Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #67: Interview with John Melville, VP Content Development and Operations, Accessible Media Inc.

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Remarkable World Commentary Episode #67: Interview with John Melville, VP Content Development and Operations, Accessible Media Inc. · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

• 0:13
  Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA,
• 0:19
  invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast,
• 0:22
  Remarkable World Commentary.
• 0:24
  Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
• 0:27
  insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
• 0:31
  Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
• 0:35
  especially kids with disabilities.
• 0:38
  Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach,
• 0:42
  dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
• 0:46
  law graduate, and podcast commentator.
• 0:49
  She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
• 0:53
  skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been
• 0:59
  internationally recognized for her work and roles,
• 1:02
  she just wants to make things better than possible.
• 1:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
• 1:15
  I am Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly
• 1:22
  through sound, touch and stubborn optimism.
• 1:26
  I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant,
• 1:30
  author, lifelong barrier buster also happens to be blind.
• 1:37
  You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010,
• 1:42
  I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites
• 1:48
  accessible to every Canadian, not just a sighted ones.
• 1:53
  And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act,
• 1:59
  with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law,
• 2:07
  and most recently, in June of 2022.
• 2:11
  I was greatly humbled.
• 2:13
  Humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to
• 2:20
  removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a
• 2:27
  pottery studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
• 2:33
  producing audio mysteries, or helping companies to make their gadgets
• 2:39
  talk back in plain language.
• 2:42
  Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into
• 2:49
  everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench Where
• 2:57
  policy meets, live experience and live experience sparks fresh ideas.
• 3:04
  Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
• 3:08
  let me shine a spotlight on today's Guest changemaker,
• 3:14
  whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to change and
• 3:20
  build. John Melville. I am pleased and delighted to welcome you to my Remarkable
• 3:26
  World Commentary podcast.
• 3:29
  John Melville: Thank you Donna, it's an honor to be with you today.
• 3:32
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We have known each other for a very long time and you have been my mentor,
• 3:38
  my friend, my advisor, and you have helped me to engage in many
• 3:45
  different aspects of accessibility and advocacy on the Accessible Media Inc program.
• 3:54
  So welcome again to you.
• 3:56
  John Melville: It's good to be here.
• 3:58
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So, John, I'd love to start at the beginning.
• 4:04
  And looking back on your studies in communications at Carleton and radio
• 4:12
  broadcasting at Humber, what first drew you into broadcasting?
• 4:19
  Broadcasting. And did you ever imagine that that path would one day intersect so
• 4:29
  deeply with accessibility?
• 4:32
  John Melville: Well, I'll answer the last part first, and then I'll explain how.
• 4:36
  And I know I did not expect it would intersect with accessibility and disability.
• 4:42
  I had a bit of a meandering start to my career as as when we're young,
• 4:48
  you know, we we're not really sure.
• 4:50
  So I went to Carleton and I started in the journalism program there,
• 4:54
  and I realized that I didn't.
• 4:57
  I wasn't really the type of person that wanted to follow politicians around with a
• 5:01
  notepad, which is kind of back then the way it was done.
• 5:05
  Right? Although it was very exciting to be in Ottawa because I am a bit of a political
• 5:10
  animal myself, so I was always really interested in politics.
• 5:14
  But I moved into Carlton's film program because I've always had a really great
• 5:19
  admiration for movies and movie directors.
• 5:23
  And, you know, I thought my career was going to be something related to film.
• 5:27
  And, you know, I was 19, 20 years old at the time.
• 5:32
  I graduated from Carlton with a BA.
• 5:35
  And then I proceeded to sort of take my gap year,
• 5:38
  which turned into about seven years.
• 5:41
  In that time, though I was you know, working on my own video production business.
• 5:47
  This is back in the 80s producing corporate videos.
• 5:52
  We did weddings, we had a disc jockey service.
• 5:55
  It was quite a quite a entrepreneurial phase for me.
• 5:59
  But I realised that, you know, having to buy all this equipment and refresh
• 6:03
  it and everything else was probably not sustainable.
• 6:06
  And I wasn't that kind of business guy.
• 6:08
  So I went back to Humber College in Toronto because I had always had a love of radio,
• 6:17
  particularly music radio.
• 6:18
  And I spent a year in their certificate program doing radio broadcasting.
• 6:24
  And this would be 1989, 1990 had some great teachers there.
• 6:31
  Learned all about the inner workings of radio and formats and production,
• 6:37
  writing, sales and got myself as an intern at Tele-media broadcasting,
• 6:44
  which was actually the rights holder for the Toronto Blue Jays radio.
• 6:50
  But at the time I got in there, I didn't realize that that was going to be
• 6:54
  anything to do with me because I was interested in music and music radio.
• 6:58
  I wanted to be a disc jockey, but I learned fairly quickly that the real
• 7:03
  job security in media is not necessarily in front of the microphone,
• 7:08
  but behind it. And I set my path into operations,
• 7:13
  which I really enjoyed all the sort of technical aspects and scheduling and all that
• 7:19
  kind of stuff. And where I was working was actually very sports intensive,
• 7:26
  so I was able to be around for the launch of the sports radio format in Toronto in,
• 7:33
  I think, 1991, which was the fan sports radio at the time.
• 7:37
  Met a lot of the people that are involved with sports broadcasting today that are very
• 7:43
  familiar household names.
• 7:44
  They were we were all kind of just young people at that time kind of trying something
• 7:49
  new And then after about five years of that, I joined the Score television network when
• 7:56
  they were launching in 1996.
• 7:59
  Spent four years there, and that's where I got my exposure to
• 8:03
  television production.
• 8:05
  And I spent. So I now have a hybrid kind of TV guy,
• 8:10
  radio guy which is a little bit unique.
• 8:14
  But I found the application of both to be very very good for me in terms of career
• 8:20
  fulfillment and also types of jobs that I was able to get.
• 8:25
  One of the highlights that I had in my career was in 2005,
• 8:30
  I was became part of the satellite radio launch in Canada with XM radio,
• 8:37
  which is now Sirius XM radio.
• 8:39
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
• 8:39
  John Melville: And we were the Canadian version of what is mainly a US broadcaster.
• 8:46
  And they have, you know, 150 channels of music and talk.
• 8:49
  We were producing 20 channels in Canada and we had to build studios and I was involved in
• 8:54
  that. I loved it. It was like old days of radio again that I'd learned about when I was
• 8:59
  at Humber, and I was there till 2011, and when I was actually,
• 9:07
  it was just before their merger.
• 9:09
  And my old boss from. Well, he's not an old guy,
• 9:13
  but he was my previous boss, I should say, who had worked with me at XM
• 9:18
  radio. Ross Davies former program director of Chum-fm.
• 9:24
  He had suggested that I might want to reach out because Army was actually looking for a
• 9:32
  director of production production, and he thought my skills might be worthwhile
• 9:38
  to them. So I reached out to the recruiter, and one thing led to another,
• 9:42
  as they say, and I ended up starting my career with Army.
• 9:49
  And that's what I'm saying.
• 9:50
  At the beginning, I had no idea at the time that my career would converge around
• 9:56
  accessibility and disability.
• 9:58
  But when I joined Army in 2011, everything made sense.
• 10:04
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's when we met shortly.
• 10:06
  John Melville: Actually, it was right at the very beginning because I was moving fairly quickly when I
• 10:11
  walked in the doors of Army they were looking actually,
• 10:15
  they had hired David Harrington a couple of years before me as their CEO.
• 10:20
  They had previously been known as tech TV, the Accessible Channel.
• 10:24
  Right. And David was brought in in 2009 when the Army TV channel was launched to
• 10:30
  basically, you know, modernize and reinvent this,
• 10:35
  this network, which was providing great service to people from the blind and
• 10:38
  partially sighted community through the audio channel Voiceprint.
• 10:43
  And now they had this new TV channel which was adding audio description to TV shows that
• 10:48
  they were buying. And essentially putting audio description on them.
• 10:53
  And the problem was that there weren't a lot of people that were in the organization at
• 10:58
  that time that knew a lot about how the broadcasting industry works.
• 11:04
  So David was brought in, and he and I had actually worked together at
• 11:07
  the school. It was coincidental that we ended up back in the same place.
• 11:11
  But David was my boss when I joined.
• 11:16
  He still is today. And it was really an opportunity for us to apply all the learning
• 11:23
  that we had had in our careers to that point in time to this new,
• 11:27
  emerging accessible channel and to reinvent Voiceprint,
• 11:34
  which at the time which became Ami audio into something that would become more relevant to
• 11:40
  the community that we're destined to serve.
• 11:45
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You were part of the team that launched Canada's first all sports talk station at the
• 11:54
  fan 500, and later helped build the Score television network from the ground up.
• 12:03
  So from my perspective as a blind sportsman, live coverage is all about sound and
• 12:12
  description. How did those early sports projects shape the way you think about making
• 12:22
  fast moving content understandable and and engaging for everyone?
• 12:29
  John Melville: Well, it's an interesting question.
• 12:31
  And when I was at Telemedia, they had the radio rights for the Toronto
• 12:36
  Maple Leafs and for the Toronto Blue Jays.
• 12:38
  So it was basically Leafs in winter, Blue Jays in summer,
• 12:42
  and there was a bit of overlap, but we figured that out.
• 12:46
  And essentially, as you know, baseball goes like every night during the
• 12:50
  season. And we had games running from beginning of March for spring training right
• 12:56
  through until. And at that time, the Jays were in the World Series in 91,
• 13:00
  90 or 92, 93. So we were we were doing this right up until the end of October.
• 13:06
  What I had found you know, there and became kind of ingrained into me as
• 13:12
  a lover of radio was the, the picture that was drawn.
• 13:16
  And I will say, and it will probably talk a little bit more about him in a,
• 13:20
  you know, as we go through this, that the Blue Jays radio at that time was it
• 13:25
  was Tom cheek and Jerry Howarth were the play by play guys.
• 13:28
  And they also did the color commentary.
• 13:31
  Right. So so if Tom is calling the ball game or the inning,
• 13:35
  you know, strikes and balls and, you know, line drives and the whole bit,
• 13:41
  Jerry is providing all the other description around that.
• 13:44
  So he is a wonderful day at the ballpark.
• 13:46
  You know, we've got the flags blowing off in right field and that ball that just flied out
• 13:54
  guy with a red hat in the seats over there is with his daughter.
• 13:58
  Caught the ball. It was kind of like that.
• 14:02
  And I know that a lot of people still listen to the baseball broadcast,
• 14:07
  but I do. Yeah, it really is kind of theater of the mind,
• 14:11
  right? You don't need to have the TV up in front of it.
• 14:15
  And it's an interesting little tidbit here is when Joe Carter hit the home run the famous
• 14:22
  home run, you know, touch em all, Joe.
• 14:24
  You'll never hit another home run like that.
• 14:27
  That was actually Tom's call on radio.
• 14:30
  But he writes to the Jays at that time were when they were in the playoffs were held by
• 14:36
  the Americans. I think it was CBS at that time.
• 14:39
  And what they did was they took for Canada.
• 14:43
  They took the when they clipped the highlight,
• 14:46
  they took Tom's radio call and put it with the TV clip because it was so much better.
• 14:52
  Okay. And that to me was something that through both the score and through the
• 14:59
  Telemedia stage with the Jays and the Leafs, that I really kind of got a handle on where
• 15:05
  radio, sound meets pictures, television and how the two really need to
• 15:13
  work together so that everybody can be included in the broadcast.
• 15:17
  And it's really what we kind of go on to do at Ami is filling in the the visuals with
• 15:24
  either sound like natural sound, like the sound of the bat hitting the ball.
• 15:29
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right.
• 15:30
  John Melville: Or description. So sports is a very good playing field,
• 15:34
  if I can use that analogy for the big picture in broadcasting as to making it accessible
• 15:41
  for everyone.
• 15:43
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. You've worked across so many corners of the industry.
• 15:50
  Telemedia CHUM Satellite Radio at X Canada and now at EMI.
• 16:01
  So when you look back over that journey, what were a couple of turning point moments
• 16:09
  that nudge you toward making accessibility a central part of your work,
• 16:17
  rather than just another box to tick?
• 16:22
  John Melville: Well, I sort of alluded to it a little bit already,
• 16:25
  and that is, you know, my unique experience being able to work in
• 16:28
  television and also in radio.
• 16:31
  And, you know, the, the, the, the visuals that we have on television.
• 16:38
  And I mentioned to you earlier that I originally got into film.
• 16:42
  You know, I was a big fan of, you know, great directors like Kubrick,
• 16:46
  Lumet, you know and the films from the 70s.
• 16:50
  I thought cinema was fantastic in that era when I was growing up.
• 16:56
  And for me, that a couple of turning points was definitely you know,
• 17:01
  being having the honor and privilege of being able to work as an engineer alongside Jerry
• 17:07
  Howarth. You know, when I realized that my music career as a disc jockey wasn't really
• 17:13
  going to happen because I'd landed in a sports network.
• 17:16
  Right. I would call that a turning point, you know?
• 17:19
  And had that not happened to me, I would never have got the exposure that I
• 17:25
  got that would set me up later life.
• 17:28
  To understand how audio and pictures need to work together to deliver the full package,
• 17:35
  and not just to people who are blind and partially sighted.
• 17:38
  The whole point is that it's something that everybody can benefit from.
• 17:41
  You know, even if you can see what's going on on the field,
• 17:44
  there's so much more information that you're going to get through the audio presentation
• 17:48
  as well. You know, it's almost like you have two tracks,
• 17:52
  you have visuals and you have audio.
• 17:53
  And what we do with audio, especially in things like baseball,
• 17:57
  is really make that, you know, something that connects people and gives the
• 18:02
  full picture. So the pictures become secondary.
• 18:05
  So that would be the one turning point. The other turning point was I was spent a bit of
• 18:11
  time at CHUM. We tried to launch another sports network with CHUM back in 2001.
• 18:17
  Some people might remember the Team Sports Radio Network.
• 18:20
  It didn't last very long and we all got laid off.
• 18:23
  But that's another story.
• 18:24
  It happens. And I went to work with John Bitove company who at that time he was owner
• 18:34
  of Prism brands, which was KFC, Taco Bell and Pizza Hut and my my former
• 18:41
  boss, who I tended to travel around with a bit from job to job.
• 18:45
  Paul Williams had brought me along with him to prison,
• 18:50
  and we were at that time, we were working on things like digital
• 18:52
  signage, and I was so far away from my first love of media that it was like,
• 18:56
  oh my goodness, will I ever get back.
• 18:58
  And fate took a turn there, and it just so happened that John Bitove was
• 19:02
  also one of the applicants for the XM radio license,
• 19:07
  which was granted in 2005.
• 19:09
  And so when he realized that Paul and I were radio guys working in his organization,
• 19:14
  he was like, okay, well, you need to go over here and work with the
• 19:17
  radio launch. So that was another turning point.
• 19:21
  And in spite of the fact that I love to work in visual and television and film I always
• 19:27
  seem to end up gravitating back to radio.
• 19:29
  So. And I would say that the years I spent with XM were some of the best career years I
• 19:34
  had so an unexpected turning point.
• 19:36
  You know, just sometimes you get into something,
• 19:38
  you wonder if is this the right thing for me? And it all changed.
• 19:41
  And through a piece of fate, I was back in radio and launching again
• 19:46
  something that was still around today and is very special.
• 19:52
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, before you joined Army Accessible Media Inc Army was often treated as a
• 20:02
  niche service. But when you first walk through the doors at Army,
• 20:09
  what did you see that made you think we can build something truly different here.
• 20:17
  And how did you start turning that vision into a concrete strategy?
• 20:26
  John Melville: Well, I have to say that it was a shared vision through Army's board of directors at
• 20:33
  that time who realized that they had something special with the two licenses for
• 20:38
  television and for for my audio voiceprint.
• 20:42
  It was also when they brought my my current boss,
• 20:46
  David Errington, on board.
• 20:48
  And he was able to take that vision that the board had and essentially consolidate the
• 20:55
  brand. Right. Because they had TAC TV, they had voiceprint.
• 21:00
  And there was a bit of a, yeah, a marketing push required to basically
• 21:05
  say, you know, we are the accessible channel and we are accessible in audio and in
• 21:11
  television and in description.
• 21:14
  So that was kind of what was put in front of me when I joined the organization,
• 21:18
  how that was the goal.
• 21:20
  You know, we we need to consolidate this brand and make it a player in Canadian media,
• 21:26
  meaning that it's not so niche that nobody's ever going to hear about it.
• 21:31
  You really have to make a conscious attempt to the old term in boxing.
• 21:36
  Punch above your weight.
• 21:39
  Because if we just sit back and continue doing.
• 21:42
  You know, reading newspapers and magazines or just putting description onto old content.
• 21:48
  That's a very limited trajectory in terms of,
• 21:51
  you know, growth and where the where the network is going to go.
• 21:55
  What I realized when I came into the organization was,
• 22:00
  you know, the opportunity and I, you know, there was a slogan that TAC TV used
• 22:05
  to use before it was MTV was television.
• 22:10
  That includes everyone.
• 22:12
  And I always liked that because for me, that was kind of.
• 22:15
  Well, there's the mission statement right there.
• 22:18
  You mentioned Niche channel, right?
• 22:21
  Yes. And what what niche kind of says to me is like,
• 22:26
  it's a specialty. It's like for people that only want this type of content.
• 22:30
  And you could say that about Army.
• 22:32
  You could say it's just about description or it's just about reading newspapers.
• 22:36
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Right.
• 22:36
  John Melville: Right. But for us, it was like, what we want to do is make this something
• 22:41
  that is relevant to everyone, relevant to people from the disability
• 22:44
  community, relevant to their families, relevant to people who have an understanding
• 22:51
  or want to have an understanding of what goes on in the disability community,
• 22:55
  what it is like to have a disability and be working in a barrier,
• 23:01
  you know, not barrier free.
• 23:03
  I know that you're involved in that. But, you know,
• 23:05
  certainly at that time, new legislation coming out with respect to
• 23:10
  the Accessibility Act, with building codes, you know,
• 23:14
  the the awareness of all that was something that I think that am I tried to build into
• 23:20
  its DNA so that because we're distributed right across Canada into every home that has
• 23:27
  basic cable We wanted to make sure that we were reaching audiences that were listening
• 23:35
  or wanted to listen to what we had to say.
• 23:38
  And it wasn't that we were telling people what to do or what to say.
• 23:42
  We were looking for creators and people who are involved in advocacy.
• 23:48
  And I think that's how you and I met who have a platform to tell their story.
• 23:54
  Right. And but the Army entity is something I think it is.
• 23:59
  It's television that includes everyone.
• 24:02
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, and I I'm listening to you here, boy.
• 24:05
  I really feel as if I've traveled a long road with you since 2011,
• 24:11
  and I'm very pleased and privileged to have been part of this journey,
• 24:16
  you know.
• 24:17
  John Melville: But it's been a thrill.
• 24:18
  Yeah. Remember when we had the the the governor general?
• 24:25
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yes.
• 24:25
  John Melville: In the debates? Yes, there were some high points there.
• 24:28
  Yeah.
• 24:29
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I mean, we've been involved in so many different aspects,
• 24:32
  you know, like live in studio, how it works,
• 24:37
  all these different things. And I, I learned a lot.
• 24:40
  I learned a lot under your tutelage and with your team,
• 24:43
  you know.
• 24:44
  John Melville: Yes.
• 24:46
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So MIT is now recognized as the first network,
• 24:52
  as the first network in the world to offer all of its programming with open described
• 24:59
  video as a blind viewer.
• 25:03
  This is huge. So can you walk us through the thinking and the risks behind that decision
• 25:13
  and what it took operationally to make open description the default instead of a special
• 25:22
  feature?
• 25:24
  John Melville: Sure. That's a big question.
• 25:26
  I'll try and and slice it down a bit because there's a lot in it.
• 25:29
  But just to give it some focus, I would start by saying that it the genesis
• 25:35
  of the the channel came from the Broadcasting Act.
• 25:39
  There's the clause in the Broadcasting Act nine,
• 25:42
  one clause. And I think it's 91HH now they've added another h.
• 25:47
  Yes. That said, you know, channels will be given or applicant channels
• 25:54
  will be given carriage across Canada through mandatory subscriber fees that will be
• 26:01
  collected by the cable companies.
• 26:04
  And those channels have to demonstrate they are of exceptional importance to the Canadian
• 26:09
  public. And there's a couple of obvious examples that are also 91H along with Ami.
• 26:18
  It was for example, APTN.
• 26:20
  Right. So we don't necessarily know where indigenous people in Canada live.
• 26:26
  We don't know where people who are blind and partially sighted live in Canada.
• 26:30
  In other words, you know, you could be anywhere.
• 26:33
  You could be in the Yukon, you could be in Quebec,
• 26:35
  you could be in Vancouver Island.
• 26:39
  So the only way to reach you, according to Parliament,
• 26:42
  is that the channel has to be available to everyone on the basic tier,
• 26:46
  right? So our board prior to Ami launching looked at this channel of exceptional
• 26:51
  importance. And one of our members, I believe,
• 26:54
  was Betty Noble was.
• 26:56
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Part of the.
• 26:57
  John Melville: Original launch team. This would be probably around 2006.
• 27:02
  Said, well, we should apply for a license because what we want to be able to do,
• 27:08
  because regular television is not offering description.
• 27:11
  They're not offering DV.
• 27:13
  Yeah. Yes. As you pointed out what little DV there was,
• 27:17
  you know, that you could find had to be turned on using this complicated menu system
• 27:23
  on your.
• 27:23
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh yeah.
• 27:24
  John Melville: Yeah. Right. So their approach was if we put DV on everything that we have will,
• 27:32
  you know, and just say to say to the CRTC we're not we're going to put it right onto
• 27:37
  the programs. We're not going to make people have to turn it on or off.
• 27:42
  So I suppose if you don't like DV, the downside is if you're watching Ami
• 27:46
  content, you're always going to have description.
• 27:50
  Because it's available all the time.
• 27:53
  So it wasn't that difficult from a production point of view to put it on.
• 27:57
  Right. Because we were essentially bypassing the system that said,
• 28:01
  you know, it's got to go in this menu on this line and all this kind of stuff.
• 28:05
  So that was relatively straightforward. I mean, we did have to write and voice all the
• 28:10
  description for the shows because anything we were buying we had to describe for the first
• 28:15
  time, that was part of Crtc's condition of licence for us at the time.
• 28:20
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Right.
• 28:21
  John Melville: And the CRTC will, when they give you a license,
• 28:23
  will add conditions that say, you know, you have to spend X number of
• 28:28
  dollars on Canadian content production.
• 28:31
  You have to ensure that, you know, everything is openly described.
• 28:35
  And by meeting those conditions, you are now classified as A91 channel,
• 28:42
  which is going to get distribution throughout the basic tier.
• 28:46
  And thus your funding formula comes in in the form of I think it was $0.10 per subscriber
• 28:53
  which is part of the sub fee that they collect on the monthly cable bills.
• 28:57
  Right. So we would get that $0.10.
• 28:59
  And that gave us our production budget to buy the content,
• 29:03
  to produce the DV and run any of our administration side of things.
• 29:09
  Obviously, you know, we have master control, we have employees.
• 29:12
  You know, there's a there's a structure in there as well that makes all this stuff
• 29:16
  happen. So the technical aspect was actually quite straightforward.
• 29:21
  We've since evolved a bit.
• 29:23
  So we we looked at it and we started to say, you know,
• 29:27
  sometimes the DV isn't that great or it's a bit redundant on a show,
• 29:33
  meaning.
• 29:35
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's.
• 29:35
  John Melville: Almost fighting with the dialogue.
• 29:38
  Right? There's not great places to put it in.
• 29:41
  So I think it was around 2013 that we started to experiment with integrated described
• 29:47
  video, which is essentially when we write the show,
• 29:53
  and this tends to be more for the original content that we now create,
• 29:57
  as opposed to the content we would buy.
• 29:59
  Because once you buy content, it's already made, so you can only put
• 30:02
  description on it.
• 30:03
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
• 30:04
  John Melville: For stuff that you're actually making for the first time,
• 30:06
  you can actually write the program in a way that the person who's presenting is able to
• 30:14
  describe as they're presenting.
• 30:15
  So you don't need to have that second voice involved.
• 30:19
  So it wasn't that difficult to do it.
• 30:21
  And it's probably more difficult to turn it off now because all of our content has DV or
• 30:28
  DV in it. And, you know, I think that's a good thing.
• 30:31
  We've had a couple of shows that have aired on CBC with ITV.
• 30:36
  One of them being you can't ask that.
• 30:38
  That was all produced with ITV and the CRTC recognized when we developed ITV that this
• 30:45
  was a form of open description.
• 30:47
  So it's something that we've been working with and,
• 30:51
  you know, we will put description on when we feel it's necessary.
• 30:55
  And we're always evaluating the content that we produce to make sure that it's accessible
• 31:00
  to a blind or partially sighted person.
• 31:03
  And that is done in a way where our DV specialists will look at the content,
• 31:10
  meaning they'll listen to it twice without any pictures that they are understanding
• 31:17
  everything that's going on.
• 31:20
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This is so technical. I mean, it's so in-depth.
• 31:23
  You know. One of the projects many of us remember is Amis
• 31:32
  described broadcasts of the Toronto Blue Jays games as someone who grew up listening to
• 31:42
  sports on the radio. I'm fascinated by the blend of play by play and description.
• 31:52
  So how did that partnership come together, and what did you learn from trying to make
• 31:59
  live, professional sports fully accessible for fans with vision loss?
• 32:08
  John Melville: So we I mentioned that you know, both David and I had been working with the
• 32:15
  Blue Jays at. I was working with them at Telemedia,
• 32:19
  and then I worked with them with David at The Score,
• 32:21
  because the score also had rights to Blue Jays radio after Telemedia let,
• 32:27
  let them go. So we both had the opportunity to work with it,
• 32:30
  and we both worked with Tom cheek and Jerry Howarth in the radio divisions.
• 32:35
  When we both arrived at EMI we were talking about,
• 32:39
  you know the opportunity to take a weekend broadcast of the Blue Jays,
• 32:46
  say, a Saturday afternoon.
• 32:48
  And let's try adding description, live description to it.
• 32:52
  We'd done some live description already with the royal wedding.
• 32:57
  Prince William and Kate Middleton.
• 32:59
  Yeah, we were the first to do that, even ahead of BBC,
• 33:03
  who actually were the host broadcaster of that.
• 33:06
  But we thought, you know, live description.
• 33:08
  Well, what can we add to it? Essentially it was the missing piece that,
• 33:12
  you know, I mentioned earlier that we we had,
• 33:15
  you know, a radio clip running with the TV highlights when you hear the Joe Carter call.
• 33:21
  Yeah. But we looked at the Jays and said if we were to add a third voice,
• 33:25
  so we've got the play by play person, we've got the color person.
• 33:29
  What if we add a third voice in there who can,
• 33:33
  you know, fill in any blanks that are still taking place because people are there
• 33:39
  watching the TV. They're not listening to the radio in this case.
• 33:43
  So we approached Sportsnet and we made a deal with Sportsnet to acquire the games from
• 33:49
  them. And we literally had a describer who would sit and watch the game as the play by
• 33:58
  play team for Sportsnet were calling it, and anything that was missed would be added
• 34:05
  in by the describer. And these describers were sports broadcasters too.
• 34:10
  We had Sam Cosentino was involved in it.
• 34:14
  People may know him from his junior hockey on Sportsnet Jim Van Horne.
• 34:20
  One of the TSN originals and Jim has since gone on to work with NBC on describing the
• 34:28
  Olympic Games when they had the rights.
• 34:32
  So that was kind of how it all came about.
• 34:35
  And we did that for a few years.
• 34:37
  It was actually it was it was an interesting sort of time for us where we were trying
• 34:41
  different things, and it was well received by the blind and partially sighted community who
• 34:48
  were watching those games.
• 34:49
  You know, but the problem that we it's not sustainable because unless Sportsnet makes a
• 34:57
  a product that's more descriptive, it's too expensive for us to be doing that,
• 35:03
  you know, for 162 games of the year.
• 35:06
  So we did it. And I think Sportsnet have, you know,
• 35:10
  picked up a few tips from the times when we did that to potentially make those games.
• 35:15
  I think Dan and Buck do a great job now of, you know,
• 35:18
  doing the play by play and full description probably better than it was back then when we
• 35:23
  started doing the DV for the Jays.
• 35:28
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The series you can't ask that invites people with disabilities to answer the uncomfortable
• 35:37
  questions others often think but never say aloud.
• 35:43
  So from your seat, why was it important for Army to bring that format to Canadian
• 35:53
  audiences, and how do you see it helping to dismantle this terror,
• 36:00
  the stereotypes and artificial barriers that so many of us face all the time.
• 36:12
  John Melville: The So a lot of the shows that come to us come from producers who are working with
• 36:18
  creators and have developed an idea.
• 36:22
  Right. So this producer came from Edmonton.
• 36:25
  This idea actually came through CBC originally.
• 36:29
  And the producer had pitched CBC on the idea and CBC were were the original producer or
• 36:36
  broadcaster for that show, and they did two seasons of that,
• 36:40
  and they offered us to come in with them on that.
• 36:43
  So this happens sometimes where we get collaboration on it.
• 36:47
  And I think it was interesting because CBC, being a mainstream broadcaster for all
• 36:53
  Canadians as well recognized to the points you were making about the tone of the show
• 36:58
  that, you know, this maybe does make people feel uncomfortable,
• 37:02
  but the it's okay to ask these questions, right?
• 37:06
  It's okay to hear the answers to those questions.
• 37:10
  We we did three seasons all together on that show,
• 37:13
  and it was just a very popular format.
• 37:16
  I think it sort of broke the ice for people and let people know that it was okay to have,
• 37:24
  you know, a conversation with somebody with a disability like you.
• 37:27
  You know, if you're curious you can ask questions,
• 37:32
  right? And there's a lot of sort of predetermined sort of thought processes that
• 37:39
  people have, you know, where it leads.
• 37:41
  We call it prejudice, right? Where it leads to.
• 37:44
  You know, I've already figured out the answer,
• 37:46
  even without asking the person.
• 37:48
  Right. And that's kind of what you can't ask that I think was able to sort of break down
• 37:55
  was, you know what? There's a different story from the perspective of the person with the
• 37:59
  disability, and maybe you need to hear it.
• 38:02
  And then when everybody hears it, they're kind of laughing and saying, oh, you
• 38:04
  know, it wasn't wasn't as bad as I thought, you know,
• 38:07
  and it's okay to to understand that because this is the way it is,
• 38:13
  right? So yeah, I think that was we do many different shows and,
• 38:18
  and they all have kind of a different angle, but that was one I think that a lot of people
• 38:24
  saw because it was also on CBC and it's still running today.
• 38:28
  It's going to be going up on our YouTube channel in the spring.
• 38:33
  So if you haven't seen it on my TV, we're going to be making all our content
• 38:37
  available on YouTube as well.
• 38:40
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. So the clock is starting to wind down.
• 38:45
  But I got this question for you.
• 38:47
  Access to technology is such a big part of independence for blind and partially sighted
• 38:57
  people with access to tech live, you have created a weekly space dedicated to
• 39:07
  accessible and mainstream tech.
• 39:11
  What gap did you see in the media landscape that this show was designed to fill,
• 39:19
  and how have viewers responded?
• 39:23
  So far?
• 39:26
  John Melville: The gap okay, so I think it was I'm just going to tell a little story here because it
• 39:31
  goes back to a discussion.
• 39:33
  I was over in Scotland at Rnib radio, and I met a gentleman there who was working
• 39:39
  on the Rnib morning show, and it was a bit like Ami Audio's you know,
• 39:44
  he they were reading newspapers and things like that.
• 39:46
  Right. And I'm like, this is interesting. So we just wanted to see how they did things.
• 39:51
  The gentleman Stephen Scott, who is probably well known to Ami listeners
• 39:55
  now you know, was very interested in technology.
• 40:00
  He was he is blind. He was partially sighted.
• 40:03
  But you know, I believe he still is partially sighted,
• 40:06
  but he has degenerative eye disease, so his sight is not improving at all.
• 40:12
  And Steven was is a big proponent.
• 40:16
  He's always the guy out there with the first iPhone. He's,
• 40:19
  you know, he's checking all the accessibility features.
• 40:22
  And I hooked him up with another producer that I've been working with for years,
• 40:28
  Marc Aflalo. And said, Marc, you should talk to Steven because Marc
• 40:32
  had a tech show running here.
• 40:34
  It was just a standard technology show radio show.
• 40:38
  And, you know, you should talk to Steven because I think there might be a fit here for
• 40:43
  us being able to focus the technology, show more on the technology,
• 40:48
  the the the ability for technology to assist people with disabilities.
• 40:53
  And many times a lot of that technology exists by accident.
• 40:58
  So something like Siri, for example, was not developed for people who
• 41:03
  are blind and partially sighted. It was developed for the general population, but it
• 41:06
  became much more valuable to people who are blind and partially sighted in its first
• 41:11
  iteration, because it was something that this is we've been waiting for something like
• 41:16
  this, right? But Apple didn't necessarily develop it for that reason.
• 41:21
  And what Steven was able to do was shine a light on technology that was really starting
• 41:26
  to break ground and with with the disability community.
• 41:30
  And I was over in Scotland at the Tech Share Europe,
• 41:34
  I believe it was in 2018, and we did a presentation on our live
• 41:41
  description, which I was talking about a little earlier. I was talking about the Blue
• 41:44
  Jays, and Stephen was there too.
• 41:48
  And what we noticed was all the big tech companies Google,
• 41:51
  Apple Panasonic. We're all there as well to learn about the needs of people who are blind
• 42:01
  and partially sighted. It was primarily around the people who need media assistance,
• 42:07
  and it generally is blind and partially sighted,
• 42:11
  and people who are deaf or hard of hearing that require most assistance with their media
• 42:16
  consumption. Right. Because you need to have captioning, you need to have ASL.
• 42:19
  You need to have description.
• 42:21
  You know, these are the tools that are required so that you can access that media.
• 42:26
  And so Stephen and Mark came to us with a show idea that we're going to do this weekly
• 42:32
  show. It started actually on Ami audio with Double Tap Canada which a lot of people are
• 42:38
  familiar with. And Double Tap is still running.
• 42:41
  Yes. And it's been going now for seven, eight years.
• 42:46
  That's more of a weekly kind of long form drop in.
• 42:49
  Let's talk about tech kind of show, but it's always about accessible tech and
• 42:53
  access. Tech live was kind of the video version of that,
• 42:56
  and we streamed it on YouTube and it was made available on the audio platform like a radio
• 43:01
  show. So the importance of technology is always something that's in the sort of bull's
• 43:07
  eye for Ami TV and Ami audio, because it is one of the most important
• 43:13
  pieces of assistance that somebody who is trying to consume media or trying to make a
• 43:18
  phone call or trying to type a text, the easier that that can be made for them is,
• 43:24
  you know, where we're evolving to now.
• 43:26
  And when you hear about the next things like you know,
• 43:30
  artificial intelligence, AI, you know, and things like that,
• 43:33
  it's an ongoing discussion.
• 43:35
  It's an ongoing story.
• 43:37
  And what Ami wants to do is put people with disabilities right at the front end of that
• 43:42
  technology so that they're the first to hear about it and how it can help them in their
• 43:46
  lives.
• 43:48
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is there any room for the good old.
• 43:50
  You know, when I first became involved with with ami and yourself,
• 43:54
  like, you know, I had the detective DJ series,
• 43:58
  is there any room for, you know, like good old storytelling shows on
• 44:02
  Army still, or are you going more toward technology and you know,
• 44:07
  the way you're going right now.
• 44:09
  John Melville: The way we're going right now is actually into larger productions on the TV side.
• 44:16
  What we're trying to do and the industry is, is is,
• 44:19
  you know, being incentivized to enable producers and broadcasters to kind of come
• 44:25
  together and produce really high impact shows.
• 44:29
  We want to expand audience.
• 44:31
  We want to expand our reach.
• 44:34
  We need to get outside our own ecosystem, unfortunately,
• 44:37
  because in spite of the fact that we're carried along,
• 44:40
  you know, all the cable channels in Canada, all the cable companies in Canada,
• 44:45
  there's only about 50% of Canadians, 60% of Canadians actually subscribe to cable
• 44:50
  now. And they generally are people who are of an older age,
• 44:54
  you know Gen Xers boomers, But millennials and Zoomers,
• 45:00
  you know, they're on, you know, YouTube, Instagram,
• 45:04
  Facebook streaming apps.
• 45:07
  The the whole industry has become much more diversified.
• 45:11
  So, as you know, you might not be able to watch a show.
• 45:15
  None of us can watch a show if you don't have a subscription to,
• 45:18
  you know, Paramount, right?
• 45:20
  And we just say, okay, well, I guess I'm not watching that show
• 45:22
  because I can't afford to pay $9 or $12 a month for that streaming app because I've
• 45:26
  already got Netflix. But Amazon, if I'm lucky and,
• 45:30
  you know, there's a dozen others out there.
• 45:33
  So what we're trying to do is create those high impact shows that are going to be able
• 45:38
  to be seen on, you know, apps or networks that are going to be easily
• 45:44
  accessible to people like CBC, you know like YouTube.
• 45:49
  The idea of our storytelling, though is, is not something that has gone
• 45:55
  away. In fact, we've been working a lot recently on the audio side,
• 46:01
  which has always been kind of the place where people who are blind and partially sighted
• 46:06
  can come to. Although we still do some reading on the channel,
• 46:10
  we have, you know, The Walrus, The Guardian the Globe Mail is read just as
• 46:16
  it was. That's part of what we've always said we would do.
• 46:20
  They also have a new show called reflections. They have the Ami audio book review.
• 46:25
  What we're trying to do is, I guess what you're doing here with this
• 46:28
  podcast is, you know, have somebody come on,
• 46:32
  who is able to talk about an issue or talk about something,
• 46:37
  you know, their career or something that they're doing.
• 46:40
  And so what you're doing with your podcast, I think is,
• 46:43
  is a classic example of kind of where things are going.
• 46:48
  The because of the technology now with book reading you know,
• 46:55
  in the last few years, it's come a long way.
• 46:57
  And now we have again AI getting involved in it.
• 47:01
  It's a way of, you know, there's more and more access to being able to
• 47:06
  read a book online. So the old form of radio drama,
• 47:10
  things like that, it's still a very niche piece right now,
• 47:14
  and it's probably something that would have success on YouTube,
• 47:19
  you know, because you, you stand on your own two feet on YouTube.
• 47:22
  You know, if it's something people want, they will watch it.
• 47:25
  Right. And I mean, you can still produce it and have 400 views.
• 47:30
  And if you're reaching that audience, that's great.
• 47:32
  But for us, we are definitely looking at sort of,
• 47:36
  you know, we're trying to invest the little bit of money we have into leveraging high
• 47:42
  impact productions so that we can continue to open these doors for a wider audience of
• 47:48
  people with disabilities.
• 47:52
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What are your final thoughts as we wind down this podcast.
• 47:56
  John, I know you've taken us through an immense journey,
• 47:59
  you know, from start to finish here.
• 48:02
  I mean, I've learned so much about, you know,
• 48:04
  who you are and what you've done in the past and you know,
• 48:08
  your your profile at the Army.
• 48:11
  What are your final thoughts as to what would the immediate future be for the next 3 to 5
• 48:18
  years at Army?
• 48:21
  John Melville: Well, I'll tag it on to what I was just saying about the High Impact productions.
• 48:26
  And one thing we didn't talk about.
• 48:28
  So I'm going to talk about it now in this last question,
• 48:31
  is the importance of incorporating people with disabilities into the creation of the
• 48:38
  content that Army produces.
• 48:40
  So I sit here with you now as I'm, you know,
• 48:44
  I'm not partially sighted, but I'm certainly my eyesight is not getting
• 48:48
  any better, but I'm certainly not identifying with somebody as somebody with a disability.
• 48:54
  And I think that's important that, you know,
• 48:56
  that we don't muddy that water too much because,
• 48:59
  you know, I think that it it can hurt others if you know,
• 49:04
  somebody coming forward with a disability and they're kind of like, oh, you know, I've got
• 49:08
  a disability. I'm not to tell you what it is. Right. Which is fair enough. But the
• 49:12
  importance of understanding the connection that we have with people with disabilities
• 49:16
  and, you know, their perception of being included in content.
• 49:21
  So we've been doing a lot of work with mentoring.
• 49:27
  We have an apprentice program in place at Ami.
• 49:31
  We've had three apprentices go through in the last two years.
• 49:35
  More than that, actually. But three of the apprentices that went through in the last
• 49:38
  three years have pitched program ideas to us two of which have already gone into
• 49:44
  production. One of his the show from Ottawa game on.
• 49:51
  Another one is adapting which is a new scripted show we're doing in BC,
• 49:57
  and we have a children's show in Saskatoon.
• 50:01
  Sorry. Regina called how we do, how we do it.
• 50:05
  Sorry. How we do it that's coming this fall.
• 50:09
  The the whole idea, though, is that people with disabilities,
• 50:14
  we are army. If we are anything now in the, you know,
• 50:19
  2025, 2026, we are the one place that can mentor and teach people who are
• 50:29
  interested in media, who want to have a career in media,
• 50:33
  either in front of the camera or behind the camera.
• 50:35
  In production and production management.
• 50:38
  We are the people that can do that.
• 50:40
  And companies like CBC, Bell, Rogers, you know Cogeco tell us who all
• 50:50
  do production when they are looking for people and productions that they are
• 50:55
  interested in making content around.
• 50:58
  You know, it's our hope that they can maybe have somebody that experienced army in that
• 51:04
  way, in that mentoring way, come through that door.
• 51:08
  And we've already seen it happen.
• 51:09
  We we've got a couple of people that have gone on to CDC and have had shows at CBC that
• 51:15
  worked at am I this is really, you know, where I see us going now and,
• 51:21
  and in relation to those high impact shows, the,
• 51:24
  the new one that I was talking about adapting,
• 51:27
  which we're producing in Vancouver the young lady who is the creator identifies with the
• 51:35
  disability from the blind, partially sighted community.
• 51:40
  You know, she has she has created something that we want to really do justice to.
• 51:46
  We and we have a great production company working with her to realize this production,
• 51:54
  and it's a significant cost.
• 51:56
  This, you know, we are I wouldn't say we're taking a gamble on it,
• 51:59
  because I think it's going to be a great show because everybody feels so positive about it.
• 52:04
  And we also produce something with Jenny Bovaird just recently,
• 52:08
  Pretty Blind, which was also a scripted.
• 52:10
  So taking some chances.
• 52:11
  But at the core of all our content, you are going to see people with disabilities
• 52:18
  in front of the camera and behind the camera and ultimately calling the shots.
• 52:22
  I mean, you know, if probably shouldn't say this,
• 52:26
  but it's true. You know, my goal is to be replaced by somebody who can
• 52:31
  better advocate for the disability community with the skills and experience that I that I
• 52:37
  have as well. You know, and that's what we hope to develop at Ami is
• 52:41
  people like that.
• 52:44
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: John, I'd like to thank you for this interview has been very,
• 52:47
  very insightful for me and I'm really impressed with what you've said.
• 52:52
  And I think the future looks bright for those who are aspiring to be in front of the camera
• 52:59
  and behind the camera.
• 53:00
  And you know, keep up the great work.
• 53:04
  Go am I go.
• 53:07
  John Melville: And, Donna, I just have to say as well, you know,
• 53:10
  you talked about you and I and how long we go back together.
• 53:13
  And here we are in 2025.
• 53:15
  And you have a podcast.
• 53:17
  I'm your guest. I do have to recognize, you know,
• 53:21
  you have been a stalwart figure in, you know,
• 53:26
  the the passion and due diligence to the, you know,
• 53:31
  what you do for the disability community and for people who are blind and partially
• 53:36
  sighted. And, you know if you weren't doing that,
• 53:40
  we probably wouldn't be talking today.
• 53:42
  So it it's a great honor, as I said at the outset,
• 53:45
  to to be with you. And I thank you for for reaching out to me because it's it's a
• 53:52
  pleasure to have a chat with you. And it's been a little while,
• 53:55
  but I always enjoy it.
• 53:58
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's been a pleasure. Come back anytime.
• 54:01
  If you ever think that you know you want to share something with our listeners,
• 54:04
  please do not hesitate to reach out to me.
• 54:07
  John Melville: I will do, and you the same.
• 54:09
  Okay. And listen, have a very safe and happy holiday season.
• 54:13
  However you may celebrate.
• 54:15
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you too.
• 54:16
  John Melville: Best wishes for 2026.
• 54:18
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: The same to you, John, and we will stay in touch.
• 54:21
  John Melville: You bet. Thanks, Donna.
• 54:23
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thanks, John. Take care.
• 54:24
  John Melville: Bye bye.
• 54:25
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye. Bye now.
• 54:29
  Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com.
• 54:35
  Until next time.