Latest / Reframe / 16: Scott Leggo, From Airforce to Fine art.

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16: Scott Leggo, From Airforce to Fine art. · Reframe

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever wondered what truly fuels a creative mind?
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: What ignites their passions and drives their creativity?
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: G'day, I'm Dean McGuire, an Australian fine art photographer.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: From the moment I step into the world of photography, I have been captivated by the community and the stories behind the lens.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Join me as we delve into humble beginnings, explore artistic visions, and discover how we as a collective reframe our minds through the power of creativity.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Before we dive into this episode, I'd like to give a quick shout out to the incredible team at Missy Filters Australia.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Missy offer world-class products like high-quality filters with minimal cover casts, an impressive range of cinematic lenses, and various other accessories to fuel your creative endeavours.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Missy Australia actively supports the greater photography community through workshops, educational events, and live streaming webinars on YouTube and other social media channels.
• 0:53
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• 1:00
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• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Visit mistyfilters.com.au today.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you and welcome to Reframe.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Today we are speaking with Scott Lego.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: We speak about his time in the Air Force, transitioning into photography, and then we lean heavily into the business side of the industry.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: We're in lovely Canberra this afternoon at Mr.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Scott Lego's gallery.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having us today, Scott.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's alright.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Pleasure.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Mel to us.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh congratulations, congratulations on a fantastic gallery.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Can you take us through why you moved from your old place?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh look, multifaceted, I guess.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we were in three different premises.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: So we had the we had the gowery space that didn't have a lot of room out the back.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: We had uh another facility where we were using for storage, and then we had a couple of offices up the road.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so what it allowed us to do was really just consolidate from from three separate locations down to the one location.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: So the new gallery is just the public-facing part of the business.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um we've got a whole lot of back office, we've got storage out the back from some offices and things upstairs as well.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it really just allowed us to kind of bring the team together into all one location.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: But in terms of the gallery space itself, um, we'd be in the previous gallery for five years, and I guess over time you'd learn things about how customers interact with the space, and that was our first gallery.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so yeah, the timing was right in terms of where that lease was at.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And of this new space allows us to apply some of those lessons learned and create a bit more of the space that we wanted to do.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we've got higher ceilings, we've all got custom joinery, and we had this essentially everything you see here is new.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we had an interior designer help us with the design, and then you know, everything is is new.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a very custom designed and custom built space.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, really excited.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's custom chic and clean, is how I describe it.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: One thing I noticed, and you brought it up was your hidden powerpoints.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's this testament to your hypher detail, which comes across in all of your work as well.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: I want to bring up these drawers you've got.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: So what we're look talking about is in Scott's Gallery Year, we have these little slide-out drawers under the sort of uh mezzanine tables that are sitting around.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it's got all these little blocks inside.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, where did you come up with that idea?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the challenge for us is at the end of the day, we're we're a retail business, right?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, how do we uh showcase as many of our products, as much of our product range as we can while still keeping a clean, simple aesthetic around around the gurry.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: So what this allows us to do is have uh compared to the previous gurry, allows us to have a lot more stock out on display, yeah, but without making the space cluttered.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll see exactly like you just described, you know, for customers in the gurry, they've got a very kind of clean look, but equally, if they're interested in something more, they can see into those drawers, invites them to explore more.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it goes to the kind of customer experience that we're we're trying to create.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, for people that uh maybe haven't heard about the gurry before, maybe haven't heard about my photography if they're a first-time visitor into the store, then you know, we're inviting greater exploration, not just of the photographs, but of the product types and things like that as well.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, like I said, there's a lot of lessons learned from the previous one and we've tried to apply that here.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's all about you know, in a retail sense, how do you maximize you know every square meter that that you've got and how do you make that work for you?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that was the approach that we came up with.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Look, I don't think necessarily that that is revolutionary or that you know it's the only way that you can do it.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, some people take the approach of trying to put, you know, create more verticality with with what they do or you know, put more things on the walls.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, that's just the approach that we've taken, and what it allows you to do is give people the step space so they can stand back and appreciate the artworks, you know, from a from a better viewing distance rather than being forced up to them too close.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, it also just accommodates a greater number of people in the gallery at the one time so that you know when we're busy uh we can accommodate a lot more people, but people uh have still got the opportunity to kind of explore the products.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny you mentioned the drawers because I popped in yesterday before um work and I was bending down and looking in the drawers, and the lady turns around, what are you looking at?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: She didn't realise there were drawers there, and the next thing you know, she's she's in the drawers and having a look, and it was it's that's actually a great idea.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: When I saw these drawers, when I come to your gallery a couple months ago, I walked in, I was like, this is the best idea.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because then, like you said, you go to other galleries and they can be quite cluttered, particularly a mixed gallery, not a solo gallery.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: So fantastic idea.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that the thing for me to that I I guess how I think about this and you know for your listeners is at the end of the day, you know, we're a retail business and you have to think like a retail business and you have to be thinking about the ways that you can create a great customer experience for people that are in your store and you know how do you present your product in the best light possible.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: So do you think photographers in general should think about themselves as a retailer instead of a photographer or a combination of both?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess it depends.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, some some photographers are uh uh you're in yeah, what I would call service-based business, and others are in in the retail business.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're quite clear.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we are we're a retail business and a and a product business, yeah, yeah, in our case.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and that necessarily shouldn't be the same for everyone.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: But the thing that I would say to other photographers is first and foremost, you you are a business uh and you have to determine what business that you are in, you know, what product or service are you offering, you know, what is that addressable market, who is your target audience?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: You are no different to any other business out there.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: You just have a particular product that's based off photography.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of people struggle to understand that ultimately they are in a business if they're trying to make you know a commercial goal of it, and that you know, you exist ultimately to try and sell that product.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think I get quite frustrated when I hear sometimes about what people are being taught at you know, art school or photography school or or what have you.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I I don't see photography any different to uh uh you know any other business in that sense that you've got a product or you've got a service, as the case may be, if you're um if that's what you're doing, and you've got to get it in front of people and you've got to present value to your customers in exchange for them to give you money.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so I guess in answer to your question, yeah, people absolutely need to see it as a business, um, but they need to work out whether they're in the retail business or they're in a service business or what business they're in.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: You just brought up um art school.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to know um how you got into photography and and where you learnt, actually.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: So look, my background is probably very unconventional and very not the traditional uh approach.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: For those who haven't heard, it is um it is clear.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I haven't actually heard this sales.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's a it is incredible.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so look, I uh so yeah, I'm probably the complete antithesis of the RT creative type.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, going through school, uh I was determined that I was going to be a pilot in the Air Force, and you know, I'd been surrounded by uh aviation from a from a pretty young age.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my father was an air traffic controller, my uncle was an ANSAT pilot, my auntie was an airline hostie, my other auntie was in, you know, the travel industry for ANSET.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um I lived just near Eston Airport.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I joined the air training corps.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: I could fly a plane before I could drive a car.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, aviation was, you know, I guess in my in my blood.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I always probably saw that my career or my pathway was always going to be aviation related.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it determined that I wanted to be a pilot in the Air Force.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: So out of school, I joined uh the Air Force uh as I you know, joined to be a pilot.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh went to Defence Force Academy here in here in Canberra.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so great experience there, you know, uh doing my officer training.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I was 20 years old, you know, my final year there, I had a hierarchy position, so I was 20 years old and you know, in charge of 180 people or something like that at 20.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: So uh talk about kind of leadership and management thrown in the deep end, yeah, very much the case.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so yeah, so then uh yeah, went off to uh then went to pilot's course and and like many, um you did make it through uh pilot's course.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: So uh then but stayed in the Air Force and then became a weapons and tactics instructor for fighter air crew.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: So uh very lucky in that then I got to uh spend a bunch of time in the backseat of a of a Hornet.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: So for a guy that um didn't make it through pilots course, I got into um do a whole lot of um you know time in a fighter aircraft, which was just incredible.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: Then uh you know, surrounded by I guess you know very high performance culture uh uh around that.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: I did Iraq in 2003, uh, in terms of war in uh Middle East there.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Then uh got out of uh the Air Force uh then uh about 12, 18 months after that, then uh went across to public service, and so then I was a diplomat at foreign affairs and trade and that's it was during that time when I just had a crazy work-life balance that I kind of came across photography if you you want to think about it like that.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I used I was just travelling like crazy, and I still remember one Sunday, uh, you know, I'd just flown back from overseas and I was in the office and I was about to fly out overseas again the next morning, and I was like, this is just crazy.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'd broken up with a girlfriend at the time, and you know, I thought my mates are all at the pub or they're out rock climbing or they're out doing something, and here I am in you know work.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just like I think there was this just realization that my entire life was dominated by work, and it had just got to that point, and it'd been a gradual process over time, and I just realized I thought I think I had nothing else going on.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: I just thought this was crazy.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: And there was this Ken Duncan print on the on the wall.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: This this guy pox I looked myself everywhere, who's Ken Duncan?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember just like looking at that and just and I don't I didn't know anything about Ken Duncan other than the fact that I probably just recognized, you know, that this guy was you know had a few prints around the place here and then and I was like, wouldn't it be awesome if you just travel around Australia and talk landscape?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's pretty much how it started.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so I yeah, I didn't know anything about photography.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: I literally went to the bookstore and bought a few books on you know photography and then you know went and bought a camera and was like, okay.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh, so a digital sensor on a camera works the same way a flur does on a hornet.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of get this.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if I do this, I do this.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then so it all kind of seemed the technical side of photography just seemed to fall in place uh for me, what relatively easily in terms of understanding apertures, ISOs, and all and all kind of stuff.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: It just I seemed to get it.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so then I started taking photos and people like, hey, these are all right, you should think about selling them.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then it just it kind of grew from there.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: So essentially I, you know, that became a little business on the side.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then eventually I left the public service and I went full-time into uh the business.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, like a lot of people, you know, it was probably a bit of a struggle in those early years, and I wasn't making anywhere near as much money as I probably should have been.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, especially, I mean, I gave up a decent kind of career at that point.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so then the opportunity came along to um yeah, join a management consulting firm.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I joined the top-tier um global management consulting firm, and I feel like I crammed an MBA into that first 12 months.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so the business kind of was stayed stayed there on the side, but uh, you know, not as much um as a priority, but it it was growing.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think by working in the management consulting firm, what I realized was a whole bunch of the systems and frameworks and methodologies that I've learned in the military uh were actually applicable to business.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that really helped me kind of pull that together and actually understand what I needed to do from a business point of view.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so then uh around that time, my wife joined the business.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: So she actually came into the business and ended up like in a kind of part-time sense on the on the side as well.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: So we both had a full-time job at the time.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: She started to come into the the business on the side.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Then ultimately I left where I was working at the time and then joined a smaller uh management consulting firm.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I joined the man I might join the management team uh in that firm.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And uh around that time, my wife then came into the business full-time.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: So my wife was in the business full-time before I was uh in in that case.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then so I was work technically I was working you know part-time uh in that firm.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it just meant I was working five days a week instead of seven.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then uh we got bought uh sorry, then had a we realized that I guess to grow the business, we really needed a physical premises where people could see the the work.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: So at the time my wife was literally going around to corporate clients carrying prints under her arm and you know, doing that, doing that sort of th like a portfolio kind of thing to show.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well no, actually like you know, actually for actual framed prints.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, really?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so uh so that clients could could see it.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And we realized that we needed a physical premises where people could see that involved.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: We started to look around at you know, some some retail spaces, not a lot of options when you're uh you know, kind of trying to work out how you do it.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: So we've made an offer offer uh on what was where the old Gurry was, and they kind of told us to to nick off because you know we weren't offering enough.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh two days, I think it was two or three days, I think we're we're still in hospital.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: So about two days after my um daughter was born, the landlord called and said, Oh, I found that offer you made last year, is that you know, you you're still interested in the place.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: So here I am, you know, with a pretty stable, you know, job, brand new kid when a dad should be thinking about you know providing for a family, you know, all this kind of stuff, contemplating essentially leaving the job that I was in and then going and starting, you know, opening a gallery.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that's we yeah, kind of toyed with that a fair bit.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I was like, well, when is the right time?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, do you wait till they start school?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Do you do you do what have you?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: So literally with you know, a very, very new baby, here we were negotiating with lawyers and landlords and all that kind of stuff to try and set up what was you know the previous gallery.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that was uh so we opened that, you know, kind of bit over, you know, probably five and a half years ago now.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then so then I went full, so I then stepped away from the you know management team in the consulting firm I was in, went full time into the business, and my wife was full-time, I was full-time, and then you know, we've grown uh from there.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: We're now a team of six, and yeah, here we are in in this new space.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that's like the short uh yeah, it's a short version of how we kind of got here.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: On on the business and the art and like taking photoside for people coming into that, how much what's the balance in percentage do you think between taking the art then trying to sell it and run the business?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I I if I think about it that we are a retail business and a product business, uh I think that helps us with create that differentiation in my mind.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously I have to create, you know, as a business, and and the product side falls largely uh to me, but you know, we are trying to create products because we are, you know, if you were a different retailer, you know, someone um like if you think about a lot of retailers, they are retailing someone else's product.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so if you go to JB HiFi, JB Hi-Fi is not making electronic goods or anything like that.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: But if you go to Apple, they do product development, they do the product creation, and then they're selling their own product.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: So they are, you know, they're direct-to-consumer type model.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's the type of places we're in where we're we're a product business that are designing and creating products and then we're selling our own products.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: LEM, effectively.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I probably make the distinction between that that, you know, there's the product creation side and then the actual retail side.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Look, the product creation, so if you view it in that sense, the retail side of the business probably consumes much more than the product development side because we're quite a narrow product range, um, you know, which is based around my photos ultimately.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I think uh the retail side of house probably consumes a lot more of my attention.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because at the end of the day, it's really sitting at the heart of both the retail side and the product side is the is the customer, right?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: We you have to be any business needs to be very focused on the customer.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: What does a customer want?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: What does a customer need, what is working for them, and you're spending a whole lot of time trying to work out, you know, what does the customer want?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: What do they need?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: What do we, what can we deliver them around in a product sense.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you're trying to then manage that as a as a business.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I mean there are products that we used to have that we no longer have, uh, and there are products that we have now that we didn't have a few years ago.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's reflective of the fact that we're trying to look at you know what our product offering is, you know, what what that makeup needs to be.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: But then in a retail sense, like the way I kind of talk about it is, you know, I got to wake up every day and and just solve two problems.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: How do we get more people in the door?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's through the physical door of the of the store, um, and through the you know, onto your website.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then the the second thing is, well, then how do we convert them?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so how do we get more people in the door and then how do we convert them once they are here?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that's it.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's an oversimplification of the of the whole process.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: Of the whole process.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I don't know if that answers your question or not.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: No, it does it definitely does.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I had a sneaking suspicion that yes, it's uh it's more like 85% selling the work and 15% actually capturing it.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think the challenge I think the challenge for when you're small like us is that I as a photographer am trying to essentially be, you know, we're not a big enough to call myself a CEO, but you know, you're trying to be the CEO of a of a business while you're also kind of quite low level in terms of creating the product.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I would like to get the business to the point where you know we essentially have a have a CEO or or you know, someone who is essentially doing that kind of role and managing the business.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and look, I'm never gonna totally step away from that because it's just, you know, but uh you know, where that stuff is is taken care of, but I'm also trying to do that.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think this type of business is is relatively unique, but it's not as unique as as you think.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I mean if you think about say a business that um makes cupcakes, you know, um, you know, there might be a a mum out there who makes some cupcakes on the side, she starts to create a cupcake business.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: But eventually, you know, as as that business grows, the person who's making the cupcakes that can ultimately be handed over to a different team and someone else that can make the cupcakes.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: In this case, you I can't hand over.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in terms of the business model that we've chosen to do, I can't hand over the the photography to someone else.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I mean, there's a business model that says, you know, we could just be a business that's selling your landscape photographs, so they don't have to be my works.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: But if we're running the business about the fact that it's around my works, then I've got to be creating the product.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then trying to do the rest.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, and again, like there's lots of different ways you can cut that.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we've just chosen a particular business model that has it that way, and but that's not to say that that's not the business model that, you know, um is the only one that's applicable or that, you know, um provides the market with with what it needs.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, yeah, that's just the model that we've chosen.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not necessarily the the right model or the or the only model.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And if you think about it from a business point of view, then you recognise that there's probably, you know, there's a limitless number of models that you could contemplate, but you probably come back down to really only a number of couple of viable options that you know work as a as a growing business.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Have you found over time with the different um new styles of houses um and stylings that you print what people buy for their houses changed as well for the styling of their home?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because I find that a lot of houses now are like they're like your gallery here, they're wide, they're open, they're white, they're bright.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: So have you found there's a bit of a difference in what that what used to get what what people used to buy versus what they buy now?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you know that that's the old saying the only constant is change.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think as a product business, you know, on that side of the house, our challenge is to make sure that we are producing and putting to market a product that matches what people want at the moment, that is in tune with with current trends or so forth.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: So to give you an example, I probably was a bit late to the game in respect of say aerial abstract type photography.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but you know, there is definitely a trend that has probably existed for the last couple of years and still, you know, definitely in play at the moment where people are wanting what I would call more abstract type art pieces on their walls, and there's a particular market for that.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it's probably only in the last kind of 12 or 18 months that I've been doing more of that aerial abstract type stuff.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: And we are now appealing to probably a different market.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's not to say that the more literal interpretation of the landscape that there's not a market for that.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: But as a business, we're sitting there looking at go, okay, you know, what is the product mix that we need to offer people?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, that is a that is a component of that.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um So I think, you know, you just constantly, again, putting the customer at the center of everything.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what is what does the customer want?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: What is the what does the customer need?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: But you also have to recognize that sometimes, I think, you know, there's a famous kind of well, there's a couple of famous quotes around this, you know, like from you know the guy that, you know, designed uh, you know, Harold Ford or whatever it was, you know, if he'd said, you know, if I asked people what they wanted, they would have asked for a faster steed, i.e., they didn't know anything else.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: They just, I want a faster horse that can get me there.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you've got to present something different to them.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: And Steve Jobs said something similar around, you know, the iPhone is that we can't just listen to customer feedback.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: We have to actually innovate.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: We've got to present something new.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then you'll sometimes people don't know what they actually want until they see they see it.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a little bit of that component too.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: So in a business, you know, that's about what can you do that's more innovative, that is a bit more entrepreneurial, that may be taking some risks.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and sometimes you've just got to test and adjust.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, there's sometimes things that we have done that we thought might get you know greater you know penetration in the market that hasn't, and then there's some other things that have that kind of surprised us.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: So uh but like any business, you've got you've got to keep testing and adjusting, but equally making sure that you're keeping the customer out of that.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: What piece do you think is probably sorry?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: You thought that wouldn't work, that was your biggest success.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh look, we had we had an interesting story around you know, we had a we had an interesting story around COVID.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, we I don't know if we would have made it through COVID if it wasn't for this.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I'll give you an example.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it's around jigsaw puzzles.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: So for us, you know, we were sitting there looking at what was going on around the world in terms of you know lockdowns and so forth, and it was like, hey, this is gonna come, you know, this is gonna come to Australia, you know, we're gonna get locked down at some point.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now, obviously, we're running a physical, you know, bricks and mortar type retail business as as well as online.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we were sitting there going, well, hey, it's it's probably highly likely that we are gonna have to, you know, shut the, shut the doors and and not be able to trade.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: And what can we do about that?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we've obviously got an online business as well as part of that mix, but you know, was there something that we could do that uh you know would actually help people while they're locked down and things like that, but it was also help us.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we I I still don't know exactly how we kind of came up with this idea.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but essentially we contemplated, you know, do we do jigsaw puzzles?
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're very big on making sure that everything we do is Australian-made where we can.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um so all our uh artworks and gifts are all uh, you know, everything that we do with artworks are all Australian-made and we've got Australian-made accreditation and all those kind of things.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because I guess we're big on making sure that we're not only delivering a premium quality product, but that we're supporting the Australian economy and local jobs where we can.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: So look, there's lots of options.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: We could have gone to China around jigsaw puzzles, but we found what was at the time, you know, the only kind of real manufacturer of jigsaw puzzles in in Australia.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Approached them, you know, got some samples, and you know, that was all like, hey, um, yeah, ordered them, got an initial line of stock, got them up on the website, and uh kid you not, we got them up on the website three hours before SCOMO said I declared jigsaw puzzles an essential item.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh fantastic.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: You did this, Jack.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so I did a uh I did just like a cheeky, I hardly ever used my personal Facebook.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, not on it very much, but at the time I did a cheeky personal post on my Facebook page.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: It went something along the lines of, you know, um SCOMO just declared, you know, jigsaw puzzles an essential item.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Look what we just launched.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Q.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: This was yeah, after everyone went crazy for toilet paper.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, Q the panic buying of jigsaw puzzles.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yes.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: I kid you not, within five or ten minutes we start we're selling jigsaw puzzles to friends of mine that were on Facebook, right?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that's yeah, I've got a massive Facebook, you know, friends group or anything like that.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: And we're like, oh, we're kind of onto something.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: So at the time we had outsourced social media um to to it to a team.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think I I rang one of the girls there and said, Hey, just grab my personal um Facebook post and just literally put that on a business page, yeah, you know, because I think we might be onto something here.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we we kind of were, and so as a result of that, um, the media in Australia at the time was kind of going crazy for wanting to have stories about local businesses that were innovating, pivoting, and doing all that kind of stuff.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I ended up doing, you know, ABC, you know, radio, then it led to ABC News, then it led to local news and uh a whole lot of stuff here.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Then I ended up doing uh, you know, then Channel 9 News nationally did a did a story on us, and we sold hundreds and hundreds of puzzles.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was like three or four hundred puzzles in the first hour after that and it just went crazy.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: The problem was when we now we had a second problem, was that we were just one of the old customers of this supplier in um you know that we had at the time, and they just could not keep up with demand.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so then we had this massive issue of now which we had all these customers that were trying to support us, then we couldn't get stock and all these kind of things.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it was just this really careful kind of balancing match of how we kind of manage customers' expectations while still trying to deliver that.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: So we ended up turning our lounge room into a fulfillment centre.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: We had uh we had my dad going to the factory, and then we later on we ended up these issues where you know you couldn't cross the border and stuff like that.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, driving the full wheel drive, his four-wheel drive across the border from Victoria, and we were doing what I was joking was like a drug deal at Holbrook where he'd literally back his four-wheel drive up, I'd back mine up, and throw and we just like get all these puzzles, and then so then you know, come back to Canberra into the driveway, and then that night we're just like all we're doing is for filling, you know, all these puzzles, yeah, and then just like rinse and repeat.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then you know, we got to the point where then you know, some of the logistics was allowed to cross the border, so we'd have a truck turn up with all these jigsaw puzzles in our driveway, and yeah.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, we'd literally like I've got photos of just like our entire lounge, like just moving, and then we'd just take an entire full drive weather puzzles to Australia Post the next morning, and we're just like, you don't want to get through as much stuff.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: So um, it's just crazy.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: The Pablo Escovar of Puzzles Prohibition.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then so that was just it was crazy, but it taught us a lot, like we we learned a lot during that um period around you know what was working, what was not working on the website, how we can better streamline a bunch of our backend processes, all those kind of things.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: And look, we just ended up being really honest with everyone.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we ran into a lot of issues in terms of just the timeline, but you know, we ended up getting to a point where it was taking probably in one case, you know, at a period there it was nearly a month from when people had ordered their puzzle.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, hey, we're in lockdown, I want the puzzle now.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so we just took the view again, trying to put the customer at the center of everything, just over-communicated.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, hey, you know, our supplier just can't keep up.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: We're doing our best, we'll get up to you as soon as we can.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: And most people were understanding, they were like, yep, get it.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's a couple of people like, I I wanted this and I want it now.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Can I have a refund?
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Fine.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we yeah, well, in the end, like the number of refunds that we did was like really, really small because I think we did a good job of trying to be on the front foot with customers.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, look, we had some unhappy customers, but it was a very small minority.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think most people appreciate the fact that we're trying to be open and honest.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that like either there was a delay beforehand, you know.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so look, that when you know that led to a whole lot of um other things that we were able to test and and change around the business as a result of those jigsaw puzzles.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think you know, we got locked down twice in terms of the you know, the business and having to close.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: Had we not done jigsaw puzzles and some of the challenges that presented around other supply chain challenges.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we had you know, I mean, we do frame prints, you know, we the supplier that we had at the time just couldn't get frames, you know.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: So then, you know, we ran into issues around that, and that led us to start to look at other suppliers and things like that, and who was being a bit more proactive about their supply chain and things like that.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: So that whole period probably forced us to reevaluate a lot of parts about the uh the business, and it's nothing like kind of having that kind of stress tested to really identify where some of those issues are and you know, other people you're partnering with, are they able to you know, do you think they're actually going to be able to support you as you try and grow and go forward?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that's our kind of little jigsaw puzzle jumping into the deep end there.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I mean uh so my wife kind of jokes about that you know, she had to convince me to come by, you know, photos in got a thousand pieces, you know.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: How big are the puzzles actually?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, so we've got we've got two types of puzzles.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: So we've got one that is essentially there's an international standard for jigsaw puzzles, believe it.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: So really.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so they're like so.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like a so they're um they're 70 by 50 centimetres for they're the standard, you know, 1,000 PCS, a national standard for jigsaw puzzles.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then we've got uh panoramic ones, which are I think they're about 95 centimeters wide, so nearly a meter wide when they're when they're finished.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: They're like about 40 five games.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so they're a decent, um, so they're a decent size.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then you know we've changed since change manufacturer, they're still Australian-made, uh, improved the quality and things like that.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: But at the time, I mean the challenge for us was sourcing them as Australian-made.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: We had no bargaining power with the supplier because we had no record of you know purchase history or anything like that.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: So we were retailing them at the time for like$75, and our margin was atrocious.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we weren't actually making that much money.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so we would our volume was okay, but we weren't making that much money.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so then it came down to again, you know, just trying to then renegotiate some of those terms and and and look at that.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, interesting times.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Was it hard?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's it hard to choose the photos for the to put on there, like how hard was it?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, again, just you know, as a product, you know, if you're a a retail business, you're just trying to look at the data.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, you know, to start with, you know, we were just trying to think about it from a point of view of okay, well, we're trying to supply these to people across Australia.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: We probably need a bit of geographic spread that that covers Australia that people can resonate with.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're trying to look at well, which ones are not going to be too hard, but which ones are enough of a challenge.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then again, you know, like ones that we thought would be popular, weren't popular, ones that we thought that wouldn't be popular.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so again, you know, try when you start to do that volume, you start to get good data that that drives that behaviour.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: And now you know we start to see some consistent themes, you know, around different product sets and what's popular and not.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, definitely jigsaws, you have to have that fine mix between enough difference between the different areas to be able to match.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Also, if it's simple, we'd like it can't match them together.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's this whole subculture culture of uh you know jigsaw puzzle uh people that you know really evaluate the quality of jigsaw puzzles and and all these kind of things.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, I've learned a whole lot more about jigsaw puzzles than I thought I ever would.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: So And we've continued to evolve and change those, you know, the the types of puzzles that we have now is different to what we've had previously.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we're probably up to about our third or fourth iteration of of puzzles now um versus what we had uh originally.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, amazing story.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to jump into the business and the gallery side's fantastic, but I'd love to jump into your work.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how it's clean, it's crisp, and it's bright and vibrant.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: How long did it take for you to find that style and what works for for you?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: I know that's like a loaded question because it's like how how long's a press of stuff.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I don't know that I've ever tried to find a style as such.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think look, my approach has probably evolved over over time.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think look, I just when I first started, I probably just went out and I guess my photos are about no matter what I'm kind of photographing generally, I'm just really trying to capture what is before me at the at the time.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: So look, I can sit back and I can look at my stuff objectively and recognize that I have a style if you if you want to put it that way.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I that's not necessarily when I'm out there trying to take photographs, it's not necessarily how I'm kind of thinking about it.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, what I'm really trying to do is when I'm there, I'm trying to make sure that I'm so I run the question that I run through in my head is would someone pay to put this on their wall?
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's the actual thought that goes through my head, you know.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes I'll be driving with someone uh and they'll be like, Oh, that'd make a you know, look at that tree, that'd make a great photograph.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just like, you know, no, you know, because I can see you know, you talk about clean or simple, you don't see too much other stuff around it or you know, have everyone's like, no one's gonna pay to put that on their wall.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so that's probably the test that I go through in terms of when I'm trying to choose scenes.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: That seems quite clinical, and it's not necessarily that clinical, but I guess I'm trying to capture a scene that if someone was there with me, that then when they see the photo, they go, that creates the same feeling and you know, the connection that they have and go, Oh, but they feel like they're there.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: So look, I'm quite I think the more I do this, you know, I take less photos and I'm probably more selective about what I do and and don't take.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: And look, I I probably look back on some of my earlier photos now, and I'm not cringe, but you know, sometimes like I don't know if they're up to the standard that we want to be doing, and so you know, um slowly probably colour a few of them out of the collection, or you just recognize that they don't sell and you go, well, they probably don't sell for a reason, you know.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um so look, I think yeah, a style look, I I shoot things now that I probably wouldn't have photographed previously as well, you know, and so I think that you just become more open to it.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think the what I find is the more it's you have to connect, you have to connect with the landscape in a way.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is I think you know, you have to try and spend some time.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: I just I spent a couple months ago, I just spent a month in the Kimberley, and you know, when you it's one area of Australia I've never been to before.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think, you know, when you turn up, you know, the tendency is you're just overawed by like this is all new, man.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: I want to photograph that, I want to photograph that, I want to photograph that.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, you just have to kind of slow down a little bit and actually start to just feel it a little bit more and recognize, okay, which are the bits or the scenes or what have you that are actually that encapsulate this area?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: How is it that I'm feeling at the time and what you know represents that?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think you can kind of go in too quickly or too try and be a bit too fast versus actually trying, you know, what is it about this landscape that makes it impressive?
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: What is it that is unique to this area?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, there are so many boabs in the Kimberley, it's not funny, but you know, how do you find the one or the couple that you actually kind of sum up a little bit about what is it that about boabs when you're in the Kimberley that you think look great?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, you just can't go and photograph every boab because you're not stuck in every five metres.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, how do you find that one you know that speaks to you or that's you know that stands to your eyes as you know what it is about that area or something?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: What other elements can you fit into the scene that highlight that boab that make, like you said, completely or you leave it out that you leave out?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's probably the thing for me, is probably what do you try and leave out so that you know there aren't all these other distracting elements so that you make a photo that is just yeah, the focus is just that tree.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's just about the tree, it's not about a bunch of other things that are around it necessarily.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's something I definitely abide by, is uh it's not what you put in, it's what you leave out of it.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's for sure.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I think you know that and becomes a more simple image, it becomes easier for people to interpret um and know what they're looking at.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: But then equally, like I people say, Oh, you've got quite clean, simple images.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I look at some of mine, like you know, there's these couple of snow gums here on the on the wall.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't necessarily see them as clean, simple images, but if you look at that big one there, there is nothing else in that photo other than just that one snow gum.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there isn't a whole lot of the you know the terrain behind it or the terrain in front of it or what have you, you know, there is no doubt about what that photograph is.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now, look, I'm not saying that that that's just how I what I wanted to do at the time and how I was thinking what I wanted to capture, because I guess how if it went wider or further back, there's other things that start to compete for the story about that.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, the story of that idiot is about this snow gum, the incredible colours because the bark's wet and it's all icy, but the snow blowing across it, like the moment you start to, like I said, you know, step back or go wide, I probably couldn't step back because it'd be hitting a rock, but um you know, you make it you're introducing other elements, whereas there is no doubt about my mind what that is about.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, therefore that's what people resonate with.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I I guess what you're saying as well, if you shoot wider or you shoot closer, you kind of lose that perspective where if you when when you people when you guys come down to Scott's gallery and you open up you you you see that print straight away, so you walk in the door because it's uh it's definitely a statement piece.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: What size is that, Scott?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so that one's 1.8 meters high.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a decent size.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, we've got a couple of others lined up at the back so that when that one moves or we decide to change it, you know, we've got some other big, big statement pieces.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I guess yeah, that's just how I see it.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean that I'm not saying that that's how anyone else, you know, should should see it.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and that's just how I was feeling at the time.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, maybe if I was there, you know, in a in a different time, or you know, I was I don't know, got out of the car in a different way or something, I might have, you know, seen it in a different.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: I guess what I was trying to say is that this the the way that you have composed that shot, it gives it that sense of scale, that added bit of sense of scale.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: So look, I mean that shot there, you know, I mean, that was uh that was probably about two hours in snowshoes up to the top of the tree line there.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I knew that the moment I pulled the camera, so that tree is just like it was a wild weather warning, all the ski resorts are shut.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, no one should be out, some like perfect weather for what I want to do, no one around, it's great, you know, head out and and do that.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I knew that as soon as I pulled the camera out, because I hadn't actually put the camera in any kind of waterproof stuff, you know, in my bag in that sense.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I knew the moment that I pulled the camera out, it was going to get covered in snow and ice, and so I probably only had a couple of shots to try and get.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I you know, I guess I was trying to make the what was going through my head is you know, I've only kind of got one shot at this to try and get it.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what is it that is why am I drawn to this particular tree as opposed to some of the others?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: This one, the colours was stronger than the others, but it was also about how do I just capture that, you know, the snow and the ice built up on you know where the wind's blowing it, yeah.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Try and capture that.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: But without, you know, I've shot it fast enough to kind of freeze the tree, which is good and bad, because sometimes I feel like some movement probably would have conveyed a bit more of that, but that was a choice I made at the time.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, still still you can see the snow and ice kind of being we can still see the ocean.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that capture is this in Kosyosko National Park.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: It for me, it captures the feel of that weather because of you've frozen the snow, Cavacross, because when you're there getting peppered by that.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: You are literally.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: Which can't be like you just come back from there and you got belted.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: But that's when you get the shots.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I guess that's what I'm trying to.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: I guess so, in terms of if you talk about styles or even like, you know, the the snow gum next to it there, you know, what I'm trying to do is not trying to capture these scenes in nice blue skies or anything like that.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now, these snow gums didn't get formed and get didn't get, you know, like that big old one down there.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they didn't get all twisted and gnarly because they were in a nice, uh, you know, easy-to-grow environment.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that one it just gets weighed down by, you know, snow and ice, and the tree just gets twisted and contorted over time and it's outside area.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you actually try and tell that story?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's no point trying to get that in a nice blue, you know, sad day, because that's not, in my mind, that's not the story.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: So my challenge is how do I try and get there when the weather is more inclement, but is actually more representative of you know the story behind these trees.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you look at that one there, you know, that tree there is just weighed down by you know a whole lot of snow and ice.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I was camped out in the snow for a couple of nights for that one, and then overnight, you know, there's a good dump of snow overnight, but just really, really soft and no wind.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: So now you've got snow on top of the ice and you know, a couple of animal footprints there that just whereas, you know, if I'd captured that uh, you know, without snow in the tree or whatever, it just doesn't convey that kind of story.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: For the listeners, that one's called Alpine Survivor.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I definitely reckon you should go onto his website to like it's like a perfect storm when you get those conditions.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, I hope it's not windy in the morning so that everything's everything's still in place.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one bit of wind comes and it you're like, So you have to be there.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean I you know, I was I knew that I probably wouldn't be able to see the thing, but I still got up before sunrise to and I'd I actually found that tree in summer.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what I do for some of these snow gums, is I'll find them when the weather's a bit easier and know which one I want to go back to in winter because trying to then you know exploring winter is a little bit harder.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've got a bit more of a destination or a particular tree that you want to go and find, um, then I think that makes it easier.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, when I got up that morning and given what had happened overnight, I was like, okay, I wanted to go to that tree.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it wasn't, I didn't have to walk.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's probably probably wasn't too far, it was probably only 500 metres or something from where I was camped.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it was relatively straightforward.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, you know that again, like you said, Calbe, you know, that there's hasn't been any wind yet to knock the snow off or anything like that.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but again, yeah, that's what you've got to do to try and get those kind of shots with those um kind of conditions.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to revisit some of those spots multiple times or or what have you.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess what I'm trying to do is capture some of that kind of mood and drama that makes those environments as you know, yeah.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: And look, I don't do that on every shot, you know, I'm not gonna lie.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, sometimes, you know, here in Canberra, if I go and shoot a shot down the lake, I'll literally just get up and you know drive down or walk down to the lake and you know, yeah, there's a lot less involved in some of those.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: But um, again, you know, even with those, I'm not trying to get a nice blue, sunny day over the lake.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to get a bit of fog, a bit of mood, or or things like that that really kind of tell the story.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: Nice, nice.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: With your trees, you're saying you do a bit of planning in summer.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: What level of planning goes into that?
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: Do you like pin drop a tree so you can find it no matter what weather to get back with a GPS or using a compass?
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's in my head.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: In your head?
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: I like I that um that's a good question.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: What is a different, right?
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: So now I guess I especially in some of those Alpine areas, I I spend a lot of time there.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: I used to spend a fair bit of time, so even as a as a kid, I spent a bit of time in Northeast Victoria and things like that.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'd walked up feather top when I was you know younger and things like that before well before thinking about photography or whatever.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess I've always enjoyed the outdoors.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: I've always you know enjoyed being outdoors.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I just the more time you spend in those places, you've got natural references.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm probably less I try to avoid.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Technology when I'm out, if that makes sense, because I guess for me, landscape photography for me is about getting outdoors, probably about disconnecting from the you know, kind of modern world in a way, and just really getting to kind of get out and explore, but just appreciate the natural world.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm probably trying to get away from technology when I'm out there as much as I can, where really the only technology that I'm trying to drive is the is the camera itself at the time of capture.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I'm definitely not pulling out my phone.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'll occasionally, sometimes in summer, I might, if I think I've found maybe a tree with a good composition, I might take a photograph of that tree because I think at the time that it's a great idea and it come back.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then I never even like I forget the fact that I've then taken a photo of that tree.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like I actually at the time I'm like, oh, I should take a photo of this, but then I never end up using it.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: So as a reference, because it's that's probably helped embedded in my head.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: So no, I generally will just like this winter, I had a whole bunch of snow gums in mind that I wanted to try and get, but it's been a pretty cruppy winter.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it hasn't been the best this time.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: Hasn't been very good at all.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: I lost a tent this year.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Never mind on our on the saddle at Albino and North Coast, we're like we had a beautiful night, and the next morning, straight after Braggie, the wind just comes straight in, change direction, tore my tent to pieces.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: We mailed.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: We're like, let's get out of here.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, yeah, and the but the more time you spend in those environments, you start to know the landscape, you start to know what chills are where, you start to know where things are, and um that's just again familiarity.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I I love that aspect of um like your photography and like say Carl's and and other photographers, they actually travel around and they find these locations.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that's done enough um these days.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think people are too too worried about finding the quick fix to get the find, to get the shot, like know where it is and and things like that.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, it's definitely I think more people need to be like you and and go out and search, actually just get out in the environment, look for look for something instead of asking.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: I uh when I signed my book, I um I normally I normally write never stop exploring, you know, and that's not a general generally uh you know the approach that I you know try and take is you know for me like I liken landscape photography to the way some people think about fishing.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, if you go out and you do fly fishing, you know, half of that is just being a being outdoors experience.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: That if you don't catch a fish, it kind of doesn't matter.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you've the point is is you got out, you got away from it all, you're kind of disconnected.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's a landscape photography is is similar.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: And look, that's why like I don't I've never been into photography as such, right?
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've never shot a wedding, I don't shoot you know kids or any of that kind of stuff.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: The only thing I really do is is the landscape and that is yeah, so for me it is an excuse to get outdoors and to appreciate that and just to go explore.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you know, I end up coming across areas um that I wouldn't otherwise get to see or witness, and even you know, in the Kimberley, like end up flying over areas that you probably wouldn't fly over otherwise, like if you just did a touristy kind of route that the helicopter company might you know take you on or something like that.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas I guess I'm trying to go, okay, well, what else can we uncover or discover?
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: And look, I mean, let's be honest, there is less and less in the world now that is discovered or undiscovered, and in Australia there's probably not very much at all.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I think you know, sometimes how do you just try and get a new or different angle on it?
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: And look, I mean, there's plenty of shots you know that I've got that uh, you know, the you know, the same.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, look, there's two Uluru shots here.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's one up there that, you know, is the classic shot of Uluru, it's taken from the car park, it's the same angle that you know a million other people have, or probably a whole lot more, have have taken.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's not necessarily anything massively unique about that, but then you know, a lot of people, I I haven't seen many photos from that particular angle before of that one of Uluru.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but a lot of people like that because it is different, they can still recognise it as Uluru, but yeah um, you know, it's not something that they're as familiar with.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in a business sense, I'm trying to have a bit of both so that depending upon the type of customer, you get something.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that's again when you've then got a bit of a business overlay to it as well.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got to have the the lookout type shot sometimes, but also I want to try and challenge people in a different way to see a landscape.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: You guess you get the hero shot and then you then you explore.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not commercial, you're not gonna stay alive.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: I uh that's one thing I think.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: So you could capture the commercial shot as well.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's just look, it's a landscape.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: No idea.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: There's no different ideas.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that the point is that I would make is at the end of the day, you know, you are running a business and you have to give your customers what they what they want.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh when you view it in in that sense, then yeah, it is it is a commercial business and you have to capture what is ultimately going to sell.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I think you know, you do that right.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I listened to one of your podcasts the other day, I think it was Danny that you interviewed, and I got, you know, I think she made a comment that you know some of the lecturers or something were telling her that, you know, oh you can't make any money out of landscape photography or something like that.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, who are these Muppets?
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, um I just don't understand why I mean I don't I don't understand why you would not be encouraging people to have more of an entrepreneurial mindset to to be out there and and find a market for a product.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: Let's be honest.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, talk about in in our case, you know, well, I mean, the size of that addressable market, you know, is huge, right?
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, it's massive.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and like we're talking, you know, in just in Australia alone, it's it's huge.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: And there is no landscape photographer that's even touched the sides of that.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it is it is dominated by big, you know, big, big companies, you know, not bootscape photographers or anything like that, you know, and landscape photographers don't even touch the side of what that addressable market is.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just I don't know who these people are that try and provide some of that advice that, you know, just they clearly don't understand business.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, they're probably teaching some of that stuff because they haven't been able to make a go of it themselves.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: And well, they can't.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's just I think that's just I really struggle with.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we've had a couple of staff, you know, that have worked for us who have been studying your different, you know, arts fields at ANU.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, they have very it seems to me that, you know, there is this push to try and teach people that are studying some stuff that, you know, this whole idea that you've got to be a struggling artist and you have to really kind of struggle for your art and that, you know, it takes time.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, what business school or other industry would be teaching people that?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they the whole government sector is trying to about encourage innovation, is about trying to encourage entrepreneurship and how quickly can you take something to market and grow this into a big and great business?
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: The idea that you're trying to tell people that they should, you know, not taking that approach and it's going to take them forever to get there.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, how can you accelerate this development and so forth?
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, you know, you know, anyone that's listening, I would just encourage them to not listen to that kind of naysayer type approach and actually think about it in a business sense and how do you you know accelerate you know your own business and think about it from an entrepreneurial point of view.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: It is funny you say that because um we recorded one with Glenn McKimmon as well.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: And he when when we asked the question, like, do you recommend like would you recommend people to take their like next level in learning?
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: And he said business or the marketing cool.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't say anything about it, like he he he was kind of against the uh whole um institution of learning photography at uni said, but if you want to be photographer, the best thing you can go and do is be learn a marketing or a business degree.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's funny.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: I said that's a healthy.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: But that's I don't the point is that's not unique to photography.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's the same on anything.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: Just get if you've got a product or a you know, if you've got an idea that you want to take to market, um but stop worrying about the product.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, start worrying about it.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry about how you have you know how you're gonna get that to market, how you get in front of an audience and all those kind of things.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, this is not a this is not a novel idea or a new idea or anything, but I don't understand why people in the kind of arts or creative field somehow think that they're any different to the entire rest of the economy that understands this.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I I just I I struggle to understand why the people think there's a difference in the in an arts or creative sense to the entire rest of the economy.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's just it just baffles me.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: I saw an artist the other day from Abstract magazine.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a uh a painter that she had this massive painting and just had across, as I said, support living artists.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it I thought it was really catchy uh because it's like support living people because I think but I work so good until they die.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a complete false.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I I struggle with like I I push back again.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be I'll be honest, I push back against that.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: You you know, that is an artist essentially saying, You should just support me because I'm an artist.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: Create a product that delivers value to a customer and they will exchange that product for money.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean you imagine if you know Apple went out there and said, I just support us because we're a business.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, no, no, deliver stuff.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: Develop and deliver a product that a customer is willing to pay for.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's this kind of mentality that somehow society owe, because you're an you've identified as an artist, but somehow society owes you and you should be kind of supported or funded.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, just create a product that people are willing to pay for.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: And those that understand that and create something and create, you know, be creative, but create something that someone sees value in and is willing to reward you for that.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um I really struggle with that.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a good business mindset.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: I I love how it comes through and how passionate you are that delivered that.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: I do because I just think I get frustrated, and I, you know, we've got you know, one staff per minute.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: I just get frustrated that we are not setting people up, you know, through an education system for success, that they are, you know, mentally kind of being held back in terms of the frameworks that they've been given.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it frustrates me that you know we are doing a disservice to people who you know are probably way more creative or anything than you know the three of us will ever be, or what have you, and that they had been they're not being encouraged or supported to in the way that I think they they should.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I just don't know any other industry that that thinks that way.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I I really struggle with that.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe it's because I haven't come up through that system and I I'm lucky that I can kind of look at it objectively and you know, the former management consultant kind of mindset that I I have, you know, looks at things through that lens.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I just I do I get quite frustrated and passionate when I see people who have a skill.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, could you imagine if we just said to every chef who went through chef school or whatever the kind of all the technical kind of trade training that they went through and said, I don't never aspire to own a restaurant, never aspire to be a world class.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, could you it's just defies logic.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's absurd.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just I mean, I just you cannot comprehend why anyone would say that to me.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: You think you think you think it's an old mindset on society where I could be uh artists can't make money because it's yeah, like you said, the worker bee society where you need to fit into what we say you should do and just follow the bouncy ball.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I think it's a very old set mindset that just keeps coming through the generations, I think.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's because people haven't been taught that they can be creative and make a living.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: They can.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and look, you know, you know, but but but so the answer is they can, and there's pr plenty of proof points to show that they can.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the size of you know, the addressable market is huge.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: And to to say otherwise just you know represents a complete lack of understanding of probably basic economics, you know, um in my mind.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that probably sounds harsh, and I apologise to you know anyone that you know gets offended by that, but it's just reality.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: We live sometimes.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: The hardest truth needs to be said.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: We have an economy where people it's a mutual exchange of value.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: I hand over money in return for some someone delivering something of value to me.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, art as a product or anything like that isn't is is no different.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't understand why people somehow think that it is different.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: I and maybe I'm ignorant, and but I don't, in an economic sense, I don't I don't understand that there's any difference.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of products, you mentioned it before.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the process of making your book, which is a fantastic book, by the way.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: I've I personally have one.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: I know Carl definitely has one.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: What if in the car?
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're gonna go just sign it for me.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, firstly, I mean, thank you both for you know f for purchasing it.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: I I think I I've had this discussion with you just the other day, Dean.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, you know, I think too many other again, probably goes to this mindset about what we're creating with people.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: I we have plenty of people uh sometimes when I'm in and sometimes when I'm not, you know, come into the gallery who are you know self-identified photographers and you know they don't they don't they they don't even buy the book.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now look, I don't expect everyone to to you know resonate with my work or or have but I'm amazed at the number of people that expect other people to buy their work, but then they don't you know think that they should buy any other you know person's work.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, how are you gonna grow a business or how are you gonna get other people to to value your work if you don't value the work of other of other people?
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so again, you know, I think that sits around this kind of mindset that you know I think is is fundamentally kind of wrong around are we setting people up for success?
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a challenge.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so the book, um, again, you know, in a product sense, I think you know, we recognized that we needed uh we needed a book for for multiple reasons.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was actually again, you know, this is the kind of creative kind of conflict between you know me as a creative, if you want to think of it that way, and then you know the the kind of business side.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I I didn't want to bring out the book.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is I didn't think that I had enough photos from around enough of Australia to to bring out the book.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, my kind of tension is you know, I couldn't bring out a book on Australia unless I had, you know, kind of in my mind, yeah, every single kind of corner and you know and area of Australia covered.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's the that's the photographer kind of creative you know um aspect of me.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: But then the business uh aspect, which is where yeah, my wife is great because she's got an accounting and commercial finance background and and yep, prior is well, no, well, have we got enough photos to uh you know create a product that people will like and will resonate with?
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: So in the end, you know, there's a that's a book uh you know on Australia.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's about 200, just over 200 photos from our from around the country.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, that book, uh, you know, we export that book.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a fair chunk of what we've sold over that book, you know, has has gone overseas.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're promoting Australia as well.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so yeah, just the sheer uh you know uptake and interest that we've had in that book, you know, says that my you know kind of hypothesis around that it needs to be a fully encompassing geographic spread of Australia.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, again, that might sound good in an artistic sense, but you know, in a commercial sense, no, min viable products says no, we've got enough to to make a book, let's give it a crack.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you know, the the commercial success that we've had with that book uh you know represents that.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: And again, you know, that's probably the you know, the art side would probably say, oh no, no, it's not complete.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: You haven't got everything, you know, I didn't have the Kimberly in it as an example.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: So how can you have a book on Australia without the Kimball?
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: You could always make another book.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like another book.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's the I think that's the again trying to take that cum commercial you know perspective versus just a straight uh you know, do I have have everything covered?
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: And look, you know, you can't you and then even if uh you know you had every bit covered, someone I'm sure would find you know an area that we didn't have covered.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: I've never had anyone come back and give us feedback.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: We've got lots of feedback on the book, and no one's ever said, Oh, you it's not a complete geographic coverage of Australia.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, no one says that, because you know no one we get the Well, I'll tell you what I found was great about your book, is it just it's it's got Lego.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's not everyone else.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: And when I look at the book, I was like, I love this because it did it is actually different to a lot of other people's work.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: And your composition style, even though I think it's just you don't call it a style, I don't think.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um for me, I I recognise that it's your work straight away.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that adds up on your social media or you look at it and you go, that's how it's the brightness.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_00: I love how poppy the work is, and and your snow work for me.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think your work was the first work that made me want to go into the Alpine.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, mm-hmm.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's I think it's a fantastic book.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I think you did a fantastic job.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't matter because speed matters in business, and if you're gonna wait till you shoot every corner, you're gonna be 95 years old to get trying to shoot all the people.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's avoiding.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was even the same, yeah, when we uh when we first opened the Gowery.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, I there are photographers out there who have got a much more extensive collection of Australian images than than I do.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, my concern was uh, you know, in terms of when we first opened the the Gurry, the previous GUI, was you know, have I actually got enough you know photos to to essentially not justify, but you know, to legitimize, you know, having a Gowry.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the thing is, is the number of images in my collection is not what's holding the business back.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's your mind, right?
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's at the end of the day, it's just it's business fundamentals.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, are we in front of enough people?
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: Is our you know, are we getting the product in front of our target audience?
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, um, I think a lot of photographers are like, oh, you know, they're just really hell-bent on trying to have this massive collection or what have you.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, that's not what's holding you back.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, in a business sense, you are probably spending far too much time out taking photos and not enough time trying to grow the business.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's like you want to know why your business is not growing, stop taking photos.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like if I stopped taking if I stopped taking photos for the next 12 months, you could grow your business, the business would still grow.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty sure I think I heard Tom Putt say that um on a podcast.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was on Light Minded, I think it might have been.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he was talking about he goes, um, he doesn't take anything new until something sells, or he's got enough photographs, like he doesn't need to take anything new at the moment because he's out taking photos, like he's got stuff on the walls he can sell.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: He's got backwards, he's got something.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: Does workshops like 45 workshops a month every month for the whole world.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I guess yeah, I mean I was I've had this conversation with with Tom, right?
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_00: What business are you in?
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think he's in the he's in the tour business, I think.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's right, you know.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: So if you you know, um you've got to work out, I think, yeah, what business you're in.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_00: This is something I've got out of.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: Are you the kind of audience that are buying workshops are quite different to the audience that you know are buying artworks?
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you wonder why your business, you know, you're not selling as many artworks as you want, well, it's because you're you've got a confused offering.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, people don't know whether you're a tour business or you're an artwork business.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like which one?
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: Just choose one and be really good at that.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, a big thing that I learned you know from a management consulting stance is you know, and every bit of Harvard research over many, many years essentially supports this proposition is that the businesses, the best businesses in the world are focused on you know, their core capabilities and not other things.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's really clear, they have a very, very precise view on what business they are in and like get rid of anything that is in unrelevant adjacencies and things like that, you know.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that is hard to for people to hear sometimes, and I think it's hard for people to execute against because they are trying to balance their own personal, you know, creative desires versus making hard business decisions.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think those that you know, and I this is across every industry.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, yeah, people have got to focus on their core capabilities and go to market with, you know, very, very clear value proposition.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, even if you split that into two different businesses, if you're the boss or the CEO, you're now trying to run two different businesses.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't work, right?
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_00: So your intention split, you know, it just it's just and like it's hard for people to to um you know hear that.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and I see it across the board where people are like, oh, but if I you know there's another potential revenue stream there or what have you.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_00: But the moment you start doing that and focusing on whatever that other you know revenue stream might be, you're taking yourself away from what is the core business that you you shouldn't be trying to do.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: So look, I I'm I think part of our success has been we have been very, very deliberate and clear and even and and continue to kind of narrow this down.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we say no to a lot of opportunities.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, like I'm quite clear now that you know we're not in the service, we are a product business and a retail business.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't do commercial work, I don't do commercial landscape kind of stuff, um kind of thing, unless it's like tourism Australia or a couple of things like that, where we're very quite narrow about the kind of how that fits with a couple of other clients.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, um, because you know, if I go and you know do something else, then that's time that I wasn't focused on the business or focused on our core product or things like that.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that um that's just really good business practice, I think.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_00: And again, these are just my perspectives, right?
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_00: So stay as traditional yourself for different different things, but I think you know, there's it's hard to argue against, you know, a pretty good mountain of evidence from you know some pretty top kind of business schools and so forth around you know what makes a successful business or not.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're trying to create quite different products to very different audiences and markets, you know, yeah, you you might they might each kind of work, but they're not gonna they're not gonna accelerate or exceed and achieve you know high performance in the way that if you were just focused on one.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's why we're very clear that we are focused on delivering premium quality, you know, Australian artworks and gifts.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 1:04:53
  unknown: Yep.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's amazing that you can actually uh it's it's a testament that you can do it.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's very inspiring because I uh like you said, it's people I think struggle trying to get that off the ground.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think they think about too much?
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of just narrowing it down.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_00: I look, I think I think any successful business, whether you're in you know, the crowd space or not, is you have to be really clear about you know what market, what business are we in?
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh you know, a a restaurant, you know, we just talked about restaurants before, but you know, a restaurant that is you know, is very clear about you know, are they a high-end restaurant?
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_00: Are they offering Australian cuisine?
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_00: Are they offering you know modern fusion?
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: Are they offering traditional Italian or whatever?
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, a business and a restaurant that's trying to do a bit of all of that, you know, is never going to be as successful as these guys have established a brand that says if I want the top notch Japanese, you know, sushi, then that's the business I go to.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_00: The Japanese sushi restaurant doesn't oh, if you want a side of Italian pasta, yeah, right?
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, they have built a brand and established the SL.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: As you know, a top Japanese sushi brand.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then that's what they can grow, build, and that's what they've established themselves as.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think when you start to be quite confused, you know, as a consumer, are they in the marketplace?
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_00: Are you in the artwork space?
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_00: Are you in the workshop space?
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_00: Are you in the framing space?
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_00: Are you in this space?
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, like, which business are you in?
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're spreading your marketing, spreading your advertising.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you've got a bit of everything.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's not as clear.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're not a specialist.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_00: So people want to go to someone that they know is just, you know, as a specialist versus and so that's again, that's just my you know point of view.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's been, you know, that's informed by my own, you know, business background prior to my own business and so forth and and and watching lots of others.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it's hard for people to hear sometimes, but uh, you know, don't take my word for it, just look around the economy.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what do Harvey Norman do?
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, right?
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_00: They are you know specialists in in what they do, you know.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh look at all the big brands, go and look up ASX Top 100, and you'll be really clear about what they're doing, what they do, and what they don't do.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean BHP, one of the biggest steps, you know, when I was I uh did some stuff with BHP in the past, you know, their strategy, you know, they are one of the biggest companies in the world, and their strategy was one sentence long.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_00: We will own and operate uh large, long life something around resource extraction.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it was like really, you know, one of the biggest companies in the world.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_00: So if someone came to the CEO with a, you know, an idea that says, Oh, we want to enter a joint partnership, you know, in the Hunter Valley, you would just like point at the thing and say, where does it say we do joint partnerships?
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_00: We will own and operate.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're straight up to the next thing.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I was and I always think, you know, that just that clarity of of purpose in that in a sense, you know, even for such a big company like that, well, they're as big as they are because they're very clear about what they do and don't do.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we can all learn a lot by looking at, you know, I mean, we spend all our time, we don't even look in our industry, you know, we we spend our time looking at what other big businesses are are doing, you know, and and try and apply that to us.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_00: I really I like you take the master of one instead of a jack-a-ball.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_00: And look, I mean they're both a strategy, right?
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and that's not saying that one is invalid over the other.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think the evidence would suggest that um, you know, that one is definitely a better strategy than another.
• 1:08:21
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_01: And on that note, we know you've got a a special date with uh with your family.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_01: We uh no, you're fine.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, uh I don't want to get in trouble, find out what it's like.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_01: But hey, you're right.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh um we'll we'll finish up on this.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what's what's next for you?
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like what have you got anything big planned?
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so look, I think the that the plans for us is really, you know, how do we uh grow, how do we grow from here?
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, we're in the process of of looking at you know where we can open um other stores.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I think you know, at the end of the day, we're at we're a retail business that has an online presence that but also has a physical presence.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we've established ourselves you know, okay-ish, you know, in the you know, kind of Canberra market here.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um our challenge now is you know, where do we where do we open some other stores and things like that.
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, we're in negotiations and discussions around some options um there, and that's really you know, um, I think what is probably next for us.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I think you know, we'll probably start to see more of us in a in a bigger kind of national sense so that we can um you know bring what I think are you know our good quality you know artworks to a to a bigger audience across Australia.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's really the kind of focus in terms of what you'll probably see see next.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: Second book.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so there's another, um, yeah, so look, there's a there's a there's another book probably, you know, that might come out, you know, maybe towards the end of next year or something like that.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um it'll probably be a bit more of a local one rather than across the whole of uh whole of Australia.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um so probably right now, just to support um you know the business here in Canberra, yeah, yeah.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_00: What's next will probably be a Canberra book.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then there'll probably be a couple of others past that.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like doing a book like that is not a small undertaking.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_00: I can't.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I mean that was our that's that's my first book.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we you know, we were not 100% sure how it would go.
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean we only did a small for the first round.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_00: We only did, you know, we only did 5,000 for the first run, yeah, because it was like you don't want to, you know, go and do 25,000 in that kind of first go if you haven't done it before.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that was a bit of a good test, and then we've you know gone from done more from there.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_00: But it's um I think you have to also kind of be careful you don't get too far ahead of yourself in terms of um what you want to do.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_00: So you know for us that was a bit of a test, you know, make sure that we've actually got a product that the people resonate with and are happy to, you know, um pay for and and things like that.
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_00: So uh yeah, so another book down track and then not just continuing to try and expand the collection.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_00: So in the in the in the photographic sense, just try and um you know expand the collection.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I think part of the challenge around that as well for me personally is I look at some of my older photos and I'm like, I really think we should go back and kind of reshoot that area or something or with a bigger camera with more mega pixels or whatever case might be.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_00: So uh yeah, look, I think, you know, but driven, you know, sitting behind all that, I think, you know, I I guess I'm really keen to just make sure that you know we don't get ahead of ourselves, yep, and that we just keep making sure that we deliver a premium quality product to stay true to yourself, you know, and stay true true to that.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think we're going to be changing anything uh uh around that.
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And we're we're happy to sit, you know, we're happy that we're sitting, you know, in the market, you know, there's different levels that we are we're not trying to be produce stuff that is super cheap and low cost, you know, that you know, we're not trying to compete with Harvey Norman Wall art as as such.
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we want a product last a lifetime and that people recognise that and that they resonate that with and they know what they're they're buying into.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_00: But equally, um, you know, just probably really trying to expand the market.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're not a national, you know, not we're not, you know, a big national brand, you know, uh as such.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, you know, uh, but you have to kind of you've just got to slowly grow.
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we've been doing okay at growing.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, our challenge now is just to to kind of maintain that.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but stay, like I think you said, to stay true who who we are.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And on that note, uh, we're gonna wrap it up now, but um, where can people find your work?
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so obviously they can come here to uh to our gallery in Canberra.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we're at uh 33 Jardine Street in Kingston, so we're literally only a couple of Ks from Parliament House.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_00: We're in a pretty central location uh here in Canberra.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_00: So for those that know Canberra, we're literally across the road from uh Green Square, so they can uh we're kind of looking out the window here and can see people enjoying a few beverages at the pub across the road.
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then during the day there's plenty of cafes and and other things around.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um they can find us here in the gallery, but uh obviously um for those that aren't in Canberra or visiting Canberra, uh they can find us online at Scotlego.com.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we've got the full collection uh on the website there, all our prices, sizes.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_00: We did free delivery uh Australia wide, so people can uh order uh anything in the collection.
• 1:12:45
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's a very easy to use website too, I must say.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then obviously uh on beyond the website at ScotLego.com where you know Instagram, uh Facebook, uh as well.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I I strongly urge everyone to to jump on all those uh media outlets and buy a book, of course, and come down and see the gallery.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'd be disappointed.
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, physically just in person because yeah, they are some of the best I've ever seen in any gallery in the country.
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_00: So don't bother going to the portrait gallery, don't bother going to the library, just just come here.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Just Scott Lego's gallery, number one Canberra hotspot.
• 1:13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, no, and that's certainly you know, we're trying to certainly trying to make this you know a tourist destination as well.
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_00: But no, thank you both gents for uh for the for the support and and and kind words.
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, hopefully those that are listening you know get get something out of that as well.
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the biggest thing I would say is you know don't uh don't listen to the naysayers, you know, take a more positive, yeah, proactive approach.
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And there's plenty of evidence out there that that says that you know, if you're in the landscape photography game, that there you can actually make a make a living out of it.
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, if you're going with the right approach, then uh you know I encourage people to to think about it as a as a as a business and that they'll be surprised what is possible.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having us in your Galsera as you all.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a great place.
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of getting distracted with the art.
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_01: But uh thank you everybody for listening, and um, I hope you got something out of this episode like we definitely did.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, have a great night, and we'll talk to you on our next episode.