? Yeah.
22:27
I'm. I'm a matching that was in
22:28
Ellie's position. That would be horrible.
22:31
It would be a horrible thing for someone to do to you.
22:33
I could be completely jumping here, but because Ellie's having
22:38
these dreams about Mallory being like maybe sexually tortured or
22:43
assaulted by her boyfriend, could that be a reflection of
22:47
what Mallory did to Ellie by leaving her with this graphic
22:50
designer do? You know what, I really think
22:53
that that's really interesting because it's not something that
22:56
I would have thought of because I don't see what the relevance
22:59
of Ellie telling all this to Mallory is.
23:02
And that gives that some amount of relevance.
23:05
So I, I think you might be on something there with that,
23:07
because I think that that could make a lot of sense of why she's
23:11
like, you urgently need to know this.
23:14
And I think that Malory maybe isn't able to put those pieces
23:16
together, but maybe Malory should be.
23:20
I think she in her kind of mind is maybe seeing the the thing
23:24
that she's done to Ellie as being like, oh, it was awkward
23:28
and there's a taboo about them getting together and she's kind
23:33
of wilfully making that much bigger and trying to forget the
23:38
thing that actually was the worst, worst thing that she did.
23:42
Like they're leaving her in this vulnerable position was actually
23:47
a bad thing. And then the idea that they
23:49
can't have that conversation with each other where Ellie
23:52
can't express that to her because it would be a really
23:55
difficult thing to deal with that.
23:56
Like if, say, if my friend did that, I don't think that a
23:58
friend of mine wouldn't necessarily mean to have caused
24:01
you that harm, but they have caused you that harm.
24:03
And it's like, how do you have that conversation with them
24:05
where you're like, something really bad's happened here?
24:08
It's kind of down to you in some level, but you don't want to be
24:11
like, it's not their fault 100%. It's just a really horrible
24:14
situation. I don't know.
24:16
But yeah, we could be reading away too much into this, but I
24:18
think that makes a lot of sense. What did you think about a
24:21
relationship with John? I thought it was fun.
24:25
Fun. Oh, OK, elaborate.
24:27
I'm curious. She just constantly talks about
24:30
it being fun. She's like, like she uses it
24:34
like ever. Honestly, every time they
24:35
describe like her relationship with John, she's just like, and
24:39
it was fun and it always had to be fun.
24:41
And like she, she goes on and on about like, like they kind of
24:45
have a conversation with each other and they're like, we'll do
24:47
this and it'll be fun. And he's always like, that's be
24:50
fun, you know, and, and you kind of get the idea that he's kind
24:53
of molding her into being like, don't complain about anything.
24:56
Don't do anything like. Don't be you it'll.
24:59
Be you because we're just having fun and you get that kind of get
25:02
more manic with her as far as our relationship goes in.
25:05
There's definitely a couple of really good quotes where she's
25:07
like, yeah, just talking about how fun she is and like how fun
25:11
their relationship is and it doesn't sound fun.
25:14
Well. Yeah, it feels like she's almost
25:16
trying to convince herself that. I think she's trying to convince
25:20
him because I think that she's got to the point where it's
25:23
like, doesn't matter if it's fun for her.
25:26
It's like like this is when it's kind of ending and she's like,
25:29
it'll still be fun. It'll be even more fun than
25:32
before. And then she's like later on the
25:34
page, she's like, I felt the letters that she wrote must be
25:37
fun with a fun tonality and a fun subject matter.
25:42
It's like she's constantly being like, this is fun.
25:44
This is fun and like even from the start of the relationship
25:47
she's like she's obviously trying to keep it light hearted.
25:49
And I kind of put the vibe of, I don't know if you've ever read
25:52
Gone Girl. No, but I've seen the movie.
25:55
I haven't, I don't think I've seen the movie, but basically
25:59
one of the things that happens in it is like the the wife feels
26:03
really like disenfranchised when she finds out her husband's
26:06
having an affair because she was always trying to be this fun,
26:09
cool girl. And her whole thing was like, I
26:13
did all the cools, like I did everything.
26:14
I made your life easy. I didn't nag you.
26:16
I didn't do all these things that are like normal women of
26:20
the time, you know, kind of things.
26:21
She's very like, I was always cool.
26:23
I was always, it's almost like that kind of fun thing.
26:26
And it's like, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter.
26:29
Like it's irrelevant. And that's kind of the the
26:31
breakdown she has. And you kind of feel like
26:35
Malorie doesn't get that. Like she's not, she doesn't
26:39
become like awakened, like the woman in Gone Girl who obviously
26:43
goes that far with her. But it's like Mallory is still
26:49
trying to hold on to that idea that she's fun and cool where
26:52
she's slowly losing it. Like she's slowly losing that
26:55
ability to like, because she's writing him letters and they're
27:00
all like, I don't really want to talk because they're so creepy
27:04
and weird. But like the letters are all
27:05
like acting out these like weird fantasies and stuff.
27:09
And it's like she's obviously obsessed with the idea that
27:12
it'll be fun and they'll not talk about the fact that they're
27:15
seeing each other less or that their relationship is completely
27:19
breaking down. Because I think she wants it.
27:22
She never wants to. I think that maybe there's a
27:25
side of, of being in a woman, of being a woman that where it's
27:28
like, you don't ever want to seem emotional to people because
27:32
that's just a trope. And that's a stereotype of, oh,
27:35
you're emotional and you're just being an emotional woman.
27:38
So she has to keep this facade up.
27:40
She cannot let it, like she can't let that go.
27:43
She has to be not like other girls.
27:45
And I feel like it's really crushing her life because she's
27:49
never on. She's never honest with John on
27:51
the other, on the other side of that coin.
27:53
And she knows that if she was honest and gave her whole
27:57
personality, he, he wouldn't be around for very long, you know?
27:59
So she's caught between these two worlds where she, like, she
28:01
obviously loves him, so she doesn't want to let him go.
28:06
And it's that kind of, yeah, like, I don't think maybe
28:11
there's probably more books that talk about this, but I think the
28:13
only one I can think of is Gone Girl.
28:15
And I really wasn't a massive fan of the book, but I I think
28:19
I've enjoyed this book more. On her relationship with John,
28:22
there's one part where it's close to the start, umm, where
28:29
she talks about the experience of a waitress and John is like
28:34
flirting with the waitress or I don't even think it's as upfront
28:38
as flirting, but he clearly has some kind of interest in her and
28:42
the waitress is like, oh, you should order this food.
28:46
Oh and this is good too. And he just basically orders
28:49
everything that she suggests. And Mallory is like, why are we
28:55
getting all of this food? We don't need all of this food.
28:58
And then the bill comes out really expensive and Mallory
29:00
doesn't offer to pay for any of it purely because she's like, I
29:05
didn't like he's the one who ordered all this food that we
29:09
didn't need. Yes, I eat half of it, but I
29:13
only eat it because it was there, which then comes up again
29:17
at some other point where? She thinks that he's kept the
29:20
receipt from it because. So it becomes this whole thing.
29:22
I think she sees this as the turning point in their
29:24
relationship because he's kind of emasculated by the fact that
29:27
it's obviously much too expensive, though he is, I think
29:32
at this point earning a lot more than her.
29:34
But she's. Yeah.
29:35
So she doesn't pay for any of the bill.
29:37
She's quite annoyed. I think she's she's got that
29:40
fear of leaving the food, like she doesn't want to leave the
29:43
food because that's kind of also embarrassing.
29:45
So she eats the food, but then she's like, I'm not, you know, I
29:48
didn't want any of this food. It was like way too much.
29:50
I didn't want to, you know, do that.
29:51
So she doesn't pay. And then he obviously is stuck
29:55
with this massive bill and he's really angry about it.
29:59
But neither of them are having like an actual conversation
30:01
about what's happened. They're just kind of being
30:03
annoyed at each other. And but I think this is almost
30:08
the end of the fun. It's not fun anymore.
30:10
You know, he also kind of is like you're really rude to the
30:14
waitresses because it happened a few times with different
30:17
waitresses and he's. Like yes.
30:18
He's like, you're really rude and you don't like younger
30:21
attractive women. And I think that that's that
30:23
could very well be true. And for her, because she knows,
30:29
I think this is also the same as with Gone Girl.
30:31
Sorry to mention Gone Girls. I read that like 10 years ago.
30:37
It's obviously stuck in my head. I didn't realize that.
30:39
But she basically is like there's nothing she can do when
30:42
this younger woman comes in. Like there's just nothing she
30:45
can do. Like she can't be as fun as this
30:48
girl is young and good looking, you know what I mean?
30:51
So like I think Mallory's in that same boat where she's just
30:53
like, I'm just going to lose him.
30:55
And I mean, it does happen in the end.
30:56
He does leave her for a younger woman.
30:59
So it's like she is and she she believes it is the same
31:01
waitress, even though I don't know that we have enough
31:04
evidence to objectively say that ourselves.
31:06
I don't want this to come across as misogynistic or a sexist, so
31:10
please call me out if if I am presenting it in that way.
31:16
From my perspective, it was very trophy and felt very much like,
31:22
oh, this is the typical female thing of like these two women
31:26
can't get along because they see each other as enemies.
31:30
And she had that kind of like confront, not confrontation, but
31:34
like the head butting with Ellie and then with this waitress.
31:38
And to me, I was just like, this feels like a cheap way to write
31:42
women. And I know it's written by women
31:44
so like who or women? It's written by a woman and so
31:48
who am I as a man to say she can't write women properly?
31:53
It just felt it felt like 2 dimensional rather than like a
31:56
fully formed woman. Well.
31:58
I I guess I thought that Ellie and her relationship was because
32:01
I thought that she does really like Ellie.
32:03
I, I didn't, I didn't see it as butting heads as much as maybe.
32:09
Just the e-mail in particular that I'm referring to, I do.
32:13
And maybe it's one of those things that sure, people do have
32:16
conflict with their best friends every now and then, and it
32:20
shouldn't be reduced that their relationship is just like Caddy,
32:24
I think. I don't know that we see enough
32:27
to make that leap of like, oh, they're just not getting on
32:31
because I do think they do get on.
32:32
I quite liked what we saw of them.
32:35
I didn't think it was I didn't I guess I didn't think it was 22
32:38
dimensional. I I think, though, I think
32:41
you're right with the the waitress thing.
32:43
That is kind of a trope, but I didn't I don't didn't feel like,
32:47
oh, she's leaning in. I think she she knows what she's
32:50
doing when she's doing that one. And she knew.
32:53
And I think as well, another thing that's probably playing in
32:56
Mallory's mind is she knows how much of A trope she's being and
32:59
she knows that that doesn't add into the fun girl that she's
33:01
being. And I, I do find that I thought
33:05
that was quite well done because I think that yes, it is a trope,
33:08
but it also is something that's deep down in her psyche.
33:12
And I think sometimes people do the tropes kind of end up being.
33:18
Something. Yeah, and it's like she
33:20
obviously does have this fear of, you know, she's, she's in
33:23
her 30s and I'm also in my 30s. I, I don't know that I fear
33:27
waitresses that much, but I'm starting to know I don't, I
33:33
don't think that that's something that I have.
33:35
But I guess maybe if all of a sudden person that you're with
33:39
is like maybe being a bit like, I don't know if you fear that in
33:44
like in the relationship you're with because she, she's
33:46
extremely insecure in the relationship she's in.
33:48
And so I guess that she, and she obviously has this fear for a
33:52
reason. Like he obviously does like
33:54
younger women. So it's, and I mean it is a
33:56
trope, possibly because it happened so much.
34:00
I suppose it's also a trope of men that is somewhat true, that
34:04
like as much as it's a trope like that, this story is maybe
34:09
leaning into some tropes of women, It's also calling out the
34:13
tropes of men. That they can be a bit creepy
34:16
when they approach women outside at night, that they can prefer
34:22
younger women to their ageing partner.
34:27
Yeah. So maybe, maybe it is OK to have
34:30
these tropes. I just, it felt I, I wasn't a
34:34
fan of it. Yeah.
34:36
I mean, I don't think that's that's a bad thing.
34:40
I think that like, I, I, there's definitely tropes that annoy me.
34:44
I thought, I do think that this book has a lot of tropes in it.
34:48
And I think that that's maybe something that she is playing
34:50
on. Like I think she's playing on
34:52
the fact women are quite self critical and it's also something
34:57
that Gong girl, you don't need to buy Gong girl for this by
35:04
Ghost Driver. Instead it's better than Gong
35:08
girl. I do feel like that is maybe
35:12
like a millennial thing where it's like you have this like you
35:17
don't want to be a certain type of woman.
35:19
I think she doesn't want to be a certain type of woman.
35:22
And him bringing up that she's obviously subconsciously being a
35:25
bit rude to these waitresses is her being pointed out as being a
35:29
stereotypical woman. When someone points out a flaw
35:32
in you that you think is a trope, it is kind of annoying
35:36
because you're like, I don't mean to be like that.
35:37
I don't mean to be this trope. I think as well, it's it's
35:40
another thing when women are kind of emotional.
35:42
It's like it makes the emotion worse because you're like,
35:44
right, I'm just being this emotional woman or I'm being
35:46
this hormonal. I'm putting that in inverted
35:48
comments and being this type of woman and you you end up in a
35:53
spiral. And I feel like you can feel
35:54
like Marilyn Mallory is in a spiral where she can't break
35:58
from her fear of tropes. She can't be that woman because
36:03
she's she's never learned that that works.
36:06
You know that being herself works.
36:09
She has to, she has to, to reject everything like that and
36:14
going back to the slug. So I was thinking, because a lot
36:18
of the time she'll describe something and then she'll be
36:20
like, Oh, well, this wasn't the case.
36:21
So like she'll see John somewhere and then she'll be
36:23
like, that's it wasn't John or, or she'll have these.
36:26
She has an illness throughout it, she talks about her illness.
36:29
It's very physical. It's also very mental.
36:31
It's a lot of things. No one knows what the source of
36:34
it is. And then she's like, well, maybe
36:36
I maybe it was just mental. There's times where she doesn't
36:39
quite know what reality is or like, did I see someone?
36:42
Did someone knock on my door in my in her apartment, she has
36:47
this kind of like, and she oftentimes just goes, oh, well,
36:50
that maybe didn't happen. And I kind of thought, does this
36:53
all come back to the slug story? So basically there's a slug in
36:58
her tea, right? And her dad has made her tea.
37:01
And so she drinks the tea and then she confronts her dad, who
37:04
doesn't really listen to her and is like, doesn't I don't even
37:07
know that he grasps what's happened.
37:09
But she does say later that he doesn't believe her story about
37:11
the slug, even though she saw this slug, she's obviously got
37:16
like gastroenteritis from it and she's been vomiting for ages and
37:19
she vomits up a slug and like it's body has boiled in her
37:23
stomach. Like she describes this quite.
37:25
She has this evidence, but we kind of learn this story from
37:29
the lens if she's telling her therapist about it.
37:30
And her therapist obviously like this is a really bad story.
37:33
This is a horrific thing to happen and she doesn't see it as
37:35
horrific. And I was kind of thinking, is
37:38
the reason that she doesn't trust her own judgment partly
37:42
because only later in her life do people believe her slug
37:46
story. So when she's young and she's
37:50
telling this story to people, they're like, well, that sounds
37:53
ridiculous. Or like she tells her parents or
37:55
people that are kind of like in charge of her life at the time,
37:59
they don't believe her. Do you think she doesn't trust
38:02
herself and her own reality of what's happening in life?
38:05
So then later when she goes to the doctor and she's like, oh,
38:07
you've not got anything wrong with you.
38:08
She's like, OK, I'm just making this up.
38:11
So this might not be exactly what you're trying to get at,
38:14
but to me it almost felt like she had like Lyme disease or
38:19
like FI fibromyalgia of where something that isn't necessarily
38:25
completely understood by medical professionals, isn't easily
38:32
diagnosed, isn't easily treated, has a wide range of symptoms.
38:37
And like what parts are in someone's are in the, the
38:43
patient's head and what parts are actually a real diagnosable
38:48
thing. I think that's kind of the point
38:51
of this is like, well is, is she actually suffering with stuff?
38:55
And, umm, I think at the end, umm, of all of the treatments,
38:58
whenever all the tests come back fine or, or whatever and they
39:01
can't find anything and her antibiotics like, umm, all the
39:05
run on that or painkillers or whatever all come to an end.
39:08
Then all they do is up her anxiety medication and to like
39:12
indicate that it is all happening in, in her mind.
39:16
I I was thinking like, is it like a Lyme disease kind of
39:19
thing that, that she's suffering with?
39:20
I think it's definitely something that is enough that
39:23
she senses other people don't believe her.
39:26
Like she senses that because this pain cannot be shown on an
39:30
X-ray or cannot be shown on like blood tests.
39:34
Therefore, everyone's going to view me as like, not a liar, but
39:39
like hysterical. And, and again, this all
39:41
probably ties into the trope of, of womanhood of like you're,
39:48
you're, you're over egging something.
39:51
Like you're, you're being hysterical.
39:53
Maybe hysterical is part of this, like the idea that this
39:58
can't be from somewhere because we've done all the tests and
40:01
we've ruled this out. And I, I feel like even though
40:03
no one specifically necessarily tells her, she does talk about
40:06
people's sympathy kind of wearing thin.
40:08
Nobody specifically is like, you're making this up or
40:09
anything. She she feels this acutely.
40:13
Just on the sickness, I don't know if you thought this as well
40:19
or if this is me having some of my crazy thoughts, but I was
40:22
thinking is her body being used as some kind of incubator for an
40:27
alien? Why is nobody else on this
40:35
podcast? I'd let Colin deal with that
40:39
one. If you like it, put me your
40:41
reasons. I I didn't think that at all
40:43
reading the book. So another thread that kind of
40:48
keeps coming up throughout is Aliens.
40:52
And maybe you're like, what are you talking about?
40:55
But there was specifically that like class that she went to
40:59
where, Oh, it gives me so much cringe where the instructor was
41:04
like, OK, everyone turn to your partner and introduce yourself
41:10
like you're an alien who has never been to the planet Earth.
41:15
And then he starts like, like acting like a chicken and just
41:18
screaming like cheeseburgers. And I was like, what is this
41:25
drama class that they're in? This is so awkward.
41:29
And then it's kind of like she's chastised for, not for not being
41:32
into it enough. Which I so I was like, is she an
41:36
alien? And is she actually because
41:39
because like they were told to act like aliens.
41:42
She has a natural reaction to that scenario.
41:46
I think proves they're more human than anybody else in that
41:50
room. I'm basically, yeah, she she
41:52
just stands still and doesn't do anything, which she herself
41:56
defends a saying, If I was faced with an alien creature that I
42:01
had never met before, I'm not going to do some big elaborate
42:05
like greeting to them. I'm going to be frozen solid
42:11
because I can't believe what I'm seeing.
42:15
So then I was like, oh, is she actually like doing what a
42:20
person would do? And then she always talks about
42:23
having this pain in her like abdomen or like maybe her gut or
42:27
something. And she goes to get a massage
42:30
and they, like, feel it. It's one of those.
42:33
Feels that they don't. Is that not what happens or
42:35
something like she's like, there's a massive protrusion on
42:37
my and then they're like there's nothing there?
42:40
Yes, yes. And then at the very end,
42:43
literally the last chapter and she wakes up strapped to like a
42:48
hospital bed or, or a bed like in an OR and a surgeon walks in
42:55
and he's like taking a scalpel probably to do some work on
43:01
that. So I was like, is this, is she
43:04
having like the alien removed from her?
43:07
Again, aliens might not have anything to do with this, but
43:10
then I was like, how much like has all of this been in her
43:14
mind? Is she uh, like under anesthesia
43:19
And like a lot of this stuff doesn't make sense because she,
43:23
but also from what I understand, you actually don't dream when
43:26
you're under anesthesia. And why would she only be
43:29
gaining consciousness but as the surgeon walks in.
43:33
Some alien type of anesthetic. Maybe.
43:36
Maybe that allows you to have dreams.
43:38
Slightly with that. Did I Not that I think.
43:41
It did happen, but the last thing is strange.
43:44
Is like what? I didn't like this bit.
43:46
We. So in the end when she it's
43:47
called ending and it's the final page and it's like, yeah, so
43:50
she's strapped to this bed and someone's operating on her.
43:54
And the man spoke to her as a child as he moved his long dump
43:58
fingers over her body. That's a bit tricky.
44:02
There's multiple parts where men, OK, there's the other part
44:05
where she's shopping in the supermarket and then a man with
44:09
yellow eyes basically is like, come with me, let's go to a pub.
44:16
But I know a shortcut through the storeroom of the
44:20
supermarket. And then they just walk down,
44:23
down, down, down, down, like way underground.
44:26
And they end up in this pub. And I think he touches her and
44:32
he his like fingers are described as being like slimy
44:36
and wet and like long. I like it.
44:39
It felt like it was another alien kind of thing.
44:41
Have you? I just got a picture up on my
44:44
screen. Have you, did you, have you ever
44:46
watched The X-Files? No.
44:48
Oh. My sort it out.
44:50
So basically there's like a recurring character, right,
44:53
who's like this liver guy, right?
44:57
And he kind of like regenerates every so often.
45:01
So he's in multiple episodes because usually it's like
45:03
something's exciting happens in just the one episode and then
45:05
they leave it. This guy appears he's in the
45:07
first season and he's threw out, but he like lives off their
45:10
levers of people. And yeah, and then he goes into
45:15
like a hibernation for like a couple of years and he comes
45:18
back out and he has, he has yellow eyes.
45:21
And I was picturing him when I was reading it.
45:25
And like, I feel like, because yellow eyes, I was like, is that
45:29
a thing? Do do a lot of people have
45:31
yellow eyes? And sorry to, for the yellow
45:35
eyed community. I don't know if there'd be that
45:37
much of a crossover of people who listen to this podcast and
45:39
people who have yellow eyes. And but if you do, I'm sorry,
45:43
but I, I, I kind of see what you mean because there's such a
45:47
strange thing with like basements and like.
45:50
Yeah, and the institution? Yeah.
45:54
And it does seem like, I suppose because it does seem to be
45:56
taking place in some kind of like future reality where like
46:00
this, this institution seems to have a lot of power in people's
46:03
lives, even though she does like, she gets kicked out of the
46:05
institution, but but what is going on?
46:09
It seems like so she gets fired from the institution.
46:13
Do we know why It kind of? She's not doing her work
46:17
properly. But she goes through like, all
46:20
these, like, things that she's done and people keep pulling
46:23
them up for it, like, like she's just lies down in the middle of
46:25
a corridor or something. And she does all these other
46:27
things. But then she's like, she has a
46:29
letter that she doesn't open. Yeah, she has to come to this
46:34
disciplinary meeting and she eventually goes open it and she
46:36
goes go to the disciplinary meeting.
46:38
But it's kind of like they don't, she doesn't say exactly
46:41
because they seem to be like relating to this incident.
46:43
And then she sort of talks about it in the future.
46:46
She's like, oh, if it wasn't like like she mentions this big
46:49
incident that happened and it's kind of like, well, what?
46:53
Like what was it? I don't.
46:55
Did you get a sense of you knew exactly what it was?
46:57
Because I don't. Think no.
46:58
I honestly had no idea. I might have missed it, but
47:03
again, maybe it just wasn't actually mentioned.
47:08
But yeah, she, she gets dismissed.
47:10
And the instructions that she's given is like, you have to get
47:15
out of this building as quick as possible, but you also have to
47:18
adhere to the rules of the institution.
47:21
So I, I honestly thought she was going to have to jump out of the
47:24
window at first because they make this whole big deal about
47:27
how there's a window and a bird hits the window at the start of
47:29
the meeting. And then she just keeps thinking
47:31
about how the bird's heart rate is slowing as it's dying, and
47:36
she walks outside and she drags her finger along the wall in
47:42
hopes that she would leave part of herself behind.
47:44
Which then is that like another like, slimy finger kind of
47:47
thing? I don't know.
47:49
I think she's a desperate need to be seen, like a desperate,
47:53
like need to leave something like because like there's
47:56
definitely times where like someone says such something
47:58
she's bad. She's done in the institution
48:00
and she's like kind of happy about it because she's like,
48:02
they've seen me. I think because a lot of the
48:04
time she is, she feels completely invisible in in her
48:10
work role. Yeah.
48:13
But she's also told if you don't get out of this building as
48:18
quick as possible and follow the rules, we have a group of people
48:23
who will come after you and wherever you are, they are 13
48:27
seconds away. And they are and.
48:34
They walk her down, they open up like a room or a door in the in
48:42
the building and they walk her downstairs and she walks for
48:45
days and days and days. I think if does it feel like
48:48
days? I don't think it.
48:49
She thinks it's been days because she's she's dying of
48:52
thirst at the end. I, I kind of got the vibe that
48:57
she, because I was like, wait, what do you mean days?
49:00
But I got the feeling that she kind of corrected that at some
49:03
point that it wasn't days. But I, I don't know, I kind of
49:06
got the feeling that she. Well, whenever she does get to
49:10
the bottom, she gets strapped into a chair and she's just told
49:13
wait here, somebody will be for you soon.
49:15
So is that the part before she wakes up and she's strapped to a
49:19
bed? Could, could what?
49:21
It seems like the precursor to that.
49:23
It could be. But then also what's she doing?
49:25
And because then later on she meets the yellow out man and she
49:27
was doing some basement with him.
49:29
Yeah. It's like, yeah, there's a lot
49:31
of opportunities. It also could have happened when
49:33
the volunteer policeman came up to her because that that
49:37
storylines never kind of finished either.
49:39
There's a lot of opportunities for her to have to have ended up
49:43
in the last scenario. So when she goes to her second
49:46
job, I just felt like this is every job since COVID for like a
49:51
lot of office workers. The job that's like, wait, what?
49:54
What's the title she's given? She has a title and then she
49:56
gets a better title, but she can't remember what it is.
49:58
And she starts, she starts doing her job really badly, like
50:01
putting action like loads of errors into it and stuff.
50:03
And she's like nobody notices. And she, she realizes that her
50:07
like manager has been doing the exact same work as her.
50:10
And she's like, is this because I've done mine badly or is this
50:15
because? Like you've invented a rule for
50:18
me that doesn't actually require anywhere.
50:21
The ones looking at either of their things and no one cares
50:23
what anyone's doing. She's an administrative sister
50:27
to human resource growth support services.
50:33
I like the workplace elements of it.
50:34
I kind of wish that there was more stuff about her in the
50:37
institution than there was. But like there's different parts
50:40
where things like don't tell your colleagues 1 interesting
50:43
thing about yourself. Like so she's like, I like
50:45
running and everyone's like ask her questions about her life and
50:48
that's kind of her way of like getting away from it.
50:51
And I was like, I really relate to that.
50:54
No, I get that too. Where?
50:57
Like this is the thing I'm known for.
50:58
We don't need to. We don't need to like.
51:01
Dive into your personal life. Yeah, it's kind of like, OK,
51:03
this is easy. We can, we can chat about
51:05
running, you know. Yeah, it it, it definitely was
51:09
comical apart. I don't know how I felt about
51:12
the left alignment because it's not justified, which I like
51:15
justification. I don't know if that's a moist
51:17
press thing because I don't know if I've read another moist press
51:20
thing. I've honestly never noticed
51:23
this, but now that you've pointed out, yeah, it is very
51:27
obvious to me. So let's decide what we're going
51:31
to be reading this book out of five for the first 2/3 before it
51:35
got to like the chapter called the institution or whatever that
51:38
chapter was called. I was going to give this two out
51:41
of five. But then the institution and the
51:46
rest of it was a lot more interesting for me.
51:50
And it felt like this story was then something original.
51:54
And our conversation also helped me out.
51:57
So I'm giving a three out of five.
51:58
I it could be worth more than that, but it's just not my type
52:02
of book, which I think is like, it's probably better than my
52:06
enjoyment. And but I'm given a three out of
52:08
five and I think it's an easy read.
52:10
I think it's fun and but again, one that's really good for
52:15
conversation. And if we also think about the
52:19
other book that we've already done an epsilon from the
52:22
shortlist, which is figures walking towards whatever that
52:28
book's called. Figures crawling the fields
52:31
towards the group. That's it.
52:35
I think based off both of these books, maybe they were selected
52:39
for the shortlist because upon rereads they that adds to the
52:46
experience. I think both of these stories
52:49
could benefit from reread. I haven't read anything else
52:54
from the shortlist, but you have.
52:56
You've read Spit, So what what? What's your thoughts on on this?
53:00
What are you giving it out of 5I?
53:01
Think I'm going to go 3.5. I did.
53:04
I really enjoyed our conversation.
53:05
I think it's very good. I I like the writing and I
53:08
thought it was funny. I think our conversation has
53:13
made this better in my view. And I think you could be right
53:19
with the fact that might need a second read, because I think
53:21
there's a lot of things that I don't have.
53:24
I almost feel like it's a series of events and I don't have a lot
53:27
of coherence for it. But I think maybe the coherence
53:30
is there. And I think when when we were
53:32
talking about that stuff with Ellie and the the man, I kind of
53:35
was like, oh, maybe there is more significance to this event
53:38
and maybe there's more significance to more of the
53:41
events than what I've maybe given.
53:44
So I think you could be right there.
53:46
But just from, from first read, I think, I definitely think, I
53:50
think she might be a, this might be her first work.
53:54
I think it's a really, really good debut novel, like a
53:56
fantastic 1. And I definitely think if, if
53:59
you're kind of into like books with unreliable narrators, this
54:04
is a good unreliable narrator book.
54:05
And it's, I think that genre has maybe become quite oversaturated
54:08
recently, which is, I don't know, like I think a lot of
54:13
books there's there's because of the oversaturatedness, there's a
54:16
lot of books that aren't that great.
54:19
They're in that category. And I think that that made me
54:21
kind of be like, I'm not going to enjoy this book.
54:23
And I kind of have this thing set at the start where I was
54:25
like, OK, you're an unreliable narrator.
54:28
We don't know what's going on with her.
54:30
But I actually think that there were a lot of meaningful parts
54:33
to this, and maybe more much more to it than the standard
54:38
unrelatable narrator book. Do you think it could win?
54:44
I think it's more likely to win than figures.
54:45
I'm going to say this and I'm going to be completely wrong.
54:47
I just think figures is less accessible.
54:51
So I think this is this is more accessible.
54:54
Not that I think I understood it in any way in the same way I
54:57
don't think I understood figures.
54:59
I think it's more of an enjoyable read purse per SE.
55:05
I I'd be happy enough with this winning.
55:07
I I wouldn't think it would be AI wouldn't be disappointed at
55:10
all with this one. I'll be, I think.
55:13
I think there's some really good writing in it.
55:15
If this does win I I will reread it and because as you said
55:20
there's probably elements that that I have missed and the
55:25
skimming probably didn't help in all honesty but I still think
55:29
that I I picked up enough to I don't.
55:34
Think that like yeah, I don't know because I don't really I
55:39
don't really know. Like I quite enjoyed the first
55:43
two parts. I almost because the end didn't
55:48
was like the end left me quite confused.
55:51
I did enjoy the ending. Like I enjoyed all the weird
55:53
stuff that was happening, but I was kind of like, I don't know,
55:57
I had a more concrete control over the start.
55:59
Like I felt more like I understood what was going on and
56:02
I did enjoy it. The winner is announced on
56:05
Wednesday. Read along and share your
56:07
thoughts on Instagram at Bookies Favorite Book Club and you can
56:09
also e-mail us at bookiesfavoritebookclub@gmail.com
56:12
that is favorite with EU. We've covered other award
56:15
winners and shortlists, including last year's
56:18
International Booker Prize, and this year's is starting in a
56:23
couple of weeks, so subscribe on whatever podcast platform you're
56:27
listening on so you don't miss the next episodes.
56:29
You can find me on Instagram. I am at Aaron Rice Media.
56:33
You can find me at Books 2026 and that's books with AZ, not an
56:40
S. Share this episode with a book
56:42
lover you think would like this book.
56:44
Rate the podcast 5 stars, and let's end on a final quote from
56:48
Ghost Driver. And when someone says something
56:51
like that to you, something like part of you is very disturbed.
56:55
You do feel great. You just do.
56:57
Bookies out. Goodbye, bye.