Latest / Project Podcast / Lessons learned from Crossrail with ex-CEO Mark Wild

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Lessons learned from Crossrail with ex-CEO Mark Wild · Project Podcast

0:08
Hello and welcome to the APM podcast brought to you by the
0:11
childhood body for the project profession in 2022, a PM is
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celebrating its 50th Anniversary.
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So throughout the year the OPM podcasters meeting some of the
0:20
movers and shakers who have shaped the project professional
0:23
across the past. Few decades will be asking them
0:26
how the profession has evolved where the untapped potential
0:29
might lie. And what the future might hold,
0:31
my name is Emma divita and I'm the editor of project apm's
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quarterly Journal this episode Andrew Saunders business
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journalist and regular. Contributor, to project sits
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down with Mark wild ex-ceo of crossrail as one of the largest
0:45
Transportation programs, anywhere.
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In the world crossrail has had a high-profile from the outset,
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but the programs are construct. The Elizabeth line, a new high
0:54
frequency. Commuter Rail line through
0:55
London has often found itself in the headlines for the wrong
0:58
reasons. Mark took over as CEO in 2018,
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as a time of Highly publicized budget and deadline overruns
1:06
fast forward to may this year and Mark stepped down the CEO
1:09
following the long-delayed but much celebrated opening of the
1:12
Elizabeth line having successfully turned around such
1:15
a complex and Fort program. In this podcast Mark shares his
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insights into what went wrong in the early years of crossrail,
1:21
the changes who made upon becoming CEO and lessons for
1:25
future complex programs. A p.m. members will be able to
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read an extended interview with Mark and the Autumn edition of
1:31
project Journal out in September.
1:33
And Thank you so much for talking to me today.
1:39
I'm sure you're very busy, man, and I appreciate it.
1:42
I'm looking forward to our conversation.
1:44
So let's I mean, I supposed to kind of start with crossrail or
1:47
bit of crossrail, what's the first thing that you do?
1:49
What was the first thing that you did?
1:51
When you rode across own, you've got this new got to turn around
1:53
this tanker. Yeah, well, first me first, I've
1:56
got to acknowledge that, you know, I was I was the boss of
2:00
the tube. So I was running, London
2:01
Underground and I was on the board of Crossroads so it would
2:05
not be true to say that. You know, I came in on some kind
2:08
of white charger and sort of the doubt, I and I think the reason
2:12
I might have an interesting perspective is, you know, I'm
2:16
part of the problem as well. You know, we always sitting on
2:18
the board when this occurred. So, first and foremost, your day
2:21
one wasn't completely unknown thing to me.
2:25
But first thing I did was, I think, you know, is a lot of
2:28
people know, one of the bad things that happened in
2:31
crossrail, was it that had been demobilized, you know, we lost
2:35
we always should be a thousand people in the client
2:38
organization and where I took over it was like 600.
2:40
So we lost critical mass. So the very first thing I did
2:43
was I rapid re inflation of people.
2:48
I think when you lose critical mass and you've got gaps, the
2:52
first thing that I did was we got it, we got a new Senior
2:54
Team, you know, we're going to have got Collin, Brown has our
2:57
technical director. We started with Peter Henderson,
2:59
our shoes are kind of program director and we went to Bechtel
3:03
Jacobs and everybody. And I Just got my bag and ball
3:06
out and said, look, I need help. So the very first thing I did
3:08
was focus on the rien Flesh and of the team because we were, we
3:13
were in a lot of trouble. You know, people were leaving
3:16
and the Really key people left, you know, the program, controls
3:19
character, safety director, all of these things that happen.
3:22
So yeah and it's still I mean it still didn't you take me losing
3:25
critical mass you lose momentum as well that the chronology was
3:30
in the July of that year. I think July or August.
3:33
It was clear that we couldn't Continue.
3:36
And I didn't take over till December, so there's an
3:38
interregnum, which Simon Wright. Who is the program director
3:43
acting CEO at the time. Did a really excellent job.
3:45
Simon actually, but credit time again, as soon as the black hole
3:49
was developed revealed, I should have left immediately so that
3:54
lack of momentum was really the critical point.
3:57
It was a, you know, that moment there were eight or nine
4:00
thousand people on my project productivity was we measured
4:05
Immediately, it was like fifteen to twenty percent were spending
4:09
a hundred and forty million every four weeks on the purpose
4:12
of the project was stalled. But consuming vast resources,
4:17
you know, not to be honest, very, very, very difficult
4:20
situation and he will think that you bitten off more than you
4:23
could chew when you learned it in there.
4:25
No, no, because custom in the guts of this project, a
4:28
fantastic. I knew all about it.
4:31
I had an inkling cells on the board, really about I think if I
4:35
could could say, one thing about me, I'm the reason that we
4:38
brought the collapse occurred was there was me with a couple
4:41
of colleagues on the board. Said look, we can't continue.
4:44
So now I knew, I knew the DNA was good and also I was backed
4:49
by the commissioner, the mayor, the permanent secretary so and I
4:54
also knew I was going to get on him eggs as my chair.
4:58
So if you have that sort of backing and you know, a bit
5:00
about it and you know the projects fundamentally sound.
5:04
Now I wasn't done that at all. Butter that all about.
5:06
Yeah, I'm I think, you know, they did one of the reasons that
5:09
I was members are good choice to do.
5:10
It was that I already knew about it.
5:12
I think if somebody landed cold into it while I don't really
5:17
know what they would have done. Yeah, that's interesting.
5:19
That isn't it because the that sort of the net that the natural
5:22
normal response, standard response in that sort of
5:24
processor at situation is to do precisely.
5:26
That is to get someone who, you know, has been around the block
5:29
a bit but isn't involved in that particular organization and
5:33
parachute them in and get them too.
5:35
To do their thing. Yeah, I mean, I thought when I
5:37
landed actually the first thought I had was, could I stop
5:40
the project could? I could we somehow demobilize
5:43
the project and restarted? And I thought, well, it's
5:46
impossible to stop a project until March 20 20 came along and
5:49
then actually, again, you could do it.
5:52
But of course, that was a pandemic crisis.
5:54
So, yeah, it was impossible to stop.
5:56
They had huge momentum. Nearly 10,000 people on the job.
6:00
So I think if somebody knew it landed, it would interfere with.
6:04
The first thing I did was Reinstate the senior team
6:07
really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's
6:09
coming. It's not like, I guess it's not
6:10
easy to hire people back into project locally, there is it, I
6:14
don't know. Maybe people start to think you
6:17
might be career limiting to get involved, something like that.
6:20
Well, two things, it's an iconic project.
6:25
So I think, you know, even though it was getting B lived in
6:28
the press, all those who know in the world nor the, this is a
6:33
real proper job, you know, one of the top Jobs in the world.
6:36
The second thing was - are reflecting the team.
6:39
It was a bit simpler than that, really.
6:41
I simply went to see all of our supply chain Partners CEOs and
6:45
chairs and said, you're gonna, you're gonna help me.
6:49
And to a person, you know, whether it's Bechtel, WS P, PR
6:53
Consulting cost in the whole supply chain.
6:57
At the most senior level completely came on board.
7:01
And my, my, my offer to them, was complete transparency.
7:05
And Try my best. No games, not know, kind of
7:08
politics there started. The deal was to give me their
7:10
best people and they did so double the recipe.
7:14
Mark, when seen Mike Nesmith and asking for a guy called predict
7:17
massoud of who was inaudible system, integrator had been
7:21
degraded. The Victoria line was at that
7:24
moment. Working in Tel Aviv though and
7:26
within 24 hours, pretty basudev was the head of our system
7:29
integration. And I think that that's speed of
7:34
re inflation was Of the, the key thing really do, you knew where
7:37
to go and find you knew that you knew who to look for and where
7:40
to go and ask. Yeah.
7:41
We've made a few mistakes, you know.
7:43
We, if I hire 300 people, we might have got, you know, 20 or
7:47
30 people wrong obviously. But yeah.
7:51
And I guess the other thing about me was my background, my
7:54
background was predominantly and system integration.
7:56
So, I kind of knew I knew these people and put the big message,
8:01
I think. Is that, when, when, when the
8:04
proverbial did hit the On everybody really came to the
8:07
party and nobody nobody. Nobody whether you're a
8:10
politician or a board member or a stakeholder or its supply
8:14
chain leader. Nobody did not help me nobody.
8:18
No Berries. So I think good Esprit de corps
8:22
and I think everybody realized that it was a meant something
8:24
for the whole country as is evidence.
8:26
Now you know you look you look at how people think about the
8:28
project now which is like some kind of Stellar thing and I
8:33
think we all knew that when it did land.
8:35
And an open, it would have the absolute wild factor and
8:37
re-establish our reputation for major programs are.
8:40
Then there's a question isn't, I mean, this is the kind of debate
8:44
Kairos, rolls around. They're kind of project
8:46
management, Universe, more, or less constantly.
8:48
I could, I think, is it inevitable that big projects are
8:51
always be late and over budget? You hear people say that but it
8:54
strikes me as being a bit of that sort of counsel of Despair
8:57
that really surely. They shouldn't be, something's
8:58
wrong. That's the case, two things, two
9:01
perspectives, contemporary perspective.
9:03
If you look at the research, From Oxford, particularly you
9:06
will find that. Yes, the vast majority of major
9:08
programs around the world are late.
9:10
Another pigeon actually crossrail is 27 percent late and
9:14
over budget. It's actually not that bad.
9:18
You would say that that's a contemporary perspective.
9:22
So you're right. So yeah, in context, really
9:25
evidence shows, all these programs are letting over budget
9:28
or their underestimated. To start with one or two.
9:31
Here's my take them and the reason for Change and Why cross
9:35
from others? I think three big things are
9:39
happening in the world now that are really significant in major
9:42
programs first year. They getting bigger cross.
9:45
Real used to be the biggest in Europe and the fifth biggest in
9:48
the world. Now crossrail wouldn't get in
9:51
the top 10 globally and it wouldn't get in the top three in
9:54
Europe. So projects, getting bigger,
9:57
there is a massive rise of digitization massively.
10:01
And of course, there's a huge drive to NetZero.
10:02
Now, to me, those Now, mix on top of a situation that you've
10:08
pointed out that they're all laid anywhere, really calls to
10:11
change about how you manage these programs because I think
10:14
they are so big and complex. Now, a new approach that the
10:18
kind of the big learning, which we can get onto on the cross for
10:20
others, maybe he's in your approach, but to your point,
10:23
yeah, every major program in the world seems to have problems.
10:26
There's something going wrong. Either in the delivery or in the
10:30
sea say, I mean I suspect that it's know.
10:32
A lot of it has to do with how much, you know how you asked.
10:34
Hey, you Estimate these things to start with and it's been
10:36
pretty, the more surely, the more complex of project is the
10:40
more difficult. It is to say before you started
10:42
with any kind of a hope of accuracy how much it's going to
10:44
cost to do. Ya mean, Kiki fundamental lesson
10:49
in Cross Rome was setting a singular end date and quite a
10:55
visible Public Funding envelope. They said December 18 and
11:01
fourteen point eight billion years in advance and made Very,
11:05
very public. So when Terri Morgan who I love
11:08
and there's the so go, wonderful man.
11:11
Terry when Terry said on time on budget, he was on a singular end
11:15
date and inform the envelope. And and I think the big big
11:18
learning, the big learning Ida crossrail is do not set singular
11:23
end dates, and mmm love, think about more windows of
11:26
uncertainty. And I've been very lucky.
11:28
Here's the good news, I would have been very lucky to look at
11:32
almost every major program in the world actually apart from
11:35
Whistling in China or Russia. I'm looked at that.
11:37
But now, nobody is doing across rural.
11:40
Everybody is in Windows of time and windows of money.
11:44
And if look at Mark thirst and on edge, just to done a very,
11:47
very good job. You know, he's no longer has a
11:49
singular end date of whatever it is 20:27 or whatever.
11:52
He talks about Windows, I think they have a window of funding as
11:55
well in which I don't fully understand.
11:58
So I'll to your point, I think the main catalytic problem is
12:03
underestimation, And not recognizing the downside risk,
12:07
but I think austrians changed all that.
12:09
I think. Now you look at every major
12:11
program, nobody is heroically driving for.
12:14
I'm going to, I'm going to Australia for them seeing all
12:16
the major cities in Australia, over the next 22 weeks, and none
12:20
of them. Then we're going to open it on
12:22
the night of December, 20, 2008, you know?
12:25
Yes, it seems like a good idea when you're a decade away.
12:27
That isn't it? But I can see it will soon
12:29
become a kind of millstone around your neck.
12:31
Yeah, but they don't know the art of major program management.
12:34
Is how you Maintain that tension.
12:36
If you've got a few more like a window of time or money and
12:39
early and late or low and high, and there's a window of
12:42
uncertainty, the art of project management is to drive the
12:48
team's to the front edge and progressively narrower the
12:52
windows and for me that's the thing.
12:55
The crossrail really unfortunately didn't didn't God
12:58
we got totally wrong. I mean I recognize a bit of a
13:01
kind of a Bailey very basic analogy from my own world.
13:05
Their own deadlines, you know, some writers, when you're
13:08
commissioning them, you know, they're late and they're always
13:11
late. So you give them a fake
13:12
deadline, but after you're done, argued work, and in for a bit,
13:15
they start to Twig that you're giving them fake deadlines and
13:18
so the fake deadlines lips lip as well.
13:19
So how do you avoid that happening in that world?
13:22
Where, you know, you're telling the team basically that this is
13:25
the tape and you're telling the world that this is the date.
13:27
So if you have this idea that you are progressively narrowing
13:30
and suddenly the lead, the dead is your commitment to your
13:33
stakeholders in the early. Dead is where you want the team
13:36
to drive two by two perspectives in the public realm.
13:40
Transparency is all 0 and if you don't know, you don't know.
13:44
And I think I think crossrail lost its reputation and your
13:49
reputation is what do you say times?
13:52
What you do? Yeah, then on crossrail, on
13:55
Time, on budget, they lost their reputation.
13:57
So, firstly on the later date, the that's got to be trusted,
14:01
you know, you can't have a false deadline to your to your point,
14:04
you know? So transparency Ultra
14:06
transparency works, even if it's uncomfortable for leaders, on
14:11
the early date on driving the, the team to the early date.
14:15
I'll give you an interesting concept of the really helped us.
14:19
Crossrail was thought to be a very collaborative place.
14:22
You know, everyone, 37 little Parts building, a halt, all very
14:27
collaborative actually values Awards.
14:29
We went a step further and cross.
14:30
For all, we went from collaboration to morning the
14:33
hall. Now, what's the difference?
14:35
Curren and owning the whole means that everybody's invested
14:40
in everybody's success or failure.
14:42
So for example, I used to think of these things as a battle on
14:45
risk, you know, from other delivery into operation.
14:49
I now realize that was completely flawed.
14:52
This is much more like an obstacle course.
14:54
Tough Mudder, where if somebody gets stuck like an operator or
14:59
Safety Authority, or a fire engineer, or the regulator, if
15:03
somebody gets stuck in the mud, There's no point everybody else
15:07
foraging on because we got to go back and get Bill on Mary and
15:11
we've all got to cross the line haul together.
15:14
So for me this was a profound shift in Cross Royal to talk
15:19
Ultra transparency publicly on the backend downside debt and
15:25
drive the internal team to own the whole by that the operator
15:31
and the delivery teams had to agree on.
15:35
What the requirements were. And they the problem of the
15:38
Baton person and Allergy is the operator just can't get all of
15:41
it and you know there's a mismatch in what they want.
15:44
They want bells and whistles, all this safety, press on the
15:46
fire brigade, want something else.
15:48
So I think this, these are quite interesting concepts of how do
15:52
you maintain the tension in that windows?
15:55
That were talking? And I think they're both have to
15:57
happen transparency for the public, owning the whole for the
16:01
internal. And I think there's something
16:03
quite interesting in this and Our contractual forms.
16:06
No, the NEC. And I'll governance that they
16:09
don't really support this. I think that's another part of
16:12
the cultural Story. How did nobody detected like
16:15
kind of historical understanding those projects, got bigger and
16:17
more complicated. You ended up with these kind of
16:20
lots of multiple contracts because they were sort of
16:22
considered to be who, you know, sort of bite-sized manageable
16:25
chunks rather than kind of wrapping the whole thing in some
16:28
huge and incontrolable thing. So that, you know, the that sort
16:33
of fragmentation was done on purpose.
16:35
Purpose with the intent of making the whole thing more
16:37
manageable. But actually, but maybe in some
16:39
respects, you know, achieve the opposite, who are only a few
16:43
that decision was very cogent, because after the global
16:46
financial crisis 2010 2011, the market was fragmented.
16:50
Everybody needs everybody needed a every mouth needed to be fed
16:54
if you think about 2012, We were part of the Olympics after the
16:59
Olympics. There is nothing.
17:00
So, every month had to be fed. So breaking into 37 jigsaw
17:05
pieces, not a bad idea, right? It might take about what went
17:08
wrong. If you drew like a 2x2 Grid in
17:11
your head and on the bottom axis was complexity low to high and
17:17
on this axis was the need for the client to coordinate from
17:21
low to high. I think the problem uncrossed
17:24
real was 37 contracts. Inevitably created huge
17:28
complexity. So on my, in my 2x2 grid, it was
17:31
on the right hand side yet. Highly complex for me.
17:35
Crossville should have been in the top right-hand corner.
17:38
Hi the coordinating. So, if you've got a lot of
17:41
complexity crossrail should have been the conductor of the
17:45
orchestra in quite deep, in intrusion, into the sequence of
17:52
how things were done. Corporal didn't do that across.
17:55
Rural was Low coordination. So it was kind of in the my 2x2
18:00
grid crossrail was in the bottom right-hand corner, highly
18:04
complex, but generally law coordination because they
18:08
thought the supply chain would work it out for themselves.
18:11
It didn't it didn't. So the message for me is to
18:16
point first of all, don't don't try to complexify it.
18:20
You know, try to stay low complexity.
18:23
But if you do have to go to High complexity from various Ins
18:27
become, highly coordinating. And that's kind of one of the
18:29
big lessons, the more complex, it becomes the more than need
18:34
for alignment and coordination from the center and its back to
18:38
kind of, you know, theories of entropy.
18:40
And I've said that you've got like the project getting bigger
18:43
drive to 90 and huge digitization, those Mega Trends
18:47
are producing entropic on end, Tropic things in programs.
18:51
I they will tend to chaos without some control and I think
18:56
CrossFit I think this is well documented really did not call
19:01
it a lie. I give you the most fantastic,
19:03
practical example of this 37 contracts and at least half of
19:07
them had fire engineering serious, fire, engineering
19:11
requirements. And, you know, you know, serious
19:13
headers and now again, we had one company a tier 2, called
19:17
Protec excellent company. Brilliant.
19:20
The only had 250 engineers and they pretty much had the market
19:23
in people certified approve, London Fire.
19:26
Brigade, fire. All those 50 Engineers were of
19:29
Protech were working for 20 of the tier ones, but the client
19:34
couldn't see it. So they were being pulled from
19:37
Pillar To Post. Yeah.
19:39
So one of the things that we did was we started to coordinate
19:42
project and people either scarce resources, for a centrally
19:45
coordinated, IE Paddington first, then Whitechapel instead
19:50
of them all not fighting for trying to collaborate together.
19:54
So that's a now to do that, of course.
19:56
You interfere in the commercial relationship with the tier 1s
20:00
and the risk transfer. And I think this is a, this is
20:03
like a really fundamental Point. As complexity went up showed, so
20:08
did the need for the client to coordinate and one of the big
20:12
reasons for the collapse of cross Rome and the emergence of
20:15
a huge black hole was the Unseen effort that the supply chain was
20:21
having to make that the client couldn't see.
20:24
I mean yeah I'll give you a mind-blowing.
20:26
I'm stat, he's a mind-blowing start run, all of these
20:29
contracts had we called it outstanding Works list element,
20:35
outstanding works, though. It was a punch list every
20:37
contract, I'd like a punch list, you know, there were things for
20:40
defects. You get back to you later.
20:43
I'm your material non-compliances things that
20:47
weren't quite right dense indoors.
20:48
Cracked window opens. You know thought also that man's
20:51
natural snagging list. In my first six months of
20:54
crossrail, the new technical, director added up how many they
20:58
were in the hole. There were 75,000 things missing
21:04
in Cross from and when you looked at them, a lot of defects
21:08
are normal things, but a lot of them thousands, tens of
21:11
thousands were sitting on element outstanding Works lists
21:16
because they were depending on somebody else or maybe three
21:18
other people. So the real question is hold on,
21:22
Mark you On the board. Why didn't you just have a
21:24
simple measure of outstanding Works list where we didn't?
21:27
I mean that's a fundamental mistake.
21:30
We weren't measuring. We thought we were in 97 percent
21:33
complete. We were 60% Complete because
21:36
there were 75,000 things off the books that you didn't deserve
21:40
it. Individual contracts new, you
21:42
know? Yes, you're Whitechapel.
21:44
You knew you had 7,000 and But nobody out of the hole back to
21:49
this concept of owning the whole.
21:52
And, you know, the minute we realized there were 75,000
21:55
things to do then that became very serious.
21:58
Yes, absolutely. But systemic risk, I mean that's
22:01
like the financial crash. It seems like all those
22:02
individual Banks, not realizing how much on the hook or the
22:05
other bank don't want. I'll give you another one about
22:09
crossrail in terms of risk. You might say this but Mark you
22:13
are the best in the world and you're on the board.
22:15
Mark, what were you doing? What are you idiots doing?
22:18
Well, where was your risk for us as well?
22:20
Actually, interestingly, these risks were all in our risk
22:23
registers and we had the most pristine risk process.
22:27
We had four late for layers of assurance, the best in the
22:31
world. We spend millions and tens of
22:33
Millions on Assurance, we had Checkers and, you know,
22:36
verifiers. So what went wrong?
22:38
Well to me, cross for a lived in the house of It was like
22:43
traveling on the desert and you can see the mountain right, the
22:45
blue mountain range your head. Then you knew that mountain
22:48
range was going to be difficult to climb but on your walk.
22:52
In the desert you would write yourselves ever, Fantastical
22:55
risk, mitigation. So in the house of risk cross,
22:59
real would recognize outstanding Works list, but we write a
23:03
mitigation that was never actually happened.
23:07
It was something like we were all we have a supply chain
23:09
meeting where we'll ask them about.
23:11
Out how they're doing, will standardize something over here.
23:14
They were living in the house of risk putting their effort into
23:16
thinking. If that occurred, what would we
23:19
do? They should have really lived in
23:21
the house of Intervention, which was intervening in what they
23:25
would intuitively. Know was a problem.
23:28
So obviously early in 2015 16 somebody should have started to
23:34
measure the agglomerating accumulating group of
23:38
outstanding works but they didn't, they kept it in there.
23:41
Registers, so this idea of how do you intervene rather than
23:48
just write? A risk is one of them, big, big
23:51
lessons and I'm going to Australia.
23:53
And this is one of the key themes because they're the same
23:56
as crossrail. I've got every Bell and whistle
23:58
on early warning of assurance. But cross for the ended up
24:02
within a four billion, pound black hole all because it was
24:08
masked by fantastic or mitigation.
24:11
Ins. They have the right.
24:13
They have the right color project tools in place to they
24:15
have the right, you know, where they went.
24:16
When they were obviously weren't measuring the right things or
24:18
not in not in aggregate anyway. Well, I think they did.
24:22
They had they had the state-of-the-art know, they had
24:24
bad, the other state-of-the-art, let me the world's moved on a
24:27
bit. Now, if you go to like Oxford
24:29
and there's a lot of AI technology and now but you know
24:33
they have the whole thing that they were the first people to
24:35
put them in, they had business in your power, user type of
24:40
stuff on their data. No, I think what happened is the
24:44
leadership team created an environment on the board that I
24:49
was part of where failure was not an option.
24:52
Another fundamental lesson that I learned through this to
24:56
succeed means, you have to fill. Failure is an intrinsic part of
25:01
success. So in an environment where you
25:04
couldn't fail People started to not measure the important stuff,
25:10
is it? Hargreaves law or after?
25:13
Dig it out for the law. When a measure becomes a Target,
25:16
it no longer becomes useful. So across rural, the measure
25:21
Terry Morgan would use is a percentage completion.
25:24
There was a value is valid, it was in place since 2012 and it
25:28
was basically measuring cubes of concrete and wire terminations.
25:31
It was the physical state of completion and it became the
25:35
measure and The in the last board meeting before it all
25:38
collapsed crossrail was 97.1%. Complete it wasn't.
25:43
It was 60%. So that is the classic thing
25:45
where everybody's got the wrong measure.
25:48
The became a Target. Yeah, and that was partly
25:51
because they were measuring the wrong things and perhaps because
25:56
they underestimated the scale of the kind of integration side of
26:00
it to that that I mean, the guys with the guys are in there goes,
26:04
our civil engineers and they are guess.
26:05
So they've thought that digging the tunnels is going to be the
26:07
hard bit, the real, another Insight I'd give you would be
26:12
the the guts of the machine where okay it was more.
26:16
It wouldn't be fair to say this is all a bunch of civil
26:19
engineers, trying to wise to vote more likely that at the
26:22
very, very top including the board that I was part of we were
26:27
not curious enough, we just weren't curious enough and we
26:30
might have maybe had a bit of a heroic style.
26:34
I think the modern the modern project leader We'll manage
26:37
Windows about like we said for the mud, the modern project
26:40
leader will be comfortable with uncertainty and gaps and will be
26:43
curious and somebody could have asked the question, couldn't
26:46
they look? Well um how are we going to
26:50
integrate as many? I'll give you a great, a great
26:52
example of this in our safety case.
26:56
There are two hundred thousand documents in our city.
26:58
Guest 200,000 here, you can imagine what they are and if
27:01
they build up like a pyramid and the end in one final City case
27:05
like a pyramid Paul. Classic system engineering
27:07
career really, very, very good. Unfortunately, if the does you
27:11
got to the top of the mountain, nobody's ever, thought about how
27:15
you would actually integrate the real way in testing it all of
27:19
the effort has gone into the the structure of the poem in this
27:24
virtual pyramid rather than thinking.
27:27
Well how are we gonna prove that these things aren't right?
27:31
You know and there's many many examples I just like we thought
27:34
that the software The trend management software might need
27:39
45. Jobs, you know, upgrades between
27:43
Siemens and Bombardier, there might be four or five hops, it's
27:47
been 70 or 80. We've climbed, we've climbed the
27:49
software Mountain, 10 meters at a time.
27:53
Tiny incremental steps, keeping everybody in harmony.
27:56
It was back back to this idea of in high complexity, the client
28:00
needs to be highly coordinating. I mean, that there's something
28:03
fundamental about, you know, the more complex, these systems are
28:06
more complex only and they, you know, complex systems go wrong
28:09
and complex ways I guess. And so they need a lot more
28:11
testing. We need to verify check.
28:14
If you buy the concept of the fact that we should try and
28:18
minimize complexity, let's just hold that, right?
28:21
It's a good idea to minimize complexity, simplify on
28:25
crossrail, since Adam was allowed having three different
28:29
signaling systems, was always going to be complex.
28:31
It's the most complex in the world.
28:33
There's no way around it. It's it was always going to be
28:37
off the scale. So for me, that meant Aunt.
28:41
Everything else had to become simpler to leave you with the
28:45
core of what was always going to be an epic integration Challenge
28:50
on cost roll. Unfortunately, he's another key
28:54
lesson. The client design in 2014, 15
28:59
was running late. The client was doing the basic
29:01
design and then the individual contractors were going to do the
29:04
detailed design. This is like mechanical
29:06
electrical equipment. The fire alarm, do you know all
29:08
the details that and the client does I was running late, but
29:12
unfortunately, instead of pausing the program around 2014,
29:16
15 to take a breath finish, the client design to allow the
29:21
supply chain to modularize their design, make it simple, you
29:24
know, build it in a factory. Bring it to side and plug it in.
29:28
They didn't they? They commence the stage of
29:31
detailed design before the client ID really finish theirs.
29:35
And that was because they knew they were trying to get to this
29:38
endless really tough ended. So as early as 2014, Teen.
29:41
There was massive stress and program and back to complexity
29:46
that that was, that was a big mistake because the minute
29:49
everything started to get complex, it even started to come
29:52
back into the signaling system because it's on India, it's a
29:56
single integrated system. So what should happen is in
29:59
2014, every should have recognized that the signaling
30:02
was going to be really hard. We must modularize everything
30:05
else which would have meant, probably a nine months, a bridge
30:09
in 2014 15. It would have taken a brave
30:12
person though in 2014 15 to say that they couldn't recover it.
30:17
Yes, yes, interesting. Guys in it.
30:19
So it's a bit of a lesson for projects is to identify the
30:22
places that you cannot be. There are irredeemably, complex
30:27
and identify those. And then try and simplify
30:29
everything else around them as much as you can.
30:31
That's performed. I mean, you said that, I think
30:34
might be one of the most important lessons in the whole
30:37
of nature programs in the world. Which of course, the audience.
30:40
Street learned for years, you know this is like a thing that
30:44
the oil industry and the IT industry have been doing for
30:47
years where they modularize what they can and they they they know
30:52
some things are going to be like a moon landing, you know?
30:55
But we know crossrail. We've ended up with Incredible
30:59
complexity in things like the, The Lighting systems of the, the
31:03
station's, you know, really complex stuff when it's just
31:07
written a bit lower. Yes, interesting things but
31:11
interesting those told him about no come come to the time it took
31:13
a bit about you and your kind of background and your your career.
31:19
You sound like you sound like you're from County Durham.
31:21
Oh, very good. Very, very on Adam Cole - Sun
31:30
literally and my dad worked down the mines pit Village called Ash
31:33
winning in Durham. So I grew up in a you know,
31:38
classic Working class family. My dad was a miner, their minds
31:43
were in the great, you know, but this is the kind of guy was born
31:46
in 65. So my dad went all through the
31:50
tumultuous times in the mines, right up to the, the end of it
31:53
all and during, which is kind of like 70s and, you know, as you
31:57
know, in the mines and engineers and important things for my dad,
32:00
always wanted me to be an engineer.
32:02
So, I became an engineer went to Newcastle Polly, didn't really
32:05
do very well. In my, a levels, went to the
32:07
polyfill electrical engineer. Was probably a bit of a late
32:10
starter academically did quite well.
32:12
The poly became joined the electricity industry.
32:16
So I spent the first kind of ten years of my career kind of 85 to
32:21
87 to 97 in the utility industry.
32:25
Engineering projects. I mean Margaret Thatcher is not
32:29
quite my politics but you did do one thing for me but she
32:32
privatize the electricity industry and Berkshire Hathaway.
32:36
Warren Buffett's company bought But leap not electric which
32:41
opened up the possibility of international travel and getting
32:44
away from the regulated wires business.
32:46
So I went in the non reg business ended up in Railways.
32:52
Recently read put the power supply in for the southern
32:56
region. Working for Andy Mitchell.
32:59
Went to Westinghouse signals ended up running Westinghouse
33:02
signals, which was part of inventors, which is a bigger
33:05
signaling company. The world seems bored and vents.
33:08
So I left re signal the Jubilee line, then I went to Australia
33:15
and I run all of the public transportation in Melbourne.
33:18
Big state of Victoria Australia. Well, kind of it was kind of a
33:22
bit my Wilderness years really. I'd left invents this because
33:25
Siemens came in, I done said, work for Talus on the Jubilee
33:29
line and I guess I was at the time in my career that I
33:33
realized that, I wanted to be a more general leader and I didn't
33:37
have much operational experience.
33:38
Audience, you know, I so I went The Treasure of Oz was just, you
33:42
know, new jurisdiction and it was a great place to live and
33:45
you got got my hands on the whole of the state transport
33:48
Network. You know, the trams, the trains,
33:50
the buses, the furries that was just fantastic.
33:52
So for five years then I was running all of their public
33:57
transportation working for the government time in the Private
34:00
Industry and timing public sectors important.
34:02
You know, because you just don't have preconceptions about what
34:05
the private sectors like other public sectors.
34:06
Like, but you really want to do both nothing.
34:09
So I went to the government of Australia, then opportunity came
34:13
up to run the tube, you know if you're a railway person running
34:16
London Underground so Mike Brown, invited me back to run
34:20
London Underground, which I thought was like the best job in
34:23
the world, you know, running the tube and then I was quite happy
34:28
until in 2017. I was on the board of cross
34:32
Royal and pretty much from Led 17.
34:35
It was obvious to me that there was real problems in this.
34:38
Program. And again, Lessons Learned we
34:41
probably should have acted six months earlier than we did.
34:44
But ultimately, you know, I was quite sad to leave the tube
34:49
really but but, you know, the the prospect of delivering
34:52
Elizabeth on and now obviously, that's a backfield, my job, the
34:56
other great guy called Andy Lord, I was always going to
34:59
leave when we open the Elizabeth mine.
35:00
I think we've had a good three and a half years doing that.
35:03
And now for me, I'm interesting heading back to the utility
35:06
sector where next well I'm gonna become the sea.
35:08
You of sgn who are one of Britain's for Gas Distribution
35:13
Company that's selling guest Network Star Wars, isn't it?
35:15
Yeah, well I'm Scotland. The SEC is is actually Scotia.
35:18
So it says she's got all the Scotland and Southern England
35:22
and the reason for that is one way of Learners, you going back
35:24
to utilities Mark? Well, it's a good business, big
35:27
scale, business operationally. But the attraction for me is
35:30
energy conversion Drive. Nancy were the hydrogen question
35:35
is so for me, What I've liked most of my career was solving
35:39
really complicated puzzles. You know, so I think getting
35:43
back into energy is just quite cool.
35:46
So I'm really looking forward to if I'm still going to keep my
35:48
hands fingers in major programs. And I've learned so much out of
35:52
crossrail, I really think the case is there for change in how
35:55
we manage major programs. Really think it's there.
35:58
So will you I mean, it's like, well, that be, you know, part of
36:01
what you do, do you feel that the sort of driver
36:04
responsibility to try and kind of pass on the message?
36:06
It's because I think Another thing I do talk quite a lot of
36:09
people about lessons. They learned from projects and
36:12
they always seem to be quite a lot of them are quite profound.
36:15
Well, I think about me as a person engineer project manager
36:19
and what I'm really here for me. I've enjoyed doing these jobs
36:21
and they've been growing all enjoyed being the CEO of sgn.
36:24
But really what I think I'm here for is exactly that.
36:26
I don't think I'm here for. How did a working-class kid from
36:30
a privilege in Durham get to where I am?
36:34
There's a bit of talent there but there's a hell of a lot of
36:36
look. I think my purpose is to make
36:39
sure we are representation in engineering of everybody and
36:43
fundamentally where we started this conversation.
36:46
I think the world of major programs is getting
36:48
exponentially more complex, which brings a new leadership
36:52
style. So yeah, the thing I'd really
36:53
like to focus on outside of kind of my work is, how do we create
36:59
a new way of leading major programs and engineering.
37:03
What kind of leader? What sort of person do you?
37:05
What kind of qualities do you need to be a leader in that kind
37:08
of increasingly complex, environment person could work
37:11
from Andrew McNaughton that I've been contributing to your, for
37:14
the i.c.e. on systems thinking and because they know, first of
37:19
all, what it isn't? It isn't the heroic leadership
37:21
style of one person at the top knowing everything.
37:23
That's not, not the right and wrong.
37:24
So the modern leader will be curious.
37:29
Will understand uncertainty will understand that there are some
37:32
Things that are unknowable but we'll work hard to minimize
37:36
that. The leader will be.
37:38
Somebody who is an environment is created, where there is no
37:43
fear the environment where truth to power where my big learning
37:48
across rural. One of them is even the most
37:51
epic problems we got. As soon as it became
37:53
transparent, the team, we had the convening power and the Epic
37:59
horse power of the team could solve it.
38:01
The problem was surfacing the You.
38:03
So leave us to the future will be incomplete and somewhere.
38:06
As they will understand that there are gaps and they will
38:09
create environments where those gaps are spotted and people were
38:13
collegiately owning the whole. So this kind of leadership style
38:17
is it's kind of a bit different, really?
38:20
It's more people who can convene and align people to
38:24
breakthroughs, rather than a singular person.
38:28
Heroically leading the charge, I'm being a bit kind of
38:31
stereotypical. So listening is important on.
38:35
I think, you know, you talk about the archetypal, modern Lee
38:37
modern project leader, they'll be good, active listeners, and
38:41
they will be able to web sent their ego from The Challenge.
38:46
There's, this is quite profound to me the days of egocentric
38:50
leadership Grover. And I don't mean, I don't mean
38:53
people were bullies and aggressive.
38:54
I just mean the process of absenting yourself from a
38:58
problem and become inconsiderate.
39:00
And thinking of everybody sings and ultimately The boss is there
39:03
to make a decision? Ultimately, I was the CEO how to
39:07
make the decision but I'd rather an informed decision that came
39:11
from a sense of consensus and everybody looked at a 360.
39:14
The trick is, how do you have how in that in type of
39:17
environment? How do you stop procrastination?
39:19
Which goes back to living in the house of intervention rather
39:22
than House of risk. Absolutely.
39:25
Yes, yes, absolutely. In there are more dismal
39:27
auditions have more decisions to be taken more quickly.
39:30
The more complex Things become But this is talk about how, you
39:36
know, the pandemic might have changed well kind of combination
39:39
of pandemic in climate change. I suppose it's changing people's
39:42
Mobility patterns. Maybe people will be moving
39:44
around less and they'll be more digitally connected rather than
39:47
kind of physically connected to think that.
39:49
What does that does that make a difference too?
39:52
Well to project La Crosse world that have already been done?
39:54
And to think like a chess to the hostel in the part 1?
39:57
Well, no doubt, no doubt there's been a disruption as no, no
40:00
doubt, I think a positive disruption or people.
40:02
Going to be help healthier and happier by having a better
40:06
work-life balance. But but for me, I still believe
40:10
in must transportation. And the agglomerating affecting
40:13
crossrail will produce 42 billion pounds of economic
40:16
benefit. You look at wallet, she took a
40:17
bullet or in your work, what's happening?
40:19
Well it's not for me, they'll undoubtedly be a delay.
40:23
You know it'll there's a slug Something's Happened, you know,
40:26
in the next two to three years, but we've gotta cross role for a
40:29
design life of 120 years but it'll be here in 250.
40:32
Yes. I mean, you know, been in 200
40:34
years time, I mean, who knows what I did, but I do know that
40:39
the cross rail tunnels will exist.
40:41
What about the kind of leveling up?
40:42
Question wouldn't believe been better spent kind of in small
40:45
doses, all around the country instead of one big dollop in
40:49
that I'm young. So a majority you know I know I
40:53
know buddy. Nobody cares more about where I
40:56
come from the me, you know, and I'm very proud but I'm also
41:02
understand this. And the only reason crossed real
41:04
can get built is the densification of activity.
41:09
And that's why Crossroad produces 42 billion pounds of
41:11
real economic benefit. Also London, London creates 25%
41:17
of the UK's GDP but more fundamentally in Cross Rome,
41:22
75,000 people worked on it and we think at least 40 or 50,000
41:26
and never came to London. And, you know, the signs are
41:29
manufactured in the Isle of Wight, the doors came from
41:32
Cheshire. Sure, the drones were men and
41:34
Darby 60 or 70% of it came from small to medium Enterprises
41:40
outside of London in the UK. But for me, the narratively
41:45
people have got to understand that the economic generator of
41:48
the Elizabeth line is for the whole country, particularly for
41:51
London, Southeast peaceful country and secondly, building
41:55
spending 20 billion quid billions went into local
41:59
economies. So I'd know I Spy That's not to
42:04
say, we shouldn't have great transportation in the north and
42:06
you know, they're like the transparent upgrades really
42:08
fantastic program and the latest work on buses in Manchester
42:12
looks fantastic. But in major programs coming
42:15
out, I really hope that we get on the size while.
42:17
See, you know, I really hope that and when size won't gets
42:20
built it'll benefit the Suffolk Coast but I'm sure whoever
42:25
builds it will will be a huge, huge pipeline in.
42:29
And I think that's why, by the way, Andy Byford is such a
42:32
Fantastic, commissioner for London and I really hope she
42:37
gets a sustainable Capital deal because a vibrant London is
42:41
essential and that's coming from a working class.
42:45
Boy from Adam pit villager. I understand that a vibrant
42:48
London is absolutely essential. Yes, there's a sort of, there's
42:52
a polarity developing in the kind of debate about everything
42:56
everywhere isn't there, which is kind of damaging, really?
42:58
It's not either, or it's both isn't it, the kind of who knows
43:02
together. And what kind of mold and we all
43:04
report saying? Well, that was fascinating, I
43:08
really enjoyed to. Thank you.
43:09
Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your
43:11
time today. Thanks to mark for taking time
43:19
out to join, Andy and conversation and to you for
43:21
listening to this podcast for extra content from Mark.
43:24
Look out for the Autumn edition of apm's project Journal, which
43:27
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43:30
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