Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / AMAZING MURAL OF UKRAINIAN MURDER VICTIM IRYNA ZARUTSKA GOES UP IN BROOKLYN AND INFURIATES PRO-CRIME JUNKIES

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AMAZING MURAL OF UKRAINIAN MURDER VICTIM IRYNA ZARUTSKA GOES UP IN BROOKLYN AND INFURIATES PRO-CRIME JUNKIES · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: A gorgeous mural of the murdered Ukrainian Arena Zarutska goes
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: up in Brooklyn, and for some reason people are angry.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: You recall when Arena was stabbed dead on a light
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: real bus. She was just sitting there, minding her own business,
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: looking at her phone when the purpse stood up, towering
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: behind her and.
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  Speaker 1: Stabbed her dead. And don't worry.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Everyone leaped from their seats and began videoing the entire
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: thing on their cell phones. Thanks for helping people, not
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  Speaker 2: but how in the world are people angry about a
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  Speaker 2: mural depicting this gorgeous victim, beautiful on the inside and
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  Speaker 2: the outside. I'm Nancy Grace, this is crimest I want
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: to thank you for being with us. A beautiful new
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: mural of the murdered Ukrainian Arena Zurutska popped up on
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: the side of a Brooklyn building, and for some reason,
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  Speaker 2: people are claiming it's part of a right wing plot.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: Haven't they heard about crime victims' rights. It's a three
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: story painting of Arena. She made national headlines when she
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: was stabbed dead by an ex con on a Charlotte
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  Speaker 2: light rail train. The mural was painted on the side
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  Speaker 2: of an apartment building in a trendy section of Bushwick
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: just a few weeks ago. The artwork is on the
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: corner of Jefferson Ave and Evergreen and it's part of
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  Speaker 2: a campaign launched by a tech ceo, Egan McCabe, to
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  Speaker 2: honor the twenty three year old artist with murals depicting her.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: And they're going to be in several cities advancing victims' rights.
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  Speaker 1: Why are people so angry?
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  Speaker 2: I don't understand that, because this is what happens on Shirement.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Why did Irena have to die stabbed dead on public transportation?
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  Speaker 3: You got to mail that was not for no re
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  Speaker 3: event at any minute.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: The community still reeling.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: Now, what makes this murder different from other murders. I'm
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: about to play you that newly released to audio, and
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: I've got to warn you up front, it's very, very disturbing.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Straight out to veteran trial lawyer who represents a lot
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  Speaker 2: of high profile clients, Randy Kessler, Emory Law School professor,
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  Speaker 2: former chair ABA Family Law Section, author of Divorce, Protect Yourself,
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  Speaker 2: Your Kids, in Your Future. Kessler, this case is a
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  Speaker 2: death penalty case because the aggravating circumstance is the murder,
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  Speaker 2: according to the state, occurred on mass transit. In a nutshell, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: you're not delivering a speech in the ABA. Why is
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  Speaker 2: that an aggravating circumstance, Randy Kessler?
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  Speaker 4: That's all they need is so pass the threshold. And
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  Speaker 4: in the law they're allowed to ask the death penalty
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  Speaker 4: because it's on public transportation. But the sympathetic factor. Nobody
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  Speaker 4: wants this guy around. They're going to get a good
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  Speaker 4: shot at the death penalty. All they needed was the
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  Speaker 4: avenue to get in. They've got it because it's public
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  Speaker 4: transportation that authorizes the death penalty.
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  Speaker 2: Ass Okay, you do know what you just did right?
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Put Kessler up. That is not working.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: I said, why is.
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  Speaker 2: It a death penalty because it's on mass transit? And
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  Speaker 2: you say, like three times, it's death penalty because it's
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  Speaker 2: on mass transit. That's not an answer. You just regurgitated
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: my question.
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  Speaker 1: But you did it beautifully, And now I see why
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: you win so many cases and snow appellate court judges.
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  Speaker 1: I hope they're not watching right now for your sake.
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  Speaker 2: Mass transit killings are dp death penalty because much like
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  Speaker 2: a titular murder where a governor or a senator or
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  Speaker 2: a president, a judge is killed. It's not just the individual,
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: it's what they represent. That's why that or police officer,
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  Speaker 2: that's why those are death penalty cases.
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  Speaker 1: This is a am I actually quean a with myself, Castler.
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  Speaker 1: This is a death penalty case.
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  Speaker 2: Mass transit because it's what it represents, mass transmit government.
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  Speaker 1: It's going to get on a bus or a train.
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  Speaker 2: If this guy's walking free with a bloody knife, well that's.
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  Speaker 4: The reader for the death penalty. You want to find
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  Speaker 4: the case is where a death penalty is really going
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  Speaker 4: to have a chilling effect. Hopefully it's going to scare
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  Speaker 4: other people. But the problem is Nancy, nobody's going to
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  Speaker 4: not kill somebody because they might get death instead of
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  Speaker 4: life in prison.
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  Speaker 5: To me, it should be death penalty because Jerry wants it.
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  Speaker 2: Really because I don't want old Sparky, I don't want
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  Speaker 2: the needle and now.
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  Speaker 1: The firing squad.
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  Speaker 2: Well, long story short, that is why this is a
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  Speaker 2: death penalty case. Because Arena was murdered on mass transit,
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  Speaker 2: which is an arm of the government, and there's a
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  Speaker 2: renner right now, and because it creates chaos when citizens
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  Speaker 2: are afraid to step on a bus ka Us.
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  Speaker 1: That is why this is a death penalty case. But
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  Speaker 1: I want to get back.
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  Speaker 2: This is something that Kessler lows and hates when a
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: nine to one one audio is played in front of
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  Speaker 2: a jury.
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  Speaker 1: Why do you hate that so much? Kessler? Because I
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  Speaker 1: love it?
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  Speaker 4: And they say picture's worth a thousand words and audio
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  Speaker 4: is worth ten thousand words. There's no way to unring
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  Speaker 4: that bell, period. Jerry hears that that equals conviction.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: Let's take a listen and see if he's right.
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  Speaker 3: Listen, Carl nine one need toe firemedic He said a
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  Speaker 3: mail stout was the one for no reason?
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  Speaker 1: Did any med.
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  Speaker 3: Medican County fire?
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  Speaker 5: What is the address for the emergency were? What is this?
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  Speaker 6: We'll really want to call? Will stay too?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, Kessler, you're right, this man calling nine one one
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  Speaker 2: what he observed makes a grown man cry.
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  Speaker 1: He's crying, Cassler, how do you think the jury is
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  Speaker 1: going to react to that?
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  Speaker 5: He is the jury.
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  Speaker 4: The jury sees themselves in him. That's the that's the
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  Speaker 4: whole point of the audio. You can sympathize, empathize, whatever
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  Speaker 4: the word is. You see yourself and you don't ever
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  Speaker 4: want to be in his position. You don't ever want
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  Speaker 4: to witness that. You don't even want to experience it,
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  Speaker 4: and you don't want to love when to experience it,
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  Speaker 4: and you feel it, it's emotionally draining, It hits you
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  Speaker 4: right here.
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  Speaker 5: That's that's a conviction. That audio equals conviction to me, I.
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  Speaker 1: Want to hear that one. I'm going to go to
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: the next, the next, nine on one, but I want
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  Speaker 1: to hear that one more time. We're hearing a grown
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  Speaker 1: man witness breaking down in tears over what just happened
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  Speaker 1: to Irina. Listen, Charlan.
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  Speaker 3: Number one, you need to fire, he said, a mailstone
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  Speaker 3: was one for no reason?
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  Speaker 7: Did a.
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: Medican County fire? What is the address for the emergency?
• 8:04
  Speaker 8: What is.
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  Speaker 5: With me?
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: A renowned forensic psychologist, TV radio trauma expert consultant, It's
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  Speaker 2: Karen Stark at Karenstark dot com.
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  Speaker 1: Karen, thank you for being with us. The man is
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: in tears.
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  Speaker 2: The man is crying, and he says I was standing
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  Speaker 2: right beside her. He's going to have those nightmares the
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  Speaker 2: rest of his life.
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  Speaker 9: Without a doubt.
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  Speaker 10: Nancy, that trauma, terrible trauma, because just imagine I want
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  Speaker 10: everyone to imagine being there on a train, innocently going
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  Speaker 10: wherever you're going, and then you see somebody being splept.
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  Speaker 11: For no reason.
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  Speaker 1: Stars Karen Karen Stark, do you see the video?
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  Speaker 2: The guy is walking around here, he is, he's about
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  Speaker 2: to stand up, He's fun in his pocket for his knife,
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  Speaker 2: plenty of time to form intent. You see what's on
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  Speaker 2: the Do you see what's on the floor. He's wandering
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  Speaker 2: around with a knife, dripping with blood. I guess the
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  Speaker 2: nine on one caller is traumatized, Karen Stark.
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  Speaker 9: Without a doubt, Absolutely, Nancy. How could you not be?
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  Speaker 10: I think everyone who witnessed that would be traumatized. How
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  Speaker 10: many people see something like that instantly riding on a train?
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  Speaker 1: Hopefully none. Guys, we have just obtained the newly released
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  Speaker 1: nine to one one calls.
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  Speaker 12: Listen, lady right now on the ground with a lot
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  Speaker 12: of blood, and everybody's screaming that she got stabbed.
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  Speaker 3: I don't know if anybody called on.
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  Speaker 6: People are just freaking out. I want some more information.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, she's on the train. She's on the train, she's on.
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  Speaker 12: The ground right now. There's people around her right now.
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  Speaker 6: I think they're wholding pressure on this.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of luck joining us doctor Thomas Coin,
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  Speaker 1: chief Medical Examiner District to Medical Examiner's Office, State of Florida,
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  Speaker 1: and never like a business there pathologists, psychologists and neuropathologists.
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  Speaker 1: It goes on and on, doctor Coin, Thank you for
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: being with us. What are they trying? Medic is trying
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  Speaker 1: to explain what's happening? What's happening?
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  Speaker 5: Sure?
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  Speaker 8: So, I mean from watching the horrible video, you can
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  Speaker 8: see that the stab womb was likely to the neck,
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  Speaker 8: just around the collarbone area, and in that area you
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  Speaker 8: have several major arteries. If the blade is long enough,
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  Speaker 8: you could certainly have cut the aorta or some of
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  Speaker 8: the branches of the aorta, including the carotid artery. Those
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  Speaker 8: vessels carry blood about a half a leader to three
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  Speaker 8: quarters of a leader per minute, So if you can imagine,
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  Speaker 8: if that that's all is cut, you can bleed out
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  Speaker 8: probably half of your total blood volume in less than
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  Speaker 8: about it too minute period. So what they're trying to
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  Speaker 8: do is put pressure on that area, or at least
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  Speaker 8: the hopes they're trying to put pressure on that area
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  Speaker 8: to stop the bleeding, but very hard to put pressure
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  Speaker 8: on that area because it's your neck the collarbones in
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  Speaker 8: the way, so it's hard to actually stop the blood
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  Speaker 8: from splurting out. It's a most times these wounds are fatal.
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  Speaker 8: It's almost impossible to get this person to the hospital
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  Speaker 8: in time.
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  Speaker 1: You said you can lose half your blood in less
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  Speaker 1: than two minutes.
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  Speaker 8: Yes, because blood flow here. These vessels carry blood at
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  Speaker 8: high volume and fast rate, and so when you cut
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  Speaker 8: that blood vessel, it will spurt out. Every time the
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  Speaker 8: heart beats, blood will spurret out. And yes, you could
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  Speaker 8: lose you know, a couple of liters of blood within
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  Speaker 8: a couple of minute windows A small a very small
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  Speaker 8: window of time.
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  Speaker 1: Guys, I want to hear the tone that the medic
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: has in the nine to one one call. Listen to
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  Speaker 1: the medic.
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  Speaker 12: Lady right now on the ground from a lot of blood.
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  Speaker 12: Everybody's springing that she got stabbed, and I don't know
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  Speaker 12: if anybody called on. People are freaking out.
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  Speaker 3: I want some more information. Yeah, she's on the train.
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  Speaker 12: She's on the train.
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  Speaker 3: She's on the ground right now.
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  Speaker 12: There's people around her right now. I think they're holding
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  Speaker 12: pressure on this weesday.
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  Speaker 1: There's a lot of blood and Doctor Thomas Coin uh,
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  Speaker 1: you're our only medical doctor today. I hear resignation. I
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  Speaker 1: hear resignation. The medic's not going hurry, hurry, Harry, get here,
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  Speaker 1: hurry hurry.
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  Speaker 2: It's like she's on the ground. She's she's a lot
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  Speaker 2: of blood. They know, don't they, Doctor Coin. Have you
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  Speaker 2: ever felt that when you're trying your best to save
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  Speaker 2: a patient and you know there's just nothing you can do,
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  Speaker 2: but you're trying anyway.
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  Speaker 8: In my earlier early years of training, yeah, and especially
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  Speaker 8: in the trauma centers in the hospital where you have
• 12:57
  Speaker 8: you know the injury is most likely ftatable. You're doing
• 13:00
  Speaker 8: everything you can just to keep that patient alive. And
• 13:04
  Speaker 8: when you have an injury like this and you've lost
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  Speaker 8: so much blood, it's almost impossible to get in there
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  Speaker 8: and repair it in time to save the patient. It's
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  Speaker 8: just it's a horrible experience.
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  Speaker 1: I know that all of the newly released nine to
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  Speaker 1: one audio is upsetting, but to me, this one with
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: the medic.
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  Speaker 2: Made me the most upset, because you know, when you're
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: in a crisis situation, a lot of people, including me,
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: just power through it and it's only after it's over
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: that you think, oh my stars, I nearly X, or
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: she nearly X was hit by a car, or fell
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: off the tree, or it's after it's over that you
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: have a sigh of relief. But here I hear the
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  Speaker 2: resignation in the medic's voice.
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  Speaker 3: Listen, there's just a.
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  Speaker 12: Lady right now on the ground with a lot of blood,
• 14:04
  Speaker 12: and everybody's bringing that she got stabbed. And I don't
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  Speaker 12: know if anybody's called on one yet.
• 14:08
  Speaker 6: People are just freaking out.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, she's on the train.
• 14:18
  Speaker 12: She's on the train, she's on the ground right now.
• 14:20
  Speaker 12: There's people around her right now. I think they're holding
• 14:24
  Speaker 12: pressure on the website.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of blood. Karon start that was the
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: most upsetting part of all the nine one one we're about.
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  Speaker 3: To play.
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  Speaker 9: Well, because you hear it in her voice when she sighs, Nancy.
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  Speaker 10: But I also want to point out and watching that
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  Speaker 10: video that Twynne is suffering. It's not that he stabs
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  Speaker 10: her and she doesn't know what's going on. You can
• 14:49
  Speaker 10: very clearly see the horror on her face, the pain
• 14:53
  Speaker 10: and the fact that she's suffering.
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  Speaker 9: Hold in her mouth before she balls down and ultimately, don.
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  Speaker 1: You're right, Karen, she's looking down.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: She's looking down she looked down at her stab You're right, Karen,
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  Speaker 2: she's just oh, she's dying right in front of us.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Here's more of the nine on one calls the person
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  Speaker 1: who's a little No, I did not.
• 15:25
  Speaker 12: We were on a different train park down the road
• 15:27
  Speaker 12: line and this is the very flat train car.
• 15:30
  Speaker 6: I think the person.
• 15:36
  Speaker 12: In the I believe it looks like them, but we're
• 15:41
  Speaker 12: not confident that she's gone it.
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: I'm not looking.
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  Speaker 6: There's a lot of people around her that they're.
• 15:48
  Speaker 12: All saying that the pupils are blown out, and there's no.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Call back to Dodger Thomas Coin. Two things, what is
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: that main.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Stabbed in the carroted and and the pupils are blown out.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: Whoever this is seems to have medical training.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: What does that mean?
• 16:06
  Speaker 6: Yeah?
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: Sure, So.
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  Speaker 8: The carotid artery is that is the main artery that
• 16:11
  Speaker 8: supplies blood to our brain. So it travels within our
• 16:13
  Speaker 8: neck along the lateral sides of our neck. It's where
• 16:16
  Speaker 8: like you'd feel your pulse if you put your fingers
• 16:18
  Speaker 8: on your neck. That that's the carotid artery. And it's
• 16:22
  Speaker 8: one of the arteries that this certainly could have cut
• 16:24
  Speaker 8: in that area of her neck, and it will pump
• 16:27
  Speaker 8: a high volume of blood out of the body if cut.
• 16:31
  Speaker 8: The pupils being blown just likely indicates that she's lost
• 16:34
  Speaker 8: normal neurologic function. I mean, as you can imagine, if
• 16:37
  Speaker 8: those arteries are cut, the blood supply to her brain
• 16:40
  Speaker 8: has been separed, and so within probably less than a
• 16:43
  Speaker 8: minute's time, her brain's not getting the oxygen or blood
• 16:45
  Speaker 8: flow it needs. And therefore, you know, her brain's not
• 16:48
  Speaker 8: being responsive. So her pupils are blown, her her cranial
• 16:52
  Speaker 8: nerves and her brain stem are not working like they should,
• 16:55
  Speaker 8: and those just simply really speak to her her dire situation.
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  Speaker 2: Kessler, or a veteran trial lawyer out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Randy,
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: I know you're looking at the video right now. You
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: do see the suspect changing clothes, getting rid of his
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: bloody clothes. Isn't it true, Kessler, that the jury can
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: consider behavior before, during, and after the crime to determine guilt.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: The guys getting rid of his bloody clothes before he
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: steps off the train, that indicates he knows there'll be
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: a problem if he goes out on.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: That platform covered in blood, right and personally, this probably
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: goes more to the sentencing right.
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: In normal cases, at flight, if you're leaving a scene,
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: you're trying to get away, you're trying to escape, you're
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: trying to hide.
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: That shows you did something wrong, you're trying to get away.
• 17:52
  Speaker 5: In this case, we know he did.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: We've got him gangut E double L n oh. I
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: spelled it out for you. That can be used as
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: evidence of guilt, of course, but what I'm telling you.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: Many generations it was actually a jury charge that the
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: general would give the jury. Somehow that defense bar got
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: rid of that, but the jury can't consider that as
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: evidence of guilt.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: We're trying to get his bloody shirt. That's not sentiencing.
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: No, but you don't you're right, NANSW. But you don't
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: leave with that. You don't leave with Look, he's covering
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: it up. When you got a video of him actually
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: stabbing her, you don't need to start with, Hey, he
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: was trying to cover it up. You got him dead
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: rights on the conviction. That's going to go further to
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: wasn't mentally instane, he knew that what he did was wrong.
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: Takes away the insanity defense, takes away any excuse for
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: why he did this other than.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: Were you drinking. What I mean, what you drinking? Smoking?
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: I was going to leave with guilty conscience with that
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: video and the nine one one calls. That's the strongest evidence.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: I would go with the video that I'm on calls,
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: and then the witnesses, every single person sitting in that tren.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Car, even though they didn't help, which they're going to
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: get cross examined on. Yes, that's then i'd bring on
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: doctor Thomas Coin, and then I would bring on Ron Bateman,
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: and then I would bring on Andy Kahn, and then
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: I would bring on Susan Hendrick. Just like that, but
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: having some guilty conscience. That's the last thing I bring on.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: But you darn right, I'll bring it on.
• 19:26
  Speaker 5: Sure it is piling on, and it's icing on the cake.
• 19:28
  Speaker 5: It's extra, but really you don't need it.
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: That's why I think it goes more towards sentencing, because
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: is there a question that there's any reason why this
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: guy should be given any breaks. No, he knew what
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: he did was wrong. That's what that does for me.
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: It doesn't help.
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: You don't need it for the conviction. I mean, sooner
• 19:43
  Speaker 5: or later it's going to be overkilled. You got him
• 19:45
  Speaker 5: Dead's rights he's guilty of the crime. Now what do
• 19:47
  Speaker 5: we do about it?
• 19:49
  Speaker 6: Death?
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Because he knew he can't help himself. I can't, Kessler.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: I love it when defense attorneys starts saying, it's over kill.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: Stop you're piling on. Isn't it true? The state has
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: one swing at the ball. If there's an energy not guilty,
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: your technical legal phrase, screwed, you have one chance.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Why not put on all your evidence.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: When a defensive attorney starts squealing and whining Overkeell piling on,
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: that's when I really dig in.
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: You can use it, you can add it. But again,
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: it's not my emphasis. The emphasis is on the act,
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: the actual crime.
• 20:30
  Speaker 5: Sometimes you don't have.
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: The photographic or the videographic evidence of the killing, of
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: the murder, of the crime, so that's more important. In
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: this case, I'm just saying it's much less important than
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: actually what happened. What happened is terrible.
• 20:43
  Speaker 5: It's on video. He's done, he's convicted.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: That is.
• 20:46
  Speaker 5: It is overkill.
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: It is extra sure you use it, Nancy, throw it
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: in there. But I would say to the jury, we're
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: going to show you this, but you don't really even
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: need it because you've already got enough to convict him.
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: But just in case there was any doubt, you're really
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: not helping the defense right now.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Now you know that, right, it really need the defense.
• 21:03
  Speaker 5: I'm just trying to explain for the audience.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: I've got something for you, Kessler. All right, you ready,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: I'm more nine to one one. Let's take a listen
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: to the newly released audio.
• 21:16
  Speaker 5: I think I'm here, man, I.
• 21:18
  Speaker 6: Paid, the girl might be there, man, the five person,
• 21:21
  Speaker 6: the guy over there's no Poe President, and the guy
• 21:23
  Speaker 6: that he is standing over here on the round, Yeah,
• 21:25
  Speaker 6: he was on the other platform. He's a black male dreadline.
• 21:29
  Speaker 6: He got a hand wrapped up in a red jacket,
• 21:31
  Speaker 6: a black teacher because the players hanging off with hand.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: In the last days, a three story beautiful mural has
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: been placed on the side of an apartment building in Bushwick.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: And for some reason, people are angry. I don't get it.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: The campaign kicked off to make sure Arena's story doesn't
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: just vanish. Her murder cannot be forgotten, and it is
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: the center of so many issues that are dogging America,
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: and that is convicted felons walking the streets with innocent
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: people this is what happened to Erna.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: To Susan Henry's joining US investigative journalist, author of Down
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: the Hill, My descend into the double murder in Delphi.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: Susan, the nine woman caller, another one of them. You
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: know a lot of the people on the train, which
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: totally is totally reprehensible.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: They don't even try to help her. They start videoing
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: her dying. What a bunch of googles. However, Yeah, go
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: on a video that I guess he posted it. Long
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: story short, several people did call nine one one, and
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: this last call we played describes the defendant.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: He was standing on the rout.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: Now he's on another platform, dreadlocks, he's got his hand
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: wrapped in a red jacket because he cut his hand,
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: a black T shirt. He's got on blue jeans, black
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: T shirt, hand wrapped up, dreads. We've got him on
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: video changing clothes and there he goes. Guys, this is
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: newly released video, and there he goes walking off like
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: nothing happened. Susan Hendrix. What's happening in the video right
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: here that we're showing.
• 23:55
  Speaker 13: We're seeing the police move in on this guy and
• 23:58
  Speaker 13: make the arrest, Nancy.
• 24:00
  Speaker 11: It's so disturbing.
• 24:00
  Speaker 13: I watched that entire video this morning. She was stepped
• 24:04
  Speaker 13: quickly three times in the neck, and you mentioned it earlier.
• 24:07
  Speaker 13: That look of horror she's looking down, probably is realizing
• 24:11
  Speaker 13: what is happening to her.
• 24:12
  Speaker 11: She's dying before very eyes.
• 24:14
  Speaker 13: What you're looking at now is the police move in
• 24:16
  Speaker 13: and that last nine one one call, Nancy. You hear
• 24:18
  Speaker 13: him say, no police presence, where is everyone? He's panicked too,
• 24:23
  Speaker 13: and I believe she falls over and dies before her
• 24:26
  Speaker 13: very eyes on that video.
• 24:27
  Speaker 7: That is huge.
• 24:28
  Speaker 11: That of course is what they'll playing port. But you're
• 24:31
  Speaker 11: looking at the arrest the video we just saw.
• 24:34
  Speaker 6: I think I'm here, you man. I think the girl
• 24:36
  Speaker 6: might be here man, and the power and the guy
• 24:38
  Speaker 6: over there's no hole reprove and the guy he was
• 24:41
  Speaker 6: standing over here on the round. Yeah, he's on the
• 24:43
  Speaker 6: other platform. He's a black male. Dread loove. If you
• 24:46
  Speaker 6: got a hand wrapped up in a red jacket, a
• 24:48
  Speaker 6: black teacher because the players like hanging up the tain.
• 24:52
  Speaker 6: He got dread Love. If you got a blue dream,
• 24:54
  Speaker 6: the black teacher and the hands wrapped up, he got
• 24:56
  Speaker 6: lauderiear oars and he no, we got.
• 25:06
  Speaker 12: Okay, definitely lady right now on the ground and a
• 25:08
  Speaker 12: lot of blood that everybody's breaking the lead up stuff.
• 25:11
  Speaker 13: That's when he got up and he subsequently stabbed her
• 25:15
  Speaker 13: three times.
• 25:16
  Speaker 12: He's on the ground right now.
• 25:17
  Speaker 6: There's people around there.
• 25:19
  Speaker 12: I mean they're pulling a treasure off.
• 25:20
  Speaker 6: He heard a lot of blood.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: We just endured the Charlie Kirk murder. And whether you
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: agree with him or disagree with him, whether you like
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: him or hate him, it doesn't matter.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: He was murdered.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: Do you recall the suspect jumped down off the roof
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: and took off and tried to blend in, and he
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: did blend him with all the other students his age.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Same thing here.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: I want you to take a look as we're playing
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: that nine to one one call one of them at the.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Defendant just mosying off. Okay, listen, I.
• 26:03
  Speaker 6: Think I'm the head man. I pay the girl might
• 26:06
  Speaker 6: be dead man, the five person, the guy over there's
• 26:09
  Speaker 6: no pre re president and the guy is he is
• 26:11
  Speaker 6: standing over here on the round. Yeah, he's on the
• 26:13
  Speaker 6: other platform either. He's a black male dread loss. He
• 26:16
  Speaker 6: got his hand wrapped up in a red jacket. A
• 26:18
  Speaker 6: black teachhert because the players like hanging off attaining. He
• 26:22
  Speaker 6: got dread loge, he got on Blue Jerens, the black
• 26:24
  Speaker 6: teacher and the teams wrapped up. He got laudary anywhere
• 26:29
  Speaker 6: or no, he got a black teacher on the hoodies
• 26:34
  Speaker 6: wrapping entertained.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, and what don't want you to look at Let's
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: see the video please of him getting off the train
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: and just calmly walking away much as Tyler Robinson did.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: Police are swarming the area. He's just like walking away.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: Don't look at me. I'm normal. I'm not running from
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: the scene. I'm totally chill.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: Check it out out, just wandering along until the nine
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: one one calls that described what he was wearing.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: Nail him.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: He's just blending in, Castler. He does not want to
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: bring attention to himself by running. His hand is dripping
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: with blood. Is he in a hurry to get to
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: the dock in a box? No, because he doesn't want
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: police to see him running.
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: Right, And these two explanations, right, One is he's so
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: clever that he's just trying to blend in and that's
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: how clever he is. Or he's got some mental issues
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: and he's mentally insane and he doesn't even realize that
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: what he did was wrong, and certainly in this case,
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: that's got a good good chance of success.
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: This guy is absolutely off the deep end, and you
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: see somebody like that, you immediately jump to why would
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: you do something like that? You've got to have something
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: wrong with you. It's got to go right to a
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: metal insanity defense. That's the only benefit. Otherwise you're thinking,
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: this is a normal guy who planned that kind of murder,
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: plan to just walk casually. He didn't plan this, He
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: didn't plan to get out of trouble. He just didn't
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: know where he was. You heard later, Right, he's got
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: going on in his head. He's got some metal issues.
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: That's why he was walking around as if he did
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: nothing because he mentally, yes.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: Sir, he's got fourteen arrests and just got out of
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Yael in January and immediately did this.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: You know what, everybody there he is there's Kessler.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: There is the true Kessler coming up with what some
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: would say is a brilliant argument that he had he
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: walked up because he didn't know he did anything wrong.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Use what today that he didn't plan the incident Randy
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: Kessler under the law.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Isn't it true that intent can be formed in the
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: blink of an eye and a twinkling of a moment,
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: As my old judge, Juge Luthor Alberson would say, isn't
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: that true?
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: Premeditation does not require a long drawn out plan, such
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: as murdering someone by poisoning them over weeks and months.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: Isn't that true?
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: It is true, and you might have That's another point,
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: which is why did he have a knife on him
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: in the first place? That probably helps the intent or planet,
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: but the truth matters. Why would he form intent to
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: hurt this person? There's no interaction. You're talking about passion murder,
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: where you see your wife cheating with somebody else, or
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: you see something that disturbs you and throws.
• 29:15
  Speaker 5: You into a rage.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: It's his wife cheating.
• 29:19
  Speaker 5: That's my point.
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: There's nothing that triggered this premeditation you talk about forming
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: you know the intent because you see something.
• 29:28
  Speaker 5: There was nothing that happened to make him form the intent.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: It's just you've never had a criminal that did the
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: day just because they felt like it. They had an
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: itch and they scratched it, and.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: We always say why, why, why? Why? Ask why. State
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: doesn't have to prove motive. There doesn't have to be why.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: All I have to know is who did it? Did
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: they have intent? And am I in the right jurisdiction?
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: That's what I need to know, right.
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: And the defense will come up with the why. The
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: why is because he's mentally insane. Stop heartstock the explanation
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: that's going to get him any possibility of.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: A defense, and very quickly if that's possible.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: Randy Kessler, you're used to making long and eloquent arguments
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: to juries and appellate judges. But we just agreed that
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: intent can be formed in literally the blink of an eye.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: But you were saying he's clearly mainly insane. This is
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: a litmus test, a yes no.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Isn't it true that the rule of insanity, the insanity test,
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: is the old McNaughton rule, brought over to the.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: US from Great Britain, And it's one simple question. Did
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: the suspect know right from wrong at the time of
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: the incident. I don't care what he says he heard
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: voices last week or tomorrow.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: Did he know what he did at the time was wrong?
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: Isn't that the old McNaughton test.
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: That's the McNaughton test, and I think it's it's very
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: applicable here because when at the time he did that, clearly,
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: it's going to be easy to argue he did not
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: know that what he was doing was wrong. He was
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: acting under some impulse, some mental diagnosis, some alternate personality,
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: something made him do that.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: Clearly personality did you just pull that out of here?
• 31:23
  Speaker 6: Out of my way?
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: What schools?
• 31:27
  Speaker 5: The bottom line is he did this, and did he
• 31:29
  Speaker 5: know right from wrong at the moment he did it.
• 31:31
  Speaker 5: And you can almost argue that anybody doing something like
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: that must not have known what they were doing. Why
• 31:36
  Speaker 5: else would they do it? There's no other reason. It's
• 31:38
  Speaker 5: not somebody he knew. It's not somebody.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Why, Why does it matter?
• 31:45
  Speaker 5: That's what you have.
• 31:46
  Speaker 14: Moments after allegedly stabbing Irena Brown captured on video, nonchalanty
• 31:51
  Speaker 14: walking the platform of the train station, Police with weapons
• 31:55
  Speaker 14: drawn and up, surround the suspected killer, taking him to
• 31:58
  Speaker 14: the ground and taking him into custody. On the train,
• 32:01
  Speaker 14: Brown was described as wearing a hoodie. Now he's wearing
• 32:04
  Speaker 14: a black T shirt with the bloody hoodie wrapped around
• 32:07
  Speaker 14: his hands.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: And here he comes just walking along cavalierly, calmly, don't
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: look at me. Nothing to see. Oops. I guess they
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: got my description. Joining me and all Star pound to
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: makes sense of what we know right now?
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: Straight out to Ron Bateman, former homicide detective, former undercover
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: narc former sheriff, and author of a crime fiction series,
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: Silent Blue Tears, his new book coming out next week.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: Question to you, Ron Bateman, when you know when you
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: see the police closing in, very often the Fennants.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: Do not run.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: They try to blend in, like Tyler Robinson did after
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: he allegedly shot Charlie Kirk. He came down off the
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: top of that ruth and then he didn't run. He
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: walked with Grandpa's long gun.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: And then hit it. See what I mean. That's just
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: an example I'm giving you that everyone is familiar with.
• 33:14
  Speaker 15: Yeah, and it really goes to speak to his intent.
• 33:17
  Speaker 15: We talked about intent being formed in a matter of minutes,
• 33:20
  Speaker 15: and you'll see him if you play the video back,
• 33:23
  Speaker 15: you'll see him take a knife and it's a folding
• 33:25
  Speaker 15: blade that he actually folds the blade out himself. He
• 33:28
  Speaker 15: had to think about that, and then I believe when
• 33:31
  Speaker 15: he was stabbing the victim. I believe it's not a
• 33:34
  Speaker 15: lock blade. It actually closed and cut his finger, and
• 33:37
  Speaker 15: that's why all the blood is dripping out on the
• 33:39
  Speaker 15: floor of the train. But then the further show is intent.
• 33:43
  Speaker 15: He has the wherewithal. Remember we're talking about a guy
• 33:47
  Speaker 15: who's now schizophrenic and all that stuff, which is bull crap.
• 33:51
  Speaker 15: He has the wherewithal to try to conceal his identity.
• 33:54
  Speaker 15: He takes off the hoodie, he wraps his hand in
• 33:57
  Speaker 15: the hoodie. He tries to conceal his identity. He tries
• 33:59
  Speaker 15: to and walk among the patrons. Let's not even talk
• 34:03
  Speaker 15: about all the people on the train that didn't do
• 34:05
  Speaker 15: a thing.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: That's another topic, not a dam n thing, not a thing.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: In fact, some of them, in addition not doing anything
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: to help Arena, they actually started videoing her as she's dying.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm glad you brought up what you did, Ron Bateman,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: about the folding knife.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Unlike the fixed blade knife used by Brian Koberger to
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: butcher for innocent Idaho students, this is a folding blade
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: used in the murder of Arena to Randy Kessler.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: Uh oh, where's Kessler? Don't see him? Let's see him Kesler, go.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Ahead and get you kleenex, because many people would argue
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: one two seconds don't matter what they do under the law.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: The time it takes, and you can see it on
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: video him fidgeting around, digging in his pockets to get
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: the kne life. Then he unfolds the knife and positions it.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: That buys me about five more seconds to form intent.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: Way when Kessler, yeah, well.
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: I don't know what you're going to do, and I
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: don't know what you want me to do with that.
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: He opened the knife and he did something with it.
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: But did he know what he was doing? Did he
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: know that he was actually did he think it was him?
• 35:19
  Speaker 5: His argument is going to be some other personality to go.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: I think it was him.
• 35:22
  Speaker 5: Wait what, Yes, listen to the videos, Listen to the argument.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: I think it was due.
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: He did not think it was himself. He thought of
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: somebody else in his body, somebody else making him do this.
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: He was obviously mentally disturbed. He didn't form the content.
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: Something in his brain went wrong and made him do that.
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: That's the mental insanity defense that he's going to have
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: to use. I don't know what else he has.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: In the last hours, Newly obtained nine to one one
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: audio and video.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: Now, this is video from the public transport train.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: There's plenty of video circulating out there because many of
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: the train riders, the patrons, instead of trying to help Arena, started.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: Videoing her as she died.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: Let's see thirty eight showing Arena getting onto the train
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: and taking her seat, minding her own business. She worked
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: two jobs, new to the US, seeking a better life,
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: according to her family, and God bless her soul.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Look who is sitting behind her, and he's staring at
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: her right now.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: Like a wolf looking at a sheep. She gets on,
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: looks around, and takes a seat fortuitously in front of
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: the defendant. Let's move to thirty nine. I want you
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: to see the defendant moving in his seat. This is
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: what we call time deform intent, fidgeting with the knife,
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: and we're stopping it right there. We don't need to
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: see the next frame. I'll see it again time right
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: there under the law to form intent. She comes and
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: sits down. He's staring at her, stares at her like
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: a wolf, and then pulls his knife, looks at it,
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: unfolds it, and stands up to murder her. Let's move
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: to forty. This video showing a close up of the
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: defendant's hands. That's Arena's hat. Look if that's not intent,
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: that is intent.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: What do you have to say to that? Keep on
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: the video, Kessler, look at that. I'm totally gonna slow
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: mow that for the jury.
• 37:44
  Speaker 5: So I've maintained all along this is a case about sentencing. Right.
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: You can tell me all day long that it's not
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: just about sensing. You're going to get a conviction, but
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: what made him do that? You say, the why doesn't matter.
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: Jury's always want to know why. And you know what,
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: if there's a mental insanity of defense, the why is
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: going to matter. And that's going to be the only
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: thing he has if he goes to trial to argue
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: is that he was out of his mind, he did
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: not know what he was doing, he was being controlled, possessed,
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: whatever it is. Because you're right. Otherwise you've got the intention,
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: the you've got the conviction. If he doesn't use him an.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Sore, if he was quote possessed all the other fourteen times,
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: maybe that he committed a crime, some of them violent.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: This is not age progression, people. This is just a
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: few of his many arrests. Can I see Kessler, because
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: I don't want him to hide behind some pictures you're
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: putting up Kessler. Did you actually just say maybe he
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: was possessed. You're going to bring demonic spirits in as
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: a defense.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: I can't wait. Is that what you just said? I
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: heard it. I can play it back.
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: You said he using a laborerson term. It's you know,
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: you want to use psychological term schizophrenic. Somebody he thought
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: that he was possessed. He thought that somebody else was
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: in his body, some sort of government device was in
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: his body. He thought something else was going He is
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: not owning this act. You do not say I don't
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: know why I did this. He was saying, look, you know,
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: I don't know what happened, but they need to scan me,
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: they need to investigate me. They need to figure this out.
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: Something was going on in his brain, and we don't
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: understand brains yet far enough to understand why this happened.
• 39:15
  Speaker 5: But clearly he did not say I did it and
• 39:17
  Speaker 5: I'm sorry, or I can't figure out why I did it.
• 39:19
  Speaker 5: He doesn't seem to have any recollection, so it's a
• 39:21
  Speaker 5: mental health defense.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: It's clearly recollection.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: I can tell you this is the death nil for
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: the defense When a JD starts talking.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: Like an MD. I just heard you trying to describe
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: the human brain. Good luck with that.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: I know my limitations. I am not Did you hear
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: me talking to Coin? I know that I don't know,
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: but I love you theorizing on his brain function. I
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: want to go to a special guest joining us any Con.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: He is director of Victim Services and Advocacy Crime Stoppers
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: out of Houston. Longtime friend and colleague who for to
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: introduce me to murderabilia people making money off murder?
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: Andy Con?
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: How many times have you heard a defense attorney much
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: like Randy Kessler joining us tonight state he didn't know
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: what he was doing? Well, you know what, he knew
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: what train stopped to get off, didn't he He needed
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: to take off that bloody shirt and wrap it around
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: his hand, not just the hurt hand that he sliced himself,
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: but to change clothes. He got off that train at
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: the very next stop and tried to walk away.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Hit it.
• 40:35
  Speaker 16: Andy, You know the video speaks volumes. I mean, there's
• 40:39
  Speaker 16: no way of answer. But he knew exactly what he
• 40:41
  Speaker 16: was doing. He tried to cover up, but the real
• 40:44
  Speaker 16: story to.
• 40:45
  Speaker 7: Me is you had a young lady who fled war torn,
• 40:49
  Speaker 7: war torn Ukraine only to end up being murdered in
• 40:53
  Speaker 7: the United States. Now we look at what happened with
• 40:58
  Speaker 7: the defendant. This defendants got a rap sheet yalong fourteen
• 41:02
  Speaker 7: arrest and in and out of jail, in and out
• 41:04
  Speaker 7: of prisons, in and out of mental hospitals, and so forth.
• 41:08
  Speaker 7: This is a total cataclysmic criminal justice system failure.
• 41:15
  Speaker 16: This is a tragedy, yes, but it was so utterly preventable.
• 41:19
  Speaker 16: And my position again.
• 41:21
  Speaker 7: Is we continue to allow repeat offenders right back into
• 41:26
  Speaker 7: our community to do what they do best, and that's
• 41:29
  Speaker 7: commit crimes. This is not just a North Carolina it's
• 41:33
  Speaker 7: a national issue. In Houston, we've documented over two hundred
• 41:38
  Speaker 7: plus people that have been murdered by defendants released on
• 41:42
  Speaker 7: what's called a personal recognance bond, which is what this
• 41:45
  Speaker 7: defendant was recently released on.
• 41:49
  Speaker 16: That is about as disturbing as it gets. And I'm
• 41:53
  Speaker 16: hoping that this will ultimately open.
• 41:55
  Speaker 7: Up everybody's eyes, not just in North Carolina, but all
• 41:59
  Speaker 7: over the country that the criminal justice reform movement has
• 42:03
  Speaker 7: led to more victimization, more murders.
• 42:06
  Speaker 16: Than any other natural disaster in this country's history.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Gray.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Why are people angry about a mural of slain Ukrainian?
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: A hardworking, beautiful young girl slain on a public rail system,
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: broad daylight?
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: This is what happened.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: Susan Hendrix joining US investigator journalists. I want to follow
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: up on what Andy Khan just said.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: This guy just got out of jail again, Why who
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: let him out of jail?
• 42:52
  Speaker 11: Exactly?
• 42:52
  Speaker 13: And it was mentioned of reform laws, they're not working fourteen.
• 42:57
  Speaker 13: When you put up those mug shots, Nancy, and that's
• 43:00
  Speaker 13: not all of them, you think, how could this guy
• 43:02
  Speaker 13: have gotten out?
• 43:04
  Speaker 11: What was he doing there in the first place? The
• 43:06
  Speaker 11: governor signing a law in her name, Arena's law. But
• 43:10
  Speaker 11: he even says, look, this isn't enough.
• 43:12
  Speaker 13: It's a step in the right direction, but it's clearly
• 43:14
  Speaker 13: not enough, meaning it will take away some of the
• 43:16
  Speaker 13: power from the judges to make that decision in letting
• 43:20
  Speaker 13: someone who has priors out of prison.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: Guys, we know who the judge was. She is about
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: as hard on crime as a limp noodle. Her name
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: is Judge Teresa Stokes. Let's listen.
• 43:39
  Speaker 14: In September twenty twenty two. Brown arrested on assault on
• 43:42
  Speaker 14: a female an injury to property. April twenty twenty four.
• 43:45
  Speaker 14: Brown arrested for misusing nine one one May twenty twenty four,
• 43:49
  Speaker 14: misusing nine one one January twenty twenty five, misusing nine
• 43:52
  Speaker 14: one one January twenty twenty five. Judge Theresa Stokes release
• 43:57
  Speaker 14: Brown the same day he was arrested on a written
• 43:59
  Speaker 14: promise to appear. Brown did not present himself for evaluation
• 44:03
  Speaker 14: three weeks later. He is alleged to have killed Irena.
• 44:06
  Speaker 14: If that order was followed, he would have been evaluated
• 44:09
  Speaker 14: weeks before the stabbing. The public defender in his murdered
• 44:12
  Speaker 14: charge filed a motion questioning Brown's mental capacity, and Wiggins
• 44:15
  Speaker 14: again ordered d be evaluated. Police have not identified any
• 44:19
  Speaker 14: motive or lengthy attack to mental illness in the last hours.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: Newly released nine to one one audio and video. Let's
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: take a look.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: This video is showing the defendant calmly waiting to exit
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: the train.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: He knows exactly what he's doing, making way for people.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: And look at everybody walking around the blood.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah they didn't help her, but they don't want to
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: get their tennis shoes bloody. And there he goes he
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: knows exactly what's going on around him. He knows when
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: the train door opens that this is his exit, and
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: he's leaving. Aranda, by the way, is bleeding out dead
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: right now. Two Randy Kessler joining us. This is not
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: only a state case, but a federal case as well.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: Explain why a special fleet of lawyers have been appointed
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: that are death qualified?
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: What does that mean?
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: Because you want to make it appeal proof, right, lawyers
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: that are qualified to take on death penalty cases. Then
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: he can't after the fact say well, I had ineffective
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: assistance of counsel. My lawyers didn't understand how to handle
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: a death penalty case. They're protecting the verdict and the conviction, straightforward,
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: easy as that.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: The case will get reversed if there is a conviction,
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: if there is a death penalty sentence, if the lawyers
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: are not death qualified. In other words, you have to
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: sit on x number of death penalty cases either first
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: chair or second chair. So you know what you're doing
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: has got to be a fair fight, now, isn't a
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: true Susan Hendrix that Hey, the suspect has been sent
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: for evaluation, mental evaluation to see if he is competent
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: to stand trial.
• 46:15
  Speaker 11: Yes, absolutely, he is and will be evaluated.
• 46:19
  Speaker 13: I was listening to a prison phone call between him
• 46:22
  Speaker 13: and his sister, and he doesn't make any sense.
• 46:26
  Speaker 11: I don't know if that's because he is insane or
• 46:28
  Speaker 11: he's acting like he does have a problem. But I
• 46:32
  Speaker 11: think they will, of course be brought into court and he.
• 46:35
  Speaker 13: Will be evaluated. And I think that that's the way
• 46:38
  Speaker 13: the defense will go. But how can you erase these
• 46:41
  Speaker 13: fourteen mugshots in all and the video there is just,
• 46:45
  Speaker 13: like you said, Nancy planning this out, opening the knife
• 46:48
  Speaker 13: and doing it. He said to his sister in the
• 46:51
  Speaker 13: jailhouse call that he felt that they wanted him.
• 46:54
  Speaker 5: To do it.
• 46:54
  Speaker 11: He didn't do it, he was told to do it.
• 46:56
  Speaker 11: We'll see if that works.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: I doubt it, you know, Kessler, there's a big difference
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: in evaluating someone for incompetency and insanity. Explain and a nutshell,
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: what is incompetency?
• 47:13
  Speaker 5: Well, competency you have to understand the proceedings.
• 47:15
  Speaker 6: It's not fair.
• 47:16
  Speaker 4: You can't help the lawyer defend you if you're incompetent
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: to stand trial if you don't understand the proceedings. To
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: get off the hook for murder, you have to have
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: been insane at the time that it happened that the
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: thing happened. In Competency is more a question of ability
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: to stand trial. Do you understand the proceedings? You need
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: to be able to help in your own defense, and
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: if you're not able to help in your own defense,
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: then you don't have a trial until you are able
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: to assist in your own defense.
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: Nutshell, I kel slur.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: Would you agree that competency is being able to assist
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: your lawyers in your defense at your trial? Competent you
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: are competent to assist your defense attorneys?
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, okay?
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: And insanity is whether you knew right from wrong at
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: the time of the incident. The time of arena is killing.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: They're two very different.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: Things, right.
• 48:06
  Speaker 5: Don't like to agree with you, but yes, So first.
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: The lawyer is going to try to get enrled incompetent.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: Why delay, delay, delay, That's the first and the last
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: rule in the defense playbook.
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: Why people forget about it.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: Their memories fade, Witnesses actually die, important witnesses actually die
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: or move, you can't find them, and the inflammation surrounding
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: the murder of an innocent young woman can die d
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: help people forget about it.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: That's why the defense wants a delay. Would you at
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: least agree with.
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: That, Yes, And it's probably easier to find incompetent at
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: the time of trial than insanity at the time.
• 48:48
  Speaker 5: How do you get inside of.
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: His mind at that exact moment, whereas right now they
• 48:52
  Speaker 4: can interview him, Now, we can have a psychologists test him. Now,
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: you know, it's easier for just to say I'm going
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: to put off the trial than do say, oh, we're
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: going to let them off hook for murder because of insanity.
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: So it's an easier thing to argue for the defense council,
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: and you get a second bite at the apple. If
• 49:06
  Speaker 4: you lose that argument, you still can argue insanity at
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: the time of the murder.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: Right So if at some point, if he is rehabbed
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: and is determined he is competent to stand trial, then
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: when he goes on trial, the defense will be insanity.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: And there are a host of variations.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: There's guilty but mentally ill, there's not guilty by reason
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: of insanity, there's guilty but insane.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: Just a whole variation of what a jury can come
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: back on. Just throw me a few choices.
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: Kessler I mean, you've named them. It really doesn't matter
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: what you call him, and it's state by state. Each
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: state calls them different things. But you're giving the jury options.
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: If there are people on the jury that say there's
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: something wrong with him, I can't find that he is
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: a normal person that just intentionally went after this person.
• 49:56
  Speaker 14: And did it.
• 49:57
  Speaker 5: I want to give him some minor little break because
• 50:00
  Speaker 5: he's got mental issues.
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: They all to do use one of those other excuses
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: to convict and say he had mental issues. Mental you know,
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: but you're right you named three or four of them.
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: They're called a whole bunch of different things depending on
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: which state you're in. But there are other options besides
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: murder one.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: What about Andy Kahn?
• 50:16
  Speaker 16: You know, as much as you want to blame the offender,
• 50:18
  Speaker 16: and obviously he deserves a lot of blame, what happened
• 50:22
  Speaker 16: to this young lady, I blame our criminal justice system
• 50:24
  Speaker 16: even more. They kept knowingly allowing.
• 50:28
  Speaker 7: Him to re enter society time and time again, only
• 50:33
  Speaker 7: to see him reoffend time and time again. And how
• 50:37
  Speaker 7: on the heck do you justify giving someone are you
• 50:41
  Speaker 7: no bond? A cash no cash bond and.
• 50:44
  Speaker 16: Say here, you know, appear in court.
• 50:47
  Speaker 7: That's insane to actually allow someone with his rap sheet
• 50:52
  Speaker 7: just to walk out of court on the promise that
• 50:55
  Speaker 7: you'll reappear again. This is what's driving our system and
• 51:00
  Speaker 7: why the public has just lost faith because we keep
• 51:04
  Speaker 7: seeing offenders like him that are recycled all over the time,
• 51:09
  Speaker 7: and they end up killing people. This was a tragedy,
• 51:12
  Speaker 7: but it was so utterly preventable and it's a total
• 51:17
  Speaker 7: systematic failure.
• 51:18
  Speaker 16: And I know you'll agree with me on this, Nancy,
• 51:21
  Speaker 16: but I get sick.
• 51:22
  Speaker 7: And tired of naming laws after dead people. And now
• 51:26
  Speaker 7: we have a new law named after Arena that hopefully
• 51:30
  Speaker 7: others won't end up with the same fate as she.
• 51:33
  Speaker 16: Has now become.
• 51:34
  Speaker 17: Despite all of this past documented criminal history, when Brown
• 51:38
  Speaker 17: was arrested yet again in January of this past year,
• 51:41
  Speaker 17: a Democrat judge who will I will add was a supporter,
• 51:45
  Speaker 17: a strong supporter of former Vice President Kamala Harris, released
• 51:49
  Speaker 17: this insane criminal once again without requiring him to pay
• 51:53
  Speaker 17: any bail. He simply had to sign a written promise
• 51:57
  Speaker 17: to return for his court hearing.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: Think about how crazy.
• 52:00
  Speaker 17: It is to ask a career criminal, someone who by
• 52:04
  Speaker 17: definition repeatedly breaks the law to just sign a written
• 52:08
  Speaker 17: promise and come back again another day. This is madness.
• 52:11
  Speaker 17: This monster should have been locked up and Arena should
• 52:14
  Speaker 17: still be alive.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: From Fox straight Out to Karen's Stark forensics psychologist renowned
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: TV radio trauma expert Karen way In, I.
• 52:25
  Speaker 10: Have to tell you, Nancy, Yes, this guy has been diagnosed,
• 52:29
  Speaker 10: I've heard with schizophrenia.
• 52:31
  Speaker 9: But I see intent. He knew to have that knife.
• 52:36
  Speaker 10: He fled after he committed that crime, and when her
• 52:40
  Speaker 10: sister said to him, why did you do that?
• 52:44
  Speaker 9: Why did you do that to this citizen person?
• 52:47
  Speaker 10: And he said she was reading my mind, which tells
• 52:51
  Speaker 10: me that he has a rationalization that he actually, after
• 52:56
  Speaker 10: the fact, was trying to explain what he did, which
• 52:59
  Speaker 10: means that he knows the difference.
• 53:01
  Speaker 9: He understands he did something, and he wants to come
• 53:05
  Speaker 9: up with some kind of an explanation. So I see intent.
• 53:10
  Speaker 9: I see somebody who knew exactly what he was doing.
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: Ron Bateman joining me, former homicide detective, former undercover narc
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: and author of a series Silent Blue Tears. You can
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: find it at Ronbatemanbooks dot com. Ron is The investigators here,
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: much like yourself, have their work.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: Cut out for them. They don't have to prove just
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: what happened. They've got the right guy. Now the state,
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: including investigators, are going to have to prove he knew
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: what he was doing and that it was wrong. Ron,
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: how do you go about doing that?
• 53:49
  Speaker 15: Well, you know, you got to ask the question which
• 53:51
  Speaker 15: is really obvious. If you didn't know what he was
• 53:54
  Speaker 15: doing was wrong, then why did he leave his seat?
• 53:57
  Speaker 15: If he was completely schizophrenic and didn't know what was
• 54:00
  Speaker 15: going on, what he did was right, he would have
• 54:02
  Speaker 15: stayed put. But we know we've already talked about it.
• 54:05
  Speaker 15: He did all those things. He tried to conceal his
• 54:06
  Speaker 15: identity and tried to burn into the crowd and blah
• 54:09
  Speaker 15: blah blah, try to cover his hand up and all that.
• 54:11
  Speaker 15: But I got to make one point that the community
• 54:14
  Speaker 15: is crying about that. Maybe you don't hear, Nancy, but
• 54:16
  Speaker 15: I do. What the hell is wrong with the media
• 54:20
  Speaker 15: by Keith repeatedly showing these this murder over and over again.
• 54:24
  Speaker 15: Thank god your staff didn't do it today. We saw
• 54:27
  Speaker 15: Charlie Kirk murdered a thousand times. We've seen this poor
• 54:31
  Speaker 15: girl staff a thousand times. Are we so desensitized? That
• 54:35
  Speaker 15: we have totally thrown away the victims dignity and respect.
• 54:40
  Speaker 15: That her parents probably most likely saw this and didn't
• 54:45
  Speaker 15: learn about it in private like they should have. This
• 54:47
  Speaker 15: is really despicable that the media released this video. Now
• 54:51
  Speaker 15: you can release stills of the suspects so we can
• 54:54
  Speaker 15: find them good, no problem. But the Charlotte Transit Department,
• 54:58
  Speaker 15: you know, I don't know if it was a PIA
• 54:59
  Speaker 15: that went out Public Information Act request, but they've released
• 55:02
  Speaker 15: it and they didn't give it any thought, and it
• 55:04
  Speaker 15: was just for a god darn sound bite. And that's
• 55:06
  Speaker 15: bull crap. That is so desensitized. Desensitivity is just altho charts.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: Andy con He's right.
• 55:15
  Speaker 7: We are caring more about defendants rights than we are
• 55:20
  Speaker 7: about victims' rights, and we repeatedly see this with crime
• 55:24
  Speaker 7: scene photos being sold online, videos being made of victims
• 55:29
  Speaker 7: that are murdered. And she deserves better. But again I'm
• 55:33
  Speaker 7: going to close with this. The defendant fair share of
• 55:38
  Speaker 7: the blame. But this is a total systematic failure. It
• 55:43
  Speaker 7: never should have happened. You cannot continue to continue to
• 55:47
  Speaker 7: recycle offenders over and over again and expect a better outcome.
• 55:54
  Speaker 7: She paid the ultimate price, the only question is how
• 55:58
  Speaker 7: many more are going to pay the price under the
• 56:00
  Speaker 7: guise of criminal justice reform that has taking its toll
• 56:04
  Speaker 7: on all our citizens throughout the country.
• 56:07
  Speaker 16: Enough is enough?
• 56:08
  Speaker 5: This has to end.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: Hey Nancy, Yeah, jump Han please, yeah.
• 56:12
  Speaker 15: But I want to say, you know, we're so we
• 56:15
  Speaker 15: were so hell bent on showing this video over and
• 56:18
  Speaker 15: over again. Are we going to show a firing squad, which,
• 56:20
  Speaker 15: by the way, I could clear my schedule for that day.
• 56:22
  Speaker 15: Are we going to show the firing squad killing this guy? No,
• 56:26
  Speaker 15: that's where not because we just care about this little
• 56:29
  Speaker 15: cool SoundBite to get some attention, which is horrible, horrible
• 56:34
  Speaker 15: for the victims.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: And I assume you're referring to the moment that Arena
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: was actually stabbed, doctor Coin. Question to you, many people
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: want to believe that Arena's death was instantaneous, that she
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: felt nothing, that one moment she's looking at her phone.
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: In the next moment, she's looking at angels. That's not
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: what happened, Doctor Coin.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: She suffered.
• 56:58
  Speaker 7: No.
• 56:58
  Speaker 8: I mean, you can argue that maybe she went unconscious,
• 57:02
  Speaker 8: you know, within a minute or just less, but she
• 57:05
  Speaker 8: certainly would have felt that stab wound and you could
• 57:08
  Speaker 8: see when she looked at her attacker. She certainly would
• 57:11
  Speaker 8: have had that sudden rush of fear and panic before
• 57:15
  Speaker 8: she passed out.
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: A beautiful young girl, Arena Zaritska, comes to America for
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: a better life, leaving war torn Ukraine and ends up
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: getting stabbed dead by a convicted felon on a light
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: rail in Charlotte, North Carolina.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: Why why was he free? Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend.