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Former President Thabo Mbeki appears at TRC · Drive with John Perlman

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  Speaker 1: You're with John Perlman on 702. 702 Drive, well, certainly
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  Speaker 1: an important and very interesting day at the Rampepe Commission
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  Speaker 1: of Inquiry. What they are looking at, also known as
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  Speaker 1: the TLC cases inquiry by many people, looking at the
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  Speaker 1: failure to prosecute certain crimes that would have flowed out
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  Speaker 1: of evidence given, but not to the satisfaction of the
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  Speaker 1: Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The guidelines at the TLC were very,
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  Speaker 1: very clear. about what would give you amnesty and what
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  Speaker 1: would not. Now, testifying today was former President Thabo Mbeki
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  Speaker 1: and to comment on what the president said and what
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  Speaker 1: questions might be asked when cross-examination of the former president
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  Speaker 1: takes place later this year. We're joined on 702 Drive
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  Speaker 1: by Dorothy Kalata, who is the chairperson of the Fort
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  Speaker 1: Kalata Foundation and also speaks on behalf of of the
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  Speaker 1: Talata Group. Ms. Talata, welcome, and thanks very much for
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  Speaker 1: giving us your time on 702 Drive. A strong theme
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  Speaker 1: that came out from the president, and I'm just picking
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  Speaker 1: out one of the quotes saying, the investigations and prosecutions
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  Speaker 1: did not require any interventions on the part of the
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  Speaker 1: national executive. Accordingly, the government assumed the NPA would act
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  Speaker 1: as requested by the TRC. What do you make of
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  Speaker 1: that argument and do you and those of you in
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  Speaker 1: the Talata group accept that as a reasonable response from
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  Speaker 1: the president to the questions that are being asked? Good
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  Speaker 1: afternoon to you.
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  Speaker 2: Good afternoon to you, John, and good afternoon to our
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  Speaker 2: listeners as well. You know, I can just state explicitly
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  Speaker 2: that we were not pleased by anything that the president
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  Speaker 2: had to say today. Not at all. I think amongst
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  Speaker 2: his responses is, I'm very sorry if it's going to
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  Speaker 2: sound cliche, but it's like a narcissistic tendency of him
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  Speaker 2: just wanting to guess like whatever it is that has
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  Speaker 2: happened yesterday. to us as the family members, and almost
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  Speaker 2: wanting us to forget about what we have experienced historically.
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  Speaker 2: It was all just about rescuing his image, rescuing the ANC. Obviously,
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  Speaker 2: he considers himself quite an executive member of the ANC.
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  Speaker 2: it's just about saving their reputation and what it is
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  Speaker 2: that they have tried to do under difficult circumstances. It's
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  Speaker 2: been a trend now within the competitor commission where blame
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  Speaker 2: is being shifted onto the NPA. And we have heard
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  Speaker 2: the testimonies of all the other individuals, very reputable individuals
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  Speaker 2: who have served within the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and
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  Speaker 2: who have also served the country in different levels and ranks. So, obviously,
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  Speaker 2: we were standing in awe for the very same reason
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  Speaker 2: that he keeps on protecting something that is very clear
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  Speaker 2: to us that this is just a defense. Look, we
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  Speaker 2: know that they have taken us to two different courts already.
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  Speaker 2: And when he started his testimony today, it was all
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  Speaker 2: about showing how Sisi Kampepe really was not the right
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  Speaker 2: person to have had to sit and chair this commission
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  Speaker 2: until she actually highlighted within his testimony a part which
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  Speaker 2: I felt was very important, where he spoke about individuals
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  Speaker 2: who have gotten amnesty and individuals who did not get amnesty.
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  Speaker 2: So she made that very, very clear with one little statement.
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  Speaker 1: So, Ms. Talat, if I can come in there. You're
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  Speaker 1: saying that the explanations offered by the former president are
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  Speaker 1: clearly not to your satisfaction or liking. There could be
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  Speaker 1: the argument that in our constitutional framework, these matters should
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  Speaker 1: be pursued by the NPA, and you're not accepting that either.
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  Speaker 1: What did the then president of the country and his
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  Speaker 1: successors fail to do that you believe they should have done?
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  Speaker 1: And I'm talking about in terms of specific actions.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I think that if one can just always
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  Speaker 2: go back to the other testimonies of the individuals who
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  Speaker 2: did come forth to the Kampepe Commission, they have made
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  Speaker 2: it clear the difficulties that they had with the prosecutions.
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  Speaker 2: They made it very, very clear. Today, he was speaking
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  Speaker 2: about ideal conditions and prospectively ideal things that the NPA
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  Speaker 2: should have done. And yes, I think in the first
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  Speaker 2: few years, those things were not done because those people's
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  Speaker 2: hands were literally tied by the decisions that were made
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  Speaker 2: prior to us crossing over. If anything, if anything, the
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  Speaker 2: crux of what President Thabo Mbeki was saying to me
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  Speaker 2: was in the last 10 minutes of his testimony, where
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  Speaker 2: he revisited speaking about peace and justice. it is very
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  Speaker 2: clear that they have had a preconceived concept of what
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  Speaker 2: justice was supposed to be like in our country. And
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  Speaker 2: for me, as I was sitting there, I couldn't help
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  Speaker 2: but think that this is just answering directly to the
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  Speaker 2: testimony of Lukanya Kalata and the other people who have
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  Speaker 2: given their testimonies before. Because what he emphasized upon was
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  Speaker 2: to say, we had an idea of what justice was
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  Speaker 2: supposed to be like. And to us, justice meant that
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  Speaker 2: we could not go and incarcerate F.W. de Klerk. I
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  Speaker 2: think it's interesting that he mentioned that specifically. And he
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  Speaker 2: said we then had to sit down and consider what
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  Speaker 2: process of justice would work. But he and his ANC
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  Speaker 2: team and his NP team during those processes of negotiation
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  Speaker 2: did not consult any of us the family members who
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  Speaker 2: are now seeking the justice that we have always wanted.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Dorothy. Talata joining us from the
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  Speaker 1: Fort Talata Foundation, where she is the chairperson. The work
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  Speaker 1: of the commission will continue 27 minutes past five.