Latest / The Daily Writer / Overcoming the Publishing Myths Holding You Back | Terry Whalin

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Overcoming the Publishing Myths Holding You Back | Terry Whalin · The Daily Writer

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Hey friends, welcome back to the Profitable Writer Podcast.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you're new here, my name is Kent Sanders.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm an author and ghostwriter, and this is the show that helps you grow your impact and income as a writer.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you and I were having coffee together and I asked if you believed in the Tooth Fairy or in Santa Claus, you'd probably say, no, those are nice ideas, but they're not real because they're myths.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's pretty easy for us to distinguish reality from fiction when it comes to figures like Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: However, it's not so easy for writers to distinguish fact from fiction when it comes to publishing.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I'm really glad that my friend Terry Whalen is here to help us dispel publishing myths that can lead us astray.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Let me tell you a bit about Terry before we get into the conversation.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Terry Whalen understands both sides of the editorial desk.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: A former literary agent, Terry is an acquisitions editor at Morgan James Publishing.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: He's written more than 60 books for traditional publishers, and several books have sold over 100,000 copies.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Terry's also written for more than 50 magazines.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: As a frustrated editor in 2004, Terry wrote the book Book Proposals That Sell 21 Secrets to Speed Your Success, which has nearly 200 five-star reviews and has helped many, many authors.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Terry is an active member of the American Society of Journalists and Authors and lives in Southern California.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now today Terry and I talk about another one of his fantastic books, which is Ten Publishing Myths Insights Every Author Needs to Succeed.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Here are some of the publishing myths that we discussed, and I think you're really going to love us getting into these here on this episode.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: My publisher will sell and promote my book.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Writing a book will make me famous.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: I can't call myself a writer until I publish a book.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: The editor will fix all my mistakes.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Good writers are born, not made.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: My book will be a New York Times bestseller, and the life of a writer is glamorous.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, I'm framing all those as myths that then we talk about on this episode.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is going to be really, really fun.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: I had a blast talking with Terry.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: He's just a great guy and a great author and such an encourager for people who want to get their books and their message out into the world.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: You can connect with Terry at his website, which is Terry Whalen.com, as well as going to publishingoffer.com where you can download the 11th publishing myth.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: This is a really fun conversation.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: I know you're going to love it just as much as I did.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: So here's my interview with Terry Whalen.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Terry, it's great to have you back on the show.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: You were here on the show a couple of years ago back when it was called the Daily Rider.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now we've switched to the profitable rider.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: But nevertheless, I'm always happy to chat with you in any context.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks for joining us today.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, Kent.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh wonderful, wonderful to be with you.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, from uh from daily to profitable, you've switched straight.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I I guess all things being equal, it's better to be profitable than be daily.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: But if you can do both, I guess that's good too.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's good.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: I never really considered the relationship between those two things, but uh that's good.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we are here to talk about your really fantastic book called 10 Publishing Myths Insights Every Author Needs to Succeed.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I know what you know what the book looks like.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you wrote it, but I always like to hold up um the book itself so people can see the cover uh for the clips that I'll uh wind up using on social media and other places.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um I guess my first question is what led you to write this book in the first place?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: I love the way that you have framed these myths, but was there something specific that happened in your career or in other authors' careers that led you to write a book about publishing myths?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think um what really led me to write this book is um you know, I've I've been in publishing a very long time.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: I've written all these books for traditional publishers, and and I understand that so much of the process is outside of the author's control.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's all kinds of crazy things that happen.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I uh I don't remember if I told you last time, but I I wrote a book, uh, uh got a six-figure deal for um for a book that I that I wrote for for a publisher that you know crashed and then got redone to another publisher, and that book got published.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, you know, there was a different cover in the catalog from what the book actually was, and uh, I mean, just lots of crazy things that happened in the process of that book, but ultimately uh it didn't sell.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: So the publisher put it out of print after six months.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and and uh, you know, they had a lot of money invested in this thing, you know, up front.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: But that's what happens in in book publishing, and it was totally out of anything that I could control or do anything about.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that's just one of the kind of crazy experiences that I've had doing this this publishing work.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: So with 10 publishing myths, I tried to help authors understand that uh, sure, there's a lot that's outside of your control, but there are some things that you can do and you can take charge of.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's part of why I wrote it like I did, to to give authors the opportunity of taking their own responsibility back and saying, yeah, I can do something about this too.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't just have to be at the winds of and whims of all these other people that I'm working with out there.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's interesting you you mentioned that because that's really a big reason why I made the shift from the daily writer to the profitable writer.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: In a sense, it was to part of this was, in a sense, to help writers and book authors be more assertive on the business side of what they do.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know what your experience has been, Terry.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: I assume it's probably been similar where you see that sometimes the difference between successful writers and those who maybe aren't as successful doesn't have anything to do with the writing ability or the content, but it has a lot to do with just being assertive and sticking with it and being persistent and connecting with people and those kinds of things.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what your experience has been?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, absolutely.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: Those those elements are are very important.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, just just reaching out and getting good help, you know, when you're when you're in a certain circumstance.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, I've I've watched a lot of authors.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I you know this, I I acquire books at Morgan James Publishing.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: I've been there 10 years with these guys.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so I watch a lot of these authors and they they get their contract, they're excited about a contract, and they just, you know, they sign the fourth page and scan it and send it back.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they don't change anything, you know, in the whole thing.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Other authors will want to dicker on all kinds of stuff, but those authors that do that have shown me that they they care about the business aspect, obviously, of the publishing details.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: And those details are important.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I think it's great if if they're going to do that kind of stuff.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it almost shows a high level of interest and assertiveness with even if somebody is maybe sometimes a little difficult to deal with, I would prefer that kind of a person who is just completely passive and and non-interested, and they just go along with whatever.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because, man, if you just go along with whatever life throws at you, then you're really going to be at a disadvantage in a lot of ways.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I do caution authors, I don't want them to rewrite my contract, you know, when I said I have had a few authors do that, which is, you know, way over the top.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: So there's some there's some sort of balance in this process.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would hope so.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: I like people who who do push back a little bit, some not too much, but a little bit because I want that that intensity and that energy.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's really important.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's dive into some of the the publishing myths um in your book.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we're not going to go through all these because I want to encourage people to get the book and read it.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: You've laid it out really well.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's a quick read, it's a fascinating read.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to spoil all the great info here on the podcast, but I do want to dive into some of these.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start out with myth number one, which is I will make a lot of money writing my book.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I see that you've put the most emotional one right up front there because everybody wants to make money from their book.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: But what's going on with that myth?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: I will make a lot of money writing my book.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what's what's going on with that is I'm trying to help authors have the right expectation with their book.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, money might be a part of it, but uh, I mean, you and I both know uh Dan Miller, for example, uh you know, a New York Times bestselling author that's uh spoken at a number of times at our gatherings in Nashville and such.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and one of the things that struck me when Dan stood up and spoke, he just finished doing his taxes.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, here's a guy that, you know, is has all kinds of different ways to uh make money and things like that in his life.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the things that he said was that, you know, a very small percentage of his yearly income comes from his royalties.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, there's all these authors that that think they're gonna make a killing, you know, on their on their royalties, but they don't really understand the the publishing business when they s when they say that kind of thing.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: And they have they have really the wrong expectation.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, yeah, my book's gonna be a New York Times bestseller.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if it is, does that does that mean you're gonna make a lot of money doing that?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe, maybe not.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, who knows how that's all gonna work out.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, especially when you consider the fact that the New York Times bestseller list is it's not really a completely accurate representation of the books that have sold the most.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, most people don't.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: I in fact I had a conversation with a prospective client about this literally about an hour ago.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And he was talking about, well, is my book gonna be a New York Times bestseller list?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, you know, that there are some people who have spent a lot of money trying to get on that list, doing everything they thought they needed to do, but still didn't make it.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's never a guarantee, I guess.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: No, and it's an it there's an editorial element in that list that uh a lot of people don't even realize about which books get on and which get off.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Which is which is crazy when you think about it.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you think, man, shouldn't this just be a pretty a pretty straightforward cut and dry deal?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I but it's not, which surprises a lot of people.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: So who knows?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um myth number two that you talk about in the book, and I'm not necessarily gonna just go one through ten here, but number two is the myth that my publisher will sell and promote my book.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that's shocking to a lot of people because a lot of people think, oh, I'm gonna get a publisher and they're gonna do all the marketing and promotion, but you're saying that's not true.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that not true?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and what should we do about that as writers?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's true to a degree.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, your publisher does have a vested interest in the book.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they're gonna get the book out there, they're gonna put it in bookstores, maybe brick and mortar bookstores, online bookstores.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna do their work on that.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the things that I've learned from being in this business for years is sure, the publisher may put the book in the bookstore, but all those books can be returned if they don't sell.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: So what really moves the book out of the bookstore into people's hands is the author's activity and the author promotion of that book.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's that's part of what I was trying to do in this chapter, but I was also trying to help authors understand that they are the person that has the greatest passion and greatest emphasis on their own book.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so, sure, the publisher cares, they're investing money, uh, they're investing energy, all kinds of things into your book to get it out there.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: But they've also they're also divided.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I mean, publishers publish all kinds of stuff in addition to your book.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're not just majoring on you, they're majoring on all this other stuff they're working on.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I was trying to help authors understand that that they need to take their own oomph behind their book and get it out there in whatever ways and tools that they have to do that and be passionate about that.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and as long as they're passionate and driving that marketing for the book, it's it's gonna continue to go out there.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: I had a client a number of years ago who uh I ghost wrote a book for them and they were with the traditional publisher, a big traditional publisher.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: And they they gave it a they gave it a nice boost the first you know three or four months the book was out.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: But then anytime that I would connect with with the author after that, they were always frustrated that they felt like the publisher wasn't really doing anything anymore for the book.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, well, they're not, they've had dozens of books come out since then.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: They have a small marketing team who are overworked, I promise you.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: They have too much on their plate, and they're not doing a lot for your book.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's on you to continue marketing that sucker once it comes out.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're called publishers, not marketers.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: The publisher's job is primarily to publish the book, and it does seem like a lot of a lot of authors are a little bit reluctant to really embrace that responsibility of being the driving force behind their book.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I hey, I understand.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'd I'd love for somebody else to do it, you know, but but I don't have anybody else to do that because I'm the I'm the person that really has the the passion and the drive uh behind my book.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the other the other thing here that's a part of all this, Kent, that a lot of people don't realize is um I mean there's there's more than 7,000 new books that come out every day.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that crazy?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, I mean, years a few years ago, maybe I I think I put 5,000 in my book, but it's really gone up to 7,000 now.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: And Penny Sanseveri, who runs a marketing company down in San Diego, uh tossed out that number in a workshop that I was in in San Francisco.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't confront her during the workshop, but I asked her afterwards, I'm like, man, Penny, that's a that's a big number.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Where'd you get that?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: And said she she got that from books in print.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it includes uh all the self-publishing material as well as the traditional stuff, but it just gives you a perspective that that, hey, there's a lot of stuff that's going out there into the market every single day.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And you can't just ignore that.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you have to draw your own readers, your own people to your book to get that out there.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's up to you.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's not up to somebody else.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: And in a sense, I wonder if that number shouldn't be much, much higher, not because there are more books, but because really we're not even just competing with other books that are released, we're competing with streaming services and music and concerts and all the other things that are vying for readers' attention.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: So there's so much out there, and it seems like it's increasing all the time.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: So the competition's getting harder and harder every year, I guess.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it is, and and and all the backlists.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Think of all the books that sell thousands of copies year after year, you know?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's what you're competing with too.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: But um, hey, you've you've gotta you've gotta take your own responsibility and uh and get your book out there in the best way.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I mean, even in the forward of this book, uh the Jerry B.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Jenkins, who's been a New York Times bestseller 21 times, uh, you know, he wrote, he wrote in there that uh, you know, when when he did Left Behind, um it was not a new, not his first book, you know.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: It was he'd written he'd written a lot of books by the time Left Behind came out.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: But here, 20 years later, this book, that book continues to sell thousands of copies every month.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I mean, he never expected that.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody ever expected that, but you know, it's great that that's that's what's going on with that book.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: He's I I've had I have kind of a dream list of guests I want to have on the show sometime.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: He's one of those, and I and if I ever have the chance to talk with him, I'd love to ask him about what his thinking was when he and Tim LaHay partnered together on that series and whether he thought it would be successful or whether it at the time was just another writing collaboration that might or might not go anywhere.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: And he probably had other projects that he thought would take off.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you because you really never know when you start to write something if it's gonna work or not.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: No, you never you never know.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: He actually tells the story about how when the uh when they did the that first edition of that book, they published it in hardcover, you know, with all kinds of treatments on the cover and all kinds of fancy stuff.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, nobody knew if that was gonna succeed or not, you know.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: So so Tyndale actually back then uh sort of hedged their bets.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: They only printed half of the the covers for the first print run.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because yeah, they didn't they didn't know it was gonna go, you know, they had no idea.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: So they were they were hedging a little bit their own financial investment in that first edition of that book to get it out there.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Jerry's got all that stuff, he knows all that stuff.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's amazing.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: I remember that sort of the heyday of when those books were just they had just blown up enormously, and everybody was sort of anxiously waiting, you know, when would the next one come out?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: It was almost like the almost like the the Christian Harry Potter in the sense of people were just waiting for the next installment to come out.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, I think there was a lot of overlap in the timing of those when they were published.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and you know, over 60 million of these are in are in, I mean, and and you know, I was I was working at another publisher back then, and you know, even internally in the publisher, you know, there's like, yeah, those characters are plastic and the plots are, you know, we know what that's gonna happen.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: There, there, and I think all that was a bit of jealousy, you know, from these people because you know, I got I got hooked with the first book.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: I thought, yeah, how hooky is this, you know.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: But then I read, I read all of them.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I was I was hooked on that series.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I wonder if there is an element, especially to something like fiction, where people aren't necessarily looking for caviar every meal.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they just want make they just want mental McDonald's.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: You just want something quick and easy to fill your time and entertain you.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be complicated.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I agree.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: It it is.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I th I think it's important um, you know, for every author just to try to understand some of these business things, but then apply them to their own their own life so that they can they can really succeed with their book out there.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: I that was my my part of my you know huge motivation with doing this book is I I want people's books to succeed and not just sell a few copies out there.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: So let me move on to another myth here.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And this this one gets to the heart of um a lot of writers' uh sense of identity.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the myths that you have in your book is I can't call myself a writer unless I publish a book.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now that one took me by surprise a little bit.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm curious if you can dig into that one and explain it for us.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, I mean, there's all these people that um, you know, they they don't believe that they really are a writer or an author unless they publish a book.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: And hey, I understand books, books are important, they you know, they're permanent, they have value, all that kind of thing.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: But really what I was trying to help um people see in it in that particular chapter is that uh, you know, if on average, if if they sell 5,000 copies of their book during the lifetime of the book, that would be a good number.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: And people are surprised with that.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: And really, I was trying to encourage them that they can really reach more people and you know, touch more readers if they write for magazines.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of people don't a lot of people don't think of that, you know, but it's pretty easy to reach a hundred thousand, a hundred and fifty thousand people writing a magazine article where look at the the numbers you're gonna reach with your book.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a ton less than that.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: We'll get back to the conversation in just a moment, but first I want to take a second to give a big thanks to today's sponsor, The Word Wizard.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you might have written an awesome book, but it's not ready for publication until it's been in the hands of a master editor.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's why my friend Karen Hunsinger, also known as The Word Wizard, is the perfect partner to help you craft the highest quality book possible.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason is that a great editor doesn't just correct grammar and spelling, they also correct wordiness, shifts in tone and voice, overuse of particular words and phrases, and they also enhance transitions, clarity, and accuracy.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: I've worked with Karen many times, and trust me, she is your secret weapon for crafting an amazing book.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Visit Karen Hunsinger.com for a free sample edit today.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's KarenHunsinger.com to get your free sample edit today.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now back to the conversation.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's interesting you mentioned that.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: I have recently thought about the fact that I've never really done that much to write for other publications.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I subs I still subscribe to Reader's Digest, I have for years and years, because I like those little snippets in there.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I also think as a ghostwriter, it's important for me to have I need to know a little bit about everything.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: I want to know what's going on, and those little bits of knowledge can come in really handy when you're ghostwriting.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I live Reader's Digest and I thought, man, I should try writing for Reader's Digest or some of these other popular publications.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how hard they they are to get into, but but some people make a great living writing for just those kinds of outlets.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: They do.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: They do.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I still write for magazines.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of where I came from.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: I came from the magazine world, and I've written for more than 50 magazines, and I've uh You know, I've published writing how-to stuff for Writer's Digest and The Writer and things like that.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I've I've written for a lot of magazines out there over the years, and I still do that kind of thing because I like doing it.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's fun to write these, write these stories and personal experiences and get them out there into the world.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if you were going to give one or two pieces of advice for people who wanted to write for magazines or online publications, are there certain a couple certain things that people would need to do that would help them to get ahead in that field?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean they're they're pretty basic, but um, you know, read read the magazine as one of the things.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can imagine.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when I was when I was working for Billy Graham at Decision Magazine, we were doing 1.8 million copies of the magazine every month.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, we get these off-the-wall submissions from people about you know how to wash your dog and you know, just crazy stuff that would never never appear in the magazine.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, they had never looked at decision to see what that whole magazine's about.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: So read read the magazine is the first thing.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Look at the submission guidelines because that editor has told you what they want.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: So don't send them something they don't want.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: And they in those guidelines they say that uh we publish articles that are 1200 words.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, don't send them 3,000 words or 2,000.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, right.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: You you send them something 12,000, 1200 words or less.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's not rocket science here.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: But if but if you if you send them something similar to kinds other kinds of stuff that they've done, and it's in the word link that has a snappy snappy title, has a good start, has a good middle, good ending, uh, has a takeaway, we call that.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's where you know you lead lead the reader to a single point from the article.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you had those things, they're gonna think about doing your your publishing your work.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's that easy, you know, but people don't people don't do it, you know.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: They don't they just throw some working title on there, they don't you know really put the work into the piece that they send, but if but if you put that work in and send it to them, they're gonna they're gonna think about it and uh maybe publish your work, which would be great.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: What can somebody expect to earn from something?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I know I know rates are all over the map, and I I totally get that, but but on average, if you were to if you were to write for the average kind of magazine that has uh a good subscription base, what do what do magazines typically pay for freelance writing?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, my uh I have colleagues in the American Society of Journalists and Authors, uh leading nonfiction writers group in this country, that they um, you know, they they would get a dollar, dollar and a half a word for some of these publications.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, like if you publish in uh, you know, um good housekeeping or ladies' home journal or some of those kind of publications, yeah, you can you can make some make some good good income from that.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: But you have to also realize that those guys are gonna demand a lot from you to earn that money.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you might have to rewrite it a few times.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, there's all kinds of different things that you might have to go through to get that.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, if you publish an AARP, which is the leading circulation magazine in the in the country, yeah, it's huge, you know, and you could do one of those little reader's digest snippets or something, you know, and you'd make a lot of money doing that just because that's they have the wherewithal to do that.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's fascinating.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: It it had never really uh that's not something I've put a lot of time and thought into.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate that this has kind of come up in this conversation because now I'm thinking, I mean, I do I run a membership and a this podcast, the profitable writer.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that's definitely a way to become more profitable, for sure.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: It is, it is.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: And without having to necessarily feel like you have to do all the the book stuff.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, as you said, books are important, books are great, but there's a lot of other ways to make money as a writer than just from book sales, for sure.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and absolutely, and and uh I mean, I'm I'm teaching a workshop next month at a at a writer's conference about how to create multiple streams of income.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of people write these books and they don't do anything with them.
• 28:46
  unknown: Yeah.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: Where you can, if you have the rights to your own book, you can take part of that book and publish it as a magazine article.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: It could be a blog post, it could, you know, there's all kinds of things.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: It could be part of an online course.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's all kinds of things that you could do with your own stuff.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: If if you think about it and do it.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's really good.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Let me dive into a couple more myths here.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um another myth that that you talk about in the book that is kind of related to what we were just talking about is you say that good writers are born, not made.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you talk about that as a myth.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: So if good writers are not born and they are made, what are some ways that we can make ourselves into good writers?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think one of the ways, the best ways to uh make yourself into a good writer is to um just keep keep writing, as I guess is what I'd say over and over.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: It could be long pieces, short pieces, magazine articles, books, whatever it is.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the people that the people that get in trouble in this in this business can't, uh from my perspective, are the people that think they've arrived, you know, they they don't have anything else to learn, they've got it all down, they know what to do.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Where the people that are really making it in this business are are still reading books, you know, they're still they're still learning new stuff.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're reading the trade magazines, they're they're trying to grow in their craft.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: And there is a tricky balance.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I was trying to get at this myth.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's everybody says, well, hey, I'm I'm not a writer.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, have you tried?
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what kind of storytelling ability do you have?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: How can you learn to do that?
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: And uh how can you learn to write these tools like a query letter to a magazine or a book proposal to a publisher?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um those are skills that any of us can learn.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: We need we need to learn to be able to succeed in this business.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I wonder that there's almost a disadvantage whenever whenever you have somebody who's grown up and they have some natural skill with writing, and everybody has everybody in their life has affirmed that, you know, parents and teachers and other people.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you if you graduate college or you become an adult and you kind of go through life thinking I'm a really good writer, I wonder if that's a disadvantage because you kind of assume that you have arrived and you don't need to improve, versus somebody who has enough self-awareness to know that they're they're decent, but they have a lot of growing to do.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because that person is going to be motivated to improve and to really hone their craft and work really hard.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas somebody who has natural talent with a skill, I think many times is not as motivated to really push and and grow and learn.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious what you think about that.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that's that's that's probably there's a lot of truth to that.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I've I've always told people that I I have never claimed to be the best writer in the room, you know, but I but I am one of the more persistent, consistent people that you will meet out there.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that those qualities are really what what carries you through the day.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, I mean, I'm when people when I'm at a writer's conference and somebody says to me, Hey, how about trying this?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'll usually make a little note and I'll go home and I'll try it.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, where over and over I find uh that the people I look at their stuff and I say, This is really a good book, send this to me.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Probably only 10 or 15 percent of the people that I tell that to as an editor will actually carry through and do it.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it so yeah, so if you carry through and follow follow up and follow through, you put yourself in a different category than all the other people out there.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm I'm writing this down, follow up and follow through.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: I always I try to you know make a lot of notes when I'm actually doing an interview, but once in a while I just can't help myself.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: And gosh, that follow-through and follow up is so critical, especially when you're doing things like client work, because that's that's what keeps you top of mind and helps the person that you might be working with to know, hey, this person is persistent and they're attentive and they pay attention to details.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Those are really important things.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, and I I'm I meet these writers that they're they're like, yeah, I sent it to that publisher like a year ago, and I never heard from them.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, well, did you did you follow up?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, did you did you email them or call them and ask them?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: Not not in a nuisance kind of way to say, I want you to publish this, but you you follow up by saying, Did you get it?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because stuff gets lost out there, stuff gets stuck in somebody's email, or I'm I have that kind of thing happen to me.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I know it happens to other people out there.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: The thing I've really appreciated about you, Terry, is that that you do follow up with people and you are persistent, even on, you know, you and I are kind of working together on this separate project that's not related to this podcast.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I've appreciated just how thoughtful you are with making an introduction or just following up with an email or a text or a phone call or something.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: That to me seems to be the name of the game right there.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's true, you know, and and what I found from being in publishing, it's like uh the higher up the food chain you go, um, normally those people that are usually the leaders in the group are really good communicators at the end of the day.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: They they respond to emails, they return their phone calls, just simple things that all of us should do, but a lot of people don't do, you know?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, a lot of people you send them something and you never hear anything from them.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, really?
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's that's your communication practice, right?
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're in the communication business here, folks, and so we should be communicating, you know, is part of part of where I've always come in from, you know.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: I have often been surprised at um sometimes the the the caliber of the person that I'm trying to get in touch with.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: I shoot them an email, not expecting to hear back, and and I'm really surprised sometimes at how really big name authors or people who are really well known will just send back a quick personal email.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think that's really cool.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: If they can make time to do that, then everybody should be able to make time to do that.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: I want to dive into one more quick uh publishing myth here because I want to respect your time.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: I and I I love this one.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: This is number 10 in the book.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: And the 10 the 10th myth is the life of a writer is glamorous.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that a myth?
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's all these people that think, gee, if I get if I get a book, I'm gonna walk the red carpet, and I'm gonna I'm gonna sit in sit in big bookshows and sign books, and I'm gonna go to bookstores, and you know, there's gonna be lines of people that are gonna be lined up to get my book and all this kind of stuff.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's not really how it works.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've I've sat in book signings where I sit there for a long time and nobody comes, you know?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's not a glamorous kind of kind of thing.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, there are some moments, you know.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've had amazing opportunities over the years.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: I uh, you know, our our oldest living president, for example, is uh President Jimmy Carter.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I uh years ago, I I wrote a book uh called uh Lessons from the Pit.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I wrote it with a guy, Joe Leninger, he traded for 10 years in the Chicago Mercantile, made a million dollars every year he was there, and uh retired after after 10 years in the Euro dollar pit before any of us even knew what a euro was back then.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um I had this book that had just come out called Lessons from the Pit.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I went to the American Society of Journalists and Author meetings in New York, and one of our colleagues, my colleagues, had written a book with Rosalind Carter.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so they invited the Carters to come to our little member meeting that had, you know, a couple hundred people were there.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't get to sit in the place of honor, but I got to sit um with the Secret Service people.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: I figured out where they sat.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so I asked him when I could give President Carter a copy of my book, and he said, Oh, do it right now because we're gonna uh you know eat, greet, and leave, you know, and so I'm like, oh, okay.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I got permission from a Secret Service guy.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I went over there and uh President Carter, you know, to my amazement, uh, you know, stood up, shook my hand, uh, you know, was just the most gracious, gracious guy.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I I signed my book and gave it to him.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I, to this day, Kent, I have no idea if he even opened a page of it and read it or anything, but I know for a fact that that book was the only book the former president of the United States carried out of the room that day.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so I thought, how great, you know, to have that kind of opportunity, you know.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: What a fantastic story.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how many of us, how many of us uh have had a president hold one of our books or a former president?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't, as far as I know, so it was it was a fun, fun opportunity to be able to do that, yeah.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: But that wouldn't have happened if you hadn't put in the daily work of of doing the book and the editing and the drafting and you know all the things that we think of as so tedious in the book writing process, that's what actually leads to the results.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we do have those red carpet moments, I guess, once in a while.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Every now and then.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: Every now and then.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: The the other funny element in that that story is uh that particular year, um, I was I I was traveling to New York and my bag was a little light.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: And um I got to my room and I opened it up, and I had I had left all my travel, my hang-up stuff at home.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so I didn't know what to do.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I called my wife, she and I was like panicked, and she said, Oh, honey, you're in the biggest city in the world.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: Go buy yourself a suit.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so I went down to Herald Square, bought a suit off the rack, uh, did my did my trips.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: I was going to Double Day and a number of different places before I went to my my ASJA meetings, but I was really glad that I had bought a suit to um to be there to meet the meet the former president of the United States.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to show up in you know khakis in a polo shirt, meeting the crazy.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: But Terry, this has been an absolute blast talking with you.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: I always enjoy your stories and your wisdom and your insight.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, now you do have a special deal for people who want to get a copy of the book.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell us more about that?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I um I want people to have access to this.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so I uh created a a way that people can go to uh www.publishingoffer.com and that pulls up a uh page.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's a screen of me talking about the book.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they get I have 200 over$200 worth of bonuses uh that they can get, and they get the book for$10, and that includes the shipping.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: So uh plus all these all these bonuses.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I really I really want people to get this book, read it, and apply it to their own life.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: I will put that in the show notes.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: And and by the way, for for authors who want to replicate this kind of a thing for their potential readers, how do you set up something like this?
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: Is it auto ship from somewhere, or how how do you actually set up that process?
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, there are there are automatic ways to uh ship it, but um I'm actually doing it the old-fashioned way.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you actually send it out yourself?
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: I would send it out myself, yes.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I would I sign it and uh you know if they want it signed, uh all that, all that kind of thing.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I there are automated ways to do it once once it gets overwhelming.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: So so the answer to the question is hey, I just sent it out myself.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, which is like the simplest thing in the it avoids all the complicated stuff.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: That is fantastic.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: Very cool.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: But Terry, thank you so much again.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: And uh where can people go to find out more about uh all of your other books and your work um and all the cool things that you're doing?
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's there's a number of different ways.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Terry, Terry Whalen.com is um you know my own site, but they can also, I have a site for the book, 10 publishing myths.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: They can uh get the 11th myth if uh if they go there.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: One of my friends told me that I was missing the 11th myth.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I said, Oh, what's the 11th myth?
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: And she says, Oh, the 11th myth should be that if I send my book to Oprah, she'll she'll put me on her show.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Well, yeah, that's a that's a pretty good myth.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so I decided to write that chapter and uh and I give that away, the 11th myth uh that people can uh can get uh if they go to 10publishingmyths.com so they can get that.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'll have a link to that in the show notes too.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this has been an absolute blast.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as always, Terry, I love talking with you and appreciate your insights uh and your wisdom and your story so much.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks for being a guest today.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: This has been great.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Kent.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: I I really appreciate the opportunity, and I just I just want writers to succeed with their with their books out there rather than get out there and just touch a few people, but let's let's reach a lot of people with it.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: Love that I love that impulse and that encouragement.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again so much.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, huge thanks to Terry for being a guest on today's episode.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: Terry, thanks for taking the time to share your wisdom with a profitable writer audience.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: As I mentioned at the top of this episode, I encourage everybody to go to Terry's two websites.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: The first one is his main site, which is Terry Whalen.com, where you can check out more about Terry and his work and his books.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I also want to encourage you very strongly to go to publishingoffer.com, where you can download the 11th publishing myth that he doesn't talk about in a book, but it's kind of a bonus that you can grab.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: So make sure and go do that and support Terry and his amazing work, and also where you can learn about the 11th publishing myth.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: As always, thanks so much for checking out today's episode.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that this has inspired you to be a more profitable author, and I'll see you next time.