Latest / Lucid Interval Podcast / The Science of Harry Potter, Santo Daime, and Psychedelic Spirituality - Larissa Carneiro, PhD

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The Science of Harry Potter, Santo Daime, and Psychedelic Spirituality - Larissa Carneiro, PhD · Lucid Interval Podcast

• Andrew Heacock: Larissa, thanks for joining me. Larissa Carneiro: thank you. Thank you for having me. It's an honor. I love to talk and you you have sometimes to stop me because when I get excited I am like two hundred twenty votes, so. Andrew Heacock: I know, me too. We were just doing the pre interview and I was like, I wish we had started just recording from the beginning, but some people are a little camera shy. I can tell that you're not one of those people. So why don't you just start by telling us what do you do? Larissa Carneiro: So my name is Larissa Carneiro. I'm from Brazil. I teach in the Department of Religious Studies at Duke University. I have a crazy trajectory. I have the honor, I think I don't know, I think I lived, I I I already lived like five lives into one life, you know, which is very good. But in academic work, my work always has been with the relationship between religion and science. So for a long time I worked with 60, 16th century, 15th century, early modernity. And when you're talking about religion and science, you're talking about religion, magic, and science. So basic, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it is religion and science. I I I think now is more religion and science, but magic is always there. I like magic. So then I I I worked for a long time with early modernity, medicine, science, which is sheer magic. and now I decided then for a while I work with that, and then I you know the issue of psychoactive substances started to pop up so much in my work. You know, it is way more prominent than people like. To think is some kind of history that has been raised in religions. You know, like with the rise of monotheist religions, this kind of indigenous religions. And when I I talk about indigenous religions, let's be open-minded. And I'm not talking just about like, you know, indigenous peoples in the America, but also European indigenous religions. And with the rise of these monotheistic religions. This kind of story kind of was suppressed. Especially because like the production of knowledge, i it makes sense that this knowledge was suppressed. so then I say, you know what? It is calling me. It's weird, but I I think that everybody that starts to work with psychotox substance has some kind of story that is magical as well, a moment. In some sense, it's like that moment of evangelical people that when they meet Jesus, you know, like the reborn people. So then I decided, you know what? I always wanted to conduct research in my country, which I didn't. Because my research was so focused on European context. And then I started to guide to go to Brazil and visit like churches that use psychoactive substances, especially what is generally called as ayahuasca. And then from them I changed completely periods, you know, from like early modern, European and modern period to like. Currently, context of the scientific and religious landscape, which they are now so intermingled, which is fascinated me. Andrew Heacock: That sounds so cool. And I'm really glad that you agreed to come on and talk with me. I've been telling people for a couple months that I was like, I be about you coming on, because you've been in Brazil recently, so we had to wait. And I've been telling people like this is how the conversation goes. I'm like, look, I've got this religious study scholar from Duke. She studies Santo Daime, which is like this amazing church down in Brazil, and it's like nominally Christian, I think, but there's African folk religion and there's Sunteria, and they also work with ayahuasca, and she studies syncretism, which is like this blending. And they just kind of look at and they nod, and I'm just like, Larissa Carneiro: Yeah. Andrew Heacock: And she teaches a class in the science of Harry Potter. And they're like, what? What? And I'm just like, Larissa Carneiro: What's it? Andrew Heacock: so I'm like, I don't know. Do you think we should just give the people what they want to start with? And can we talk about how the magic in Harry Potter f works into your scholarship? Cause that is a fascinating blend of of approaches. And I'm actually curious, how do you, I mean, as a religious study scholar, how do you define magic? Larissa Carneiro: Yeah, yeah, magic is what other religions do and not yours. Andrew Heacock: Right. It's what those people are doing. Got it. Got it. Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: Yeah, those people might know. You know, like all the robes stuff, Andrew Heacock: Right. Larissa Carneiro: all like the transforming, like wine and blood, you know, like Andrew Heacock: Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: all this kind of speaking to God and hearing Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: the gods in this magical book that is actually no, that's not magic. You know, Andrew Heacock: Right. Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: magic is what the weird people do, the other people. so Harry Potter. I owed so much to Harry Potter. It is so amazing because I moved to the United States. My my career, academic career, is not like the regular one. You know, I am, I don't know, maybe a rogue person, but I moved to the United States because I fell in love with an American. So I abandoned everything in Brazil and came to the United States and I said, my god, and now what? What am I gonna do? so I was always I love fantasy. I love magic. I love fantasy books, you know. I I love it. That that's something that I never grew out of this. And so Harry Potter series was actually one of the first books that I no, Harry Potter series was actually the first not academic book that I read completed in English. And I always thought about, my god, I'm I'm learning words that I will never use. What I'm gonna do is wand, you know, in my academic Andrew Heacock: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: life. Well, I use one a lot in my academic life. So when I moved to the United States, I was actually talking to a friend from that back then he he taught at University of Edinburgh. And I was I knew so much Harry Potter. I read the book so many times. And he said, you know what? Why don't you, you know, create a course in Harry Potter religion? I said, Are you kidding me? That's not gonna fly. So I did it. I created. It was when I I entered Duke, like back the back door. And I offered this class. I I have this class. What about it? And they allowed me to teach one class. And it was such a successful class. You know, and it was like the Andrew Heacock: I bet. Yeah, n I mean there's no doubt. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: it was like, I don't know, you are probably millennial generation, and it was Andrew Heacock: Mm, yep. Larissa Carneiro: like the kids who have grew up like reading and watching Harry Potter. And I said, Well, this class is gonna die out. No, no. And I try sometimes, you know, like to be like made politically correct, to bring like the issues of like, you know, J.K. Rowling being canceled by both like evangelicals who thought that that Harry Potter was satanic, and then now, my god, she's anti-transgender people. That woman was like cancelled for both sides of the aisle. But students are not interested in that. They like the magic. So the first day of class, I say one thing. I'm gonna prove you. And that's my mission. That's maybe the only objective of this class. Although the class, of course, has many objectives. there are more there is more magic in our world than in Harry Potter. Because Harry Potter, what we see in Harry Potter is actually early modern science. And our world is full of magic. You know, we still believe in so many different things. We still rely on so many rituals to go through life. We know we believe, for example, that you know, I don't know. you go to a ceremony and you change status from single to married, you know, from the all this enchantment in modern life. And it's true, what we see in Harry Potter is Mostly. She didn't create anything. Well, she did an amazing job, but she did what I think that's her amazing job is that she sat in libraries and research. Because all her magical creatures are actually creatures that were like in medieval bestiaries. Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: You know, everything that he talked she talks about is related to the lore of the time. You know, potions, alchemy. Astrology, astronomy, what actually caused lots of anxiety in evangelical people because they thought that Harry Potter was too connected to the real world, and so it's such a is a magic that you can learn. That's what they they they don't have anxieties toward Lord of the Rings, but they have anxiety of toward Harry Potter is because for them Harry Potter is a magic that you can learn. Of course you cannot learn to transform it they're right. You know, it is very close to our world. You cannot learn, of course, to turn like a to turn a cop into like a mouse, but the magic in Harry Potter, the alchemy, this is actually proto science. That is our life. Hogwarts, for example, is founded and the same. Period of the largest witch hunt in Scotland and England. So even that, Hogwarts, like Hogwarts, when it was like hidden, create some kind of spell to hide Hogwarts for the rest of the world. And because like, you know, it was a moment that was complicated to be a witch. So everything Andrew Heacock: More so than usual. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: that she does, it is not by chance. And like unicorns, vampires, werewolves, these beings, these magical beings, they existed. They existed. Like angels exist for some people, like God exists for some people, like some people believe in the devil, right? They are real for these people. And to in f 16th century, 17th century to not believe in these beings would be The equivalent of being an atheist today. You know, there are people who are atheists, and some people cannot understand that you don't believe in anything. And would be comparable. Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: You know, people believed in these beings and they had a social role. they explain a lot of stuff. so the class actually is divided in units that are the classes that Harry takes. You know, I follow the curriculum of homewards. Andrew Heacock: excellent. You should you should put this online. You would make a lot of money. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: wow, I can start to advertise. I when sometimes I think about like retirement, I said, you know what? I'm gonna teach actually Harry Potter, like for the like Andrew Heacock: Just do that. Larissa Carneiro: the largest public because it is so I it's I love that class. And students love that class too, because it is like the I I I can convince them that we have more magic now that in Harry. That Harry was science. And we science has lots of magical thought too. And if you think about like new this new frontier of psychoactive substance like that, you know, like what people call like the psychedelic renaissance, whatever, is some term that I have some kind of issues with, but I I also use for the sake of clarity, it is there is lots of magical thought about it as well. It's it's magic. Andrew Heacock: Yeah. Yeah. Anything, I guess y you said something that I thought was really salient is these things served a f a purpose. They explained things. You know, Larissa Carneiro: Mm-hmm. Andrew Heacock: these this magic was was for explaining the world. And that is what science is. I guess that's probably the best definition I would probably give for a science is like a recursive way of of trying to describe reality. and I I was thinking about you mentioned like proto-science was Isaac Newton and how much time he spent trying to turn lead into gold. You know, alongside of doing the greatest feats of intellectual Herculean effort ever. He was has Larissa Carneiro: Yeah. Yes. Andrew Heacock: always kept a fire burning in case the the you know, the the the solution came to him in the middle of the night. Larissa Carneiro: Yes, yes, like we we own so much to the alchemist. You know, you Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: go to a lab today, many things, of course, now you have so many digitized, digitalized, digitized equipments and everything. You can't it's so easy to control temperature, right? Like so easy. If you need like Kelvin, that is like the measure they use for higher temperature, it's so easy. You just like did you know you type the temperature that you want. But the alchemists they had to control temperature, and that was the the the the hard work they have to do because they had like to create a concussion, to create a chemical reaction, and they needed a certain temperature. They needed, they knew they needed, and to maintain a constant temperature without any technology but a cauldrum and a fire Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: was very, very hard. By the way, that was called. The women's work. Andrew Heacock: To keep the fire? Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: Yeah, because and and it's a very interesting thing because it was the hard work. You know, the most difficult work. Yes, the tedious work. And Andrew Heacock: Tedious. Yeah. Do you think that has to do with why w witchcraft is usually associated with women? Larissa Carneiro: There's so many reasons that Euchcraft is associated with women. I think I I I think it's because the yeah. Yeah. The domestic role of women. You know, human Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: women, it still is. If you I I I don't know, in in like in Latin America, and I'm now I'm gonna generalize. Latin America. If you go to Latin America, Andrew Heacock: Sure, all of it. That one thing. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: it it's still like herbal medicine, it's very common. You know, like this kind of Healers are still very prominent. my god. the profession of healers is actually protected in Brazil. It is like a cultural heritage. It's a cultural immaterial heritage, a practice. So actually, in some states in Brazil, healers they can get their herbs like for free. The government subsides that because it is recognized as something that you have to keep. It's a tradition, it's a cultural tradition. So we still have so many healers, and healers usually are women. not not and I'm gonna make a differentiation between shamans and healers, because shamans traditionally, if and I'm gonna put like all the quotes that I can in traditionally, because the tradition actually doesn't exist in some sense as people like to think. But like shamanism in indigenous traditions in America, most of them, most of them were just men. Like the phenomenon that you have like lots of female shamans now, it's a very, very contemporary development. But like healers, like the domestic healers, it comes from a tradition that is a mix of all healing traditions, including European. Like with comes with the colonizers, comes with the settlers, comes with the immigrants. it is pretty much a women's job. It and that she's the one who is with the children. She's the one who is taking care of the old people. She's the one who is a midwife who is gonna help like the neighborhood deliver her kid. But then something goes wrong. You know, maybe the child has some kind of deformity. Maybe the child is not normal. And then they have to blame someone. And maybe you have a drought, you know, and maybe you have like it's raining too much, or maybe like the king is sick. You have to blame someone. And so usually we're like poor women who are the sailors. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. And and Andrew Heacock: Mm. Women made just made easy scapegoats. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: and like actually, most most there are lots of interesting studies now. Environmental science, by the way. In my opinion, about witchcraft, they are the most interesting ones that associate small climate changes with witch hunts. So, for example, in Europe, they have what it's called now by also environmental science, it's called Little Ice Age. That is like a 300-year period. In which of course you have an apex and then you have like a down curve. But it's a period between let's say fifteenth century and to early eighteenth century, in which the weather, the climate, what we we have data from Europe. And you have data for the analysis of trees, of analysis of ice, of analysis of like plants and like sedimentation. It we know that in this period in Europe, but probably in other parts of the world as well, there was a huge climate change in which you had a lot of rain. And sometimes like rain when we were not supposed to have rain. So you have lots of like winter were longer. so this happened a lot of famine, lots of crops that died. lots of plagues, livestock that could not survive, and we are thinking about a time that you know people relied on agricultural production because otherwise, in the winter time, they will not have anything to produce. They would have to rely on the grains that they kept during summer. So there is lots of studies associating this period that is the largest period of witch hunt. So One of the most prominent reasons that witches were accused of sentence and sometimes executed was weather magic. if I I had here I could actually show, but I have lots of like manuscript illustrations or lithographs in which like if you pay attention in the drawing language of that time. What the witches are doing is conjuring storms, a Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: hail storm, snow storm, and that was a problem for them because they relied so much on the weather. Actually, I asked this question to students, who are gonna sacrifice now, you know, with our own climate change? Who will be our scapegoat? You know, what we need to sacrifice, you know, because we'll, you know, if if the prophetic, you know, the magical prophetic, the new prophets, like the scientists, the new diviners that you say, my god, like the sea is gonna rise, you know, famine Andrew Heacock: Mm. Larissa Carneiro: is gonna happen, people are gonna migrate, all this kind of apolli apocalyptic scenario. What are we gonna do? You know, we have to do something and you're sacrificing very little. You know what? We are our our reusable bags. Andrew Heacock: Right. Right. Yeah. Can't k I need my iPhone. Yeah. Like Larissa Carneiro: Reusable bags are not doing much, so what we're gonna have to sacrifice? So magic is a still around. We just think they're not magic. They're science now. But people back then also thought they were science. They're not magic. Magic is a modern concept. Andrew Heacock: I I love your definition. It's the it's the fake thing that other people do. You know, that's Larissa Carneiro: Yeah. Andrew Heacock: when I do it, it's science. You know, this works. It's interesting, Larissa Carneiro: Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Heacock: you know, I would have thought a lot of a lot of magic historically, what I still see, you know, with represented media and on YouTube with especially in Latin America and indigenous religious traditions have a lot to do with fertility. but also the weather. That makes perfect sense. And it kind of makes Larissa Carneiro: Yes. Andrew Heacock: me wonder, You know, it just kind of I was remarking on how much things have changed for our species after the invention of agriculture, like the domestication of crops. Do you have any sense? Do we have any really understanding of what religious practices were like before history? Larissa Carneiro: yeah, there it is. It's interesting. actually it's a question that my that's a good question. That is a question that students ask me a lot because some what is good about teaching? Er was about this conversation, my mind is here working and you are actually like creating questions and make me think things that I never thought of before. And because when you read When your profession relies on reading, sometimes you read and you actually don't read. That's horrible to say that. And I'm kind of modest. I'm average. And so sometimes something you just accept as something that you take for granted. And one thing that you have a lot in paleontology, when like the pot paleontology, for example, using like psychoactive substances, right? Usually they are gonna talking about lots of hunt. Hunter and Gatherers Society. and you know, I okay, I know what it is, I accept that, I understand, but you don't kind of elaborate. And every time that I sign one text that I love that is about cave paintings in which you know it is about societies that were like still nomads still relied in you know following the track of animals to hunt students ask me what is different why why why there are lots of differences you know what we we of course like we don't know we don't we don't We don't know about religious systems until it's written. We don't know. You know, no, we don't know. We know we have like, and I'm talking about evidence. I'm talking about material evidence. And in the last, in the latest 30 years, things really got exciting because of technology. We didn't have technology to analyze organic material. And now we do. I don't, but other people do. Andrew Heacock: Someone does, yeah. They do. Larissa Carneiro: Someone does the hard work, the the women's work, you know, like the alchemic work of trying to see what other the ancient societies and the prehistoric societies were doing religiously or ritualistic, if you can call religion, but like in terms of magic, rituals to make life work. To assure that the sun is gonna rise every day. To assure that you're gonna have food. To assure that we're gonna have a good crop. The seasons, the winter, the spring. Think they're not there. Now we know, yeah, this planet spinning around. People didn't know that. You know, there is no assurance that the ra the sun was gonna rise again. So we know things that they did. Used, but we didn't know why, how, what kind of rituals they have. So, for example, just to give an example, in in a cemetery in China, it is we have one of the oldest evidence of using marijuana for a ritual. in a cemetery. By the way, look at this. This is fascinating. It is not a Chinese cemetery, it is a Zoroastrian cemetery. So Andrew Heacock: okay. Larissa Carneiro: we see that this is it this is a long time ago, is like 10,000 years ago. So we are gonna see that people were still in an exchange of practices, and probably the Silk Road. Andrew Heacock: Mm. Larissa Carneiro: Although it was not Silky Road yet, probably they still had some kind of you know exchange. So this is a very old evidence, and they found like using technology for detecting organic material, actually, these brosiers that they have they used to burn in these brussiers, marijuana, and was an engineer marijuana. Because the level of THC was very high. Andrew Heacock: Really? Larissa Carneiro: It was not, yes, it was not something that was found in the wild since it's native from China. So back then, people were already, you know, creating harvesting with the most powerful plants. Okay, we know they use in some context in for the dead, in burial ceremonies, or no, maybe afterwards. You know what? What these things were doing. We also have in another northern cemetery in China people who were buried with the plant of cannabis. On their chest, big big stems of cannabis. Why? You need that in the afterlife? You know what's a matter of protection? What's to get high or not? We don't know. We don't know. So that religion that is that's these religious practices or spiritual practices or magical practices, we don't know much. But we know that when the society becomes more agricultural, then the deities change a little bit. They you start to rely more in fertility rights, because then you have to assure that you have to have rain, that you have to have a a good crop, that the season has to go smoothly, that the cycle of time, the wheel of time has to be Is smooth and perfect. And we know that is not always like that. For example, I was in Brazil right now. People say, it was good. I say, yeah, and no. Because I've seen something in Brazil right now that I've never seen my whole life. I'm 60 years old. Never saw that. I had one day of sun. And this is dry season in Brazil. So I stay in Brazil like three weeks and it was raining non stop non-stop. Not like my god, finally. No. Just raining, raining, raining, when it's El Nino. So you you you cannot assure that you know always have good weather. So we really needed, you know, deities that could assure that. But you also still have like, you know, and then With agricultural societies, it means that people are more stable in one single area. And then we started to have territory issues. So then why not to have also a god of war? Right? Because Andrew Heacock: Right. Larissa Carneiro: you're gonna need it to protect your territory. So of course, culture determines, you know, the kind of data that you have. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, that makes that makes so much sense too. I mean, once we started staying put, who got to control the best land matters. And so patriarchy starts to make sense. Like who who's the father of which child makes a lot of sense if that's how you're gonna pass down control of the land and then of course land gets worth fighting over. Larissa Carneiro: Yeah. Andrew Heacock: yeah, that is interesting. yeah I I was just hearing thinking about you talking about you know discovering these these organic materials and burial sites. You know, I mean that's archaeobotany, Larissa Carneiro: It's really single. Andrew Heacock: right? Like That's basically as as if that were magic. I mean, if you told a scientist a hundred years ago that we could do that, they would probably think you were crazy. Like you were talking about magic. Or if you explain to them what you and I are doing right now, we're looking at this piece of glass Larissa Carneiro: Yes. Andrew Heacock: and talking to it and it's talking back to us. I mean, that is as wild as anything you would see in Harry Potter. I don't think Harry Potter anything that was that ambitious, if I recall. I mean, they have like, right? Like Larissa Carneiro: No my goodness, ambitious Harry Potter, really, really. I tell students, it is so I love Harry Potter, but it's lame. Harry Potter has Christmas. Really? You can't Andrew Heacock: Mm. That's right. That's an interesting point. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: you can you are creating a fantasy world? They are Christians. You know, and this is something Andrew Heacock: Yeah. Or they or there's a pagan holiday at least they observe with the tree. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: that Jake Rowling didn't think about it. It is the cultural aspect of religion. Andrew Heacock: Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: It's when religion is so part of the landscape that you don't notice. You don't even notice. There is a moment that is one of the most beautiful moments in Harry. It is when he is like on on the run with Hermione. Ron abandoned them. You know, for a while, then she show up, of course. But they go to Godric's Hollow for the first time. And Harry doesn't wanna go to take like the polyjuice. He doesn't wanna go to the place that he was born pretending that he was someone else. So they go to the invisible cloak. And and it's a dangerous place for him to be. Everybody, like the Death Eaters are In Voldemort is back, the Death Eaters in power again, they are looking for him, they want to kill him. And so they have this brave act because they think that they were gonna find some answers in Godric's Hollow. And when they arrive, it's a snowy day. And although they have the invisible cloak, you can see like the steps on snow. And they see this beautiful music coming from a chapel, and it's a carol. They are playing singing carols and Hermione says, Harry, I think it's Christmas. It is such a beautiful moment because it is what emphasized and she uses that as a rhetorical device to demonstrate that how lonely they are. You know, they are not with their family, they are not having like a dinner, they are not in church, but it's like if you think about That's Godric's Hollow, one of the only villages that only witches and wizards live there and they are having Christmas. Doesn't make any sense. Andrew Heacock: Yeah. And singing carols. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. that is fascinating. I mean, even me, you know, like I live in the United States and I don't consider myself a Christian at all. But Christmas is still an important holiday for me. cause it represents to me, it's it's has much more to do with what it represents in contemporary times. You know, I I guess a lot Larissa Carneiro: Yes. Andrew Heacock: of it has to do with buying things, which is very American. But I mean, it it it's, you know, it's time to get together with your family and to just, you know, it's Larissa Carneiro: What do you Andrew Heacock: right by the new year and It is interesting though that like this, I'm sure that also drove Christians crazy if they ever notice this, that this pagan text, you know, has has Christmas in it. And you were you were talking earlier about the Silk Road and just like the mixing. And I think that refers to this word that we've mentioned, syncretism. and that tends to I find there are certain people of a certain religious class that are driven crazy by this. what Larissa Carneiro: Mm. Andrew Heacock: can you tell us about what syncretism is and like how does it fit into your scholarship? Larissa Carneiro: Yeah. It's actually it is a word that for a for a while people didn't like to use very much in academia. Academia can be very has some kind of bad stuff, you know, like no we don't use that anymore. yes, yes, Andrew Heacock: Very dogmatic. Larissa Carneiro: like no that that that that concept doesn't fit anymore like in what we know right now. i in some sense it's right and in some sense It's a still use of a very very useful concept. But if you think about it is because I think people started like to to avoid using a lot, although I do use it. And that's why it's good because they're gonna connect it. That's what I said. Tradition. it is no religion is pure. That's why the anxiety towards this no religion is born out. Andrew Heacock: word assumes that there's a right way to do one religion. Yeah, yeah. Larissa Carneiro: Yes. Out of the blue because some cloud opened in the sky and some enlightened person received the message and wrote it down. No, religion doesn't work like that. That's myth. You know, religion usually build up upon other religions and the exchange always happens. so for example, I was talking about like Indigenous traditions. We know now, for example, that it was a very sophisticated network of roads in South America. So indigenous peoples were always exchanging practices. And when you exchange practices, you exchange culture. Talking again about that, there is like a finding among the Nazca people. The Nazca people is southern Peru, very far away from the Amazon Basin. And is that people that amazing people that you find those drawing on the landscape? Andrew Heacock: The NASCA lines, yeah. Larissa Carneiro: Yeah, that's magical. It's beautiful because you have to be like you have to have a drone to see that. And those people didn't have a drone. so the dr th they they mummified their bodies not because they wanted to, actually, it's because their burial practice. It's very dry and they usually build up like they dug. A hole, put like a stone, and place their dad there, like in sometimes in sitting position. And because of the dried condition, these bodies were mummified. And now, because the technology, we can do the DNA analysis of hair, and then actually they found bannisteriopscopy. They found harmane. which is one of the major components of ayahuasca. So what they were using ayahuasca there, that's not that they don't have banistereopscap. Andrew Heacock: What is it that they found there? Larissa Carneiro: They found all kinds of actually psychoactive substances in the hair of these mummified bodies. They found, of Andrew Heacock: I see. Larissa Carneiro: course, coke leaves, they found of c traces of San Pedro. But what was more surprising was the presence of the Banisteriopsca api, that is one of the major ingredients of ayahuasca. So they were taking ayahuasca. Andrew Heacock: They're way away from the Amazon basin, yeah. Larissa Carneiro: Yeah. So it meant that they met someone who was traveling or they traveled and they brought the thing. You know, so syncretism is actually the core of all religions, all practices. We learn with each other, we build our relationship, our systems of beliefs in previous systems of beliefs, and we have this idea That our religion is unique, but actually our religions are built up upon ancient religions as well and ancient practice. And like, well, you told me that you were raised as Catholic, I was raised as Catholic. my goodness, that is so pagan. Sometimes, you know, the whole and Andrew Heacock: Mystery religions and yep. Larissa Carneiro: Catholicism is wonderful to watch because the rituals are so evident. That you can see, you know, like the remaining of older practices that mix in these early forms of Christianity that came up to be like the Roman and then the also the Orthodox Christianity, Catholicism. But what usually what people use for syncretism. It is when like different systems of religions merge into one. Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: So for example, in the church of Santo Daimy, it is it's a very porose form of religion. It of course I cannot say that about every single church, because the church of Santo Daims, the the different churches they have they lean toward. different practices sometimes they are not uniform because you know let's let's see like like the monotheistic religions they are based on revelations right muhammad received like the angel gabriel came to him and said that's you know here that's that Andrew Heacock: You recited it, yeah. Larissa Carneiro: is like the Quran you know Moses received from God like the Ten Commandments And so it is this this bunch of revelations, divine revelations. Well, we are talking about religions that everybody has revelations. So the religion is alive, it's always happening. And since the substance is sacred, is divine, is has an authority, is sacred, what the substance Reveals it's you have to believe that. So the it the religious turns very porose. So for example, if you go to the church of Santo Diamond, Europe, you're gonna have lots of elements of Buddhism and Hinduism, you know, because the counterculture and the kind of all is this really yeah, yeah. Andrew Heacock: Interesting. Right. But from the sixties and yeah. Yeah. Interesting. And that made its way started here and made its way to Europe. That's fascinating. I mean it came from yeah, yeah. Larissa Carneiro: Yes, it's it's a global now. You have Santo Daimy, you have Santo Daim in Japan with Shintoist elements Andrew Heacock: Okay. Interesting. Larissa Carneiro: because the religion, because you receive revelation, and of course, our brain, you know, our mind, the revelations that you receive. It's here. You know, it's the culture that you live in, is the experience that you had. Everything affects what you're seeing and hearing. So of course, you bring your baggage, your luggage, your experience to the experience. So of course they merge with the culture. So in Brazil, of course, it merged with it. Santo Daim is fascinating because I I say that is the only Brazilian religion. Andrew Heacock: Interesting. Larissa Carneiro: Brazilian Brazilian. Because you know it merged all the matrix of Brazilians of religions that went to Brazil. So you have the indigenous religion. Because the can I tell the story of Santa Dimes beautiful? Andrew Heacock: Please, yes, absolutely. Larissa Carneiro: It's beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. So Brazil, it is it every religion is so political, right? You cannot. So Brazil has has the large had the largest population of enslaved people. Brazil would it's this grey horrible zone that sometimes like Brazil would not be Brazil with this huge forced diaspora. We own so much to these people who are forced to go to Brazil. They are the soul of Brazil. They are everything in Brazil. Everything that Brazil has that people say, my god, it's Brazil! It's is is our enslaved people who brought that to us. so Brazil has this in a huge one-third of all the enslaved people went to Brazil. Brazil was not like slavery, it was everywhere because Brazil, the the the process of colonization, Brazil is not like here in the United States that people may hey, let's go to the United States and make the new Jerusalem, let's make a new country. Brazil is all no, let's produce everything that Europeans need and send back to them. So first sugarcane, then coffee beans, was like an entire east part of the country that was the colonized part of the country back then, was based on plantations. So lots of slaves were necessary. It was the last country as well to abolish slavery. Huge racism, of course. And so In z when slavery ends in Brazil, eighteen eighty eight, you have this massive amount of people, uneducated. didn't want to work in the plantations they used to work anymore. But also, we don't have an industrial country that can observe this labor work. So at the same time, the industrial revolution is happening in Europe, in England again, and of course that's our role as Latin America to provide raw material to the first world. So we have rubber. So there is this rubber boon in the Amazon forest. So lots of former slaves move to the Amazon forest in order to extract rubber for tree that's in Portuguese is called seringueira. They become seringueiros. that is like the rubber tree. Well, so you have the Mm-hmm. To use like a Marxist concept, that is the owners of the production, the Andrew Heacock: Mm. Larissa Carneiro: exportation of the rubber, but you also have the cheap labor. And this cheap labor will be, you know, foreign enslaved people or poor white people like white, Portuguese descendants, mixed people. Brazil mixed fast. You know, since people didn't come to come like Okay, let's go to Brazil to make our life. Men would come alone. Well, they're gonna marry anyone, you know, like indigenous people, enslaved women, rape, all the violence and not violence that you can find in this mix, but Brazil makes very fast. not sometimes in a pissful way. Well, where these kind of people are gonna live, not in the neighborhoods of upper class, close to indigenous people. That is also the people who are minimized by the colonizers. So this guy, this six feet tall Braz African Brazilian, I was like the grandson of enslaved people, probably from like a tribe of giant black folks, you know? Because he's huge. You see pictures of him. God, that God is Brazilian people are not that tall. The guy was saying that For Americans, you know, that have lots of Scandinavian whatever blood. Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: You have like other tribes of giants. you it people are tall, but Brazilians are not. You know, indigenous people are short, you know, like but that guy was huge. And he goes and lives with indigenous people and he takes ayahuasca. And then he really he has visions and he's continue to take ayahuasca in the same way that indigenous people in that location took ayahuasca, having a diet, you know, like fasting, sexual abstinence. He goes to the woods, to the jungle and isolate himself and take ayahuasca, ayahuasca, and he started to have these visions with this woman that he called the queen of the forest. And she started to tell him the Doctrine, what he had to do, since he was an illiterate man, he's she started to teach him hymns. Very simple, very simple hymns. He was a literate man. And later on, later on, he identified that woman as the Our Lady of Macalak Conception. So look at this. You already had like three matrix here. You have the indigenous one, the practice. The practice, how you take ayahuasca, how you prepare ayahuasca, the requirements to take ayahuasca. It's not a substance, is not a drug, it is a medicine, it is a sacred substance, it is something to cause revelations. Also, you have his whole system of belief in spirits, in deities, that you know that is he was a Christianized man. That is the Brazilian Catholicism. And then, of course, the woman that he saw, he thought that was the mother of Jesus, one of the versions of the mother of Jesus. He starts very small. So the first Santa Church is a black church in which you have constant revelations. He created his doctrines in hymns. And the hymns, in my opinion, they are the most beautiful in the church. They are. But the thing the trick is if you listen to the hymn without ayahuasca, they are almost Yeah, nice. If you take with ayahuasca, you see the layers. You know, and then And then they are teachers. And then you see the doctrine of the church. As the church, the doctrine progresses, because look at it. I can I can receive a hymn. Hymns cannot be composed in the church of Santo Daimy. They are received, they are revelations. So if you can receive a hymn, the church is alive, the doctrine is alive. your your hymn is also a revelation. So the church more and more started to receive even more influence. So when Masterineo, this man who's called Jaimund, Masterineo, Master I Neo, when he dies, I would not say his heir, but in some sense it is the guy who takes the the who takes the religion. And actually becomes national and then global is Padrinho, Godfather Sebastião. Godfather Sebastião, Padrinho Sebastião was a guy who was raised in the Cardecist tradition, espiritualism, Espiritism in Brazil, which means that you comunicate with the dead. Andrew Heacock: Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: Which also goes very well with indigenous people, although. Alan Kardec, the founder of this spirituality, is Swiss. It goes some kind of well with indigenous religions, that is the communication with ancestors. So Padrinho Sebastian brings the communication with ancestors, with the dead spirits, with him. And this is incorporated in the Church of Santa. He also was very, very, very open. He was an open mind guide. He looks like a prophet. Big beard. You know, he looks like a prophet, which he attracts lots of hippies in Brazil. So lots of hippie people in the 60s. And then I am like in the 60s. Go to the Amazon Forest because there was this mode. There is a prophet there. And he has this substance. That he gives to people, and you have visions. people in the 60s were so open to that. You know, they wanted that so badly. And then he learned another African matrix religion in Brazil that is more like Brazilian, that is not candomblé, that's umbanda. Umbanda also have orisha, orishas in Portuguese, orishas here in English pronunciation. But in Condomblé, the spirits are more important. You know, is the spirit of the indigenous people, is the spirit of the old black man, is the spirit of the Pombajira, is kind of a witchy woman. So he brings also Umbanda. He gets involved with Umbanda. And then Santudaime becomes a mix of Catholicism, indigenous religious, Umbanda, Spiritism, goes to Europe, Hinduism, Buddhism. It is a porose. I talked to one of the most important people in the Santo Daime Church now in Brazil. I had the honor. I I was chasing this guy, you know, like and I I it's like I felt that I had to go through a process until I had like courage to approach him, said hey, I really want to talk to him. That is Padrinho Alex Polari. He is one also responsible for the globalization of Santo Daimy because he he was one of those hippies. And so he had like college degree. He was like in what is count literature. He was a writer. He goes to Acre and becomes like a follower of Padrin Sebastian and writes these three amazing, beautiful books about the doctrine. And these books were translated into English and became global. Alex Pollari told me something that is very beautiful. He said, you know, Santo Daimy is not one religion. It is a gate to your, to awaken your spirituality. So that's why it is a religion that is so syncretic. You know, because what you bring to the church in your revelation is also important. So doesn't have limit. You know, who knows what Santo Dami will be in decades? You know, it is very syncretic, it's very porose. And it's so fascinating. There is some, for example, Master I Neo. He created in in his hymns, he always talked about some kind of person, entity. We don't know what it is, that he written in uppercase letter. B G. And he addressed as someone. You know, is like he's addressing BG. B G said that, B G whatever. And once I was in a ceremony, kind of, you know, well, you are in a ceremony, right? You are under the effect of ayahuasca. But I since I always go, you know, which is not, I don't know, maybe it's not good, but I always go as a researcher. So I have like, you know, I I I I am there, but I also am like away from the circle. And I asked the person beside me. What is BG? Who is BG? I don't know. We don't know. You know, we don't know. But now, for example, you find people in the Santo Daimy writing that the BG is the Bhagavad Gita. Andrew Heacock: okay. Okay. Of course. Of course. Of course. And it's an entity that he's communicating with. Yeah. of course. Larissa Carneiro: Yeah, so it's like this this sacred knowledge that exists in the ether that is universal, but you have these many different religions and traditions that has this kind like it's like a layer, a spiritual layer in the cosmos that ayahuasca can give you access to that. Andrew Heacock: And I mean, the the thing that I've just been sitting with that you said some time ago is, you know, monotheistic religions are about having one controlled revelation. And Santaime Larissa Carneiro: Yeah. Andrew Heacock: is about being being ha able to have your own revelations. And that I like once you said that, I'm like, well, of course it's syncretic. You know, and Larissa Carneiro: Yeah. Andrew Heacock: we I mean, of of course, because it's whatever it is that whatever culture you're in, whatever you've been exposed to, you know, it's and at a certain level, it's all really like this kind of futile effort to reduce something to words that's inherently ineffable anyway. And so it's like I'm just trying to explain something to you that's kind of not really explicable. But it's kind of like, you know, and you can relate to the Bhagavad Gita if that's something you've been exposed to and you're a hippie in the 60s, of course you would. and it's it's fascinating and the blending to me is the most beautiful part. I mean, that's the most human part of it. And I think that Larissa Carneiro: Yes Yes. Andrew Heacock: there's an interesting debate kind of sort of debate going on now in the culture about cultural assimilation and and mixing, appropriation, things like that. There was this wonderful I love cinema. Cinema's my my gateway to the divine. one of them. And but before we end we have to talk about some Brazilian cinema. But there's a movie last year called Sinners. Did you see it? It was Yes. Okay, so it's Larissa Carneiro: my god, that movie Yes. Andrew Heacock: everything we're talking about, right? I mean it's about they're bringing this music from home, which was Africa and the Larissa Carneiro: And you had also the Irish stuff. Andrew Heacock: Of course, the Irish, but and and the you know, the brilliant thing about that movie to me was, you know, your expectation is okay, the vampires are going to be racists, but they weren't that. The vampires were palpably anti-racist. They were their part of their magic was empathy. They could literally feel each other's pain and they thought each other's thoughts, and they wanted everybody's music and songs together to blend them together. And I found myself, you know, the protagonists of the story were wanting to keep their culture and their music separate. And there is, I think, an interesting metaphor about. the the capitalistic ownership of that because like there was you know blues music was invented by African Americans in the South but then it was really owned by well it was kind of rediscovered by the Rolling Stones and then brought to America by them and then then it was mostly owned by by white record record producers. And I understand black ownership of of black art and the way that that film was financed actually has a lot to do with that. But I my instinct is to be like the mixing is good. Like the mixing prevents racism. Like it it provides for like you know I think a kind of a pluralism. But it I found myself like, damn, this is a fascinating and brilliant idea of like maybe the the separateness does make things a little bit more interesting. But I found that aspect of the of the screenplay brilliant. I was my favorite film of the year. And there was this dread that they had about assimilation, which I just by instinct is that's a good thing, right? Like the mixing. but with the mixing, you can kind of there's a washing out, I think, as well. anyway, I just that what that came to mind as I was thinking about this because it's Larissa Carneiro: No, yes, yes, yes. Andrew Heacock: also very much a part of the African diaspora, just like this in Brazil. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: Yeah. Yes. you and and you said something that you had an experience with the Uniqueen people. Andrew Heacock: Yes. Larissa Carneiro: It is so complicated right now about this kind of cultural appropriation issue because one of the major and and I completely, I completely, I you know, I who am I to judge and I completely support this. But so there are lots of concerns now with the globalization of ayahuasca for Because of the issue of protecting the plant. Andrew Heacock: Mm. Larissa Carneiro: it is not an endangered species yet, but it can be. So there is this other side. and the more like the consumption of ayahuasca grows in the international world, we know what humans do. You know, you will create a black market for this kind of substance and biopiracy. so biopiracy is already already an issue in Brazil. And attended a hearing called by the Department of Justice in Brazil in December last year. And it was fascinating, it was wonderful because they actually called representations, pe represent people representing the churches, indigenous people, many different peoples, lawyers that represent the peoples, indigenous people, and the churches. Also anthropologists, and and and everybody had a chance to talk, trying to create means to protect ayahuasca. to completely legalize and protect ayahuasca. And it's so complicated. Because first, what we call ayahuasca is a myth. Ayahuasca has so many different recipes. Ayahuasca is the globalized ayahuasca. Actually, that is one chapter of my book. I'm I I am writing my book, and I only can write my book during summer because I teach so much. And I am actually that is one of the chapters of the book that I'm writing. Ayahuasca has so many different recipes and so many different names because it they are different substance that. Do kind the same thing because usually you have like a source of DMT. That's basically what ayahuasca is. You have a source of DMT, you have a source of harming, beta-carboline harming to block the absorption of MT. The vine that you use, you can use many different vines, although the most common is Banisteriopska api. But what sometimes science kind Calls Banisteriopska api are more are different vines. And then you have one that's deglobalized ayahuasca, Scotraviridis, but you have like more than 90 catalog visionary plants. So it is hard to have like a patent. It's hard to protect ayahuasca as one single substance because it's not. It's hard to protect ayahuasca as a practice because. People use in different contexts for different purposes. And indigenous people are also part of this process of globalizing ayahuasca. Because now you find, for example, like retreats all over the world, especially like Costa Rica, Peru, Colombia, Brazil, Spain has lots in which they invite indigenous people to come to perform rituals. And and they do, and of course they have to do. That's that's part of their tradition. Although although the tradition what what how ayahuasca became is very different from if you read the practices with ayahuasca in the 1950s, before the globalization of ayahuasca. So it's different, you know, it's progressing. But as I said, indigenous people always had exchange. So that's why we don't know. that I am experienced the traditional use. No, you're not. There is no tradition. There is no tradition. We cannot trace the tradition. We can see like narratives from that anthropologist who visit like the Yanawa people in 1950s and describe how they use ayahuasca back then. You can use another anthropologist who visit like the Tucanu people and you know, in the 1940s. Richard Evans Shotis, who lived like in the Amazon forest with many different people, learned languages, observed, wrote extensively. It is completely different. So the indigenous people also are bringing this substance and their rituals to the rest of the world. So you it's very hard to stop that. And you cannot stop that. You cannot say that no, you cannot do that. Because we have to protect you. From the your you have to be pure while we are not. You know, and that's so silly. You know, this kind of also a racist racist perspective that indigenous people have to be pure, you know, have cannot change. No, they change. And so we don't know how it's gonna be, you know, because for example, in the Amazon 40 theoretically, only indigenous people can harvest ayahuasca. Banisteopska. even like Santo Daimi Church that is in Seldomapia in the middle of the Amazon, amazingly, they import daime from a church in São Paulo who is self-sustainable. They produce their own Banisteriofskafi. Most churches in Santo Daim self-sustainable, but Seldoma Pia in the middle of the Amazon, they cannot. Because in the Amazon forest, only indigenous people can harvest Banisteriops capi because of issues of preservation. It's impossible to protect the Amazon forest. You know, it is huge. You know, it is huge. You know, all the arms in the world combined would not be able to watch what has been done there. So you have illegal mining, you have like drug production, you have biopiracy. so there is this issue too. That is the dark side of Andrew Heacock: Mm. Larissa Carneiro: you know, the globalization of psychoactive substances. And people are trying to fix the problem, but you know, I don't know. I don't know how it's gonna do. Like peyote is already an endangered species, right? And the Native American Church is fighting for the criminalization of peori sometimes. Because sometimes governments states legalize substances that they don't don't own like was oregon oregon or washington state oregon decriminalized everything including peyote how how how you can decriminalize something that you know it is part of like indigenous spirituality and Peyote is already an endangered species. And because it's a schedule one substance, you cannot plant peyote. If I said, my god, I'm gonna do the good for the world, I'm gonna play plant peyote, right? I'm gonna be arrested by the DA as producing a substance that is more dangerous according to the schedule that fentanyl. Because fentanyl is scheduled too. So, you know, this kind of craziness about where these substances live in the legal landscape, it is complicated. So there is this side as well, you know, like the dark side of the substances because they needed to be protected. But how? If they are not legal, but there is a market for that. So sometimes the practice of taking is legal. But you cannot plant. Andrew Heacock: Makes tons of sense when you know a little bit Larissa Carneiro: Yes. Andrew Heacock: about drug policy in the United States. Yeah. It's it's not illegal to use, but it's illegal to have. We criminalize possession, Larissa Carneiro: Yeah, it's so weird. You know, like Andrew Heacock: not use. Yeah. That's how this country works. Larissa Carneiro: I I organized a symposium here at Duke and actually I I bought someone that maybe you can interview as well. I love her. Her name is Dawn Davis. She she's a Native American Shoshone tribes and she's a member of the Native American Church and she's activist for Peyote Conservation. And actually what I'm saying, I learn a lot with her. You know, because she she has worked a lot with peyote conservation, her PhD is about that, and she's an amazing woman. And she was one who actually her activism with her group could remove peyote from the legalized drugs drugs, that's how it's called, right? in Oregon. But because the status of endangered species, I can c I I That's just like but I can give you all her, you know, email and everything. because there is this also side that sometimes is not that these substances are dangerous, they are not addictive, you know, use a psychoactive substance, the classic psychedelics, they are not addictive. so it is not the issue of addiction, but is the issue like when you have like plants, they are So fragile in their ecosystem because you have years, decades, centuries of oppression, of people trying to erase these practices, and now it's this boom of psychoactive substances, retreats, and everything. You have to take care of these plants, but you also, as you said, you don't have a legal system that you actually can preserve these plants. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, that's something that you know I've heard mentioned a few times. I mean, some somewhat over the years of just concerned that the usage of these plants is getting more popular. and you know, some like peyote only grows in a very small stretch of desert in Texas. Larissa Carneiro: Yes. Andrew Heacock: You know, I mean it's a very small and it's not this most habitable place on earth. I mean, it's a desert, it's a cactus. Larissa Carneiro: You know? Andrew Heacock: and the the thing interesting thing about peyote is I think that I mean San Pedro, which is another cactus that also contains Larissa Carneiro: A journey. Andrew Heacock: the drug mescaline. is really abundant. I mean, there's probably plenty in my neighborhood here in Nashville. You know, I mean maybe not Nashville, but like in the southern United States, I mean, there's there's people growing with it growing in their yard and they don't know it. and, you know, I mean, San Pedro's really, really right. What did they have? Larissa Carneiro: yeah, Datura. New York has lots of datura in planters. Datura. my god, the gin weed, the devil's weed, ginsen weed, devil's weed. It's very pretty much used in what is Mexico today, indigenous practices, but also we find datura among indigenous people in Brazil. It's datura. It looks like a lily and is a highly hallucinogenic. It's yes, it's it's Andrew Heacock: Really? What does it contain? What what kind of compound? Larissa Carneiro: my god, now it is those names that I don't know how to pronounce. You can you can do this research for me. But like the Andrew Heacock: Got it, got it, sure, sure. Sure. We'll we'll look it up later. Yeah. Datura, yeah. Larissa Carneiro: Natura, it is not pleasant. And like sometimes i it is not for everybody. Sometimes they use as an addition to the a regular practice of either other Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: cycles as substances. But like for example, the Mayas, the Aztec, they use extensively, but they were like, you know, like encyclopedia of how things to take and how to take. and it is a nasty one and and that's I have a neighbor who has like it's beautiful. It's a lily, it's gorgeous. I have a neighbor who doesn't know and I said, my god, you know, and New York, lots of planters in New York has Datura. because people Yeah. Andrew Heacock: Without knowing what it is. you know, one thing that was coming up for me when you're talking about just like the preservation of the plant, but also, I mean, people trying to suppress the plant at the same time and Larissa Carneiro: Yes. Andrew Heacock: this weird legal system we're in. And I've realized like, yeah, legalization would actually help us preserve these better. as I one of the things that one of the plant medicines that I've worked with, I don't really anymore, is cacao, ceremonial cacao. and I did a training with it with a Mayan Shaman from Guatemala and a Mexican woman who's a friend and Who introduced me to the medicine. And it's it's psychoactive in the sense that caffeine is psychoactive. I mean, it's a stimulant. It's Larissa Carneiro: Mm-hmm. Andrew Heacock: got theyobromine in it, and which is means the food of the gods. I love that. And really, I just for me, it was a grounding practice. And it was my intention was to open my heart. And I think it's fascinating that we we've known it was a heart opener, is how the Mayans referred to it. but we only discovered, discovered that it was a vasodilator like 50 years ago, that it would, it would open your blood vessels and stimulate your your myocardium and. I learned that also through the training that it was a the bean was the currency of the Mayan Empire. It was that important to them, which it kind of makes sense to facilitate trade. And I'm sitting here and I'm the only American in this training. you know, everyone else is Mexican, and they were kind enough to speak English for me. It was on Zoom, which was weird, you know, talking to a Mayan shaman with a cigar and she's in Guatemala and like and her kids are everywhere. And it was it was a beautiful thing, but I'm like, I feel very white. Like, I feel like I'm it would not be okay for me to be. doing this and it was explained to me that they really they want Northenios to to bring it to America to use this practice and to to I think to also help take care of the plant. But you know it's chocolate. It's the raw ingredient in chocolate. And so it's not done at an industrial scale. It's done, you know, a a woman, you know, will will ground it herself on a matate and it's it's a beautiful practice. but that what they told me was we used to have there was a tradition associated with this, but we've lost it because the the Catholics, the Spanish, stamped it out. Larissa Carneiro: Mm-hmm. Andrew Heacock: they they it was they saw it as a threat to to their, you know, to Catholicism. And so now it's like we have, you know, whatever it whatever it is that we can make of it now is what it is. And it's just been coming up for me a lot that when that was her explanation was you're not doing anything wrong because, you know, the whatever whatever lineage there was associated with it was was eradicated and now we just have the plant and and we're trying to make something anew of it. it just reminded me of what you were saying where there really is no one pure religion. There is no one practice. Larissa Carneiro: I just Andrew Heacock: and the Catholics that were stamping that out also really, there was a huge problem with the Virgin of Guadalupe in Mexico City. and at the same time, like, and which is fascinating, Mexico City is one of my favorite places on earth because it is so syncretic. The mixing of things. my God. Like you can go to Larissa Carneiro: No ho. Andrew Heacock: the basilica. Where there's there's Tepeak, there's the hill where this Aztec goddess, who was also maybe the Virgin Mary, and came down and and you know, and you can get your fortune told on the steps. Like there's fortune tellers. And I was just like, What is this? What is this? You pay five pesos and a little bird will pick your fortune out of it. It's amazing. It's amazing. my God, it's so beautiful. Larissa Carneiro: Yes, yes. That is so you you know you understand the catholicism in Brazil. Is this? Yeah, yes, so that in Brazil you have yeah, yeah, it's gorgeous! I love it, I love it as well, it's gorgeous. Andrew Heacock: There it's beautiful. Just the things that people get up to were so creative. There's this fountain, there's a spring. One of the miracles that the apparitions of the of the Virgin Guadalupe was to bring a spring forth at the base of the hill. And there's this beautiful statue monument there. And it's a it's a bunch of clearly Indian people, like clearly dressed as Indian, their gold feathers and things. With this Virgin Mary who's brown, like dark brown. And I was like, this is just right out there. There's very little that's Christian about what I'm seeing here. It's clearly like this was a pre-existent Aztec deity that these people recognized and they assimilated into that. I think it was kind of the what I was told was the whole reason that that the Aztecs, the Mexicas started to actually convert to Christianity was that they had this figure, this Tonan Sin figure. and the Catholics hated that for like a hundred years. And I was like, you know, it's like the best thing you had going for you at the time. you know, bringing bringing people by the millions. Larissa Carneiro: Yes, and and they have to accept. They Andrew Heacock: Well, I I learned also that in Mexico, they you know, Francis was Latin American. Say the Pope Francis, you would think he'd be a big deal there, but he's really not. It's John Paul II, because he was the first Pope to visit Mexico and he canonized the Indian man who the apparition appeared to, Juan Diego. He made him a saint. And they just they love, they love John Paul II there now, because they love this Larissa Carneiro: Yeah. Andrew Heacock: Virgin of Guadalupe. And You know, I'm raised Catholic. I'm from Louisiana and and I'm from North Louisiana. The Catholicism that I was raised in was very parochial. And it's very, you know, Catholicism was kind of like the original franchise. You know, like there's the there's the headquarters in my and the Rome. Larissa Carneiro: Yeah. Andrew Heacock: And every church, it's just like McDonald's. Every church you go into anywhere in the world, you're for the most part basically gonna get the same experience, the same mass, the same symbols. Well, not really. But in the United States, I found it was pretty much by the book. New Orleans is a little different. There's there's some there's voodoo and there's Santa Ria, but in the churches it's still very Larissa Carneiro: Yeah. Andrew Heacock: very parochial. But you know, when my family will ask, you know, I tell them about Mexico City and how amazing it is, they're just they're like, Yeah, what's the deal with the Virgin Mary there? Because you go into a Catholic church in Mexico City or anywhere in Mexico and the center, just giant Mary, and then off to the side there's like a little bitty baby Jesus. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, it's it's about Mary. Larissa Carneiro: Yes. that's the same in Brazil. Jesus, no. Our lady, yes. It's about Mary. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She Andrew Heacock: Yeah. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: is the mother. She is the female deity. And actually, I honestly I think that is one of the most beautiful things in Catholicism because we have actually a goddess, you know, like Andrew Heacock: Me too. Mm? Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: me, I I go all to the default, you know, raised Catholic, like this kind of thing. But but yes, it absolutely because it makes so much sense. in in order to merge right with other religions. Catholicism is also in some sense a very and and don't understand but like it it is a it is a a religion that was very easy to turn into a syncretic religion because you have so many deities it some some scholars actually question if it is a monotheistic really right Andrew Heacock: I definitely do. I don't think it's monotheistic at all. Yeah. Angels, saints, like yeah, I mean, yeah. Larissa Carneiro: Because you have so many deities. my god. Yes. That Andrew Heacock: The devil, yeah. I mean you have there's so many supernatural entities, yeah. Larissa Carneiro: would go very well with indigenous religions who Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: also had many spirits, many like realms, like Catholicism, you have hell, you had you had the limbo that doesn't exist anymore. Andrew Heacock: Right, which is got written out. Yeah, got revealed out. Yeah. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: The purgatory, you know, you have also this underworld, upper world that also indigenous cosmologies are. But you know, you said something that I I I I think that is necessary to emphasize here. You know, you're talking about, you know, you your experience and acceptance. And then I went to the dark side, but I I I wanted to emphasize something that I I I I appreciate what is happening now because it With all the issues of regarding these plants and the use of these plants and the protection of these plants, I cannot, and maybe I am completely wrong and I am not a historian and I am being stupid, but I cannot recall a moment in history that at least indigenous knowledge is being searched, sought. And appreciated. It is the first time. Sometimes the view it is romantic. As I said, you know, the tradition in the indigenous traditions also change a lot. They don't have like there is no practice that you can trace back, track back, like, you know, no, of course not. In which because they are people. They are people. Andrew Heacock: No writing, right? Without like a without like a text. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: You know, it's like they think that they live like in a tribe and no. They're relating with other people, intermarrying, you know, all kinds of stuff, and traveling. They love to travel, you know, nomads. but it is the first time that I see people actually giving them a place at the table. for having a conversation. You know, even including in academia. You know, like I'm not talking about I'll talk every realms because it's something that they they fought for centuries, especially after like the nineteenth century, that you have like forced conversion and like schools for converting indigenous people, separating children from parents and forcing language, culture, religion, and there is a a strange outcome from this violence that is like the contradiction that is born into this violence that they learned how to fight, how to have a voice. They learned the the importance of knowing our legal system. Our language, because if they wanted to have their rights defended, they would have to have a ice and they would have to stand up for themselves and talk to us in our language because people would not learn their language. You know, they had to negotiate that. And for the first time, you know, I think they are very modestly still, very modestly, but hopefully. getting a place at the table, you know, to defend their own interests, to defend, for example, the ownership of some medicine. For example, you're talking about the substances. I can understand, honestly, like I can understand a prehistoric man, you know, following like the track of bisons, buffaloes or whatever in North Africa that was like not a desert back then, you know, a lush forest, and hungry. And of course psilocybin, most kinds of psilocybin, grows in animals, feces. Yeah. Andrew Heacock: Dung. Yeah, VC's dung. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: So I can understand a man, a woman, whatever Is hungry and say, you know what, I'm gonna eat this. And then you have, wow, that revelation, you know, that experience that is outside of your body and you don't understand. And then maybe that's the the beginning of religious systems, you know, because suddenly you are not living in this profane world anymore, and you are having contact with other stuff, and you are seeing things different, colors are different, and suddenly you look at the animal that you want to hunt. And you have a contact, you can see the anima of that animal. Right? You can see the energy. You become the animal. You anticipate what the animal is gonna do, and then increases your power of hunting and killing that animal. But then when you kill that animal, you also have to say some thanking them for that vital force, maybe. But when you're talking about ayahuasca, I That is not a plant. That is a complex. That is a concussion. I cannot have the patent of peori. You cannot have patent of plants. I cannot have the patent of even iboga. I cannot have the I cannot say, hey, all this species of psilocybin belong to me. No. But when you're talking about a recipe, A medicine, a concussion. I can have a patent. And there have been by big pharmacological companies hundreds, okay, maybe I'm exaggerated, but at least 130 attempts to have a patent over ayahuasca. All of them failed. But is a con a concern. And it is I it blows my mind. I can understand. Getting a mushroom, eating a mushroom, and say, whoa. But finding a vine, a specific vine, lots of different kinds of vines in the Amazon Forest. Amazon forest, almost every single tree has a vine. Not Andrew Heacock: Right, right. Larissa Carneiro: necessarily Banistediopska api. Find an ordinary, ordinary bush that has nothing special about that bush, doesn't have a beautiful. Plant then it smell good. Nothing. It's a bush. In a forest that is barely, you can see the ground. It's just bush. It's just trees and vines. Take two or more because ayahuasca is just the tip of the iceberg. Indigenous people in Brazil use so many other psychoactive substances mixed in recipes. Complex. How? How they did it? How I almost use the F-word here. You know how they did it. There is a sophistication. That is not something that is, you know, by chance I was hungry and ate a mushroom. I was. Andrew Heacock: Right. It's the combination that makes it like infinitely less likely to, right? I mean, just the like just from a mathematical perspective. Larissa Carneiro: Yes, and it is culmination. It is like the preparation is not easy. It is not easy. It's not something, yeah, I'm gonna marry my no. You know, it requires a lot of like you know, you don't cook just once, you cook many times, you have different degrees, you add stuff. My god, because Andrew Heacock: It's like it's like potions. It's like one of the potions in Harry Potter. It really is. It's the same thing. It's the same. They're magic potions. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: Yeah. yeah, they're magical potions. They are magical potions in medicine. And they use for everything. And and like let's say that they had a recipe that's the base of ayahuasca. like let's see. They have like let's say the the the ordinary. They have the banister of scapy they have like the cicatrides. They would add so many different things based on the need. You know, and and not only add in the concussion. Sometimes, for example, datura, sometimes they would chew two or three leaves of datura during the experience with ayahuasca. Sometimes they you'd use like what now it's becomes very common, the hape, like the tobacco, right? That many different kinds of tobacco, it's not just one, it's many different kinds. So it is so much to be investigated, so much to be studied with respect. You know, with respect. Div you know, like it we cannot appropriate. Pharmacological companies cannot just appropriate and start to commercialize this because that is it it is the same thing that you know, some scientist invents something and then I go there and patent their work, their intellectual work, and and I will profit. billions of dollars and they are continue to live in poverty. it is it is so complex and we science is still think in terms of molecule. So yeah let's isolate DMT. let's isolate the mascleine let's isolate the psilocybin It is a lot in these plants. You know, it is a freaking lot in these plants. And they mix so many things that science, so we need, and I think that is the biggest contribution of indigenous people. We need a new epistemology and plant science and plant biology. When we think less about isolating molecules. And combinations, maybe is not that molecule alone, maybe is that molecule with everything that is put together, even the water. Yes, even the water. Andrew Heacock: Everything. Yeah. The the entourage effect. Yeah, the entourage effect is what I've heard. Yeah. Right. Larissa Carneiro: Water. You know, when you prepare dime, it's usually you have to be very careful about the source of water. The best dime that I tried. The water came from the mountains. Don't don't ask me why. I don't know. The best scotch comes from the highlands. I don't know. You know, I exactly. So Andrew Heacock: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, the water makes a big difference if you're dr if you're making a brew of something, yeah. Larissa Carneiro: and is is the properties, the medical properties different? Is the experience diff probably yes? The anomami people in Brazil, just to have like I'm sorry, I I go from one subject to the other, but I one Andrew Heacock: I love it. You're very syncretic. This is a beautiful conversation. Larissa Carneiro: like the anomaly people in Brazil, it's a fascinating people. they they live in the middle of the forest. they they they don't travel much, they they they don't share their rituals, they don't you know have retreats, nothing like that. But they use a substance that's called Yaquana. And well they use many, okay? But the one of the major ones is yaquana. And yacuana it is the substance they use to give them access to the world of the spirits, what they call Shapiripe. And the Shapiripe, of course, it comes first as l perception of lights, which you know Jean-Claude Claude. Called like the first stage of trance that you see, like lights and geometric forms and everything. And then the spirits come to you. What is different about, like sometimes, not different, other people do that, but the the anomami they usually take, they make daily daylight rituals. Because for them, you don't need a koana when you're sleeping, because it's the same stage of dreams, it's the same. Dreams also provide you the same access that a iacuana does. Well, yakuana, if I'm gonna describe you in a very simple thing, is a bark. The thing is, it's not just the bark. They have the bark. Don't ask me to give the scientific name of the other two plants. They add two more plants comes different, like trees. three. It's not one. Like the hallucinogenic. Component comes from one tree. Okay? That's the science would be whoa! That's the molecule that we want. They mix with two different plants. And do you know Brazilian nuts? These plants they dry out and they have to grind them in a bowl specifically made with the wood of Brazilian nut tree. Not other one. Well, any person, you know, I I love to cook, and I know that I cannot use a plastic board. I have to use a wood board because if I cut. vegetables and everything in a plastic board, I am ingesting microparticles of plastic. So that wood that they're grinding in a molecular level, it's in the substance as well. These kind of things, this kind of holistic perception of these plants, of this absolutely mind-blowing substance that they created. That's not how scientific environment is researching them. They are isolating. And and it's powerful. Don't don't don't don't misunderstand me. You know, like I was talking to a member of the church that he took synthesized DMT and he said, you know, you know, so and he actually asked me Did you have you ever used Ether? Andrew Heacock: Like just the ether, just just Larissa Carneiro: And I did in Brazil was very common during carnival. You know, you missed the don't don't no Andrew Heacock: Got it. Got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't recommend I don't mean huh huffing anything is a bad idea. Larissa Carneiro: like i i it I I used once and never more, you know, because like the simply the floor disappears. And believe me, we are not made to fly. We need a ground to stand upon. So it is this need to lay down. And he said and he told me, have you either experiment ether? I say it once never more. He said synthetized DMT is the same. He said it's so strong, so strong that I decades of use of Daimy, which is strong. Daimy it is has different it has a different way is like the church prepares ayahuasca in a different way, which actually Some indigenous people are using the preparation of the church. You're talking about culture exchange. Andrew Heacock: Interesting. Yep. Larissa Carneiro: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is has perks in the way they prepare. and he said, it is I I I I I could not stand up. He said, but like since didn't have the better carbo line, I mean, I, you know, 20 minutes, you are good to go, good to drive. So I'm not minimizing the power. Of the molecule, you know, like yes, they are powerful. You know, you you you take like DMT pure or you take like masculine as Aldox Huxley took mascaline and wrote a book about it, they are very powerful. But if you're talking about plant medicine, there are lots to be investigated in how indigenous peoples prepare those medicines. It is not molecule discourse. It is way more than that. And I think that's why we have so much to learn and be humble and try a new epistemology that maybe in a way we can engage them, including the the importance of the ritual. Andrew Heacock: Yes, absolutely. I mean, well, the thing is the ritual is likely to include components. Like you said, I mean, using this particular bowl, like from a particular tree. That probably, I mean, I assume has a ritualistic intention, but it's still Larissa Carneiro: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andrew Heacock: having the effect of probably doing something. There's some kind of compound, organic compound in that wood or something that's I mean, and you have all of these variables, and you're right. I mean, one of my previous guests was a psyched as a psychedelics lawyer and we talked about this about the way that it the way that drug policy in the US works. We we know the United States, we will patent or prohibit organic compounds. It's a long, convoluted name. They don't prohibit marijuana. They don't prohibit they prohibit delta nine tetrahydrocannabinol. So and that works because science is about materialistic reductivism. Like we're trying to reduce everything to one variable that you can isolate and then you can manipulate that with a control group and an experimental group and That is how science has progressed. And the problem is the mind is not that. And it's one of the reasons why I've wanted to study psychology. And we talked about before is Larissa Carneiro: You won't. Andrew Heacock: my frustration of with it's clinical psychiatry in the United States is thinking that the mind is just, it's just a it's just nothing but a bunch of receptors. And you can just you can target this receptor with a serotonin reupteg inhibitor and and you'll get a better mood. And it's just people are the mind does not work that way. The brain is far too complex. And It is interesting the way you say this about our approach to plants as well. Larissa Carneiro: Mm-hmm. Andrew Heacock: Like there's kind of this irreducible complexity to plants into the mind as well, that we need a new approach to botany and to biology. Really is to account for this complexity. And yeah, and and it does also make it difficult vis-a-vis ownership, which I see a lot of people I think would say is a good thing. They don't want them to be owned because if you can own these processes and these medicines, then you can prohibit people from using them, you know, or Larissa Carneiro: Mm-hmm. Andrew Heacock: you can you can charge money and and There's a lot of problems morally that come with ownership. but then there's also like cultural ownership too. So it it is one of these things that's it's a mixed, it it's kind of a mixed bag for me. But yeah, that what I'm appreciating here is just the unbelievable complexity of and Larissa Carneiro: yes. Andrew Heacock: you're you're even mentioning the plants, and you're right. It is amazing. Like, how do they figure out how to combine these two plants? Larissa Carneiro: I don't know. Andrew Heacock: I've heard that they watch the Jaguars, because the Jaguars will take it. And Larissa Carneiro: Yes, but the tigers they take psychotria viridis. They don't Andrew Heacock: They eat everything. Larissa Carneiro: cook You know the Vanestereopscop. You know. Andrew Heacock: Right. They don't they don't go through this process. You know, I could get beer. Like if you had a jar in the Nile and it was full of barley and it got a little water in it and grew some mold and then all of a sudden you got beer as an accident. Like I could see that accident happening. and people eventually reverse engineer that. But the complexity that you're describing with something like ayahuasca. Larissa Carneiro: No, and look look, you go you you are in the forest, it is way it y you barely can define, although indigenous people, they are gonna define the like for example, if you get a a plant biologist, you need it to to to be like you you only can categorize like but just by looking, not with the microscope a plant, if it is blossoming. indigenous Andrew Heacock: Mm. Larissa Carneiro: people in any any any period of the plant. Growth and and and it will give you, they will give you like three, four different names. that people call this plant this, that other people call that plant. So their knowledge. But imagine I barely can identify a single plant. I don't know because they are s they grow so so intermingled with one another that I cannot say, yeah, look at this. But if I don't follow the stem, I cannot identify. That is the the thing. But there are lots of If you're interested, I can talk a little bit about there. Is there is lots of theories, okay? I have actually. Andrew Heacock: I would love to know that. Larissa Carneiro: Yes. So for example, one thing that we know that I I I I love science, by the way. I criticize science and I love science. You know, I I do think that science changes approach and takes you know, because I believe in scientific knowledge, I believe in progression, and science it's it's is good. Because they say, okay, we are completely wrong, let's move on, you know, and take the another step. So now, for example, we know that we have as complex or more complex neural systems in the guts than in our brain. And that's why so hard to heal, cure, or even diagnose any problem, any syndrome in our gut. We have this irritable bow syndrome. That means I don't know what you have, you have something. And we know that you know our guts regulate the production of neurotransmitters. That's it's sometimes they are triggered by stress. So that's why when you have like a stressful day, if you have like problems in your digestive system, you can have like a flare-up. It is so related, they communicate so much with your brain, and actually, we have more serotonin receptors in our guts than our brain. So, actually, there is a theory that ayahuasca affects first your digestive system. That's why the purging, that's why the diarrhea. And that actually is what triggered the neurosystem. But if you are missing the point. If you are just studying the brain and not the guts, but the guts are very, very complex. So this ignorance is promising. You know, I love ignorance. I love when people say, I have no clue. Because that means that we are good spot, because the danger, including like in political environment, is to Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: say, I have all the answers, right? So the doubt is Good. so there is this theory that like animals have intelligence what they have to eat, that we are animals too. We we we usually high kind of split ourselves, the animals, you know, and we are not animals, that we also had this intelligence and we lost it because we are confused. We have so Many offerings. We have so much sugar. We have so much fat. You go to the grocery store, we have so many additives, pesticides, and this and that. We have so much offering that we our brain here Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: doesn't work anymore as supposed to be. So, for example, peyote. Peyote is a beautiful. Right? It's gorgeous, gorgeous, mathematically perfect. You know, it's beautiful. Doesn't have any thorn, nothing. Doesn't have any any means for protection. Every plant that doesn't want an animal to eat, you know, gets all kinds of protection, you know, and venoms and whatever, poisons and everything. And you it's prickly. You don't want to go there. Usually the hallucinogenic plants they don't have anything to protect them. You know, it's almost as like say, take me, take me. But they are freaking bitter. And Andrew Heacock: Mm. They don't taste good. Larissa Carneiro: no, animals like sometimes anybody the animals don't eat peyote. You know, it's bad. That's how humans started to eat. Because when it's bitter, usually means that it's full of alkaloids. And alkaloids are among the most powerful anti-inflammatory. So the potential actually to fight inflammation, it is huge. And so many and inflammation is also so badly we don't know anything about inflammation. It's it's it's easy To say, yeah, I cut my finger, you know, I didn't disinfect my finger. No, look, it's inflamed. That's one kind of inflammation. my god, I have a bacteria here. That's a kind of inflammation. But most inflammation in our bodies, they are triggered by what we don't know, and they are very bad, like this Bow syndrome. Andrew Heacock: I I have an autoimmune disorder. is kinda how I'm I got interested in mental health because it's been diagnosed as well, anything else, you know. I mean I've got like a little skin stuff going on my face right now because it moves around. It IBS is one of the few things I don't have. but it is all gut related. And it basically when I eat pretty much almost any plant material, my body attacks itself. and so I'm I'm you I'm easing mostly meat right now and it's not where I want to stay for the rest of my life. I I like other things, but I also notice that when I travel outside the United States, like when I go to Mexico, the food doesn't bother me as much. I mean, if I eat churros and ice cream with Nutella, I do still would not feel good. It but like, but just the regular food that, you know, it's not like sweets. I do better. I think probably some of the mass mass agriculture, the industrial agriculture here affects me. Larissa Carneiro: And it so another name that you have to write, you know that you have to interview is Charles Charles. Andrew Heacock: I love this. I love this. I love I every time I interview someone, I've got like three more, four more people. I this is why I love doing what I do. Larissa Carneiro: You have to interview. In my opinion, one of the best guys in psychedelic research. His name is Charlie Nichols. And he is in Louisiana. Okay? Louisiana State University. Charlie Nichols. Andrew Heacock: That's where I went to school. Larissa Carneiro: my God. One Andrew Heacock: Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: of the best labs in psychedelic research, in my view. And I when I tell you, you should interview these people, in the package is. The person is awesome because you know I don't want negativity in my life. You can be brilliant as much as you can if you are a jackass. Get out. I don't I don't care your credentials, right? Andrew Heacock: Right? Yeah. If you're just a jackass, it doesn't matter how smart you are. It really doesn't. Yeah. I mean, yeah. What yeah, yeah. Larissa Carneiro: and Charles Nichols, he is the son of David Nichols, that was one of the chemists, pioneers in the first wave. Of psychedelic research. He was in Purdue University and he was the responsible for back them in the 60s and 70s, producing almost of the semi-synthetized or synthetized substance that people use in research. Charles Nichols went to a completely different way. His father didn't want him to work with psychedelics, but he worked in psychedelics. But Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: he works with inflammation. And his results are being Amazing. And in my opinion, it is the hope for autoimmune diseases. And of course, he's not working yet in human hub subjects, so you have this problem with psychedelics sometimes when you are using like rodent model, but we are mammals, so we share a big chunk of DNA, right? Andrew Heacock: Immune system. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: Yeah, so. It is and his research is fascinating. And what is fascinating, he's he's researching especially psilocybin, and so his the dose is so small that doesn't provoke the that doesn't cause any high. but it's being really, really good for this kind of inflammation that we still don't know the cause. Of course, there are causes. Causes or many, many, multiple causes, we don't know, but we don't know. We don't know. And it's being absolutely good because psychoactives they are so rich in so and the psychoactive that he's gonna describe to you, he's gonna talk about so many different chemical components on psilocybin, in psilocybin that you know triggers different neurotransmitters and responses in your bodies. His research is fascinating. Fascinating. So again, again, I teach at Duke University, one of the best medical schools in the country. Very good. Very good. We don't have plant plants. This is a moment of silence that I like to have a moment of silence to sink in. You know, for me to have a a medical school, it should be required to have research with plants. Not only psychoactive plants, but plants. You know, we it this is such an ancient knowledge that I think I think we are going back to this plant, especially I think psychoactive substances are doing something incredibly good. It's to make us to pay attention in plants again. My goodness, penicillin, you know, saved. Some people say that the World War II was won not by bombs, but by the ones who had more antibiotic. And that is a common fungus. You know, Andrew Heacock: Yep. Yep. Larissa Carneiro: so. So much we can learn for this plant for to have a better quality of life. That is, I think it is under study. I think we need to change. And I think psychedelics, if you ask me honestly, the most important thing about this new wave of psychedelic research, in my opinion, it is to open up. Literally, literally, open up. Our minds to the natural world. I think they are so connected with the protection of the planet, you know, not only in realizing that we're part of something that is bigger than us, that we're connected to all things, the so-called ego dissolution, Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: but also to make us understand that our world is so rich, so many different cultures have so much to teach. And these plants are so amazing that we have to change our entire way of life. We have to sacrifice lots of stuff and start to pay attention to the simple things that this planet offers us. Because we were born here, we evolved here. Things that can heal us are here. Not that we're looking for immortality. No, no, no, no, no, not at all. But at least a happier life. And a healthier life. Religions that use psychedelics don't require faith. I love that. Faith is blind. Faith is someone has to tell you, you know, that is how it is. You know, the world was created in six days and the seventh day. God rested. And you have to believe that, right? You have to have faith in something. Psychedelic religions, you see stuff. You don't need to have faith. You see them, you experience them. And one of the biggest things I think about psychedelic plants, it is the ability they have to make you to understand that in fact you are a member of this planet. You Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: know, you need sun, you need water, you need wind, you know, you need relationships with other human beings. You know, it is, you know, a bird is not less important than you are. You know, look an insect, we have to protect them as well. You know, let's pay attention to plants. I I think it's this kind of thing. And in a practical way, because so many good scholars and scientists now are researching psychedelics. And although we still have the molecule discourse, they are open up in a possibility for plants. And I tell something to people, I most of the invitations that I have to talk. Like in institutions? It's not in religious studies. Can you imagine that? It's medical school. Andrew Heacock: Really? That's encouraging at least. yeah, that's encouraging. There does seem to be a lot of interest in the last ten years that has just grown. Larissa Carneiro: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So there is like it's not that science is blind, but there are still so many it's so hard to approve a trial with psychoactive substances. And the FGAs has so many requirements that in order to approve you still Have to have this highly controlled environment with high controlled dosing experiments in order to be fully reproducible. The experiment. So it's not that science doesn't want to do, for example, instead of an individual trial, a communal trial. As you have in religions that use psychoactive substance, when you go like to a retreat, we're gonna You know, although it's an individual journey, you are sharing with the community. You are doing together. This changes as well. it's not that they don't want to, but it's so hard to approve a protocol that escapes a little bit the normative protocol. And this yeah, sorry. Andrew Heacock: Well, there there's this so this is something I'm really one of the notes I was making was there's someone else I need to talk to about this that knows about the FDA's rejection of the the MDMA trial. And the the problem is, you know, we started off by challenging an assumption about syncretism, which is that there's no there's a right way to do religion. And the assumption that the people like at the FDA have is that the medicine can be separable from the therapy that goes along with it. You know, like psychedelic therapy, it's an experience, it's experiential therapy, basically. No different than doing like internal family systems or EMDR or something like that. Like there's an experience of doing it. And when you see a figure of a mother deity, like which is you can't control for that, but if you see it, the meaning that you make from that has a lot to do with the the therapeutic effect of it. And this, you know, there's this famous term set and setting that you're in. And And that does matter. I mean, like if you're in a setting where you're in the jungle, you're probably gonna have a more more of an an earthbound experience, I think, than if you were at some music EDM concert or something, which I would not advocate doing that at all. And it it it it's almost kind of like you were saying, like, we need a new epistemology for plants. We we also need a new epistemology for the mind and for healing because Larissa Carneiro: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Andrew Heacock: the at a certain level, like if it works. We still want to know why it works because the mind can, we have this placebo effect and we can trick ourselves. But and then again, if we're still better, do we really care if it's the placebo effect? I mean, there's some ethical questions that need to be need to be addressed here. And also there's this like just the idea that we could separate, we could isolate psilocybin or the alkaloid ibogaine as opposed to iboga and do it in a clinic. And that's going to give you the same results every time because it's the same drug, is just fallacious because. For one thing, you're you're taking what works out of the context that may be important, like that wooden bowl. You know, that where you are and what you're doing and all the entourage of of things that you're encountering has a lot to do with the therapy. But then there's also like people have their own, like it they're basically you're inducing a religious experience. You can't control for the cultural influences that person's been exposed to. You can't control Larissa Carneiro: Mm-hmm. Andrew Heacock: if they're a Muslim, they're gonna probably see different symbols than if they're an atheist or if they're a hippie from San Francisco or you know, they might see Bhagavad Gita and think it's a person. You know, name PG. And so you you just you you if you slept badly, right? Like I mean, depending on what you've been eating. Larissa Carneiro: If we slept if you slept badly, you know. If you drink more coffee than you should, you know, e everything is fair. Andrew Heacock: Right, right, right. There's no way to there's no way to account for all of that. And that's kind of an inherent part of the the medicine of the healing. And that's I think my concern is that this is what happened with marijuana with is that you know, we schedule one to all these drugs back in the sixties to marginalize the anti-war movement. And eventually people caught on that they weren't super dangerous, and so people just rushed to adopt them and it was just completely bypassed science. Like science is slow necessarily and couldn't catch Larissa Carneiro: Mm-hmm. Andrew Heacock: up. And I I think that we're in a situation now where we're gonna see that again with psychedelics where people are just gonna rush out to take them and they're gonna take them wherever they're able to get access to them because there's the cat's kind of out of the bag now. And it's unfortunate that that's happened because there are legitimate discoveries to be made and there are also safety protocols that need to be understood. Larissa Carneiro: Mm-hmm. Andrew Heacock: and all the scientific research is going to divorce these drugs these medicines from the traditions that they're that they're used to that they're associated with, which is kind of like I'm saying, maybe not something that should be separated. There is this, you know, they want a double blind placebo controlled trial. That's the gold standard in science. But there's Larissa Carneiro: Which is very questionable when you're using Syllaus Andrew Heacock: Well, you can't, you can't blind psilocybin. Like you can't blind double both parties. It's unmistakable which group is right, right. You just know, Larissa Carneiro: Even, even if you're a naive subject, believe me, you know. Andrew Heacock: right? You give someone niacin, they're gonna know they're on niacin. So there is something else that's called naturalized studies that is what I've learned a lot about with psychiatric drugs and a lot of what we think we know about how psychiatric drugs work, we don't really know. You'll take some six week long Studies of a single drug, and then you'll say, okay, you can use that for years in combination with these other drugs. And it just doesn't really work that way. Naturalized studies are where you just simply observe people and you look at the people that take the drug and you compare the people that choose not to take the drug and you follow them for years and you just see who gets better outcomes. And there's lots of variables or whatever, but it's like what the real world will reveal you, reveal to you about how these drugs work. And I think that that style, that approach to research, even though it's less epistemologically perfect, Larissa Carneiro: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Andrew Heacock: will is actually more revealing if, you know, you have to get the person to take the drug. You know, like if the person taking agreeing to take the drug is a factor, which in psychiatry it is, it it it just doesn't really pay to have something that's very confabulated in a lab. And I think like what you're describing, you know, we have these practices, these people have these religious practices in these churches. Like we could just simply study those people, look at the different religious practices that are different and see how the outcomes are different. And you can kind of tease out, deduce some of the some of the variant, the relevant variables. but I have concern for like what you're saying. It's kind of the thing for me really is b biopiracy. That's a new term I've never heard before that I'm going to take away from this is just like a concern of like the theft of the genetics of the plant or or also this the over consumption of it. Larissa Carneiro: Yeah, yeah. And we you're it like I it is so complex. Like we have you you're talking about like y you're interested in psychology. I am a deep believer in therapy. Okay. I I did therapy for like twelve years. Tells a lot about me. But I believe in therapy. And I do believe in the combin I do believe that psychedelics can have a huge impact in therapy. For some reason, some reason there are like a magical number that is being determined. Like, you know, you have like two or three sessions of preparation, then you have like the, you know, like the session, and then you have like three more sessions of integration, right? I don't know if it's enough. You know, like I I don't know right. Andrew Heacock: Read. Yep. Larissa Carneiro: Why? You know, i I I I think there's so much to unpack and I don't I don't even believe in the magical pill of one single session. You know, like although some people say, one single session, yeah, for some people, but we're not talking about for some people. Because I as you you are saying, one of like the I think the anxieties of the FDA. Because okay, you take a Tylenol, you know what Tylenol does, right? You take like even with well, like let's say these SSRI drugs, you know, you take Alexapro, affects your brain. But usually, if you don't have like resistance to AlexaPro, or if you don't have like lots of side effects of AlexaPro, or you accept the side effects of Lexapro because there is a lot of effects, including a factor libido and everything. But if you weigh Lexapro acts and how you feel, it's kind of interstandardized. You cannot control psychedelics, as you're saying. You cannot. There are like lots of like people in science sometimes. They say, the experience is not necessary, it's just a chemical compound. You have so many branches in this kind of people in psychedelic science. But psychedelics, you cannot control. And the same way that you cannot control like a paw like. let's some studies say that if you have a positive experience, it's better for like in in in in in sometimes in like PTST case. You know, if you have like a traumatic experience, a horrible trip, it can actually make things worse. some studies suggest. Some people would say, maybe you know, like indigenous people and people in religion would say, no. If you saw that, you have to see that. You know, there are different ways Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: of understanding the experience. But also there is the chance and I had this this this experience many times that just the experience that you have, it's What do I do with this? You know, like to put all your eggs in one single basket in one single experience is a lot. You know, sometimes you have experience that are absolutely profound, but sometimes it's like, okay, you know, fine. Andrew Heacock: Right. what if that's the one? Like what if that's your one that you get in this therapy? And it's kind of like, ho hum. Larissa Carneiro: Exactly, exactly. So maybe it is it's a different also like for example in churches they they have like like Santo Daimy, usually they call work, like the ceremonies, like and this comes pretty much from both indigenous way of understanding like these rituals and African religions that are also indigenous from Africa. religion is not something that exists outside. You know, it's not said religion and profane, everything. So actually, religious, what we call religion is actually the work they do. You know, that is the work. The rest is just ordinary life that you have to do to be alive. so this church of Santo Daim has usually every two weeks works. So we are taking ayahuasca every two weeks. So for example. There are lots of studies of of DMT for suicidal thoughts. And there is a very interesting study in the University of Federal University of Rio Grande do Norte, a state in Brazil, very good university, and they have excellent research with DMT, including not just with ayahuasca, but with a substance that's called jurema. Well, they use like with a small population still with suicidal thoughts. And it's like you take jurema, it usually is inhale. You know, like they have like an inhaler, like for asthma, and you use like the ground as well. It is like also an ordinary kind of bush. You inhale, don't have armeen, it's just like powerful DMT, and you have this kind of 20 minutes, which is great for therapeutic environment, for medical environment, because then you're gone, you good to go. And you have this strong experience and the graphics are amazing, you know. They are using in people resistant to medicine, the the traditional medicine for mental illness, and people who are really, really, really depressed. So the suicidal thoughts is like the curve is like this. It really drops. Andrew Heacock: Yeah. That that's brilliant. For that, for like for like acute suicidality, it's an immediate intervention. Yeah. If that works, that's a big deal. Larissa Carneiro: Yes. And then then look at it. You start to have again. You know, three weeks, pick again. Well, give another one. What's the problem? You know, give if you have a medical system that allows that, why not? You know, some people you're gonna take like duoxetine, fluoxetine every day. Why not to take like a section of jurema in a very safe control environment with your whatever? You know, some people prefer that environment. We cannot ignore these people to not everybody was made to go to the jungle. You know, my mom. My mom is my paradigm. Would my mom do that? No. Would she try psilocybin if it was good for her? Absolutely yes. But my mom would wanna try psilocybin with a blood pressure measure here, taking her blood every five minutes to see if she was good and alive, and a med physician say, You are gonna survive. You are not gonna die. My mom needs this, that's her ritual. Andrew Heacock: Right. Yeah. Well, it's also for that with that kind of medicine, it's the anxiety is a big part managing that. So like at being somewhere where you're comfortable. And you're right. Some people are just not going to the Amazon. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Larissa Carneiro: Yes. No, no, don't go there. Don't go there. If you're gonna lose it, baby, because there is no way back, right? When you take the train, you know, Andrew Heacock: Right. Right. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: my god, you can put your feet on the put their feet on the grass, lay down, whatever. You know, people Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: come with tobacco. You know, sometimes it helps, Andrew Heacock: Ha ha. Larissa Carneiro: sometimes it doesn't. You know, you you can do But you know, for someone that is ex anxious as my mommy is like it is like no. You need like a physician, a nurse, a psychiatrist, a psychologist with her. but this these substances are are are kind of hard. And maybe, maybe we need more conversation and more doses. I don't know. You know, the church of Saint Dime is a completely different protocol. You take constantly. You know, I don't know if it's healing depression or it's very successful in alcohol abuse. And crack Andrew Heacock: Santo Dame. Larissa Carneiro: yeah, and crack cocaine, which is common in Brazil. In Brazil, we don't have like methamphetamine, we don't have heroin. Our problem problem, like like the biggest problem in drugs is crack cocaine and alcohol. it's very good. Very, very good. Very, very good. You know, you create almost like Ugh with alcohol. Ugh. Andrew Heacock: Yeah. You're disgusted by it. Yeah, yeah. I I I I'm Larissa Carneiro: you know Andrew Heacock: a recovered alcoholic. I haven't had alcohol in. Larissa Carneiro: congratulations, congratulations Andrew Heacock: And thank you. Thank you very much. And honestly, it's not that hard because when I look at it, I'm like, ugh, like, you know, when I say, you know, see people, Larissa Carneiro: Yeah, you're right. Andrew Heacock: I mean, really, it's because it also used to make me sick my stomach a lot. So it's just like I'm just like, ugh, like, you know, it's just I don't miss it. I didn't really miss it when I was on it, to be honest with you. I just couldn't come off. Like that's the way it works. You know, but you know, and and psychedelics Larissa Carneiro: It is exactly. Andrew Heacock: didn't help me come off of it or anything, but it's just still when I look at it, I'm like, ugh. And that's the best way to to get over an addiction is to be disgusted. By the thing that you used to be addicted to. It really is a great Larissa Carneiro: Yes, is it? Andrew Heacock: way to do it. or cigarette smoking too, I've heard also. It's like the logic of it just no longer makes any sense to me. I'm like, it doesn't even make you feel good. What the hell? This is the worst drug ever. Like it, you know, it's just like it only makes you addicted and poor. You know, and yeah. So it I could see how that and and something daime, you said they're using it constantly. Like how often like every two weeks you said they and that's just Larissa Carneiro: Every two weeks. Sometimes, like for example, okay. Like if you go to the older generation, because it's an older church, you you would be surprised. People sometimes, when I show my students like videos and everything, they think that they're gonna see a bunch of people. Yeah, you know, like no, no, no, no, no, no. It's very rigid, Andrew Heacock: Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: very strict, and many elderly people, okay, and they are the anchor, and they are the one who when you are like my god, I'm losing, I'm losing. You look at the first road row, you know, first line, and you see those people 80, 85, 90, 100 years old holding up. You say, I am such a lame person, let me hold my shit. It is the part of the dynamic. And like the older generation, especially the women, they microdraws all the time. You know, like the in i i visit i interview these all elderly women adorable and the women don't die okay men they they continue to die the women they transform they they become trees it's amazing the longevity of the women population in cell do mapia in the amazon is so high another thing that is not not study and the older generation not the young generation but the older older generation the women that are 92 95 That founded Celluma Pia, they take one tablespoon three AM Talking about syncretism, maybe our time Andrew Heacock: Interesting. Larissa Carneiro: is gone, so let's finish in syncretism and they pray the whole rosary. Every day 3 a.m. In European tradition, 3 a.m. is the witchy hour. Going back again to Harry Potter. Yeah, Micho. Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. I'm getting chills. Yeah. Yeah. When you said 3 a.m., I was like, whoa. Larissa Carneiro: Yeah, they wake up, take one tablespoon. Although they take dime for everything. Okay, they take dime for everything. Everything. you have to build something. Take dime. you're gonna do that. Take dime. Dime is such a part of the lifestyle. But like work, traditional work at least every two weeks. So they take their three, two, four doses of daimy. But the women lock and and they microdose when you are, for example, pregnant as well. Like indigenous people, you know, like it's good for pregnancy. So people ask me, well, when people started to take daimy in the church of Dundai when when they're in the womb. You know, it is Because they believe that is very good for childbirth and then for lactation. So they are always macadrose. And these older women, they wake up three AM, take a tablespoon of dime, and then they pray the rosary. They are clear-minded, you know, sharp. I went to sell do Mapia for the celebration of hundred years old, hundred-year anniversary of Madrinha Rita, one of the wife of Padrinho Sebastian. She passed away now at the age of hundred years. But like hundred years, it's not it's not rare to find in the Church of Santa Dime, people that old, women that old. And they are taking time all the time. So I don't know. I don't know. It is the experience one that transformed their lives, or is the kind of maintenance? You know? Always trying to find something else. Yeah. Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Daily maintenance of their spiritual condition. Yeah. Yeah. so I have, if I, if I can, I have one more question I want to ask before you go. Do you have time? Larissa Carneiro: Yes, of course. Andrew Heacock: I've heard many times people say that the medicine ayahuasca, they'll refer to it as the mother or the grandmother, and that they see it as like a maternal deity, a maternal figure. And it just came to me when you're talking about them praying the rosary, which is you know essentially also a you know a Marian ritual. Is that is the idea that this medicine is a female maternal deity, is that ubiquitous in the Amazon? And what do you make of that? I mean, is that something that people are just experiencing in Larissa Carneiro: I don't know if it's ubiquitous. I don't think so. I Andrew Heacock: Okay. Okay. Larissa Carneiro: I think it is like in Santo Daimy, although it is like they they call themselves and they use like suits that they call Farda. Farda is actually a military uniform. And they consider themselves the army of the queen. The queen's army. And the queen is the queen of the forest, is our Lady of Immaculate Conception. But Daimy has something that's very interesting. Português is a language that you have gender for everything. Right? It's uma blusa. The blouse it is like feminine. So you have the hair is o cabelo, it's masculine. So they see daime as the perfect concoction of both gender. Because divine they call Jagubi, is the king, is the male. And rainha. Is the Cicotrid Viridis? Is the queen? Is the female. So they see Daimy as the perfect concussion because it merges both genders. And actually in the church of Santa Daimy, you split gender in the ceremonies. One side of it's like always it becomes like a mandala. And they call mandala. Look at the syncretism as well. They call mandala. Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: Mandala, they call the living mandala. One side. Of the the church is made is composed of men, young single men, married men, married women, young single women in a mandala moving together in a very, very coordinated, mechanical way, you know, and singing the hymns non-stop. They believe that you cannot change this balance of gender. Of course, historically, when I go back to the Amazon, Mestre Rinel, a land without law, was actually a way of keeping the morality you know in place and safety for women to keep men and women separate. And you cannot go, you cannot cross. If I go to the bathroom, I cannot walk in the mails. section I have to go through the women's section okay like it's very separate split you don't cross the other gender so I understand there was like cultural reasons for that Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: you know to protect women everybody's under the effect of a very powerful influence drug and you know could have like I don't know sexual assault you know sexual harassment And then you kept, but now the belief is two different forces, you know, and you have to keep the balance of the masculine and the feminine because ayahuasca is the feminine and the masculine. This, I think it is like more so sometimes people describe a voice that's female. Sometimes people describe a voice that is male. I think. in contemporary use ayahuasca, it's way more prominent to understand ayahuasca as the mother. As I said, even the Daimy, it is our Lady of Immaculate Conception that you, you know, are devout, is the mother. It is because like ayahuasca sometimes can have this admonishing voice, right? Yes. Andrew Heacock: Admonishing. Yeah. Like a harsh grandmother voice. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: Yeah, yay. Watch your doing that. You know, and also at the same time, hey. Come here. I am saying that because I love you, right? It is a very female voice. But in indigenous traditional use, I don't think that we have information about that. You know, like if it is like, Andrew Heacock: We just don't know. Larissa Carneiro: yeah, we don't know. As I said, we don't know. You know, it could be in some people, but may I don't know. You know, we there are some kind of narratives that ayahuasca was also used for warfare. You know. Peyote was used for warfare and it makes sense because you take ayahuasca, you can stay 14 hours without drinking and eating, and your senses are heightened. So it's perfect for warfare. You know, if you're talking about in in a moment that lots of nations were like, you know, fighting each other, my god, take this substance here. I'm gonna see better and I don't need water and food, and I'm gonna Andrew Heacock: And you can ex you can accept death too. Larissa Carneiro: Yeah, exactly. That's I'm gonna I'm gonna add this element. You know, you can accept exactly you are Andrew Heacock: Yeah. Yeah. Larissa Carneiro: you are fearless. You you know exactly. You know, death doesn't matter. Not at all. Andrew Heacock: Yeah. Right. It's just you're just crossing over into something different. And I I could see that being a kind of ask a kind of idea that you would want to have. Larissa Carneiro: Yeah. But I I but yes, in the Santa female voice it's very important. How do they believe in this gender? Andrew Heacock: Interesting the union of the two plants is a masculine and feminine. That's that's beautiful. That's a Larissa Carneiro: Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Heacock: I think that's a wonderful thing for us to to conclude this conversation on, although I don't want to conclude it now. I've had the the best time talking with you. we'll just have to do Larissa Carneiro: thank you so much. Andrew Heacock: we'll just have to do this again, I hope. Larissa Carneiro: Yes. Andrew Heacock: I've really, really enjoyed it. is this the first podcast you've done? Okay, good. You're a pro. Larissa Carneiro: No, but actually is that is the first podcast about my research. I I I had a podcast about like because witchcraft and new paganism. Andrew Heacock: Mm-hmm. Larissa Carneiro: You know, I teach a class about that. I you know Harry Potter many Andrew Heacock: I bet see the thing is I tell people I'm like, the thing I'm really excited about is the syncretism in the Santaime Church and psychedelics, and I'm like, Larissa Carneiro: We can we can we can have a podcast only about Harry Potter, you know Andrew Heacock: We could. We could just do that. Well, maybe we'll have to do that if that's what the people want. People you can leave comments if you're still watching me at this point on my YouTube. Leave comments if you want to see more about Harry Potter. We might have Larissa back. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with everybody. And I've really enjoyed Larissa Carneiro: Yes, exactly, exactly. Thank you, thank you for the invitation. It's an honor. Andrew Heacock: it. Yeah. Thank you so much.