Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / How to Overcome Insecurity When “Loving Yourself” Isn’t Working | Happiness | E556

Transcript

How to Overcome Insecurity When “Loving Yourself” Isn’t Working | Happiness | E556 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

0:06
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0:45
Speaker 1: and success, y'all.
0:45
Speaker 2: That's how it's done.
0:47
Speaker 1: Now on with the show. We live in a culture
0:53
Speaker 1: where the gospel of healthy relationships, self-care, personal wellness are
0:58
Speaker 1: being preached at us from all kinds of different directions.
1:01
Speaker 1: But here's an interesting idea. If you don't feel fundamentally
1:07
Speaker 1: good about yourself, healthy relationships, positive people will actually make
1:13
Speaker 1: you feel worse instead of better.
1:27
Speaker 2: People that are insecure or have low self-worth, they have
1:30
Speaker 2: memories of bullying, harm, abuse, neglect. And those memories tell
1:36
Speaker 2: them that this is going to happen again.
1:38
Speaker 1: Healthy relationships, positive people, even being nice to yourself can
1:43
Speaker 1: actually make you feel stressed, anxious, and worse.
1:49
Speaker 2: Even though this all seems like a tragedy because we
1:51
Speaker 2: can't change the past, that actually with some of this
1:53
Speaker 2: new neuroscience research, we can change the way the past
1:56
Speaker 2: continues to live inside of us.
2:04
Speaker 1: There is a path forward on this episode of love, happiness,
2:07
Speaker 1: and success. We are talking about how to heal your
2:11
Speaker 1: sense of self-worth, not in a superficial way, but at
2:15
Speaker 1: the very deepest levels. So you can feel safer in
2:19
Speaker 1: the world and a better relationship with other people but
2:22
Speaker 1: even more importantly have a genuinely positive relationship with yourself.
2:42
Speaker 2: Everybody feels antagonistic and defensive sometimes But if you acknowledge it,
2:47
Speaker 2: you can control it, right? It doesn't hijack you in
2:51
Speaker 2: the same way.
2:52
Speaker 1: And welcome to Love, Happiness, and Success. I'm your host, Dr.
2:55
Speaker 1: Lisa Marie Bobby. I'm a psychologist, marriage and family therapist,
2:58
Speaker 1: board certified coach, and so happy to be here once
3:01
Speaker 1: again with you. You guys, we have so much good
3:04
Speaker 1: stuff in store today, so we're going to get right
3:06
Speaker 1: into it. But as you listen, I want you to
3:08
Speaker 1: be listening for yourself. and absorbing it all by the
3:12
Speaker 1: end of the show, you're going to have some new ideas,
3:14
Speaker 1: but also actionable strategies to change things like rearrange the
3:19
Speaker 1: furniture on a super deep level. But I also want
3:21
Speaker 1: you to be thinking about who else in your life
3:24
Speaker 1: needs to be hearing this message and these ideas, because
3:28
Speaker 1: I bet you love somebody who does not love themselves.
3:32
Speaker 1: And so think about who to share this with.
3:34
Speaker 2: This process of returning to our past, visualizing a new outcome,
3:40
Speaker 2: and that actually being the outcome that continues to sit
3:43
Speaker 2: with us.
3:51
Speaker 1: My guest today is none other than Dr. Marissa Franco.
3:55
Speaker 1: She is a psychologist, a professor at the University of Maryland,
3:59
Speaker 1: and the New York Times bestselling author of Platonic, which
4:05
Speaker 1: if you've been listening to the show for a while,
4:06
Speaker 1: you'll remember. We had a little visit with Marissa back
4:10
Speaker 1: when she was here for a conversation on friendships, toxic friendships. Fascinating.
4:15
Speaker 1: Look for it in the feed. But she's back today
4:18
Speaker 1: because she has a new book that I am so
4:20
Speaker 1: excited about. It's called Worth, The New Science of Self-Esteem
4:26
Speaker 1: and Secure Attachment. And Marissa, oh my gosh, I am
4:31
Speaker 1: so excited for you and the book and this conversation.
4:35
Speaker 2: I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much
4:37
Speaker 2: for having me back.
4:39
Speaker 1: I am just such a huge fan of your work. Honestly,
4:42
Speaker 1: when we talked last time about all the work that
4:44
Speaker 1: went into the book Platonic on friendships, I just had
4:48
Speaker 1: mind bombs going off the whole time. I mean, just
4:51
Speaker 1: so many, not just great ideas, but like, how do
4:55
Speaker 1: we apply these when it comes to having healthier friendships
4:58
Speaker 1: in our lives? But then that was the last time
5:02
Speaker 1: I saw you. You've been busy. And I'm so curious
5:05
Speaker 1: to hear like, what was your evolutionary process like? Like
5:10
Speaker 1: how'd you get here?
5:11
Speaker 2: Yeah. So when I wrote platonic on making friends, I
5:15
Speaker 2: had a one that got away of psychology theories, which
5:18
Speaker 2: this theory called self verification theory. And the idea is
5:21
Speaker 2: that we look for people that verify our sense of worth.
5:25
Speaker 2: And so if we feel negatively about ourselves, we almost
5:29
Speaker 2: prefer to affiliate with people that see us more negatively
5:32
Speaker 2: than Because if people see us too positively, it's like
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Speaker 2: I'm going to let them down. They're going to figure
5:37
Speaker 2: out who I really am. There's all of this anxiety.
5:40
Speaker 2: And there's so much interesting research on this that when
5:42
Speaker 2: people with low self-esteem get complimented, their blood pressure rises because, again,
5:47
Speaker 2: they're afraid that I'm going to have to live up
5:49
Speaker 2: to these compliments. That when good things happen to them,
5:52
Speaker 2: they get sicker. And so I realized through reading all
5:57
Speaker 2: this research on self-verification that if we want to be
6:00
Speaker 2: in healthy relationship, community, friendship, it's not just about knowing
6:04
Speaker 2: how to connect with others, but also how to connect
6:06
Speaker 2: with ourselves to work on our own sense of worth
6:09
Speaker 2: so that healthy, positive relationships don't feel threatening to us.
6:13
Speaker 1: Okay. So this is really interesting. So what you're saying
6:18
Speaker 1: is that when you were really looking at healthy friendships,
6:22
Speaker 1: what you found is that people would essentially seek out
6:27
Speaker 1: relationships that felt comfortable to them, even if they were destructive, toxic,
6:33
Speaker 1: not really healthy or positive or pleasurable, but because it
6:37
Speaker 1: matched the way they felt about themselves. And so one
6:40
Speaker 1: of the things you walked out of was how do
6:43
Speaker 1: we improve this on the inside if that is one
6:47
Speaker 1: of the key pillars of having healthy friendships is who
6:50
Speaker 1: you're attracted to.
6:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So good. Yeah. Yeah. You can think about
6:57
Speaker 2: your self-esteem as a theory of self. And if it's low,
7:00
Speaker 2: it's my theory is that people will reject me and
7:02
Speaker 2: bad things will come. And when good things happen, you
7:06
Speaker 2: don't actually internalize it, but you instead feel like it's
7:09
Speaker 2: only a matter of time till the other shoe drops.
7:11
Speaker 2: And now I'm going to fall more precipitously when that happens,
7:16
Speaker 2: if I receive this good thing. And so when we
7:19
Speaker 2: feel unworthy, all the beautiful things in life, success, love,
7:24
Speaker 2: positive relationship, it sort of slips off of us. We
7:27
Speaker 2: can't necessarily take it in.
7:31
Speaker 1: So, you know, even in the title of your book,
7:34
Speaker 1: you do mention attachment theory. Is this related to, where
7:39
Speaker 1: does this come from? Is this early childhood experiences? I
7:43
Speaker 1: know that attachment styles are multidimensional. It's not just about
7:47
Speaker 1: your mom, right?
7:48
Speaker 2: But Yes. Yeah, definitely. I think low self-worth and insecure
7:52
Speaker 2: attachment come from the same place. It took me a
7:56
Speaker 2: long time writing this book to understand what is happening here.
7:59
Speaker 2: Why is it that for people who struggle with self-worth,
8:02
Speaker 2: the very things that you think would make them feel
8:05
Speaker 2: worthy are actually only making them feel worse? How does
8:07
Speaker 2: that make any sense? So I'm digging, Lisa. I'm digging
8:11
Speaker 2: and digging. And I find this researcher who says memories
8:16
Speaker 2: are the database of self-esteem. And the thing about memories
8:20
Speaker 2: is they don't just record the past, they predict the future.
8:25
Speaker 2: And so people that are insecure or have low self-worth,
8:28
Speaker 2: they have memories of bullying, harm, abuse, neglect. And those
8:33
Speaker 2: memories tell them that this is going to happen again.
8:36
Speaker 2: And so thus, if you try to perceive or internalize
8:40
Speaker 2: the love that you have and you know, maybe elevate
8:43
Speaker 2: your sense of self, if that harm is only going
8:45
Speaker 2: to happen again, then that's dangerous because you're going to
8:48
Speaker 2: fall more precipitously when that happens. And so you can
8:52
Speaker 2: see in a way that our insecurities here are really
8:55
Speaker 2: just trying to protect us, keep us low so we
8:58
Speaker 2: can't fall as much. Yeah.
9:01
Speaker 1: Oh, I love that. Memories are a database. So true.
9:08
Speaker 1: And that what you're seeing is that all these memories
9:12
Speaker 1: are getting activated. What happens in the past informs the
9:16
Speaker 1: present and the future, and that there's this defensive response.
9:22
Speaker 1: But I do want to say though, I mean, I
9:25
Speaker 1: would imagine this is what you found in your research,
9:26
Speaker 1: that this is not just like, this is not a
9:28
Speaker 1: conscious thing. Somebody isn't saying, oh, I need to be
9:31
Speaker 1: careful because I will be rejected again. Therefore, it's like
9:35
Speaker 1: a visceral reaction is how it feels.
9:39
Speaker 2: It's so in your body. There's even a part of
9:41
Speaker 2: your brain. Lisa, here's the thing that even if the
9:45
Speaker 2: same thing isn't happening again, likely your body's feeling like
9:49
Speaker 2: it does because there's a part of your brain that,
9:51
Speaker 2: let's say I go through a new experience. I have
9:54
Speaker 2: a boss who gives me critical feedback and I grew
9:56
Speaker 2: up in a childhood where a parent always yelled at me,
9:59
Speaker 2: humiliated me, When I'm interpreting that boss's feedback, there's a
10:03
Speaker 2: part of my brain that goes back to that memory
10:06
Speaker 2: and says, this is just like it was then. And
10:09
Speaker 2: then it literally re-triggers in my body the same felt
10:12
Speaker 2: sensation of what it was like to be humiliated back then.
10:15
Speaker 2: And so we are superimposing the reality of the past
10:18
Speaker 2: onto the present. And there's this great psychoanalyst, Philip Romberg,
10:22
Speaker 2: and he says, we don't go to therapy to deal
10:25
Speaker 2: with what happened then, but to deal with what continues
10:28
Speaker 2: to happen now. Negative memory, it's not just a moment.
10:32
Speaker 2: In a way, it becomes every moment after.
10:35
Speaker 1: Yeah.
10:35
Speaker 2: Yeah.
10:37
Speaker 1: You're describing what sounds almost like a trauma trigger, a
10:41
Speaker 1: visceral re-experiencing of a feeling associated with something awful happening
10:47
Speaker 1: in the past. And it's involuntary. You don't have control
10:50
Speaker 1: over it, but it takes over in that moment. Yes.
10:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think when you say it's involuntary, there's
10:58
Speaker 2: this concept called implicit memory, which are things that we
11:01
Speaker 2: don't remember that still affect us. And there's a fascinating
11:05
Speaker 2: study where people are showed a blue slide, loud noise plays.
11:09
Speaker 2: Blue slide, loud noise plays. Blue slide, loud noise. Eventually,
11:13
Speaker 2: they're sweating when they see the blue slide before the
11:16
Speaker 2: loud noise because of that memory. But if their hippocampus
11:19
Speaker 2: is damaged, that's the part of your brain that records
11:21
Speaker 2: the memory. they can't tell you what color slide is
11:25
Speaker 2: associated with the noise. I don't know if it's green, yellow, blue,
11:27
Speaker 2: I don't know. But if the blue slide is shown,
11:30
Speaker 2: their body starts sweating still. And so it's still captured,
11:35
Speaker 2: even though they don't remember that it happened. And that's
11:37
Speaker 2: because another part of our brain, an amygdala, really records
11:40
Speaker 2: the emotion of an event and re-triggers that emotion in
11:44
Speaker 2: the current moment. So it doesn't have to be something
11:46
Speaker 2: that you remember. For many of us, we may struggle
11:49
Speaker 2: with self-worth and not know why. And that's because it
11:52
Speaker 2: could be stored in our amygdala. If something happens when
11:55
Speaker 2: you're really young, your hippocampus hasn't even fully formed yet,
11:57
Speaker 2: but your amygdala is still taking in this emotional information
12:01
Speaker 2: and still imposing it on the current moment.
12:05
Speaker 1: Well, here we are again, already too deep, too dark,
12:09
Speaker 1: too fast. And I'll just say for you, I'm sure that,
12:13
Speaker 1: you know, but for our friends listening, you know, just
12:16
Speaker 1: as a psychologist, I think some of the hardest work
12:21
Speaker 1: to do are with people who have experienced pre-verbal trauma
12:27
Speaker 1: or pre-verbal attachment trauma. So usually things that have happened
12:31
Speaker 1: before people are, you know, two or three years old
12:34
Speaker 1: is when our brains kind of come online and when
12:36
Speaker 1: we have memories that are in many ways easier. Because
12:39
Speaker 1: if you have a memory, like we can go in there,
12:42
Speaker 1: we can work with that. But if you don't even
12:45
Speaker 1: have the memory, there's like this just nebulous thing and
12:47
Speaker 1: you don't even know what you're reacting to or why
12:49
Speaker 1: or where it comes from. And there are a lot
12:52
Speaker 1: of people in the world walking around with that. And
12:55
Speaker 1: I found it to be particularly hard when it is,
12:57
Speaker 1: just as you're saying, very early messages of people being scary,
13:02
Speaker 1: people being rejecting, people being upset with you when you're
13:06
Speaker 1: an infant, right? It gets coded in and there's this
13:10
Speaker 1: like expectation that something bad is going to happen in
13:13
Speaker 1: the presence of other humans. It's so hard.
13:18
Speaker 2: It's really hard. And I think it makes people really
13:20
Speaker 2: hard on themselves because they're like, here I am struggling.
13:24
Speaker 2: I don't even have a good reason. Everything went right
13:27
Speaker 2: in my life. And in some ways it can make
13:30
Speaker 2: your self-worth even worse because you have no clear signifier.
13:34
Speaker 2: You have no clear event that you can latch onto.
13:36
Speaker 2: And ultimately people's assumption is often, maybe I'm just broken.
13:40
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm just born broken. Maybe I'm just deficient. And
13:43
Speaker 2: so I'm here to bring a compassionate lens to that,
13:46
Speaker 2: which is like, it is not something wrong with you.
13:52
Speaker 2: That's the reason why you're getting triggered now or emotionally
13:57
Speaker 2: dysregulated now. In fact, it's the nature of being a
13:59
Speaker 2: human being. When we go through something really traumatic... There's
14:04
Speaker 2: a study of women that had underwent a sexual assault
14:07
Speaker 2: and they went to the hospital to get treatment and
14:09
Speaker 2: care for it. And one third of them didn't remember
14:11
Speaker 2: that that happened. And so when we go through something traumatic,
14:14
Speaker 2: our hippocampus comes offline because it's too much for us
14:17
Speaker 2: to remember. And so that's just to say, if you're
14:20
Speaker 2: listening to this, And you struggle with self-worth and you
14:23
Speaker 2: don't know why. That doesn't mean it's because you're broken
14:26
Speaker 2: or deficient or because it's your fault. Like these memories,
14:29
Speaker 2: these amygdala memories, they're real and they continue to affect
14:33
Speaker 2: us in ways that feel really hard to change. So
14:36
Speaker 2: I hope that we can all begin this conversation with
14:38
Speaker 2: a lot of compassion for those of us who struggle
14:42
Speaker 2: with our sense of self and don't have a clear
14:44
Speaker 2: reason why.
14:45
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Thank you for saying that out loud. as we're
14:51
Speaker 1: talking to what I also am curious about. So these,
14:56
Speaker 1: these old memories, experiences with humans, right? Bad experience being rejected.
15:02
Speaker 1: It made me feel bad about myself. Bad things happened.
15:05
Speaker 1: Are there also other factors that contribute to that? Or
15:09
Speaker 1: is that like the big kahuna? Like even as you're,
15:11
Speaker 1: you're talking and especially the, um, the way that it
15:16
Speaker 1: sounds almost like the, the mental dialogue that goes along
15:21
Speaker 1: with that, as you were saying it out loud, I
15:23
Speaker 1: was like, that also sounds an awful lot like depression
15:27
Speaker 1: and anxiety. Is this something that kind of correlates with
15:32
Speaker 1: a mental health thing? Or is this more, I mean,
15:34
Speaker 1: the attachment stuff is pervasive, that's stable, but some of
15:37
Speaker 1: the stuff kind of come and go.
15:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's this concept called the vulnerability model of self-esteem.
15:43
Speaker 2: And that's the idea that if we have low self-esteem,
15:46
Speaker 2: we're more vulnerable to poor mental health over time. And
15:50
Speaker 2: from a memory lens, you can kind of understand why.
15:52
Speaker 2: Because if I'm going through a negative event and I
15:56
Speaker 2: have low self-worth, it's not just that negative event that's
16:00
Speaker 2: affecting me. It's the entire cumulative history of negative events
16:03
Speaker 2: that's getting triggered in my reaction to that particular moment.
16:07
Speaker 2: And so our reaction to things is often cumulative. And
16:10
Speaker 2: so the more unprocessed negative memories that we have, the
16:14
Speaker 2: more vulnerable we continue to be throughout our lives. But
16:18
Speaker 2: I think in the book, I argue that even though
16:21
Speaker 2: this all seems like a tragedy because we can't change
16:23
Speaker 2: the past, that actually with some of this new neuroscience research,
16:26
Speaker 2: we can change the way the past continues to live
16:29
Speaker 2: inside of us.
16:30
Speaker 1: And everybody listening to your voice right now is like, finally,
16:33
Speaker 1: when are we going to talk about that part? I
16:35
Speaker 1: don't care.
16:36
Speaker 2: I don't care why.
16:36
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16:39
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Speaker 1: with my very special guest, Dr. Marissa Franco, talking about
19:04
Speaker 1: her new book, Worth, the science, the new science of
19:08
Speaker 1: self-esteem and secure attachment, which is just out. And so, Dr. Marissa,
19:14
Speaker 1: before we took our break, you were about to start
19:16
Speaker 1: to Walk us now into what makes this better. And
19:22
Speaker 1: I know we have so much to talk about here.
19:24
Speaker 1: And I'll just share, you know, as a therapist, as
19:26
Speaker 1: a coach, so many times, this is what people are
19:30
Speaker 1: coming in the door, you know, to improve. I want
19:32
Speaker 1: to trust myself. It shows up in different ways. I
19:34
Speaker 1: want to trust myself. I want to feel more secure
19:37
Speaker 1: in relationships. I want to feel better about myself. So
19:42
Speaker 1: like there are a lot of different ways of walking
19:45
Speaker 1: around this. But before we go into like what what
19:47
Speaker 1: is the path of transformation look like? I'm so curious
19:50
Speaker 1: to hear, how would you define this? Like when you
19:55
Speaker 1: think of worth or self-worth, what.
19:57
Speaker 2: Does it mean to you? This is a great question.
20:00
Speaker 2: And it was a very, a very hard question to
20:02
Speaker 2: answer for me. I will say I came to define
20:05
Speaker 2: self-worth as treating your internal world as if it matters,
20:09
Speaker 2: treating your feelings, values, preferences as if they really matter.
20:13
Speaker 2: And here's how I came to that definition. When I
20:16
Speaker 2: researched self-esteem, I found that there are two different types
20:19
Speaker 2: of high self-esteem. One type of high self-esteem brags, defensive,
20:24
Speaker 2: attacks other people, antagonistic, always trying to act superior to others.
20:29
Speaker 2: The other type of high self-esteem, compassionate, caring, loving, great
20:34
Speaker 2: to other people, has the best relationships of all. And
20:37
Speaker 2: I try to understand the difference between these two types.
20:40
Speaker 2: And I talked to my colleague, Beth, who seemed to
20:42
Speaker 2: have the sort of positive type of high self-esteem. And
20:44
Speaker 2: she says, I'm trying to think about what's going on
20:47
Speaker 2: with me when I feel defensive. I feel shame. And
20:52
Speaker 2: I'm trying to work through that shame in that moment.
20:54
Speaker 2: And I have this moment of insight, which is that
20:57
Speaker 2: everybody feels antagonistic and defensive sometimes. But if you acknowledge it,
21:03
Speaker 2: you can control it, right? It doesn't hijack you in
21:06
Speaker 2: the same way. And so the issue for these people
21:09
Speaker 2: with high self-esteem who treat everyone horribly is they don't
21:12
Speaker 2: actually acknowledge their own pain, their own shame, their own
21:15
Speaker 2: fears of inadequacy, right? And these people that have this
21:19
Speaker 2: more holistic kind of high self-esteem, Ironically, the paradox is
21:23
Speaker 2: that they can actually admit when they feel insecure. They
21:26
Speaker 2: can admit when they need something from someone. They can
21:28
Speaker 2: admit their own vulnerabilities. They're not so focused on being superior.
21:32
Speaker 2: They're simply focused on expressing who they are. And they
21:36
Speaker 2: treat their feelings as precious to them rather than something
21:40
Speaker 2: to be feared at or to push away. And so
21:43
Speaker 2: once someone I interviewed for the book, who was secure-ish,
21:46
Speaker 2: said that they would sort of wave their hand over
21:50
Speaker 2: the day to see where their emotional energy lied. And
21:53
Speaker 2: I thought that was fascinating because here I am being
21:56
Speaker 2: open to facing my feelings if they're obvious, but it's
21:59
Speaker 2: almost like these secure people were treating their feelings, even
22:02
Speaker 2: their negative ones, as a part of them that was
22:05
Speaker 2: too precious to let go. And they wanted to explore
22:08
Speaker 2: it and they wanted to understand it and they want
22:10
Speaker 2: to understand where it came from. And they wanted to
22:12
Speaker 2: have compassion for the parts of themselves that they struggle with.
22:15
Speaker 2: And As psychologists, we call it more like integration, which
22:18
Speaker 2: is like welcoming the parts of yourself you struggle, looking
22:21
Speaker 2: at them, exploring them. And that was really the key
22:24
Speaker 2: to these people that felt worthy. They were not afraid
22:27
Speaker 2: of their insides. They were not, even if they had
22:29
Speaker 2: feelings that were antisocial, quote unquote, irrational, critical of others, right?
22:35
Speaker 2: They didn't feel like they needed to push it away.
22:37
Speaker 2: They felt like they needed to explore it. And that
22:40
Speaker 2: allowed them to feel whole because there's no part of
22:43
Speaker 2: themselves that they're trying to run away from.
22:46
Speaker 1: It's not even self-acceptance. It is self-appreciation. Did you use
22:52
Speaker 1: the word cherish or is that just floating into my mind?
22:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, I did cherish, yeah.
22:56
Speaker 1: Not just self-acceptance. It is that like a desire to
23:01
Speaker 1: To understand themselves and to be like, yes, this is important.
23:04
Speaker 1: This is worth paying attention to. I'm going to go
23:07
Speaker 1: into this. Right.
23:08
Speaker 2: It's like every part of me belongs to me. And
23:11
Speaker 2: it's been a transformative practice for me, you know, because
23:14
Speaker 2: I've realized that there's these ways that I could push
23:17
Speaker 2: away a negative feeling so quickly I don't even see
23:19
Speaker 2: it happening. And so like an example is like I
23:22
Speaker 2: had a friend. I really like this friend. I had
23:25
Speaker 2: been reaching out a whole lot and they had been
23:27
Speaker 2: sort of canceling our plans, canceling on our plans. And
23:30
Speaker 2: we have new plans. And this friend says, you know,
23:33
Speaker 2: I got an injury. I need to heal from it.
23:36
Speaker 2: I need to rest. And I go so quickly to
23:39
Speaker 2: I need to feel compassion for this person because they're
23:41
Speaker 2: going through it. They're struggling. Right. And I notice when
23:44
Speaker 2: I have that sense of urgency that there's usually a
23:46
Speaker 2: feeling I'm trying to run away from. And that was
23:48
Speaker 2: I did feel rejected.
23:50
Speaker 1: Right.
23:51
Speaker 2: And when I look at that rejection, when I allow
23:55
Speaker 2: that rejection, those feelings of rejection, they move through me.
23:59
Speaker 2: And now I'm able to say to that friend, please
24:01
Speaker 2: take care of yourself from a place that feels genuine
24:04
Speaker 2: rather than as if I'm coercing myself. And I actually
24:08
Speaker 2: see the ways that it makes me more whole in
24:10
Speaker 2: my connections because those negative feelings that I'm previously running
24:15
Speaker 2: away from they can make me want to withdraw. They
24:19
Speaker 2: can build resentment. They can build just underlying anger or
24:24
Speaker 2: resentment towards a particular friend. But when I look at them,
24:27
Speaker 2: when I allow them, when I let them play out,
24:30
Speaker 2: when they move through me and then recede from me,
24:33
Speaker 2: then I have more space and room to actually have
24:36
Speaker 2: compassion for the people in my life. And so it
24:38
Speaker 2: took me realizing that A feeling is not an indictment
24:41
Speaker 2: of self. It's not an indictment of me or my identity.
24:44
Speaker 2: Feelings happen to us. I'm not choosing to feel this way.
24:47
Speaker 2: And I can only regulate feelings that I'm actually acknowledging.
24:52
Speaker 2: And so this has been a transformative process for me
24:54
Speaker 2: in the book. You know, I thought I felt worthy,
24:56
Speaker 2: but writing this, I'm like, I don't know if I
24:58
Speaker 2: was completely open to my own internal world in that way.
25:01
Speaker 2: I feel the pressure to be acceptable or to be
25:04
Speaker 2: impressive to other people. And this book this process, my therapist,
25:09
Speaker 2: who I dedicated the book to, have all shown me
25:12
Speaker 2: the importance of putting my authenticity over my need to
25:16
Speaker 2: be impressive or my need to be perfect.
25:18
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, thank you for sharing that. And I was
25:22
Speaker 1: curious about your own relationship with worth. And I really
25:26
Speaker 1: appreciate you sharing that story and love too. And I
25:29
Speaker 1: want to hear more about this. Like you identified people
25:32
Speaker 1: who were exemplary examples of example, oh my God, but
25:38
Speaker 1: of people who were operating in that way and then
25:42
Speaker 1: almost reverse engineering, like what are they doing? How are
25:45
Speaker 1: they being that way? And then testing it on yourself.
25:49
Speaker 1: And one of the things that is coming up for
25:51
Speaker 1: me as we're talking, I mean, I have a lot
25:53
Speaker 1: to learn here too, because there requires, I think, such
25:56
Speaker 1: intentionality to slow down and be like, how do I
26:01
Speaker 1: feel about that? Especially just like bouncing from one thing
26:07
Speaker 1: to another all day long. And those moments of reflection
26:11
Speaker 1: to really check in and go there intentionally, it can
26:15
Speaker 1: be easy to kind of just bounce along the surface.
26:19
Speaker 2: Right. Totally.
26:21
Speaker 1: It takes time, but.
26:24
Speaker 2: What also takes time is the disrepair that could happen
26:27
Speaker 2: when we are pushing ourselves away or not looking at ourselves.
26:31
Speaker 2: And then we feel this weird thing in the relationship
26:33
Speaker 2: and it's hard to even notice what it is. Cause
26:35
Speaker 2: we were trying, we were actually suppressing those feelings. And
26:38
Speaker 2: so it's, everything will take time. It's just like, choose
26:41
Speaker 2: which one that you want, but it, yeah, it's hard work. It's,
26:44
Speaker 2: it's almost like treating your mental health, like your physical
26:47
Speaker 2: health time, requiring time to take away and attend to.
26:51
Speaker 1: Okay. Well, As promised, I really do want to crack
26:55
Speaker 1: into more of the how of we can begin to
26:59
Speaker 1: get there, but I cannot possibly let you go. Maybe
27:02
Speaker 1: we could even talk about this prior to the end.
27:04
Speaker 1: You're also bringing into this conversation such a wealth of
27:09
Speaker 1: perspective and knowledge about the systemic parts of this, the
27:12
Speaker 1: relational parts, because the other thing that's coming up for
27:15
Speaker 1: me as you're talking about your experience is feeling your
27:20
Speaker 1: own emotions and being not just accepting, but grateful for
27:24
Speaker 1: them and all of the things. But then, you know,
27:27
Speaker 1: to be able to say to someone, I am feeling
27:30
Speaker 1: disappointed or I've been having these feelings of resentment that
27:34
Speaker 1: are coming up because I'm realizing that X, Y, Z
27:38
Speaker 1: boundary of my, you know, whatever, because like what comes
27:40
Speaker 1: up for me personally, that's the part that I'm less
27:43
Speaker 1: likely to do in relationships with people that I care about,
27:46
Speaker 1: because I think I'm worried about how that might land
27:51
Speaker 1: or to be disruptive to the relationship or It'll change
27:54
Speaker 1: the way they feel about me. And so I think
27:57
Speaker 1: that in my relationships, I can tend to prioritize the
28:00
Speaker 1: way other people feel over my own, but right. And
28:05
Speaker 1: so I'm curious to hear your thoughts about how that
28:09
Speaker 1: experience of worth comes into the dynamics.
28:14
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I relate to that. It is scary. I mean,
28:17
Speaker 2: it's like admitting it within is hard enough, right? Because
28:22
Speaker 2: there's Often, I don't know, particularly if you came from
28:26
Speaker 2: a childhood where people shamed you for having certain emotions
28:29
Speaker 2: or men are so often shamed for having certain emotions
28:32
Speaker 2: that admitting that can come with a certain amount of
28:34
Speaker 2: shame that punches you so automatically. And it's such a
28:38
Speaker 2: practice to be like, no, let me sit with this.
28:40
Speaker 2: Let me allow this. The shame comes and I can
28:42
Speaker 2: tolerate that. So I understand. And then it's like, well,
28:46
Speaker 2: if I say it to the other person, then.
28:49
Speaker 2: As much as I try to create internal safety within,
28:52
Speaker 2: there's no guarantee that the safety is outside of me.
28:54
Speaker 2: And so it always feels risky. And it is a risk, right?
28:58
Speaker 2: And if it goes right, it can make you feel
29:01
Speaker 2: closer than ever. Risk on right is intimacy. But if
29:05
Speaker 2: it goes wrong, it can feel particularly risky. bad because
29:10
Speaker 2: it was probably already a vulnerability. It was already feelings
29:13
Speaker 2: of shame around my own feelings and what they mean
29:16
Speaker 2: and the other person can really compound that. And so,
29:19
Speaker 2: you know, I think it's appropriate to be discerning and
29:22
Speaker 2: to try to communicate with people that have the capacity
29:28
Speaker 2: to listen to you and have the capacity to hear you.
29:30
Speaker 2: But I will also say as a friendship expert, if
29:33
Speaker 2: you're at the stage where you're ready to withdraw from
29:36
Speaker 2: another person, it's a lot kinder to just express the thing.
29:40
Speaker 2: Often we... fear expressing the thing because we might be
29:44
Speaker 2: abandoned or the relationship might end. But by withdrawing, we
29:47
Speaker 2: guarantee that outcome. And so, so yeah, like sometimes it's
29:51
Speaker 2: a thing that's passing and that, you know, we do,
29:54
Speaker 2: when we explore the feeling, we kind of do move
29:55
Speaker 2: through it. But other times it still lingers. And if
29:58
Speaker 2: that's the case and you find yourself withdrawing, think about
30:01
Speaker 2: being on the other side of that. If a friend
30:03
Speaker 2: was upset with you, like, wouldn't you prefer that they
30:06
Speaker 2: tell you rather than back away from you and you
30:08
Speaker 2: have no idea why? And so, so yeah, I think
30:11
Speaker 2: as scary as it is, we want to try to
30:14
Speaker 2: give people the opportunity before we necessarily assume that it
30:18
Speaker 2: will go badly.
30:18
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's such a fantastic point. Give people the opportunity
30:23
Speaker 1: and that it is scary, you know, but there's a
30:27
Speaker 1: threat of this ending on either side. If they're like,
30:30
Speaker 1: I can't believe you said that.
30:31
Speaker 2: I hate you.
30:32
Speaker 1: Or if you are like, I don't want to do
30:35
Speaker 1: this anymore because you have, it's unsustainable.
30:38
Speaker 2: Right.
30:38
Speaker 1: And the only way through is really the brave way.
30:42
Speaker 2: Yeah.
30:43
Speaker 1: Through your research and your work, I am so curious
30:48
Speaker 1: to hear some of the things you discovered that can
30:52
Speaker 1: help someone who's in a place right now, one of
30:55
Speaker 1: our friends here listening, begin to start moving from a
31:02
Speaker 1: place where maybe they don't feel good about themselves. They
31:06
Speaker 1: do expect bad things from other people. They have all
31:08
Speaker 1: those old memories. and start to move towards this more
31:13
Speaker 1: secure place, their relationships with themselves and others.
31:17
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the thing about memories is that they are
31:22
Speaker 2: not necessarily made to record the past as they are
31:25
Speaker 2: to predict the future. And so because of that, memories
31:29
Speaker 2: can actually be updated each time we revisit them. And
31:33
Speaker 2: particularly the emotions that are still part of that memory
31:37
Speaker 2: and that are still leading it to affect how you
31:40
Speaker 2: perceive yourself and the world today. And so there's fascinating
31:43
Speaker 2: research that finds that when we revisit a memory and
31:48
Speaker 2: picture a more positive outcome, I mean, this is reparenting work.
31:52
Speaker 2: This is inner child work. You go back to that
31:54
Speaker 2: memory and your adult self is there to give you
31:57
Speaker 2: what you need, to say you're safe, to say it's
32:00
Speaker 2: not your fault, to say that I'm here, I'm here,
32:03
Speaker 2: I'm never going to leave you. When people do this,
32:06
Speaker 2: you see decreases in trauma symptoms, you see increases in self-esteem,
32:11
Speaker 2: and you even see changes in the hippocampus, which is
32:15
Speaker 2: the part of your brain that records the memory. And
32:18
Speaker 2: so that is the exercises that I go into in
32:21
Speaker 2: the book are all memory reconsolidation exercises that are facilitating
32:26
Speaker 2: this process of returning to our past, visualizing a new outcome,
32:31
Speaker 2: and that actually being the outcome that continues to sit
32:35
Speaker 2: with us. Wow.
32:36
Speaker 1: You're going into that. So this is a real deal, Marissa.
32:40
Speaker 1: You're talking about, honestly, what is known as the active
32:44
Speaker 1: ingredient of a lot of trauma therapies is that re-experiencing.
32:50
Speaker 1: And as you do, creating a sense of safety and
32:54
Speaker 1: a corrective emotional experience that starts to actually mend the
32:59
Speaker 1: memory itself.
33:01
Speaker 2: This is how therapy works? This is why it's effective.
33:04
Speaker 2: That's what you're doing. Your memory reconsolidating.
33:07
Speaker 1: Wow. It's very experiential and very powerful stuff. So I'm
33:13
Speaker 1: aware of the time. Let's take another super quick break.
33:16
Speaker 1: And then on the other side of this, is it
33:18
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Speaker 1: off your 15-inch calendar. You guys, we're back with Marissa Franco, Dr.
35:46
Speaker 1: Marissa Franco. She's here talking about her latest book, Worth.
35:51
Speaker 1: subtitled the new science of self-esteem and secure attachment and
35:57
Speaker 1: marissa i'm just so happy to be having this conversation
35:59
Speaker 1: with you because i think this is such a big
36:03
Speaker 1: pain point for so many people that are just walking
36:06
Speaker 1: around in the world feeling not good about themselves not
36:11
Speaker 1: good about others and i think that it can feel
36:14
Speaker 1: so big right like so pervasive just like this is
36:20
Speaker 1: who i am It's hard to even know where to start.
36:23
Speaker 1: And so just before the break, you started talking about
36:26
Speaker 1: one of the strategies that you support, which is creating
36:30
Speaker 1: opportunities for people to reconnect with those old memories that
36:35
Speaker 1: are still getting activated and be able to heal them
36:39
Speaker 1: once and for all, which is such powerful stuff. There
36:43
Speaker 1: are others.
36:44
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So we did talk about implicit memory. Yeah.
36:51
Speaker 2: how the heck do you reconsolidate a memory you don't
36:53
Speaker 2: even remember is the question. To answer this question, well,
36:57
Speaker 2: I have a few different strategies, but one is I
36:59
Speaker 2: pull from the work of Peter Levine, who's created somatic
37:03
Speaker 2: experiencing if people are familiar with it. And he studied
37:07
Speaker 2: animals and why a, it's not a gazelle, but it's
37:10
Speaker 2: a similar animal to a gazelle. They get caught by
37:12
Speaker 2: a tiger and then the gazelle kind of runs away
37:16
Speaker 2: and you don't see any symptoms of PTSD anymore. And
37:21
Speaker 2: the gazelle isn't freezing randomly out of nowhere. The gazelle
37:24
Speaker 2: isn't randomly getting aggressive out of nowhere. And he was
37:27
Speaker 2: sort of like, why don't these wild animals get PTSD?
37:30
Speaker 2: And when he studied, he noticed that the animal, after
37:33
Speaker 2: it got caught by the tiger, would shake, shake, shake, shake, shake.
37:37
Speaker 2: And that was a sort of body-based process of releasing.
37:40
Speaker 2: And he considered trauma an excess well of energy in
37:44
Speaker 2: our body. And if we fight or if we flee,
37:48
Speaker 2: those are ways of releasing that energy. And even when
37:52
Speaker 2: you look into studies of rats, that when you shock
37:54
Speaker 2: them and they're able to fight or flee versus they're
37:57
Speaker 2: just trapped, they actually do a lot better. Their health
37:59
Speaker 2: is a lot better. And so Peter Levine is thinking
38:03
Speaker 2: about ways that humans can fight or flee. Because for
38:06
Speaker 2: us humans, when you look at meta-analyses on PTSD and
38:10
Speaker 2: what gives people the most severe symptoms of PTSD... the
38:13
Speaker 2: number one factor is whether they dissociated at the time
38:17
Speaker 2: of the trauma. And from Peter Levine perspective, that means
38:20
Speaker 2: all of that energy, the rush of adrenaline that came
38:23
Speaker 2: with going through the trauma, you just had to shut
38:26
Speaker 2: it down. So it's sort of stuck in your body.
38:29
Speaker 2: And so to him, we still have to find ways
38:32
Speaker 2: of re-accessing this energy stuck in our body and releasing it.
38:36
Speaker 2: And so We do that by going back to our
38:39
Speaker 2: bodies because these bodily sensations are really just memories, amygdala-based memories, right?
38:46
Speaker 2: The sort of sensation feeling aspect of the memory, the
38:49
Speaker 2: tightness in your chest, the lump in your throat, right?
38:51
Speaker 2: That you're feeling now because your brain is telling you
38:55
Speaker 2: that this is similar to an event in your past
38:57
Speaker 2: that has been unprocessed. And so he has exercises that
39:00
Speaker 2: I detail in the book, which are like tracking exercises
39:03
Speaker 2: where you notice that lump in your throat and you
39:06
Speaker 2: focus on it and then you feel it start to move,
39:09
Speaker 2: start to move through you. And you can literally feel
39:11
Speaker 2: the shift in the energy throughout your body. And that's
39:15
Speaker 2: how you can begin to release some of this implicit
39:17
Speaker 2: memory is to start being much more aware of what's
39:20
Speaker 2: happening in your body and attuning to it.
39:22
Speaker 1: I mean, like somatic psychology is a whole thing. I
39:27
Speaker 1: love the one thing you share, just like notice you know,
39:30
Speaker 1: if you have something like a lump in your throat.
39:33
Speaker 1: And I am curious to know if for any of
39:35
Speaker 1: our friends who are here with us who want to
39:39
Speaker 1: do this work, who know on some level, like, yeah,
39:42
Speaker 1: I need to do this work. I have like unmetabolized
39:45
Speaker 1: physical health. trauma, maybe nothing physical happened to you, but
39:50
Speaker 1: there's that trapped energy. Are there other things that do
39:55
Speaker 1: you feel like are things that, you know, anybody listening
39:58
Speaker 1: to this could do at home on their own versus,
40:01
Speaker 1: you know, what might they need the support of a
40:04
Speaker 1: somatic therapist for? And if you could speak a little
40:08
Speaker 1: bit about what that looks like, what you might do
40:11
Speaker 1: to find an appropriate provider, because I think that that
40:13
Speaker 1: can also be a real barrier to doing this work?
40:16
Speaker 1: Not all therapists are the same.
40:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. That's a great question. I think Sometimes this
40:24
Speaker 2: might feel very foreign to people, hard to access. It
40:28
Speaker 2: can also feel dysregulating, like too scary. And I say,
40:32
Speaker 2: listen to yourself. If you're like, I don't want to
40:34
Speaker 2: do that. That feels scary. That feels unsafe. Or I
40:37
Speaker 2: feel myself shutting down when I think about this. That's
40:40
Speaker 2: maybe a sign that you can take some of these
40:42
Speaker 2: exercises and bring them to your therapist and use them
40:44
Speaker 2: with your therapist to try to get help. Peter Levine
40:47
Speaker 2: has a great website of somatic experiencing therapists that can
40:52
Speaker 2: help you do this work of reconsolidating implicit memories and
40:56
Speaker 2: related to what your question about other strategies. So there's
40:59
Speaker 2: another theory that I came across while writing the book
41:01
Speaker 2: called working memory theory. This is basically the idea that
41:05
Speaker 2: we can only hold so many things in our minds
41:08
Speaker 2: at once before our mind gets overwhelmed.
41:11
Speaker 1: I don't know, Marissa. I keep trying to like cram
41:13
Speaker 1: more stuff on the top of the other stuff. So
41:16
Speaker 1: I'm testing that one on myself.
41:17
Speaker 2: No, but Lisa, that's actually exactly what the strategy warrants
41:22
Speaker 2: because basically if you try to multitask and focus on
41:26
Speaker 2: a trigger while focusing on something else simultaneously, your brain
41:30
Speaker 2: cannot make that trigger as vivid. And in some ways,
41:35
Speaker 2: that trigger actually begins to degrade when you're simultaneously focusing
41:39
Speaker 2: on that felt sensation of this tightness in my chest
41:42
Speaker 2: and something else. And this is if people are familiar
41:44
Speaker 2: with EMDR, right? You're focusing on the trigger and a
41:47
Speaker 2: ball moving back and forth. And all of a sudden
41:49
Speaker 2: it feels less intense. Or there's even research on people
41:52
Speaker 2: playing Tetris while feeling a sort of trauma trigger. And
41:55
Speaker 2: then afterward, it feels less intense. And so it's almost
41:58
Speaker 2: like holding too many groceries in one bag. So some
42:01
Speaker 2: of the groceries start to fall off. And sometimes what
42:03
Speaker 2: falls out is The trigger, the triggered sensation, the intensity
42:07
Speaker 2: of that trigger, because you can't access it as viscerally.
42:09
Speaker 2: You're sort of accessing it, but not as fully. And
42:12
Speaker 2: then you remember this sort of reconsolidated memory of this
42:14
Speaker 2: trigger being less intense. And so you can use this
42:17
Speaker 2: working memory theory. It sort of explains why things like
42:20
Speaker 2: EMDR work, which again, involves you thinking about a memory
42:25
Speaker 2: or feeling a trigger while watching a ball or a
42:27
Speaker 2: finger move back and forth. It also explains why things
42:30
Speaker 2: like tapping work. where you focus on a trigger and
42:33
Speaker 2: you tap all these different parts of your body. That
42:36
Speaker 2: sort of split attention is actually using the science of
42:39
Speaker 2: memory to try to work through some of these implicit
42:43
Speaker 2: memories and some of these triggers.
42:44
Speaker 1: Marissa, this is so good. I knew this was going
42:48
Speaker 1: to be a great conversation and I'm still like, wow.
42:51
Speaker 1: And you know what? And I think this is why
42:53
Speaker 1: somebody needs to sit down and actually read your whole book.
42:57
Speaker 1: Don't listen to this. It'd be like a couple of
42:59
Speaker 1: little takeaways because What I think I'm hearing through the
43:01
Speaker 1: lines is that what you're trying to teach people is
43:05
Speaker 1: how to, like we're talking about neurology, like how to
43:11
Speaker 1: reprocess some of this stuff at a very, not just deep,
43:15
Speaker 1: but even biologically based level, like how our brains work,
43:20
Speaker 1: how we can use our understanding of the brain, the
43:23
Speaker 1: science of memory, as you call it, to actually understand
43:27
Speaker 1: change the system, change the way that these thoughts and
43:30
Speaker 1: feelings feel inside of yourself in a very durable way.
43:34
Speaker 1: So we're not here talking about affirmations. I love that. Although,
43:38
Speaker 1: you know what? Nothing wrong with a good affirmation as well.
43:41
Speaker 1: But like, this is really like powerful stuff.
43:44
Speaker 2: Yeah. Thank you. You know, when I was first writing
43:48
Speaker 2: the book, I had someone reach out to me who
43:51
Speaker 2: read Platonic and they were like, you're telling me all
43:53
Speaker 2: of these strategies to act secure, but it feels like
43:55
Speaker 2: something different to actually feel that in your nervous system
43:59
Speaker 2: to feel like this isn't an act that I'm putting
44:01
Speaker 2: on to be regulated, but I'm actually feeling regulated. And
44:05
Speaker 2: I wanted to take on that challenge and to see,
44:08
Speaker 2: is there a way that we can't, we don't just
44:10
Speaker 2: like learn these tools when we're so activated to try
44:14
Speaker 2: to express ourselves in a peaceful manner, but we actually
44:16
Speaker 2: start feeling less activated at the level of the nervous system.
44:21
Speaker 2: And so I spent these last few years trying to
44:23
Speaker 2: figure out the best science to actually do that. Okay.
44:28
Speaker 1: Can I ask you another question? And so this is
44:30
Speaker 1: something that has come up more than once, unfortunately, and
44:35
Speaker 1: not naming names. And I don't want any clients to
44:38
Speaker 1: be like, oh, she's talking about me because I have
44:40
Speaker 1: had this experience numerous times. I'm not talking about any
44:43
Speaker 1: one person. But what I have encountered, not infrequently, particularly
44:50
Speaker 1: when people have had very challenging early life experiences with
44:55
Speaker 1: unsafe primary caregivers have some of that pre-verbal stuff going on.
45:01
Speaker 1: When I have, in my role as a therapist, attempted
45:04
Speaker 1: to guide people back into memories, like inner child work,
45:09
Speaker 1: reparenting work, I can get them to access their adult self.
45:14
Speaker 1: We can go find that baby. But the visceral reaction
45:21
Speaker 1: is like, F that baby. I hate that baby. I
45:25
Speaker 1: don't want to have anything to do with that baby.
45:27
Speaker 1: Let me tell you what a bad baby that is.
45:30
Speaker 1: Even in this adult self, they cannot even find the
45:35
Speaker 1: ability to go soothe this hurting child. Have you come
45:41
Speaker 1: across that at all?
45:42
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So here's the struggle with memory. Reconsolidation that you're
45:46
Speaker 2: referring to is that when we go back to that memory,
45:51
Speaker 2: We're still ourselves, going back to that memory, ourselves who
45:55
Speaker 2: might struggle with worth and have a hard time finding
45:57
Speaker 2: grounding and offering care. And there's this great psychologist, Robert
46:01
Speaker 2: Hart Harris. He talks about how when things are chaotic
46:05
Speaker 2: in our lives, one of the ways we handle that
46:08
Speaker 2: is by making our very selves predictable. And that may
46:12
Speaker 2: sound like a good thing, right? But to be insecure,
46:15
Speaker 2: to feel low self-worth, that is a problem of making
46:19
Speaker 2: yourself too predictable. You already know people are going to
46:21
Speaker 2: reject you. You already know people are going to harm you.
46:24
Speaker 2: You already know people are going to abandon you so
46:26
Speaker 2: much so that you're not actually taking in information in
46:28
Speaker 2: the present anymore. And so finding a sense of worth
46:32
Speaker 2: is almost about not knowing who you are. It's about
46:36
Speaker 2: giving yourself more flexibility that I don't know which outcome
46:39
Speaker 2: is going to come that I don't always have to
46:41
Speaker 2: have this sort of rigid relationship with myself where I'm
46:45
Speaker 2: always so mean or always so critical or always so negative.
46:49
Speaker 2: But it's so threatening to change that rigid sense of
46:52
Speaker 2: self because that gave you the sense of predictability, even
46:56
Speaker 2: if it was negative predictability. It made you feel like
46:59
Speaker 2: something is constant. something I can predict, something is regular
47:04
Speaker 2: in my life, even if it's my own criticism and
47:07
Speaker 2: my own negativity. And so that's why it can be
47:09
Speaker 2: really threatening to change some of these things. And that's,
47:13
Speaker 2: you know, I have another chapter on internal family systems
47:15
Speaker 2: for this reason, which is sometimes we can't go straight
47:18
Speaker 2: to the memory because there's these parts of ourselves that
47:21
Speaker 2: are like, I don't want to change that because we
47:25
Speaker 2: have other memories that indicate that when we are weak,
47:30
Speaker 2: we should be shamed. And there's other parts of ourselves
47:32
Speaker 2: that are holding those memories. And we might need to
47:35
Speaker 2: go to those parts first and go to that part
47:38
Speaker 2: of you that's saying, screw that baby, F that baby,
47:42
Speaker 2: and be like, what role are you playing here? How
47:45
Speaker 2: old do you feel? What makes you feel like you
47:47
Speaker 2: need to play this role? What do you need from me?
47:49
Speaker 2: What do you need to hear? What would feel reassuring
47:51
Speaker 2: to you? And spend time with our resistance before we
47:57
Speaker 2: can go deeper into that memory from a place of groundedness.
48:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, such powerful stuff. And, you know, just
48:05
Speaker 1: for anybody listening, and this comes from parts theory as well,
48:09
Speaker 1: you know, it's not uncommon for people to also believe like, no,
48:14
Speaker 1: this is how I could be better, or this is
48:18
Speaker 1: how I could, there's like a very protective, quality. Um,
48:23
Speaker 1: may I, if it's okay, also do a super quick
48:27
Speaker 1: plug for a workbook that came out within the last
48:31
Speaker 1: year or two by, by Dick Schwartz, the founder of
48:34
Speaker 1: internal family systems, where he actually walks people through some,
48:38
Speaker 1: I thought great exercises in order just to, to mobilize, uh,
48:42
Speaker 1: or even get visibility into different parts of the self.
48:46
Speaker 1: He has a children's book out fairly recently. If you
48:49
Speaker 1: want to scroll back through my feed, I had the
48:51
Speaker 1: great privilege of interviewing on this show. It's probably about
48:55
Speaker 1: a year ago, but you'll find that episode and talking
48:58
Speaker 1: about some of the steps to get into the different
49:00
Speaker 1: parts because it seems like that can be a very
49:02
Speaker 1: salient part of this work, Marissa, depending on what we're
49:07
Speaker 1: needing to get into. Yeah.
49:08
Speaker 2: Lisa, I wanted to make a larger point about that.
49:10
Speaker 2: And it's that These strategies need to be attuned to
49:15
Speaker 2: you and where your unique nervous system is at. Because
49:19
Speaker 2: even when you said like affirmations, affirmations help a lot
49:22
Speaker 2: of people. But for people with low self-worth to say,
49:25
Speaker 2: I am loved, it actually makes them feel worse because
49:27
Speaker 2: it reveals how entrenched their low sense of self is. It's,
49:32
Speaker 2: you know, I don't actually feel this way. I feel
49:34
Speaker 2: like I'm alienating myself and gaslighting myself, right? And so
49:37
Speaker 2: it has to be, if you're not internalizing it, if
49:40
Speaker 2: you're not feeling a shift, if you're as you go
49:44
Speaker 2: through these activities, then you might have to start with
49:47
Speaker 2: a different act. You might have to start with just
49:48
Speaker 2: finding a sense of safety, finding a sense of groundedness
49:51
Speaker 2: before you go back into the memory And so permission,
49:54
Speaker 2: just want to give people permission. It's not just about
49:57
Speaker 2: following the book word to word. It's about continuing to
50:00
Speaker 2: check in with yourself. Do I feel a change? Do
50:03
Speaker 2: I feel a shift or do I feel my resistance?
50:06
Speaker 2: And how do I adjust which exercises I do based
50:09
Speaker 2: off of what actually, what I can actually, my own
50:12
Speaker 2: nervous system is ready to internalize. And I've made that
50:15
Speaker 2: mistake in therapy from feeling like, I just want to
50:17
Speaker 2: get better. I just want to get better. I'm instead
50:21
Speaker 2: of I need to be patient with these parts of
50:23
Speaker 2: myself that aren't ready and stop and make them feel
50:28
Speaker 2: safe too.
50:28
Speaker 1: Yeah. Thank you so much for saying that. And also just,
50:32
Speaker 1: you know, for raising the, the big part that there's
50:35
Speaker 1: also like a continuum, there's a spectrum. Not everybody has
50:38
Speaker 1: the same experiences. Not everybody needs the same thing. And
50:41
Speaker 1: for some people listening, there might be a lot of
50:44
Speaker 1: old memories that are getting reactivated. And for others, um,
50:48
Speaker 1: It might be having the opportunity to just correct the
50:52
Speaker 1: way they're talking to themselves or to have an affirmation
50:55
Speaker 1: or even to watch themselves doing something amazing, right? Like
50:58
Speaker 1: we can also change our experience of the self in
51:01
Speaker 1: that way. But what you're talking about, I think are,
51:04
Speaker 1: I mean, in my experience, the deepest and most powerful
51:07
Speaker 1: ways to change this at a very enduring foundational level,
51:11
Speaker 1: which is amazing. And that you've been able to put
51:14
Speaker 1: it into a book. I mean, these are complex ideas.
51:17
Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, go ahead.
51:20
Speaker 1: What were you about to say?
51:22
Speaker 2: Well, I just want to say ultimately this book is
51:24
Speaker 2: about becoming real to yourself. It's about admitting where you're
51:28
Speaker 2: at and admitting how you feel and not feeling like
51:32
Speaker 2: you need to run away from if you feel insecure.
51:37
Speaker 2: There was my friend that I told about the themes
51:39
Speaker 2: from the book and she was saying that I told
51:41
Speaker 2: myself I was secure and when my girlfriend would leave
51:44
Speaker 2: and I would feel so abandoned, I would just numb
51:45
Speaker 2: out and smoke weed and you made me realize that
51:48
Speaker 2: it's not about being secure. It's about being wherever I am.
51:52
Speaker 2: And now I admit that I feel abandoned and that
51:54
Speaker 2: I feel anxious. And I actually try to care for
51:56
Speaker 2: myself and tell myself what I need to hear. And
51:59
Speaker 2: so we need to start with the truth. We need
52:01
Speaker 2: to start with the truth of our own pain. There's
52:03
Speaker 2: so many forces trying to push us to come off
52:06
Speaker 2: as perfect, to deny, to suppress how we actually feel
52:10
Speaker 2: or the actual pain we're in. But really worth is
52:13
Speaker 2: about being exactly where you are is where you need
52:16
Speaker 2: to start because you need something that speaks to exactly
52:21
Speaker 2: what you need. And you only know that when you
52:23
Speaker 2: admit where you are. And there is no shame in
52:26
Speaker 2: coming in and feeling bad about yourself and feeling unworthy
52:30
Speaker 2: and feeling triggered and feeling like things get to you
52:32
Speaker 2: that you wish didn't get to you. That's actually part
52:36
Speaker 2: of being a human being and doesn't mean that something's wrong.
52:39
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, I love that. And I'm so glad you
52:43
Speaker 1: said that out loud because like You know, so many
52:46
Speaker 1: parts of our culture, it's like the goal is to
52:49
Speaker 1: eradicate all of these experiences, like just make it all
52:52
Speaker 1: go away. But what you're saying is that really that
52:55
Speaker 1: the path through is to lean in very intentionally and
52:59
Speaker 1: welcome more of those feelings in your life in a thoughtful,
53:03
Speaker 1: deliberate way, because that is how you develop a different
53:08
Speaker 1: relationship with them and yourself.
53:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, we need to stop shaming ourselves for not being
53:13
Speaker 2: healed enough and start acknowledging exactly where we're at.
53:16
Speaker 1: So before I let you go, Dr. Marissa Franco, can
53:21
Speaker 1: you tell us a story of transformation?
53:25
Speaker 2: Okay, I will. Absolutely. So I was in my own therapy,
53:29
Speaker 2: by the way, I dedicated this book to my therapist, Alyssa.
53:33
Speaker 2: And I was dealing with a part of myself that
53:36
Speaker 2: felt ashamed, that felt needy, that I was really uncomfortable with,
53:41
Speaker 2: that felt like it needed to really depend on people,
53:43
Speaker 2: but it didn't have its own sense of security. And
53:47
Speaker 2: in my own therapy, we use this idea of the
53:49
Speaker 2: divine or God. And my therapist told me to like,
53:52
Speaker 2: give that part up to God. And what do you hear?
53:55
Speaker 2: What do you see? What do you feel? And I did.
53:58
Speaker 2: And what I heard in that moment is that part
54:02
Speaker 2: of you is perfect too. That part of you is
54:06
Speaker 2: perfect too, just the way that it is. And it
54:10
Speaker 2: was so transformative for me. I was so not used
54:15
Speaker 2: to thinking about this part of me that struggles as
54:18
Speaker 2: absolutely perfect, just the way that it is. But that
54:22
Speaker 2: is what I want to give to us all, to
54:24
Speaker 2: not feel ashamed to not run away from, to not
54:27
Speaker 2: suppress the parts of ourselves that are struggling because they're
54:30
Speaker 2: there for a reason and they're trying to help us
54:33
Speaker 2: and we need to turn towards them and accept them
54:35
Speaker 2: and find a way to love those parts of us
54:37
Speaker 2: as well.
54:38
Speaker 1: Yeah. No bad parts. Yeah. Just related, you know what,
54:44
Speaker 1: a thought bubbled up in my mind a few minutes
54:47
Speaker 1: ago as we were chatting, and I didn't ask you then,
54:49
Speaker 1: but I'll ask you now. Just this experience that you had, there's,
54:53
Speaker 1: it sounds like a spiritual dimension. And I'm curious just
54:56
Speaker 1: to hear if that came up in your work at all.
54:58
Speaker 1: Because sometimes when people have trouble finding any redeemable, at
55:05
Speaker 1: least in the beginning of the work, like redeemable feeling
55:07
Speaker 1: parts of the self, and like they're struggling so much
55:10
Speaker 1: to have love or compassion for themselves, that they can
55:13
Speaker 1: align with this divine energy and feel like that could
55:17
Speaker 1: be the parent kind of voice. Or even, you know,
55:21
Speaker 1: in speaking with researchers in psychedelic therapies, that a lot
55:24
Speaker 1: of times that's what's really happening. They're unlocking the spiritual
55:28
Speaker 1: dimension where they feel accepted, right? That it's all connected
55:33
Speaker 1: and all beautiful. Did that come up as a theme
55:35
Speaker 1: at all in your research?
55:37
Speaker 2: Actually, I have a chapter on psychedelics. Because what psychedelics do,
55:42
Speaker 2: related to your point about people going back to the
55:44
Speaker 2: memory and still being who they are now, so they
55:46
Speaker 2: can't passively reconsolidate it, psychedelics deactivate the default mode network,
55:51
Speaker 2: which is known as the seat of your sense of self.
55:54
Speaker 2: And so you can go back to a memory as
55:56
Speaker 2: a third party. You can go back to a memory
56:00
Speaker 2: having a perception of what God would have had or
56:03
Speaker 2: how God would have related to the memory. These are
56:04
Speaker 2: the kind of things that really happen on psychedelics. And
56:08
Speaker 2: all of a sudden... this regular record of I'm unworthy,
56:11
Speaker 2: I'm unworthy, you look back at that memory and you're like,
56:13
Speaker 2: nothing was ever wrong with me. My parent was not
56:16
Speaker 2: in a place to give me what I needed, but
56:17
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean anything was ever wrong with me. And
56:19
Speaker 2: so psychedelics are actually very powerful tools for memory reconsolidation
56:25
Speaker 2: because they allow us to go back to the memory
56:27
Speaker 2: almost as a different person. And they deactivate the amygdala,
56:31
Speaker 2: which is the part of our brains associated with threat
56:33
Speaker 2: so that we can go back to our memories and
56:36
Speaker 2: scariest memories and feel calm and feel centered as we
56:40
Speaker 2: do it.
56:40
Speaker 1: Nice. Amazing. Thank you so much just for putting that
56:43
Speaker 1: out there as well. And I will tell our friends,
56:47
Speaker 1: so powerful stuff and very important to make informed decisions
56:53
Speaker 1: about who you want to do that work with, because
56:56
Speaker 1: that is a largely unregulated industry at this point. And
57:00
Speaker 1: so do your homework, If you go back into my feed,
57:03
Speaker 1: there is another interview with Dr. Scott Shannon based in
57:07
Speaker 1: Fort Collins, Colorado. I'm such a fan of his. He's
57:09
Speaker 1: a psychiatrist. He's been doing this for 40 years. And
57:12
Speaker 1: he has, I believe it is, I want to say wholeness.com
57:17
Speaker 1: with a lot of resources about just how to make
57:19
Speaker 1: informed choices about finding a provider and what that should
57:23
Speaker 1: look like so that you can protect yourself in that
57:25
Speaker 1: space too. So good stuff. Thank you, Dr. Lisa.
57:30
Speaker 2: Dr.
57:30
Speaker 1: Marissa, this has been such a joy. And I mean, man,
57:34
Speaker 1: your book is just so important. And you guys, once again,
57:37
Speaker 1: it is worth the new science of self-esteem and secure attachment.
57:42
Speaker 1: And Marissa, for anybody listening to this, be like, I
57:46
Speaker 1: don't want to talk to Dr. Shannon. I want more Dr.
57:48
Speaker 1: Marissa in my life. Where do people connect with you, find.
57:51
Speaker 2: You, follow you? Yeah. Yeah. So you can get the
57:55
Speaker 2: copy of the book, Worth, The New Science of Self-Esteem
57:57
Speaker 2: and Secure Attachment, wherever books are sold. If you buy
57:59
Speaker 2: it from Lost City Books in DC, you'll get a
58:01
Speaker 2: signed copy. I'm on Instagram at DrMarissaGFranco, D-R-M-A-R-I-S-A-G-F-R-A-N-C-O. Or on
58:10
Speaker 2: my website, you can download Practices to Improve Your Self-Worth,
58:15
Speaker 2: a list of them, or reach out for speaking events
58:17
Speaker 2: on finding self-worth at work and finding deeper belonging.
58:21
Speaker 1: Oh, self-worth at work and deeper belonging. That sounds super interesting.
58:25
Speaker 1: And are you doing, you mentioned worksheets, downloads. Do you
58:29
Speaker 1: have any maybe programs or experiences coming up that you'd
58:33
Speaker 1: like people to know about? Nope. The book.
58:35
Speaker 2: The book is the program.
58:36
Speaker 1: Okay. Got it. We could just nip that part right off.
58:40
Speaker 2: Thanks for asking though.
58:42
Speaker 1: So, well, Dr. Marissa, it's always a pleasure. Thank you
58:44
Speaker 1: so much for your time today.
58:46
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
58:47
Speaker 1: It was a pleasure. So you guys, such a good conversation.
59:09
Speaker 1: I'm such a huge fan of Dr. Marissa personally and professionally.
59:14
Speaker 1: Here's her book. It is called Worth. It's a real deal, y'all.
59:18
Speaker 1: This is really good stuff and I just love it
59:20
Speaker 1: so much. It's research-based and it goes deep, but it's
59:24
Speaker 1: also full of all kinds of things you can do
59:26
Speaker 1: on your own to move this forward. Now, before we
59:30
Speaker 1: end though, I do want to provide you with some
59:33
Speaker 1: resources because You know, as we were talking about with Dr. Marissa,
59:36
Speaker 1: this is deep work and absolutely you can move lots
59:40
Speaker 1: of needles by doing self-help, doing exercises, working with your
59:44
Speaker 1: own memories, doing some of the somatic exercises that she discussed.
59:48
Speaker 1: And again, on her website, she has some resources, so
59:51
Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff there for you. And I will
59:54
Speaker 1: just tell you from personal experience as a psychologist and
59:57
Speaker 1: working with people who have a lot of, especially early
1:00:01
Speaker 1: interpersonal trauma, relational trauma, It is hard when it has
1:00:05
Speaker 1: damaged their sense of self. This stuff feels so scary.
1:00:09
Speaker 1: And honestly, I have worked with people for years, just
1:00:15
Speaker 1: helping them feel safe with me before we can even
1:00:18
Speaker 1: start to do this work. Like that's how intense it
1:00:21
Speaker 1: can get. And I don't want to scare anybody off
1:00:23
Speaker 1: from it, but like, do not underestimate the value of
1:00:27
Speaker 1: having a very strong relationship with somebody who can help you,
1:00:31
Speaker 1: somebody that you trust, like a good therapist, where there's
1:00:34
Speaker 1: a solid relationship. And especially when that person is also
1:00:38
Speaker 1: well-versed in the types of interventions that Dr. Marissa was
1:00:42
Speaker 1: talking about. And please know, there are so many. She
1:00:46
Speaker 1: talked about a number of them. We talked about EMDR.
1:00:49
Speaker 1: We talked about cognitive reprocessing. We talked about inner child work.
1:00:53
Speaker 1: Certainly somatic therapies can be incredibly important. There's tapping, et cetera,
1:00:57
Speaker 1: et cetera. But what I do want to advise you
1:01:01
Speaker 1: is when you consider psychedelic therapies, when you consider who
1:01:04
Speaker 1: to work with, slow down. Do not just go with
1:01:08
Speaker 1: the first person you meet. You'll want to interview people,
1:01:12
Speaker 1: read the bio on their webpage if they have one,
1:01:15
Speaker 1: and take some time to understand really the nature of
1:01:19
Speaker 1: their therapy. specialty certifications? What is their experience in helping
1:01:23
Speaker 1: people with the kind of stuff you've been hearing about? Because,
1:01:26
Speaker 1: you know, especially on some of like the platform websites,
1:01:30
Speaker 1: it is so easy. Like saying this as a therapist,
1:01:33
Speaker 1: you're presented with 200 boxes, like check the boxes of
1:01:36
Speaker 1: all the different things that you do, right? And it
1:01:39
Speaker 1: is working with kids, working with adolescents, working with autism,
1:01:41
Speaker 1: working with sensory stuff, working with somatics, trauma, blah, blah, blah.
1:01:44
Speaker 1: And like every therapist to a degree is a general practitioner.
1:01:47
Speaker 1: You're like, yeah, okay, I've had a client that did that.
1:01:49
Speaker 1: So check at the boxes is not the same thing
1:01:52
Speaker 1: as having like really robust training in some of these modalities.
1:01:56
Speaker 1: And you deserve that. And it can also make a
1:01:58
Speaker 1: really big difference in outcomes. So try to interview at
1:02:01
Speaker 1: least three providers before making a choice. And so you're
1:02:05
Speaker 1: thinking about not just who do I feel comfortable with?
1:02:08
Speaker 1: Who do I feel like I could have a strong
1:02:09
Speaker 1: relationship with? You know, what's the vibe? But also... Do
1:02:14
Speaker 1: they actually have specialized skills and competencies to help me
1:02:17
Speaker 1: do what I need to do in order to work
1:02:19
Speaker 1: through some of this stuff? Because not all of it
1:02:22
Speaker 1: is the same. So anyway, those are some things to
1:02:24
Speaker 1: look for. With regards to doing that through my practice,
1:02:28
Speaker 1: Growing Self, I do have a few people on my
1:02:31
Speaker 1: team who have extensive background and training in this type
1:02:35
Speaker 1: of relational trauma work. reparenting work as part of it,
1:02:39
Speaker 1: attachment wounds, inner child work, like deeper somatic stuff, but
1:02:44
Speaker 1: only a few. So you're always welcome to come to growingself.com
1:02:49
Speaker 1: to schedule a free consultation, but be sure to let
1:02:53
Speaker 1: us know what it is that you're looking for so
1:02:55
Speaker 1: that we can make a more strategic recommendation because you
1:03:00
Speaker 1: shouldn't work with just anyone. This is deep stuff. And
1:03:04
Speaker 1: now you have a pathway to guide you. So, you know,
1:03:07
Speaker 1: this book is also worth, the book worth is really
1:03:09
Speaker 1: good because I think it'll give you an overview of
1:03:12
Speaker 1: like what this should look like when the work is
1:03:15
Speaker 1: doing well. And I think knowledge is power so that
1:03:18
Speaker 1: you can, you know, even if you start going down
1:03:20
Speaker 1: the path with a provider, be like, is this what
1:03:23
Speaker 1: it's supposed to be? And use your resources, use your
1:03:27
Speaker 1: own agency, right? And practice what we're talking about here
1:03:31
Speaker 1: around putting yourself in a situation where where it's a
1:03:34
Speaker 1: positive relationship. You deserve good things. You deserve healing. And Dr.
1:03:39
Speaker 1: Marissa has created a pathway to help you get there.
1:03:42
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for spending this time with
1:03:44
Speaker 1: us today. And I'll be back in touch with you
1:03:46
Speaker 1: soon with another episode of Love, Happiness, and Success.