Latest / The You Project / #1765 Feed the Kids or Go to the Doctor - James Gillespie

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#1765 Feed the Kids or Go to the Doctor - James Gillespie · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I'll get at Welcome to another installing the You project.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the seventh of January, as I sit here in
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: the bloody office here in the thriving metropolis of Melbourne,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: just slowly stepping back into the studio and slowly regaining
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: a little bit of momentum, coming out of the hammock
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: and the jacuzzi and having grown up conversations in twenty
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: twenty five with grown ups. Now. A grown up that
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: I talk to every two weeks, sometimes once a week,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: but typically every two weeks is David James, Kevin Patrick,
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Brian Gillespie, his son James, who's better looking and smarter,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: not quite as access not quite as accessible. He's joined
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: me today, not filling in for his old man, but
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: just here in his own rights, have a really interesting
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: chat about something that is relevant for all ozsies. Get
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: I mate, how are you not bad?
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Craig. It's going to be on with you again.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Do you like that intro? Yeah?
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: No, it's the run. I would say.
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: If you're struggling to get out of the havoc and
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: jacuzzi in Melbourne coming out of the holidays, you got
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: to move up to the Sunshine Coast. Craig, you never
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: have to get out of the havoc and jacuzy up here.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know your old man's always telling me a
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: version of that. I don't, I don't know. I mean, look,
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: we're all very parochial. We all love well, we don't
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: all love where we live. But I do love the
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Sunshine State. But as someone who has had I would
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: say about sixteen or seventeen skin cancers cut off, I
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: probably shouldn't. I probably shouldn't relocate it.
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: Looks it really is a bit of a double edged
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: sword up here. You've got to be careful with that.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: But yeah, if you're if you're, if you are looking
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: to get more cut out Craig, and this is the
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: place to be.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: But yeah, look I'll take that under advisement. I'll probably
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: take a hard pass at this point in time. But
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: if I review that, I'll get back to you. Thanks
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: for your terrible advice. All right, now, let's just quickly
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: let's dive in. So rather than me give a bio
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: or me try to talk about clean Bill or the
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Blue Report, just tell my audience as quick or as
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: slowly as you want, mate, who you are, what you're doing,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: and what's coming out next week as well. We're recording
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: next week, but by the time this goes live, it'll
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: be out.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So.
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: I might give a little bit of a longer version
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: of events, if that's all right, Gray, Yeah, sure, and
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: take everyone back to the start. So I grew up
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: in Queensland and I was studying commerce law at university
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: at the University of Queensland back in twenty sixteen. And
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: while I was studying there, I was working as a
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: teacher ade at a primary school and one Monday I
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: came into the staff room and the pe teacher was
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: laid out on the floor stretching. She'd injured herself over
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: the weekend. She injured her back, but more than being
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: concerned about the injury itself, she was concerned about getting
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: someone to take a look at it. She was new
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: to the areas, she didn't have a regular GP and
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: as a working professional, she didn't have time during the
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: day to find every single GP clinic around her and
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: then call them all during business hours to see if
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: they would take her on as a new patient and
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: whether or not they would bill.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Her and Craig. I was kind of shocked by that.
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: It seemed insane to me that one of the most
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: important relationships that people have in their lives, the relationship
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: that they have with their local doctor, could be suck.
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: In the nineteen sixties, you know, where people were still
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: looking things up in the Yellow Pages and making calls
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: during business hours.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: Just about everything else is online.
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: I couldn't imagine that that was the one thing that
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: had held off and was still not online. So I
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: went home and I did a bit of research, and
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: I found that that actually was the case. People still
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: the most efficient way to find a doctor was to
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: just look up in the Yellow Pages and give them
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: all a call.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: And that seemed saying to me.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: So I used the ample Utia holidays that I had
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: at the time and started calling up doctors myself and
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: building lists of all of the doctors in a given
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: area and getting their pricing and availability information, and then
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: I put it all up on a directory called Mind
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: the Gap, and the directory is completely free, and the
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: idea behind it was that people could go on anytime
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: the day or night, see every single GP clinic or
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: dental clinic or specialist around them, and then filter them
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: by the price of their basic services. And it worked
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: pretty well for a time. But it was very small
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: scale because it was just me doing it. I didn't
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: have any money or anything, and yeah, I didn't have.
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: It was just whatever I was able to get done
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: in my unique holidays. And so when I finished Union,
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: it kind of slowed down a little bit. But then
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: I went to work as a grad in my first
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: year out of UNI, and in this role, I I
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: met up with with a bloke named Joel who taught
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: me a little bit about programming and a little bit
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: about how to use Excel a little bit more efficiently,
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: and a light bulb kind of went off in my mind,
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: and so I used the COVID lockdown to teach myself
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: a little bit of programming, and I put together a
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: new website called clean Build that used the best of the.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Programming that I'd learned as well.
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: As my full time salary to pay teams of callers
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: to do the calling that I was doing previously by myself.
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: And at the start of twenty twenty three, I released
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: clean Belle's first ever Blue.
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  Speaker 2: Report, which was.
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: A report into the statistics we put together by listing
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: every single GP clinic we could find across all of
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: Australias capital cities and the whole of the Northern territory
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: of the Act and Pasmania. So it was a huge undertaking,
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: but we were the first to go out and do
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: this comprehensive calling and it forms the basis of the
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: listings on the website. And so when we put this
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: report out, we called it the Blue Report and just
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: released it. And the idea behind it, really, Craig, was
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: just to try to get people get awareness out there
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: of the website, of help people find the website and
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: find the free resource that it provided. But it created
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: something of a storm. There was a lot of interest because,
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: as you would know, bolk billing rates have been going down.
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: A lot of people have seen that in their communities.
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: They weren't necessarily seeing it in the statistics that were
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: being published by the government, and our report was the
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: first one that really captured what it was like to
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: try to find a bulk billing clinic.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: In your community that and so we kept doing that.
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: Each year we've gone out, we've called towards the end
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: of each year, we've called every single GP clinic we're
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: able to find across the country, and then in January
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: of the following year released the Blue Report that reports
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: on what's happened in the previous year to both bolk
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: billing rates and out of pocket costs if you're looking
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: at every single GP clinic across the country. And that's
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: what this year's Blue Report does. It's our third annual
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: Blue Report, and it reports on what's happened since since
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: the start of twenty twenty three to both billing and
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: out of pocket costs across the country.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: A couple of things. I want to know why the
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: Blue Report? What does that mean? Where did that name
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: come from?
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: Oh, you're gonna laughs. It's because Kleingvill's logo is blue. Okay,
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: that's the teeth as it goes.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, that's that's the reason, Vie.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: That's all right. But it's like I always wonder about,
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: you know, the etymology of words or terms. I'm like,
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: what's the origin story for that word or for that term,
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: or even for that phrase. So that's cool. Also, I
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: want to know before we jump into the numbers and
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: the stats and we see what's actually happened happening across
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: the medical landscape. Yeah, I want to know, like, why
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: does a young dude spend his wage paying people to
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: create this thing? And I'm pretty sure that you're not
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: trying to get.
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  Speaker 4: Rich doing this, because you could get rich much easier,
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: and you could, you could, you could invest your In fact,
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: this would make you about the worst business man ever.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: But yeah, So what what was the like just from
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: that curiosity of the lady in the staff room when
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: you were doing that work in the school and seeing
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: that to this thing that you have now created, which
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: is you know, expanding and growing and getting a footprint
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: and recognition and all kinds of attention. What what was
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: the motivator for you? Like? Why did you want to
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: invest so much of your life and your own money
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: to do it?
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: Well?
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. It's not been a
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: particularly fruit investment so far. Over the course of the
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: first eighteen months of Cleanville, it cost me a fair
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: amount of money. It's now bringing in enough money that
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: it can pay for itself. Although I still am working
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: a different job full time. I no longer have to
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: pay my salary to keep it running, which is good.
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: But I mean when it first started out, when it
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: was just mind the gap it was and it was
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: just me doing the calling. It was just something to
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: do over the Holimads. It was something that I wanted
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: to investigate and see what was happening in I'd always
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: grown up assuming that that Australia had this really robust
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: universal healthcare system, and the purpose of a universal healthcare
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: system and a robust one was to ensure that anyone
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: who got sick at any time would be able to
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: go and see a doctor, regardless of their economic circumstances.
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  Speaker 3: And the more I dug into it when I was
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: working online the Gap, the more I realized that it
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: was firstly a lot more complex than that, and secondly
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: becoming increasingly rare that people, regardless of their economic circumstances
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: would be able to access that primary care that they needed.
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: And so Mind the Gap kind of then more from
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: being just an interest thing to almost feeling as though
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: a mission that had to be completed myself. I felt
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: like I was in a position now where I understood
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: quite clearly what was happening in our broader medicare system
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: and in the accessibility of primary care, and I wanted
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: to ensure that there was a tool that people could
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: use to find doctors and see how much it would
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: cost to go and visit them. And that carried over
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: into clean build as well. And I mean it might sound,
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: I guess trite, but it was really a feeling that
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: if there is an opportunity here for me to make
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: a differences improve people's access here, and I instead decide
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: to stand by and do nothing to ensure that people
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: have that access, then you know, I'm kind of accepting
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: the fact that there's nothing that can be done.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember, if I remember correctly, that is when
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: you first launched in twenty twenty three, or you did
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: your first Blue report, and my correct was twenty twenty.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: Three, twenty three.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: Good, yep. That you know, reaching out to all of these,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: you know, first time, reaching out to all of these
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: medical centers and clinics and providers and trying to get
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: information about pricing, you weren't exactly warmly received by everybody.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: Do I recall that correctly.
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's I think we did receive a bit
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: of a warmer reception in twenty twenty three than I
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: was receiving in twenty seventeen. When I first started doing
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: it with mine in the gap, Like in twenty seventeen,
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: it was really unheard of thing to call up a
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: clinic and ask what their price was, and I had
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: all number of clinics.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: Refusing to provide a quote.
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: You had, you know, twenty twenty five percent of clinics
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: refusing to provide a quote because they just it was
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: a foreign thing.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: But we kept doing it, and.
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: The blue reports that we've done in twenty twenty three
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: and in twenty twenty four now have completely changed the
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: national narrative around disclosure of pricing. Now it's an expectation
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: that when people call up at GP clinic they will
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: be able to get that information, to the point that
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: when we're collecting data for GP clinics now we have
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: fewer than one percent not providing a quote, and an
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: increasing number of GP clinics each year are putting their
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: pricing up on their website, so you don't even necessarily.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: Have to call them anymore. You can just go on
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: that website.
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: Now it's still a small percentage, unfortunately, but it is
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: a growing percentage. And so that's been I think a
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: really really good byproduct of the advocacy work that we've
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: done in this area.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well that is great, And I mean, think
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: about any other product or service where I'm selling you
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: something but I'm not going to tell you how much
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: it is what it's a ridiculous notion. Yeah I want
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: to buy that lounge, Sure, how much is it? I
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: can't tell you. Or I want to go and train
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: with a personal trainer. Sure, I'll train you three days
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: a week. Okay, how much is a per session? Can't
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: tell you, Craig.
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: It's the way I think of it as almost even
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: more of an imperative than those examples, whilst they're good examples.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: The way I explained it when I first started out
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: was that imagine if you're running law on fuel in
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: a neighborhood that you don't know, and instead of there
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: being an app that shows you all of the petrol
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: stations around you and how much they cost, there's no app.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: There's nothing that you can see. None of the petrol
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: stations even have that big sign out front that says
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: how much it costs. You just have to drive up
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: to the pump, fill up your car, and then go
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: in and pay whatever they tell you the cost is
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: for filling up your tank. That's the situation that you
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: were in with GPS, and are still in with some
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: specialists across the country, where you need this service. You
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: need what they're providing. If you run out of petrol,
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: you're not going very far. If you're not able to
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: take care of your health, you're not probably going very
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: far either. You need the service that they're providing, and
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: there is no transparency whatsoever around costs. It would be
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: an utterly foreign concept for that to occur with petrol,
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: yet it's something that people have accepted for a long time.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: With medicine in.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: Australia, is there a particular area of specialty in the
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: medical space that is particularly elusive and or evasive when
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: it comes to clarity around pricing. Well, so, we've we've.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: Had a lot of success with GPS and with improving
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: the likelihood that.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: The GP clinic will tell people what they're pricing is
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: ahead of time. We've also seen that flow through to
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: some special so we have listed dermatologists on the website,
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: and most dermatology clinics quite forthcoming in the pricing information
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: that they had. We've not branched out too much into
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: other specialties yet. I know from experience when I was
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: doing the calls for mind the Gap back in twenty seventeen,
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: we had even greater difficulty in getting pricing information from
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: all specialists, whether they be dermatologists, nts, psychiatrists, anything like
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: that we were having trouble. So it will be interesting,
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: I think, to see as we expand out into other specialties,
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: which we intend to do in the early months of
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: next year, whether that culture has also changed.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right, Well, without further ado, let's jump
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: in and give us kind of the the highlight reel
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: or the snapshot of what the new report is going
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: to tell us in terms of your key findings.
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: Of course, so it's worth remembering when you look at
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: the report. But what we're looking at here is the
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: bold billing rate as defined by our report. So we
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: define it a little bit differently to the government, and
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: the way we define it is the percentage of available clinics,
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: so clinics that are taking on new patients that will
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: both build a regular adult for a standard consultation.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: Now that it sounds.
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: Very specific when you lay it out like that grade,
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: but that's actually how the vast majority of adults interact
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: with their GP is they'll go in for a standard consultation.
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: And we only want to measure the available clinics because
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: if you're someone new to an area, who are the
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: vast majority of people who are using clean to find GPS.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: It's unhelpful to know that there are five GP clinics
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: around you that will both bill you if none of
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: them are able to take you ont.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: Of the patient.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: So there's not really there's no list of every GP
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: clinic in Australia. In fact, it's very difficult to even
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: tell how many GP clinics there are in Australia. So
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: when klean bill goes out, we're just looking to find
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: every single one that we can, so I guess we're
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: assembling the comprehensive lists in that regard, and that means
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: that we found in twenty twenty three we found just
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: over six thousand, three hundred clinics in six eight hundred,
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: and this year over six thousand, nine hundred, So we
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: are improving as the years to go by, and I
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: would estimate that this is probably between ninety five and
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: ninety nine percent of the GP clinics across Australia. We've
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: called a price Information and what we found is that
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: over the course of the last two years, the BOLD
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: building rate across Australia has fallen from thirty five point
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: seven percent to twenty point seven percent.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: What that means is that the percentage of clinics that
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: will both bill a new adult patient has fallen from
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: over a third of clinics, it's now around a fifth
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: of clinics right now.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: It's gone from literally gone from one in three to
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: one in five. I mean that is that and that
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: is in two years?
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah? And why? I mean, sorry to interrupt, but no,
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: why is that?
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Why do you what's your theory?
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: Well, I've got to be a little bit careful about
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: how I talk about this, Craig, because my other job,
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: by full time job, is working for the government, so
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: I'm not actually allowed to comment on government policy, right,
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: But I would say, more broadly, think about the last
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: two years, Craig, and the economic circumstances that we've all faced.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: It's been I don't think it's too much to say
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: it's been a cost of living crisis. We've all faced
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: the crunch of inflation, and small businesses are heavily impacted
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: by that, and most GP clinics, even today when there
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: are these large practice owners around, most GP clinics are
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: still small businesses and so when their costs go up,
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: they unfortunately a lot of them, have to make the
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: choice between continuing to both bill only certain groups and
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: charging out a pocket cost for their regular adult patients,
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: or some of them have to look at cutting costs
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: elsewhere or potentially shutting down if they're not able to
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: continue to bold fill their clientele or make ends meet
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: in other ways. So I think that's why we're seeing
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: the bolk billing rate ball and fall so rapidly over
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: the last two years. Is just we've faced very difficult
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: economic circumstances over the last few years, and we're seeing
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: these play out with GP clinics, which are mostly small businesses.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, right, okay, all right, So number one is
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: bolt billing rates is on the slide one third down
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: to one fifth. Yep, all right.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: Next, well, what's really interesting is, well, Craig, is how
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: these bulk billing rates stack up within the states and territories.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: Because the national bolt building rate is overwhelmingly being held
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: up by New South Wales at this stage, right Musicwealth
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: has a thirty four point five percent vault billing rate.
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: Over half the volt billing clinics nationally are located in
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: New South Wales. Wow, Yeah, which means that all of
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: the other states have far lower bolt billing rates. In fact,
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: Victoria and Queensland are the only two other states now
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: that have a vault billing rate above ten percent.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: Wow wow, that's amazing. I mean, so so all of
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: the states other than Queensland and Victoria are below ten.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: Percent, below ten percent. Yeah, Tasmania is currently at zero percent.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Wow wow wow. Okay, yeap.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: What's really interesting as well is when you break this
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: down by numbers. So Western Australia has six hundred and
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: sixty one clinics that we were able to find. Thirty
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: seven of those we have listed as bold billing, which
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: is a six point two percent bolt billing rate. But
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: if you break that down by population, that means that
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: there's now one bold billing clinic in Western Australia for
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: every forty six thousand, six hundred and thirty nine adults.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah. And as you were saying before, like
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: not all of these bulk billing clinics are open to
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: new patients, is that right?
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: So the way that we measure them when we're talking
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: about these percentages, all of these are open to new patients,
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: right right, right. In actuality, the bulk billing rate may
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: in fact be a little bit higher than this places
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: than what we're reporting. But those clinics are not taking
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: on new patients. It's not super helpful if you're a
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: new patient looking for a clinic around there.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, of course, of course. And so I mean,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: what's the bottom line for the bottom line is just
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: that the bottom line is higher for patients and for
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: the general public.
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, And we see this playing out in the
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: average out of pocket costs. So some time ago, the
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: out of pocket cost, the average amount that you're paying
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: started started increasing to the point that it now exceeds
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: the Medicare rebate in and of itself. So the Medicare
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: rebate is forty two dollars and eighty five cents for
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: standard consultation, and the average out of pocket cost that
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: you're paying is forty three dollars and thirty eight cents.
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: So you're paying double the Medicare rebate for a standard
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: consultation and you're getting less than half of that out
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: from Medicare when you're when you're going to see the GP.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: And do you think, James, I mean, if you have
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: any data on this, but you're I mean, you're in
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: and around it. Do you feel like you know, people
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: are not going to the doctor who perhaps should be
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: going to the doctor purely just because they can't afford it,
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: and they've got to choose between buying food for the
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: kids or going to see about that pain they've got
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: in their bloody left ear.
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: This is a really, really good question, Craig. And thankfully,
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: whilst Klingber isn't able to collect statistics on this, the
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: Australian Bureau of Statistics does publish statistics on this. So
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: each year in November they publish the percentage of Australians
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: over the age of fifteen who haven't gone to see
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: a GP because of concerns surrounding costs in the previous year.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: So literally just what you've just asked, they published. And
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: what's interesting is that in twenty twenty one, twenty two,
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: which is the first, which is the which we're released
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: in November of twenty twenty two, and so we're incorporated
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: into our twenty twenty three Blue Reports, the percentage of
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: Australians over the age of fifteen who hadn't gone to
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: see a GP because of concerns and cost was three
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: point five percent. Now that's about six hundred thousand Australians
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: that percentage now two years later is eight point eight percent,
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: which is over one point five million Australians. So you've
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: seen just a truly enormous increase in just the last
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: two years. And the number of Australians who aren't going
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: to see the doctor because of costs.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: Hang on, let me just so, one point five million
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: people who need to go the doctor have not gone
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: to the doctor purely, not because they don't want to go,
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: or not because they don't need to go, but because
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: they can't afford it. That's that's scary, isn't it? It is?
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: And it has brought implications for the healthcare system that
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: we're living in because for how much longer can you
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: consider that you have a universal healthcare system If you
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: have over one one and a half million Australians not
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: going to see the doctor because of costs. If the
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: entire purpose of a universal healthcare system is to ensure
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: that people can see a doctor regardless of their economic circumstances,
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: that would seem to be a fairly indicted, a fairly
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: clear indictment on that system when that many Australians can't
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: go to see a doctor because of costs.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: So I mean with this report, which is enlightening and
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: kind of shocking to be honest, What are the underlying aims?
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: You know, what are the drivers? What do you want
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: to happen? I'm sure there's not a thing, there's many things,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: but what would you like to see happening? Mate?
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: Well, there are really two goals that we have in
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: releasing a report like this. The first is the same
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: goal that I've had for every piece of media that
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: I've released, every report I've released for the media since
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: the Mind the Gap days, and that is to provide
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: to peace people an idea of the coverage that clean
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: bill has and the fact that clean bill exists out
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: there as a free website that they can use to
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: go and find GPS around them, because whilst these statistics
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: may look dire, it is still possible in most areas
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: to find either a bowl filling or a low out
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: of pocket cost GP. And having a service like clean bill,
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: a free service like clean built that shows people where
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: these GP clinics are, lets them filter them by their
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: pricing and then see exactly how much it'll cost to
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: go on them. They have to pick up a phone
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: is critically important to ensuring that people are able to
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: find the doctors who they can afford and who are
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: available to see them. So that's one of the reasons
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: that we release the report is just to create awareness
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: of the service that clean Bill provides. But the second
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: reason that has become a lot clearer since releasing these
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: reports under the banner of clean Built, just because of
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: how comprehensive the statistics have become, is that Kleanbal's the
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: only one doing this. We're the only ones even trying
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: to find every single GP clinics across the country, and
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: we're certainly the only ones reporting on availability rates, on
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: foulfilling rate on a clinic by clinic basis, which is
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: how people interact with their GP clinics. The way that
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: we publish this data reflects how people interact with GPS
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: around them, and so when we're publishing these reports, what
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: we're hoping to do is provide decision makers both at
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: the federal and state level with the best information possible
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: to inform the policy decisions that they're making. So we're
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: not partisan about this, We're not advocating for one side
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: or the other. What we're saying is this is the
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: state of healthcare in Australia. We've arrived at this state
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: and arrived at this description of this state by going
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: through the process that everyday Australians have to go through
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: every single time they're looking for a new GP, and
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: this is what it looks like for them. And so
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: decision makers can then take this information that we provided
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: and it can assist them what we hope it can
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: assist them in designing policies that will ensure that Australians
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: are more able to find those faulk building all well
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: out of cost options around them.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's for a noble intention. I'm just having a
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: look everyone at the Clean Build site. It's just clean
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: build dot com dot au. Super super clean and sharp,
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: no pun intended, but very nice sight mate, very just
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: very clean and clear and almost dare I say clinical,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: but not in a boring way. Everyone. So if you
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: want to have a look at what James is talking about,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: and you want to do a little bit of a
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: search yourself and whether not you're a potential patient or
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: even if you are a provider like a doctor or
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: a dermatologist or dentist blah blah blah, think am I
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: right in saying that? Yeah?
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, Craig and Also, all of the reports that we
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: release are on the website food, So if you want
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: to see, you know, what's happening with dermatologists on a
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: national level, we release the report into them in October
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: of last year, and you can go on the website
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: and see that report in full too.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, amazing, amazing. What else do you want
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: to share with a smike before you go anything we
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: need to know or consider or you want us to
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: have a look into.
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: Uh, well, look, I mean I think you've been incredibly
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: comprehensive creage in everything that you've covered off on here today.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: I would say as well that the website is completely
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: free to use when you're when you're going out and
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: doing those searches, so there's there's no fee attached as
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: a membership or anything like that. So yeah, it's really
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: just to reiterate that that's the services out there and
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: one that people can use completely free of charts.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: But James is starting a cult, but that's a separate thing.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: So.
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: Night Craig, let's not get into that.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: While yeah, just google clean build cult. You're so he's
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: not I'm being silly. I mean, do you know what's
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: funny for me? Sitting here. Okay, interview over officially, But
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: what's funny sitting here for me, mate, is I know
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: you probably hate this, but you're so much like your
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: dad and just the way that you talk and the
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: way that you phrase things, and yeah, I don't know
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: if you like that or hate that, but he's a
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: pretty bloody good communicator. So it's not the worst trait,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: you know. Just before we go one, thank you so much, mate,
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Just dear people, So, is that the only place you
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: want to kind of send people clean build dot com
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: dot au. Do you want to steer them towards any
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: social media or anything? Oh?
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean actually that's thank you for bringing that up, Craig.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: I'm only just getting used to that now because we've
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: only just started up some social media recently. So if
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: you search at clean bill oz, we're on everything except
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: for Twitter x or whatever it's called now. We're on TikTok,
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: We're on YouTube, on Instagram and basically what I've been
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: doing with those with the videos that we've been putting
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: up there is just really short, one minute long videos
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: that explain some element of the healthcare system, because at
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: the moment, Australia has one of the most complex healthcare
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: systems on Earth, and a lot of the stuff that
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: you and I have spoken about here today, Craig, a
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: lot of the terms that we're using, things like folk filling,
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: things like out of pocket cost, may be quite new
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: to a lot of people, so that we have some
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: socials and it's really just videos explaining out what those
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: terms mean, why we're in the state that we're in
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: when it comes to bolth filling, what the government statistics
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: mean and why they're different to clean Bill statistics, and
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: also just explainers of the reports that we release as well.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: So we'll be doing an in depth explainer of the
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: Blue Report, going into a little bit more detail than
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: you and I have today, Craig, and things like that.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: So if people are interested in learning a little bit
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: more about clean Bill's background and also seeing a little
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: bit more about the healthcare system and the reports we release,
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: it's at clean bill oz on just about every social
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: media you can find.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: And when you say os is a US.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: Or a US, it occurred to me, as I said
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: at Craig, that was slightly as well. Yeah, Cleanville a US.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: James Gillespie from Clean Bill, you're a gun mate, we'll
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: chat next year, I'm sure, and we'll say goodbye off
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: in a moment, but for now, thanks for being on
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: the You project mate, Thanks very much, Craig