Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / The Friendship Skills Every Child Needs [with Michelle Mitchell]

Transcript

The Friendship Skills Every Child Needs [with Michelle Mitchell] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Happy Families podcast. Friendships probably
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: the biggest issue that we face when it comes to
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: our children and their well being, not always but often.
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  Speaker 1: In fact, if you talk to any school teacher, school leader, psychologist, counselor,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: they will tell you that the number one issue that
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: they're encountering when it comes to problems at school relates
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: to friendship issues, status, anxiety, school refusal so much if
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: it comes down to whether or not your child feels
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: like they be long. And it's not just at school,
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  Speaker 1: it's in the neighborhood. Maybe it's in your local church
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  Speaker 1: or community group or sports club, doesn't matter where it is.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: It could be with the cousins. How do we tackle
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: friendship issues today? On the podcast? Michelle Mitchell the author
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  Speaker 1: of the brand new, just released book All about Friends.
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  Speaker 1: It's called Friendship Smart, and we're going to get into
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: the nitty gritty of how we can save our kids'
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: friendships or even if we should try. Right after this,
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: stay with us. Hello and welcome to Happy Family this
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: podcast where you get real parenting solutions every single day.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: This is Australia's most download of parenting podcasts. Thank you
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: so much for joining me. Today's interview is one that
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: you absolutely must check in on. Why because relationships at
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: the heart of our children's well being, and unfortunately, too
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: many of our children are feeling lonely. They're struggling in friendships.
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  Speaker 1: They've got friendship anxiety, their friendships are blowing up, they
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  Speaker 1: don't know what to do about it. Social media is
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  Speaker 1: getting in the way. Oh, it's hard work. Friendship Smart
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  Speaker 1: is the brand new book has been out for a
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  Speaker 1: couple of weeks now from Michelle Mitchell, who is a
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  Speaker 1: wonderful friend of mine, but more than that, a really
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  Speaker 1: careful thinker when it comes to helping our children to
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  Speaker 1: develop well and thrive and flourish. Michelle, let's talk about
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: this book. I'm so excited for your book. Congratulations on it.
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  Speaker 1: Such an achievement. Oh my goodness. My first question for
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  Speaker 1: you is this, If friendships are the biggest issue, why
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  Speaker 1: is it that so many kids and frankly, so many
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: parents are struggling with friendship challenges.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: I think right now the world has changed. Our kids
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  Speaker 2: are living in relationally complex times. Don't you think justin
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  Speaker 2: it is.
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  Speaker 1: That's a great word for it, really.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, But why, like when you try to put your
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: finger on why is it different now to what it
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  Speaker 1: was when we were growing up a generation to go
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  Speaker 1: back in the nineteen eighties. There's the social media theory
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  Speaker 1: of everything, right. Everyone just says, oh, it screens at
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: social media. But our sex year olds and our eight
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  Speaker 1: year olds and our ten year old done on social media,
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  Speaker 1: so it's not that for them. Where's the complexity come
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: from in these friendships.
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  Speaker 2: It's more culturally diverse, there's more neurodiversity. Our school systems
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  Speaker 2: is different. We're living at a faster pace. I don't
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  Speaker 2: think we're playing with our kids in the same way.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: So they're not getting played with in the same way.
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  Speaker 2: They're not getting modeled how to play in the same way.
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  Speaker 2: I think there's so many factors, including like COVID knocking
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: out a few years for some of our kids, particularly
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  Speaker 2: in Melbourne, so they've been in this melting pot and
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of parents feel the same. We
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: talk to adults, they'll say they're dependable. Circles of friendships
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: have gotten smaller than ever. So we're just talking about
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: kids here. So when I'm talking about relationally complex times,
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  Speaker 2: we can look at everything from world leaders and what
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  Speaker 2: our kids are seeing modeled all the way to what
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  Speaker 2: they're experiencing in the playground. Our kids are coming home
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  Speaker 2: with more complex challenges online and offline. I think because
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: of that, they need a stronger skill set. Our parents
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  Speaker 2: said to us, go play, go mingle, be kind, and
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  Speaker 2: go work it out. But it's not enough of an
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  Speaker 2: instruction or manual. And poor parents are like Michelle, what
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  Speaker 2: do I do? What do I say? How do I
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  Speaker 2: face the challenges that my kids are facing? Because I
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  Speaker 2: don't have all the words for this provocative question.
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  Speaker 1: Do you think the parents are meddling too much in
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  Speaker 1: their kids' friendships? Whereas in the nineteen eighties our parents
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  Speaker 1: did say go and play figure it out?
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  Speaker 2: See? I don't think so, because friendships should be built
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  Speaker 2: on safety, chemistry, and effort. And I think we've really
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  Speaker 2: overdone this idea that we're helicoptering parenting, we're looking after
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  Speaker 2: our kids' safety. I think that we need to make
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  Speaker 2: sure the foundation of our kids' friendships is built on safety.
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  Speaker 2: And when I think about my boys growing up, we
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  Speaker 2: were very involved in their friendships. Our kids are playing
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  Speaker 2: a lot justin damn it, they are. We see kids
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  Speaker 2: in the street everywhere playing when I visit my son
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  Speaker 2: who's twenty seven. He lives in a unit block. All
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  Speaker 2: kids go down to the park in the afternoon and
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  Speaker 2: they play, but they're not playing well. They're hurting each other.
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  Speaker 2: And I don't think they're always playing in safe environments,
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  Speaker 2: and I don't think it is parents meddling actually making
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  Speaker 2: sure that their kids are safe.
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  Speaker 1: Michelle. When you write a book, there's usually one or
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  Speaker 1: two things that you come up with that you just
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  Speaker 1: think every parent needs to know this, Like there's sort
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  Speaker 1: of this tread this through line, or maybe it's just
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  Speaker 1: a finding, a research finding where you go, oh, if
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  Speaker 1: everyone understood this, it would change everything. As you were
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  Speaker 1: writing Friendship Smart, what was the thing that you just thought,
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  Speaker 1: I wish everybody knew this. If we could just get
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  Speaker 1: this and e wereone's head would be there.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you for this question, because I got so
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  Speaker 2: frustrated when I was looking at the relationship curriculum we
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  Speaker 2: had in schools and when I was talking to teachers
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  Speaker 2: and I was ranting at home to my husband, red flags,
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  Speaker 2: green flags, all start checklists. It's not enough, dog, and
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  Speaker 2: I want to be really upfront with parents. It's not
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  Speaker 2: that I'm saying there's anything wrong with these things. Of course,
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  Speaker 2: our kids need to genuinely know what a red flag is,
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  Speaker 2: Like that's a no brainer. But I'm like and and
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  Speaker 2: I want every parent to be able to transfer to
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  Speaker 2: their kids that relationships are founded on safety. They gather
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  Speaker 2: energy through chemistry, and they're sustained through effort. Safety chemistry
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  Speaker 2: and effort, and those three things are founded on what
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  Speaker 2: enables long term romantic and platonic relationships to last. They're
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  Speaker 2: based on research. And I've developed a framework that sits
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  Speaker 2: like a triangle, and every corner of that triangle is
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  Speaker 2: actually safety chemistry or effort. Kids get to rate safety
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  Speaker 2: chemistry effort on a rating of one to ten because
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  Speaker 2: I need them to know that these things fluctuate and move,
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  Speaker 2: they're not stagnant like color coding people. And I've got
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  Speaker 2: twelve friendship smart shapes because safety, chemistry and effort actually
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  Speaker 2: show up in different formats and different ways in relationships.
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  Speaker 2: So those shapes actually sort of give kids an automatic
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  Speaker 2: visual of an intense friendship, a steady friendship, a one
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  Speaker 2: sided friendship, a situational friendship. And I know it's hard
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  Speaker 2: to explain on a podcast, but they'll see it automatically
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  Speaker 2: in a book. If chemistry is low, but safety is
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  Speaker 2: high and effort is high, they're probably in a situational friendship.
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  Speaker 2: And some of the most solid friendship our kids have
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  Speaker 2: through school.
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  Speaker 1: This is great, especially when there's a really strong model.
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  Speaker 1: I'm thinking about how I'm always advocating that parents should
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: sit down once a week with their kids. For us,
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  Speaker 1: we do it on a Sunday morning around about eight am.
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  Speaker 1: It's guaranteed that's family time where we engage in explicit
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  Speaker 1: teaching about stuff that matters in their lives. So we
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: might be talking about resilience, or we could be talking
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  Speaker 1: about dating because we've got kids that are in that
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  Speaker 1: age range now, or we might be talking about alcohol
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: or other drugs. But this friendship conversation, it fits perfectly there.
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  Speaker 1: And to sit down and say, let's talk about a
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  Speaker 1: couple of your friends and talk about how safe you
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  Speaker 1: feel with them, how much chemistry is there, and how
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  Speaker 1: much effort the relationship requires. All of a sudden, it
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  Speaker 1: gives you a framework for communicating about friendships. But it
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  Speaker 1: gives kids a model of what a healthy friendship looks like, and.
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  Speaker 2: Their automatic diagrams and the funniest thing is I actually
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  Speaker 2: named them at the hairdressers with the apprentice girls who
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  Speaker 2: are like between eighteen and twenty four, and they were like, yeah, no,
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  Speaker 2: that's the girl I go clubbing with chisy and dense friend,
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  Speaker 2: no safety, all chemistry, all effort, and then like the
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  Speaker 2: steady friend. They're like, no, that's my mama. I don't
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  Speaker 2: have a friend like that. And then the other girl
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  Speaker 2: piped up, Yeah, I've got a friend like that, but
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  Speaker 2: she never goes clubbing with me, you know. So it
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  Speaker 2: was like such a beautiful conversation. Then they talked about
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  Speaker 2: one sided friendships, and we just had so much fun
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  Speaker 2: because instantly see in a visual and recognize where their
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  Speaker 2: relationships were at. And I always talk to kids about
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  Speaker 2: you can shift the shape by looking at how you
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  Speaker 2: can invest in chemistry, effort, safety, and then we talk
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  Speaker 2: about reciprocity. You know. The perfect shape is the balance
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  Speaker 2: friendship shape, which is seven out of ten. It's not
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  Speaker 2: ten out of ten. Ten out of ten is fusion.
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  Speaker 2: Ten out of ten is where kids lose their individuality
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  Speaker 2: too much. Safety is sweeping things under the carpet. No
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  Speaker 2: human being is ten out of ten safety. There is
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  Speaker 2: no marriage on Earth that is ten out of ten safety.
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  Speaker 2: You know, there is no relationship on Earth where it's
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  Speaker 2: healthy for it to be ten out of ten chemistry
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  Speaker 2: because it is maxed out and ten out of ten
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  Speaker 2: effort is you are scrambling to keep someone in your pocket.
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  Speaker 2: So we talk about good enough friendship being there's enough
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  Speaker 2: room for human error, and that thirty percent margin is
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  Speaker 2: actually really healthy for kids.
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  Speaker 1: Michelle, after break, I want to talk about friendships with
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  Speaker 1: neu diiverse kids. This is such a big challenge for
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  Speaker 1: so many, both the neurotypical and the neurodiverse in our community.
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  Speaker 1: Also some surprise research findings if we've got times, some
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  Speaker 1: gender stuff because boys and girls do friendships differently. That
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  Speaker 1: and more coming up in moments on the Happy Families podcast.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: Stay with us, We're back. It's the Happy Family's podcast.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: Before we step into my next question, Michelle, I'm recalling
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: a quote from William Shakespeare's Hamlet, Let's Act one, scene three,
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  Speaker 1: and it's part of the iconic advice that Polonius gives
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  Speaker 1: to his son Latz, I don't know how to say
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: lets lautes before he leaves for France, and he says this.
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  Speaker 1: The full quote those friends thou hast and their adoption
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  Speaker 1: tried grapple them unto thy soul with hoops of steel.
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  Speaker 2: What does that mean? Can you can you give me English?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah? Plain English. He's saying, hold on tight to your
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  Speaker 1: proven loyal friends, keep them close to your heart. It's
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  Speaker 1: like there's something delightful about friends. And as I reflect
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: on my life, the deepest friendships they've they've lasted decades
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: and they feel so good. But so many of our
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: kids are struggling with them. I want to know when
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: it comes to near adversity, there's an extra challenge. And
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: sometimes I know too many neudiverse kids who literally don't
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: have a friend.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: What's your advice to parents whose children are struggling in
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  Speaker 1: that way?
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  Speaker 2: I talk about a friendship smart village, which does include
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: more than our kids immediate circle, perhaps at school or
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: homeschooling or wherever they're you know they're landing in for
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: a lot of the time. Because sometimes those situations can
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: be high pressure situations where they don't thrive socially. They
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: can find friendships sometimes in their grandparents or a smaller
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: community that involves their cousin or their neighbors. So I
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: think we need to really think about the layers of
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: people around their lives. I love to say to families,
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  Speaker 2: if we can transfer this beautiful heart that says, all
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  Speaker 2: safe people are my people, and we can model that
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  Speaker 2: in our daily lives, from the way we treat the
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  Speaker 2: person and who serves us coffee all the way to
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: the way we treat each other in our homes. But
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: all safe people belong on our people map, and our
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  Speaker 2: neurodivergent kids deserve people in our lives, and they're all
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  Speaker 2: good for our kids' mental health. The challenge for them
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: is to understand that not everyone deserves equal access to
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: their heart, and that's the layers of closeness that I
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: talk about in the chapter of navigation, And they need
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: very concrete tools to understand that in every layout, there's
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: a different type of conversation and a different intimacy of
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: conversation that they engage in, so they might change the
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: way they talk to someone that they don't know very
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: well or that they meet once a week at the
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: grocery store, to the way they talk to their sibling
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: in their home.
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  Speaker 1: Let's talk research for a sec What was the most
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: surprising research finding you came across as you were putting
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: this book together, Like, there's a whole lot of stuff
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  Speaker 1: as you reading a book like this or writing a
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: book like this, where you're like, yeah, yeah, I know it. Yes,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: I know that. I know that as well, and then
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: you come across stuff that just makes you go, oh,
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: my goodness. I'll give you an example. Two weeks ago,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: I interviewed Nicholas Epley on the podcast. He's got a
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: book out called A Little More Social. He's a professor
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: of psychology, and one of his great findings is that
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: when we're approaching somebody that we don't know to have
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: a conversation, we have a lot of hesitancy because we
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: expect that they're not going to want to talk to us,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: and that the conversation is not going to go well,
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: and so we're kind of going, this is going to
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: be a terrible experience. But then when we have that
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: conversation with them, whether it's the barista at the coffee
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: shop or somebody that was sitting beside on the train,
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: when we take our earbuds out and take the plunge
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: and say hey, great hat or where are you off to,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: we somehow discover that they're really happy to talk to
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: us at least briefly, and it's usually a really positive experience.
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  Speaker 1: So that's that's a surprise research finding from that research
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: when it comes to kids and their friendships, what left
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: you going huh. I would never have thought.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I could give you two.
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: Could give one for the focus groups that I ran
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: with kids, which is not formal research, but for me,
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: it was like heart research. But I could also give
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: you the formal research. So something that actually really surprised
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: me was the research around kids online bullying and the
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: same exact same percent of kids that had been bullied
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: online said that they had also bullied somebody else online
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: in the same way in the last twelve months.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: Wow, it'sn't that interesting. And I was actually really shocked
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: about how systemic bullying was in our schools particularly, and
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: how highly we rate in bullying in Australia, and that
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: we're not just lagging behind in our academic achievement, we're
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: actually lagging behind in our social skills as well. And
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: that really stood out to me. I was like, this
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: is an issue. It's not just an issue that our
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: kids are struggling with their maybe academics, they're actually struggling
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: socially well well, and maybe that is a direct correlation.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: The only country that has more bullying in research literature
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: than Australia is Latvia.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: That's right. And this is compared to twenty four other
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: ecated countries, Japan, Canada, and New Zealand. So we're talking
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: about Western English speaking countries and atrocious. I've sat with kids,
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: particularly boys, that have not wanted to share the reality
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: of what's going on because they don't want to look
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: like they're not socially competent. But this is stuff that
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: makes your heart sick. This is stuff that makes you think.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: You give me two minutes a line with that kid
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: and they never get to hsue again. You know, but
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: you know this is not okay. And that really stood
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: out to me justin in the focus groups with kids.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: I think what stood out to me is that boys
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: had a real desire to stay in sort of relationship
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: kindergarten and girls had a desire to upgrade to relationship university.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: There was that real, innate desire to pull both ways.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: I always wanted to stay in the simplicity of non missing,
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: non emotional relationships as long as possible. I wanted it
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: to stay really practical, like just let me help my mate,
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: let me show up, and let's just be honest about things,
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: and girls just wanted to complicate things, but they wanted
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: to really dip dive into something that felt mature very quickly.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I find the gender differences in the way that
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: friendships work fascinating. I'm currently working through a book called
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: A Billion Years of Sex Differences by a guy called
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: Steve Stewart Williams, and it's just extraordinary to see how
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: it all plays out now our time is up. The
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: book is called Friendship Smart. This is an unfair question
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: to ask you, Michelle, But what I found whenever I've
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: written a book is I do a whole lot of interviews, podcasts, TV,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: blah blah blah, and invariably I get to about my
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: fourth or fifth interview and the questions start to follow
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: a reasonably familiar pattern, and I realized that everybody's asking
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: me that one question that I didn't really talk about
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: in the book. When you think about the book that
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: you've written, now that it's out, it's been out for
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: four weeks, you've had all these conversations about it, what's
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: the one thing where you're going, Oh, if only i'd
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: put that in.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: Oh, it would be how much technology has changed the
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: way our kids see and accept friendship dynamics as normal.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: I wrote it, but maybe not enough. What they see
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: is normal in their concept of give and take. I
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: think social media has very much told them it's all
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: about them. And I did write it, but I think
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: I could have written it more explicitly. And I think
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: our kids have really learnt the art of receiving, but
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: they're lagging behind with that understanding of what it takes
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: to really show up and put effort consistently into relationships.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Safety, chemistry, effort. They form the framework the basis Friendship
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: Smart by Michelle Mitchell. And now you even know the
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: stuff that wasn't in there enough, So get the book
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: and see everything that is in there. Michelle, I really
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: hope the book is a tremendous success for you because
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: I think that you deserve it, but for the children
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: in our communities because they need it. So thanks for
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: writing it, and thanks for this great chat.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah they do, Thanks so much.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: Justin the book is called Friendship Smart. We will link
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: to it in the show notes. Grab a copy, maybe
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: get a copy for a friend, Maybe a friend who's
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: struggling and give it to them as a gift, especially
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: if you know that kids are having a hard time
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: all the details like I said in the show notes.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast sound engineering and audio by Justin
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: Rouland from Bridge Media. Mim Hammond's provides admin and additional support.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: For more info about making your family happier, visit happyfamilies
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: dot com dot au.