Latest / Financial Planner Life Podcast / Interview with David Kneeshaw, Group Chief Executive of International Financial Group Limited (IFGL)

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Interview with David Kneeshaw, Group Chief Executive of International Financial Group Limited (IFGL) · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: And we're back for a special edition of the Financial Planner Live podcast.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Chris Ball is in the hot seat again and today he interviews another financial services legend.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: It's David Neeshaw from IFGL.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: We talked to David about the future of financial services within the international space.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: You do have to be more structured in how you think and communicate and act, because it's not like the old days when there were just three or four of you making decisions, like it was for us.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Before that, we go back to the beginning of his career and he shares all the ups and the downs and the realities of running a business with over 20 billion of assets under advice.
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: Clearly you've gone for working for Royal London Group, which is an insanely large entity.
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: There's obviously a lot of complexity that goes into that, and it's also a brave move as well If we're taking over another company.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: How might you build those together?
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: It was that type of work.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: You know, life throws up events which just change the course of your life.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: This is an amazing episode for anybody that's interested in how to build strong leadership teams, how to navigate a career within financial services, and he even has hints and tips for the next generation of financial services professionals.
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: First off, david, thank you very much for making the trip over and spending some time with us today on the Financial Planner Life podcast.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: It's great to have you here.
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: I'm really looking forward to delving into your career so far and how you've got to where you've got to, which is obviously a fantastic journey.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: But before we start off with that, I think there's uh in our research.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: We've obviously been uh speaking to various members of your team and they mentioned a Mexican wrestling mask that's hanging there on your office wall.
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: So you know, I thought that'd be a great way to kick off the conversation, so maybe you could tell us a bit more about that.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, pride of place.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: I travel a lot through work and indeed sometimes to holidays as well, and I've learned over the years that when I go to these places and it could be Dubai or it could be Hong Kong or Mexico city that I like to sometimes bring back a memento.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: So I usually, quite often, buy a baseball cap from wherever I've been and they say something like welcome to Uruguay, or whatever.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: But I was in Mexico City for the first time with our regional manager for Latin America and rather than just go to a boring hotel for dinner or whatever we said.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: So I looked up and said we need to go to a Lucha Libre match.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: So some of you might have seen a film, is it Nacho Libre?
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: And so it's not a tourist event, it's a good working class sport in downtown Mexico City.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: So we went to a lucha libra event and, uh, where all the wrestlers wear full-blown colorful masks, which apparently comes from a mayan tradition of fighting.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so we came out and there, of course, was an entrepreneurial young chap selling masks full masks.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: So I put it on and immediately my colleague took a picture and posted it around the company.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: So yes, there is a picture somewhere well-erking of me in a Lucha Libre mask Nice and I love it, and I do occasionally put it on if I want to appear a bit strange in the office.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: So that was the background to that.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: It was an opportunistic moment.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Instead of a baseball cap, I'll buy a Lucha Libre mask.
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: So you've actually been walking around the office with the mask on as well?
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't walk that far.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't say I walk all around the office, but I do occasionally put it on because people assume I wouldn't dare.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: So therefore it becomes a challenge.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: So I'll wander around a bit.
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: That's fair enough.
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: That's fair enough.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: So you started your career not in financial services, you actually started in newspapers and you started working for Rupert Murdoch.
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: Was that correct?
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: Yes, I'm not sure Rupert Murdoch would remember that I worked for him.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Let's be absolutely clear.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: I was probably the most junior person in the organization.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: I wasn't quite sweeping the floors, but it was pretty close.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: So I actually trained as a lawyer and very quickly realised that it wasn't for me.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: So I walked out and became a tour guide in Florida.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: That's a whole other podcast that would take hours.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: That's a great job.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: And then I came back.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: I thought I need to get a job and my stepfather made it clear you need to get a job.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: And I managed to get myself I'm not sure how a trainee job at Strategy Sales and Marketing at Times Newspapers in 1982, for those that are younger than me, wow, and I'm not sure how I got the job.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: In fact, the guy interviewed me said you don't know anything, david.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: And I went no, not really.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: That was the Sales and Marketing Director at Times Newspapers, he said.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: But he liked my tour guide story.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the sales and marketing director of Times Newspapers, he said, but he liked my tour guide story.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and he thought that showed independence and spirit.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: So he hired me based on the fact I'd been a tour guide in Florida.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: So I was the most junior.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I met Murdoch a few times.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: I thought he was an amazing guy.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I worked my up a bit, but yeah, so my formative, my first what you might call proper job, was working time newspapers at a very junior level.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: But I did meet Murdoch a few times.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: I thought he was an amazing guy.
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: Was there anything that stuck with you that he said or did when you was in a meeting with him, or anything else like that?
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: He didn't say much.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: He was quite a quiet, unassuming man to meet, yeah.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: But if I learned one thing which has definitely stuck with me is that he is very businesslike.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: In other words, he said what is the right thing to do objectively with this business or another business?
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: If I want to buy it, if I now know what the right thing is to do, I should therefore do it, unless it's virtually impossible to do it.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: In other words, do not be deflected from what is the objective right thing to do.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: And that's how I saw he made and enacted decisions, and his lieutenants around him.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: It's business comes first and it's objective and pragmatic.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: The implementation is very passionate, but the decision-making is objective and I've never forgotten that and I've never worked or seen any other company do that as well as he did.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: Wow that's really interesting and do you from your time there obviously lots of skills learned.
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: Do you carry?
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: Have you carried any of those skills with you into what you do today in your role as a CEO?
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: I think what I learned is that and occasionally, because my children are working age and sometimes they're friends because I've had an odd career they say you know how do you do this?
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: The thing I've learned from it all is if you care about what you do and people see that, they'll forgive you quite a lot and if you're organized, they think you're competent.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: So when I say to young people, be organized and they'll think you're competent.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: Say, if I say I'll ring you, ring them if I get, and if they think you care, they'll forgive you the occasional mistake.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: So be organized and care and then you build from there.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: But if you can't go in saying I'm the best person or I believe in this, what you have to do is demonstrate it.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: So be that person, care deeply about where you are and be very competent and organised and disciplined so that people think you're competent, nice.
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: And then, even if you're not sometimes they'll think you are because you're efficient and organised.
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think organisation is key, isn't it?
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: If you're not organised and you're scatty and you're not focused, it's very difficult to become successful over time.
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: So, obviously, you were at the newspapers and then you transitioned over into financial services with Swiss Life.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: No, not immediately.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: I was only actually at the Times for two or three years and then in those days the newspaper industry was, you know, quite grubby and all awfully grubby, I mean in terms it was dirty and old fashioned presses with lots of ink about, very unionized, very hierarchical, and our officers were in a sort of not very smart part of town.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: It was full of what I thought were old men.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: Of course now I think they're all young people, but at those days they seemed old.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: But I, if newspaper industry survives by working with the advertising industry.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: So I kept finding myself in advertising offices in the West End with plate glass windows and very pretty girls on reception and wandering around the building, and I thought this is clearly where I should be, rather than the grubby, unionized, elderly workforce over in Gray's Inn Road.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: So I just naturally felt this was a you know why wouldn't you want to be surrounded by younger people if you're young yourself?
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: So that's it.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: I basically got myself a job working for an ad agency in the West End, which I loved, yeah, and I did that, and one of my clients was a financial services client.
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: Swiss Life Over the years.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: So this is over the years.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: I built myself up and worked my way up the food chain and eventually one of my clients, one of the clients Swiss Life, the chief executive said have you ever thought coming being marketing director of Swiss Life UK?
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: And I said have you ever thought coming being marketing director of Swiss Life UK?
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: And I said it seems like a good idea, chris, but I don't know anything about insurance.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: And which he said, david, nobody does, I promise you.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: He said that.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: He said that's the point.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: I want an outsider to come in and help change the company.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: I don't want another insurance person.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: So that's how I got my job at Swiss Life because I didn't know anything about insurance.
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: And the chief executive thought that was a good idea, so the skills must have been interchangeable.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: Then when, as you brought them over, I imagine it was quite like a hockey stick learning curve when you were there as well yeah, I asked advice from a few friends who'd also transitioned from agency side to client side and they all said, david, in the first three months, uh, you won't know anything.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: But it takes three months for people to find out.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: You don't know anything and by that time you'll have learned enough.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: And it was true.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: But also I think, jokes apart, the skills are transferable and, coming from the ad and marketing consultancy world, they were different to a traditional insurance base, which is exactly what my chief executive, a guy called Chris Eyde who's sadly died quite young, and he realized that and said I want the skills, which is about.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: Where should this business be going?
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: What products and services is it trying to get across to people?
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: Why should they succeed?
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Why should people give us business?
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: All those things I was able to help them with which are nothing to do with.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: Is there a bell and whistle on a particular product?
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: That comes later.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: But the principles of you have to attract business and keep your clients happy, and that stuck with me for years and they're very basic.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: Why should we be in the market?
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: What products and services do people want?
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: Are we good at building relationships?
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: If, in in this case, a financial advisor tries us out, will they enjoy that experience so they come back and give us more business?
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: It's quite basic and quite simple really.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: It only becomes technical and complex when you get into some underlying actuarial tables and stuff.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: But that's secondary to me.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: The principles are fulfill a need this could be in any industry yeah, fulfill a need and make sure it's a good product and service and people like coming back to you.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: It's quite basic stuff and very generic.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: It applies to sunglasses, it applies to supermarkets and it applies to financial services.
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: They are generic skills and requirements, I believe, and that's what I think swiss life saw in me yeah, interesting, and I'm going to just chop back a little bit, because obviously you said you had a law degree, so you obviously studied law, and then you went into marketing and now you find yourself in the, in the insure, in the insurance business.
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: Were you?
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: Were you using any of your legal skills that you'd learned at university?
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: did they come in use yeah, a bit, uh, in a generic sense.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: I think, uh, a law degree is quite a dry subject and if I'd known I wasn't going to be a lawyer, I'm not sure I would have chosen it in retrospect.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: But it it does teach you, uh, structure.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: You have to structure an argument and a thought process in quite a disciplined way, with a beginning, a middle and an end, and you have to.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: That argument has to persuade people of a certain course of action, either because in some subjects it's what you believe or in some cases because case law tells you to go in a set direction.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: So I think the law degree I don't use in a technical sense and I went to law school as well after that but I do think that it teaches you to think in a structured way, to marshal facts and marshal thoughts and then communicate that, and that I think has been useful.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: I find not just me, anybody who has that legal training has that ability to structure, thought and communicate it and write it down in a way that's understandable.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: So that's always so I that's always been, I hope always been with me yeah, and I imagine it's super important when you run into big businesses, as you are as well yes, I mean the structure side you have to be, as we've got bigger and you you'll know this yourself from when you started to what you're now is that you do have to be more structured and how you think and communicate and act, because it's not like the old days and they're just three or four of you making decisions, like it was for us, in in one room sometimes.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: Um, you've got a lot more people, you're not involved in every decision, so you have to be, I think, and it's not just you, the people you surround yourself with the other decision makers.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: You'll have to think alike and and a very clear way of communicating, because it gets more difficult as you get bigger.
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I, yeah, I suppose it's.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: There's more people to be involved in the decision making and and more reporting and all the rest of the stuff.
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: And trying to cascade your message down is difficult.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: Up when there's only three or four of you, it's easy to get it, it's more difficult, absolutely, and you have to work harder at it, and it's not as easy to do as well when you're just a small group.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: I mean when we were, I say, up to about 90 people or even up to about 150, I knew who everyone was.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: We were all in one building and you could say hello to everyone, pretty much knew if someone was married or had kids or whatever.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: And now we're 550 people virtually impossible to know.
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: I just don't know everyone in the same way as I did 10, 15 years ago which is a shame, but yeah, I mean, it's just natural as businesses get bigger, though, isn't?
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: it, so you have to fight harder.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is one of the interesting things is how do you get more structured and professional as you get bigger, yet keep the small business entrepreneurial culture, and that's a constant battle.
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: It's not as easy.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: No, it's not, and I think jeff bezos sums that up with his whole kind of day one thinking, isn't it?
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: And I think their office is called day one tower as well, which is, uh, yeah, it's trying not to lose that, it's trying not to lose what made you good.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, in the first place, sir, but have the structure as well.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's tricky.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: And because, obviously, you were at swiss life for quite a while, weren't you?
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: And then?
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: And then you left.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: After, was it a decade of being with them?
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: pretty much was it difficult leaving and going on to pastures new because obviously you were ingrained, you, you had a, you know yes, um, I mean my job had changed at swiss life quite a few times.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: But, um, at the end I was starting to do pan-european work for swiss life and I found the cultural difference of working with Swiss paymasters, and their culture is very different to the culture we'd had in the UK.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: So I was finding that a bit frustrating.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: And the guy who'd hired me, chris Eyde, the chief executive of Swiss Life, had become chairman of Swiss Life Europe and so he'd sort of looked after me a bit.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: But then he left and became non-exec director of Royal London.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: Okay, so he basically said to Royal London who were looking for someone oh, you should hire David.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: I know he's a bit bored at Swiss Life.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: So it was entirely Chris Eyde who got me into Royal London.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: He recommended me to the chief executive at London, and so that's how I ended up there.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: And because you became the business development director for Royal London at the time, didn't you?
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: Yes?
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: but that's not a sales role.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: There was a sales team and I didn't have anything to do with that.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: So the group business development director role was much more looking at strategically what partnership should we had If we're taking over another company?
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: How might you build those together?
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: it was that type of work okay and it was on the back of that.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: You know, life throws up events which just change the course of your life.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Is, royal London had bought Scottish Life, yeah, uk pensions company, and they bought it for the UK pensions.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: But along the side of Scottish Life pensions was a little international life company, subsidiary in the isle of man, called scottish life international, and for the first year they didn't really know, they just sort of left it alone.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: And then they said, well, we're not really sure.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: We bought it almost by accident, yeah, and we're not sure what to do with it.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: So then the group finance director for london, who I got on with do you mind going in for six months as a project to see what you think?
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I did.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: That was in 2004, january 2004.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: 20 years later, yeah, and I came up with a sort of rescue plan or a development plan and he said, okay, I'll back that if you stay and do it.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: So I said, yes, maximum of two years, stephen.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: So I assumed I would not stay beyond 2006.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: And yet here I am in 2024.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: But life does that to you and the key of reason for keeping myself and the others the managers, is we got the chance to imagine buyout and that was pivotal, I think, for the longevity and the growth has come from the day we did the management buyout.
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: Well, let's talk a bit about that then.
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: How did the management buyout?
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: Well, let's let's talk a bit about that then.
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: How did the management buyout come about?
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: Obviously, maybe we'll flip back to your time at Royal London, but clearly you've gone for working for Royal London Group, which is an insanely large entity.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: It's the biggest provider of pensions in the UK.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: It's one of the biggest and largest mutual in Britain by a long way yeah, huge, huge entity to, and actually we want to go and buy one of their life businesses.
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: You know that that's not kind of.
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: I know obviously you were running it, but it's not like you know, as a financial planner deciding you want to buy your boss out, uh, you know, and you'll take over his book.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: It's, maybe you'll tell me actually it's.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: It's a very similar kind of thought, but there's obviously a lot of complexity that goes into that and it's also a brave move as well.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: As usual in life, circumstances sort of make life happen.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: As you can see, there's been a lot of fortuitous serendipity about my career.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: You know it's sort of weaved its way through life and I still say to some people, age 67, I'm still working out what I want to do with my career you know I'm a firm believer is that you know, life sort of happens.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: you can adapt it a bit.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: So it was very simple.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: We were running Scottish, as then Scottish Life International, and we'd become Royal London 360 at that stage and we were doing quite well and we were building ourselves in the market and enjoying it.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: And then then a new group chief executive comes into Royal London and says I see the future for Royal London as the UK mass market.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: And I'm sitting there going, our division does high net worth individuals international.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: So that's not very promising.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: If you're asking for capital for development and new IT systems and new countries and you're low down the food chain in the new group chief executive strategy, you know it's going to be hard work.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: So for a couple of years we plotted along and then people realized this and there were lots of people approaching Royal London to buy us.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: And so my finance director and I were trotting around meeting all these people and we were having a coffee one day saying these guys are all Muppets really trying to get rich, but we're going to do all the work.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, we're going to run this business.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: And we said, well, nobody, all they're trying to do it, all they do is bring money.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're still run the business.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: So I I have people, friends in the city and I had no idea how to do a management buyout.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: So I asked a few friends and they pointed me a direction of um, a guy called martkat who became our advisor on how to do a management buyout and that gave me credibility to go to Royal London and said look, you don't want us.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: It doesn't look as if you particularly want us.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: We're not priority, we're too small.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Would you let us raise the money, rather than all these people, muppets, coming in trying to buy us?
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: And they were really good Royal London, I think.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: Because they're a mutual, they can take these decisions.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: They said, okay, we'll give you three, four months, go away, see if you can raise the money and we'll hold off all the other potential purchases.
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: They're really good about it and they really helped us try and do that and we raised the money and I think you know what I found is if you have a very clear story, there are plenty of people wanting to back growth businesses yeah but you have to have a clear story yeah, a clear story and then obviously be able to execute on that, which you've obviously done time and time again, which is which is obviously very commendable as well in in terms of, in terms of going through that transaction.
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: Was it stressful?
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: Was there, you know?
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: Was there points where you maybe thought this might not happen?
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: What you know what, what, what you know what were the thoughts as you were going through it?
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: initially.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: There's been certainly moments where we thought something might not happen along the last 11 years since the buyout in 13 um, but actually the buyout went strangely smoothly I mean martin came in Kitkat came in from Wyvern Partners.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: If anybody out there wants to do a management buyout or raise money, go and talk to Martin Kitkat at Wyvern Partners.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: He's still doing it.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: He sat down and we wrote a deck saying this is the business, this is how we'll grow, this is the opportunities, this is our market All fairly standard stuff.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: And he came and sat with me as we went around all the private equity firms and found a few that were interested and it was actually did the whole thing in three months.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: We, from the moment he said in January the Royal Unsaid we could start looking and we were ready to go out in February we'd shaken hands with Petruvian who, the private equity firm who backed us by about April.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: Wow, and when you, when you met Pet petrovian, did you know that they were going to be the private equity business for you?
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: Did you kind of do a beauty parade?
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: So obviously there's a lot of private equity, uh money flowing into financial planning space and obviously in financial services in general and it's you know, from what I've read and what I've heard, it's super important to make sure that you choose your partners wisely and you know it's not just about the money, it's about the partnership.
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: And definitely shed some light on that for people, because I think they'd find that interesting we did do beauty parades, we wandered around, I don't know.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: I must have done 20 presentations to private equity um, out of which some I just get confused and frightened by financial services because it is quite technical underneath it and regulated and everything.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: So out of those I probably wrote to 40.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: Out of those, probably 10 said we don't do financial services, we do, I don't know, food or whatever.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Uh, another few said we're fine, but our fund's already full or whatever.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: So we probably saw about 20, out of which I would say serious bidders were about five.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: So so you know it's filtered down.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: And then we got down to, I think, three who we thought understood us.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: So what did I learn out of that process?
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: One definitely for me there are cultural differences between British private equity firms and American.
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: And this is hugely generalized, and some American private equity firms out there may take issue with what I'm about to say, but I found in my experience that the Americans ones, it was all about the spreadsheet and the balance sheet and they sort of thought if the numbers work, we'll do a deal, and the management team is sort of secondary.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: But I found that the British private equity firms say we'll start with the management team and we don't want to buy something where we don't believe in the management team.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: If we believe in them now, we'll kick the tires on the numbers.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: So I found the British ones, culturally, were a much better fit for a bunch of Brits like us, and so that was one lesson I learned.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: The other is that you really need to have sector knowledge.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: It's very difficult for a private equity firm that just doesn't understand financial services to understand the wacky world of actuaries and own funds, definitions of what a company's worth rather than just profit and loss and stuff.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: And so you do need sector expertise, and some have it and some don't.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: You do need somebody that, I think, believes in the management team as well as the spreadsheet, uh, but that's why you're, if you need I think you've never done it before.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: An advisor can guide you through that, because they'll know a lot of this in advance.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they'll help you negotiate, because the next step, if you strike a shake hands, you have to negotiate.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so what's in it for the management team?
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: Uh, and I had no idea.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'd never, you know, I don't know how much of the equity we should be asking for or what the terms should be, and but so your advisor guides you through that.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: You need somebody who's.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: I've done this 20 times before.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: It's fair for the management team to have X percent.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: It's fair for the management team to have a contract that says this or unfair?
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: I couldn't have done it without the advisor First time around.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: Second time around I probably could, although we still use the advisor, but first time around, I think, without an advisor holding your hand, you're just very naive.
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: We would have been very naive.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: You don't know what you don't know what you don't know, do you?
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: If you've not been through it before it's, it's tough and if you've got an advisor, it gives you credibility.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: What I found?
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: That some of the private equity firms saw us because martin had done the pre-check of us and said you should see these guys, they've got a good story.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, without that, you're just sending off letters to private equity firms and, you know, have no idea.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: So you, I think you need you need someone holding your hand.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: Just the lesson I learned I suppose the second time it gets a bit easier as well, because you um, you're a proven entity at that point.
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: Up until that point it's you know, you've not.
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: You've obviously proved that you can run a business and you can do it well, but you've not run it.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: But you've not run it as a shareholder within that business and having a big stake.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the second time round is a lot easier.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it also brings challenges because you sort of think you know stuff.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: So you then have to sort of not try and be too arrogant because there's a new investor coming in and everybody thinks of private equity as being, oh, they're scary people, but they're nervous too.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: They don't want to buy a dud company.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course you know they're spending a lot of money and it's all other people's money, it's, yeah, charity foundations and pension funds.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: So they've, they've really got to get it right and, of course, when you're much bigger, therefore if something goes wrong, it's a much scarier for the private equity company.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: For vitruvian, we were quite a small little business, so in terms of the fund, we were quite a small purchase.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: So if something went wrong they wouldn't have been happy, but it wouldn't have wiped, been a big issue on the fund, whereas this time around for sinven it matters more.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: We're bigger, we're more substantial, we're a bigger part of the fund.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: So it matters to everyone, not just us, that we get it right.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so you went from Petrovian to SIN then, yeah, and that was the second transaction, wasn't it?
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: And that was recent, that wasn't too long ago now, was it?
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: It completed?
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: January last year, 2023 was the completion.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: It took a while to sort out because you've got multi-regulators around the world and you had covid at the early part of that process.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: So, um, it wasn't the easiest time, uh, to do it all, but eventually you work your way through it and every regulator is a different time scale and a different process and there's different questions.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: So you can't just have one pack and it's all signed off.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, every regulator asks different processes, uh questions.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: So finally 23.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, they've been our owner for roughly 18 months.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: Nice and all going well, obviously, so far.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, great, uh.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: Again, for those new into the private equity world, the first year is crucial because, remember, they've promised their investors they bought this company it's going to deliver x.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: So everyone's sitting around saying, well, the first year, we better deliver what we promised the investors.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: So it's not just us that are keen to be proved right, so are the private equity.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: And, up the food chain, the pension fund has to say to its pensioners we've made good investments, so everyone's got a boss.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: You never get away from that.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: Everyone's got a boss, and clearly so.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: I have to keep investors happy.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: So they're my bosses and so got a boss, so, and clearly so, I have to keep investors happy, so they're my bosses, and um and so yeah, the first year for a private equity company.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: It's crucial that the first year results deliver what was promised yeah on your, on your models and on your projections.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm assuming you're, you're doing, you're doing well on that.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: Uh, so far.
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: First, year.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: So far it's good.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: Second year is you're more into routine life cycle of the business now because you've got the first year over and done with.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: It's a hard market, I mean you would know, but the world is is quite tough external factors, changes and regulations so nothing comes easy anymore.
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: But we've hit, we're on on budget for our targets this year, which I think is quite a good result and, and you know before, we were just talking as well about you know you're kind of going through operational shifts at the moment but you know you have been very acquisitive as a business.
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: You've made four transactions are dan friends, provident, clerical medical is there one I'm missing?
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: Or scottish providence and now ifg pensions.
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: Ifg pensions, of course, the uh, the old sovereign, uh, sovereign sovereign book.
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: So five then yeah, which, what side of the defense you prefer?
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: Being on being the acquired or being uh or acquiring?
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: oh well, there are there too.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: I like both because you wear different hats.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, they're different.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: When we're acquiring it, you're you're sort of in control of the process.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, ultimately there has to be a willing seller.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: But let's say there is a willing seller, so you're saying we think this business business is worth x, so we want to buy it.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: And you're in control of the plans about, well, what are we going to do about premises, people, it systems, products, regions, what should we do about management structures?
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: So you're in control of that and that's quite exciting, you know, putting friends, provident and rl360 together.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: It was definitely exciting and it was nice to be in control of that process.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, not the victim.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: And to use the phrase, um, and.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: But there's no doubt that there is a bit of a salesman side to me.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: So when you're standing up in front of product which is saying this business is great and it's going to be even more great in five years time, spend a few hundred million buying this business.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: It's got an adrenaline rush in that process and I definitely enjoyed that.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: But I think it's the fact that there's both.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't want to be constantly trying to flog my business to new investors.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: It'd be too tiring.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you want stability and I can't do too many takeovers because, although I enjoy that excitement, real people in my team doing operational work have to make this thing come alive.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: They have to merge the it systems and merge the premises.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: So I might go around.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Let's say let's buy something every year, but my team go slow down, david, we need to integrate, yeah, so, um, I like doing both and I'm not sure I preferred one to the other.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: I like the fact in my job that it's both.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you get to do both which is you wouldn't want to do every year.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: No.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: And you, you know, you've obviously, you've obviously done it.
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: So you know again.
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: For people that don't know you, you live in the uk and you effectively work in the isle of man.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: I do, and you've been going backwards and forwards managing some of these big transactions, managing a big business and growing it.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: You know your own business effectively.
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: Uh, since 2013, how's it been splitting your time and living in the uk and working in the isle of man?
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: it's actually.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: It's actually quite straightforward.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Um, it all goes back to when I first got the job, which was, in those days, scottish and working in the Isle of man.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: It's actually quite straightforward.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: It all goes back to when I first got the job, which was, in those days, scottish Life, a division of Royal London, and I was commuting a bit.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: I didn't know I was going to be here for 20 years.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: Royal London could have fired me.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: They could have moved me to a different job in Edinburgh or London, and so to move my whole family from Kent to the Isle of man seemed a bit risky if I didn't know my long-term future.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: So my wife and I discussed it and took the view that because we didn't know the future, let's keep the family in one place and I'll do the traveling.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: And even if we'd been based in the Isle of man, I still probably would have been flying to London most weeks for a day or something.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: And so we like England, we like Kent.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: It's a nice countryside, it's nice, good schools, my wife could visit her family with ease and stuff.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: So we decided we would stay in England and I would go to the Isle of man for two or three days a week, thinking of course that would be for two years.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: And here two or three days a week, thinking of course that would be for two years.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: And here we are, 20 years later.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: So I have been commuting and I tend to go on a Monday morning, come back on a Wednesday night or sometimes Tuesday to Thursday.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: Clearly, that doesn't happen if I'm like here in Dubai or I'm in Hong Kong, but my average week is two to three days a week on the island.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: The benefit for me is that if I have meetings with investment banks or advisors that might be coming through London, they tend to be in London and because I only live 40 minutes from London, that's quite easy.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: So if I had lived somewhere like Edinburgh, I think it'd be, more tricky.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: But because I live in London, it's actually not too bad and there are plenty of people who get on a Monday morning plane and come back on a Wednesday night and there's plenty of people who travel up and down the length of Britain in sales jobs, staying in motels and the M5 and stuff.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: So I don't think what I do is particularly difficult.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: In fact I think it's quite a privilege really and I love the fact I could be in Dubai one week, hong Kong another, isle of man next.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: I love all that difference.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: And the downside is or maybe the benefit for my wife is I'm away, away one or two nights a week but uh, the dogs, at least when I go home the dogs are always very pleased to see, very happy to see you.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: That's a good sign.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, at least someone's happy to see you and you.
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: So you've obviously been operating in the international space for for for a long time as well, now operating out the Isle of man, obviously coming back to the UK, so you clearly have a good feel for both sides of the market.
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: I mean, do you do you see there being more opportunities within the international market now within financial planning, and you know the people that.
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: You know the people that are advising clients, um based clients, based on what you see, or do you think that it's still more UK, domestic, focused?
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: Where do you see opportunities at the moment?
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: I think they're equal.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: The world is changing, mostly for the better.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: A lot of the change in the market is driven by regulation or governance or attitudes to life.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: Mostly, that's for the benefit of customers.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: Manufacturers and advisors now have to be more structured.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: They have to have much clearer plans about how they're going to offer their services, how they're regulated, the capital they deploy and, although some people complain about that, how they're regulated, the capital they deploy, and although some people complain about that, and sometimes it brings admin and bureaucracy which is a bit irritating the reality of life is that we matter, right, people in financial services matter in a way that if you're selling swimwear or sunglasses, it doesn't matter as much.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: So because it matters, governments care, so we matter as an industry.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: Therefore, we shouldn't be surprised if people care about what we do or how we behave.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: So, broadly speaking, although sometimes it's been burdensome and bureaucratic, if you look at the industry now it's a better industry, I think.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: For customers, what comes with that is structure and capital, and therefore what you tend to get is a bit of concentration in the market, both from the manufacturer side life companies, investment companies and in the advice side.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: People want to know that the people giving advice are strong, well capitalized, well governanced, and I don't think that's to be.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: I think that's a good thing because we matter, yeah, people's savings, retirement, so because of that, you've seen a lot of potential of M&A.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: It happened in life industry for years.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: You really see it now in the advisor market.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: So I think we'll see fewer manufacturers, fewer advisors, but they will be bigger, stronger, better, better known, better branded, better regulated, better governanced and that will make for a better world.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: That's been happening in the UK for many years and there's definitely, I think, an acceleration of advisor mergers going on in the UK.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm beginning to see it internationally now.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: The end result will be you still need enough manufacturers and advisors to make a competitive market, yeah, otherwise, if there's too few, then I don't think the customer benefits it's not good, is it?
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: no, it's not good.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: So we do need you need a competitive land.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: I'd love to be the only supplier, but I think that actually would be bad for the market overall and maybe bad for your business as well, because others drive you as well competitive yeah, so I think you need competitive landscape for customers to be able to to keep the tension high.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: But I think we're into a space now where my instincts are that the advisor market internationally is going through quite a lot of change.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, first by regulation and requirements of capital, which drives then some firms rise to the top, some go sideways, some change tax, some go and decide to give up books, get moved around.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: But I think that's all quite exciting, yeah, and the better players will survive and thrive, as they always do.
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it'll be interesting, won't it?
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: I think there's.
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: Internationally, there's a lot happening at the moment.
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: Obviously, there's a couple of transactions that have recently taken place that we haven't seen before, which will be good hopefully for the overall space and the profession.
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: And it definitely feels, from when I moved out in 2011 to Abu Dhabi, it just feels a much more mature, it feels more like a UK market, definitely.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: And although that brings some frustrations because it makes life a bit slower and a bit more bureaucratic, broadly I would say for the customers it's more likely they'll have a better outcome and that's got to be good news, yeah exactly A hundred percent.
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: A hundred percent, a hundred percent, and you know obviously a lot of your success so far.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: It's obviously we're talking to you and about your career, but it's also come from the great management team that you've built out as well, and you're obviously a big business now, but your leadership has remained tight, almost like Hotel California as it's been described, no one leaves us, so maybe you could give us a bit of an insight into you know what, what's kept you guys together, and also you know what.
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: What qualities do you look for in managers when you're hiring them?
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: I'm a firm believer that I always hire on intelligence and attitude.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: Okay, now you have to have some experience in there.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: You can't hire someone who's intelligent, with the right attitude, who's never worked in financial services, so you've got to strike a balance.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: But if I'm left, I've got two candidates for a particular role and one's more experienced than the other but the other, say, has a better attitude to life and shows good, intelligent use of their skills, with the right attitude.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: I'll always choose the attitude over someone who maybe has a bit longer experience.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: So I think the most important thing is intelligence and attitude.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: And something I learned over the years when I was young because I had a couple of bosses that I didn't respect as much as some, and one or two who are amazing, like I've mentioned Chris Eyde from Swiss Life, I mean, I learned so much from from him is choose your boss wisely.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: That's it.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: That's what a message I give to young people in their 20s.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: Because that person you're going to learn from, you're going to pick up good or bad habits from, you've got to be have some empathy with that person, and if they're not a nice person or you don't trust the morality, you're not going to have that empathy.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: So choosing your boss wisely as a young person is the most important things you can do, and I'm giving advice for younger people now never take a job for money in your 20s your 20s should be about.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: So this is stuff I've been telling my son, who's 29 right in your 20s, your job should be find out what you're good at.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: Find out what you like not always the same thing find out people you can learn from, who you trust your boss and your colleagues.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: Build a network of contacts that can help you later on, who also see that you're a good person.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: And and when you're 30, you say now, what do I do with all of that?
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: Now I worry about making money for my family or building some sort of reputation, but the early years don't worry about money, and I know that's counterintuitive to some people, because actually it's more important you have a long and successful career into your 50s rather than just making a bit of cash in your 20s and then finding you've been sent off somewhere because you're not considered the right sort.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: I hire and work with.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: Find people you trust you want to work with, who are intelligent, who have the right attitudes to life, who will engage who will be working together.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: You don't want silo managers, particularly when you get bigger.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: They've got to be collaborative and that's how you hire, and if you find those people who enjoy their work and enjoy working together, then much more likely they'll stay.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: Now there is a supplement to that, since the buyout is that all the managers have an equity stake.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm not naive people don't just work for love.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: They have families to bring up mouths to feed uh, expensive things happen in the world if you're a broad education, for example.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: So it's a mixture of find the right individuals who can get on together and work as a team, and then a bit of bribery is the equity participation.
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: Of course you've got to have something to keep people interested.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: People have mouths to feed.
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: Exactly, and that's an important part for them as well.
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: They start to act like an owner as opposed to you know, just another member of the team, and we noticed that when we introduced our LTIP recently with our staff that I was actually shocked at how many people found that of value.
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: Is that something that you offer across the whole of the business or is it just your key management team?
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: How does it work?
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: It's a hybrid.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: It'd be nice to offer it to every single member of staff, but what I've learned from some advice I got from others is that you have to be nice to offer it to every single member of staff, but what I've learned from some advice I got from others is that you have to be able to offer, whether it's an LTIP or equity, that's meaningful.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: If it's just like a bit like an annual bonus, then you're not changing behaviours or creating long-term loyalty, so the value of this has to be something significant.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: So if they're waiting five, six, seven years for it, there's a wow factor.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: It should.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: Waiting five, six, seven years for it.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: There's a wow factor.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: It should be paying off a chunk of of mortgage or more or doing something that's wow.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: So therefore we can.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: We've only been able to get that to about 150 of the staff.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: I'd love to have done more, but then it starts to dissipate into being not a wow factor.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: Uh, the fact it's 150.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: We didn't just keep it for six, seven.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: I think I really we're really pleased with that um and we hope um that people value that.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: I believe they do, of course, but so the lesson about whether it's l tips or equity is that if you take it, it's not a matter of too low.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: If you take it where it's a small, too small an amount to to say I need to wait five years for that because it's going to be a welfare, it's going to change the my life or pay off a mortgage or something, yeah.
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: So you need to make sure the l-tip has that value so it creates the long-term behavior yeah, yeah, and and the long-term uh, the long-term interests are aligned with everyone and you know, obviously you're kind of talking about your management team and then over to you, kind of you know you personally, with a lot of chief executives that we speak to, they've been through multiple relationships and you know you've obviously been happily married for a long period of time.
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: You've obviously got two kids, um uh that you know, the the uh based back in the uk now I believe both of them aren't you remember?
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: your son was in asia, but he came back yeah, they're both in london.
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: Now, um, how do you maintain that balance?
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: Like you know, because obviously work life, working in the isle of man three days, maybe sometimes four days a week, and trying to balance family, like what, what you know?
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: What advice would you give to people in a similar situation, or finding or finding that tough?
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: yeah it's interesting because I don't consciously sit there.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: I never have saying I have to switch off from work.
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: Okay, I, maybe I'm lucky, but I've always found that quite easy.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: If I go away with the family for a week's holiday, we my wife's family from dorset if we go into dorset for a week or two in the summer, I I don't have a problem.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: I don't have a problem.
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: I don't wake up saying if I'm not involved with work, the company will fall apart.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: I've never had that problem and I know that if they really a big problem arises, they'll phone me and say we need to chat and I'll go fine.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: So I'm quite good at switching off.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: Maybe I'm lucky.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: Or if I'm, I mean I've been on skiing holidays with mates and you see them constantly looking at their phone saying, oh, I need to know what's going on.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: I don't have that problem.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: So that could just be my personality, that I'm lucky that way.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: It also is the way that I know I've got a fantastic management team.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's key is they probably don't want me ringing them every day.
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: So the reality is I think you can let go if you know that the team can run things without you.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: So we come back to the role of a chief executive.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: I may be going off on a tangent here, which is I think a chief executive shouldn't be worrying about everything every day, because then he or she isn't doing their job properly.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: So I think a chief executive should.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: If a chief is hit by a bus and is unable to worry about work, I would like to believe the company would run itself perfectly adequately for six months, yeah, and then you're into a business planning cycle, strategy cycle, project prioritization cycle, and that's where the chief executive is getting on.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: Shall we buy a company, change a product?
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: but day to day if I was hit by a bus, the management team of simon pack, mike crellin, summer, bar well, will, sue Ann, all the others at Alistair would all carry on a caply, yeah, and then until such time as you're re-evaluating the business.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: Similarly, I would hope that if a particular functional head sales director is hit by a bus, that actually the regional sales manager would carry on quite happily for a few months.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: So I believe that if you're a chief executive who worries day-to-day about the business, then you're doing something wrong because you mean you haven't got the right management team or you haven't got a clear enough business plan, so that's, and I so.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: Therefore I go away from work knowing that I don't really have to worry.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: Of course, if you're in the middle of a takeover battle or something, it's you know, but those are exciting moments, so that's fine.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: So then it's fine.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: But day to day 550 people if they can't function without me for a week or two, unless there's a melodrama, then I'm not doing my job properly.
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: It's where a lot of I think a lot of small businesses get lost.
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: Particularly it's it's, it's the found, the business is the founder, it is not the, it's not the team and ultimately, I suppose if, with you attracting private equity investment, they need to be very comfortable that the risk isn't just you, or if you leave and go oh, when private equity buy into you, they go.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: I want to know about this management team.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: What's their contract?
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: What's their job expectancy?
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: When do they think they might want to retire?
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: They ask all that stuff.
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: Is there a succession plan?
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: If any one of your senior management was hit by a bus?
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: Uh, what would you do?
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: And you have to have all documented.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: Well, we would do this in this situation.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: If this happened, fred would take interim control.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: This would happen, and it's all they want to know all of that.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: So you have to be very structured.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and we have.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: We have succession plans for every single senior person in the company, because it's demanded of us and, in fact, not private.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: It's regulators demanded of you now as well.
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: So the isle of man regulator will go.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: What's your succession plans for the industry, for all your senior people and they'll?
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: They might say, okay, show it to us, yeah in case, uh, in case anything happens.
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: That's, that's interesting.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: And I think that another point that you said along there, which was which was really interesting as well, which was that your management team being able to pick up problems and do things with you know, without you being there, there's, there's, there's obviously no, it's obviously not been a just a kind of a smooth sail all the way up to where, to where you are now.
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: You know it's like anything.
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: You, when you think everything's going well, he's going to get a slap in the face, um, and then you've kind of got to deal with the problems.
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: Has there been any really big problems, obviously, that you can talk about, that you've had to overcome during your career or with your time with rl360, that you know at the time we're really testing, but you look back on them now and you go actually that made us stronger and better for it I've got two answers to that.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: That's sort of probably more of the.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: The answer you might be expecting was, when you're dealing with this, a lot of problems are because people don't talk to each other or they don't think ahead.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: So therefore, the most important thing is have your management team who are good at that.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: So I think broadly, I try and hire the right people, but, as chief executive, the way you avoid problems because they're actually the best ways to avoid the problems, not fix them yeah, and so I have a sort of view and most everybody who works with me knows this which is I don't expect us to sit in a management meeting once a month and solve every problem, because it's then too late.
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: If there's a problem, let's say, about a product structure, I expect the salespeople and the marketing people and the administration people to sit in a room without me and try and solve it, and then they might notify the monthly meeting.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: We've done this, we've solved it and we might ratify that.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: But if you wait for a monthly meeting to discuss all this, a your management meeting lasts 15 hours and B it's too late.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: So I everybody knows this at the company, all managers, and it's not just my direct reports.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: It might be other managers within other functions.
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: I expect conversations to happen all the time.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: If there's a problem, don't come and bleat about it in management team.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: Talk about it.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: Find out what the problem is.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: How can it be fixed.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: It might be a product issue or an IT issue.
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: Don't just wait for a monthly meeting, expect me to hear it and opine.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: That doesn't help me.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: I want to know.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: I've got people who I could change the course of events.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: So people often said to me over my life, you know how do I get promoted?
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: How?
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: Said to me over my life, you know how do I get promoted?
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: How do I do this?
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: And my lesson, the lesson I give, is if you sit around saying I have a job who's going to make my life better, nothing happens.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: Change the course of events.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: So if somebody has solved a fixed, a product problem and not waited for approval, that's what I want to see.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: The people who rise to the top with me are people who have the strength of character to go and change the course of events, not just wait to be told what to do.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: You're empowering them, aren't you?
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: Well, I may be empowering them, but sometimes they're empowering themselves.
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: And I want to know.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: I want people with the strength of character to change the course of events, not just follow events and complain about it.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: But you asked me specifically where and this is a bit left left field but when you're about 23 years old, I promise you I have never felt so scared.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if this goes back to my tour guiding days and remember this was 1982 I feel like this is going to be a good part two on the tour guide.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: I've got loads of stories, some of them not really for publication here.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: But you're standing in front of a coach and I used to do one tour, which was Sunday morning to Tuesday evening, where I used to go up from Ami to Disney World and Kennedy Space Center and Wet n' Wild and I'd do a three-day tour around there and I had 45 people on my coach and the big ticket stuff, the big financial, had all been prepaid.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: So the Kennedy Space Center, disney World tickets, all done in advance, and somebody in the head office cocked up and they'd forgotten to prepay.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: Remember, this is 1982, it's not now, so there were no mobile phones to make money transfer.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: So suddenly the guy I was just picking up people in the coach and one of the head office guys rushes up to the coach at 6 am and he's got a clipboard with a huge envelope of several thousand dollars in cash saying there's been a cock up, you're going to have to pay for everything as you go, for all 45 people.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: Okay, no problem, I can do that.
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: So we get on the coach and there's a bus stop.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: You know, you stop for a coffee break on the motorway and all that sort of stuff.
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: So we get to Kennedy, then you get back on the coach and I thought I better not leave the money in the coach.
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: That's too risky.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: So I took it with me and we arrived at Kennedy Space Center and I reached confidently out to the parcel shelf where my clipboard of money was, and it's not there, oh no, of money was and it's not there, oh, no.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: So I then I think, oh, it must have slid down there, slid down the shelf.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: So I'm tapping and I'm walking down there, got about the eighth row and go.
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: It hasn't got this far.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: And I go shit, I have left it in the motorway service station on one of the tables where I've been having breakfast with the coach driver, god.
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: And then I'm saying what do I do?
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: So?
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: And of course, you've got 45 people sitting there staring at me beginning to think something's not right here.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: So I rush off to them and I said I've really cocked up here.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: You know us, we bring several coaches a week.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: Please, please, let me in and I'll pay you back later.
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: And I must have spent half an hour hour negotiating.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they, they agreed to do it.
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow, I know this is.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: That was the key moment that saved me.
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: So I then got them off, the coach got them in, and I've got two hours.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I went with them, but today I was on the phone I was looking at pay phone, you know and I eventually tracked down the motorway service station.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: Who, who find out.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: The money's been handed in.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: Can you believe it?
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: The money has been handed in.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: That's a very, very honest person.
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, being tour guides and coaches, we were in the truck drivers section, not the public section, and apparently there's a real code amongst truck drivers.
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: Okay, it's almost like you know we're all in this together, we're all looking after each other, yeah, and so they realised what had happened, handed it in I mean several thousand dollars in cash in 1982.
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: That's a lot of money Then it was just a bit.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: So once those two moments had happened, it was then just logistics.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: So I then get them to the hotel and I do the same sob story to the hotel.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: Then we have to take them out for dinner to a nightclub called Rosie O'Grady's in Orlando.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: People who've been to Orlando might know it's a great place.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: So I get them all back and I have to shepherd them through, get them back to the hotel.
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: It's now 11 o'clock, so I've got a hard car waiting for me, which I paid for, and I drive two and a half hours down the motorway, get there at about two in the morning.
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: Then I get there at about two in the morning.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: Then I pick up the money, drive all the way back to orlando, get there about five in the morning and then at six I'm down at breakfast, all uh bushy-eyed and and and uh cheerful going.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: Great guys, we're off now.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: Then I take them to disney world, pay.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: Then I drive to kennedy space center, pay them back.
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: So I'm the whole thing's finished by lunchtime.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: And uh, I asked, the tourists at the end gave us huge tips, yeah, and I asked them you know?
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: And they said we could tell you're in trouble, but you solved it.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: And you clearly, you clearly solved it and you cared and we took pity on you.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: So we all agreed.
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: They were apparently all discussing it like this is a screw up.
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: So what did I learn from that?
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: Which is, um, if you care, people forgive you, yeah, a lot, but if they think you don't care, they won't forgive you much.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is an all life, not just tour guiding, but it's in true into a cutting.
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: Um.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: The other is, uh, and I've become a bit of a a a freak about this, you know, I'm constantly tapping in life's equivalent of tapping on parcel shelves.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: Have I lost my money?
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: I do that, I'm terrible, and I checking my passport, checking my wallet and I, I think it changed my behavior for life.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: That moment, post-traumatic stress and um, and I admit it, I thought I better admit what I've done, yeah, to their bosses, and they and I said what would you have done?
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: He said, well, you it, so you got away with it, but otherwise we would have fired you on the spot.
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: Wow, and he said but you solved it, so you're okay, but don't do it again, so fair enough.
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: So I learned it's about.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: Really, the key was for me is that you have to solve problems yourself and you have to be active in solving them, and therefore I got away with it because I actively solved the problem.
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: I didn't go and hide from it and people could see I cared, so they forgave me.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: It goes back to people know you care, they'll support you.
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really insightful.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: So that was I tell you.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: I've never had this moment as bad as that, when I realized the money had gone.
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm standing in front of 45 people whose three days I'm about to ruin, that I've never felt so scared or alone, or petrified as I was, at that moment, 23 years old.
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that stayed with you till today.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: I'll never forget it that's.
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: That's amazing, and I mean so obviously.
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: That's a significant time ago.
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: Now, trying to be as politically correct as I can, you've obviously been in your position now for a number of years.
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: What's the future for you and for the business over the next five years?
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: I'll deal with the business first.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: So when you go through raising money for investment, as we did with others which ended up being Synvent, you have to be very clear about your plans, because they know well we're investing in the future a bit of what the business is now, but where is it going?
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: So you have to have very clear plans and we have a very simple strategy slide that I've used ever since the management buyout and hasn't changed much, which is at the core.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: We're a business that tries to find and offer financial solutions that advisors will recommend and they have to think we're better than our rivals.
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: So that means the product have to be good, the relationships have to.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: So that means the products have to be good, the relationships have to be good and the service has to be good and day-to-day that is our bread and butter Around.
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: That now, increasingly, is technology.
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: You just can't do it, however well-meaning, just having loads of people moving bits of paper doesn't cut it anymore.
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: So good products and services, good relationships, good service and a commitment to improvement in technology that's really now the basic.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: You can't survive as a business in most parts of the world, in most sectors, if you don't do that, and you don't deserve to either.
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: Then you say how can we make the business bigger and better?
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: So the next ones are organic growth, number one.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: Number two are the other places we could take that model where we're not currently operating, to give us a share in a different market.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: So that might be, in our case, the EU, where we don't currently operate.
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: So can we find a company to buy that gives us EU access?
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: So that's basically saying we can take our model, people like it, people like working with us.
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: Can we go elsewhere, eu wherever?
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: So since the buyout, we've opened up in Latin America, we've opened up in Malaysia Through acquisition, we've now got offices in Singapore and stuff.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: So that's number two, new places to take the business model.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: The third thing is we work with advisors and their clients.
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: Are there other services those advisors and clients need where we could credibly move into, usually by acquisition.
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: So, as you know, we bought an investment platform, we bought a pensions business, because the same types of advisors in the same places in the world with the same types of client need those services.
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: So that's plank three expansion of services.
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: And the fourth plank, which is where a lot of the m&a excitement comes from, which is m&a, which is there are a lot of companies out there that are unloved or whose parent don't want them so much anymore or who need our distribution so we and ardan and pensions fit exactly that model.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: Or buying other life companies, yeah, and say, can we take that life company, plug it into our model, give it a bit of love, give it a bit of it support and make it a better business?
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: And so that's plank four.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: So it's organic places, new services, mergers and acquisitions, and that's the slide I used in 2013.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: And it's not much different to the slide I used with Sinven a couple of years ago, and I still believe in all those things.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: One key aspect of the future is that we have a plan stretching out five years of how we'll do all of that.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: It doesn't always happen exactly when you want.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: You might want to buy a company but, outrageously, maybe the owner doesn't want to sell.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: So you have to sort of outrageous as that, but you keep working away and things tend to happen.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: So we have a plan.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: It is a five-year plan.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: It's all mapped out and then obviously it's in granular detail one year ahead and less detail in five years ahead.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: And in amongst that now is technology.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: We are firm believers that you can't do all of that very well now unless you're really driving through technological change.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: Basically, either because the world demands it, or you need to be more efficient, or and this is increasingly the case a lot of the good advisors now have much better technology than they used to, and you need to be able to than they used to, and you need to be able to plug into their systems and they need to plug into yours.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: You can't just send manual bits of paper anymore.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: Life's not like that.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: So we are totally aware we're not perfect, but we're getting there that we're spending huge amounts of money on creating a technological hub that we think will drive m&a, better services, better relationships over a three to five year period, and we're spending huge amounts of money doing it.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: It's quite eye-watering how much money we're spending, but we think if we do that we will be the best and we don't see everybody else in our sector doing it, and we'll also be more efficient, which means we can become a more valuable entity.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: You've just made a key hire in that area as well, haven't you?
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: We have.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: We have a new chief technology officer who came from Sainsbury's Bank and he's instrumental in just transforming how we think about technology, how it works, how it plugs into products, into relationships.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: Moving stuff to the cloud begins to be beyond my expertise, but you get the drift.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: So there's just huge amounts of work going on.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: Nice.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: And you personally, yeah, I, I have no fixed plan.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, I have to be realistic.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: I'm 67, so I've probably got more of my career behind me than ahead of me.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I'm not going to sort of stop work and do nothing.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: But I am probably approaching a time life thinking I wouldn't mind a bit more time on my hands.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: So we've slowly been restructuring the business.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: So Mike Crellin became managing director a couple of years ago, so he now runs more of the operational side of the business, day to day, which allowed us to move Alistair Brogdon into the finance director's role.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: So we already made plans.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: So I think you know we can run the business day to day without me having to get involved quite so much.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: But I won't walk out overnight and if the time comes that I think it's right to step aside.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: Um, almost certainly I'll stay involved in some advisory or non-exec capacity for, and they can give me some title of some sort that makes everybody happy.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: So I won't be walking away from the business.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: Uh, I'll be staying involved for a time in probably a non-exec capacity at some stage when we decide to make that decision.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: Um, I know so I'm not making the announcement today and there's no announcement to make.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: But I think you know people understand.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: I'm okay.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: I'll say am I likely to be chief executive in 10 years time?
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: Probably not.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: Will I still be chief executive in six months time?
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: Almost certainly so, somewhere between six months and 10 years.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: Who knows?
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 3: Good good good, good, yeah, well, look, that was really really insightful and I think the viewers will get a lot of nuggets out of that.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: You've obviously had a really great career so far.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and you know, I've really enjoyed the conversation with you and it's been interesting to delve in, you know, selfishly, to a lot of questions that I, uh, I wanted answered and, and, uh, I think you've done a great job of it.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 3: So thanks very much, david, thank you, chris, it's a pleasure awesome, thank you.