Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Screens, Kids & the Hijacked Brain: Dr Wayne Warburton on Beating Screen Addiction

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Screens, Kids & the Hijacked Brain: Dr Wayne Warburton on Beating Screen Addiction · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Doctor Wayne Warburton is a professor of developmental psychology at
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: mcquarie University and he's also a registered psychologist. His research
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: centers on issues related to media use, aggression and behavioral
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: addictions like screen disorders. He's the co author of the
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: books Growing Up, Fast and Furious and the Importance of
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Media Literacy, and of several statements by international panels of
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: experts on topics around media impacts on young people. Wayne's
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  Speaker 1: done some great work with some commercial TV stations including
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Channel seven, as well as having a really touching Australian
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  Speaker 1: story on the ABC that followed two great teenage boys
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  Speaker 1: who are struggling with screen disorder as he worked on
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  Speaker 1: them with an intervention program. And today on the Happy
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  Speaker 1: Families podcast, we talk about his research and the ways
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  Speaker 1: that what he's discovered through empirical data collection can help
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  Speaker 1: us to make our families do better around this endemic
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  Speaker 1: and never endingly challenging screen issue. Stay with us. Hello,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Real Parenting Solutions
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  Speaker 1: every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. My name's
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  Speaker 1: doctor Justin Colson and Way and it's such a delight
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  Speaker 1: to have you on the podcast. I've wanted to talk
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  Speaker 1: to you here for such a long time and we
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  Speaker 1: finally made it happen.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, it's wonderful to be here justin thanks for
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: the chat. And this is something that's of great interest
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  Speaker 2: to so many Australian families. You know, when I go
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  Speaker 2: to school, so many parents come up and say, this
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  Speaker 2: is like the big issue at our house.
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  Speaker 1: As parents, we know that this stuff's bad for our kids,
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  Speaker 1: but it's so hard to effectively navigate it and have
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  Speaker 1: the conversations. So my question is really vague and nebulous.
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  Speaker 1: I guess I'm just generally asking why is this so hard?
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  Speaker 1: It's hard like no other thing that parents have ever
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  Speaker 1: encountered seems to be.
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  Speaker 2: I think it's hard because the products that we use
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  Speaker 2: are designed to be addictive. And I don't mean that
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  Speaker 2: in this kind of handwaving way. The people who make
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  Speaker 2: them they use neuroscience and they design their products so
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  Speaker 2: that they engage the brain in a way that you
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  Speaker 2: see it engage in other sorts of addictions. And when
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  Speaker 2: you see the changes of the brain, they're the same
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  Speaker 2: as the ones you see with drug addiction and other
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  Speaker 2: types of addiction. That's why they make the products, and
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  Speaker 2: just to make it even more difficult. Once they build
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  Speaker 2: in all of these things that kind of keep the
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  Speaker 2: brain's reward system going and disable the sort of natural
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  Speaker 2: breaks on behavior in the brain, and building all the
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  Speaker 2: things we know from gambling and neuroscience. They then have
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  Speaker 2: an AI that monitors every user in real time and
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  Speaker 2: use as the information that they get from that device
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  Speaker 2: to decide what you're going to see. If that AI
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  Speaker 2: thinks your attention is waning, then they're going to give
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  Speaker 2: you a pop up, a banner or something on the
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  Speaker 2: game that's going to be irresistible to you that just
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  Speaker 2: keeps you at the screen because they work on what's
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  Speaker 2: called the attention economy, which is monetizing your attention, and
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  Speaker 2: it is not a good business model if people don't
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  Speaker 2: spend a lot of time at the screen. The business
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  Speaker 2: model only works if they have you at the screen
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  Speaker 2: for long periods of time, and the best way to
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  Speaker 2: do that and to stay competitive is to use addictive technology.
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  Speaker 2: So it's not the fall of kids, it's not the
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  Speaker 2: fault of parents, you know. This is just stuff that's
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  Speaker 2: designed to be addictive, and that's what makes it so hard.
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  Speaker 2: For all of us to leave it aside.
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  Speaker 1: What happens when the pin goes off, or when the
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  Speaker 1: phone rings, or when you're scrolling through that Instagram or
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  Speaker 1: TikTok feed and you see something that kicks off the
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  Speaker 1: cascade of neurotransmitters that pull you in.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to do this on two levels and
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  Speaker 2: try not to confuse everybody. On one level, you know,
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  Speaker 2: your brain is wide up to capture particular sounds and
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  Speaker 2: colors and things like that. And so if something that
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  Speaker 2: we're hardwired to get our attention gets our attention, then
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  Speaker 2: sorts of brains are registered site and the sound kind
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  Speaker 2: of pull us in. But at another level, it's also
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  Speaker 2: linked to a reward because you hear that sound and
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  Speaker 2: you know, oh, this could mean I'm getting another like
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  Speaker 2: this could mean that there's another upgrade for my game.
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  Speaker 2: This means something else cool it's happening, So I better
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  Speaker 2: attend to my phone and get that reward. And I
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  Speaker 2: think one of the key things about the sorts of
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  Speaker 2: screen products that we use is that they engage a
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  Speaker 2: part of the brain called the limbic system, where we
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  Speaker 2: know we process rewards and we feel things, and you know,
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  Speaker 2: we have parts of the fight or flight system, and
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  Speaker 2: everything that happens is kind of automatic. We don't have
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  Speaker 2: any control over it. And that's the part of the brain.
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  Speaker 2: It's mostly active. When you're reeling through those tick cock
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  Speaker 2: clips or playing a very repetitive game, or doing a
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  Speaker 2: whole lot of other things. There's not much going on
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  Speaker 2: in terms of heavy thinking and being in conscious control
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  Speaker 2: of your life. And when you look at the part
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  Speaker 2: of your brain where you have attension of focus, where
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  Speaker 2: you manage your behavior, where you're and as your emotions,
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  Speaker 2: where you plan for the future sol of complex problems,
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  Speaker 2: that's at the front of the brain, and a part
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  Speaker 2: of the brain called the prefrontal cortex. That part of
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  Speaker 2: the brain is mostly turned off because you're not really
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  Speaker 2: doing any heavy lifting for any of that sort of stuff.
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  Speaker 2: The device is your memory. The device is providing all
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  Speaker 2: of the stimulation. You don't have to do any of
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  Speaker 2: the hard work. It's doing it for you. And so
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  Speaker 2: in the moment, what that means is that you can't
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  Speaker 2: have less access to those higher functions, which is why
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  Speaker 2: we see those kind of meltdowns when you take the
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  Speaker 2: screen away, or there's difficulty managing emotions when the person's
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  Speaker 2: on the screen, because that part of the brain is
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  Speaker 2: not as active. In the long term, the brainers use
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  Speaker 2: it or lose it organ and when a part of
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  Speaker 2: the brain isn't being used, it just starts to lose
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  Speaker 2: structure and function. And that's what we see in kids
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  Speaker 2: who are addicted to screens compared to other kids. They
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  Speaker 2: have a loss of gray matter, they have a loss
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  Speaker 2: of particularly in that prefrontal cortex where you have those
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  Speaker 2: high functions. You see a change in the density of
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  Speaker 2: the cortex. You see a lot of white matter instability,
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  Speaker 2: which probably means nothing to anyone who's listening, but it's
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  Speaker 2: not a good thing. And it means the brain is
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  Speaker 2: not working particularly efficiently, and it's not connected particularly well.
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  Speaker 2: You know, it's starting to lose function. And because of
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  Speaker 2: those things, you know, the kids that I see her
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  Speaker 2: have a screen addiction. They have trouble managing their emotions,
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  Speaker 2: increasing trouble, increasing trouble managing their behavior, increasing problems with
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  Speaker 2: attention and focus. You know, they're working memory and processing
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  Speaker 2: speed isn't as good. They have more trouble planning for
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  Speaker 2: the future, thinking through the consequences, managing their time. All
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  Speaker 2: those kinds of higher functions because on age, the brain
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  Speaker 2: not doing that stuff when you're in front of the screen.
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  Speaker 2: But the more they do it, the more they lose
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  Speaker 2: that capacity to do it. Of course, it's reversible, right,
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  Speaker 2: you start to use that part of the brain again,
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  Speaker 2: it starts to grow again. So it's not like the
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  Speaker 2: end of the universe, particularly if you're young. But it
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  Speaker 2: kind of explains some of the problems that parents have
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  Speaker 2: in the home. When you take the screen away, you
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  Speaker 2: you try to communicate, or when screen starts to become
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  Speaker 2: a big problem in the house, you know, it's very
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  Speaker 2: difficult to cut through, right, because all of those things
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  Speaker 2: that require that kind of rational conversation they're kind of
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  Speaker 2: out the window because that rational part of the brain,
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  Speaker 2: that's the one that's suffering.
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  Speaker 1: All right, So let's say I'm a parent who doesn't
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  Speaker 1: have a PhD in psychology. I'm not sitting down and
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  Speaker 1: dealing with screen addiction on a daily basis and guiding
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  Speaker 1: people through it. If I'm a regular mum or dad
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  Speaker 1: and my child's screen use is concerning me, how do
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  Speaker 1: I explain to them the things that you've just talked
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  Speaker 1: about in a way that gets through to them. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: how do you convince a thirteen year old, or a
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  Speaker 1: seventeen year old, or frankly, a twenty three year old
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  Speaker 1: that their screen use is concerning, that it's problematic, that
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  Speaker 1: it's compulsive, that's leading to negative outcomes, and it's because
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  Speaker 1: their brain been rewired and hijacked by these multi billion,
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  Speaker 1: multi trillion dollar behemits that have hijacked neuroscience to their
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  Speaker 1: own selfish and mendacious ends.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I love the way you said that, justin Sorry,
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  Speaker 2: I'm just fangirling right now. That's beautifully put. The first
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  Speaker 2: thing I'd say is that you don't have the conversation
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  Speaker 2: when they're kind of in screen world. Of course, you write,
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  Speaker 2: what can they get off the screen? We need to
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  Speaker 2: talk when you're off the screen. It takes a while
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  Speaker 2: your brain to kind of return to normal. So what
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  Speaker 2: you want to do is to have it, you know,
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  Speaker 2: sometime later when everybody is calm and when you're able
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  Speaker 2: to kind of have that rational conversation. And the thing
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  Speaker 2: that I think is most helpful is that you externalize
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  Speaker 2: the problem. And by that I mean the problem is
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  Speaker 2: the screen and the people who make it. It's not
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  Speaker 2: that you're a bad kid, it's not that this is
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  Speaker 2: you behaving in a difficult way. It's because you know,
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  Speaker 2: the screen has become a problem because of the way
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  Speaker 2: people design it. And I think if you come from
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  Speaker 2: that position, it's much easier to have that conversation with
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  Speaker 2: saying what can we do? You know, you and us
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  Speaker 2: against these makers of the screens, manufacturers of the screen,
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  Speaker 2: so that we're kind of resisting what it's trying to
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  Speaker 2: do to you and so many other millions of kids
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  Speaker 2: around the world. You know, what can we do to
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  Speaker 2: be the strong ones who put you back in control
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  Speaker 2: so that you're the one who's calling your shots in
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  Speaker 2: your life and not the screen. Because in the end,
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  Speaker 2: my program is about the parenting is about it's about
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  Speaker 2: putting you back in the driver's seat. I would say
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  Speaker 2: one other thing, I have never seen a kid with
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  Speaker 2: a screen addiction who when I ask them what is
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  Speaker 2: happening in your brain at the time you go to
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  Speaker 2: the screen, I've never heard a different answer that I'm
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  Speaker 2: feeling anxious, I'm feeling stressed, or I've got a negative
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  Speaker 2: emotion like I'm feeling sad or bored or angry, And
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  Speaker 2: when I go to the screen, it always makes me
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  Speaker 2: feel better. It's my go to thing. And I think
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  Speaker 2: part of the conversation has to be, what's another way
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  Speaker 2: that doesn't involve a screen that kind of helps you
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  Speaker 2: when you're feeling anxious, when you're feeling stressed, when you're
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  Speaker 2: feeling those negative emotions. What are other ways that we
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  Speaker 2: can manage this so that the screen's not the go
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  Speaker 2: to thing. I think that's really helpful and anything a
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  Speaker 2: parent can do to be using that front part of
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  Speaker 2: the brain, because if you're doing those opposite things like attending, focusing,
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  Speaker 2: having abstract conversations, talking to people you know in the
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  Speaker 2: offline world, if you are doing things that encourage mindfulness,
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  Speaker 2: if you're doing complex problem solving, all of those things
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  Speaker 2: are engaged in that front brain. And when you're engaging
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  Speaker 2: that front brain, really your conscious self is in control
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  Speaker 2: of your life. It's you who's driving the bus. So
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  Speaker 2: that's what we're trying to do. We want to say,
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  Speaker 2: let's get the screen into the passenger seat and let's
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  Speaker 2: get you back into the driver's seat.
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  Speaker 1: I want to ask you about an issue that's been
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  Speaker 1: occurring in my family around this ongoing screen issue, and
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  Speaker 1: that is that my daughter says this is how I
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  Speaker 1: communicate with my friends, and by reducing or removing screens,
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  Speaker 1: or specifically by removing the social media platforms that are used,
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  Speaker 1: they don't text. Texting is inconvenient, it doesn't work for them,
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  Speaker 1: it's not consistent with how they want to communicate, and
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  Speaker 1: so by removing them from social media platforms, we actually
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  Speaker 1: in some ways sabotage their relationships and leave them feeling isolated.
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  Speaker 1: How do you respond to that?
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  Speaker 2: I think that's a crocload. Do you know why? Because
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  Speaker 2: we have so many ways to communicate the problem with
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  Speaker 2: social media. I mean, there are a lot of problems
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  Speaker 2: with social media. It's an addictive technology, is one. So
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  Speaker 2: we have probably six six to nine percent of people
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  Speaker 2: have a problem with how much they're on it. There
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  Speaker 2: are problems with social comparison, there's problems with mental health,
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  Speaker 2: and the list is very long. Okay, so there are problems,
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  Speaker 2: but we have all of these alternatives. I mean that
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  Speaker 2: we don't have the same problems, for example, just video chatting,
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: face timing, doing all of these other things. There are
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  Speaker 2: so many other ways to communicate. I think as time
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  Speaker 2: goes on, the evidence that screens can cause difficulties becomes
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  Speaker 2: more compelling, and the idea that we should protect younger
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  Speaker 2: brains from them until to a higher age becomes more
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  Speaker 2: convincing to me as time goes on. I don't think
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  Speaker 2: I would have said that five years ago because the
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  Speaker 2: evidence was still coming in. But now the evidence is
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  Speaker 2: kind of in and it's pretty strong.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was ahead of the curve on this one,
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  Speaker 1: and I knew that I was doing it without the evidence.
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  Speaker 1: I knew that it was sort of the eighteen month
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  Speaker 1: to two year thing. But I've been saying for as
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  Speaker 1: long as I can remember three three at the earliest,
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  Speaker 1: like just minimize or delete screens from kids' lives from
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  Speaker 1: at least the age of three. They just don't need them.
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  Speaker 1: All right, Our time's all but up, and this has
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: gone way too fast, and I feel like we should
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: go into partnership and do a podcast every week because
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: I love this discussion so very much. You're on the
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: recorders saying that you're pretty big on family media plans.
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  Speaker 1: You want, you want families to do that, but everyone
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  Speaker 1: needs to be able to work together on this. I've
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: never seen family media plans work. It's not that I'm
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  Speaker 1: against the concept. I just think that it's one of
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: those things where even if you agree on a family
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  Speaker 1: media plan, I reckon within two weeks you're going to
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: be yelling at each other again because the family media
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  Speaker 1: plan isn't being followed. What do you do around family
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  Speaker 1: media plans that makes it work?
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  Speaker 2: The most important thing is that your child has a
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  Speaker 2: sense of agency, so they're part of the process of
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  Speaker 2: putting you to a plan that they think is fair.
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  Speaker 1: So if they just don't think that you're right, which
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  Speaker 1: is the case for so many families that because you're
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: just like no, you.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: Can't reach an agreement, then the plan's never going to
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  Speaker 2: work right right, You need to reach an agreement where
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: everybody is on the same piece of paper. Often writing
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: it down on a piece of paper is helpful, but
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: in it you need to have the kind of the
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: expectations and the things that are going to be the
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: consequences of things. And it might be I'm really happy
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  Speaker 2: for you don't have an hour and a half on screens,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: you know, provided you've done your homework in your chores,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: for example. But if that doesn't happen, then the consequence
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: will be that we're going to turn the internet off
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: in the house for twenty four hours and you control
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: the modem from your wife, you know, the Wi Fi
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: from modem from your phone, for example. And I think
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: that those plans have a lot better chance of success
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: because you've all agreed on this. This is what we've
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: agreed to do, and this is the agreed consequence. And
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: it's not a massive consequence. It's not like I'm taking
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: your phone away forever. It's just we're turning the Internet
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: off for a day. Typically, those plans work a whole
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: lot better.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Professor Wayne Warburton, Professor of Developmental Psychology
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: at mcquarie University, registered psychologist, a researcher who focuses on
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: media use, aggression and behavioral addictions like screen disorders. We
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: could have talked for days. There's so many questions we
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: didn't have time for. We'll definitely do this again and
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: get Wayne back. What a great conversation. The Happy Family's
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. More
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: information and resources to make your family happier are avail
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: at happy families dot com dot ummm
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Hmm