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Episode 146 - Nobody Calls Me Chicken · The Partial Historians

• Dr Rad 0:12 Welcome to the partial historians. Dr G 0:15 We explore all the details of ancient Rome. Dr Rad 0:20 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad. And Dr G 0:30 I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts. Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr G 1:04 Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of your favourite ancient Roman History podcast. The partial historians I am Dr. Rad psych it's a new year. I'm Dr. G Dr Rad 1:30 Excellent. And I am Dr Rad. I am a very confused little Dr Rad. Dr G 1:36 I was just thinking, you know, new year we'll switch it up. We'll see if anybody notices you notice straight away though. Dr Rad 1:43 Well, you know, it's a fairly distinctive name. I've had it all my life. Dr G 1:48 Well, well, well. Dr Rad 1:52 Well, welcome back. Dr. G. We are indeed in a new year. It's 2024. Dr G 1:57 At time of recording, yes, Dr Rad 2:01 it is a time of recording. And in terms of tracing the journey of room from the founding of the city. We had a very big episode last episode where we were talking about 409 BCE. Dr G 2:16 Yeah, not only is this like the landmark year that marks this first century of the Roman Republic, but oh, boy, was it full of plebeian action. Dr Rad 2:28 It was indeed, I believe that after some lengthy handwringing, and some classic conflict of the orders narrative, we did finally get a plebeian into the quaestorship. Dr G 2:42 That's madness. It's crazy. I won't stand for it. Dr Rad 2:46 Please, well, just going to end I mean, that's all equality ever really needs, isn't it? Dr G 2:51 It's all over guys. I don't know how the patricians are going to hold up anymore. There's not enough fast cars or enough muscle to get them through this. Dr Rad 3:00 They certainly did Look at it as a sign that the world was about to end, Dr G 3:04 indeed, but I don't think it has fallen apart completely. Because we're here to talk about what happens after 409. Dr Rad 3:11 We will the privilege maintain their position of privilege? Or will they have to concede more to whoever mysterious people that will be? And actually, Dr G 3:25 I guess we'll find out. The other thing that's running parallel to this whole situation is what appears to be an expanded conflict with the Aequians and the Volscians. So Rome is going through a bit of a military upheaval. Dr Rad 3:39 They are indeed I mean, we've talked about these guys on and off, you know, for a while now, but it does seem to be particularly flaring up at this point in the century. Dr G 3:51 Indeed. So with that sort of background in place, I think we might be ready to step into 408 BC. Dr Rad 4:00 408 BCE. Now, Dr. G, I'm presuming Dionysius is still keeping his distance from you. Dr G 4:27 That man is hiding from me in his fragments, and I don't know what is going on. Dr Rad 4:33 Oh, Dr. G, has no narrative source material once again. I'll bet you anything. She can tell us who the magistrates are for this year. Dr G 4:42 Yeah, Look, I mean, it's not so bad. I can tell you things like who's who? I do have the Fasti Capitolini, which is the ultimate guide to who's who as far as most of us are concerned. And I have some little snippets from Diodorus Siculus as well. So we'll get to those in due course. Okay. Okay. But we start off with a year where military tribunes with consular power appear to have been voted in. Yes. And we have three of these guys this year. Yes, we have Gaius Iulius Vopisci Iullus. A patrician. We have Publius Cornelius Cossus a patrician. Yeah. And a Gaius Servilius Ahala, a patrician. Dr Rad 5:31 Well, Dr. G, I can't say that I'm surprised. But given the way the patricians were carrying on last time, I really thought that maybe this was going to be the year when finally we were going to slee or see a plebeian elected into this position. But now, once again, I am amazingly disappointed. Dr G 5:53 It's too soon. The quaestorship is one thing but how dare the plebeians attempt to make a grab for anything beyond this station? Dr Rad 6:02 That's clearly what the patricians were worried about last episode, they thought that, you know, the quaestorship was, you know, just a stepping stone and it was all going to be downhill from here, as far as they were concerned, whereas for the plebeians it seemed to be very much uphill from here. Dr G 6:16 There does seem to be a sense in which there might be multiple issues at play, though, because usually, when the patricians become quite scared of plebeians rising in influence and power in an official capacity, they opt for the consulship as a deliberate move, to lock out plugins. So we've got this kind of understanding that's given to us through our annalistic sources. Obviously, there are some question marks there. But the consulship is still the preserve of the leads, and that if a plebeian were to get into a high position, that would include a military command, it would be as a military tribute with consular power. That's, that's one of the rationales that's been put forward for why this position developed in the first place. Yeah. And yet, on the back of 409, where we see a rise in plebeians coming into the quaestorship, we now see that 408 has military tribunes with consular power. So is it there's military issues on the horizon that Rome is concerned about, and they're going to take a risk because they haven't opted for the consulship? Here. Dr Rad 7:24 Now, remember that last episode, that was a point of contention, and the patricians were dead against this idea, because of the reasons you have outlined, but at least I suppose the plebeians had the opportunity. Someone elected once again and yet, didn't take it. It's Dr G 7:44 like how you had your chances, plebeians and yet fluffed it? Dr Rad 7:49 Well, I mean, Look, this is where we have to get back to the voting system, of course, as far as we can understand it, which of course, we may not be able to, because we may not really have an accurate record of what exactly was happening in order to get elected at this point in time. But I think we've talked before about the fact that the voting system is also rigged against people who are poor. Now, plebeians aren't necessarily poor. That is, but if we're talking about there being a more nuanced class divide, as we have before, where you may have wealthy plebeians who are actually voting along with patricians because their interests actually align more with the wealthy, regardless of whether they're patrician or plebeians, and then you've got maybe a sizable group of plebeians who aren't as economically stable or whatever. Yeah, that might lead to issues in the voting system, which might have been simplified over time. That's one possible way of looking at it. Dr G 8:53 For sure, and I think this is the sort of thing where networking and your allegiances through society become one of those things as well. The patricians have a very particular network. And I would say that the plebeians are probably trying to build those kinds of networks, but maybe aren't necessarily getting themselves across the line with the amount of influence they need for these electoral processes to work out in their favour. Oh, Dr Rad 9:19 absolutely. And that's really I think, what this whole suppose and conflict of the orders is all about really, it's not really about whether you're patrician and plebeian in a sense, it's about the level of privilege that you have and the amount of opportunities that are open to you. Hmm, Dr G 9:34 well, on that note, yeah, not only do we have military attributes with consular power, but I have to assume that something does happen this year. Because we also get a dictator and their companion a master of the horse. So Publius Cornelius Rutilus Cossus Hmm, possibly a relation of the military tribune with consular power, Publius Cornelius Cossus. Dr Rad 10:08 Disturbingly similar, Dr G 10:09 very similar, very similar. It comes into the dictatorship. Now, I'm assuming that you might be able to tell me the story about how and why that will come about. Oh, Dr Rad 10:22 live, you might have told me a thing or two. Dr G 10:25 Well, well, well. And he also brings with him one of the military tributes with constellar power, guys. Servilius Ahala, the armpit brings him across from that roll into being his master of the horse, just Dr Rad 10:41 in case people haven't listened to that episode, which was a while ago. Now. She's not just calling this guy in here. It's not like a horrible slur. That's what made me that's Dr G 10:52 that's definitely yeah, I'm just running with the Latin guys. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's put the armpit in power. Sure. Why not? Dr Rad 11:01 Well, this is interesting, actually. Because I mean, if we go back in time, briefly, Dr. G, it wasn't Ahala. He was involved in a very dramatic series. I can't even remember how long ago it was, was it last year? Was it even the year before? I think I think it might have been the year before 2022, that we were talking about the Ahala that really put this family on the math? Yes, Dr G 11:24 I think it's around about 439. BCE, or 431, somewhere in there, at least, nearly 20 years ago, by Roman standards, and maybe a couple of years ago by our own. Dr Rad 11:37 And it kind of makes sense that this family is, you know, starting to creep back into the records a little bit because just to give everyone a very brief overview, the Ahala that we enjoyed talking about so much before, was involved in the scandal around the nacho king of Rome Dr G 11:54 Spurius Maelius. Yes, yeah, Dr Rad 11:57 there was this whole issue. To be honest, we couldn't really figure out what on earth was going on. But it kind of seemed like an attempt by someone who wasn't from the patrician class to curry favour, or, or he was maybe given power, and the patricians were like, oh, hell, either way, this guy ended up being essentially murdered in broad daylight. And the guy that seems to have done the murdering was Ahala. Well, Dr G 12:23 and there's some speculation that he got his name from that moment, because he had gone into the forum with a hidden weapon under his arm. Dr Rad 12:32 Indeed, indeed. And the upshot of that was that he had to leave room. It's interesting that he's, I mean, this isn't the same guy, obviously. Dr G 12:43 No, but the family is clearly back. Yes, but yeah, definitely Dr Rad 12:47 after that whole incident and the leaving of room and that sort of thing. We definitely didn't mention that name, you know, for a while, but now it's starting to creep back in a little bit. Dr G 12:57 Yeah, they've returned and they ready to take their place in the top tier of political spots. Dr Rad 13:03 They have spawned a generation has passed in Roman times. Dr G 13:07 So what does happen this year? How do we get a dictator please tell me I've like I've been like tenterhooks of suspense being like, Oh, I got two names. Dr Rad 13:18 What an excellent question. Well, let's go back to the elections for a moment, shall we? This question of military Tribune with consular power. So Livy very smugly says that although technically, in 409, the plebs won the battle to have elections for military Tribunes, rather than consuls as you outlined for the various reasons. The patricians were the real winners in the end, because of course, only patricians got elected. Ha, ha, ha. actually knew I need to make that more upper class. Chortle Chorle Chortle. Dr G 13:50 I was gonna say, I would like you need to be holding a glass of whiskey give me Oh, Dr Rad 13:54 I definitely am. I sparked up a Cuban. Yeah, so obviously, we have our tribunes he got elected. So the way that the way that this happened, it wasn't just what we've seen before, which is that Livy keeps telling me that, well, sure the plebeians are technically able to elect a fellow clap to this position. But why would they? I mean, how can they be persuaded to do that when there are all these amazing blue blooded candidates standing out there that dazzled by the blue blood, Dr. G, and the diamonds on the soles of their shoes? Well, Dr G 14:29 Look, I mean, if somebody had diamonds on the soles of their shoes, I would be bamboozled. Dr Rad 14:33 So instead, what had happened in this particular case, is that the patricians being worried obviously, because of course, they're probably in getting this position would be the actual end of the world, not just a sign that the end of the world was coming. They and I'm quoting directly here, mix some unworthy competitors with the deserving. So yeah, basically, it was like a ruse to to choose and people that clearly weren't going to appeal weren't going to get elected and sort of confuse the voters. So they didn't, they didn't just put forward rubbish candidates or like allow rubbish candidates to run. But they made sure that it was confusing enough that a puppy and would not to get elected. Okay, Dr G 15:19 so you want to stick with the safe bet? You're like, oh, there's a lot of names in here. I'm not sure if I know these people. I'm just gonna go with the ones I recognise. I think Dr Rad 15:30 they actually do know these people. I think they know that these people are crap. And so because I presume I mean, this is where knowing a little bit more about how elections actually work would be helpful, I guess. But I think it's by mate. Somehow the patricians and I don't really understand how they did this, but I guess they must have some control over organising the election. I guess they just made sure that all of the plebeians who were running when not great choices. Interesting. Dr G 16:02 All right. So this would make sense. On some level, I think you're right to assume that the patricians are largely in charge of organising elections. I think this is a delegated function. How that actually looks right now, in this very early period of the Republic, I don't think we're quite sure. But it would make sense for magistrates to organise and lead that and that's certainly how it develops later on. Yes. Hmm. Interesting. Dr Rad 16:34 The plebeians aren't fooled by this entirely. I mean, obviously, they're full enough, not for beginners. But when I say plebeians, I mean the Iciii. they reenter our story, Dr. G, excellent. Yes. Now the Icilii are a very prominent plebeian family who apparently were like the only people worthy of being named the plebeian side of things last fsra because they tend to pop up in our sauces when there is a particularly big moment or a huge development in terms of patrician plebeian relations taking place. And last episode definitely was what with you know, a plebeian becoming auaestor, and, you know, then all the conflict of the order stuff that ensued as a result of that. Yeah, they do become Dr G 17:23 synonymous with probably in uprisings and sort of movements and shifts for power from the plebeian side. Dr Rad 17:33 Yes, but the patricians very carefully had arranged it so that we apparently had three of the Icilii as tribunes of the plebs last episode. Dr G 17:44 I mean, I don't know if I believe that, but okay. Dr Rad 17:49 Yeah, I mean, this is what we're told that I mean, I like to believe it, because if we don't believe it, then who's trailing the senators or the consuls you know, trench coats and spying on them? Yeah, exactly. Which is apparently what happened. But anyway, so the Icilii are aware of what's going on. But the patricians had made sure that they couldn't be tribune to the plebs, again, in 408. And they'd also made sure that these particular men couldn't run to be military Tribune. So they've made sure that these very popular plebeian leaders weren't going to be on the ballot as its were Dr G 18:30 interesting. Okay. So the capacity for the plebeians to be able to vote in people that they know are effective, that sort of sit within their social mileau is off the table. So not only is the the voting allocation confused, and there's some weird names in there, but the names that they would want to vote for haven't made it on? Dr Rad 18:51 Well, yes, I mean, the Icilii, the Icilians, whatever you want to call them, they certainly strident and they're not afraid to obviously stand up for puppy and rights, etc. So I think taking them out of the running certainly is a bit of a blow because obviously, they would have pushed for something quite radical, if we're going with the storyline that we presented with, which is that faces a family trait this runs, you know, throughout all the members of their gens for generations, you know? Dr G 19:22 Yeah, the Romans are very much into that kind of thing. Like what you pick up through your family line to find your character in many respects. Dr Rad 19:30 Yes, so they clearly I know what's going on, but there's not much that they can do about it at this point in time. Let's segue now Dr. G. To a rumour that arrives in room External Relations. The Volscians in the Aequians have got back together and apparently stronger than ever. I mean, I feel like I say that every time Dr G 19:54 they're back. Dr Rad 19:56 Yeah, now it's levy very helpfully tells me that maybe This is related to the fact that we did have the scandal of Carventum that we've talked about in the past where there seems to be trading hands between the Romans and their enemies at this point in time. We don't know where it is, but it's somewhere in here. And it's going backwards and forwards like a hot potato. At the moment, the Volsican and I guess some Aequians forces have managed to get that back from Rome. So they are perhaps feeling you know, a bit smug, good about themselves strutting around, you know, or it could be that they are livid Dr. G, because they lost a place called Verrugo. Yes, either way, they've got fire under their asses. Dr G 20:48 Yeah, so we've got this situation where we think these places are east of Rome, and sort of SE and sitting on the juncture between what is Roman territory? What is Aequians territory and what is coming up from the south the tip of Volscian territory. So this kind of contested area between the three groups is now hot potatoes. Hitting 408. Yes, Dr Rad 21:14 definitely. Now, this is where we got another location coming into the story. The people from Look, I'm gonna say is Antiates? Antiastes? Dr G 21:27 Are they some people from antium? Yeah, Dr Rad 21:30 I think so. Yeah. The Antiates. The AnTIates. Dr G 21:36 I'm just gonna say the people from Antium. I'm not gonna try that one. Dr Rad 21:42 The anti 80s? Yeah. Anti 80s. Yeah, the anti 80s. So they send envoys to the Volscians and Aequians, which basically says this in case you miss that very subtle explanation. They were calling them chickens. Because they were like how and embarrassment that? Okay, sure. You have Carventum back in your possession. But you did that by remaining behind the walls? Safety. Safety seriously? Where's the bravery in that? And they allow the Romans to capture Verrugo? All right, Dr G 22:31 so So you're telling me that the Volscii and the Aequians are copying some derived version from the people of antium? Is this what's going on? Okay. All right. antium is sort of directly south of Rome on the bay? Yes, yeah. As you're heading around towards Campania. So it's got this kind of section where, if we're talking about antium, and I think we are Yeah, Rome has had this sort of conflict with the Volscii over time around control of Antium. And they had that moment where they put some settlers in there and stuff like that. But antium is a bit of a live wire, and really just sort of picks and chooses whose side it's on, depending on what's going on. And this means that the volsky is getting laughed at by people a little bit to the west, and a little bit to the south. But they're also facing a situation where they've gotten back together with the Aequians. So, you know, there's some mixed feelings here. They're feeling bolstered up and strengthened by their renewed friendship with the Aequii, but they're also feeling a little bit like antium is not respecting them the way that they should. Yes. Dr Rad 23:41 And I think that they're concerned. I mean, as we said, there is a bit of a trend happening in Rome at this point in time after being actually kind of a little quiet on the expansion front for actually a number of decades. And is and this would make sense, because we've talked about the fact that economically, it seems to be in a bit of a tough time in that sort of middle to late century that we're in. But at this point in time, as we're getting more towards the tip into a new century, it does seem like Rome is not just you know, finding people when they have to, or dealing with kind of like territory control, it does seem like they are more interested in actual expansion adding to their territory. And that's kind of what we're seeing over time here. And that's, I think, what people in the air supposedly picking up on as well. So they're saying, how low Are you not seeing the warning signs, guys? The Romans are clearly just going to keep sending out armies and then once they've managed to secure a triumph, they'll just set up more colonies. And they're like, did you know that the Romans have got all your stuff? Did you know that they've divided it all up? Did you know that they had taken Ferentinum and just given it away to to Hernici, did you know this? Did you know this and the Volscians? Dr G 25:04 Are you paying attention? Wake up, she Dr Rad 25:07 Aequians Like, you know what we did know this, because live, he told us. Dr G 25:13 I read that book. You know what, when you put Dr Rad 25:15 it like that, and you put it all together, I'm pretty angry, we're all pretty angry. So the envoys start travelling around and enlisting young men, and people from antium, the Volscians, and the Aequians, all eventually meet up Antium and establish a camp there and then they just sit back and wait for the Romans to arrive. Dr G 25:44 We just gotta kick out heels back when near the seaside, it's gonna be nice. It's gonna be nice. Dr Rad 25:49 Yeah. Now, as you've highlighted, definitely antium It is a place of interest. It has been a while since we have explicitly mentioned it. If listeners want to check out some stuff on our team in the past, please go back to our episode on 459 BC. But it does kind of make sense that there would be potential conflict over this area, as you said, at this point in time, given that it seems like the Romans are making a concerted effort to once and for all, get the Volscians the Aequians out of this area and make sure that their hold on territory in this region is secure, because and it's obviously it's part of this narrative that Livy's constructing because it doesn't really make sense that the people from antium would potentially be that concerned about like, say, Verrugo, no, I think they'd probably not be concerned about Verrugo at all. Really? No, but it's obviously being constructed so that we understand why I guess these people are coming together. Dr G 26:55 Hmm, I think I also before we move on, I'll offer a small correction on the location of antium. So it is where modern Anzio Yes, so we're talking a little bit south of Rome, but it's on the coast, not that far from modern Rome, if you're driving a car, but like a reasonable March if you're on foot. So these people historically considered to be a different linguistic group. They're not Latin speakers necessarily, though, there's bound to be some of them by now. But this whole sort of area that sort of forms or ring around Roman influence in every direction is starting to come under more pressure. That's pretty clear. Yes. Dr Rad 27:36 Yeah. And that'll make sense because the Volscians in the Aequians are also not Latin peoples either. So yeah, well make sense. So anyway, the room is of course hear about all of this and they are abuzz with the news of what is happening the Senate decide that the fact that three peoples have came to this is clearly an emergency Do many people are against we must Yeah, we can deal with the Volscians and Aequians, but you throw Antium in there. I don't think so. Dr G 28:07 Especially after they've already gone out of their way to conquer antium at least what they Dr Rad 28:12 definitely have. antium is definitely meant to be there. Dr G 28:17 Yes, I'd say Rome sees antium as part of its broader sphere of influence and the idea that antium doesn't agree is not okay, Dr Rad 28:26 absolutely. So the Senate decide that because this is an emergency it's done for a dictator. Dr G 28:33 Well, that results that narrative quick for me, Dr Rad 28:36 thank you. However, it doesn't go as smoothly as the Romans might have been hoping because to the military tribune is decided they didn't like this decision Dr G 28:50 is that the two that got left out and weren't chosen to be master Dr Rad 28:54 has something to do with a pony. But So Julius and Cornelius okay, they decide to have a right old bitch session about the fact that they've just been elected into this premier magistracy and outs being seemingly taken away from them. Dr G 29:13 I was gonna say it's all lemons over there for those two years. Dr Rad 29:17 Their unhappiness was so palpable, that the leading senators complained that the military tribunes were not being very respectful of senatorial control. Rude goodness, hi, nay, oh, dear. So much so that they even turn to the tribune of the plebs, and they say, Hey, would you mind weighing in here and using some of your powers? Dr G 29:39 I mean, this is a big moment. I'm really sad that I don't have any narrative material now for the Senate to rock up to the tribune of the plebs behind you. We don't know who those guys are. So this clearly doesn't work out very well for them. But what did the Senate think that the tribune of the plebs are going to do? I'm not sure that they necessarily care about this petty infighting amongst patrician le Well, Dr Rad 30:00 I mean, they can in that they always like to see the patricians divided amongst themselves. In fact, they're actually ecstatic that the senators are fighting. Dr G 30:10 I mean, it's good to see a bit of an internal collapse over there. But Dr Rad 30:15 you're right, you're right in the sense that it doesn't seem to really be within their remit to deal with Dr G 30:19 this. I was gonna say so this is not really something that the tribune of the plebs would necessarily deal with. I mean, they're allowed to sort of step in for plebeian matters. And obviously, they might contentiously make a situation where the patricians aren't getting along worse by siding with one or the other. Exactly. Dr Rad 30:39 I mean, there's this like weird reference to the fact that they'd use their powers before against consuls had gotten out of hand. And I'm like, well, but in what context, like to do with uppity consuls who were causing issues for the plebeians like, Dr G 30:57 yeah, I was gonna say, generally, it's an interference on something like the levy, or, you know, turn a turn up when the consuls are giving speeches to be disruptive. I'm not sure how they how the Senate thinks the tribunes are going to support them. It's Dr Rad 31:12 one of those moments where like, I had a brass back through and I'm like, I don't remember what this could possibly be referring to. Unless it's like something that hasn't been mentioned, because we have talked about the fact that the tribune of the plebs aren't always actually on the side of the plebs, or at least, I should say, the dispossessed per year. Dr G 31:35 Yes, they might be on the side of the very elite. plebeians, who in many respects are indistinguishable from the patricians. So Dr Rad 31:44 Look, if anybody else has a clear recollection of what an earth LIvy is talking about here, please enlighten me because I couldn't figure it out. Yeah. Offer a Dr G 31:52 comment on our website. Tweet us or send us a message on Instagram. Anyway, so Dr Rad 32:00 apart from getting some popcorn ready, and sitting back to enjoy the show that tribute is refused to have anything to do with this situation. Because they're like, you know, what? Why should we help people that don't even think we're purpose citizens or even human beings as you made very clear last year snap? Yeah. They're like, maybe, if all the magistracies were just open to anyone, you know, like a patrician could be attributed the class, which actually we have seen. So technically, that's true. Oh, you know, a plebeian could be a consul and there wasn't any distinction, then maybe the tribunes would be I don't know, remotely interested in helping out the Senate here and making sure that the magistrates are doing what they're supposed to do and behaving. But you know what? That's fantasy land. Again, as you made very clear in 409, the patricians just do whatever they want. They don't even care about the laws. And so you know, what the tribunes are going to do whatever the hell they want to, oh, boy. Dr G 32:58 Okay, so we've got a little bit of like chaos rules in Rome, meanwhile, on the fringes of Roman territory of influence, all of their non friends slash neighbours, banding together with some sort of dastardly plan. And Dr Rad 33:16 so because there's apparently no help from the tribunes, although dubious, the Romans still very much caught up in the internal drama, even though they're facing a huge external issue right here. And that's what they should be focusing on, because Julius and Cornelius are still going on and on and on about how unjust it is that they couldn't just run the campaign themselves. I mean, hello, it's in the title, military tribute and with constant power, we were elected to the position. I'm in Hello, they could totally do it, put him up put him Dr G 33:55 I think this may be indicates that even the patricians did not have confidence in the outcome of this botched election process, where they threw in a whole bunch of names. And they got a whole bunch of people coming out the other side, including and Ahala, who seems to be the only one who's making it for himself as well, sir. But nobody was expecting that family to make a comeback. And then the other two are like we come from illustrious families. Why are we getting the gig? I can only imagine the dinner table conversation between Publius Cornelius Cossus military Tribune with consular power, and he's possible cousin of some kind, Publius Cornelius Rutilus Cossus, who becomes the dictator and just being like, why why would you do this to me? was so close Dr Rad 34:43 to have my name and could you? Why are you always doing this to me? I hate you. Any anyway, so speaking of Ahala this is where he enters our story. So you might have noticed that he's been very silent on these matters, even though he is also a military tribune with consular power. If Dr G 35:01 I assume he only talks by doing armpit movements it's just a little a little trumpet going on. Dr Rad 35:11 Then he finally breaks his silence. And he says, Look, it's obvious what I think about this situation. Any decent, good. Roman always puts the state ahead of himself. And he was just sitting there, with his head in his hands, hoping that his colleagues would come to their senses. concede to what the Senate has decreed is the best course of action. But now, it's got to the point where the tribunes of the plebs, the plebs, Dr. G, are being asked to keep them in line, and it's obviously gone far enough. Oh, Look, I Dr G 35:51 feel like that's a very safe and easy position for this man to take considering keys benefited from an upgrade. Shoo, shoo. Dr Rad 36:01 So Ahala is like, Look, if it was up to me, I would just let them talk themselves out. I wake up to themselves and they're in good time. But there's a war on people. This is urgent, hence the dictator situation. And he's like, I have to put Rome first. And if the Senate thinks that a dictator is the course to take, then a dictator should be chosen that very night, Dr G 36:28 huh? The drama. Dr Rad 36:30 Now, of course, everyone is very impressed by this because we know that the Romans cannot help but swoon for someone who allegedly is putting the state before any personal motivations. Dr G 36:45 Women fainting in the streets, like Dr Rad 36:48 Oh, in the streets, I think Nefertiti in the privacy of their homes. Now, this I might just add, really ties into a theme that has been detected in this particular section of Levy, which is that of modern Rottier. Yes, just a little side note anyway, so Ahala choosers Publius Cornelius as dictator and then Cornelius says, You know what? Ahala, You're allright. And therefore, he is chosen to be master the horse because of course, he wants to make a point. The dictator is like you see, power comes to those who don't actually seek it, which again, is another thing that the Romans cannot get enough of. Yeah, Dr G 37:33 there's nothing like the reluctant leader. Dr Rad 37:35 Honestly, whenever anybody starts going to town on Gladiator. I'm like, You know what? I can't help but love that movie. Because it is so right. That the hero is like, what me? You want me to do this job? I couldn't possibly Yeah, Dr G 37:53 it is embodying some really particular Roman values. Now Dr Rad 37:58 as it turns out, this whole War and emergency situation was very anticlimactic. It was a very easy battle and it was very quickly over which Dr G 38:06 where did they end up fighting antium I mean, this is how little little detail I have. Oh, okay, so they they head out to antium do the Dr Rad 38:15 rally where the people from Antium and the Volscians in the Aequians were just like a now we wait. Dr G 38:21 We're just gonna sit here and see what happens next. Oh, no, the Romans turned up. Now Dr Rad 38:26 the Rome is obviously because they've had such an easy battle. They had lots of energy for pillaging and rampaging through Volscian territory. Not only do they manage to steamroll the enemy, but they also apparently managed to capture a fortress at Lake Fucinus. Dr G 38:44 This is outside the ken of my knowledge. Dr Rad 38:47 I think this this occasion will come up a bit actually, I remember it because of Agrippina the younger and Claudius having a bit of a thing here later on. We'll get to that you know 20 or 30 years it stands mentioning that only do they capture a fortress but they also apparently capture 3000 men as their prisoners of war. Yeah, Dr G 39:07 okay impressive. Dr Rad 39:09 Yeah. The remainder of the of the enemies just try and hide behind city walls where they can and just really leave that territory to the Romans I was like yeah, we're not gonna we're not gonna stop you Dr G 39:20 All right, so a resounding victory for row Dr Rad 39:22 it is now that geography is a little off again. So it doesn't 100% seem to add up if you just like looking at naps, etc. Yeah, Dr G 39:35 I was gonna say I'm like one why the Aequians all the way over in antium for instance, Dr Rad 39:40 because the Antiates called them chicken. Dr G 39:42 Well, it's true. Anytime somebody calls me the chicken I immediately go over to where they are like OI. Dr Rad 39:50 If Back to the Future has taught us nothing, it's that calling someone a chicken is the worst thing that you can do it but it doesn't entirely make sense that why, winning at Antium, the Romans would be like with capture that fort by the Fucine Lake. Dr G 40:05 the Fucine Lake, the Lago Fucino it says that it's going to be in Abruzzo? So, which is the region that is sort of next to and south of Lazio? Right. Right. Right. But the trouble with that is that still seems like it's too far away from where we are. Right? Dr Rad 40:28 Exactly. It does seem to be too far away. And given that Verrugo, and Carventum seem to be about Latium, the geography. Yeah, I would expect that like to be somewhere nearby as well. Yeah, exactly. It just doesn't entirely add up in the account that we've got here. It may be because Livy is using a different source material, or at least he's in transition with his source material, and therefore, is trying to pull various things together, or he's been following one source for some period of time, and now he's switched to another source. And therefore, the details are kind of contradicting themselves. And this is the kind of stuff that people cite when they say, That lady is not a great historian, because he's not necessarily stopping and thinking in himself. Wait a second. Dr G 41:20 Yeah, Look, I mean, if you've only got three books to read, they're all good books. Well, I Dr Rad 41:24 mean, for example, I think we have got to this part so far. So I'm going to mention it. There has been a point where, where Livy's is, obviously labour, the fact that the patricians are wealthy because of the land that they control and own all that kind of stuff. But in another part of his narrative, he talks about the patricians being able to like rock up with waggons, full of bronze. So you know, just a few things here. We're like, I don't know if this is all applicable to this time period. I don't know if this all makes sense. It we can't be sure, obviously, of what's going on. But yeah, they're just like little things like that, where it seems to be, you know, maybe a bit of confusion in terms of the details that he's got here. Well, Dr G 42:05 and fair enough. I mean, he's dealing with a period that's well before his own time, the source material is bound to be quite limited. And I don't know about the process of authorship either. Like, generally speaking, we understand that writers like Livy are probably not putting pen to paper themselves. They're probably dictating to somebody who writes it down. Dr Rad 42:29 A young woman with spectacles. Yes. Dr G 42:33 And she's doing shorthand the whole time. But to what extent they might go back and read over the things that they dictate. Yes, exactly, exactly. I don't know, like, what are the processes like within that? So there's lots that we don't know, which might explain some of the sort of changes in details and the odd anomalies that come through that wouldn't fly with a publisher nowadays? Yes, Dr Rad 42:57 exactly. Exactly. We can't help them to the same status, because what they're doing is inherently more difficult than typing something up. That Dr G 43:03 is true. So are there any more events in this year from Livy's? Perspective? Okay. All right. Okay. I will, I will hold tight on my little clump of Dr Rad 43:17 detail. So obviously, after Yeah, after all the raping and pillaging and all that kind of stuff. The Dictator heads back to Rome. I mean, he was hardly in charge. Dr. G. It was a blink of an eye really, after all this fuss, and he resigned his position as any good day dictator would do. Now, there was nothing said about what was going to happen the next year, as in, we're going to have military tribunes. Oh, we're going to have consuls it just goes straight to an election for military tributes, which is interesting, given all the concern, you know, that was, has been exhibited, historically, by the patricians over this particular type of election. Livy is wondering if maybe it's because there has been a dictator I'm not really sure if that's like, I don't know, mess with people's heads or something like that. But the patricians are certainly worried they like are all patricians on board here. Shouldn't we be worried about this? The whole tribune of the plebs thing, and this year, that seems concerning. I feel like we're not a unified force anymore guys. Dr G 44:28 Rome is politically falling apart. So Dr Rad 44:31 as in the election for the year that we're currently in, they make sure that the worst plebeians are chosen to run alongside some worthwhile ones, to make the people hate the plebeian candidates as a whole, and then only chose the very, very best people to run from the Senate and patrician, who live he lumps in as being like one group basically. And therefore, spoilers. We're going to have all patricians for the next year as well. out. But also people that had also served as military tributes before, which might say something about their family, you know, being on the rise. But it might also say something about this, you know, combative, aggressive expansion kind of place we seem to be in right now. Dr G 45:19 Yeah, I think this tells us something about what is going on with Rome and her neighbours at this point in time that they've decided that they need more people who can command armies, although they did make an interesting choice this year to just subsume all of those into a dictator. Yes. Okay. So I don't have any details to do with anything to do. Sad, sad news. I have Diodorus Siculus. Great. And he gives us the names of the military treatments with consular power. And they're Dr Rad 45:51 all correct. Well, girls, for you Deidara. Dr G 45:56 Nice work Diodorus. Now, he places these events in around 405 to 404 BCE, which makes sense because he's chronology is running at a slightly different pace to be Roman chronology for these things are a few years out, and that's fine. But this means that we're in the last phase of the Peloponnesian War. So to put the broader situation of Rome in its Mediterranean global context, the Peloponnesian War is in its final phase, it's about to wrap up. And things are still holding up in Sicily as well, with the Carthaginians. So they've done some raising of some cities, they've jumped in there. And they're, they're still sort of milling about people in Sicily, which are mostly Greek settlers at this point in time, and like the Carthaginians, North Africa. So there's a lot of that going on. And then part of what Carthage decides to do. And this might tell us something about their reach in this period of history. They decide to embark whilst they're also having this conflict in Sicily to embark on another campaign against this Gideons which are nowhere near Sicily, Dr Rad 47:08 I was going to say that seems random. It Dr G 47:12 does on the face of it. But then I think about Carthage as being one of these Punic colony settlements. And so the Punic peoples in general, and the North Africans are a very seafaring group of people in this period of history. That's how they do all of their trade. They're very much interested in being all across the Mediterranean and as far as they understand it. So Scythia is going to be around Greece, keep going up, get to the top of that part of the Mediterranean, which is going to be near where we have modern Istanbul, for instance. And that kind of region to the to the north, and to the west of that is going to be ancient skills. Yes. So they embark on this sort of quest, like a war on two fronts , two Naval fronts? Why not, we're Carthaginians, we could do it. And while, that's going on. The Sicilian Greeks get together with the Libyans, another group of North Africans and the Iberians, who are the coastal people in the Spanish peninsula, and they decide to then also get involved in this Scythian conflict, to try and sail behind the Carthaginians and just create disturbances for them to ruin their supply chains and things like this. So while Rome is very near actually placed, fighting it out with their very close neighbours trying to figure out who they are and how they're going to run themselves. And it always sounds like at this point in time, Rome is on the brink of a really big collapse where it doesn't get it together in time, and will get overrun by everybody around them. The broader peoples in the Mediterranean are doing lots of big things. The Peloponnesian War is huge. What the Carthaginians are doing, if we believe Diodorus Siculus, with their multiple naval fronts is massive in terms of its undertaking. Yeah. So Rome is a really small player right now on this Mediterranean stage. Dr Rad 49:16 It definitely is. And on that note, Dr. G, I think it might be time for the partial pick. All right, Dr. J, tell us what is the partial picker that Dr G 49:32 the partial pick, we are going to write Rome by its own standards spoilered I think it's going to do great. And there are five categories of which they can gain a maximum of 10 Golden Eagles. So for a total of a possible 50 Gold eagles, which would mean Rome is at the height of all of its powers. We will see how they do this time round for the year 408 BC to Dr Rad 49:59 tell me Dr G, What's our first category? Dr G 50:02 Well, first of all, we have military clout. How well have the Romans equip themselves in battle? I always Dr Rad 50:09 say, like pretty well, according to this. I mean, it's certainly not like the best battle because we don't get any details. And it apparently was really easy for them. So I'm not sure I want to give them too much credit. But Dr G 50:21 well, that might be a sign that they're great. Well, yeah, no, that's Dr Rad 50:25 what I mean. Like, sure. I'll give them something but like, I don't want to go really any higher than like, I think a seven or an eight. Because it seems okay. Just seems too easy. Dr G 50:35 They did also take what 3000 people captive, that's a huge number and Dr Rad 50:39 allegedly captured a fort, although, who the hell knows? Dr G 50:42 We don't know where it is. We're not sure Dr Rad 50:45 we know. We know where it is. But it just doesn't seem to quite make sense. So I'm not sure if this narrative entirely adds up. All right, Dr G 50:54 well, let's say a seven is pretty impressive. Yes. We don't get any of the dramatic details, which would make it even more impressive. Dr Rad 51:03 I've gotta I've gotta hold it back for when we get those really impressive ones. Yeah. Dr G 51:07 Yeah. Okay. Our second category is diplomacy. negotiation? Dr Rad 51:12 Well, as we always say, I don't know that you have much of that going on. When you're at war, Dr G 51:19 I don't think they asked antium to stand down. We didn't get a narrative where they sent any embassy out to be like, Guys, have you considered Dr Rad 51:27 exactly not doing that? And internally, they're also not doing great. So I think I'm gonna give it a zero. Actually. Dr G 51:35 I agree. Expansion. Well, okay. Dr Rad 51:38 I mean, we have got some capturing, you know, happening here, control team, you know, Dr G 51:44 yes. But does that count as expansion? It wasn't necessarily clear that they decided to reestablish some sort of colonial outpost in and Dr Rad 51:56 this is the thing I feel like, I feel like the implication of the narrative is that they they've had a relationship with this place in the past. And I feel like this is really like, reestablishing that they are, in fact, in control of this area. Dr G 52:12 Yeah. All right. Give them a one for that. Dr Rad 52:15 Way. What about this apparent fought apparent for it? Dr G 52:19 Where is it? You know, Dr Rad 52:20 how big is that? Well, it's a few saying, like, I don't know how big it is. Dr G 52:25 I mean, to feel like we should give them a two Yeah. To the fourth category is weird to us. Not really. Dr Rad 52:33 I mean, you know, Ahala has a moment but it's more speechifying kind of moment. Sometimes. speechifying can be weird. It is but I don't feel like it's that grand a speech, you know? No. Dr G 52:45 And it doesn't have any of those sort of classic. We're tourists kind of elements to it, of like displaying wounds and things like this and and then we've definitely got the other two military Tribune's who don't quit themselves, well, it's sort of like, they're kind of just like whinging a little bit about their situation. Dr Rad 53:06 Even Livy's says the dictator kind of had a very easy time. He was like, Yeah, you know, he's actually probably kind of lucky, he didn't really face any major action just got to return home alive. Dr G 53:16 You know, quietly. Nice, nice. All right. So Dr Rad 53:20 I think also is a Zero. All right. Dr G 53:24 And the final category is the citizen score. Look, Dr Rad 53:27 it's not the worst we've ever seen. But again, I don't feel like it's a great time to be a citizen because there is still this conflict of the orders stuff nagging away, they're, you know, they're not get able to get any pavilions into power, not that a citizen is a plebeian. But to be honest, we've actually kind of treated it that way. Dr G 53:50 Well, and also the way that these elections are described by Livy as unfolding with a deliberate sort of confusion in order to create a particular outcome. I think that's in a way that's a dishonest approach to the citizen body. Dr Rad 54:08 Yeah, well, that is an identity again, they've done it twice. Yeah, Dr G 54:13 how dare they? Dr Rad 54:14 Yeah. And so I mean, Look, the war is not the worst, it doesn't sound like lots of Romans died, there is no fight against the levy, Dr G 54:22 I think maybe a five then so like, on the balance, it's not well, it's it's not terrible, but it's not great. It's kind of just like the halfway house with like, you know, what this person calls to being a citizen around? Dr Rad 54:35 sure that that's how we've given citizens scores. Dr G 54:40 I'm allowed to change my mind. Dr Rad 54:42 Sure. Look, I still feel like it's got to be weighted on the downside because of the election thing. Like, I don't you mean, like it's not the worst, but I feel like it's still not great. I would be more inclined to give a three How about we cut it in half and go for four years and that's why I said three All right, Dr. G, that means that we have wound up with the Romans on a grand total of 13 out of 50 possible Golden Eagles Dr G 55:12 13 Oh, well, that's unlucky. But Dr Rad 55:16 I think it's because our rating system is quite frankly, all over the place. Dr G 55:22 I Look, I mean, I, it depends on how I feel on the day. I don't claim to be consistent and Rome is always changing. So Dr Rad 55:31 it's true. All right. Well, I Look forward to seeing how this whole you know election fraud. I get that it's not that but I Look forward to seeing how this election strategy plays out and 407 BCE. Looking Dr G 55:43 forward to it. I'll catch you soon Hi. Dr Rad 55:54 Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today we would like to say a special Salve to Arne, Sally, Desmond, Lisa and Peep, some of our recent Patreon members. Thank you so much guys for your support. However, if you've just got mugged out in the dangerous streets of ancient Rome, please, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. And that goes for a book as well. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome. Transcribed by https://otter.ai